WEBVTT - Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: Judd Apatow 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.080 The moment you realized you were mistaking your kids for 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:13.280 co workers. Okay, team, I'm what was the moment you 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.279 knew it was time to get back to work. Let's 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.400 job it up at career Builder are simple, customizable search 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.240 tool let you search for part time, full time, and 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.439 even work from home jobs so you can find a 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.000 job that fits your lifestyle. Get started now at career 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:35.239 builder dot com. That time you got home from a 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.519 week of double shifts and your dog didn't recognize you? 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.280 Hate me? Hate me? Do you want to treat? You 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.400 want to treat? You knew it was time for something new. 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.520 Let's job it up. At career builder. You can find 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.400 jobs with the work life balance and salary you want, 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.640 Plus build a resume and apply to multiple jobs in 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:01.400 just one click. Start your search at career builder com. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.720 Still living in manually taking notes, there is a better 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:06.800 way to start the new year with auto dot ai 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.280 automatically get meeting notes. Auto dot ai works for virtual 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.959 meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Google Meet. Sign up 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:14.560 on the web for free or download in the app 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.240 stores auto dot ai. That's O T T E R 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:22.280 dot Ai. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curict and I'm Bomas 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.360 st John and this is Back to Biz with Katie 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:30.319 and Bose Bose. This week, we have a bit of 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.800 a departure. You know. When you and I decided we 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.120 wanted to do this podcast together, we were really talking 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:40.839 about getting back to biz or how businesses would change 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:45.399 in light of the pandemic. But of course everything has 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:49.760 changed because of this huge cultural moment we're witnessing with 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.280 Black Lives Matter. Yes, that's right, Katie. I mean, right now, 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.000 we're finding that there are so many narratives being told, 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.320 not just about the pandemic, but you're right about Black 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.560 Lives Matter, and about so many things that are concerning 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.680 us in our society, and so really interesting to talk 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.040 to someone who is at the center of creating narratives 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.600 and stories that we're all paying attention to. Absolutely, and 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:19.679 Judd Apatow is just that, a writer, producer, director. He's 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.400 got a new movie out called The King of Staten 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:28.720 Island starring Pete Davidson. It's really semi autobiographical because it's 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.760 about Pete's own challenges and journey of losing his father. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.480 His mom is played by Marissa Tomay, and his little 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.720 sister is actually played by Judd's daughter maud Right, except 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.400 even the little sisters leaving the nest. She set it 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.280 off to college, and she's leaving her twenties something year 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.960 old brother behind. You gonna be okay without me here? 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.919 You don't think I could five here without you? Okay, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.359 Just don't be a dick. Okay, it would be nice 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.640 to mom. Okay, don't give her a hard time. She 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.639 deserves a break. I always give her a break. When's 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.680 what am I gonna get my break? Like? What are 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:06.520 you talking about? All? Anyone ever does this worry about you? 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.399 I was ignored my entire childhood because of you. Yeah, 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.920 I forgot that my childhood was so dandy. Okay, you 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.280 don't get that crazy your whole life just because dad died. Okay, 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.160 at least you've got to know him. Well, you're lucky 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:17.960 you didn't get to know him, Okay, because that's why 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:19.959 you're almost normal. If you got to know me, would 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.320 have known that he was like the coolest guy ever, 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.400 and that wouldn't ruin the rest of your life. Okay, 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:27.239 But what are you gonna do? Or are you gonna 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.320 get a job, or are you going to leave the house? 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.240 I don't know I'm gonna open that tattoo restaurant. Well, 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.880 I don't know if that tattoo restaurant is the real winner. 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.560 We know about business and that's not it. I don't 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.840 think so either, right, But there really is so much 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.480 to unpack in this movie. I mean, it's also dealing 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.440 with trauma and mental health in a way that feels 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.000 really direct and refreshing. I was really impressed with this 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.560 movie Bows, But of course it was done a while ago, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.440 and we'll be talking to jud about the future not 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.160 only of movie making but movie going. But we want 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.760 to check in first with the present. How he's doing 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.320 months into this pandemic hold up at home, one man 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.000 among many women, his lovely wife Leslie Man, and his 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.480 nearly grown daughters Iris and Maud. That might have been 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.000 one of my favorite parts about the whole conversation, how 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:22.800 he got the takeover. So let's start there, old Gramont 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:27.080 and Iris. Now, Jud, there are twenty two and seventeen, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.640 and that's not the age where you want to hang 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.160 out with your parents a lot. You know, that's the 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.440 moment when you leave and you're so happy to get 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.320 away from your parents. So it's a very weird moment 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.719 for us all to be stuck together, because now we're 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:47.840 not like a family, We are like weird roommates. Because 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.240 when you spend this much time together and they're that old, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.200 I mean, Iris will be eighteen in October, you can't 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.720 really even give them advice or tell them what to do. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.960 You can't ground them because we're all grounded together. And 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.400 I think all people were five minutes from doing mushrooms 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.880 together at this point. Well, the family dynamics are very 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.719 interesting during these strange times. But we're all lucky and 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.960 we're all surviving. And uh, I keep thinking about how 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.600 fortunate I am because there's so many people who are 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.039 really really hurting, so jud we have so much ground 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.159 to cover. You've been so busy, and we're excited to 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.800 talk to you about your new movie. But first I 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.919 just want to go back in time quickly, because you 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.360 were a bit of a late bloomer. You didn't direct 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.240 your first movie until you were thirty five years old, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.360 because you had a hard time convincing studio executives that 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.839 your ideas had potential. What was it about your form 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.720 of comedy or your brand of comedy, Judd that studio 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.920 had Studio exact same thanks, but no thanks. It's hard 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.520 to know. I think that you know, for like Freaks 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.360 and Geek, which was about high school kids, but it 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.359 was you know, it was the weirdos. It was the 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.880 potheads and the geeks, and there wasn't a lot of 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.560 those on television, especially in the lead roles. Back then, 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.400 it used to be that everyone was gorgeous and it 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.520 was like a soap opera and it was very you know, 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.480 Dawson's Creek style. And someone that wrote an article and 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.520 they said, well, this is like independent film on television. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.880 And at that time, you know, before streaming, before cable, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.560 when in that direction we just seemed weird. I mean, 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.479 freaksing Geeks right now would totally fit in on television. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.240 It might even be corny compared to what everyone is 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.920 watching at this point. But back then it just seemed 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:47.080 very odd to show the problems of teenagers where it 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.360 didn't get solved, where it was just painful, and then 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.280 sometimes things would go terribly wrong and then the episode 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.240 would end and you realize, oh, this is about that. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.480 Sometimes it's just hard, and sometimes you lean on your 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.279 friends and it doesn't work out and you don't get 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.920 the girl and you don't get the good position in 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.640 in sports, and you're kind of humiliated by everyone, and 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.200 you're just trying to hold it together to survive high school. 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:11.960 And so I think some of the ideas I like 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:16.280 that maybe they were they were so truthful that the 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.440 culture wasn't doing a lot of that at the time. 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.200 But then suddenly with everything that HBO was doing and 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.680 uh whatever, all the all the shows, what what the 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.000 Sopranos did and Leana done him? Did it? The culture changed. 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.480 You have a new movie, The King of Staten Island, 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.200 and it had to be released on demand instead of 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.880 in theaters for obvious reasons, as we've been discussing, but 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.520 you also said that you feel this movie somehow was 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.720 destined to be seen right now. Why why is that? 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.400 Why does it need to be seen right now? I 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.240 think the movie is about, uh, you know, a family 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:58.000 struggle to get over the death of the father who 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.000 was a firefighter and in real life, Pete Davidson's father 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.320 lost his life in nine eleven. In the movie, it's 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.560 you know, it's a fabricated situation, but it's about a 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.720 family who's frozen in their grief. They haven't really moved 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.920 forward the way they should, in a healthy way. And 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:19.000 only when Pete's character's mother starts dating another fireman played 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.800 by Bill Burr his mom's played by Maarissa Tomay, does 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.160 it force them to confront everything that has held them back, 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:31.880 all the trauma that's prevented them from moving forward. And 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.920 I felt like the movie is about sudden loss, it's 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:40.320 about grief, it's about the ways it can impede our lives, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.400 and it's also about firefighters and heroes and nurses and 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.920 first responders. So when I was asked, you know when 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.520 you put it out on video on demand now versus 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.720 releasing it in a year, I thought, well, this is 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.839 kind of the subject that we're all dealing with. How 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:03.080 do we deal with change and loss and grief and 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.840 how do people come together and help each other and heal? 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.360 So maybe it's supposed to come out right now. It 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.000 felt weird to hold onto it to say that's his 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.200 way to year so it can be in theaters, Like, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.719 why do I need it in theaters? Is that an 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.439 ego trip for me? Is because I need the experience 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.880 of the of the audience, or did I make the 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.840 movie to make people happy to help them go through 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.839 something emotionally that I think might be helpful. And then 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.079 I thought, maybe it's supposed to come out now, maybe 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.400 that's what it was destined to do. Yeah, but you're right. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.760 I feel like movies content in general is sort of 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.559 a therapy, right. This probably brought up a lot of difficult, 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.720 unresolved issues for Pete. Did you find that did Did 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.679 it bring up anything even for yourself? It definitely did 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.920 for for all of us. In terms of Pete, we 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:02.160 sat around for years talking NonStop about how it felt to, 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.440 you know, to lose a parent, and to lose a 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.680 parent at seven when you don't even really understand what's 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.720 going on. And then there's this added dimension, which is 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.439 your father dies in nine eleven, and the entire world 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.040 is talking about nine eleven for the rest of your life. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.400 It doesn't really go away. And so I would what 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.680 I would say to Pete is, you know, my mother 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.680 died of cancer in two thousand and eight, and it 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.440 was very traumatic, and how it happened was very traumatic, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.240 but no one talks about it. So I can go 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.600 years and no one will mention my mother other than 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.200 my sister, and and so in some ways it gives 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.920 me some separation. It allows me to heal, It allows 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.960 me to develop, you know, this life after losing her. 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.680 For him, people talk to him about it every day 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.240 of his life, multiple times a day, and it's connected 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.800 to their grief and their loss, and so in a way, 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:59.600 he's he's in a groundhog Day loop about it, and 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.400 he has his own private grief. He just misses his dad. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.440 I mean, at the core of it, he just misses 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.559 his dad. He and he missed out on a relationship 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:12.920 that he really grieves for. How we don't really talk 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:28.160 about it much fun Yeah I missed it. Oh yeah, 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:38.680 let me too. And uh, I'm sorry that I been 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:46.240 so difficult to deal with. I'll try and get it together. 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:54.480 I'm just sorry, I think it. I mean, I talked 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.199 a lot with Pete about how when he was a 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.760 kid he was having a lot of mental health struggles 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.200 and he used to listen to kids and Kid Cutty 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.040 had all this amazing music about his anxiety and depression. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.679 And Pete said, that really got me through it. And 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.360 in the last few years, a lot of what we've 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.960 been working on is content about mental health. And Pete 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.680 wanted to make a movie that was about his story, 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.440 so that if you were home depressed or suicidal or 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.040 had anxiety, you might watch this movie and relate to 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:27.319 Pete and and see some hope in how he got better. Well, 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.800 I think it's just so remarkable that, um, we can 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.200 use art in this way to find healing, you know, 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.920 for a number of different things that happen in our lives. 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.240 But I also think it's remarkable that you're able to 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.520 sort of nurture that kind of storytelling, you know, and 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.960 with talent that sometimes maybe would get lost otherwise. Um, 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.160 and we know that you certainly mentored a lot of 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.760 young talent and provided vehicles for people like Amy Schumer 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.600 and Kristin Wigg and Seth Rogan. What is it that 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.600 you see in town like that you know in their 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.800 in their own storytelling, or how to nurture that type 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:12.400 of vulnerability? I mean, I think that clearly through Gary Shandon, 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.200 who I worked with the Larry Sander Show, I learned 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:18.880 a lot about mining your life for your art. And 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.360 I think as a fan of music, I always was 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.480 drawn to people who would tell stories that were clearly 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:26.840 from their lives. It could be James Taylor, could be 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.679 the Beatles, you love those songs that you knew were real. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.160 I think as a kid that was very important to me. 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:37.280 And then I think Richard Tryer in a way taught me, oh, 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.720 you would just work it out on stage like he 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.280 just told He told the stories of his life. Here's 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.120 the things I've done, here's the thing things I've done 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.600 which are terrible, Here's the mistakes I've made, Here's what 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:52.640 I've learned. And there were a lot of artists like that, Nirvana, 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:54.920 just just all these people where you thought, oh, they're 0:13:54.960 --> 0:14:00.000 not kidding, They're really showing you the raw, real stuff. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.760 And I learned with Gary that you could take your 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.160 life as the raw materials for storytelling, and they blur 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.600 the line. Some of it's totally made up, some of 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.040 it is actually very close to the truth. And a 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.560 writer's room at a TV show, everyone tells their stories. 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.600 And then that led to me writing Knocked Up and 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:25.880 Fortyal Virgin and um Photo Virgin with Steve and this 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.200 is forty. And then I started trying to mind my stuff, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.520 which is always a combination of made up and and 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.520 true things that you're thinking about. And then when I 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.360 met Pete, I mean, that was as close to the 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.760 bone as you can get. But he was as brave 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.960 as anyone I've ever met in terms of I'm willing 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.360 to go all the way, Jedd, There's no aspect of 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.200 this that I'm going to hold back. Most people hold 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.040 back something like no, I can't go that far, that's 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.920 too darker, that that will make me look weird. And 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.440 Pete's like, let's just show all of them when we 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.120 come back. 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What was the moment you knew it was 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.040 time to get back to work. Let's drop it up 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.280 at career Builder are simple, customizable search tool lets you 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.040 search for part time, full time, and even work from 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.399 home jobs so you can find a job that fits 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:17.600 your lifestyle. Get started now at career builder dot com. 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.159 You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.280 and we're talking with Judd Apatow, who as I'm sure 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.320 you're aware, a comedy powerhouse in Hollywood, but what about 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:31.240 the responsibility that comes with that power. Here we are 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.639 in a moment of national reckoning on race, so we 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.560 wanted to explore what leaders like Judd can do to 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.679 be the change that we want Hollywood to be. And 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.600 it's interesting because Judd has actually faced criticism about the 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.399 lack of diversity in his own work, So we started 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.120 there asking him where his head was at with all 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.280 of this and what he can do to better elevate 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.560 black stories. You know, Yeah, it's and it's an ever 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.440 evolving thing. You know, for me, princes with freaks and geeks. 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.280 When I went to high school, there was one black 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.080 person in thirteen years of high school on Long Island 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.440 where I grew up. So if I did a high 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:15.080 school show, and I said, well, let's make that you 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.320 can do that, and I think in this era you 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:21.120 would do that. But at the time, we just wrote 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.520 about what our high schools looked like and that was 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.840 not that uh, and maybe that was completely wrong at 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:33.000 the time, but you know, we came from places that 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.160 we're not diverse. Then when I worked with Lena Dunham 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.560 on Girls, at the time, there weren't shows with female 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.200 showrunners who were the lead and the producer and the director. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.679 And that became something that I think really was a 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.520 game changer for women running their shows. And it led 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.360 to shows like Fleabag and all these other programs where 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.040 women could create a show for themselves and start it 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.600 and direct it and produce it. And then some people 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.040 were like, well, that should be more diverse, and you're like, okay, 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.600 I I can see that that we need to keep 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.600 broadening it. We're all figuring out like, well, what is truthful? 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:10.840 How would you do it? And what I feel like 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.080 the solution to it is it's like what we did 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.200 with The Big Sick, which is I met fremail nine 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.159 Johnny and Emily Gordon, and they wanted to write this 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.560 story about how they met, and a lot of it 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:27.880 was about, you know, a family of people from Pakistan 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.800 and their experience in America and how their family worked. 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.480 And I'll tell you, no one wants it to make it. 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.159 You know, it doesn't matter how successful I've been, I 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.520 couldn't sell that script. Uh and Emily and Kamil had 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.640 an amazing story and they're brilliant, and Camail is an 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.679 incredible actor and he's on television. No One, So we 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:54.119 just developed it for years for free. No one paid them. 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.920 And then we got film Nation to give us five 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.240 million dollars to make the movie. Right, So we get 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.359 five million dollars to make the movie. Now, normally my 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.560 movies cost about thirty million dollars, So right there, you 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:10.240 can say there's almost a systemic racism in the budget, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.320 right because there's a belief that no one will want 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.959 to see a kid from Pakistan as the lead in 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.920 a comedy in America. So the movie gets made. Film 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:23.919 Nation stands behind us and gives it. They give us 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.520 the money. They're great, but none of the studios did 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.520 We show it at Sundance. It's a big hit. They 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.840 sell it for a lot of money to Amazon and 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.040 then lions Gate distributes it, and now you've got the 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.159 corporations behind it because we've proven it's good, and then 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.679 it makes a ton of money, right, it makes a 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.160 ton of money, and it basically becomes an example that 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.680 the racism which makes it hard to make this movie 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:55.120 is all bullshit. It's completely unfair and it's not even 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.680 accurate to what the audience wants. The audience wanted that movie. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:00.320 There's no reason why it should have been a five 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.359 million dollar movie. It's could have been a thirty million 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.480 dollar movie. And and that's how I've learned to deal 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.240 with this, which is, can I give opportunities to diverse 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.800 people to tell their stories and maybe I could use 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.840 my wisdom to help them, And you know, that seems 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:19.760 to be the best way forward. And the truth is, 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.880 and you you always sound lame saying it. I can't 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:24.720 tell you how many projects I've tried to make that 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.639 didn't work, where we couldn't get the script right. You know, 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:29.800 I did a pilot with Kevin Hart in two thousand 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:31.840 and two. I was like the first guy to go. 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:33.760 I think Kevin Hart's gonna be the biggest start in 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.359 the world. And it took a long time after that 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.800 for him to figure it out. But we were on 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.359 that on that train from day one, like he was 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.240 on undeclared he's in the four ye Old Virgin. But 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.680 I personally was never good enough to crack the script 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:52.200 to help Kevin make it. You know, he did that 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.080 in his own work that had nothing to do with me. 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.040 And so we try and sometimes we we just fail. Also, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:02.200 I think the brilliant thing, um that you just said 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.360 was about even the example of your high school, right, 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.639 and that if you were to write something about your 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.840 high school experience, you would write about this big class 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.720 with this one kid in it. And that is the 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.520 that is the middle of the issue, right. It's not 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:21.240 so much about having white people right black stories. It's 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:26.320 about having black people right black stories, diversifying the storytelling. 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.239 And so I think it's it's really quite important, and 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.919 there's a responsibility of those who have the door open 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.840 to find ways to extend it so that our storytelling 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:41.320 can become more diverse too, because I also think it's 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.080 about systemic racism, like why is Judd going to a 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.480 school or me for that matter, where there's like a 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.399 handful of black kids in the entire school. But I 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.160 think that's a reflection of you know, so many issues 0:22:55.320 --> 0:23:00.399 that created this de facto segregation that Judd and I 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.080 and Bose you to a certain extent too, even though 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.440 you're a little younger than we are, and well I'm 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.360 the old one of the group. We're all about ten 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.159 years apart um. But I think it's it's a reflection 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.280