1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want you to imagine 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: when you take your family outside to grill out, maybe steaks, 3 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: maybe hamburgers, a really festive occasion. You're celebrating something, maybe 4 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: your recent engagement. You've got your family out there on 5 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: a beautiful, cool evening, and suddenly, out of nowhere, your husband, 6 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: your boyfriend, your brother grabs your arm and looks over, 7 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: and you look over too, and you see a quote 8 00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: long shiny black gun pointing at you and your family 9 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Then you run, you run to save 10 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: your life, and you hear gunshots ringing out behind you, 11 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: and then you find out that everything you loved is dead. 12 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: Just told that thought. I mean, see, Grace, this is 13 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at 14 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. I'm telling you 15 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: a story, a true story, a story I note intimately. 16 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: It's the story of a gorgeous young guy, Stephen Hines, 17 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: and a beautiful, full young woman, his fiancee, Katherine Moore. 18 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: It's the story of Stephen Hines's family who have joined 19 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: together to stop the parole of the killers that gunned 20 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: down Stephen Hines in the prime of his life. And 21 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: we I here at crime Stories. We are all joining 22 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the fight. Why not just because of Steven's murder of 23 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: Catherine's fear, but because the two perps that murdered Stephen 24 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: had just gotten out of jail on guess what parole 25 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: they served A very very brief portion of a long sentence, 26 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: a hard thought case for multiple armed with weapons robberies, 27 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: a string terrorizing the city of Atlanta. They go to 28 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: jail and then they get out, And what do they do? 29 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: As soon as they get out get a gun, two 30 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: of them and shoot down Stephen. Hinz. What do you 31 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: think they're gonna do when pardon in paroles lets them 32 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: walk free? What? Go work at Walmart? Go go to 33 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: Costco as a greeter? Oh hell no, They're gonna get 34 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: out and get a gun. Please help us stop this 35 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: parole with me not only an all star panel to 36 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: dissect what we know now and how we can stop 37 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: this thing, but with me, it is a very special guest. 38 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: Catherine Moore, the fiancee I told you about. Also with me, 39 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: David Hines, this is Stevens brother who has never stopped 40 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: fighting for justice. With me, Renee Rockwell, criminal defense attorney, 41 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: joining us out of Atlanta on Facebook Renee dot Rockwell 42 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: who attended the trial. Doctor Bethany Marshall, high profile psycho 43 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: analyst to the stars, Joining me out of la at 44 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 45 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and 46 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: the Hit of an host of a new hit series, 47 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph got Morgan, a longtime friend and colleague. 48 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: A high profile lawyer joining me out of California. Daniel Harwitz. 49 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: You can find him at Lawyers in Lafayette dot com. 50 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: But not only is he a friend and colleague, he 51 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: is an ardent supporter a fair pardon in parole and 52 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: as fought against the parole the release of the man 53 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: that murdered his wife. But first to Alexis Dreschuk Crime 54 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter Alexis am I correct that 55 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: both Henry Hamilton and Michael Fortson had just gotten out 56 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: of jail for a string of robberies, armed robberies where 57 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: they would put the gun in people's faces to get 58 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: their wallet, their money, their pocketbook. Isn't that true? It 59 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: is Henry Hamilton had been out of prison for three 60 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: months before the murder, and you know what he was. 61 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: He'd been paroled. He served seven and a half years 62 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: of a forty year sentence. Well, hold on, wait a minute, 63 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: Alexis rs chuck. He had been out three months, that's true, 64 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: but he had not been twiddling his thumbs or visiting 65 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: the library with his library card during those three months. 66 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: By the time he had gunned down Stephen Hines, he 67 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: had already committed another string of armed robberies with his 68 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: cousin Michael Fortson. They weren't visiting the knitting club or 69 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: playing bingo at the church recreation hall. Oh no, they 70 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: had already in just three months started armed robbing again. 71 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: And let me go to you, Daniel Harwitz. You have 72 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: represented many many criminals, isn't it true? And take off 73 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: your defense half for just one moment. When any clients 74 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: get out of jail, they really don't know, or don't 75 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: want to know, any other kind of life. They go 76 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: right back to what they've done in the past. Nancy, 77 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I actually have a client who played 78 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: guilty to a homicide, got out and dedicated his life 79 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: to providing ways for people who get out to live normal, 80 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: healthy lives, and he ended up working in the prison system. 81 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: He was so good at it. But generally they get 82 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: out and they go to the same group of friends, 83 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: they start using drugs or doing whatever to prave things 84 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: drove them to be violent in the first place, And 85 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: with no counseling and no fundamental change in who they 86 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: are or what made them the way they are, they 87 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: commit crimes. Again, it's really not a question of whether 88 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: they're going to commit crimes, just when they're going to 89 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: hurt another human being. And you know what, Daniel Horrowitz, 90 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: that was a burden. It just was on my back 91 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: so heavily as the prosecutor because I know this. They're 92 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: not just anecdotal stories. We're telling about what happened to 93 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: us when we tried cases and how many people we 94 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: put behind bars. It's a statistic the likelihood that someone 95 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: will reaffend and the same offense. My point is, if 96 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: Michael Fortson gets out of jail, if pardon em perole 97 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: let him walk free, he will do the same thing again. 98 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: I want you if I could jump in about that 99 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: for a quick second. These criminals who are just cooling 100 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: their jets in jail, they're not saying to themselves, Oh, 101 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to take responsibility for the crime I committed, 102 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: whether I killed somebody or I stole property. I feel 103 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: victimized by the state and by everybody who put me here. 104 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: I feel like my life has gotten stolen from me, 105 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: so I'm going to go back and steal again. And 106 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: this is the kind of psycho psychopathology that drives people 107 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: who cannot own their mistakes. They always always feel that 108 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: it's everybody else his fault. But in this type of 109 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 1: a on a grand scale, in a criminal justice system, 110 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: these guys feel that others have offended against them, so 111 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: they're going to go out and offend. So that's why 112 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: the cycle repeats, and why it's good that this organization 113 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: is keeping people from getting out on control earlier than 114 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: they should. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I want 115 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: to guide to Catherine Moore, the fiance of Stephen Hines 116 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: and David Hines, his brother. But I'm hearing in my 117 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: ear that criminal defense attorney Renee Rockwell has joined us 118 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: and she's actually in court on a case and has 119 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: stepped out to give us her recollection of this trial. 120 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: And let me tell you it was hard fought. I 121 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: tried the co defendant, Henry Hamilton myself, and this is 122 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: not an easy case. Renee. Thank you for being with us. 123 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: Renee Rockwell, criminal defense attorney in Atlanta and multiple jurisdictions. Renee, 124 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure you recall the trial of Henry Hamilton, the 125 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: very same fact scenario. These two were cousins, co defendants. 126 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you were there every single day. 127 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: You saw the Hines family, all of them. David Hines, 128 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: did you have eight or nine brothers and sisters? Oh, 129 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: dear lord, I thought I had gone too high. Yeah, 130 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: thank you for refreshing my recollection. The Hines family there 131 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: in force to support their brothers, the last thing they 132 00:10:55,240 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: could do for him after his murder. Renee Rockwell, what 133 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: are your recollections of the trial, Nancy? Was this not 134 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: a retrial? Yeah, you're right. The first case, the defendants, 135 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: Henry Hamilton and Michael Fortson were tried together. Now here's 136 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: the problem with that. Before I go into any constitutional drama, 137 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: they were tried together in Ay and they had what 138 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: we call interlocking statements. In other words, when Hamilton gave 139 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: his statement, he basically blamed Fortson when Fortson gave his 140 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: statement he blamed Hamilton. When they are tried together, you 141 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: can't force a defendant on the stance, so you cannot 142 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: cross examine that statement. Therefore, simply put, they should have 143 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: been tried separately. By the time I got them, I 144 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: retried one of them, and remember I only had that 145 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: hat to say, kissed my bass. We had to reconstruct 146 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: the entire case. That's why there had been a previous trial, 147 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: and it was reversed first my Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals. 148 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: Now that puts me back to my original question, Renee, 149 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: what do you recall of the trial, Nancy? And this 150 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: is just on a personal note, not as a defense 151 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: attorney that would or would not come in on parole, etc. 152 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: I recall you in the break you had a reoccurring 153 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: dream about the victim's fiance running up some steps, watching 154 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: her feet, trying to get help. And she was running 155 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: up the steps and you could see her blue as 156 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: the drill. I don't know why you kept remembering that, 157 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: but it was such a frantic dash first help and aid, 158 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: and nobody was answering the door. That's what your reoccurring 159 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: dream was regarding your prime witness in every night. I 160 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: had completely forgotten about that until you said it. And 161 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: it must have been because Catherine, I remember coming to 162 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: your beautiful little home in preparation for the trial, and 163 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: you had all these wonderful pictures of Stephen and you 164 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: told me about the night he was murdered. And I 165 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: don't know how I transposed that, and in the I did. 166 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: Renee's right, I would have a recurring dream every night 167 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: of the trial, and it was I was seeing everything 168 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: through your eyes and running. I know, to me that 169 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: was the least frightening thing, but I did. The gunshots 170 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: had already gone off, and when I ran in and 171 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: I banged on everybody's door and nobody would answer because 172 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: of the gunshots. Finally got to the top of the 173 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: fourth floor and there was a door leading out to 174 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: the roof and it was locked, and I thought, I 175 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: gotta take these shoes off, because what if they're coming 176 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: after me and hearing me? And You're right, I left. 177 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: I took him off and left them there. And I've 178 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: never worn a parabust for drilled again. You know what, 179 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: Katherine Moore, When at my fiance Cay's funeral, I remember 180 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: the smell of carnations nearly made me throw up. I 181 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: have never tolerated another carnation. The smell of them to 182 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: this day makes me just nauseous. You know what, Catherine, 183 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: can you just start at the beginning, because you and 184 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: Steven were actually toasting your engagement out there, billing out stakes, 185 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: as I recall that night, right, we were, and we 186 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: were chatting and beautiful evening, and like you said, he 187 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: grabbed my wrist and I thought it was a cat 188 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: or some beautiful creature that he wanted me to be 189 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: still for. And I turned to look and there was 190 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: a man crouching with a gun. It was a long, 191 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: skinny silver gun and with a cap on, and he's 192 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: covering its face, and he kept saying, don't look at me, 193 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: and then he said later on, he said you can 194 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: come on down now, buddy, and the other guy came down, 195 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: and then Stephen had already said the apartment doors wide, 196 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: you can go in. My wallets in there, take whatever 197 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: you want. But they've made a stand up and say 198 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: now you're going to enter the apartment, at which point 199 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Stephen kept to my wrist and we spun around and 200 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: ran and I heard like one, two, three, maybe four 201 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: more shots, and at some point we fell forward. I 202 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: noticed he got up, so I got up, and that's 203 00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: when I saw Stephen trying to headbut Fortson, who had 204 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: the gun, pointed at him, and as the gun was 205 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: pointed at him, it went off. I heard the shot 206 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: go off, and I saw the spark, and that's when 207 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: I just freaked out, like ump and ran up the stairs. 208 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: By the time I got back down and begged somebody 209 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: to let me in. By the time I got back down, 210 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: everybody those two were gone, and the police were there, 211 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: and that was already cordoned off, and it was it 212 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: was over. They wouldn't let me see him, and they 213 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't even tell me anything about him. But I had 214 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: a feeling, and it was horrible. What do you remember 215 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: of those moments of you running up the stairs, just panicked, like, 216 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: let me all the police, call the police, get somebody here, 217 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: help us, help us, um hoping that some but he 218 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: would call the police immediately and scare those guys off, 219 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: and that Stephen was still alive. When did you realize 220 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: that Stephen was not running up with you? Oh? I 221 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: knew immediately, because as soon as I saw that shot 222 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: go off and he heard saw the spark and heard 223 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: the shot that I just he was still trying to 224 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: tackle Sport. I didn't stand around and m watch them fight. 225 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: That's when I've freaked out and ran upstairs. Why were 226 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: they trying to force you into the apartment? Do you 227 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: believe they were going to rape you? I think that's what. 228 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: I don't have any idea what was in Stephen's mind 229 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: that I have a feeling he thought that. But anyway, 230 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, according to what I learned later, 231 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: that was their modus operandi. They made people go inside. 232 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: They pistol whipped them. They one guy one time, somebody 233 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: Hamilton tried to put a poker and somebody ear and 234 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: they tortured. Oh gosh, you know what you're reminding me of, Catherine. 235 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: David Hines also with me and everybody on the panel. Please, 236 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: this is not fifth grade English. I'm not going to 237 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: call on you. Jump in all right, please. I want 238 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: to hear every single bit of remembrance, recollection, knowledge, facts 239 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: that you have. Everybody. This is David, and yeah, you 240 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: know the horror of that night. I mean Kathy the house, 241 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: she survived, the horror of it. I don't know, but 242 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: the way the system is working right now that poor 243 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: woman Kathy Moore, Steven's love and fiance has to relive 244 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: this whole thing because the Pardon and the Paroles Board 245 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: in the state of Georgia is considering parole for these 246 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: two again. And here's the thing. Forts in the up 247 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: for parole right now. We have a campaign going to 248 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: communicate with Victim Services, which is part of the Pardons 249 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: in Parole Board, do not let this person out. We 250 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: demand that you deny parole from Michael Fortsune. But what 251 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: we have learned to continue the horror that Cathy has 252 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: to live is that the other guy, Hamilton, who was 253 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: denied parole in July of last year, because of the 254 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: effort that everybody made to communicate with the Pardons of 255 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: Parole Board not to let him out Tony parole for 256 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: he will be eligible for parole again again of this year. 257 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: June of this year. We're gonna you gotta do this 258 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: whole thing against Okay, in June, let's just burn one 259 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: bridge at a time. Okay, let's just burn that bridge 260 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: when we get there. Let's deal with fort And first, 261 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: because that's kind of an overload to me that if 262 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: we somehow managed to stop the prol of Forts, and 263 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: in just a couple of months we got to try 264 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: on Hamilton. Hey, David Hines too. I just it's just 265 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: more than I can take in. And David Hines, this 266 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: is Stephen Hines, the murder victims and brother. You were 267 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: just hearing Katherine Moore his fiancee. David, It's not like 268 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: these were babes in the woods. Remember their rap sheet. Okay, 269 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: David Hines, you were there when I tried Hamilton. Do 270 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: you know how hard it was to put back together 271 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: all those similar transactions that Catherine was talking about. What 272 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying is these guys, Michael Forts and Henry Hamilton, 273 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: had been praying on innocent victims for so long. She 274 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: described their m o modus operandi method of operation. They 275 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: would approached the victim with a weapon, forced him inside, 276 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: and I remember finding I was so happy I found 277 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: this victim from way back when that had been forced 278 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: inside and to make him give up what he had 279 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: and all he had with some change and like a 280 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: big jar where he threw his spirit, change all he 281 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: had in the house. They jammed a fire poker in 282 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: his ear until the blood was gushing down his head, 283 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: beat him up, pistol, whipped him everything. That's just one 284 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: of the many, many victims these guys have attacked, culminating 285 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: in murder, and now they're gonna get out and walk 286 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: free and terrorize innocent victims again. Didn't you just hear 287 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: Catherine's voice, David Hines, You got an industry of people 288 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: who catered to these killers. And while everybody else, the 289 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: victims are living their lives, this industry that's often government 290 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: funded or funded by donations, look at these criminals as 291 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: the victims, and they find that they were wounded as children, 292 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: and they put together parole packets. In the meantime, the 293 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: families of the victims have to constantly worry. After five years, 294 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: seven years, the parole hearings start again. So it's continually 295 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: victimizing the families of the victims and lionizing the killers 296 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: who have not changed fundamentally the entire parole system. Nancy 297 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: is wrong. They should have a fixed term of years 298 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: whatever is just, and serve it and leave the family 299 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: alone to rebuild their lives. And you know, Daniel Horrowitz, 300 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: you lad the campaign to keep your wife's killer behind bars, 301 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: And I've told you this before. Daniel Horrowitz that no 302 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: one even apprised me, told me contact to me. Then 303 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: my fiance say, murderer was gonna get out of jail. 304 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: I wasn't asked to comment, nothing, And I only found 305 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: out he was out when a viewer emailed me on 306 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: the public email line at Court TV. That is how 307 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: I found out the killer had walked free. I mean, 308 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: it's an outrage. David Hines, what do you recall about 309 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: the moment you learned what had happened to your brother Stephen. Well, 310 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: my brother Paul called me and told me that Stephen 311 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: had been killed, and it was beyond any comprehension. He 312 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: and I were thirteen months apart, and he's the oldest 313 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: of twelve siblings, and it was an absolutely horrible shock 314 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: and it reverberated through the whole family and the community. 315 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: He was a pilot, I'm sorry, navigator on the USS 316 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: Enterprise in Vietnam. He was a lieutenant and he was 317 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: decorated and um, he was just a terrific guy. Everybody 318 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: that knew him liked him. There's a big article written 319 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: in the paper by Lewis Grizzard about him and his 320 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: the way he played tennis over at Bitsy Grant. But 321 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: it was, it was, and it is a horrible shock 322 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: and to continue with I mean, just as um mister 323 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: Harrowitz said, I mean, it is a real trauma for 324 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: the family to have to continue this never ending. It 325 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: seems like denial of parole for these two people, you know, 326 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: David and Catherine. Just hearing your voices and talking about this, 327 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: just I feel like I'm right back in there trying 328 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: that case again in front of Judge Eaty. As I recall, 329 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: Judge Eady, just the nicest guy ever, And I would 330 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: turn around and look at Henry Hamilton and he would 331 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: look at me like if he could get away with it, 332 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: he would come right across that council table and choke 333 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: me dead. Of course that certainly didn't stop me. But 334 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: remember that look, Catherine Moore, I remember it till the 335 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: day I die. Well, well, I wasn't allowed then because 336 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: I was a witness, but I remember. I mean, I 337 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: know he's there. They're scary, They're very scary. Renee Rockwell, 338 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: do you remember him at all? I know you remember 339 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: the trial. I remember him, Nancy, But more importantly I 340 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: remember as you figured out that and and this is 341 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: my kroger. Yeah, it's happened right by my croger. Your 342 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: croger passed in front of that crime that that crime 343 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: looks and those those gentlemen and I'm gonna say gentlemen 344 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: because and you're gonna go crazy, but those defendants were, 345 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: We're passing in front of that area, probably casing the 346 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: place out on a work route. And Nancy, what's to 347 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: say that that they didn't pass in front of that 348 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: that home a number of times thinking about who what 349 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: when we're the next victim? And how many unsolved robberies 350 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: there may have been based on on their m O. 351 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: And if they get out, is it going to be 352 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: the same route? It absolutely will, Renee, And that my 353 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: point that night. Yeah, you're right, Katherine, I was just 354 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: about to say that. I recall hearing that um they 355 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: had stopped. They had already done three robbery before they 356 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: got to me, and Stephen, you're absolutely right. And if 357 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: you will recall a careful look in the indictment and 358 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: other indictments from the time they got out of jail 359 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: early on their other string of armed robberies. In just 360 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: three months, they had already committed another string of armed 361 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: robberies culminating in Steven's murder. My point is they got 362 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: out once and they immediately started doing the very same thing. 363 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: Is that Joe Scott Morgan jumping in going a yeah, yeah, yeah, 364 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know when you look at this 365 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: and you know, reflecting back to what Renee was just 366 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: saying about them kind of casing out this area, this 367 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: is I think for them it's their job. Some people 368 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: who have described prison for habitual offenders as their college, 369 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: and you know, they go in and they come out, 370 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: they go back in, and I think at some point 371 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: in time they can ascend to you know, almost a 372 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: professorial position where they're teaching other people in there how 373 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: to do these types of things. And they get out 374 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: and they they view themselves as as skilled. And they 375 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: showed up that This is why I say this. They 376 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: showed up at all of these instances with the ability, 377 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: uh to perpetrate a horrible crime, uh such as you know, 378 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: uh Stephen felt Phil victim to he was shot by 379 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: both of these individuals. I don't think twice. Really did 380 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: you look at the injuries one in the back, yeah, 381 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: one in the back, and you know what a gutless 382 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: thing to do in the first place, she had an 383 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: unarmed man with his fiancee within them, back and running, 384 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: send her, get her to safety, and you know, and 385 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: plus he goes, he goes mono of mino against one 386 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: of these guys. Catherine had reflected on the fact that 387 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: he had attempted a headbutt one. Oh. Yes, Steven turned 388 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: around and took him on even though he was unarmed. Yeah, 389 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: he was not shoying away from this. And they both 390 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: showed up with thirty eight caliber revolvers and uh, you know, 391 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: not to be too graphic here, but at autopsy, I'll 392 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: put it to you this way. They recovered both of 393 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,239 Speaker 1: these rounds that Stephen had been shot with, and they 394 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: were from two separate weapons. And so this goes to 395 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: this bigger idea. You know, we talked about things in 396 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: law and criminal law, like intent and all those sorts 397 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: of things. But you show up with a deadly weapon 398 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: in your hand, and you know the effect of it. 399 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: You wouldn't show up with it if you didn't. And 400 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: they're going to force people into these positions, and you 401 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: go back to this other idea about this hot poker 402 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: and torture and all of these horrible things so yeah, 403 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: I mean, these guys are to blame, But what about 404 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: the prison system that that miserably failed at identifying how 405 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: pathological these two works. I think pathological is a really 406 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: good way to put it, because Catherine, I don't know 407 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: if you remember Renee, you may have driven along with 408 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: me when I was heading out to one of the 409 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: similar transactions, David. Every vict was an abject fear of death. 410 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: They would pistol, whip beat, threaten, assault all the victims. 411 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: And there were many crime stories with Nancy Grace, Patherine Moore. 412 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: What does this do to you to have to relive 413 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: Stevens murder over and over? Well, PTSD is real and 414 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: it triggers it. And of course I've had therapy, there's 415 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: been many years. I have a happy life, but when 416 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: this is brought back to me, I immediately cannot concentrate. 417 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: I don't sleep well, um, I'm you know, I think 418 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: about that. The scenes to pop up. I see Stephen 419 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: clearly knowing what I had and knowing what I lost, 420 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: and it's it's a nightmare that's lived over and over. Nancy, 421 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: this is David. One of the things about Kathy is 422 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: that you know she had to be a witness at 423 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: three of all three of those trials, and she had 424 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: to live relive every aspect of it during those trials. 425 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: See Stephen's bloody clothes, the whole thing. And I mean, 426 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: on top of what you just got through saying, I mean, 427 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: it was not just the one time incident. It goes 428 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: on and on and on, and it is not fair 429 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: to her. Let me just read this if I could, 430 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: and this is from the State Board of Pardons in 431 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: Parole and it says simply, persons on parole remain under 432 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: state supervision and control according to conditions which is violated, 433 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: allow for re imprisonment. Well, I mean they violated it, 434 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: they were put back in prison, and now the Pardons 435 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: and Bold board wants to consider them again. It is 436 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: absolutely absurd and it's injustice to Cathy, well to everybody 437 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: that loved Stephen, because a lot of a lot of people, 438 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of people loved him. He was thought of the earth. 439 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: He was a kind guy, he was funny, he was 440 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: mad about um tennis. He's fierce on the tennis court. 441 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: He um. You know, he's decorated Vietnam veteran hero we 442 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: had was honored because he saved a life he was. 443 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: He was wonderful to all kinds of people. He was 444 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: loved by the whole community that knew him. Kathy h 445 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: with me. Is Katherine Moore, Steven's fiance, a fantastic teacher 446 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: on my dad, Katherine, did you ever remarry No, Nancy, 447 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: I feel kind of bad about that or guilty, but 448 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: I Nancy, nobody was Stephen. Stephen was everything um we 449 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,479 Speaker 1: we had. We had a love of nature in common. 450 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: We had a love of um God's spirituality in common. 451 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: We we we were kind and compassionate, we had that 452 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: in common. We like children, we um we had a 453 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: sense of humor in common. And every single person I 454 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: tried to date, I'd say, Nope, nope, not Stephen, not Stephen, 455 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: not even close. Nope. And I just gave up. I 456 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: just gave up and and thought, I'm I'm happy. I'm 457 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: happy now. I'm I'm very happy being single. I have 458 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: a good life, Nancy. If I could make a comment 459 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: about that, A part of a post traumatic stress is 460 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: avoidance of anything that has to do with the dreaded situation. 461 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: So of course dating and remarrying is going to get 462 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: associated with potential loss and being revictimized. So avoidance. I'm 463 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: only mentioning this because the parole board letting these guys 464 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: out again and again does re traumatize victims. And if 465 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: if we've reframed these perpetrators instead of calling them robbers, 466 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: let's call them serial killers, would they be letting them 467 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: out as easily. Joe Scott Morgan used the term pathological, 468 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: that these guys are like in a college setting, learning 469 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: to reasfend. And so when I first read the article, 470 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: I said, oh, you know two robbers put away for 471 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: forty years, they get out after seven and a half years. 472 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, robbery seven and a half years. I 473 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: started digging deeper. I was like, oh no, this is 474 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 1: not robbery. Robbery was just a pretext for torture. That's 475 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: really what this was all about. So if you refrain 476 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: it is torture and serial killing, these guys should never, never, 477 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: never see the light of day. I mean, think about it, 478 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: Daniel Harrowitz, what Bethany's saying, Daniel. They would pistol, whip 479 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: and beat and for instance, stick the fire poker all 480 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: the way in somebody's ear until it wouldn't go anymore, 481 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: threaten to rape, just destroy the whole home. She's right. 482 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: It wasn't just about getting the wallet. It was about 483 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: torturing people, hurting them like pulling the wings off a fly, 484 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: the joy of torturing. Yeah, Nancy, talking personally. You know 485 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: the person who killed Pamela, study, killing children, study cutting 486 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: organs out of people. He was obsessed with what he 487 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 1: was going to do, and when he finally did it, 488 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: if he had not been caught, and you helped catch him, Nancy, 489 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: with what you did, keeping the story alive, but he 490 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: would have done it again and again. And of course 491 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: at his trial, two school teachers spoke about what a 492 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: nice young man he was and how kind he was. 493 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: Wasn't until his girlfriend testified about his fantasies of torturing 494 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,959 Speaker 1: and killing that the true picture emerged. And I wanted 495 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: to add another point too, in terms of victims rebuilding 496 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: their life. What I did, and I've never shared this before, 497 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: maybe with you privately, Nancy, as I went to the 498 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: house where Pamela was killed. It was still covered in 499 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: blood every day for two months, and I sat there 500 00:36:54,680 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: at night alone for two to three hours, screaming, crying, letting, 501 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: every emotion comes through every single day, just to purge 502 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: myself of every demon that that event had tried to 503 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: place inside of me, because I didn't want it to 504 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: sit and fester. It's so hard for victims. And I 505 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: don't call myself a victim because I'm alive, but for 506 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: families of victims. And I wasn't there, which makes it 507 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: even worse. Being there and seeing it happen to me 508 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: as unimaginable. Well, I think that was good that you 509 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: did that to get it all out, But I was 510 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: still teaching at the time, and I had a job 511 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: to do, and I went in there and I had 512 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: to do my job, and I was in a fog 513 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: sitting there. At one point, and one little boy came 514 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: up to me, very smart little boy, and he asked 515 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: me a question. He needed to help finding something. And 516 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: I looked at him and I thought, this boy doesn't 517 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: know what I'm going through. This boy doesn't know. He's 518 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: a young kid, he's an eight year old boy. He 519 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: deserves a fully functioning teacher. And that kind of snapped 520 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: me out of it at that point. So from that 521 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: point forward, you know, I just go in that classroom 522 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: every single year and close that door and focus on 523 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: those kids, and you are protected and you will, love, Catherine. 524 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: You are reminding me so much of what happened after 525 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: Keith's murder. For me, I became a prosecutor. That's how 526 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: I know you, and how I know David Hines and 527 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: the Hoolhinz family. Laura, it became my dear friend because 528 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: of prosecuting the codefended Henry Hamilton. I shut everything out 529 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: and concentrated on nothing but getting through law school, making 530 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 1: Laura of you getting a job, getting a job until 531 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: I can get with a DA's office and start putting 532 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: bad eyes behind bars and helping victims. And that's all 533 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 1: I cared about for so long, for so long, almost 534 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: my whole life. And guys, we're not commiserating about our 535 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: pain and what violent crime victims go through. We are 536 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: asking for help. And that is very rare that I 537 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: ask anyone for help. But we need your help. The 538 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: Hinds family needs your help. Please contact the Georgia Board 539 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: of Pardon and Parole and stop the release of Michael Fortson. 540 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 1: They are at Victim Services at PAP dot Georgia dot gov. 541 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: Repeat Victim one victim victim RUSS at PAP which stands 542 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: for Pardoning Parole dot Georgia dot gov. Victim Services at 543 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: PAP dot Georgia dot gov, or dial four zero four 544 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: six five one six six six eight repeat four zero 545 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: four six five one six six six eight. Please help 546 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: us stop the release of Michael Fortson. Don't let all 547 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: of the hard work, the pain, and the suffering this 548 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: family has gone through b for not. We wait as 549 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 1: justice Unfoalds Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off, Goodbye Frien