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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column

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Speaker 1: for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write a Dear Guy column for Ted. And this

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Speaker 3: is Deo Therapists. This week, an adopted woman forms a

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Speaker 3: close relationship with her biological father, but then a DNA

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Speaker 3: test reveals a shocking surprise.

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Speaker 4: Growing up, it was super important to me to have

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Speaker 4: the answers as to who my pological parents were, so

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Speaker 4: it was pretty devastating when the person who was supposed

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Speaker 4: to be my father wasn't my father and I had

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Speaker 4: another father there somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. Hey,

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Speaker 1: just a note before we start. Year therapist is for

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Speaker 1: informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter. You

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Speaker 1: are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or

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Speaker 1: in full, and we may edit it for length and

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Speaker 1: or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey guy.

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Speaker 3: Well, we have an interesting letter this week. Let's get

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Speaker 3: to it, okay, Dear therapists. I'm an adult adoptee who

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Speaker 3: reunited with both my birth parents twenty two years ago.

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Speaker 3: My birth father, whom i'll call Alan, put in his

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Speaker 3: name at the agency and facilitated the reunion, and he

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Speaker 3: tracked down my birth mother to give her the chance

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Speaker 3: to be part of it. All started off well with everyone.

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Speaker 3: About a year after the reunion, though, my birth mother

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Speaker 3: dropped out of the permanent picture, though she did make

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Speaker 3: a few reappearances over the years, the last one ending

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Speaker 3: badly as she said she was willing to have an

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Speaker 3: occasional relationship with only me, but not my kids, who

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Speaker 3: would have wanted a relationship with her. I wanted more

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Speaker 3: than to be some sort of secret daughter. Meanwhile, Allan

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Speaker 3: and his family have shared a very close and loving

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Speaker 3: relationship with me and my family in the twenty two

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Speaker 3: years since our reunion, and it's been wonderful. However, after

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Speaker 3: recently doing DNA testing, I found out that Allan is

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Speaker 3: not actually my birth father. Needless to say, that was

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Speaker 3: pretty shocking news. Allan told me that it doesn't change

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Speaker 3: anything for him, but I'm heartbroken for him and his family.

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Speaker 3: Imagine all they've been through. For me, it doesn't change

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Speaker 3: the fact that he's been an amazing dad and grandpa

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Speaker 3: for twenty two years. But as I moved forward with

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Speaker 3: trying to find out the truth of who my real

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Speaker 3: father is, I feel like we needed to address it.

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Speaker 3: I reached down to Alan's wife, who has been like

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Speaker 3: a stepmom to me, for advice, only to discover that

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Speaker 3: she does not believe in DNA tests. In her mind,

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Speaker 3: that I walked identically to Uncle Terry was proof that

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Speaker 3: I was my dad's child. It had been upsetting for me,

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Speaker 3: and obviously the reality that the man I thought was

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Speaker 3: my father was lied to all those years ago is

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Speaker 3: huge for him and his family to deal with. I

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Speaker 3: suffer a lot of guilt thinking I'm a reminder of

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Speaker 3: massive pain to them. I also contacted my birth mother,

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Speaker 3: informed her that they did at EONA test and that

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Speaker 3: Allan is not in fact my birth father. Her response

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Speaker 3: to me was, this isn't Mamma, Mia, don't contact me again.

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Speaker 3: I decided to write to my birth mother's other siblings.

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Speaker 3: I wanted them to know that I had wanted a

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Speaker 3: relationship with them all those years. The response was positive,

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Speaker 3: and now I am trying to navigate a relationship with them,

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Speaker 3: despite the fact that my birth mother wrote to me

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Speaker 3: after and told me never to contact any of her

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Speaker 3: family again. When I told my no longer birth dad

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Speaker 3: about this, he said, while he wished me the best

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Speaker 3: with it, he never wanted to hear any of their

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Speaker 3: names again. My adoptive mum is also not supportive of

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Speaker 3: my pursuing a relationship with them, so it's a bit tough.

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Speaker 3: And finally, a third cousin I met with an ancestry

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Speaker 3: reached out and has unraveled who my biological father is.

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Speaker 3: All I know right now is that he was the

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Speaker 3: same age as my birth mother at the time of

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Speaker 3: my birth sixteen and living on the same military base.

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Speaker 3: I find all of this a bit tricky to navigate.

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Speaker 3: Being adopted. I already know that family isn't just about blood,

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Speaker 3: But isn't honesty important? Or do I just leave that

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Speaker 3: be and carry on as we always have?

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Speaker 1: Thanks Christine, Wow, that is such a painful and complicated situation.

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Speaker 3: Painful and complicated indeed, And there's so many players and

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Speaker 3: so many of them are hurting, but especially Christine. It

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Speaker 3: sounds like because it's hard to make sense of one adoption.

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Speaker 3: It's really hard to make sense when you find out

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Speaker 3: that the person you thought was your biological dad actually wasn't.

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Speaker 3: Now you don't know who is. Now you have to

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Speaker 3: start searching all over again. Everyone's hurt, she's not getting support.

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Speaker 3: It's a really tricky one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much layered in here with the secrets

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Speaker 1: and the lies. Carl Jung called secret psychic poison, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's what's happening here too, is that there

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Speaker 1: was this secret that Alan didn't know about and that

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Speaker 1: Christine didn't know about. And it's not clear whether her

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Speaker 1: biological mother lied or whether she didn't know who the

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Speaker 1: father was. So that's an important piece of information.

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Speaker 3: What I'm hambering from a lot of people is that

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Speaker 3: DNA testing is so widely available now it's making a

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Speaker 3: lot of people have to really think through what the

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Speaker 3: definition of family is and how we define family, and

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Speaker 3: especially in this age where we are going to find

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Speaker 3: out that a lot of who we thought were family

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Speaker 3: are not biological family?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, she said, being adopted. I know that family

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Speaker 1: is more than blood, but I also think family is

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Speaker 1: about openness and trust and safety and what she's missing

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Speaker 1: right now. And I'm not sure which pieces of her

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Speaker 1: family she's going to get this from, but I think

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Speaker 1: she really needs all three of those components for her

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Speaker 1: to feel like she has family that feels good to her.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a quick break.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go talk to her. So, Hi, Christine, welcome.

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Speaker 3: Great to have you on our show.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: It's a very complicated situation that you described, and it

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Speaker 3: sounds like there's been so many twists and turns, and

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Speaker 3: all of them so intense and emotional. And I guess

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Speaker 3: given so much has happened, as anything else happened since

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Speaker 3: he wrote you letter to us.

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Speaker 4: Well, I have now connected to my biological father and

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Speaker 4: I've spoken with him on the phone now and I'm

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Speaker 4: connected to his family.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, yes, So tell us about that a little bit.

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Speaker 3: How that happened and what that was like.

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Speaker 4: So I guess the individual who connected me to the

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Speaker 4: family through ancestry. He told the mother like my biological grandmother,

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Speaker 4: that I existed, and he put me in touch with her.

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Speaker 4: Then she connected me to my apological father and we

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Speaker 4: had a couple of emails and then decided that it

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Speaker 4: was good to talk on the phone and chat that way.

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Speaker 1: Was he surprised to learn that he had a daughter?

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Speaker 5: He was surprised.

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Speaker 4: So what happened is I sent my bological grandmother a

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Speaker 4: picture of my birth mother from back then and her name,

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Speaker 4: just to see if she recognized or knew, and she didn't,

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Speaker 4: but she showed him the picture and right away he

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Speaker 4: knew who it was and said yes. We were dating

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Speaker 4: for a few months and then we broke up and

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Speaker 4: we knew that she went away but didn't know what

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Speaker 4: had happened. And as she came back without a baby,

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Speaker 4: no one knew that she had a baby.

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Speaker 1: So what was it like for him to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: What was his reaction.

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Speaker 4: I think he's pretty shock and still taking it in.

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Speaker 4: I can't imagine what it would be like to suddenly

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Speaker 4: find out that you have a child that's a complete shock,

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Speaker 4: which is very different from the man I was told

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Speaker 4: is my father for the twenty whatever years before he

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Speaker 4: put his name in on the registry, had thought he

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Speaker 4: had a child and felt the loss of that child,

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Speaker 4: and so that was like his impetus to try to

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Speaker 4: find me.

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Speaker 3: What was it like for you, because the this has

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Speaker 3: been such a long quest, So now you actually know

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Speaker 3: who both your biological parents are. What was it like

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Speaker 3: to actually get that answered for you?

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a huge relief.

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Speaker 4: I mean, growing up was super important to me to

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Speaker 4: have the answers as to who my bological parents were,

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Speaker 4: and so it was pretty devastating in the period. Then

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Speaker 4: the person who was supposed to be my father wasn't

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Speaker 4: my father, and I had another father there somewhere, So

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Speaker 4: on the one hand, it was a big relief. But

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Speaker 4: then I have to say when I called him, when

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Speaker 4: I was making that first call, it took me a

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Speaker 4: really long time to do it. It was very overwhelmed

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Speaker 4: by emotion. So we're even talking about it now of cool,

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Speaker 4: little hard. It was also kind of acknowledging that Alan,

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Speaker 4: the man who was my father for the past twenty

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Speaker 4: two years, acknowledging that he's being kind of replaced by

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Speaker 4: someone else. It is again, I want to have a

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Speaker 4: relationship with him, and he'll always be a dad. But

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Speaker 4: it was really solidifying, like this is real. This other

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Speaker 4: person is my father and not Alan.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that sense of almost disloyalty. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: can you say more about that.

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Speaker 4: It does feel like a bit of a betrayal because

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Speaker 4: Alan has been my father for the past twenty two

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Speaker 4: years and a really great father, and so a lot

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Speaker 4: of people when this all came to light, were kind

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Speaker 4: of like, well, do you even need to find someone else?

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Speaker 4: You know, you have a great person in your life,

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Speaker 4: so isn't that enough.

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Speaker 5: But it goes back.

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Speaker 4: To the first time when I wanted to find out

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Speaker 4: who my bolitical parents were. It wasn't any slight against

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Speaker 4: my adoptive family. It was just this needing to know.

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Speaker 4: But I still feel guilt. I mean, it's been there.

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Speaker 4: I guess from the beginning that there's this feeling of

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Speaker 4: guilt for any kind of pursuit of your biological family

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Speaker 4: when you're adopted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, this is so common, I think where

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Speaker 1: there's this whole question of if you want to understand

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Speaker 1: more about where you came from, which is a basic

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Speaker 1: human need? What is my identity? Where did I come from?

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Speaker 1: Some people feel like, well, wait a minute, are we

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Speaker 1: not enough? We love you, You're our family, and I

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Speaker 1: think this whole situation brings up this question of what

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Speaker 1: are these basic human needs about not having secrets and transparency?

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Speaker 3: Could you tell us a little bit about how you

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Speaker 3: were raised.

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Speaker 4: My mom and dad were a couple who couldn't have

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Speaker 4: kids because my mom had a hysterectomy, so they adopted

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Speaker 4: my brother, and then they adopted me, and we were

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Speaker 4: reasonable family, average, like you know, growing up happy. My

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Speaker 4: adoptive dad did die the year after I had.

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Speaker 5: The reunion with my other father and biological mother.

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Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.

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Speaker 5: I was twenty two.

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Speaker 4: I'd had the reunion with my family and my adoptive

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Speaker 4: dad died, and so it was a pretty big year.

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Speaker 5: But I felt like, in a way, I was losing

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Speaker 5: one father, and.

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Speaker 4: Then the universe gave me another father, which was really wonderful.

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Speaker 1: How was the fact that you and your brother were

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Speaker 1: both adopted talked about in your family?

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Speaker 4: So certainly the adoption was a really strong point of contention.

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Speaker 4: I was given a book and that was about the dialogue,

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Speaker 4: you know. Otherwise it was like this is supposed to

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Speaker 4: be secret, like you know, we don't talk about it.

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Speaker 5: This is your family.

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Speaker 4: And so I had a hard time processing it when

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Speaker 4: I was young that I had parents that would give

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Speaker 4: me away. You know, I had a lot of questions

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Speaker 4: and nowhere to go with them. And then I knew

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Speaker 4: when seem as I turned eighteen and legally I could

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Speaker 4: search myself, I would, and my adoptive family was very

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Speaker 4: upset with me. Even my brother, who is also adopted,

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Speaker 4: was not supportive at all of me searching.

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Speaker 3: Who is supporting you right now in what's going on?

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Speaker 4: My husband is very supportive. I have a friend, she's

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Speaker 4: a social worker, and so she was very helpful and

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Speaker 4: giving insight and information and my initial search. I'm very

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Speaker 4: grateful for her and other friends that I have, and

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Speaker 4: you know, even my kids. It's been a bit eye

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Speaker 4: opening for them, but they are very supportive and understanding.

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Speaker 3: I can just see how emotionalness is for you. And

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Speaker 3: it's not just about the discovery of Okay, now I

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Speaker 3: finally connected. It's all these relationships that are being tested,

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Speaker 3: which are the ones that are most troubling to you?

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Speaker 3: Not the most important relationships, But which are the relationships

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Speaker 3: in which the tension is most urgent for you to repair?

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Speaker 4: I guess with Alan, the you know, the man who

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Speaker 4: has been my father the past twenty two years, just

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Speaker 4: making sure that that's okay, because he's been such a

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Speaker 4: wonderful addition to my life and to my children's life,

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Speaker 4: and you know, I really don't want this to damage

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Speaker 4: that connection that we have.

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Speaker 1: You were twenty two when Alan found you. What was

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Speaker 1: the reaction of your family since they had not been

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Speaker 1: supportive of your searching?

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Speaker 4: Well, initially they were very kind of trepidacious, aloof like

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Speaker 4: not involved. But over the years it certainly like it

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00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 4: has improved that you know. Now it has just been

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Speaker 4: like a big extension of family, Like to the point

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Speaker 4: that my mom, my adoptive mom, when I told her

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Speaker 4: I was going to try to find out now who

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Speaker 4: my biological father was, reaction was like, oh, poor Alan,

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Speaker 4: you can't do that.

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Speaker 1: To Alan, she related to that because that's how it

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Speaker 1: felt to her when you wanted to search. Yeah, what's

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Speaker 1: going to happen if you find these other people and

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Speaker 1: you have a relationship with them. She was projecting that

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Speaker 1: onto how Alan might feel.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, I can see that.

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Speaker 3: So what is the current situation with Alan right now?

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to find a balance of you know, sharing.

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Speaker 4: It's a big life event, right, and so I feel

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Speaker 4: like I should be telling my parents about what's happening,

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Speaker 4: but I worry like that it's hurtful if I'm like

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Speaker 4: I talked to my about to go father and it

301
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Speaker 4: was really wonderful. Like, is that going to be difficult?

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Speaker 4: And I know that Alan has said that it is

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Speaker 4: hard for him, but he wants to know and be

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Speaker 4: kept in the loop. So we're trying to navigate it.

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Speaker 4: Just I worry every time I sent an update that

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Speaker 4: it's going to be really upsetting.

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Speaker 1: What I think is running through all of these stories

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Speaker 1: is this fear of being abandoned by people even though

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Speaker 1: you've done nothing wrong. So you were wondering when you

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Speaker 1: were little, why did my appearance give me up? Right?

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Speaker 1: And then later you found Alan, and then you got

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Speaker 1: this information that he wasn't really your biological father, and

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Speaker 1: I think you're worried about are they going to feel

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Speaker 1: the same about me? And then there became this issue

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Speaker 1: of and now I found my biological father, and with

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Speaker 1: every revelation, there's this question of who's going to stay

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Speaker 1: with me through this, who's going to still love me?

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Speaker 1: And what is going to happen to these relationships? And

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Speaker 1: that puts you in a very precarious position emotionally.

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Speaker 3: Yes, what's really compelling here is that there's this parallel

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Speaker 3: process happening on the other side. In other words, part

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Speaker 3: of why your mom and Alan perhaps are having a

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Speaker 3: hard time because there might also be wondering if she's

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Speaker 3: still going to love us if she finds these people.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's what's so difficult here, because it

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Speaker 3: sounds like a lot of you are in pain and

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Speaker 3: a lot of you are questioning things, And with each

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Speaker 3: new revelation, it's about, well, what does that do to

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Speaker 3: our relationship? What does that do to the love she

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Speaker 3: has for us? What does it do to the love

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Speaker 3: they have for you? And it sounds like there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of reassurance that's necessary all around. How much of

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Speaker 3: that goes on that reassurance from you to them, from

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Speaker 3: them to you? Is that something that's being expressed enough to.

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Speaker 5: A degree, But I guess maybe there could be more

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Speaker 5: on whose pot I feel like I'm.

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Speaker 4: The initiator a lot of the times, like I have

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Speaker 4: to reach out to people more than people reach out

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Speaker 4: to me to say, you know, we still love you

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Speaker 4: and it's going to be fine.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen a change in your relationship with Alan

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Speaker 1: and his family since these revelations?

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Speaker 5: Yes? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Can you describe what's different?

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Speaker 4: Before it was just easy, but now it's like, I

346
00:20:38,159 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 4: feel like I have to take a deep breath. I've

347
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 4: lost that sense of ease that I had before, you know,

348
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Speaker 4: and then this worry that wasn't there. It's hard to describe.

349
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Speaker 4: This doesn't feel like the connection is the same.

350
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Speaker 1: Right, there's this question of who am I to you

351
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Speaker 1: and who are you to me? Now? Yes, can we

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00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: find out a little bit more about your biological mother

353
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Speaker 1: and what that experience has been like for you? It

354
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Speaker 1: sounds incredibly painful where you've reached out to her and

355
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Speaker 1: at first she was somewhat receptive and then she sort

356
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Speaker 1: of closed the door, and she did it with not

357
00:21:20,679 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 1: a lot of sensitivity. So can you talk more about

358
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Speaker 1: what that was like for you?

359
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Speaker 5: In a word, it has been awful.

360
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Speaker 4: I think it's every adoptee's worst nightmare to be rejected again,

361
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Speaker 4: and with her it having been multiple times now and

362
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Speaker 4: the time before when I reached out to her to

363
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Speaker 4: find out if she would give.

364
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Speaker 5: Me any information about my poetical father.

365
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Speaker 4: We've been rebuilding our relationship and things seemed to be

366
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Speaker 4: going well, and you know, my kids were excited because

367
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 4: in their mind it was like, oh, you know, a

368
00:21:56,399 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 4: new part of our family.

369
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Speaker 5: This is going to be wonderful.

370
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Speaker 4: And when I told her that, she just said, like, no, sorry,

371
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Speaker 4: like your kids have no part in my family.

372
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Speaker 5: I don't want to meet them, and that was it.

373
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Speaker 1: Does she have children that she had subsequent to you?

374
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Speaker 4: Yes, she had a son after me, but a year

375
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Speaker 4: after she had me.

376
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Speaker 3: Oh, still very young.

377
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 5: Yes that she kept.

378
00:22:21,679 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: Yes, And did you have any contact with him?

379
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 4: I did in the initial time when Alan had put

380
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 4: his name in and let them know he was going

381
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 4: to be finding me. Her and her family were interested,

382
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 4: and I met her family, I met her son, and

383
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 4: things were good. But then when things started to go bad,

384
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 4: I could see that as a son that he could

385
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 4: see that his mum was hurting, and so he was

386
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 4: pretty angry by the end about the reunion and felt

387
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 4: like his life had been disrupted and everything.

388
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Speaker 3: So do you know why she was hurting.

389
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 4: I think she was finding the reunion process hard. I

390
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 4: think that with her and Alan that there were a

391
00:23:07,639 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: lot of unresolved feeling that they were dealing with.

392
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Speaker 5: There's kind of a whole side story of their own.

393
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 4: Relationship and trying to figure out what happened and where

394
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 4: they were, So there was conflict there at the time.

395
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Speaker 1: What was her relationship with Alan that made her either

396
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: believe or decide to say that Alan was the biological father.

397
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Speaker 4: She was fourteen when they started going out, and she

398
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,999
Speaker 4: was sixteen when she had me, So they had a

399
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 4: long term relationship. He had given her a promise ring

400
00:23:47,399 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 4: or they were supposed to be together forever. But then

401
00:23:50,879 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 4: she moved away and she told him she wanted to

402
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 4: see other people, and one of those other people happened

403
00:23:57,439 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 4: to be a voluntial father. But I guess at some

404
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 4: point they must have gotten back together, you know, after

405
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: she founished she was pregnant, and so Alan then was

406
00:24:08,399 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 4: led to believe that he was the father and they

407
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 4: were going to run away together to have me. And

408
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 4: the day before they were supposed to leave, she told

409
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 4: him that she had told her parents and that she

410
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 4: was going to be sent away and that was it.

411
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: That must have been such a difficult memory for her.

412
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: You're a teenager and you're scared, and you don't know

413
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: what to do, and you make this decision to tell

414
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: your parents because you need to. And I don't know

415
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: how they reacted, but it was a secret. They sent

416
00:24:46,879 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: her away, and that must have been something that was

417
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,039
Speaker 1: in some ways shameful in her family. Oh yeah, And

418
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: yet when you approached the rest of the family, they

419
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: were much more welcoming. It didn't seem like they had

420
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: whatever feelings might have been there a long time ago. Yeah.

421
00:25:07,679 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 3: Right, all the expoionens that you've now had with all

422
00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 3: of this, how do you define what family is right now?

423
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 5: Oh?

424
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 4: I guess at this point, like my best answer is

425
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 4: that it's the people who are there for you, the

426
00:25:27,879 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: people who come into your life and stay there through

427
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 4: thick and thin, and who give love and receive love.

428
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: I think that's a lovely definition.

429
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 4: So for you, that would be who right now, my kids, obviously,

430
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 4: my husband, my mom, Alan, and his wife Susan.

431
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: Given the definition you gave us of what family means

432
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 3: to you, what are your hopes for what your relationship

433
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 3: with your biological dad and his mom will be like

434
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: going forward.

435
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 5: Oh well, I have to confess.

436
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 4: I'm hopeful that they will become family too such an

437
00:26:09,919 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 4: early stage of things that I don't know. His mom

438
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 4: is very warm and receptive, but with him I haven't

439
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 4: quite gotten a handle. And so I would say that

440
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 4: there is that feeling of worrying about rejection that has

441
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: me kind of nervous at this stage.

442
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: I want to go back just once work this question

443
00:26:33,159 --> 00:26:38,239
Speaker 1: of what happened with your biological mom. So initially she

444
00:26:38,439 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: was potentially interested in having some kind of contact with you,

445
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 1: and then she didn't want the kind of contact that

446
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: you wanted, which was to bring your whole family into

447
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: this relationship. And then she got very closed off. And

448
00:26:56,919 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: that comment sticks with me that you wrote your letter

449
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: about this isn't Mama Mia right, there's your story, and

450
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: then there's a whole story that happened, which was your

451
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: mom boyfriend, and then she said I need to see

452
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: other people, and she had a different boyfriend, and then

453
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: the other boyfriend maybe didn't know about that boyfriend, we

454
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: don't know, but there was a whole drama going on

455
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,999
Speaker 1: with these three people. There was a whole story going on.

456
00:27:24,879 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: But the fact is that the shadow of that story

457
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: lives on in what's happening right now for your mom

458
00:27:31,679 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: and for everybody. In fact, I wonder how you've made

459
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: sense of your mom's reaction and have you been able

460
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: to take in it all the fact that other people

461
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: in the family on that side are interested in welcoming you.

462
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 4: I don't know how to make sense really, especially as

463
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 4: a mother myself. It's so hard to figure out why

464
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 4: she wouldn't want to be open to a relationship and

465
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 4: why she's so closed off. I have a really hard

466
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 4: time understanding why it's such a hard no for her,

467
00:28:09,439 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 4: With her family being receptive and everything, it just really

468
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,759
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense. And they can't shed any insight themselves.

469
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: They actually don't know, or they can't because they feel

470
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: they need to be loyal to her and they don't

471
00:28:24,639 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: want to share that information with you.

472
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 5: I guess that could be part of it.

473
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 4: I think with one of her siblings, like she's more

474
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 4: open and.

475
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 5: Would say if she had insight.

476
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 4: I get the impression that my podular mother is a

477
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 4: very emotionally closed off person.

478
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,759
Speaker 1: Did you ever know your mom's parents, because it was

479
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: their decision to send her away to have the baby

480
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: do you know more about them or were they open

481
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:56,479
Speaker 1: to meeting you?

482
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I did meet them and they were very open.

483
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 4: I reread all of the initial letters and cards and

484
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 4: everything I got from everyone recently and going through all

485
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: of this, and it was very much like we've been

486
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 4: waiting to do this, We've always thought about you and everything.

487
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 4: And even after things got kind of kaibash by my

488
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: violetical mother and everyone else stopped having contact with me,

489
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 4: there was a period of time where I still would

490
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 4: get letters from her mom and she would send magazine

491
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: subscriptions for my kids. But then it dwindled off, and

492
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,279
Speaker 4: I'm not sure why what happened on their side of things,

493
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 4: you know. One of the painful things in all of

494
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 4: this was when I found the obituary for my grandmother,

495
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 4: and it was really hard to deal with because I

496
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 4: guess I naively always thought that there would be some

497
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: kind of reconciliation or some kind of resolution, or like

498
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 4: no one would be gone permanently before there would be

499
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 4: that opportunity.

500
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: And also by not being notified when your biological grandmother dies,

501
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: there's almost like a there about who is who isn't

502
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 3: part of the family that you don't even get to know,

503
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: and you had been in touch and she had been

504
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: sending these subscriptions to your kids. That must have been

505
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: really difficult.

506
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 4: But it definitely felt like a huge rejection because I

507
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 4: would have thought, at least if someone was sick or dying,

508
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,719
Speaker 4: that I would have been given the opportunity to know

509
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 4: at the very least. And then reading the obituary, which

510
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,719
Speaker 4: then had you know, all the family listed, and my

511
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,519
Speaker 4: name wasn't there, and my kids' names weren't there, So

512
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 4: that was a very hurtful thing to experience.

513
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: I have a question about the relationship between Alan and

514
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: your mom. So when Alan discovered you and then got

515
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: in touch with your mom, had they been in touch

516
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: at all over the years.

517
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 5: After she came back from having me.

518
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 4: They tried to stay together for a period of time,

519
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,519
Speaker 4: and then a month or so after they just found

520
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 4: like the emotion of it was too much. So I

521
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 4: think it was a very painful and emotional breakup for

522
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 4: them in light of the circumstances.

523
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 5: And then that was it, and they just never saw

524
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 5: each other.

525
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,999
Speaker 4: And so I didn't seen each other or talk to

526
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 4: each other or had any kind of insight into each

527
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 4: other for twenty two years and then to be reuniting

528
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: with the child that they had given up, and everything

529
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 4: opened a lot of old booms and.

530
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 5: A lot of people, you know, looking from the outside in.

531
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 4: Said to me after things kind of went downhill that

532
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 4: it seemed like she was more interested in pursuing a

533
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 4: relationship with him than.

534
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: She was with me, even though he was married.

535
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 5: Even though he was married.

536
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: So many hurt feelings all around, are you able to

537
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: focus on yours?

538
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 5: And a person who worries about other people's feelings? And

539
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 5: I think that goes back.

540
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 4: To adoption trauma and always having a worry about being

541
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 4: rejected and people abandoning me. I don't want to self

542
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 4: sabotage on the one hand, and I also don't want

543
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 4: to not consider my own feelings because I have a

544
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 4: tendency to make sure other people are okay and at

545
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 4: my own expense.

546
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,759
Speaker 3: Which of your relationships is the one about which you

547
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: feel most concerned, because I think you mentioned Allan before.

548
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 4: Yes, and I think that is the most important one

549
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 4: to me because their life could have been totally different

550
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 4: if my budgel mother had been honest way back when

551
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 4: you know, it's just been so many years of heartache

552
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 4: for them until they met me, and then it's been

553
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 4: really great, and now it's like this big bomb and

554
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 4: this big betrayal, and so I feel, I guess at

555
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: times like it would be hard for them to even

556
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 4: look at me.

557
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: I want to reframe that, because yes, there was this

558
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: time for twenty two years. That's a long time to

559
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: say I have this child out there and I'm longing

560
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: to connect with that child. That is a lot of

561
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: pain for Alan to have dealt with. But then there's

562
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: the other piece, which is that for all of these

563
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 1: years you have had this beautiful relationship with him and

564
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: his family. You say that when they look at you,

565
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,759
Speaker 1: they see this reminder of trauma and pain, But I

566
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: think that when they look at you, they see love

567
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: and that they love you so much that they are

568
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: afraid of losing you. So I think that what you're

569
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,999
Speaker 1: seeing in them isn't Oh, you know, I want to

570
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: avoid her because she's this reminder of all of this pain.

571
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: But I am so attached to this person, and I'm

572
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: afraid that our relationship is going to be changed in

573
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: a way that is going to be very sad.

574
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 3: And I think it also is related to what you

575
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: said that you have this tendency to worry for other

576
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 3: people's feelings more than your around, and it's possible that

577
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 3: you're assuming something that might not be true. You're assuming

578
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 3: that they're in pain because you're a reminder, but they

579
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: might be in pain because they see you in pain,

580
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 3: and the pain that you might see in their eyes

581
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 3: the pain they see in yours. This ping pong of

582
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 3: pain going back and forth, but not in any way

583
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: related to any kind of regret or you said if

584
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: their lives would have been very different, if this all

585
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 3: wouldn't have happened, it would have it would have been

586
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 3: less rich all around. That seems pretty clear, given the

587
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 3: strength of the relationship over so many years. And so

588
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: I want to caution you not to assume that you

589
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: know what the pain is that they're feeling, and that

590
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: you're the cause of it.

591
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: And it can also be many things at once, like

592
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: with your mother. It might have been very painful for

593
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: your mother to have had a hysterectomy and know that

594
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: she wasn't going to have a child in the way

595
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: that she had imagined, and that when you came into

596
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: the family, and your brother came into the family, and

597
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: you became those children, and you fulfilled that dream for her,

598
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: And so there's that feeling of I got to have

599
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: my kids, and I love my kids so much, and

600
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: now that they've found these other families, are they going

601
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: to leave me? You all have the same fear about

602
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: We all love each other, and there are so many

603
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: different parts of this family, and every single person is

604
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: asking am I going to get left out? Meaning Alan,

605
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: his family, your mother, and maybe even whatever develops with

606
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: your biological dad and his mom, and then there's your

607
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: biological mother. You know, right now the door is really closed,

608
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: but I don't know that that's the end of the story,

609
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: especially because you're in touch with part of her family

610
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: as well. Maybe we can give you some tools for

611
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: how you might talk to say your mom and Alan

612
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: about what your experience is, and also allowing some room

613
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: for you to reassure them a little bit, which isn't

614
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: so much worrying about their feelings, but just to tell

615
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: them about the depth of your feeling for them, so

616
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: that people aren't wondering, there's not this unspoken question lingering

617
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: in the air.

618
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: And I think Christine, one way to do that is

619
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: to share with them that one thing that you've been

620
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 3: thinking about with all of this is what defines family.

621
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 3: And your definition was very specific. It was that the

622
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 3: people who are there for you but consistently, who remain

623
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 3: there for you through the good and the bad, through

624
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: the ups and the downs. And I think if you

625
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: share that and say that your conclusion from all of

626
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 3: this was that by that definition, they are and always

627
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 3: will be your family, and you will always be their family.

628
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 3: And to share that realization with them that after all

629
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: of these years, all of these searching, the ups and

630
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: the downs, and the revelations, that that's what you do know.

631
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: And I think it would be really powerful for you

632
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 3: to share that with them and to see how you

633
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 3: feel in sharing that with them.

634
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 4: I think that's good. I think that would be helpful.

635
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 4: It helps me to think of it that way, like that, this,

636
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 4: like you know, is my family and these are the

637
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 4: reasons why. And so I think for me to tell

638
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 4: tell them that, and you know, for us to discuss that,

639
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 4: I think would probably be good for everyone and the

640
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 4: aftermath of everything that's happened in all of this, so

641
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 4: I think that that would be a good place to

642
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 4: start a conversation about family and what we mean to

643
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 4: each other.

644
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: And it's also a good conversation to have with your

645
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: husband and your kids because they're a part of this too. Yes,

646
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: but to share with them this is where you've landed

647
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: at this moment in time, and I think it will

648
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: help your kids with whatever confusion they might have around

649
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: all of the events, and it will help your husband

650
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: to understand more about you and your experience.

651
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 5: Yes, that's a good point too.

652
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 3: One thing to keep in mind, Christine, based on what

653
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: you've described, it's possible that allan will your mom might

654
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 3: hear what you have to say and probably really appreciate

655
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 3: what you have to say, but feel that it might

656
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: be difficult for them to enter into deeper discussion of it.

657
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: If that's the case, it would be great if you

658
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: could do it on a video call, because you might

659
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: see the reaction in their eyes more than in the

660
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: words they're able to convey to you. If you say

661
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 3: that to them and you see them being very moved

662
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: and very touched but unable to go further into the

663
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: discussion at that time, that that might be sufficient. Not forever, obviously,

664
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 3: but for that moment.

665
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: I think that's a really good point because so much

666
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 4: being back and forth by email or by text, you

667
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 4: really miss out on that human element of it that

668
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 4: is in people's expressions and body language and everything.

669
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they need to see you too, because they

670
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 3: need to see how you feel, and you're conveying that sentiment,

671
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 3: you know. I think that would be useful.

672
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

673
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: And as we're talking about seeing them and having them

674
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: see you, I think there's a metaphor here, which is

675
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: that for a very long time you weren't seen. You

676
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: had all these questions, and you said it was such

677
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: a relief when you've got this information to finally both

678
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: see what the story was and to be seen. And

679
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: so just to keep that in your back pocket, that

680
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 1: idea of how important it is to finally be seen

681
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: and making these calls to them is a way of

682
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: literally and figuratively being seen.

683
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I think that that's important too. I really

684
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 4: appreciated the insight. I think something big for me is

685
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 4: just thinking of the context of sorry emotional of everyone

686
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 4: being scared and the fear that everyone has, and I

687
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 4: think that was a really important frame to put things in.

688
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: You know, the scariest thing for most humans is the

689
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: idea that the love they have will be taken away yes.

690
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: And I think that every single person here, including your

691
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: biological mom, because there's something there, whether it's her son

692
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: who is angry or we don't really know. I think

693
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: every single person is afraid of losing love. And your

694
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: message is wait a minute, this is all about gaining love.

695
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 5: Yes, Yeah, that's great.

696
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 4: The other good point was not assuming what other people

697
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 4: are thinking, and you're thinking the worst with Alan in particular,

698
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 4: they might be thinking something totally positive, like not wanting

699
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 4: to lose me. So I think that's an important shift

700
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: for me to keep in mind too, is navigate this.

701
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

702
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 3: So look, thank you so much for talking with us.

703
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, thank you, Thank you so much, Christine. We

704
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: look forward to hearing back from you.

705
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 5: Thanks.

706
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting here, I'm feeling this heaviness, this pain

707
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 3: of so many people hurting on the one hand, and

708
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: so many people who found love on the other. I'm

709
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: sure she's going to go ahead and do it. The

710
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: people she's going to say it too, will. I hope

711
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: they'll be touched by it. I hope they'll be reassured

712
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 3: by it. I hope they'll be able to verbalize something

713
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 3: in return. They might feel a little overwhelmed. But if

714
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 3: she doesn't get that response in the actual call, I'm

715
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: pretty sure she'll get it thereafter in some way.

716
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

717
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: I think with these kinds of situations, they're evolving, they're

718
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: very live, and it takes time to really figure out

719
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: what it all means when you get new information like

720
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: this on this scale. So I think this is a

721
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: good beginning to not having this guessing game going on

722
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: between I wonder what they're feeling. I wonder how she

723
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: feels about me. But for her to just say I

724
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: want you to know how much I love you, I

725
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: want you to know this is how I think about family,

726
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: and I think that's a great place for her to start.

727
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: So I'm really interested to hear how it felt for

728
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: her to be able to do that. This is Dear Therapist,

729
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: and we'll be back after a short break.

730
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 3: You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio.

731
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: So we heard back from Christine.

732
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: Oh wow, I really hope that went well. Let's give

733
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: it a listen.

734
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 4: Hi, Lari, and I'm just circling back on our conversation

735
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: and my homework and wanted to update you. I had

736
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 4: my face to face conversations with most of my family

737
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 4: members now and it has been really healing. So much

738
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 4: has been skirted around or perhaps lost in translations of messages, emails,

739
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 4: and calls till now. It was really good to get

740
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 4: down to the meat of our feelings for a change

741
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 4: and directly address Elphin that's been in the room since

742
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 4: getting the shocking DNA results. I think they appreciate hearing

743
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 4: my definition of family. What was really powerful was the

744
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: acknowledgment of our mutual fear of loss. Thank you for

745
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 4: surfacing that for all of us. I've really mold over

746
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 4: that fear of loss of love aspect in my head

747
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 4: since talking to you, and has really really helped me

748
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 4: see things through a new lens that makes me feel

749
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: less insecure on a bigger scale. I also think it

750
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 4: helps me see my fellow travelers in life in a

751
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 4: gentler light, knowing we all share that common fear. Thank

752
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 4: you for helping me to get the confidence to navigate

753
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 4: this tumultuous family situation and a new lens to view

754
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 4: things through.

755
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: I love that she got right to the heart of it,

756
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: which is they were all struggling with the same thing

757
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: with I'm worried that I'm going to lose these people

758
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: that I love, and that they were receptive to hearing

759
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: it when she framed it in that way.

760
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 3: And I think what's really powerful was that we spoke

761
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: just to her. But this is what happens in therapy

762
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 3: as well. When somebody gains a certain insight that's related

763
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 3: to their family, it really has a ripple effect and

764
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: it can impact an entire system, and in this case,

765
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 3: a really complex system. And so they all had that

766
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 3: awakening in a way.

767
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: Right if just one person opens up a conversation that

768
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: nobody knew how to broach, what a relief it is

769
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: for everybody to have, as she said, the elephant in

770
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: the room out in the open. And now people could

771
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: say me too, I feel that way too, or I'm

772
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: so glad you brought this up because because I was

773
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: feeling this and I didn't know how to talk about it,

774
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: and I was scared. And I think that scared is

775
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: important because there was a lot of fear on all sides.

776
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: Everybody was just so afraid of losing something. And once

777
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: you can voice that fear, then you can say, oh,

778
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: wait a minute, maybe that fear is unfounded. We actually

779
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: don't want anything to happen.

780
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 3: To the bonds that we have right Once you remove

781
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 3: the fear, what you're left with is the love that

782
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: brings us to the end of our show for this week,

783
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,

784
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: please take a moment to rate and review it.

785
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

786
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

787
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

788
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

789
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

790
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us big email us at Lorianguy

791
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 3: at iHeartMedia dot com.

792
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis were produced and edited by

793
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

794
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

795
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 3: Next week, a teacher talks to us about the challenges

796
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 3: of being physically separated from her students.

797
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 6: I have students who, when it comes up at the

798
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 6: end of the hour, will say, I can't believe this

799
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 6: is almost over. This is the time during the week

800
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 6: that I don't feel lonely and that's just heartbreaking.

801
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio