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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: There's Charles W Chuck, Brian Jerry's not here, but all

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Speaker 1: of these beautiful people are at the Castro Theater at

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, California. Yeah. I love it. Very nice, very nice.

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Speaker 1: Got a Chucker sign out there. I think I know

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Speaker 1: who that is. It's pretty great. It's a good sign,

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Speaker 1: it is. Thanks mom. Oh, we're definitely not gosing. So uh,

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Speaker 1: we've asked you all here tonight to talk about being

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Speaker 1: a child of the Are this for us? Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. Okay, let's just start over. I thought she

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Speaker 1: was like, I'm just gonna put my stuff up here. So, um,

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Speaker 1: if Chuck and I are children of the seventies and eighties,

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Speaker 1: he was born in the very very very early seventies.

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Speaker 1: I was born in the mid seventies, and I mean

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Speaker 1: it might as well have been the sixties basically. I

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Speaker 1: mean you were right there on the cusp um and

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Speaker 1: being children of this era, we were aware of certain things,

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Speaker 1: like all kids of the seventies and eighties were um,

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Speaker 1: like that vans could have carpeting on the wall, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: every kid knew the precise amount of McDonald's orange drink

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Speaker 1: that he or she could drink just before getting a

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Speaker 1: crippling stomachache. That's like seventies eighties kid knowledge, um or

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Speaker 1: that your parents um like to go to swinger parties

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Speaker 1: where there were keys and fish bowls and weird stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, and did your parents don't do that? And

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Speaker 1: every kid of the seventies and eighties knew that somewhere

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Speaker 1: out there there was a guerrilla named Coco who could talk.

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Speaker 1: And if you've never heard of Coco, prepared to buckle

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Speaker 1: up and have your mind blown, because that is what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about tonight. Coco. They're talking Grilla who is

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Speaker 1: a local here as I'm sure you guys know, this

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Speaker 1: is actually a super local show. It is, Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: Coco the Gorilla was born fourth of July, just like

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Speaker 1: Haraldo Rivera and Malia Obama and a bunch of other

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Speaker 1: people I haven't heard of when I looked it up online.

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Speaker 1: My dad was born on the fourth of July. Yes,

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Speaker 1: why didn't you say that the other night? I just

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Speaker 1: didn't feel like it all right, Tom Cruise was if

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Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, I think that was the for the

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Speaker 1: movie he had that he had been born for that movie.

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Speaker 1: He's just so good my body. Yeah, you really sold it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Coco was born in the fourth of July one, just

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Speaker 1: four months after yours truly was born. There would be

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Speaker 1: a lot of mirroring here between my development and Cocos.

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Speaker 1: Coco was born at the San Francisco Zoo. Yeah, six

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Speaker 1: point one miles from here. And what was Coco's birth

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Speaker 1: name in full, Hanna be Co. So Coco is actually

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Speaker 1: your nickname, and Hanna Biko in Japanese means fireworks child.

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Speaker 1: She was named that after the fireworks going off. You

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Speaker 1: think that's cute on the fourth of July. Just wait yeah,

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Speaker 1: if that's got you all in already, man, you guys

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Speaker 1: are gonna love this one. So Coco was a Western

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Speaker 1: Lowland gorilla, which was a and still is a critically

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Speaker 1: endangered subspecies of guerrilla in Central West Africa. And Coco

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Speaker 1: was born into a world in the nineties seventies here

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Speaker 1: in the United States, especially where people I thought two

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Speaker 1: things about guerrillas. They thought they were super scary because

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Speaker 1: literally because of King Kong, the movies kind of like

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Speaker 1: Jaws with sharks they two very huggable animals. Movies ruined

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Speaker 1: it basically, and they thought guerrillas were scary, and they

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Speaker 1: thought gorillas were really dumb, like duh um, dumb like

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Speaker 1: even among apes. I thought gorillas were dumb exactly um.

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Speaker 1: And so this is the world that Coco was born into.

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Speaker 1: And when she was born at the San Francisco Zoo um,

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Speaker 1: she had kind of a difficult infancy. Her mom wasn't

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Speaker 1: producing enough milk to sustain her, and then when she

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Speaker 1: was I think six months old, she caught dysentery. She

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Speaker 1: developed dysentery and was basically at death store and had

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Speaker 1: to be removed from her family unit so that she

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Speaker 1: could be nursed back to health by humans who took

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Speaker 1: care of her around the clock, which is right sure,

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Speaker 1: because they actually did save her life. But they had

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Speaker 1: a problem after she recovered, and that was that she

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Speaker 1: had spent so much time away from her family unit

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Speaker 1: and hanging out with humans instead that they were worried

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Speaker 1: that her family unit would reject her if they took

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Speaker 1: her back. So now they kind of had a problem

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Speaker 1: on their hands, and they had a gorilla, Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: gorilla in the room. So a great movie it's fantastic.

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Speaker 1: So there was a Stanford grad student around this time.

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Speaker 1: It's bad joke, Jerry cut that one out already, already.

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Speaker 1: I've only got three of those for the whole show,

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Speaker 1: so you guys keep score. There was a Stanford grad

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Speaker 1: student around this time that came on the scene, twenty

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Speaker 1: four year old young woman named Francine Penny Patterson. She

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Speaker 1: entered Coco's life at this moment when Coco needed her most,

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Speaker 1: and she said, you know what, I'm studying apes, and

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Speaker 1: I think that I can teach guerrillas how to speak

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Speaker 1: use sign language. You've got a guerrilla. I need my PhD.

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Speaker 1: This is all kind of perfect as that's a verbatim

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Speaker 1: quote from that moment. So she took control of Cocoa's

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Speaker 1: care and for the next fortysomething years. Uh, they had

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Speaker 1: a relationship that can really only be described as human

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Speaker 1: mother and guerilla daughter very much. So, yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: And so the whole point of trying to teach Cocoa

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Speaker 1: or any guerrilla sign language was um to find out

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Speaker 1: how or if a guerrilla could acquire language, and then

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Speaker 1: compare how a guerrilla acquires language to how kids human

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Speaker 1: kids acquire language. And then we can kind of compare

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Speaker 1: and contrast the differences and kind of trace back humans

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Speaker 1: evolutionary history for how we developed language, because it's still

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Speaker 1: a mystery. We don't really know why. We just know

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Speaker 1: we seem to be the only species capable of using language. Try.

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Speaker 1: Plus it's a good party trick, right, And it was

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Speaker 1: the seventies. Yeah, so at first, Cocoa and Penny we're

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Speaker 1: working to other at the San Francisco Zoo. But it's

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Speaker 1: a zoo and there were people that were, you know,

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Speaker 1: paying money to get in there and gawk at them.

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Speaker 1: A lot of slack jawn yokels like John Yokels at

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Speaker 1: the San Francisco Zoo and uh, look, yeah, what was

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Speaker 1: my favorite line? Never mind, I can't get off track

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Speaker 1: this early. We'll save the Simpsons for later. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: people were gawking and that's very distracting to a young gorilla.

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Speaker 1: So she said, you know what, this is going pretty well,

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Speaker 1: but I think I could do a lot better with

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Speaker 1: my research and for Cocoa's benefit, if we moved Cocoa

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Speaker 1: to Stanford. And they basically said, sure you can. Um,

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Speaker 1: you can take Cocoa on loan and go do some

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Speaker 1: serious research at Stanford University right right where there's a

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Speaker 1: lot more dope to be smoked. San Francisco zoo, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. I'm sure we've got some Stanford

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Speaker 1: grads here, so uh yeah, oh really really that's surprising.

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Speaker 1: Go cardinals. I thought it was giant trees, is there? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a little clunky, so okay, um so uh

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Speaker 1: so they moved to Stanford officially launched Project Coco, and

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Speaker 1: Coco suddenly is surrounded by a bunch of interesting people

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Speaker 1: who are giving her their undivided attention. And she's raised

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Speaker 1: in kind of this way that's similar to how you

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Speaker 1: would raise a human child, like an ideal homeschool sitting,

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Speaker 1: where like everything is about her and teaching her stuff

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Speaker 1: and playing with her and keeping her attention going. And

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Speaker 1: she really started to kind of thrive in this this environment,

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Speaker 1: and she started to pick up sign language pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: In her first two weeks of being taught sign an

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Speaker 1: adapted form of American sign language, she knew food, drink,

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Speaker 1: and more. And really the last one is the most

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Speaker 1: important one. But she picked up these signs within two weeks.

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Speaker 1: And again, remember bear this in mind this whole time.

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Speaker 1: Anytime we say something amazing about Coco. Imagine that at

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Speaker 1: the time when she's doing this stuff, She's the first

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Speaker 1: gorilla doing this stuff and just amazing seen the world

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Speaker 1: because we thought grillas were scary, stupid, just bury the

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Speaker 1: mind stunned. Silence. Was not what I was going for,

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Speaker 1: but I'll take it. I'll take it whatever I can

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Speaker 1: get from you guys. So things were going well at Stanford,

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Speaker 1: but she said, you know what, this is great, but

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Speaker 1: I think we even need more space than they have

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Speaker 1: at Stanford for a gorilla. And so she founded the

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Speaker 1: Guerilla Foundation and move Cocoa and Project Cocoa to a

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Speaker 1: six acre private facility that uh basically had a mobile

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Speaker 1: home for Coco to live in, and that's where Coco

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Speaker 1: lived her life. They retrofitted it so, you know, they

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Speaker 1: had to make the walls a little stronger. Over the

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Speaker 1: years is Cocoa grew and they made it so a

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Speaker 1: gorilla could live in this trailer and she loved it

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Speaker 1: was her house. She made her little nest out of

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Speaker 1: blankets every night, and had a tire to sit in,

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Speaker 1: and had like all sorts of toys to play and

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Speaker 1: TV to watch a lot more than I had for sure,

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Speaker 1: although you did have to make a nest of blankets

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Speaker 1: every night in your house, it's true. Or had you

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Speaker 1: let that man touch your beard, that would have been

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Speaker 1: your future. I think that's true. Coco was learning faster

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Speaker 1: than I was anyways. Yeah, but you had that innate

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Speaker 1: like don't let them do it. Don't let them do it.

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Speaker 1: So uh. Coco was taught sign language using a couple

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Speaker 1: of different techniques. There's one called the molding technique. But

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Speaker 1: they would literally take Coco's hand and shape her hand

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Speaker 1: in the shape of the sign and do the sign

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Speaker 1: while they're either saying the word or showing a picture

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Speaker 1: of the object or whatever or both. Um. I know

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Speaker 1: you have an example that you're pretty good at. Do

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Speaker 1: the cat. The sign for cat is where you like

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Speaker 1: kind of demonstrate whiskers. You draw whiskers across your face.

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Speaker 1: So you would take you take Coco's hand and squish

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Speaker 1: these together, ship these two right there you go, and

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Speaker 1: then just be like cat cat You're like the guy

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Speaker 1: in the sky lounge all of a sudden, right, so creepy.

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Speaker 1: But that was so that was the molding technique. The

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Speaker 1: other one, invitation, is way simpler. It's just you know,

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Speaker 1: you would show her cat, cat cat, and she would

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Speaker 1: eventually be like, and you go, yes, cat cat cat.

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Speaker 1: Stop God, so annoying. That's what Coco would have said

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Speaker 1: to I got it, I got it, Okay Stop. So

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Speaker 1: within the Coco's first four and a half year she

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Speaker 1: went through a couple of big language growth spurts. She

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Speaker 1: added about two hundred new words to her vocabulary each year,

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Speaker 1: again way faster than I was uh. And she was

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Speaker 1: developing language basically at about the rate of um a

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Speaker 1: child eight months behind. Cocoa a human child, right, but

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Speaker 1: she was acquiring signs at about the same rate as

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Speaker 1: a deaf child her age, which is pretty astounding, especially

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Speaker 1: considering she wasn't taught sign language until she was one,

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Speaker 1: and she wasn't exposed to English until she was about

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Speaker 1: six months old, so she kind of started from behind

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Speaker 1: and started as a gorilla. But she was still picking

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Speaker 1: up language at about the same pace as human children.

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Speaker 1: And this is just knocking everybody's socks off. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: So Coco, I think, had a working vocabulary by the

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Speaker 1: time she was an adult of about six hundred signs

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Speaker 1: and then spontaneously used another four hundred, so that's a

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Speaker 1: thousand signs and then could apparently understand about two hundred

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, two thousand words of English, right, so she

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Speaker 1: could understand two thousand words, she could sign about a thousand.

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Speaker 1: And in the middle of sort of this early period

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Speaker 1: is where Penny Patterson became doctor Penny Patterson. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: got her pH d from Stanford and I think seventy

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Speaker 1: nine or something like that, and Project Coco continued, right, um,

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that Coco taught the world

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Speaker 1: is that not only could she understand sign language and

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Speaker 1: use signs, she could actually use this to do things

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Speaker 1: that we thought only humans could do, like joke around.

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Speaker 1: Like there's this really good example of her making a joke.

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Speaker 1: It's a gorilla level joke, but it's a joke. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: it's still qualifies you want to just sort of a

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Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck level joke. So they would go in

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Speaker 1: with a white towel and try and get Cocoa to

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Speaker 1: sign white, and Cocoa kept signing red, red, red, and

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Speaker 1: they were like, no, Cocoa, what color is the towel? Red? Red, red? No, Cocoa,

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Speaker 1: what color is a towel? I'm just kidding. They were

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Speaker 1: very kind, and Coco eventually went over and picked a

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Speaker 1: red piece of lent off the towel and held it

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Speaker 1: up and said red, red, red, and laughed and laughed

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Speaker 1: and laughed, and everyone just it was pretty much the

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Speaker 1: best joke of all time. Well, it definitely qualifies as

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Speaker 1: a joke. We did not know that gorillas were capable

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Speaker 1: of joking. She also knew how to lie. That's actually

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Speaker 1: kind of sophisticated. As wrong as it is, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of sophisticated intellectually. We didn't realize gorilla not gonna make

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Speaker 1: any true at all about the human sophistication it takes

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Speaker 1: to lie. It just kind of instantly it rights itself.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: get political. So there was there was a time when

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Speaker 1: Coco broke the kitchen sink in her in her little kitchen,

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Speaker 1: and later on Penny asked her what happened, and Coco said,

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Speaker 1: Kate did it, which is the first lie children tell,

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Speaker 1: literally is Kate didn't. Yeah, Kate, it's always right. But

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Speaker 1: she like threw her caregiver under the bus, which is

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Speaker 1: very human if you think about it, you know, she

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Speaker 1: was like Kate did it, you should fire her. She

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Speaker 1: was also pretty good at making an improv basically and

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Speaker 1: making up signs for things that she didn't know the

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Speaker 1: signs for. For instance, a mask was an eye hat.

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Speaker 1: It's not bad, it's fairly cute. A zebra she called

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Speaker 1: a white tiger because she didn't know the sign for zebra.

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Speaker 1: Not bad. Why they're gonna lose their minds when you

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Speaker 1: know what enters the picture. A ring was a finger bracelet.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty good. And a Pinocchio doll was an elephant. Baby,

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Speaker 1: this is a gorilla. Everybody, not bad, not bad at all.

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Speaker 1: She also had are you asking me literally? If you

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Speaker 1: should say that? I think you should? Don't you tell

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Speaker 1: everyone about Coco's insults? So so prepared to aweso more. Um.

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Speaker 1: She had her own little vocabulary of insults like bird

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Speaker 1: and nut like you're a bird, you're a nut. That

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Speaker 1: was their insults. Um it got even better, rotten stink.

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Speaker 1: It's also a good punk band name, it is pretty good,

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Speaker 1: dirty toilet, toilet, dirty devil, and um face mother, that

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Speaker 1: was that was the one. I'm sorry, I apologize before.

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Speaker 1: I'll just apologize now as well. That's gonna sound so

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Speaker 1: sweet beeped out. When we end up releasing this episode,

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Speaker 1: please come back. I said, I was sorry, and I

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Speaker 1: love in the middle of it. You look over at

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Speaker 1: me and point to f F f F and you go,

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Speaker 1: I want I wanted you to be on the hook

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Speaker 1: as well as me. All Right, that's it. That's all

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Speaker 1: the dirty language it was. It was worth it. That's

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Speaker 1: a good quality joke you get because see Coco didn't

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Speaker 1: really say that. That was Josh. So here's the deal though.

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Speaker 1: We we talked so far about Coco insulting people and

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Speaker 1: making jokes and throwing people under the bus, but that

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Speaker 1: was not Coco's nature. Coca was actually very sweet gorilla.

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Speaker 1: And everyone who came into Coco, especially Dr Patterson, loved, loved,

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Speaker 1: loved this gorilla. Yes, um, And so in nineteen six,

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Speaker 1: this Guerrilla Foundation expanded, the little family grew a little

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Speaker 1: bigger when they brought in a guerrilla male named Michael,

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Speaker 1: and um, Michael was weird. It's a weird name for

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Speaker 1: a gorilla. It's kind of like have you ever seen

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Speaker 1: somebody where you meet someone's dog and they're like, this

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Speaker 1: is James or Alan or something like that. Like you

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Speaker 1: can use a human name for a dog, but it's

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Speaker 1: got to be just slightly off. I'm trying to think

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Speaker 1: or for a name you could give a dog. Alan

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Speaker 1: is pretty close, Edwards, Larry is pretty good Larry. But no,

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Speaker 1: if it was like a big sloppy bulldog named Larry,

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Speaker 1: you'd be like, of course, Larry. James, though, who would

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Speaker 1: name a dog James? For Jennifer is a pretty good

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Speaker 1: name for a dog, right, Yeah, Nah, Chuck's that's a

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Speaker 1: good dog name too. She Chuck is on the cusp

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Speaker 1: of being goofy. Anyway, all right, that's another everybody shouting

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Speaker 1: at the stage. We didn't ask for this anyway. Michael

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Speaker 1: comes into the picture, Michael the gorilla, and he also

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Speaker 1: learned American sign language too, and he picked it up

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Speaker 1: pretty well. Not quite as as well as Cocoa, but

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Speaker 1: still very well. Um. He was also enculturated, which means

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Speaker 1: that he was raised basically as a human um and

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Speaker 1: and not as a gorilla, which means that you like

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Speaker 1: to listen to Pavarotti and paint very seriously. They both painted, actually,

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Speaker 1: but Michael took it very seriously. But one of the

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Speaker 1: big findings from Project Coco is that they found that

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Speaker 1: Michael and Coco would sign to one another unprompted. They

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Speaker 1: would just communicate through sign and that each one taught

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Speaker 1: the other signs that the humans hadn't taught them. Right,

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Speaker 1: So Michael learned some stuff from humans that Coco hadn't

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Speaker 1: and he went and talked Coco and vice versa, which

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Speaker 1: is pretty big. Yeah, it's big. It's cute and a

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Speaker 1: little creepy, especially if they developed their own sign language.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty good. You got the chloroform. We should also

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Speaker 1: mention there was there's if you've seen the documentary, there's

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Speaker 1: one on Netflix called Coco. I think the gorilla who

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Speaker 1: could Talk. It might be that on the nose. There's

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Speaker 1: a colon in there somewhere. Yeah, from the BBC uh.

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Speaker 1: And there's a man in that documentary you see a lot.

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Speaker 1: His name is Ron Cone. He came on the projects

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Speaker 1: very early on to document all this via camera and videotape,

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Speaker 1: and it stuck around through the whole project because he

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Speaker 1: was clearly in love with Benny Patterson. That was the

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Speaker 1: whole subtext of that documentary the whole time. I was

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Speaker 1: like even says, at the very beginning, he was like fault.

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Speaker 1: She was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in

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Speaker 1: my life. Yeah, I was like, oh, I really feel

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Speaker 1: bad for the feel bad for m. That's an extra

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Speaker 1: kind of like a subplot to the document. Totally was.

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Speaker 1: But Ron wasn't a gorilla, so he had no shot.

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Speaker 1: He would even dress up like one sometimes and I

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Speaker 1: just didn't work. So the word got around, as it

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Speaker 1: does in around Woodside, California, where this gorilla foundation was,

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Speaker 1: that there was a gorilla in their midst Its terrible,

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Speaker 1: all right, I would ask all of you not to

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Speaker 1: encourage him. And by the way, this is just neither

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Speaker 1: here nor there. But today where Coco lived is just

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Speaker 1: a two minute drive from a Ross dress for less.

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Speaker 1: This is one of Asha's when you when Josh puts

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Speaker 1: together these uh these things, you get these interesting little

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Speaker 1: factoids like that it's like two minutes away. There's a

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Speaker 1: couple of them in every single one. Like other people

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Speaker 1: who are sitting there like smelling soap, like realized that

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Speaker 1: two minutes away there's a guerrilla foundation where there's sign

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Speaker 1: language using guerrillas. Probably not, I don't think so, probably not. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And by nineteen seventy eight, the world was introduced to

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Speaker 1: Coco in a big way when Coco made her first

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Speaker 1: appearance of what would be Too on the cover of

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Speaker 1: National Geographic magazine. Uh. And if you've seen this very

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Speaker 1: famous photo, what you see is as a gorilla holding

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Speaker 1: a camera and you think, oh, that's cute, and when

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Speaker 1: you look closely, you realize that the Olympus camera is

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Speaker 1: backwards and Coco had taken her own picture in a

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Speaker 1: mirror and was the photographer of note for National Geographics

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Speaker 1: and it's like, it's a well framed photograph, she's using

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Speaker 1: it correctly, and yeah, it ended up on the cover

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Speaker 1: the first Yeah, sure, sure, I was trying to avoid

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Speaker 1: using that word, but yes, that's what it was. The

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Speaker 1: second cover though, so that introduced the world to to Cocoa.

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Speaker 1: Inside there was like a pretty substantial article written by

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Speaker 1: Penny basically describing Project Coco and how it was going,

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Speaker 1: and everybody's like, wow, this is amazing. But in seven

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Speaker 1: years later she was on the cover again, and this

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Speaker 1: time the world just fell in love with Coco because

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Speaker 1: in the cover photo, uh, Coco is cradling her kitten.

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Speaker 1: Her kitten, not a kitten, Coco's kitten, because Coco had

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Speaker 1: a kitten, and that is what this whole this whole

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Speaker 1: issue was about Yeah, it was, it's super cute. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that inner specs mingling

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Speaker 1: is kind of like the best thing on the internet.

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Speaker 1: I could look at that stuff all day. I do

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Speaker 1: sometimes imily. I just sit around and it's like, there's

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Speaker 1: a parrot with an alligator that adorable. They love each other.

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Speaker 1: They looked, you can't do it with reptiles. No, not easily,

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Speaker 1: never cute. I have seen some cute reptile stuff, but

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Speaker 1: it's few and far between. Like a snake cuddling a turtle.

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Speaker 1: That's no cuddle. Oh, sorry to break it to you.

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Speaker 1: I got to rethink this stuff I look at on

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Speaker 1: the internet. So Coco, uh, maybe because Coco had been

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Speaker 1: taught the word cat um incessantly cat loved I love

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Speaker 1: cats and wanted to kitten, and for for one I

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Speaker 1: think it was birthday or Christmas one year, they gave

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Speaker 1: Coco a very realistic stuffy kitten and that that didn't

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Speaker 1: work because Coco's no dummy, and they're like, all right,

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Speaker 1: I guess we gotta go for it and do the

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Speaker 1: real thing. So they brought in a litter of kittens

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Speaker 1: and had Coco pick one out. Um, she smashed all

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Speaker 1: but one, and that was the lefty kittens. True not true.

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Speaker 1: Now she picked out a little uh, a little tabby Manx.

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Speaker 1: Manxes don't have or Manx, I don't have tails. My

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Speaker 1: brother's got a Manx of course because he's my brother. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And so Manx didn't have a tail. And so Coco

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Speaker 1: named this little ball of fluff all Ball, and then

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Speaker 1: cut That was the name of Coco's kitten. And all

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Speaker 1: Ball himself was a pretty interesting cat. Um. He had

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Speaker 1: been abandoned. His whole litter had been by his mother,

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Speaker 1: and so he was nursed by a dog for like

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Speaker 1: four and a half weeks. Not only just a dog,

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Speaker 1: a Karen Terrier, which is the same breed as Toto

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Speaker 1: from the Wizard of Oz. And then he wanted to

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Speaker 1: become the pet cat of a talking gorilla. What is

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Speaker 1: going on? Trigger warning everybody. All Ball died, All Ball

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Speaker 1: got out, I was hit by car and killed. I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to have to tell you that, but that's

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Speaker 1: what happened. All Ball got out, got smashed to buy

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Speaker 1: a car, and Penny told Cocoa this, We didn't hit

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Speaker 1: him with our car. Why are you guessed to say

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Speaker 1: the same thing twice, probably yeah, and really just crowned

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Speaker 1: them in there, changed your name to all tire. I

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00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: can't believe I said that I love cats. I have

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Speaker 1: two cats. That was way worse than what I said,

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Speaker 1: way worse. I was not on the hook without a

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Speaker 1: garbage podcaster, garbage human. Sorry. I think he just got

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Speaker 1: up and left something, so uh, Penny had to break

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00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: it to Coco, obviously, because this was Coco's best little buddy,

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Speaker 1: and Coco, it's awful. For about ten minutes, she just

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Speaker 1: turned her back and like a child, Wood ignored everything,

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Speaker 1: like you know, I didn't hear that basically, And then

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Speaker 1: later on Coco uh started whimpering and making the sad

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Speaker 1: gorilla depressed gorilla sounds and I can't even say this

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Speaker 1: next part. You've got to Then eventually she signed sleep cat.

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Speaker 1: I know, and I think it's so sorry. This is

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Speaker 1: a great place to put an ad if you ask me. So,

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Speaker 1: if you guys will bear with us, we're going to

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Speaker 1: take a message break all right, we're back. Everybody you've

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Speaker 1: seen us before that it's like a roller coaster of emotions.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if you remember where we were

422
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: all ball has just been killed. Um you should not

423
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: feel too bad, though, because Coco had two more sets

424
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: of kittens throughout her long life. Uh, Lipstick and Smoky

425
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 1: and Miss Black and Miss Gray. So Coco loved her kittens.

426
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: She did. And I don't know what happened to the

427
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: rest of them. Don't ask, is what I say. Um. So,

428
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: Coco had become a celebrity, and being a celebrity, other

429
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: celebrities wanted to be around her. Uh not. The least

430
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: of what was William Shatner, who was among the first

431
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: to go visit Coco. Apparently he wrote about it in

432
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: his autobiography that it was kind of a publicity stunt

433
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: and he was scared to death about going to meet

434
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: this gorilla like one on one, but he was determined

435
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: he was gonna do it. And then Coco touched his

436
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: genitals during their meaning it's true. He kept his little

437
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: Shatners kid over here. It looks painful. She's touching my balls.

438
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: That wasn't even know how to do. So. I worked

439
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: with Shatner on a on a Cheerios commercial. I worked

440
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: with Shatner. Yeah he what Someone just yelled out a

441
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: bad name about him. He was nice to day I

442
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: worked with him. I don't know. I mean, I'm not

443
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: a star Trek guy, but he was. He was a

444
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: nice guy, all right, ma'am, you need to quit calling

445
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: me names. So, uh, Fred Rogers, Mr Rogers also paid

446
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: a little visit, right yeah. And I don't know if

447
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 1: you guys have seen the Mr. Rogers documentary, but this

448
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: is in that documentary And if you look closely, Mr

449
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: Rogers looks kind of scared too, but he's he's like, no,

450
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: I'm going through with this. But he's just a little

451
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: like over eager to take, you know, direction from Penny Patterson.

452
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: He's just a little nervous, especially when Coco cradles him

453
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: like a baby, which she did. It's very cute. And

454
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: it gets even better because Coco and Michael were both

455
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: big fans of Mr Rogers neighborhood, so when he showed up,

456
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: they freaked out because there's Mr Rogers and Coco took

457
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: his shoes off like she'd seen him do so many

458
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: times before. And it's better or better. Yes, I'm serious. So, uh,

459
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: Coco also got visits on separate occasion. I think from

460
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: both Flee and Sting. I don't think they came together, right,

461
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: I don't think so. They've been doing a little lunch,

462
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: the little shopping at Ross Dress for lesson. They made

463
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: their way over to the Gorilla found maybe so things

464
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: like why are you always just buying tidy Whitey's and

465
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: tube socks? A little red hot chili peppers. Humor got

466
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: it well dated, it still works. Uh. They both let

467
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: them let Coco um play their bases. They both brought

468
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: their bases and let Cocoa slap at a base. Peter

469
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: Gabriel showed up, Yes he does situations like this. Um

470
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: America's beloved treasure, Betty White went and visited. Uh. And

471
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: Betty White was a board member of the Guerrilla Foundation.

472
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 1: So if you didn't love her enough before, love her

473
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: even more now. And Um, Coco was a fan of

474
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: the Golden Girls, so they were fans of one another.

475
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: Course Leo DiCaprio paid a visit. He heard there was

476
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: a young lady that uh, he should meet, and all

477
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: of this is in the documentary, all these various visits

478
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: and and Leo's he's, he's he didn't even get in

479
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: the cage at least from this, like Coco has her

480
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: hand through there and he's just kind of like stroking

481
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 1: her fingers, not even with his fingertips, like with his knuckle,

482
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: his knuckle, I think with an assistance knuckle actually, um.

483
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: But of course, the most memorable visit was Robin Williams

484
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: back in two thousand one h of course San Francisco's own.

485
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: You've probably seen this footage. If you haven't, go watch it,

486
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: because like, go watch it right now. We'll wait. Yeah,

487
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: if if, if only we had a big screen behind

488
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: us where we could show this stuff, how can we

489
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: how can we ever do it? Yeah, that would require

490
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: ten percent more effort. This is not gonna happen. We

491
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: challenge you instead to use your imagination. That's right, the

492
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: world of the mind everyone. So Robin Williams is the

493
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: perfect person to go visit Coco because Robin Williams was

494
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: not scared like a Shatner, He was not intimidated like

495
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: a Mr. Rogers, He was not disappointed that it wasn't

496
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: a human like Leo DiCaprio. He was Robin Williams. And

497
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: he gets in there and just wants to play with

498
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: an ape on that level, gets down on the floor.

499
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: They're rolling around their tickle fighting Coco takes off his

500
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: glasses and puts them on and looks out the window,

501
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: and you can just tell that he is legit having

502
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: like one of the best times of his life. Yeah,

503
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: he was definitely into it for sure. UM. And later

504
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 1: on he uh, he was telling the story on one

505
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: of the late night shows, I can't remember which one,

506
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: and he said that they told him that, Um, Coco

507
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: had indicated that she wanted to mate with him, and

508
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: Robin Williams said it would have made a good story,

509
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: which if if you let that just kind of sit

510
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: for a little while, like it's like what And years later,

511
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: when Robin Williams passed away, they had to break the

512
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: news to Coco as well, and Coco signed a woman

513
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: crying and it was very sad, which is pretty astounding

514
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: because Coco met Robin Williams. I mean, she watched his

515
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: movies and everything, but she met him once, like thirteen

516
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: years before his death, and so for her to be

517
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: affected by it, that's extraordinarily significant. UM. And because Coco

518
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: had people like Leo DiCaprio and William Shaton are coming

519
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: to visit the world watched everything she did, and she

520
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: became an ambassador for Earth like just this a natural

521
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: ambassador because here's a gorilla who can communicate with humans,

522
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: and um, grilla come from nature, so why not just

523
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: have her talk for nature. And that's exactly what happened.

524
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: She became an ambassador for plan at Earth. Basically. Yeah,

525
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: it was at a very good time for that too.

526
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: It was here in America, was in the early eighties

527
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: when we were just starting to kind of come around

528
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: to uh, the green movement a little bit more and

529
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: Earth Day became a bigger and bigger deal. So it's

530
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: kind of prime time for Cocoa to step in there. Um.

531
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: I think Penny Patterson wrote a book called Coco's Kitten.

532
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it ended in a in a car crash.

533
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: I hope not. No, there was stuffed Coco gorillas. I

534
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: believe they still are. And like I said, she and

535
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: Michael both painted, so they started selling prints of their paintings.

536
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: And Coco's painting of a bird it looks like a bird.

537
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: It's pretty amazing. I mean, you can't tell what kind

538
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: of bird it is or anything like that, and you

539
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: have to squint and again use your imagination, but you

540
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: can say, yes, that is a bird. I can tell

541
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: have you ever held a chimp or anything or been

542
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: around one. Yeah, I have, I've been. I I have

543
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: held I'm not quite sure what kind of um ape

544
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: it was, but a little little sweet one in address

545
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 1: who was very cute. And then, um, where was this done?

546
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: In Florida? Everybody's walks around with apes that you can

547
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: hold in Florida. And then one time I was in

548
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: Mexico and I was walking down the street and I

549
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: passed a courtyard, a gated courtyard, and there was a

550
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: chimp like on a leash that it could swing around

551
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: the courtyard in and I was like, well, I have

552
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: to stop and talk to his chimp. So I did,

553
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: and the chimp put his hand on my shoulder and squeezed,

554
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: not painfully, but this chimp was in charge of me

555
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 1: right then and then stared more deeply into my soul

556
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: than any other being has before. And I'm just sitting

557
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: there with like cartoon sweat jumping off of my head.

558
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: And finally I realized he wasn't going to stop this

559
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: at any point in time, so I just, one finger

560
00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: at a time slowly backed away. And then after, you know,

561
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: ten minutes later, I was like, I gotta go see

562
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: my chim friend again and they had closed the door. Yeah,

563
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: that's what I said to I worked another TV commercial

564
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: with a chimp one time, and uh, it was it

565
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: was a lifelong dream to hold a chimp. I always

566
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: wanted to. And so I went to the trainer and said,

567
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: can I hold the chimp? And she was like, of course.

568
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: And so I hold this baby chimp and it wraps

569
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: his legs around me, in arms around me, swearing a

570
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: little diaper um for you know, for a good reason.

571
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: I don't think it was just to be cute. I think,

572
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't want this chimp booping and being

573
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: on people wearing a diaper and clothing. Just a diaper.

574
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: It's okay, So that's all right, as long as it's

575
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: not like a diaper and shut. That's a terrible combination.

576
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: Just a diaper and yeah that's no good. That's not

577
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: a good look. Human chimp doesn't matter. Yeah, you're right.

578
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: But then later we were having our production meeting before

579
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 1: the job, where everyone kind of stands around and walks

580
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: through what we're gonna do for the day. And I

581
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: was standing there, you guys, and I felt it before

582
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: I saw it. This chimp walked up and held my hand.

583
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: And I looked down and this little chip is looking

584
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: up at me and just holds my hand. Best thing

585
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: that ever happened to me. And I'm married with a

586
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: human child. Yeah, yeah, that's all right. She didn't listen

587
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: to podcast. So, um, where are we here? We are right?

588
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: So Coco is an ambassador for Earth at a time

589
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: where we're becoming more eco conscious, coining dorky terms like

590
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: eco conscious, and she's like the ambassador for Earth. Um.

591
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: You have to remember, though, she didn't necessarily think of

592
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: herself this way, So just keep that in mind, because um,

593
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: she took part in the first ever inter species internet

594
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: chat hosted by America on Line. It does not get

595
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: more than now very Here was the setup, Okay, So

596
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: there was a a o L moderator who was the

597
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: one working in the chat room on the phone with Penny,

598
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: who was at the Guerrilla Foundation, And so the AOL

599
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: moderator would relay questions over the phone to Penny. Penny

600
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: would ask the question or sign the question to Coco

601
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: and then tell the moderator the Coco's response, and then

602
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: the moderator would type it in. And so when this

603
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: whole setup was explained to Coco. Coco said, Nipple just

604
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: put a pin in that. Nipples will figure in quite

605
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: a bit. But but the point where she wasn't like

606
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: this is the part I was born to play. I

607
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: can't wait to get more eco conscious. She was just

608
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: like Nipple, Cocay. It was a gorilla, everybody. You gotta

609
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: remember that. So if you look at that train in

610
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: scripts from the A O L chat, that means it's

611
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: still you're not digging up transcripts from A L chat

612
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: rooms anymore unless you're in trouble with the law. And

613
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: if you look at what's going on in this chat

614
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: and the answers at Coco's giving and then the responses

615
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: that Penny Patterson is giving, you start to see a

616
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: little bit of a trend where I guess the nicest

617
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: way to say it is that Dr Patterson was being

618
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: a little liberal with some of these translations on what

619
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: she thought Coco might be saying. Right, Um, there's this

620
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: really good example. One was a O L user Mini

621
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: Kitty asked Coco, are you gonna have a baby in

622
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: the Mini Kitty here? By the way, anyone that would

623
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: be astounding? Oh god, I got a bunch of mini kids. Um,

624
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: so many. Kitty asked Cocoa, you're gonna have a baby

625
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: in the future, and Coco went, and it doesn't make

626
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: any sense when you're reading the transcript. Coco covered her

627
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: eyes and, uh, you when Dr Patterson kind of translates it,

628
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: then it makes sense. She said, Well, I think what

629
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: she's doing is signing unattention that she doesn't see it.

630
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: That's not gonna happen. And you can't help but think

631
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: that feels like a bit of a stretch. And when

632
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: you read this transcript you start to get a kind

633
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: of clear idea why there are some people out there

634
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: in the world who think that Project Coco was almost

635
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: entirely bs. It was almost entirely made up and not

636
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: true at all. That's right. So that first part of

637
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: the show was a lot of fun. I think we

638
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: can all agree super cute. Uh, we don't like to

639
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: burst bubbles, but we do what we do, and we

640
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: have to show the other side of the argument because uh,

641
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: we get into a section now called the Ape language Wars,

642
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: which was a real thing. Um for some people. They

643
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: believe that Coco was super smart and communicating and making

644
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: sentences and using sign language and understood what was happening,

645
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: But there's a whole other group of scientists who basically

646
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: ended up thinking that these experiments are bs and that

647
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: Coco is basically like a bear you train to ride

648
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: a unicycle in a circus. Sure that is doing this

649
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: retreats yes, the rewards or something like that, or falling

650
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: that that that she was trained to use these signs

651
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: in the same way you could train a dog to

652
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: slow dance with you or something the kind of thing.

653
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: It's it's very, very impressive, but it doesn't require or

654
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: display human level intellect. And we should say, like, none

655
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: of this has proven and there's a huge division in

656
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: the field of science over whether the ape language researchers

657
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: are right or the skeptics are right. And it's actually

658
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,439
Speaker 1: pretty fascinating, but you have to kind of step back

659
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: and look at it in this larger context because it

660
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: wasn't just Project Coco that this gets leveled against it.

661
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: Project Coco was part of a whole other field, um

662
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: called the ape language experiments that really started way back

663
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 1: in the twentieth century. Yeah, so it was a pretty

664
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: hot thing for a while. Um. There were a bunch

665
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: of experiments going on where they would take chimps, mostly chimps.

666
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: I think Coca was one of the few apes or

667
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: a few guerrillas, so that she was the first. Yeah,

668
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: the first one for sure. And they would take chimps,

669
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: and they would raise them as children by themselves or

670
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: with siblings, or dressed them up in little cute overalls

671
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: and things and try and make them like little humans

672
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: a little later hosing, maybe they were is a good

673
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: look a chimp in later hosing? Oh yeah, of course

674
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: there was one one of the first ones in the nineties.

675
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: It was a psychologist couple. Uh. And as you'll see,

676
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: most of these are couples that lead these experiments, which

677
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: is why I still feel so bad for Ron Cone

678
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: because he was like, well, Penny that, like everyone else

679
00:42:54,239 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 1: literally is married except us. So Keith and Cathy Hayes

680
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: they trained a chimp named Vicky in the nineteen forties

681
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: not to sign words to speak for human language words.

682
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: Vicky could say Mama, Papa, up, and cup and uh.

683
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: We figured they really dropped the ball on that fifth

684
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: word because pup is just staring them in the face.

685
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: She had all the tools there, but they stopped at four.

686
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: But here's the thing is that Vicky's experiment, even though

687
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: she learned to speak for human words, was considered a failure. Failure.

688
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: They taught a chimp to speak, and it was considered

689
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: a failure because everybody's like just for words, And the

690
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: point was was that no, we should be able to

691
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: teach them language. Like the theory was that if humans

692
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: were the only ones who could use language, maybe it

693
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: was a cultural thing. So if we start raising chimps

694
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: as humans, they'll pick up language, and you'll have a

695
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: language using chimp. Vicky proved and some of the other

696
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,479
Speaker 1: ones proved that it's just not gonna happen. And later

697
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: on we figured out that the physiology of the other primates, um,

698
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: it just doesn't allow for speech. So some people were like, well,

699
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: that's it, case closed. It's only humans who can use language.

700
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: H G. Noam Chomsky. Very famously, the famous linguists came

701
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: out and said, I I hypothesized that humans have what's

702
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: called the language acquisition device, like a little seed program

703
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: in our brain that allows us to start learning language,

704
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: and that only humans have that. It's a hypothesis that

705
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: hasn't been proven still, but he really kind of set

706
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: the tone for the skeptics who say it's just humans

707
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: who can use language. But then some people said, you

708
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: know what, Chomsky, he's pretty interesting fellow. But I don't

709
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: really I'm not swayed by this. I think that just

710
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: because an ape can't talk doesn't mean they can't use language.

711
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: And somebody, I think Alan and Beatrix Gardner came upon

712
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: this really novel idea, if you can't teach an eat

713
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: an ape to speak, you could teach an ape sign language.

714
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: And they were definitely onto something because it panned out

715
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: pretty well. Yeah, this is a nineteen sixty seven and

716
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: they had a was it a chimp? Yeah? You think

717
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: it was a chimp named was Show And I think

718
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: Washo was from Washington, if I'm not mistaken, I think

719
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: I think she ended up in Washing ended up in Washington,

720
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: and uh, things went pretty well for a little while,

721
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: but uh, it yielded a lot of findings when they

722
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: found out that Lulie was a young male, that Washow

723
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: wasn't the real mama, but Washo just sort of adopted

724
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: this young chimp as her own. And they found out

725
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: that Washo was teaching Lulie sign language and they were

726
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: signing to each other. They were signing to other animals.

727
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: They would walk up and sign to dogs and stuff

728
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: like that. I guess like, are you with us? It's

729
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: gonna go down and we need to know if you're

730
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: with us, there, with us against us? No middle ground.

731
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm look in my butt hole, man, I don't know.

732
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: It is funny if you watch footage from some of

733
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: these experiments, there is often a dog just kind of

734
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: hanging out, like what the hell are you guys doing,

735
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: which is why we love dogs so much. They don't care.

736
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: They just want scritches and hugs. They do um. So

737
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: Project Washed like just changed everything because now all of

738
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: a sudden you had a chimp that was using sign

739
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: language like so yes like Noam Chomsky seemed like he

740
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: was going to be wrong, and that kicked off this

741
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: whole ape language experimentation. It became kind of like the

742
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: hot research topic in developmental psychology was just so hot.

743
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: Well you can see why. You know, it's it's cool,

744
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: it's headline grabbing. You get to work with these apes,

745
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: that's super cute. It was at a time when Threes

746
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: Company was the number one show in America. It just

747
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: made sense in a very very seventies kind of way. Yeah,

748
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: I guess I thought. So there was one, and it

749
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: wasn't just gorillas and chimps. It was in rain tang

750
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: name Chantek, who excelled at signing and would give directions

751
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: whenever Chantic was in a car to the local dairy queen.

752
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: It's so great, not bad. There's a very famous project nim.

753
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: Um do not watch that documentary. Josh tried to get

754
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: me too, but he said it's a real bummer man.

755
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: Bummer is a very good word to describe it. So

756
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: I did not see it. I refused. It's a little sad,

757
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: but I think this was at Columbia University in the

758
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: mid seventies and they threw a little shade at Niam Chomsky.

759
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: The leader of this project named herb Terrorists by naming

760
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: his chimp Nim Chimpsky, which is pre Simpson's. It's so Simpsons,

761
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: really so Herb Terrorist figures in pretty big in this

762
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: in this whole thing, he really does and like just

763
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 1: like Wash Show and Loulie and all of the other ones.

764
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: Um Nim started to acquire sign language like pretty quickly

765
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: and was using a lot of signs, and things were

766
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: going along as expected, but Herb terrorists. The head of

767
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: this project, Project Nim. He wasn't he wasn't convinced. He

768
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: didn't believe that Nim was actually using language. He thought

769
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: that he just knew some signs. And like, at the

770
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: heart of this is this discussion of like what constitutes language. Um,

771
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: Like if you have a pie, you can point to

772
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: a pie and say pie, and everyone don't think, can

773
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: I have some pie? But all you're doing is pointing

774
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 1: to an object and saying a word. That's just using

775
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: a word. Language is like where you take other words

776
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: and put them together and describe to people how to

777
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: make a delicious pie, so you can make something that

778
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: literally doesn't exist yet out of other things. That's the

779
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: difference between language and words. And what Herb terrorists thought

780
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: was that Nim was just using words. So he um

781
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: did the normal thing that you would do and sent

782
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: him back to his place of birth, very grim ape

783
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: research farm in Oklahoma, which is a deeply not okay

784
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: thing to do. Now there should not be ape farms

785
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. Yeah, I hate to break that to you.

786
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: Uh So we got to say that Herb terrorists, he

787
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: didn't go into this whole thing. Two as a skeptic

788
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: to prove everyone wrong. Though he was a star of

789
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: the field. Yeah, he was a star of the field.

790
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: He was way into it, and he looked at the

791
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: science and he was like, man, you know it. The

792
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: more I look at this, not only do I think

793
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: that they're not truly communicating and understanding what they're saying,

794
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: He's like, I think these researchers are tipping them off inadvertently.

795
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's trying to cheat it, but inadvertently

796
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: they're tipping their hand right before they would teach a

797
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: sign or ask them to say a sign, inadvertently, And

798
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: I don't even think they know. Not only do I

799
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: think they're not talking, I don't even think that they

800
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,919
Speaker 1: know what food means when they sign food that they're

801
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: they're just that basic that they're really just mimicking. Yep,

802
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: they're just imitating people to get that food. So so

803
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: herb terrorists. Again, he's one of the stars of the

804
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: ape language research field. Says that he changed his mind

805
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: about his data, He publishes a big influential article in

806
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: n becomes the most vocal critic of his former field,

807
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: and normally when a scientist changes his mind about his

808
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: data doesn't really amount to much, but this drew a

809
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: really deep clear line in the sand. What had once

810
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: been like the hot research topic in developmental psychology was

811
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: now considered possibly fraudulent, um anti science, or at the

812
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: very least unscientific. And you had to choose one side

813
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: or the other. Like the dogs and the chimps right

814
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: versus humans, you had to choose where did you believe

815
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: that that ape language research was actually just fraudulent and

816
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: it was really the humans who were producing the study

817
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 1: data because they were seeing what they wanted to see

818
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: and believing what they wanted to believe, Or did you

819
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: believe that, no, they're actually onto something and science um

820
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: still has plenty left to learn from studying apes. And

821
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: you had to choose one side or the other, and

822
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of petty camps broke out along

823
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: that dividing line. Yeah, and at the center of all

824
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: this is a word that I have always had a

825
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: very hard time saying. This is going to be beautiful.

826
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: So I have broken it down into five parts. And thropomorphism. Oh,

827
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: you nailed it, You nailed it. Shut Thank you everyone.

828
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: It says here and dash throw dash po dash more.

829
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: That's so easy, and I just left phism all by itself.

830
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: You don't, I didn't break that down into two parts.

831
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: You don't see phism spelled out very often. Yeah, and

832
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: for your throw you added the W like throw, yeah,

833
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: not just th h r O or th h r

834
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: o e throw. Pism looks too close to Fish the band.

835
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: It does, so that's probably why why I'm like naturally

836
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 1: against it. I'm sorry, Fish fans. I don't think San

837
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: Franciscan's like music like Fish or anything music. There's no

838
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: great music traditions here, are there, Journey hue Lewis. That's

839
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: basically that's what I understand. I don't think anything in

840
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: the six guys should be very proud of yourselves just

841
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: for having Huey Lewis and Journey. Forget the news jes

842
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 1: Huey Lewis alone. I thought that was imply And his wiener.

843
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: You know, he showed his wiener in the movie Ones.

844
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: It's true, Robert Altman shortcuts Huey Lewis shows his wiener.

845
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: Am I having a nightmare right now, Josh, wake up?

846
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: But you're in the castro. It's all good, Okay, We're

847
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: talking about Cocoa. The gorilla so of course anthropomorphism. Geez,

848
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: that was a weird sidetrack. Uh, we're all guilty of it.

849
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: You know what that is, that's putting human characteristics on animals.

850
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: That's when you go home and um, you see your

851
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: dog or your cat, and you think you know what

852
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: they're feeling, and you think they have these inner lives

853
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: and these emotions. I believe that they do. Maybe I'm wrong.

854
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I don't care. That's what I believe.

855
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: That's it's okay. So so yes, that's it uses common

856
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: sense and intuition and you use your own eyes and

857
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: your own empathy to see like, yes, my dog is

858
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: sad right now, or no, my dog's very happy right now.

859
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: You can see. It's just common sense. But if you're

860
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: a skeptic, if you're a scientist, a rationalist, I'm not,

861
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: you impound your fists and say no, science has never

862
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: shown that animals have any kind of inner subjective life

863
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 1: like humans too. You are just projecting that onto your stupid,

864
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: stupid faced talk. That's right, because because anybody who thinks

865
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: like that hates dogs. On the other side, there are

866
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: people like me and scientists believe like like honestly, like

867
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,720
Speaker 1: we kind of believe that they do have these inner lives,

868
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: and we will look at them and say, you're all

869
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: blinded by the science, like Thomas Dolby, So what good

870
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: are you? I'm on this side of the line in

871
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 1: the sand a right. So anthropomorphism is where like belief

872
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: and rationalism like clink teeth. Yeah, yes, it's pretty pretty

873
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: good description if you ask me. And I think that's

874
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: another good time for a break. Yeah, you guys think

875
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: so too. Is it going well enough to release your thing? Okay,

876
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: well then we have to add a second ad break

877
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: just in case. So if you'll bear with us, we'll

878
00:54:39,280 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: be right back. We're back everyone. So before we took

879
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: our break, there are a bunch of mean science people

880
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: saying your dogs and your gorillas are just dumb animals.

881
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: And then there are people that have human hearts beating

882
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: inside their body that say, no, you're blinded by science,

883
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: like Thomas Tolby. That was a good recap, thank you.

884
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: So for some people Penny Patterson included in other ape

885
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: language researchers, they were like, you know, I don't think

886
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: herb terrorists changing his mind about his data actually amounts

887
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 1: to proof that that apes can't use language. I think

888
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: we just haven't figured out how to demonstrate it sufficiently.

889
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: So some people stayed in this field of research and

890
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: risk being labeled cooks or rods or hucksters or deluded

891
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 1: morons or what have you. Um, and they stayed in.

892
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: But they were scientists still, and they wanted to stay scientific,

893
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: so they had to jump through increasingly narrower hoops to

894
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 1: prove that what they were doing was not actually them

895
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: corrupting the study data. Basically, yeah, they couldn't just sit

896
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: face to face and even risk their facial expressions giving

897
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: something away. So there was a researcher named Sue Savage

898
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: Rumball at the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta, and she

899
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: would do her experiments wearing a welding mask. Uh. Good

900
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: way to behinde your face. I guess she couldn't explain

901
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: why her monkey kept signing flash dance over and over.

902
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: She would wear a welling mask and then off the

903
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: off the shoulder sweatshirt. Oh man, I just saw that

904
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: last year for the first time. I've never seen it.

905
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. Hold up, what a feeling. It's amazing. That'll

906
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: make sense to me. That so um, there was another

907
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: thing that um that that that people were prompted of

908
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: or accused of, which was prompting right like what Chuck

909
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: was saying. Herb terrorists concluded that the researchers or the

910
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: caregivers were kind of showing the sign right before the

911
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: chimp used the sign prompting. And so to get around

912
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: accusations of prompting your subjects uh, Sue Savage Rumba and

913
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: her husband Dwayne realized that the oh yeah, another couple,

914
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: this thing is allowsy with couple or run. So so

915
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: the Rumbas they said, well, let's just not teach them

916
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: sign language. Then then you can't possibly prompt them. And

917
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 1: they developed something called a lexicon board, which is like

918
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: a trifule board of a couple of hundred little boxes

919
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: and each one has a symbol in it, and the

920
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: symbol represents a word. And what they did was they

921
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: taught their bonna bows how to use this to speak.

922
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: So you press the word in the computer on the

923
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: little litttle box says the word for you, and so

924
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: they would kind of punch out word combinations, and you

925
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: can't prompt a bonabo to do that. Um. And astoundingly

926
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: they tried to teach one of their first subjects, Matada this,

927
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: which I think means worries. I don't know, wouldn't it

928
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: looked it up yet, but I think it would Anyway.

929
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: Matada was pretty interesting because they tried to teach her

930
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: this and she was like, mmmmmm, I am not picking

931
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: this up. That's right. But it got really interesting because

932
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: Matada had a son named Kanzi, and Kanzi could pick

933
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: it up and he actually taught mom how to use this.

934
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: So Bonabo's were exactly like human beings, children teaching their

935
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: parents to technology. And this was after Matada got a

936
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: CD rom at Staples called how to use a Lexicon board.

937
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: She ordered it online. Actually right, and that I with

938
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: the bald head but the ponytail. Don't forget the pony Oh.

939
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: But but the thing is about Conzi. They never taught Conzi.

940
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: He just happened to be present while they were trying

941
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: to teach Matata and one day he just started using

942
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: the alex com board and they just lost there. They

943
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: were so excited he knew how to use a lexicon

944
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: board to say come on mom. So Conzi is actually

945
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: widely regarded as one of the most intelligent apes in

946
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: any of the ape language experiments, um, which he demonstrated

947
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: when he wrote the movie Pay It Forward. I'm not

948
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: sure I get that one so bad it was written

949
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: by an ape. You don't read it, just enjoy it

950
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: on its face. It's a lot of good movie refs

951
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: in this one. So uh, pay It Forward? That was

952
00:59:54,840 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 1: the bad man right that say? Yeah, everyone, do you

953
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:08,439
Speaker 1: way to bring my joke down? Shut? Sorry the spaceman so,

954
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: uh here where are we? I'm so lost? Now? Sorry? Um,

955
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: they were, Uh, I'm genuinely lost. Do you want me

956
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 1: to swoop carry? Cut all that out? Huh? Do you

957
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: want me to swoop in? Well, since you put it

958
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: that way, now, there was some other controversy in that,

959
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: um they had, and not just Penny Patterson, but other

960
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: people in this field had been accused of manipulating the

961
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: public over the years and uh sort of doing things,

962
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to video, of kind of cooking

963
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: the books a little bit. It's very easy with video. Obviously.

964
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 1: There was one sort of famous one with Kanzi, the

965
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: aforementioned Bonabo. There's a video of Kanzi putting together some

966
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: sticks to light a fire and getting out a lighter

967
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: cut two perfect drawing fire that kind of thing, or

968
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: you don't know what happened in between those moments. No,

969
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: but like you don't even notice it unless you're suspicious

970
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: of ape language research already, because we're also trained to

971
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: just overlook cuts and edits from all the movies and

972
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 1: TV shows that we've seen, and that that actually isn't harmful.

973
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't doesn't really do anything wrong, but it opens up,

974
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: like legitimate researchers like the Rum Boss to accusations of

975
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 1: illegitimacy even though they're doing legitimate science. The fact that

976
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: they're kind of um exaggerating potentially what their subjects are

977
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: capable of in the mind of the public opens them

978
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: up to accusations like that. Well, and even Dr Patterson

979
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: would use words like, uh, Coco has mastered sign language

980
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and we love Cocoa and Coco

981
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: learned a lot, but Cocoa never mastered sign language. And

982
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: when you use words like that, um, these sort of

983
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: unscientific descriptions of what's really going on, it doesn't do

984
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: anyone in the field any favors. It doesn't and it

985
01:01:53,720 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: makes linguists go like, yeah, you have some crazy so uh.

986
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: Today the scientific community. Um. Basically, this is kind of

987
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 1: where we are now. Since the eighties, a lot of

988
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: this research has dried up. UH. They don't really work

989
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 1: with apes and gorillas to teach them sign language much anymore,

990
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: partially because of this, partially because of the ethics of

991
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: of taking apes and guerrillas and and putting them uh

992
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: in human houses and making homes and things like that,

993
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: making them dependent on humans, taking away from their family.

994
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: We're in a different place now in the world where

995
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: we don't do stuff like that as much, for sure, thankfully.

996
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 1: But the scientific community does rightfully acknowledge that that ape

997
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 1: language research has shown apes are capable of using sign language,

998
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: of communicating on a human level with humans, which is

999
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: just astounding. And we're still learning more and more, and

1000
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that a little bit more. UM. Like

1001
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: it's produced some insights into the minds of apes that

1002
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: we did not have before. One of the things that

1003
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: was pointed to as why apes couldn't communicate couldn't actually

1004
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: use languages because they lacked a theory of mind. And

1005
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: theory of mind is like, I know, Chuck has different beliefs,

1006
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: um different views of the world, Like we're two different people.

1007
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: And they long thought that apes didn't have that. Well,

1008
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: in two thousand seventeen, somebody thought to give apes uh

1009
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: theory of mind tests that was developed for human infants,

1010
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, these tests started showing that no,

1011
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 1: actually they do have a theory of mind. And this

1012
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: was just a couple of years ago. So, um, the

1013
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: field is still kind of going and developing, and it's

1014
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: pretty exciting that people are still researching this kind of stuff. Yeah.

1015
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean, what they've kind of moved more into now,

1016
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: which makes sense to me, is maybe we shouldn't try

1017
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,919
Speaker 1: and teach uh guerrillas English, even in Sang language. Maybe

1018
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: we should just see how they communicate with each other,

1019
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 1: and maybe we can learn from that and see what

1020
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: guerilla languages all like teach ourselves their language, and that

1021
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: would give us kind of an insight into their worldview. Uh.

1022
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: There was also Yeah, there's also some uh we we

1023
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: can sidesteps some other controversies. The Gorilla Foundation was sued

1024
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: at one point not too long ago by a couple

1025
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: of uh former female scientists that worked for them, because

1026
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: remember the nipple thing. Uh, Coco had a nipple fetish.

1027
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: There's really no other way to say it than that

1028
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: someone just wooed that. Uh. If you look at the

1029
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: Robin Williams video, Coco is trying to get in that

1030
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: shirt and see his nipples. And uh. Dr Patterson would

1031
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: show Coco her nipples over the years, and then she

1032
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: would request other employees do the same, both male and female.

1033
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: And eventually some of those employees got uncomfortable with that. Uh,

1034
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: they took her to court and it was settled out

1035
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: of court. So we really don't know, you know, when

1036
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: things are settled out of court what the final result is.

1037
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: But um, that was one of the sort of controversies

1038
01:04:53,800 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: that they had encountered, the big nipple incident. Yes, we're serious.

1039
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:03,800
Speaker 1: Have you listened to stuff you should before? Of course?

1040
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: For serious? Are they making all this out? Are they

1041
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,439
Speaker 1: just riffing? This is amazing? Who are these guys? They're

1042
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: not funny to be comedians, but I don't think they're

1043
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: being truthful about their science. It was a really good

1044
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: impression of that person. Why am I here? Who are

1045
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: these people? So? Dr Patterson? Was that Jerry Seinfeld? Okay?

1046
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: Dr Patterson? Basically when that line was drawn in the

1047
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: sand on one side or the other, she said, you

1048
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: know what. Uh, this is my my guerrilla daughter and

1049
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave her. Uh. She kind of

1050
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: shunned the scientific community in large part she didn't do

1051
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: as many published papers. Those kind of dried up. Um,

1052
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: the official research still goes on or still went on

1053
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: for a while, and but it just wasn't like presented

1054
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: as science so much as she's like, screw that, I'm

1055
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: just gonna do it on my own. Then yeah, she

1056
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: was like, I'm just gonna go directly to the public.

1057
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: The scientific community can rotten heell. Basically, so her outreach

1058
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: to the public and um, her kind of pushing Coco

1059
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: and just kind of sharing all things Coco that increased

1060
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,439
Speaker 1: while her kind of scientific commitment went down a little bit.

1061
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: But there's this documentary in two four I think you

1062
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 1: mentioned before. It is Coco with a gorilla who talks

1063
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: and there is a colon in there, and then there's

1064
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: another colon called The Sad Story of ron Con in

1065
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: parentheses beneath it. But in a um, Penny Patterson talks

1066
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: about regrets and she said that her biggest regret is

1067
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: that Coco never had a baby. Uh, and Coco apparently

1068
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: wanted a baby. She used to tell Penny a lot

1069
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: that she wanted a baby, and Penny really wanted a

1070
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 1: baby for Coco. Um, but it didn't happen. Remember, they

1071
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: brought in Michael, and Michael was going to be a

1072
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: mate for Coco eventually. But what they didn't realize is

1073
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: that an incest taboo exist among guerrillas and that they

1074
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: raised them together from too young an age. And when

1075
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 1: they finally got around to suggesting that they mate, both

1076
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 1: Coco and Michael signed you it was not happening. It's

1077
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: not Uh. They brought in another gorilla name in Duma,

1078
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: to mate. Uh. They never produced a child either, so uh,

1079
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: I think in Duma went back to the Cincinnati Zoo

1080
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: and then, very sadly, and you probably all remember this,

1081
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: uh not too long ago. June nineteenth, two th eighteen,

1082
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: Coco passed away in her sleep at the age of

1083
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:40,439
Speaker 1: forty six years old, and the world, or at least

1084
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: America for sure, mourned Cocoa's death in a big way.

1085
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Um, and she touched the lives of

1086
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: people like that's just whether she knew the language or not.

1087
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: And we're pretty sure she was a very smart gorilla

1088
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: who did no sign language. But whether she did or not,

1089
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: that ambassadorship for Earth like really did have an effect,

1090
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 1: and not just for like everyday people who actually did

1091
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 1: care about the Earth more because they knew about cocoa

1092
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: and she kind of transformed their view of things, but

1093
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: also like scientists too. Um. There was a two thousand

1094
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 1: fourteen symposium of guerilla experts, like people who are experts

1095
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 1: in the grilla field, and they were asked at the symposium,

1096
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: you know who is here because they were inspired by Coco,

1097
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: Like who got into this because of Coco? And like

1098
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: half of the people in attendance raised their hand. So

1099
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: she really did have this major impact on the world. Yeah,

1100
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: for sure, there is great, great value in that, to

1101
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,799
Speaker 1: be sure. So there was a man named Charles Wesley Hume,

1102
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,759
Speaker 1: British Man who founded the University's Federation for Animal Welfare,

1103
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: and he kind of laid the stakes on this kind

1104
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,600
Speaker 1: of science out there pretty plainly, and he said this,

1105
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: if I assume the animals have subjective feelings of pain, fear, hunger,

1106
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: and the like, and if I'm mistaken in doing so,

1107
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 1: no harm will have been done. But if I assume

1108
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,719
Speaker 1: the contrary, would in fact animals do have such feelings,

1109
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: then I opened the way to unlimited cruelties. Animals must

1110
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: have the benefit of the doubt, if indeed there be

1111
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:13,799
Speaker 1: any doubt, right agreed, And so like what Coco lives

1112
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 1: on as is this kind of litmus test. Because until

1113
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: we can prove or disprove that that apes or any

1114
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: animal does or doesn't have a subjective inner experience, um experience,

1115
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: Did I get that? Then it's a matter of belief,

1116
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 1: like you can believe whichever way you want. And and

1117
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: Coco kind of pushes people to one side or the other.

1118
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: And when she died, um journalists around the world wrote

1119
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:45,680
Speaker 1: headlines that use words like Coco the master of sign language, um,

1120
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: Coco the talking guerrilla, And a lot of skeptics came

1121
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 1: out and tried to correct things with their own articles,

1122
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: but they were like a drop in the ocean compared

1123
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 1: to all the other articles. And it seems like the

1124
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 1: world does want to believe that there is something more

1125
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: to animals than we, you know, can prove, and perhaps

1126
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 1: that ultimately is best. Let's Cocoa, Everybody Good? Double Stuff

1127
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: You Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio.

1128
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:22,719
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the I heart radio, app,

1129
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,839
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1130
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:28,720
Speaker 1: H