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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a podcast

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Speaker 1: that reimagined citizen as a verb, not a legal status.

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Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can

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Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing

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Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than

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Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen.

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Speaker 1: During this season, we've talked to some of the true

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Speaker 1: tech o g s who are out here trying to

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Speaker 1: promote the narrative that tech can help US citizen. But

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Speaker 1: for this final episode, we really wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: someone who was coming at tech from a completely different perspective, honestly,

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Speaker 1: almost a different world. We were close with R. G.

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Speaker 1: Tongue trust me like I like you thought she was

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Speaker 1: from a different planet, but I've confirmed that the Digital

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Speaker 1: Minister of Taiwan does indeed live here on Earth with us.

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Speaker 1: In a world that already leaves so many behind. We

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Speaker 1: wanted to focus on those who are intentionally kept out

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Speaker 1: of the technological loop, because if I learned anything from

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Crystal, it's that rewiring systems to benefit

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Speaker 1: the many, not the few, well that can still leave

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Speaker 1: out the few. And we can't citizen until everyone can citizen.

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Speaker 1: And that brings me to our first guest of this

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Speaker 1: final episode. I met him back in when I got

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Speaker 1: invited to Detroit by none other than the M I T.

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Speaker 1: Media left. They were collaborating with folks in the city

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Speaker 1: on some kind of design workshop to help with the

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Speaker 1: city's renewal, and I didn't have a lot of history

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Speaker 1: with Detroit. In fact, I had no history with Detroit.

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Speaker 1: So I show up to this gathering maybe it's twenty pool,

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Speaker 1: and it's different types of people. There's techie people who

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Speaker 1: have clearly been doing tech a long time, there's designing people,

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Speaker 1: there's entrepreneurs, and there's detroit people who clearly lived in

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Speaker 1: Detroit a long time. And this eclectic mix of folks

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Speaker 1: was broken out into groups to help solve some problems.

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Speaker 1: Even in that mix of people, even with all that diversity,

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Speaker 1: I just laid out one dude stood out. He had dreadlocks,

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Speaker 1: he had swag, he had a presence that was really undeniable,

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Speaker 1: and that dude was shock a single what's up, bro,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? Man? Super excited to see where we

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Speaker 1: got going today? Me too. I love that the way

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Speaker 1: we hang out is on the podcast This is Good.

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Speaker 1: This is Good. I want to start with you introducing

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Speaker 1: yourself to people out there who might not know much

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Speaker 1: about you. Well, first of all, I just think so

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Speaker 1: much for having me on on. My name is Shaka

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Speaker 1: san Gore. I am a writer. I am a dad,

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Speaker 1: which is like the favorite title I hold. I'm also

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Speaker 1: a tech executive at a company called Trip Accidents based

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Speaker 1: out a Paula. Also, so my official title is head

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Speaker 1: of Diversity, Quality and Inclusiveness. My real title is Director

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Speaker 1: of Dopeness, because that's the only thing that I want

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Speaker 1: to do is do dope stuff with dope people. I

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Speaker 1: love that you. I love the way you introduce yourself

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Speaker 1: and this wide variety of titles, and a while ago

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Speaker 1: in your life, the idea that you would be a

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Speaker 1: tech execut might not have made that list. Just how

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Speaker 1: does that feel right now? It's incredible at this point.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you think back on my journey, you know,

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Speaker 1: a kid growing up in each Troy, growing up in

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Speaker 1: the tough household, and to get caught up in that

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Speaker 1: culture and experience all the horrors that come with it,

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Speaker 1: you know, childhood friend being murder, being robbed, the gunpoint

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Speaker 1: being beat nearly to death, three years later being shot,

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Speaker 1: and then sixteen months after that shooting and tragically causing

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Speaker 1: the man's death and subsequently being sentenced to seventeen and

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Speaker 1: forty years in prison. Yeah, tech probably wasn't the thing

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Speaker 1: that would come to mind for most people. I served

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Speaker 1: a total of nineteen years, seven of those years in

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Speaker 1: solitary confinement. And what a lot of people don't know

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Speaker 1: about my life as they see it now is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of the things really kind of took shape

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Speaker 1: and solitary confinement when I begin to write out a

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Speaker 1: new way of looking at life and kind of giving

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Speaker 1: myself permission to dream big. During my Detroit visit, Shaka's

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Speaker 1: role was as an ambassador to Detroit, but not only that,

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Speaker 1: he was a reminder that any solution has to involve

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Speaker 1: the people closest to the problem, that a city like

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Speaker 1: Detroit wasn't just some blank slate, but have people who

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Speaker 1: have been living there for decades and generations that needed

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Speaker 1: to be included in the process. A year later, Shaka

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Speaker 1: and I would meet again, this time as formal directors

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Speaker 1: fellows at the m I T Media Lab, a program

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Speaker 1: that connected academia to the real world, challenging the notion

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Speaker 1: of what it means to be an expert by bringing

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Speaker 1: together people from all kinds of backgrounds of talking chess,

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Speaker 1: grand masters and movie makers and regenerative gardeners, all to

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Speaker 1: address various pressing issues. Shaka has since written six books,

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Speaker 1: including a memoir about his time in prison. He's actually

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Speaker 1: working on another one right now. In he created the

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Speaker 1: Live in Peace mentorship program and has become a leading

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Speaker 1: voice in criminal justice reform. Today, he continues to work

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Speaker 1: on the ground in Detroit. Shaka's story may seem unique.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's literally been interviewed by Oprah, but his

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Speaker 1: experience is something many Americans have faced. And that's what

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today. What is it like

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Speaker 1: to be a return citizen and our ever changing digital landscape,

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Speaker 1: what happens when we leave an entire population in the dark,

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Speaker 1: and how can we better support them so that we

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Speaker 1: better support all of us. Today, we've got two incredible

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Speaker 1: conversations lined up now back to Shotgun. Because of the

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Speaker 1: title of this show is how to Citizen, and we

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Speaker 1: we take it as a verb. You're a returned citizen,

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Speaker 1: you know you're a member of a community that we

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Speaker 1: often banish from our concept of citizenship. So can you

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Speaker 1: define what a returning or returned citizen is for some

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Speaker 1: of our listeners. You know, when our first came home

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Speaker 1: and I heard that word, I was like, Wow, this

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Speaker 1: feels great, and I was so full of optimism and hopefulness.

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Speaker 1: And what I thought, honestly, what happened is that I

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Speaker 1: would come home and basically confess my sins to my

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Speaker 1: community and say, you know, I really want to get

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Speaker 1: a job, that my dream as a writer. And what

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Speaker 1: I didn't know is that there were so many barriers

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Speaker 1: to re entry. You know, I didn't know that people

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Speaker 1: would hold you hostage to something that had happened nearly

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Speaker 1: two decades ago and say that you're unworthy of employment.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that people would rule you out as

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Speaker 1: being eligible to rent a house or rent an apartment.

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Speaker 1: And it was not only disappointing, it was devastating because

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to become part of a contributing community.

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Speaker 1: So I have that taken away almost immediately, and to

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Speaker 1: run into all these barriers like out of the gate,

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Speaker 1: it really made me think differently about citizenship, and even

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Speaker 1: to this day, I mean, you know, I've been on

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Speaker 1: the eleven years, and there's things that come up that

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Speaker 1: would shock most people when they think about where I'm

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Speaker 1: at this point in my life and the things that

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Speaker 1: I still have to grapple with. But after a while,

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Speaker 1: you get tired, you know, and it wears you down,

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Speaker 1: and you're constantly having to explain to your child, we

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Speaker 1: gotta go around this corner, up this block, down this alley,

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Speaker 1: jump over this fence to get the basic things that

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Speaker 1: comes with being a citizen. And despite that, I still

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Speaker 1: believe that, you know, my my role in American society

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Speaker 1: is one of contributing in a meaningful way to make

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Speaker 1: the world that we live in better. And it's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons I mentor and work with kids and

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Speaker 1: schools um throughout the country. I can't imagine how much

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Speaker 1: catch up you had to play just with technology in

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Speaker 1: terms of how long you were incarcerated. So tell me

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Speaker 1: how long were you incarcerated and what was your technology

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Speaker 1: relationship during that part of your life. Yeah, So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I laughed when I think about technology in prison, because

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Speaker 1: it basically did not exist when I went to prison.

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Speaker 1: You know, our cell phones was like those big cinder

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Speaker 1: blocks so I went in in n and so I

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Speaker 1: came home June twenty two, two thousand ten, one day

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Speaker 1: after my birthday. So it's two decades of just innovation

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Speaker 1: and things had took place while I was inside. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I came home, everything was new, I mean everything,

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Speaker 1: you know, just an email, Like I had never heard

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Speaker 1: of an email, Like, what is this thing that they're

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Speaker 1: talking about? What you need for everything? You need to

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Speaker 1: put in a job application, you know, a resume. I

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Speaker 1: was so ignorant to technology that I used to get

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Speaker 1: into a consistent big ring situation with my then girlfriend

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Speaker 1: at the time because I used to think a word

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Speaker 1: document was the Internet. So every time I had to

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Speaker 1: save something, I would ask her was it okay? Because

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to give the computer of virus. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of funny now when you think about it, but

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Speaker 1: it was a real pain point because I don't think

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Speaker 1: that she quite understood the learning curve that it was

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Speaker 1: literally the equipment of Fred Flintstone walking into an episode

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Speaker 1: of The Jetsons, because that's what prison was. It was

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Speaker 1: his cave like barbaric environment, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I'm in the future where people can talk through screens.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I'm remembering when we first met back in

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Speaker 1: in Detroit. The M I. T. Media Lab had this

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Speaker 1: mission to like help Detroit out. But before my visit,

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Speaker 1: an earlier group had come to the city and you

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Speaker 1: played a key role in vamp on the program, right,

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Speaker 1: So tell me what happened on that trip before you

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Speaker 1: and I met, because I'm pretty sure that my visit

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Speaker 1: was like a lot different than the lab's original plan

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Speaker 1: and those small part thanks to you. What happened is

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Speaker 1: I was invited to this event for my work that

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Speaker 1: I was doing in Detroit around literature and mentoring young people,

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Speaker 1: and they had a group of people in the room

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Speaker 1: that didn't quite look like the Detroitors that I knew.

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Speaker 1: These were people who were transplanted Detroitors. They were just

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Speaker 1: moving in the real estate costs were low, and they

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Speaker 1: were kind of reimagining what the city could look like.

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Speaker 1: And so what they were telling the director then at

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Speaker 1: the time was that, you know, Detroit was a blank

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Speaker 1: slate and that they can pretty much do anything that

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Speaker 1: they wanted to. And I took offense to that, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I thought about my parents, who have been in

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Speaker 1: Detroite ever since they were born. I thought about my aunts,

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Speaker 1: my uncle's, my neighbors, my friends, people who had never

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Speaker 1: left the city, and what the city meant to them,

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Speaker 1: and so I basically stood up. I just said to them,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, this isn't the real Detroit, and

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Speaker 1: if you won't experience the reality trade, I'm willing to

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Speaker 1: take you on a tour. And I took them all

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Speaker 1: throughout the city and every sexy you can imagine. I

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Speaker 1: took them to the areas that had some of the

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Speaker 1: toughest struggles, but also took them to some areas where

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Speaker 1: it was prominent people who had lived there all their

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Speaker 1: lives and contribute greatly to the city. You know. I

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Speaker 1: took them to urban farms, and I took them to

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Speaker 1: Grandma's backyard gardens because I wanted them to see that

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Speaker 1: urban farming wasn't a new thing. And from that experience

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Speaker 1: was born this idea that they were bringing together people

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Speaker 1: from all walks of life and come and work in

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Speaker 1: collaboration with the people in Detroit to figure out if

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Speaker 1: there was something we can build unique to the city's experience.

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Speaker 1: And so that's how you and I ended up meeting,

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Speaker 1: Like you less such an impression, bro, and you were

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Speaker 1: an ambassador to the city. For me, I leaned on

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Speaker 1: that a lot, and I remember valuing the grounded perspective

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Speaker 1: you just shared, and I was so excited a year

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Speaker 1: later when we were reunited in Boston as director as

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Speaker 1: fellows at the M I T Media Lab. So talk

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Speaker 1: to me a little bit about your experience. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know what it was like for me, but why

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Speaker 1: did you participate? What was it like for you. I've

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Speaker 1: never shared this with you, but I remember a day

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Speaker 1: of us sitting at the table with some of the

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Speaker 1: fellows and we were we were in in in my

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Speaker 1: T Media lab, and I was just trembling inside because

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Speaker 1: I felt so out of place. Um, you know, in

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Speaker 1: my mind you all were just like intellectual titans and

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Speaker 1: creatives and all these things. And I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm just you know, short of two years removed

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Speaker 1: from prison and I didn't quite think I fit in.

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Speaker 1: And I remember the first day going into the lab.

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Speaker 1: It was one of those moments where I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: like the future is like right here in this one space.

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Speaker 1: I remember seeing these bionic legs and these robots and

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Speaker 1: I was just like, this is this is just such,

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Speaker 1: it's so bizarre. But I was so curious to lean

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Speaker 1: in and learn even more. And then I started working

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Speaker 1: with people there and I was like, you know, innovation

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Speaker 1: takes place everywhere. I've been innovating my whole life. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you grow up in the hood and you have

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Speaker 1: to make the best of the twols at your disposal,

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Speaker 1: to improve the quality of life is something that you

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Speaker 1: that never leaves you. And so when I got to

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Speaker 1: the lab, I was like, man, we was doing this

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Speaker 1: with no resources in the joint. I think I'm onto

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Speaker 1: something right here. And so that's when I begin to

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Speaker 1: get more comfortable with it. But initially I was really

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Speaker 1: intimidated by being there. And I'll tell you a quick

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Speaker 1: story if we have time. When I was at Mr

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Speaker 1: T Media Lab. One of the ways that I figured

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Speaker 1: out that I fit in was when I did a

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Speaker 1: prison hackathon and I came up with these five design challenges.

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Speaker 1: You know how to make a tattoo gun out of

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Speaker 1: a tape player motor, good child string in a in

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Speaker 1: an ink, and you know how to make a stinger,

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Speaker 1: which is how we heated up our award extensive cord

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Speaker 1: of nail clippers, And how to make a lighter out

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Speaker 1: of batteries. What I thought what happened was that these

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Speaker 1: brilliant students would solve them and they couldn't off none

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Speaker 1: of these in three hours. And it made me think

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Speaker 1: about the men and women inside who saw these things

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Speaker 1: in thirty seconds to survive and what would happen if

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Speaker 1: they had unfettered access to the resources that create technology.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. How do you think the experience of incarceration

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Speaker 1: would change if there were more access to technology inside

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Speaker 1: of prisons. I think there would be a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of changes. I think that people on an

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Speaker 1: inside would really be able to imagine a life for

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Speaker 1: themselves beyond being in the prison cell. I met some

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Speaker 1: of the most innovative people in prison, and there's an

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Speaker 1: organization that I love that I just have, you know,

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Speaker 1: great deal of respect for a car the last mile

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Speaker 1: and they're actually showing what would happen. There's men and

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Speaker 1: women inside of prisons right now as part of this

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Speaker 1: program that are actually building. Companies actually went to one

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Speaker 1: of their demo days of Saint Quentin. Every and of

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Speaker 1: those from an app that helps find missing children to

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Speaker 1: one that lets parents track their kids grades g P

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Speaker 1: and how about a voice coded trigger lock that can

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Speaker 1: be traced by police if you've got to stolen. There's

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Speaker 1: not a problem like that on the market. The program

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Speaker 1: is and walking around and seeing what these men were creating,

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Speaker 1: and how they were just so enthusiastic and hopeful and

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Speaker 1: full of light. And I was just like, man, I

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Speaker 1: wish I had that experience on the way out of prison.

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Speaker 1: I could have accelerated some things. But you know, to

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Speaker 1: see it happening at this level now, to see people

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Speaker 1: more open to it, it's really inspiring to me. So

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Speaker 1: that's what I think what happened is more creativity, more innovation,

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Speaker 1: and more companies built built by system impacted people. Shaka

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Speaker 1: sing Gore, Director of Dopeness, a well earned title, my friend,

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Speaker 1: my brother, thank you. In a lot of ways, Shaka's

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Speaker 1: story is exceptional. A man, against all odds, has been

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Speaker 1: able to repent for his crimes, rise to the top

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Speaker 1: of his field, and give back to his community in

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Speaker 1: a big way. It's the type of story our society loves, inspirational,

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Speaker 1: feel good, comforting. If taken out of context, it's almost

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Speaker 1: too comforting because Shaka shouldn't be the exception, and he

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Speaker 1: will be the first one to tell you that there

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Speaker 1: are more than two million people incarcerated in the United

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Speaker 1: States today. In fact, the US is consistently ranked as

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Speaker 1: the country with the highest incarceration rate per capita in

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Speaker 1: the whole world. Given those numbers, how many Shakas are

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Speaker 1: imprisoned today? People who have been cast aside despite their potential,

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Speaker 1: those whose perspectives can be a real asset to our society,

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Speaker 1: but we'll never get the chance. So please don't hold

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Speaker 1: Shaka as an example that the system is working because

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Speaker 1: someone like him became a tech executive. Instead, let Shaka

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Speaker 1: be a reminder to us, all of the potential innovators

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Speaker 1: who are in prison today, that for every one of

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Speaker 1: them who makes it, there are hundreds more who don't

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Speaker 1: get the chance. For mean, what's really heartbreaking is I

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Speaker 1: never heard one person say I can't wait to leave

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Speaker 1: prison to go back to prison, not one, And yet

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Speaker 1: about the people who leave prison go back And it's

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Speaker 1: because we don't allow them to connect back to society

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Speaker 1: in a meaningful way and have that human capital restored.

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Speaker 1: So what does it take to change the system so

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Speaker 1: that stories like Chaka's become the norm? After the break?

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Speaker 1: My conversation with Teresa Hodge, a return citizen who has

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Speaker 1: dedicated her life to answering that question. Teresa, what's up? Welcome,

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Speaker 1: thank you, It's so wonderful to be here with you today.

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Speaker 1: Teresa Hodge is the co founder and CEO of Mission Launch,

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Speaker 1: an organization in the DC area that's dedicated to supporting

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Speaker 1: individuals with the rest records and families impacted by mass

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Speaker 1: incarceration now. Mission Launch does this through an array of programs,

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Speaker 1: including financial literacy workshops, a business accelerator for returned citizens,

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Speaker 1: and even hackathons with the mission to improve post prison

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Speaker 1: re entry. In addition, Mission Launch and Teresa have created

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Speaker 1: Our three Score. This is an alternative to the background

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Speaker 1: check that doesn't simply ask do you have a criminal

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Speaker 1: record and ended that because we all know people are

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Speaker 1: much more dynamic than a simple yes no answer. Instead,

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Speaker 1: our three score is a more nuanced algorithm that asks

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Speaker 1: a series of questions that are better able to determine

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Speaker 1: how someone might perform as an employee, a residence, a borrower,

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Speaker 1: or something else. Think of it as a credit score

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Speaker 1: that actually makes sense. Wouldn't that be nice? Their current

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Speaker 1: initiative bank on a hundred million brings together both these efforts.

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Speaker 1: This campaign helps companies in schools rework their hiring, lending,

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Speaker 1: and admissions practices so they no longer exclude folks simply

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Speaker 1: for having criminal records, because that would exclude about a

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Speaker 1: hundred million people. Basically, look Teresa's using tech and activism

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Speaker 1: and her lived experience to improve the lives of millions

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Speaker 1: of Americans. Can you tell me how the idea of

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Speaker 1: Mission Launch came about? What was the moment? So the

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Speaker 1: moment for Mission Launch came when I was sitting in prison.

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Speaker 1: I went to prison in two thousand and seven and

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Speaker 1: began serving an eighty seven month federal prison sentence. That

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Speaker 1: seven years, three months felt like a lifetime sentence quite

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Speaker 1: frankly when it was given to me. The one thing

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Speaker 1: I knew was in order to be relevant, I had

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Speaker 1: to do something that concerned the prison, because after spending

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Speaker 1: those many years in prison, the only thing that I

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Speaker 1: would really know the most about was going to be prison.

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Speaker 1: But while I sat in prison and I listened to

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Speaker 1: the stories of the women who I was incarcerated with,

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Speaker 1: and I watched even more so a lot of women

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Speaker 1: go to prison and come back, I just really began

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Speaker 1: studying and trying to understand why were people coming back

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Speaker 1: Because what I knew was prison life was no way

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Speaker 1: of living, and people were coming back. There was a

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Speaker 1: strong disconnect. Yeah, you've talked about how technology is essential

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Speaker 1: and re entry for someone who's going to post incarceration.

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Speaker 1: What was the tech landscape like as you remember it

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Speaker 1: before you were in carcerated back in oh seven. So

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Speaker 1: when I went to prison, just to kind of help

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Speaker 1: you understand where technology was, Facebook was what young people

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Speaker 1: were using, my Space was around. And while I was

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Speaker 1: in prison, a few days afterwards, Steve Jobs announced the

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Speaker 1: first iPhone. There is a major breakthrough headed to American consumers.

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Speaker 1: It's the iPhone, an iPod, a cell phone in a

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Speaker 1: portable internet all in a little lightweight package. Today Apple

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Speaker 1: is going to reinvent the phone. And while I was

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Speaker 1: in prison, people start tweeting and I couldn't understand what

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Speaker 1: do you mean people are tweeting? What do you mean

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Speaker 1: they're putting in an atmosphere? But who's in the atmosphere?

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Speaker 1: What's going on? And what you understand is technology is

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Speaker 1: a context sport. And so for the men and women

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Speaker 1: who are incarcerated, we have disconnected them. I can't even

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Speaker 1: It's hard for me to imagine I stud in line

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Speaker 1: for that first iPhone and the idea that I would

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Speaker 1: be confined during that time and not even fully understand

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Speaker 1: that that was happening. That's jarring, you know, like that

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Speaker 1: someone changed the official language of your society and you

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Speaker 1: come back in you don't quite speaking. Am I capturing

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Speaker 1: some of what that must have felt like for you.

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Speaker 1: There were a few things that I missed the most.

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Speaker 1: Technology was one. Popcorn was another. I'll show you. I

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Speaker 1: need to show you how shallow I am, and that

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Speaker 1: you know, and my family and I really missed. But

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Speaker 1: it was the inability to use technology. And I am

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Speaker 1: a person who wasn't early adopted to technology. You know.

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Speaker 1: I really emphasized to a lot of young people before

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Speaker 1: incarceration the importance of technology and the digital divide. I

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Speaker 1: was teaching about it. So to find myself on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the divide, it was just heart wrenching.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm. Take me to the day you're released. What

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Speaker 1: do you remember about that day? I was released from

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Speaker 1: prison August three, two thousand and eleven, and so I

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Speaker 1: remember that day like it was yesterday, And what what

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Speaker 1: did my daughter bring me an iPhone? And ya, I

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Speaker 1: had been talking about technology. Did she bring you popcorn?

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Speaker 1: That's the real question, you know, she did not bring

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Speaker 1: me popcorn. She did not bring me popcorn. All right,

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Speaker 1: So your daughter shows up, she brings you an iPhone? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Actually it was my daughter, my mother, one of my sisters,

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Speaker 1: a niece, and one of my niece's girlfriends. And so

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Speaker 1: it was two carfuls of women who took me to

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Speaker 1: prison and a car fool that brought me back. I

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Speaker 1: am just one of the fortunate few that take family

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Speaker 1: with them and come back to family. So one just

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Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that privilege. But it was an iPhone.

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Speaker 1: But I'll be honest with you, I was so overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: because I did not have that level of connection to

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Speaker 1: technology and just the phone ringing and trying to text

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Speaker 1: and people calling and pictures popping up, and I felt

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Speaker 1: some anxiety. And I didn't expect that I was in

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Speaker 1: prison for five years, ten months away from technology, so

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Speaker 1: all of those generations of technology, you know, that had

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Speaker 1: taken place. Um. But I when I first came home,

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Speaker 1: my daughter and I had made a commitment that we

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Speaker 1: were going to work together. And while I was in prison,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had a conversation one day while she

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Speaker 1: was visiting, and I had just read an article that

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Speaker 1: said seven out of ten children who have an incarcerated

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Speaker 1: parents are likely to go to prison. Seven out of ten,

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Speaker 1: seven out of ten children. So it speaks to how

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Speaker 1: we are locking families into this cycle. And as a mom,

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Speaker 1: I was heartbroken. My daughter graduated from college before I

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Speaker 1: went to prison, and so we would sit and visit

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Speaker 1: and have conversations, and we were able to maintain our relationship.

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Speaker 1: But there were children that day playing outside who were

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Speaker 1: visiting their aunts and grandmas and mothers and sisters. And

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Speaker 1: I said to her, count ten children, and you tell

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Speaker 1: me which three deserves not to go to prison. At

433
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: that moment, our partnership was formed. I already knew what

434
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: I was going to do, but she decided that she

435
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: was going to bring her skill sets to the table.

436
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: And from there we just started entering business plan competitions,

437
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: with me providing information and insights from the inside and

438
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: her applying to competitions on the outside. Mm hmm, I'm

439
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: stuck on the seven out of ten, you know, it's

440
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's by design. You know, when we look

441
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: at racial wealth gap and all of these things, you

442
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: have to look at prison. It's unfortunate, but so many

443
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: people who go to prison, they come from under resource

444
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: communities and it's just the thing that happens. We'll be

445
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: right back. Tell me what human capital means to you.

446
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: I've seen you use that language and a lot of

447
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: other conversations and describing some of your work. Well, I

448
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: feel like for me that as humans, we all have

449
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: been given God given talent, we have strengths. It's the

450
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: total sum of who you are, what you're able to do,

451
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 1: how you see life in the world, and it's your

452
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: ability to spend that in how you work, you live

453
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: and play. And so for me, I feel like I'm

454
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: on a mission to help restore that human capital that's

455
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: lost when people are in prison and help people reconnect

456
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: back to society in a meaningful way. For me, what's

457
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: really heartbreaking is I never heard one person say I

458
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: can't wait to leave prison to go back to prison,

459
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: not one, And yet about the people who leave prison

460
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: go back, and it's because we don't allow them to

461
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: connect back to society in a meaningful way and have

462
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: that human capital restored. Yeah, when you use the word restore,

463
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: that's a powerful term to use because it's there. It's

464
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: like ready for investment, right as ready for the return

465
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: on that investment, and you sort of putting something back

466
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: where it belongs, as opposed to we got to go

467
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: find some human capital and go figure this thing out.

468
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: It's like it's been figured. We just got to undo

469
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: the harm that took it away from from all of

470
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: us collectively. What are some of the things high on

471
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: the list that you consider missing areas blind spots, whether

472
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: on your side or on society side. In terms of

473
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: how we interact with people on their return, well, for me,

474
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: I think that language matters. We don't have a good

475
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: way of talking about people who go to prison and

476
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: those same people who come back from prison, and so

477
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: we use words that are so offensive, like expelling x con.

478
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: We labeled them as criminals who wants to hire our criminal,

479
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: who wants a criminal to move into their apartment? Right,

480
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: No one even the language of returning citizen. When does

481
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: a person get to return? When is the punishment over?

482
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: And when is that just another person that is occupying

483
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: this world with us? And so for me, I think

484
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: that we have to begin to humanize or rehumanize humans.

485
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: We've turned over our prison system to our government. It

486
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: is an out of sight, out of mind, and we

487
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: have entrusted for far too long that they were doing

488
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: what was best on our behalf, and that has not

489
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: been the case. Today. One in three Americans having arrest

490
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: are conviction record. This is something we have to fix.

491
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: By the year twenty thirty one million Americans while having

492
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: arrest or conviction record. That's one into working age adults.

493
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: This is not the problem of the seventy plus million people.

494
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: This is all of our problem. And so I love

495
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: your how the citizen, because this is something we all

496
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: have to figure out. We're all stakeholders in this. Yeah,

497
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: we are. I remember the first time I visited Rikers Island.

498
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: I had been living in New York for a decade

499
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: and I've only seen it from the planes landing at LaGuardia,

500
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: which until I visited Rikers, I thought LaGuardia was the

501
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: worst place in New York City. And then I saw

502
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: what we did to people who couldn't afford bail. I

503
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: think what offended me most was I've been paying for

504
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: this the whole time, and I didn't know I was

505
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: investing in something and had no idea until I spent

506
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: just one day was enough because we've got to stop this.

507
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: The way you put it, when do people return? What's

508
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: the language you choose to use, and how do you

509
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: encourage us to refer to this population we've been talking about.

510
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: It's clearly not X felling an X con and maybe

511
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: returning citizens isn't the j out. So what do you suggest? Yeah,

512
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: we I feel like it is time for us to evolved.

513
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: I don't have the language, but I use human first

514
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: language always, and so what you always hear me say

515
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: is people with arrest or conviction records, because we are

516
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: people first, you know, And when in doubt, it's time

517
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: for us to learn each other's names. You know, that's

518
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: a way to hold up. I'm all for humanization, but

519
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: that's a step too far. Everybody's seven million people's name.

520
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: I could take five years to say a sentence that's

521
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: that's amazing. And thank you for that because I heard

522
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: you using it, and I was like, I think this

523
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: is a conscious choice, So I will try to learn

524
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: by that example. And I know you've been championing ban

525
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: the box initiatives. Can you explain what that means. Absolutely,

526
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: there are laws on in our government that make it

527
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: where employers cannot discriminate against people when they are trying

528
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: to get employment. You know, one of the economic pillars

529
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: of our society is we want every able body to

530
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: be able to work well. When people have an arrest,

531
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: are conviction record, employers are able to discriminate. It's a

532
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: silent discrimination. I used to run an HR department years ago,

533
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until I came home from prison that

534
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: I thought, oh my god, I was trained to discriminate.

535
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: I was told look for the best candidate, find reasons

536
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: to streamline hundred and fifty stack of resumes, And the

537
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: truth is we would come up with our own matrix internally.

538
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: So there are internal policies that are often not written,

539
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: but quite frankly, it's just culture, and that is we

540
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: do not hire folks with records. So banning the box

541
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: means that you cannot put on an application the box

542
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: that says have you ever been convicted of a crime,

543
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: So in one sense we are just delaying the discrimination.

544
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: But still there's an opportunity for me to have a

545
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: conversation and maybe a human connection. When you use numbers

546
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: like one in three Americans currently has an arrest or

547
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: conviction record and by one out of two working age

548
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: adults will will meet that same condition. Then it really

549
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: is a wee problem, absolutely, and the discrimination it's vast.

550
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: You know, we get to you've been out for several

551
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: years and you come up with another way a score, uh,

552
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: different kind of credit score, different algorithm. What is our

553
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: three score technologies? Our three score is a contextualized background

554
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: check for the one in three Americans living with an

555
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: arrest of conviction record. It provides dieting namic data. I

556
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: like to say it's a criminal background check that needs

557
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: a credit score. So when I was helping individuals who

558
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: were entrepreneurs build their business, is one of the things

559
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: I recognize is we could help them grow a business,

560
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: but we couldn't get them access to growth capital because

561
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: of their background check. And a local community bank approached me.

562
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: They were willing to make loans to individuals with arrest

563
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: are conviction records, but they didn't know how to assess them.

564
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: And so the proposition was, hey, Teresa, if you vet

565
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 1: people for me and if you okay them, will take

566
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: your word. Ah. So they were outsourcing to you yeah,

567
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, this is interesting, but it's not

568
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: scalable for Teresa to do this on a regular basis.

569
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: And yeah, and what if they missed the payment? Am

570
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: I now the collections department? But I understood the opportunity,

571
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, could I take what Theresa no

572
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: and put it to technology and can I scale that?

573
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,959
Speaker 1: And could I then create something where other people could

574
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: be seen differently. First, you have to understand that a

575
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: criminal background check is a very static document. It only

576
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: tells you if a person has a criminal record. That's

577
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: all that tells you yes or now. It's a buying

578
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: everything yes or no by andary, yes or now. And

579
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: it maybe give you citations. Well, if you don't know

580
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: how to read all these citations, you maybe don't understand

581
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: the difference between something as minimal as jaywalking and something

582
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: that you might be a little bit more you know,

583
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: scared of. You don't understand the time away from crime

584
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: and some of the other factors that might need to

585
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: go in. And so when that banker bought his problem

586
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: to me, our three score was born. And so we

587
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: wanted to create a data rich algorithm that allowed us

588
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: to look at people are dynamic. You know, we are

589
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: not static, So yes, we don't hide the fact that

590
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: a person has a record, but we add alternative data

591
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: that we think is also important for you to know,

592
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: Like what based upon my age, how long I've been

593
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: away from the criminal activity, how long I've been home

594
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: from prison, how active I am in my community. Those

595
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: are all factors that indicate that I am less likely

596
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: to commit a crime than someone who has not committed

597
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: a crime today. And that is evidence based research that

598
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: is already out there. So we brought in all the

599
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: evidence based research that was out there, and then in

600
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: addition to the evidence based research, it's just the nuance

601
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: of people, because when you think of seventy million people

602
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: with an arrest or conviction record, it's not a monolithic

603
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: it's not one person. But yet decision makers when they

604
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: see that a person has a criminal history, their mind

605
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: goes to the worst possible offenses and they make decisions

606
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: that they can't take the risk. And really all they're

607
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: looking for is like, give me a little bit more

608
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: information about this person. And we are a third party

609
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: validator of additional information. We sell contexts, We sell context

610
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: You're doing so much with this, Theresa you're First of all,

611
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: I think you're you're using data to humanize people, and

612
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: so much of our modern experience with data is the opposite.

613
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: It strips us of our humanity. It puts us in

614
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: these little market segments so that we can be auctioned

615
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: off to the highest bidder. And I have I had

616
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: my own strong objections to that. I like seeing an

617
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: example of data being used to restore someone's humanity. I

618
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 1: also think that in a nation like ours, where we've

619
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: criminalized so much, it's meaningless to have a criminal record.

620
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: If if we're approaching one and two working age people,

621
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: then what's even the point of the background check. Absolutely,

622
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge you because I think what you're

623
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 1: doing is brilliant and amazing, and it's restoring a lot

624
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: of my hope and faith in the possibilities of what

625
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: we can do with all this tech stuff. I want

626
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,399
Speaker 1: to ask you about one more initiative, which is bank

627
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: on one million. What is that? Why is it needed? Well,

628
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: when you think of the criminal justice system, it's complicated,

629
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: complex and convoluted. And I thought that just helping entrepreneurs

630
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: was enough, but then I was like, oh, I gotta

631
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: create something for people to interpret them and understand. Well,

632
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: now that we've created a tool, now it's like, oh

633
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: my gosh. Corporations need implementation and understanding and they need programming.

634
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: So Bank on a hundred mill is a platform. And

635
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: I'm I am so done after this. I'm like, I've

636
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: done enough. You know, you just enjoy and us sis

637
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: to retire and enjoy some life after president after all

638
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: of this. But so bank on a hundred million, this

639
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: is an opportunity for us to decide collectively to broader us.

640
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: How are we going to treat our brothers and sisters

641
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: who have an arrest or conviction record. And it's a

642
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: way that you can come on a platform and learn.

643
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: There will be educational information, case studies. We're going to

644
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: provide all of that. If you're a corporation and you

645
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: want to do better, be better, there's a pledge for

646
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: you to take and we offer consulting and we offer

647
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: the tool, and we can help you understand some policies

648
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: and procedures. So for me, I brought my body of

649
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: work together on the Bank on a hundred million platform,

650
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: and I'm inviting the stakeholders in America to come and

651
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: let's solve this problem together and let's put people back

652
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: to work so that they can be productive and help

653
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: grow our country. I think it's possible that the next

654
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: big idea, the next UH solution, the next you know cure,

655
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: could be sitting inside of an American prison and that

656
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: they can come home and be extremely productive. The question

657
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: only is will we let them? Mm hmm. Our major

658
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: theme for this season has been can we find stories

659
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: that show us tech that actually helps us citizen? How

660
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: do you think we should be using tech to help

661
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: the lives of of return to returning citizens rather than

662
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: making it harder. So, for me, our goal is to

663
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: become the gold standard quite frankly, for how we vet

664
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: nessess individuals who have arrest are conviction records. We have

665
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: to stop turning this system over to our government. We

666
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: have to get involved, We have to become active citizens

667
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: around this. You know, if you're not sure how to

668
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: do it again, that's the reason why we're creating this

669
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: platform where you can come and learn. One place you

670
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: can come learn how you can get engaged and you know,

671
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 1: just help put some of the folks who have served

672
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: their time back to work, restore lives and in that

673
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: cycle of families going to prison. Yeah, that that is

674
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: the wrong kind of family business incarceration. We've been asking

675
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: people and you've already started answering what they would encourage

676
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: our our listeners to do. What would you want someone

677
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: to reflect on or challenge internally on this topic. I

678
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: throw data and statistics around, but if there's one piece

679
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: of data, America has five per cent of the world's

680
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: population and twenty five per cent the world's prisoners. Are

681
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: we that bad? Are the people of the country bad?

682
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 1: Or our our policies and how we've done this bad?

683
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: And if we do nothing else, just this is a

684
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: time for us to see this issue differently. It costs

685
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: too much, it destroys lives, and it is just time

686
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: for us to see one another. I can assure you

687
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: every time I present people like shopped and gasp at

688
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: the statistics. But afterwards someone comes up and when I

689
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: hear their voice drop, I know what's getting ready to happen.

690
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: They say, my father went to pression, my mother went

691
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: to prison. It's time for this to stop being America's

692
00:43:50,200 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: dirty little secret. Period. Teresa, Hi, you're a Dovis. Thank

693
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: you so much forgiving for asking yourself that question. And

694
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: answering it every day with what you're doing, and for

695
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: using tech to humanize us and help us see each

696
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: other as people. First, I'm so glad that we've had

697
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 1: this opportunity to talk to you. Thank you so much.

698
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: I am glad for the invitation and let us have

699
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: brunch together. Yeah, when I'm next in town. I mean

700
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: I live in California. I was so thrilled to talk

701
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: with Teresa because she's doing so much of what we

702
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: talked about on this show. She's using her power to

703
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 1: benefit us collectively and specifically with tech. She's creating new

704
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: algorithms that actually center justice. She's proof that tech doesn't

705
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: have to rip us apart or dehumanizes, but that we

706
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: can choose to use it to do the opposite. And

707
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: she's wrapping my hometown of d C. So you know,

708
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: there's a lot of love there. We started this season

709
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: asking where tech went wrong, but we intentionally spent most

710
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: of our time with the people who are fixing it,

711
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: who are building tech to help us citizens. And what

712
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 1: they're building is so damn cool. But that's not even

713
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: the most inspiring part. It's the people behind the innovation

714
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: that inspires me. For too long we've been living in

715
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: a tech dictatorship, one where a select few get to

716
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: call all the shots. But our guests are rejecting that

717
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: narrative and a fighting to bring humanity back into tech.

718
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: Even if you don't identify as a tech nerd, you've

719
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: got to admit that's add As I thought I was

720
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: making a season about tech, it turns out I was

721
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: making a season about rebels. I've always been broken. They

722
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: will never give me money. So now the gloves have

723
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 1: totally come up. If you can't bid them, make them obsolete.

724
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: And then at the same time, we have to radically

725
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: reinvent the incentive structure of social media. So nothing big,

726
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: nothing big that I'm a seat at the table isn't

727
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: the same thing as a voice at the table. You know,

728
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: don't push the conversation, take time, take patients, move at

729
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: the speed of trust and care. Before speaking with all

730
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: these incredible people, even I Baritune day, the techno Optimists,

731
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: Thurston will admit I was starting to lose faith that

732
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: we could reclaim tech for the collective. There's so much

733
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: evidence and news and examples that pessimistic point of view.

734
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: But speaking with my big sister at the start of

735
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 1: this journey. She reminded me of the magic my mother

736
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 1: instilled in us to be critical, but most of all,

737
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: to never stop imagining what's next. My mother never had

738
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: the opportunity to thrive creatively at work. If she had,

739
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: I know she would have created something spectacular. Seeing all

740
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: these people using tech for beautiful things, it makes me

741
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: feel like a little bit of her is still here.

742
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 1: And if I accomplished one thing this season, it would

743
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,439
Speaker 1: be the past down my mother's imagination when it came

744
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: to tech. But Linda described her as becoming, you know,

745
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: dealing with whatever the past layers were, but but always

746
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: having the courage to continue to reach toward whatever it

747
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: is that she could see and that she wasn't done,

748
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: she was not ending, she was still living and um

749
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: she was still becoming. Just because tech has been in

750
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 1: one thing for us doesn't mean it can't become something else,

751
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: something better. Just because we think one way doesn't mean

752
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: we can't become someone better. So the question is what

753
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: are you going to become? And now, for our crowd favorite,

754
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: the part of the show where we put you in

755
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: and give you ways to citizen, it's time for some action,

756
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: all right. For personal reflection. The United States has five

757
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: percent of the world's population and of the world's prison population.

758
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: Now ask yourself the question Teresa wants us all to ask,

759
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: Are we that bad? No? X? Let's get informed about

760
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: who's leaving the spaces we spend time in. I want

761
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: you to take stock of the companies whose products and

762
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: services you use the most, the nonprofits you may be supported.

763
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: Let's take a look at their boards and senior leadership.

764
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: Do those people reflect the experiences of the communities they serve?

765
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: And while you're in a learning mood, check out Shaka's

766
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: ted talk why your worst deeds don't define you. Finally,

767
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 1: for ways to publicly participate, let's citizen with those who

768
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: have felony convictions the Last Mile. This is an incredibly

769
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: effective organization that prepares incarcerated individuals for successful re entrigued

770
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: and I want you to support their work with your money,

771
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: with your time in terms of volunteering, or better yet,

772
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: hire their graduates. Get your employers to hire their graduates.

773
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: These actions and links are in the show notes on

774
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: your device in front of your face and also on

775
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: our website at how do citizen dot com. Because this

776
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: is the last episode, of season three. Let me also

777
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: say thank you to the team at dust Light Productions.

778
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: Y'all don't even know. This is a really, really, really

779
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 1: really dope group of people. And I want to thank

780
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: Ali Kilts, who writes for me almost as good as me. Uh,

781
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: my assistant Layla being a who helps you know the

782
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: calendar not be wild. I want to thank Matthew Lai,

783
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: who came in midstream as our apprentice and stepped up

784
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: and produced the heck out of things. I want to

785
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: thank Sam Paulson, who was our apprentice on season two,

786
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: full law producer in season three and delivered some stellar

787
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: guests and great episodes to the mix. Stephanie, our editor

788
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: who produced on season two edited on season three. Stephanie,

789
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: every time I feel like I'm a little lacking in

790
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: the video, I do jumping jacks. That's an inside joke,

791
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: but you understand what I'm saying. To Mika, Oh my goodness.

792
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: To Mika, our our lead producer, crushing it. Thank you

793
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: for especially your calm in so many storms. Misha and Arwin,

794
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you. Thank you who helped run us

795
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: Light and have provided valuable notes, guidance, and insight along

796
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: the way. There's another group that's been involved with this season. Uh.

797
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: They're a group called Civics Unplugged, and we actually featured

798
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: them in the very first season of How To Citizen.

799
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: I don't remember the episode number, but go back and

800
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: check them out. They've been really stepping up to help

801
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: us out with the digital If you've been enjoying the

802
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: new How To Citizen Instagram experience, that's due to the

803
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: gen's ears at Civics unplug and we are going to

804
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: collaborate with them even more so. Thank you, especially to

805
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: to Nazi, to Chabou, to Julia uh and to Josh

806
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: over at Civics umplug uh and and last but not

807
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: at least, I said this at the end of season too.

808
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: I'll say it again at the end of this season

809
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: to my wife, my life partner, executive producer, co creator

810
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: of this show with me, Elizabeth, you are the producer

811
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: closest to my heart and you have really helped elevate

812
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 1: what we're doing here. So to the listeners out there,

813
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: you've heard my voice. There is a whole team of

814
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: people behind it, giving me things to say, helping me

815
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: find people, pushing me to be better, challenging me and

816
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: pushing me to citizen and especially thank you. Thank you

817
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: for listening, thank you for engaging, Thank you for citizening.

818
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: This is a team sport. Stay tuned to us at

819
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: how do citizen dot com find us on Instagram? At

820
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 1: how do citizen tag us in your citizen practice? Hashtag

821
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:56,240
Speaker 1: it and connect with others doing the same, or don't

822
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: we We don't need you to find us on Zuckerberg property,

823
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: the metaverse or whatever. We need you to engage with

824
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: each other in the world. This thing that we're doing

825
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: as a collective as a people requires belief, requires faith,

826
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: and requires reminders that we can still do good stuff,

827
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: that we're not just subjects in somebody else's kingdom. When

828
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: it comes to technology, where we're spending so much of

829
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: our time, all of our emotions, our money, our family connections,

830
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: our politics, it's all there. It's very important that we

831
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: exercise our power, that we determine how we're going to

832
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: use this to meet our human needs individually and collectively,

833
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: that we use tech to citizen So I will see

834
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: you somewhere in the world, and I hope you will

835
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: see each other as well. Keeps citizen in y'all, keeps

836
00:53:55,080 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: citis in In In You, How Do? Citizen with Baritone is

837
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio podcast and dust Light Productions.

838
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Me Barryton Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart,

839
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: and Misha Yusuf. Our senior producer is Tamika Adams, Our

840
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: producer is Ali Kilts, and our assistant producer is Sam Paulson.

841
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: Stephanie Cohne is our editor, Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer,

842
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: and Matthew Laie as our apprentice. Additional production help from

843
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: rwin Nicks, original music by Andrew Eapen, with additional original

844
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: music for season three from Andrew Clauson. This episode was

845
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: produced and sound designed by Ali Kilts. Special thanks to

846
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: Joel Smith from I Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at

847
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: dust Light Production.