1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 2: This series features conversations about pregnancy, complications and loss. Please 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: take care while listening. Dina and b spent years trying 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: to conceive. They had arduous retrievals, eggs that didn't fertilize, 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: embryos that didn't take. But now the two women had 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: made it to another transfer day, and this time was different. 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: It was special because they were doing reciprocal IVF for 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: the first time. The embryo that would be transferred into 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: Dina was made with bees egg. It was a chance 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: to create a profound connection for them both to their 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: future baby. 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 3: To be as genetically connected as we possibly could, for 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 3: Dina to carry my embryo, to put it, blun cook 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 3: my Bun. 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: Sitting in the exam room of a c in Manhattan, 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 2: they eagerly waited for their procedure to start, But now 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: their doctor was telling them that the clinic had made 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: a mistake. They don't remember the exact wording, but here's 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: the gist of it. 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: There's been a situation where the embryo you chose to 21 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 3: be defrusted was not and we defrusted a different embryo, 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 3: one that belonged to Dina, So they didn't defrost mine, 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 3: they defrusted Dina's. 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 4: Was this kind of the reason behind and the significance 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 4: behind why you wanted to carry each other's embryos? Was 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 4: that something that you had shared with your doctor? 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they knew. The nurses and the doctors all knew. 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: As Dina and b tried to process what was happening, 29 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: their doctor also looked rattled. 30 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 6: You could tell she felt awful. 31 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 5: Here's more fun could not stop apologizing. 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: At one point, she brought in the clinics embriologists to explain. Now, 33 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: the embryologist isn't someone that patients usually interact with, but 34 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: they do very important work in IVF. These are the 35 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: people that handle eggs, sperm, and embryos. 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 3: He wasn't admitting to it being his lab even though 37 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 3: it obviously was, and his oversight. 38 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 6: I mean, god knows what happened as to why. 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 5: We don't even know exactly what happened. 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So they left the room and I think we 41 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: both cried. 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 5: So it was a plan that we had set out 43 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 5: and talked a lot about in the process, for sure, 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 5: and thought it was would have been so cool and 45 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 5: unique and to not have that happen with devastating definitely 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 5: one hundred percent. 47 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: Dina and B were trying not to panic. 48 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 5: We were in disbelief, to be honest and shuck, So 49 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 5: what what happens now? 50 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 6: What are our options? 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: So we were absolutely crushed, Yeah, crushed. 52 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 2: And they were confronted with a painful choice what did 53 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: they want to do with the embryo that the lab 54 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: had mistakenly defrosted? 55 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: And the embryologists sort of took over the conversation and 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: he was like, well, your options are to refreeze the 57 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 3: one that we have defrosted, and we will then defrost 58 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 3: the one you wanted and we'll transfer that, or we 59 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: do the transfer with the one that we have defrosted. 60 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 3: You don't even refreeze chicken. We're not refreezing an embryo. 61 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 6: How can you do. 62 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: That to something that could potentially be a baby? 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: Dina and B had reason to be skeptical about this. 64 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: Studies show that the process of thawing and refreezing can 65 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: risk eroding the quality of an embryo. Because of this, 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: experts told me it's relatively uncommon to thaw twice. They 67 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: told me it's still possible to get pregnant, but it 68 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: really depends on the quality of the embryo at the outset. 69 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: Nothing is every one hundred percent guaranteed. But as Dina 70 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: and B remember it, the kind Body embryologists said, the 71 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: chances of the embryo transfer leading to a pregnancy would 72 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: be unchanged. Dina and B just weren't buying it. 73 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 3: To a point where you're definitely calling bullshit, Like, yeah, 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: you were unbelieving it in no way. And also we 75 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 3: didn't have many embryos at all. Every single one was 76 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 3: so precious and valuable. 77 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: The embryology lab is the heart of a fertility clinic. 78 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: In here, patient's hopes of making a baby are in 79 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: the hands of embryologists who do painstakingly precise work, and 80 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: the environment has to be just right temperature, humidity, air quality, 81 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: all of these things have to be absolutely perfect. When 82 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: I first heard about dnnb's embryo mix up, I wondered 83 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: if it was an isolated incident. After months of investigating, 84 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 2: I learned that it wasn't. Kind Body didn't deny the 85 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: mistakes happened, but didn't comment on specifics other than to 86 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: say that it had completed incident reports. The company also 87 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 2: said that accidents happen across the fertility industry. But here's 88 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: what makes reporting on fertility so complicated. This is a 89 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 2: field where success is never guaranteed. Even when things go 90 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: more or less okay during treatment, heartbreak is built into 91 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: the process. So how do you distinguish between inevitable disappointments 92 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: and preventable mistakes? How many errors are too many? And 93 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: in an industry with little oversight, how would anyone even know? 94 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: From Bloomberg and iHeart podcasts, this is IVF disrupted the 95 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: kind Body story. I'm Jackie Devolos. I wanted to understand 96 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: how the mistake involving Dina and B's embryo occurred and 97 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: if this was a one off air or a pattern 98 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: of mistakes at kind Body. To do this, I reached 99 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: out to dozens of current and former employees. I learned 100 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 2: that in twenty twenty one, the same year that Kindbody 101 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: thought the wrong embryo for Dina ANDB at its Brian 102 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: Park lab, Kind Body accidentally destroyed two other embryos at 103 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: the same location. Former employees told me one was dropped 104 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: on the ground, another was damaged after accidentally being left 105 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: out in room temperature. This happened to be that patient's 106 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: very last embryo. She was offered unlimited free IVF to 107 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: make up for the mistake, but she never managed to conceive. 108 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: At Kind Body, It's unclear what or who is responsible 109 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: for these embryos being mixed up or destroyed, but as 110 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: I talked to former employees, some themes started to emerge 111 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: about a series of conditions that opened Kind Body up 112 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: to mistakes. According to former employees I spoke with, one 113 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: of these problems was persistent understaffing. Tracy Sosa, the medical 114 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: assistant who worked with Dina NB, said that their clinic 115 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 2: in Princeton didn't have a full time doctor or an 116 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: embryology lab even a year after opening Kind Bodies. Solution 117 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: was to send doctors who worked in nearby clinics to 118 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: see patients in New Jersey, and when patients like Dina 119 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: and B needed procedures, they were asked to travel into 120 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: Manhattan to other Kind Body clinics. This isn't standard in 121 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: the fertility industry, but Kind Body told its staff it 122 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: was a temporary solution. 123 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 7: Here's Tracy, the doctors that did flow through there, they 124 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,559 Speaker 7: were just not there on a consistent basis to build 125 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 7: the appropriate retour with the patient base. Not fair to 126 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 7: the patient and not fair to the skeleton grew that 127 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 7: they came there for almost two years. 128 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Tracy watched while kind Body was opening new clinics 129 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: in Atlanta, the Bay Area, in Orlando. 130 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 7: We still didn't have a full time in day and 131 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 7: they was taking on opening up another time practices. I 132 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 7: bet you take care of the ones that are already 133 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 7: open before you go ahead, Willing Nelly opening up another time. 134 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 7: There were other practices that were already opened that we're 135 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 7: having issues too, not just prime Stay. Why are you opening? 136 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 7: Why do you have plans knocking down holes for another ten? 137 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,599 Speaker 7: Kind Body, Disney, kind Body. 138 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 6: This get them, It's stop your nonsense. 139 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: In comments for this podcast, kind Body said it's common 140 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: industry practice for a fertility doctors to work in multiple 141 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 2: locations within a chain of clinics. Tracy said the shuffle 142 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: of patients back and forth between locations created confusion and 143 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: made staff more vulnerable to making errors. The patients I 144 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: spoke with said sometimes details about a treatment plan were 145 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: miscommunicated from one nurse to another, or medication dosages got 146 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 2: messed up, or a procedure was scheduled at one clinic, 147 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: but the clinic performing that procedure didn't get the memo. 148 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: And even when patients did end up at Kind Bodies 149 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: clinics in Manhattan, whether it was in Bryant Park or 150 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: Flat Iron, those locations were also struggling. 151 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 8: We were bare bones with staff trying to be able 152 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 8: to see patients. Although that's what it's supposed to be about, 153 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 8: that was always the least important part to them. 154 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 2: We're calling this woman Lauren. We are not using her 155 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 2: real name. She and some others you'll hear from and 156 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: the series asked for anonymity because Kind Body has threatened 157 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: legal action against employees they believed were talking to journalists. 158 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: We agreed to have a voice actor read, which she 159 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: told us in an interview. Lauren was part of Kind 160 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: Body's clinical staff in New York's Brian Park and Flat 161 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: Iron clinics in twenty twenty one. 162 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 8: They wanted to spend money on the things that were 163 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 8: seen outwardly. Every week, we had huge bouquets of flowers 164 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 8: in the office. They did a lot of videos. They 165 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 8: had professional photographers, professional videographers coming in to do all 166 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 8: these things. All that was way more important than medical care. 167 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 8: They didn't want a staff, and so they went from 168 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 8: four nurses to one. And they quit because they kept 169 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 8: being told, well, we're a startup. We just need you 170 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 8: to buck up. We need you to do the job. 171 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 8: This is what it is. So they'd be working twelve 172 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 8: hour days or more five six plus days a week. 173 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 8: It was just we're going to read the same amount 174 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 8: of existing work over those who were left. 175 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: During this time, she says, the turnover also started to 176 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: affect the most important part of an IVF clinic, the 177 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: embryology lab. I reached out to former lab employees who 178 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: told me it was hard to keep up with the 179 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: mounting patient load and that training for new staff was rushed. 180 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: They also said that lab leadership kept changing and embryologists 181 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: were on the verge of burnout. So former employees said 182 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: kind Body had major staffing problems, But they also said 183 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: the company wasn't spending enough money on the labs themselves. 184 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: I was brought on as the lead embryologist with potential 185 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: to have some input and ideology about how this is 186 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: going to be built out. 187 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: That's Stephanie Maddie. Stephanie had been working as an embryologist 188 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: for about seven years when she was recruited by kind 189 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: Body in twenty nineteen. These were the early startup days 190 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: when kind Body was offering hormone testing from the bright 191 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: yellow bus. They hadn't completed construction on their first clinic yet. 192 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: Stephanie specialized in egg freezing, but the company wanted her 193 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,239 Speaker 2: help in thinking about how to build out their embryology 194 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: labs in IVF practice. Soon after she started the job, 195 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 2: she started to feel concerned and began asking questions. 196 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: How can we establish ourselves so that we are building 197 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: a lab and what is our goal? These were just 198 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: never conversations that were had or topics that seemed to 199 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: come forth. 200 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: Early on, she moved into a brand new clinic on 201 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: Fifth Avenue in Manhattan along with other kind Body staff, 202 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: and while she was impressed by its entrance and waiting room, 203 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: she says that behind the scenes, the lab facilities were lacking. 204 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: For one, there was no embryology lab at the new office, 205 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: and while it did have a seaman analysis lab, she says, 206 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: the way it was set up felt like an afterthought. 207 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: They literally built it into this closet space. You would 208 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: open the door, and basically it was a very awkward shape. 209 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: It went to a point in the back. It's supposed 210 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: to be a utility closet. It's not supposed to It's 211 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: not a room, it's not an office, it's a utility closet. 212 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: It seemed like so much money was being invested into 213 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: like what it looked like forward facing. I was so 214 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: surprised that it was like, oh no, no, we're doing 215 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: Seaman analysis in basically this tiny closet space. 216 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: The company told her a bigger space was coming, but 217 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: for now, this was where her work had to be done. 218 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: We had one dusk up against the wall, and usually 219 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: you'd want a hood of some kind because if fumes 220 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: are any kind of pathogens, and granted, as embryologists, we 221 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: took every precaution necessary to be able to maintain a 222 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: proper standard. When you have so much money being fueled 223 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: into a company, and then you know, you go to 224 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: the back and this is what you're dealing with. I've 225 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: worked in everything from fully funded hospital labs, things like 226 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: ventilation are super important and things like that which had 227 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: not been established into the building, and this was just 228 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know what they called like a 229 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: temporary situation. But it was just frustrating to see that again, 230 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm not like, I don't run businesses, but I do 231 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: understand laboratories. And my specialty comes from, you know, being 232 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: in different all different kinds of labs because when we're 233 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: walking into our labs, we have to know what's going 234 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: on because it directly affects our embryos. 235 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: Ventilation systems are important because they filter out toxic fumes, 236 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: vapors or dusts that could harm the sample. And embryologists 237 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: is handling things like. 238 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 9: You know, acid, aldehydes, styrene, which you know polystyreneates plastics. 239 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 9: You know, a lot of this can come from petroleum products, 240 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 9: so road construction glues, you know, laying down carpets, laying 241 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 9: down tiles. There's a lot of these things that though 242 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 9: what we call their embryotoxic. You know, these things get 243 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 9: into your air, get into your incubators. 244 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 6: You know, they can. 245 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 9: Really affect how embryos grow they gave it affect pregnancy rates. 246 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: This is Eva Schenkman. She's been an embryologist for over 247 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: thirty years. After working for fertility clinics all over the 248 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: East Coast, she struck out on her own as a 249 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: consultant and started a training program for aspiring embryologists. Around 250 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: the time the first couple of kind Body clinics were 251 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: cropping up. Kind Body's founder, Gina courted her in hopes 252 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: of bringing Eva on board to run some of its labs, 253 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: and Eva said she had some questions. 254 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 9: It had a very, very nice pitch, but I'm more 255 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 9: interested in the science behind the labs than the front room. 256 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 9: I want to see the back room. I don't care 257 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 9: about your front room. I wanted to know more about 258 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 9: the air handling systems they were building in the lab, 259 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 9: what sort of technology they were incorporating. 260 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: Think of air handling systems like a protective shield for 261 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: the lab. Things like HVAC systems regulate temperature, humidity, and 262 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: air quality to create the ideal environment for embryos to thrive. 263 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: Even the smallest disruption in these conditions could affect whether 264 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: an IVF procedure succeeds or fails. 265 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 9: I've worked at a lab where we saw a drop 266 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 9: in pregnancy rates and it was later attributed to the 267 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 9: building over was getting the roof retarmaced for the helicopter pad, 268 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 9: and our air intake system was just downwind from where 269 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 9: the helipad was going to be, so as they were 270 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 9: pouring all of that asphalt and all of those petroleum 271 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 9: based products. That stuff was getting sucked right into our 272 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 9: HVAC system. 273 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: So Eva was skeptical about kind Body's founding strategy of 274 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: putting everything labs and clinics under one roof in places 275 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: with lots of foot traffic. 276 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 9: Putting things in a retail heavy section, whether it's near 277 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 9: a soul's sidechael or yoga or something else. It's like 278 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 9: putting a scientific lab in a mall. You're gonna have issues. 279 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 9: You got it probably close to the roof because you 280 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 9: need to usually mount those systems on the roof. These 281 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 9: air handling systems, they're not cheap. 282 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: Eva said she noticed the labs were small, but she 283 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 2: said kind Body told her that these labs were just 284 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: a starting point. Bigger labs would be built down the line. 285 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: But Eva also saw that some of Kindbody's leases were 286 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: as short as five years in some cases. It didn't 287 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: seem plausible to her that they would be rebuilt in 288 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: time to manage the flow of patients that kind Body 289 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: was aiming for. 290 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 9: Just seemed like it was setting it up for these 291 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 9: were going to be very short staffed. Labs weren't up 292 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 9: to the size that I would have said that they 293 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 9: needed for the volume that they wanted to. 294 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: Do, Eva said, conversations with kind Body fizzled out. 295 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 9: I would rather align myself with a project where I 296 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 9: can build a lab and I want it to be 297 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 9: one of the best labs out there that is going 298 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 9: to be providing a safe environment for these embryos. I 299 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 9: would have been very frustrated if that wasn't something that 300 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 9: I was free to do. 301 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: As for Stephanie, she said that to her, all of this, 302 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: the tiny lab and the mcguivred closet, the promises of 303 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: upgrades down the line, revealed what kind Body was actually prioritizing. 304 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: As much as they were spending money, it seemed like 305 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: forward facing and developing the front facing clinics like the 306 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: facades I called them. There was constantly this, Okay, how 307 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: can we save money, how can we cut costs? It 308 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: was just again shocking to see so many offices opening up, 309 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: and while that was happening, our embryology program felt like 310 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: it was falling behind all of that. 311 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: Disillusioned, Stephanie quit after just a few months. In the 312 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: year after she left, Kindbody opened four clinics and started 313 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: to pick up the pace. At one point in twenty 314 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 2: twenty one, there was a new clinic about every other month. 315 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: I talked to a former employee who was hired to 316 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: help with the expansion during this time. He also asked 317 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: for anonymity to discuss kind Body A voice actor is 318 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 2: reading what he told me that is. 319 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 10: An astronomical growth spurt. When I was brought on, there 320 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 10: were some problems with projects that were already underway. 321 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 2: This included Brian Park, where former employees told me HVAC 322 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: issues were a constant problem, but more issues cropped up. 323 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 2: In Austin. Employees told me that a sewer pipe that 324 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: released foul smelling gases into the clinic took weeks to fix. 325 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 2: In Atlanta, the ceiling above the nursing station collapsed and 326 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: unleashed a flood of water from the vent. When I 327 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: asked kind Body about these incidents, it acknowledged the disruptions, 328 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: saying the company took immediate action and that no patients, tissue, 329 00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: or embryos were directly impacted. But former employees said that 330 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: instead of slowing down and fixing issues at existing clinics, 331 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: the company just kept opening new ones. The employee who 332 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: worked on expansion, said, Kind Bodies rush to open clinics 333 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: started to catch up with the company. 334 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 10: And what's so unfortunate is everything needs to stay perfect 335 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 10: in these circumstances, because how fragile the situation is. And again, 336 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 10: I think a lot of that was the hype of 337 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 10: how amazing kind Body should be and can be, and 338 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 10: it was a real pressing on all of us to 339 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 10: go faster, faster, faster, faster, faster. And when you go faster, 340 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 10: sometimes you miss an exit, sometimes you run off the 341 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 10: road a little bit, and you just got to keep going. 342 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Dina and b, the couple from 343 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: New Jersey, knew nothing about the concerns Embryology had raised 344 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: about Kind Body's early labs when Dina was sitting on 345 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: the exam table hearing that kind Body had defrosted the 346 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: wrong embryo. And remember they were up in New York 347 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: at the Bryant Park clinic because their clinic in Princeton 348 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: didn't even have a lab or an embryologist. But here 349 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: they were, and now they had to decide what to 350 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 2: do next. 351 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 3: We couldn't take a risk now of this refreezing process. 352 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: At this point, Dina and B say, they didn't trust 353 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: the doctor or the embryologist. They didn't have time to 354 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 2: consult family, a friend, or another medical provider. 355 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 3: So we were like, okay, absolutely devastated. Let's just put 356 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: that aside because we'll handle that later. We were like, Okay, 357 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: we've quickly got to shake that off because we've a 358 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 3: got to make a decision and b got to be 359 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 3: really happy with the decision because we know so much 360 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: of a successful transfer is in your mindset and for 361 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 3: your body to be aligned chemically with good vibes. Let's 362 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 3: get positive and excited about whatever decision we're about to make. 363 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 3: We don't want to refreeze whatever you have defrusted. We're 364 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 3: going to go ahead and do the transfer. And they 365 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: were like, okay, great. 366 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 6: Let's go. 367 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: Ten days later, they found out Dina wasn't pregnant. 368 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 5: Well, with any unsuccessful transfers, we were pretty devastated, but 369 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,239 Speaker 5: I think with this one it was even more of 370 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 5: a slab in the face. 371 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 6: We were just scutted. 372 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 5: That was a whole other set of emotions with that, 373 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 5: because knowing what could have happened or what happened was 374 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 5: another whole spiral down mentally and emotionally for us. You 375 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 5: trust in people and doctors and whatnot, and you put 376 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 5: all your good faith in them. 377 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 2: Tracy Sosa, the medical assistant who had bonded with Dina 378 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 2: and B at the clinic in Princeton, remembers how she 379 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: felt when she heard that the wrong embryo was defrosted for. 380 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 11: Them, and I was like, what happened? I could not 381 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 11: believe my ears. 382 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 7: Human error does happen, But you have to make sure 383 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 7: that all the chains of command are followed and ID 384 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 7: numbers are met. It's not just by name, it's not 385 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 7: just by date of birth. I'm like shaken just thinking 386 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 7: about it, because that's something that's just hammered into Europe, Like, 387 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 7: oh my god, the chain of command, the hands that 388 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 7: that goes through. 389 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 2: Dina and B told me that in the weeks after 390 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 2: the wrong embryo was defrosted, kind Body went into damage 391 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: control mode. 392 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 3: And they offered all their apologies and whatever, yeah, their 393 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: lip service. 394 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: To make up for the error. They offered to make 395 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 2: the next transfer free of charge. Kind Body went to 396 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 2: great lengths to assure Dina and B that this was 397 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: a one off incident, that it had been handled. I 398 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: wrote an article about lab errors at kind Body in 399 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: October twenty twenty three, which included the embryo mix up 400 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: with DNNB. I asked kind Body about that incident and 401 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: two others at Brian Park that former employees told me about, 402 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: one where an embryo was dropped on the ground and 403 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: another when an embryo is damaged after accidentally being left 404 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: out at room temperature. The company acknowledged them and said, quote, 405 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: no kind Body Laboratory has had an incident, accident, or 406 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: other issue that is unusual to what occurs in IVF 407 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: laboratories generally. Kind Body said that across all of its clinics, 408 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: it has an average incident rate of zero point two percent, 409 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: a rate that it says is in line with other 410 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: fertility clinics. I was curious about this number. I had 411 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: done months of research into how often airs and IVF 412 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: labs happen and had never come across it. There's a 413 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 2: reason for that. In the US, fertility clinics do report 414 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: certain things like the number of IVF cycles they perform 415 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: and how many result in live births, but the government 416 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: doesn't require them to report errors. So where was Kindbody 417 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: getting the statistic? 418 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,239 Speaker 12: No one had really looked at this area, and so 419 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 12: we you know, we had the feeling we were hopefully 420 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 12: being responsible in the way we were doing things in 421 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 12: the lab, but you know, you never know. 422 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: Basically, that's Stanny Sakis. He's the chief scientific officer at 423 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: Boston AVF, a clinic that's part of one of the 424 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: largest fertility networks in the US. The number that kind 425 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 2: body cited that came from a study of error rates 426 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: that he conducted in one lab his lab. I interviewed 427 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: doctor Sakis last year. 428 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 12: When you know you're training people, everyone's busy, and you've 429 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 12: got new people, one of the things you want to 430 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 12: be careful of is that you know you're not making mistakes. 431 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 12: So we were actually investigating to see if our number 432 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 12: of errors had changed. 433 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 2: He says. He tracked any break from the lab's protocols. 434 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: Did anyone miscount the number of eggs retrieved, did someone 435 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 2: misspell a name on a sample. Everything was recorded, even 436 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: small mistakes that didn't affect the outcome. He crunched twelve 437 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: years worth of data. He told me some of his 438 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 2: colleagues were nervous about releasing his findings because no one 439 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: else had done this. 440 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 12: There were some concerns we were showing out dirty underwear. 441 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 12: We were putting everything out there. 442 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: In doctor Sakus's lab, Serious errors like those I was 443 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 2: hearing about in kind bodies Brian Park clinic, the ones 444 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 2: that disrupt an IVF cycle only happened once every two 445 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: thousand cycles. Doctor Sakis stressed to me that his results 446 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: were representative of his lab and his protocols, not the industry. 447 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: I asked if he thought it was fair that kind 448 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: Body used statistics from his study to compare incidents across 449 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: its entire chain of clinics. 450 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 12: To be honest, probably not. 451 00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 7: No. 452 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 12: We would look at clinic or even per embryologists even 453 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 12: to see if there's any indication. So I think it's 454 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 12: hard to say to dilute out the numbers and procedures across. 455 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 12: We have eleven clinics, but we look at each clinic separately, 456 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 12: and one of the reasons you track these things is 457 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 12: you want to see where the errors are occurring. We 458 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 12: broke it. 459 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: I asked kind Body for stats about error rates at 460 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 2: particular clinics. The company declined to disclose them, using just 461 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: the errors I knew about at its Bryant Park clinic. 462 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, doctor Sakis helped me calculate the 463 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: rate of serious errors there. For that year, the clinic 464 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: had done about eight hundred and thirty total IVF cycles. 465 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: My reporting identified three mistakes that significantly impacted the patients cycle. 466 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: That was more than seven times the level of similar 467 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: errors in doctor Sachs's study. We'll be right back back home. 468 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 2: Dina and b wade to move forward. They were so 469 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: dispirited they even talked about giving up on trying to 470 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: carry their own babies. 471 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 3: But we knew, you know, we had these two embryos 472 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 3: and we were going to give it everything we got. 473 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 3: And we definitely had the conversation though that if these 474 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: two didn't work, like we were going back to the 475 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 3: drawing board, and would that potentially include adoption because we 476 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 3: were just so exhausted with the process. 477 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: But if they did move forward, should they keep working 478 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: with kind body or go somewhere new. 479 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 3: It was definitely a conversation we had, Like, look, we 480 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: moved clinics once we could move again. 481 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: The idea of starting over again with another clinic was 482 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: exhausting to Dina and B. 483 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 6: We were just so in it. 484 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 3: You get to a point where, like you only have 485 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 3: so much capacity for what is ahead of you, and 486 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 3: we had nothing left to be able to think about 487 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 3: what that would involve. They knew us, they knew our history, 488 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: like we wouldn't wrap our heads around starting from square 489 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 3: one again. 490 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: And like many patients who rely on insurance to pay 491 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: for fertility treatment, Dina and b were tethered to kind Body. 492 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 3: The benefit package was so appealing through Dina's employer that financially. 493 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 6: We couldn't have gone anywhere else. We were stuck. 494 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 5: I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars we were saving, 495 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 5: for sure. It's incredible how expensive it is. I mean 496 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 5: between the two of us it had been over one 497 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 5: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. 498 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: They decided to take a vacation, a break from the appointments, injections, 499 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: and disappointment. They got back to New Jersey feeling refreshed 500 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: and ready to give IVF one more try with kind Body. 501 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: After all, they still had two embryos left. 502 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 3: And it just happens that our our cycles were aligned, 503 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: and we're like, let's just both go. It's probably not 504 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: going to work again because it hasn't done so far. 505 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 3: But then our cycles synced up, literally exact to a 506 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 3: point where we did the transfer within minutes of each other, 507 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 3: and so we went in together and Dina sat on 508 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: the table first, and they do the transfer and you 509 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 3: watch it go in and then they were like okay, 510 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: and I was already changed. I was like, don't even 511 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 3: bother changing the piece of paper on the table. 512 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 6: She's my wife. I'll just sit on it. It's not 513 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 6: a big deal, you know, It's fine. 514 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, So then I just got on the table and 515 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 3: they did the same. 516 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: Dina and b were going through the process together, side 517 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: by side. 518 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: So we had zero hopes to a point where we 519 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 3: weren't even counting usually, like you know, you count those 520 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 3: ten days until you take the test, and every day 521 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 3: is like a year. We were like, okay, don't even care. 522 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: And then we went in and took the blood tests, 523 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: and then our nurses at our own clinic were really 524 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: sweet and they called us and they were like, you're pregnant. 525 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 6: And we were like, oh my god, amazing, and they're like, no, 526 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 6: but you both are. 527 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: Now we're definitely going through all of this together. 528 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 5: We kept thinking one of us is definitely going to. 529 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 6: Go early because we're old. 530 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 5: They said, once we got to forty weeks, they were 531 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 5: going to induce us. So we both that morning, we're 532 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,719 Speaker 5: driving over to the hospital together pregnant drivers, drove ourselves 533 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 5: into huge bellies and checked in and in the same 534 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 5: room and everything up until the last bit of it. 535 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 6: We were next door to each other. 536 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 3: And then I was still going in labor, so I'd 537 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 3: had my epidural, so I had to watch Dina give 538 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 3: birth over FaceTime on the computer. On the computer, so 539 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 3: my labor went through the night by the time I 540 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: had to have a C section on Sunday morning, so 541 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 3: Dina was able to get up and out of bed 542 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 3: and could come into my surgery. So the twins technically 543 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: because they were born sixteen hours apart, within twenty four hours, 544 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: but it was the twenty first and twenty seconds, so 545 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 3: they have different birthdays. 546 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 6: So it took a long time to happen. But then 547 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 6: when it happened, it was just wild. 548 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 5: Yeah it is and it's crazy. 549 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, we just we kind of put it down to like, 550 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: we put this thing into the universe by transferring at 551 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 3: the same time, and the universe came back and was like, Okay, 552 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 3: I see what you did here, and this is what 553 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 3: you're going to get. And so for all the shitty 554 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 3: stuff we went through, and not at any point did 555 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: we think about having twins or being pregnant at the 556 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 3: same time. That wasn't in our plan. But what we 557 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 3: realized going through this is that you just can't have 558 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 3: a plan, you just have to go with it. 559 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 6: We were like, oh my god, now we have to 560 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 6: go home with. 561 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 5: Two babies, and we're both exhausted. 562 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 6: And everything hurts and we're exhausted. 563 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: Dina and b got their happy ending babies conceived and 564 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: birthed at almost the same time through YVF after years 565 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: of heartache, through luck, resilience, and science, but they were 566 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: taken aback when kind Body wanted to feature them in 567 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: a pr campaign. 568 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, they reached out. 569 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 6: To share our story. 570 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: Kind Body was on the ascent, It had ten clinics 571 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: in counting, and it just raised a fresh round of 572 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 2: venture capital that would allow it to expand even more. 573 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: And Dina and Bee's remarkable journey two moms pregnant simultaneously 574 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: giving birth just hours apart would have made for a 575 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: perfect success story to show off during this moment of 576 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 2: explosive growth. 577 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe a month or so. They were following up. 578 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 5: But we thought about it, but then we werely, no, 579 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 5: it's just not something that we really feel like being 580 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 5: a part of. 581 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: We were like, yeah, you know what, you're not taking 582 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 3: credit for this one. We're not being part of your promo. 583 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: It would have just been so fake. They were ready 584 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 3: to put us in front of the promotion for success, 585 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: but you could guarantee that the process of getting to 586 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 3: that point, they weren't going to be ready to talk about. 587 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 3: So what they had done wrong or mishandled, we knew 588 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 3: wasn't going to be part of the story, and it's 589 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 3: part of our story. 590 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: Kind body went ahead without them. They had momentum, they 591 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: were already on track to open new clinics and had 592 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: begun planning to go public. The company also promised Dina 593 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: and b that what happened to them wouldn't happen again 594 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: to any patient. 595 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 3: We got emails from our doctor saying that there had 596 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 3: been meetings about this case, not only internally within our clinic, 597 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 3: but also when they had national meetings, and this came 598 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 3: up to the effect of changing procedurally what happened in 599 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 3: the lab in terms of defrustating embryos, and so they 600 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 3: told us that the procedures were going to change because 601 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 3: of this, to make sure it never happened again. 602 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 2: Coming up on IVF Disrupted the Kind Body Story. 603 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 11: On the day of the transfer, however, things went from 604 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 11: bad to worse. The clinic staff were unable to identify, 605 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 11: Oh my god, which embryo was ours because they had 606 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 11: some unlabeled embryos in their storage. 607 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 6: And I don't remember a word. They just stunned in 608 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 6: front of me. I was crying. They told us they 609 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 6: don't have the embryo. 610 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: IVF Disrupted The Kind Body Story is reported and hosted 611 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 2: by me Jackie Devallos. The series is produced by Sean 612 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: Wen and Jilda to Carly, editing by Caitlin Kenney, Jeff Grocott, 613 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: and Joshua Brustein. Blake Maples is our sound engineer. Voice 614 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: acting in this episode was provided by Diana Johnston, Mark Leedorff, 615 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 2: and Tina Marie Murray. Fact checking by Aiica Robbins. Bloomberg's 616 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 2: Senior executive editor for Technology is Tom Giles. Our head 617 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: of podcasting is Sage Bauman. You can reach us at 618 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: Podcasts at Bloomberg dot net. IVF Disrupted is a production 619 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 2: of Bloomberg and iHeart Podcasts.