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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome back to the Counterpoints.

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Speaker 4: Later in the show, we're going to be interviewing Senator

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Speaker 4: Rand Paul of Kentucky.

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Speaker 3: Before that, we're.

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Speaker 4: Going to get to some updates on the Israeli war.

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Speaker 4: In guys that we're going to talk about some developments

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Speaker 4: in the West Bank. Settlers have been rampaging abusing Palestinians there,

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Speaker 4: and we're going to talk about a really disturbing new

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Speaker 4: TikTok trend coming out of the coming out of the

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Speaker 4: West Bank, where in which IDF soldiers and now it's

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Speaker 4: really civilians are kind of humiliating Palestinians just for a

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Speaker 4: kind of a TikTok dance.

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Speaker 3: What else we got today, Well.

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Speaker 5: They're elections next week, so We're now into November. Happy

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Speaker 5: November everyone. That means next week Tuesday. There are some

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Speaker 5: big elections coming up. Of course Ohio, we've been covering

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Speaker 5: that for a little bit, but we're going.

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Speaker 3: To abortion and marijuana in Ohio, yep.

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Speaker 5: Both of them on the ballot.

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Speaker 4: At the same time, my doppelganger, Tate Reeves, is facing

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Speaker 4: off against Elvis Presley's cousin down in Mississippi.

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Speaker 3: Do people say you little tight race?

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Speaker 5: Is it just you that says you look like?

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Speaker 3: I wish it was just me.

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Speaker 4: It's not the most flattering thing that anybody's ever said

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Speaker 4: about me.

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Speaker 5: And a Republican of all people, Josh Holly is introducing

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Speaker 5: a bill that would undercut Citizens United. We're going to

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Speaker 5: dive into all of that, but Ryan, we have so

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Speaker 5: many updates to get to. This situation in the Middle

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Speaker 5: East changes on a minute by minute basis. We're always

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Speaker 5: looking at regional what other developments are happening. Yemen, for example,

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Speaker 5: yesterday is one of those examples of how this can

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Speaker 5: become even bigger and broader. So we're going to talk

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Speaker 5: a little bit about that. Let's start though, with the

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Speaker 5: attack on the refugee camp Jibalia from yesterday. We have

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Speaker 5: a first element here you can put on the screen.

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Speaker 5: This is some footage from the bombing of the refugee

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Speaker 5: camp in Jibalia. Fifty confirmed dead so far according to reports,

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Speaker 5: about one hundred and fifty missing. Ryan since we saw this,

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Speaker 5: and if you're watching this, you see people carrying bodies

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Speaker 5: out of the rebel Since this happened yesterday, there was

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Speaker 5: another bombing of the same camp, actually just today before

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Speaker 5: we started taping this.

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Speaker 3: Right right this hour, we're getting news.

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Speaker 4: Yusef moone year, who's been a guest on this program before,

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Speaker 4: actually just a couple of weeks ago, I believe, was

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Speaker 4: reporting that there's been another air strike in this same

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Speaker 4: refugee camp, just within the last couple of hours previous one.

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Speaker 3: UH witnesses said seven or.

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Speaker 4: Eight missiles struck the area, just annihilating entire apartment blocks.

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Speaker 4: That the news strike, according to mune Or, is a

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Speaker 4: similar annihilating, you know, blocks, blocks of apartments, creating massive craters.

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Speaker 4: And what's remarkable is the way that even wolf Blitzer,

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Speaker 4: and we'll talk about wolf Blitzer's background in a second,

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Speaker 4: was appalled at the carnage that he was witnessing.

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Speaker 3: I think we have him on CNN here last night.

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Speaker 6: But even if that Hamas commander was there amidst all

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Speaker 6: those Palestinian refugees who are in that in that Jebali

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Speaker 6: refugee camp, Israel still went ahead and dropped a bomb

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Speaker 6: there attempting to kill this Hamas, this Camas AMAS commander,

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Speaker 6: knowing that a lot of innocent civilians, men, women and

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Speaker 6: children presumably would be killed. Is that what I'm hearing?

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Speaker 7: I know what you're hearing.

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Speaker 8: Well, we again were focused on this commander again who

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Speaker 8: You'll get more data who this man was. They killed many,

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Speaker 8: many Israelis. We're doing everything we can. These are it's

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Speaker 8: a very complicated battle space. There could be infrastructure there,

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Speaker 8: there could be tunnels there, and we're still looking into

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Speaker 8: and we'll give you more data as they are moves ahead.

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Speaker 6: But you know that there are a lot of refugees,

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Speaker 6: a lot of innocent civilians, men, women and children in

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Speaker 6: that refugee camp as well.

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Speaker 7: Right, this is the tragedy of war wolf.

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Speaker 8: I mean we as you know, we've been seeing for

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Speaker 8: days move south. The villains are not involved with please

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Speaker 8: move south.

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Speaker 6: And just trying to get a little more information. You

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Speaker 6: knew there were civilians there, you knew there were refugees,

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Speaker 6: all sorts of refugees, but you decided to still drop

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Speaker 6: a bomb on that refugee camp, attempting to kill the

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Speaker 6: SAMAS commander. By the way, was he killed.

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Speaker 8: I can't confirm you. They'll be more updated. Yes, we

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Speaker 8: know that he was killed.

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Speaker 5: It's like the best journalism I've seen from Wolf Years

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Speaker 5: and Wolf Bliss.

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Speaker 4: And did you notice in there that he said that

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Speaker 4: there might have been tunnels there. Yes, you can't blow

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Speaker 4: up an entire refugee camp filled with people because there

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Speaker 4: might be tunnels. Well the things I mean, clearly they

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Speaker 4: can and they're going to.

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Speaker 5: But if there are tunnels, then say there are tunnels.

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Speaker 5: And if there is, they haven't named still yet.

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Speaker 4: They just didn't know, they seem Abu A Gina who

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Speaker 4: was listed as a battalion commander and was involved in

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Speaker 4: commanding one of the battalions that was involved in a

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Speaker 4: massacre at the kit Sim outside of Gaza. So but

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Speaker 4: not a high a person with direct culpability in the

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Speaker 4: atrocities that were committed on October seventh, but not a

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Speaker 4: high level commander either.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that was a big problem yesterday.

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Speaker 5: I'm glad that they've since named him, but all day yesterday,

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Speaker 5: as you're getting questioned like this and saying we can't

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Speaker 5: name the guy yet, et cetera, et cetera, I think

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Speaker 5: that's a real problem to not be able to say

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Speaker 5: publicly why you did it. And if you're in the

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Speaker 5: tunnel thing, your point actually reminded me of that. And

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Speaker 5: so I mean, again, we've had these conversations for weeks now,

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Speaker 5: and I think generally disagree on some big points. I

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Speaker 5: do think, and we're going to get into actually another

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Speaker 5: clip of wolf Blitzer. I think this is a really

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Speaker 5: big problem going forward, obviously for public facing, forward facing

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Speaker 5: Israeli officials who are going to go on the media

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Speaker 5: and have this conversation.

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Speaker 4: Right, And wolf Blitzer in the nineteen seventies was wrote

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Speaker 4: and edited an APAC newsletter. He spent the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 4: as a correspondent in Tel Aviv. Right before he became

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Speaker 4: a household name in the Gulf War, he was Washing

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Speaker 4: based correspondent for an Israeli newspaper. This is somebody who

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Speaker 4: literally worked for APAC who is saying, let me get

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Speaker 4: this right. You knew that there were hundreds thousands of

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Speaker 4: civilians in this area and you dropped these high explosive bombs. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: right there, he said, this is a truegy of war,

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Speaker 4: is what the idea of spokesperson.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's also a war crime.

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Speaker 5: Well, and that's okay, So we're going to play the

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Speaker 5: next clip. But we talked about this in reference to

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Speaker 5: John Kirby last week. John Kirby gave that answer and

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Speaker 5: we'll talk a little bit more about it in the

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Speaker 5: next segment where he said war is ugly and I

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Speaker 5: think he used the word messy, boy and bloody right right, Well, yes,

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Speaker 5: and I think I said something like this is at

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Speaker 5: least it's honest, and I mean that's the problem with

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Speaker 5: In this clip in particular, at one point he says, well,

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Speaker 5: it's the tragedy of war, and in the other points

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Speaker 5: he sort of dodges and jumps around. It is true

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Speaker 5: that Israel did tell people to evacuate. It's doing the

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Speaker 5: same thing right now with hospitals and Gaza. Palestinians are

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Speaker 5: saying we don't have anywhere to go because Israel has

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Speaker 5: continued to bomb the South, and so you leave your house,

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Speaker 5: you go to these According to the Associated Press. Some

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Speaker 5: of these shelters are triple overflow. They're completely packed, yes, obviously.

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Speaker 5: And so you just have this gospel situation where Israel

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Speaker 5: has an enemy that says it should be wiped off

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Speaker 5: the face of the earth and just massacred civilians. But

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Speaker 5: that enemy also lives in a densely populated, tiny, crowded territory,

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Speaker 5: is you know, careful about how it conducts its operations

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Speaker 5: in civilian areas. So it's you know, it's a horrible situation.

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Speaker 5: You have to be able to answer questions like that

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Speaker 5: from wulf Blitzer.

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Speaker 4: Right, and the US saying from the mouth of the

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Speaker 4: President and then from the mouth of Kirby that civilian

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Speaker 4: casualties are the price of war. They're unfortunate, but it's

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Speaker 4: the price of war. It's it's just this is what

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Speaker 4: happens in war is a green light to Israel to

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Speaker 4: do what it's doing. And so as the United States

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Speaker 4: expresses concerns about the loss of civilian life and this strike,

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Speaker 4: remember that they are the ones that ahead of time

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Speaker 4: gave it the green light by creating.

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Speaker 3: The space to allow for it to happen.

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Speaker 4: Somebody pointed out that in two thousand and two or

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Speaker 4: maybe two thousand and three, right after, very soon after

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Speaker 4: nine to eleven, Israel struck the leader of Hamas and

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Speaker 4: a founder of Hamas and killed him along with seven civilians.

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Speaker 3: George W. Bush put out one.

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Speaker 4: Of the sternest kind of statements condemning the action, condemning

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Speaker 4: the loss of civilian life, saying that there's no justification

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Speaker 4: even if you're attacking the commander, like the commander, not

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Speaker 4: a battalion commander, but like the head of Hamas, killing

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Speaker 4: seven civilians along the way is an unacceptable price to pay.

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Speaker 3: That's George W.

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Speaker 4: Bush, who later would have more blood on his hands

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Speaker 4: than probably any president in one hundred years.

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Speaker 3: And for him to say that this is too much,

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Speaker 3: and now.

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Speaker 4: To get very little reaction from the White House to

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Speaker 4: who knows how many civilian casualties we're going to have?

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Speaker 4: And it's and it's almost untoward to be kind of

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Speaker 4: quibbling over the numbers when you look at those those images.

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Speaker 4: So here's Anthony blinkoln Scretary of State, testifying before Congress

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Speaker 4: and getting interrupted by media Benjamin of Code Pink not

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Speaker 4: shrinking back, not in the face of Russia's aggression against Ukraine,

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Speaker 4: not in the face of an intensifying.

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Speaker 7: Strategic competition in the Indo Pacific and around the world.

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Speaker 5: If the witness will suspend, and I asked that everyone

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Speaker 5: again respect this hearing, we will suspend and till the

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Speaker 5: room misitary.

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Speaker 4: So we still don't have any sense of other than

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Speaker 4: the plan that was floated by the Military Intelligence Bureau

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Speaker 4: to just completely clear out Kaza of where this is going, right,

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Speaker 4: Like what okay? They they killed this battalion commander along

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Speaker 4: with countless other civilians. They're going to try to kill

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Speaker 4: other hamas battalion commanders. They say they're going to dismantle

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Speaker 4: the organization whatever whatever that actually means, because the organization,

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Speaker 4: you know, broadly speaking, has some significant level of support

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Speaker 4: from the Palestinian people, which means that whatever organization you dismantle,

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Speaker 4: the one that has put in its place will be

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Speaker 4: will have a similar politics or else they won't win

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Speaker 4: the support of the people. As you'll hear a lot

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Speaker 4: of Palestinians say, we've the party that advocates negotiations with

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Speaker 4: Israel Is out of political favor because they've been negotiating

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Speaker 4: for thirty to forty years, and over those thirty to

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Speaker 4: forty years, they've got less, the economy has gotten worse,

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Speaker 4: they can their travel restrictions have gotten tighter, they're down

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Speaker 4: at electricity four hours a day before the strike. There's

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Speaker 4: no hope, no sense of dignity connected to those negotiations.

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Speaker 4: So you're gonna wind up with somebody who says, well,

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Speaker 4: we're going to then confront Israel likely So that so

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Speaker 4: logically that seems to leave the idea of the intelligence

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Speaker 4: ministry plan of we're going to clear out the North,

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Speaker 4: occupy it, and then we're going to clear out the

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Speaker 4: sale South and push the push the Palestinians into sin

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Speaker 4: and Sinni peninsula. Is that your sense of what's your

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Speaker 4: sense of what the actual plan is here?

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Speaker 5: I have no sense of what the actual plan is.

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Speaker 5: And that's not surprising at all because there was no

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Speaker 5: sense of what the actual plan is in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Speaker 5: There's no sense of what the actual plan is short

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Speaker 5: of quote whatever it takes in Ukraine to the tune

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Speaker 5: of billions and billions of dollars. But perhaps you know

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Speaker 5: close to one hundred thousand casualties on both sides, if

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Speaker 5: not more, there is no plan, And I do like

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Speaker 5: again this is not in we have to have room

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Speaker 5: for Israel to disincentivize the conduct of Hamas. Israel cannot

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Speaker 5: say we will not retaliate because that gives Hama green

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Speaker 5: light to massacre more civilians, so that that can't be

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Speaker 5: the case either. But I just don't have confidence in

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Speaker 5: Western war strategy anymore. And I don't think I also

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Speaker 5: think we're gonna talk about this with Lindsay Grammon a

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Speaker 5: little bit. I think when you listen to IDF commanders,

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Speaker 5: it's really hard to understand or to give them the

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Speaker 5: benefit of the doubt and the fog of war mentality,

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Speaker 5: because again, like some things are up in the air,

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Speaker 5: but I don't see anything concrete. I don't see what

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Speaker 5: are you going to do about. You know, let's say

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Speaker 5: hundreds of civilians die hamas Is. You know, even though

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Speaker 5: their leaders are in cutter, you know, you get the

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Speaker 5: battalion commander, guys, they're they're out of the way. Does

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Speaker 5: that make the situation better or worse? I mean, at

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Speaker 5: what point does that make the situation better and worse?

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Speaker 5: And how does that make the situation better or worse?

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Speaker 5: And then what do you do afterwards? And actually the

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Speaker 5: news reports into Kate. That's still being discussed as opposed

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Speaker 5: to what We've had this terrorist threat living next to

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Speaker 5: us for years. What is the if they mask her

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Speaker 5: civilians and a ground war is necessitated, what is the

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Speaker 5: next step. There's just I'm not saying it's easy, but

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Speaker 5: I am saying that you have to have that if

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Speaker 5: you are going to wage war on the scale.

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Speaker 4: It's also not clear strategically what Hamas was going for,

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Speaker 4: like where they saw this ending, and that kind of

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Speaker 4: sets up our next conversation here. One of the things

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Speaker 4: that Hamas leadership suggested in the wake of their October

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Speaker 4: seventh masacer was that they were hoping for a broader

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Speaker 4: conflagration that they were. You had to kind of read

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Speaker 4: between the lines and some of their interviews. They were saying,

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Speaker 4: you know, other actors can choose what they would want

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Speaker 4: to do, but I hope that they would kind of

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Speaker 4: live up to their broad commitments to Iran and others

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Speaker 4: saying that they're Iran has claimed that it's you know,

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Speaker 4: implacably hostile to Israel, so stand up, you know, defend

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Speaker 4: us like.

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Speaker 3: They they didn't.

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Speaker 4: They didn't go all the way to saying that, but

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Speaker 4: it was very clear that that's what they meant. So

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Speaker 4: if we can put up this element, this is the

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Speaker 4: uh Yemen's houthy government has now declared war on Israel,

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Speaker 4: right Uh, and uh you know has this comes after

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Speaker 4: they launched a couple of kind of drones and missiles,

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Speaker 4: you know, toward Israel, but uh saying that they're going

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Speaker 4: to be kind of ramping up the Uh, you know,

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Speaker 4: they're going to be kind of ramping up.

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Speaker 3: That that level of assault.

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Speaker 4: What that what that exactly means, uh, is is unclear

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Speaker 4: given kind of Israeli defenses iron Dome Uh.

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Speaker 3: And also US.

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Speaker 4: You know, the US said that they intercepted some of

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Speaker 4: those hoothy missiles previously. So at the same time, you

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Speaker 4: have Egypt, if we can put this up here, Egypt

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Speaker 4: has moved tanks to the Rafa border. And this is

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Speaker 4: not I don't think precipitating any type of invasion or

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Speaker 4: anything like that. But I think this is a response

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Speaker 4: to the public reports both from the Netnyaho connected think tank,

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Speaker 4: which produced a paper basically calling for the ethnic cleansing

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Speaker 4: of Gaza, plus the Israeli Intelligence Ministry, which is which,

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Speaker 4: as everybody points out, as a small kind of just

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Speaker 4: policy organization yet run by a you know, Lakud politician

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Speaker 4: with links to Netyah who they also put out a

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Speaker 4: paper gaming out what it would look like to ethnically

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Speaker 4: cleanse Gaza and part of that plan, essential to that

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Speaker 4: plan is pushing people through the Rafa border, closing into

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Speaker 4: Signi Peninsula. So I think Egypt sending troops to that,

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Speaker 4: sending tanks there is to say no, like you're not

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Speaker 4: doing this, We're not going to allow this to happen.

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Speaker 5: And back to the Huthis, I mean, so their slogan

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Speaker 5: this Reuter's was I was reminded of this in a

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Speaker 5: Reuters article yesterday is death to America, death to Israel,

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Speaker 5: cursed the Jews, and victory to Islam.

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Speaker 3: And this is the Houthis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, some of the hoothy rallies are just like wildly

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Speaker 4: anti Semitic, like just that kind of rhetoric, right, like

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Speaker 4: whereas Hamas has actually taken out of its charter. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: this is not Hamas apologia, but like their charter used

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Speaker 4: to say, you know, kill all the Jews.

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Speaker 3: They literally like now they say it's.

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Speaker 4: It's actually we're just against Israel, and it's Israel that

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Speaker 4: links Judaism with Zionism, and when.

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Speaker 5: We don't right, they like control f't for jew like

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Speaker 5: they replaced Jews with Israel in their charter, like in

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Speaker 5: twenty seventeen. It was like nineteen eighty seven, the original

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Speaker 5: charter was blatantly anti Semitic, and then.

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Speaker 3: The Houthis are still rocking with the original.

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Speaker 5: Yeah there's yeah, exactly, but that's I mean, so again,

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Speaker 5: I don't think it doesn't mean much as of right now.

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Speaker 5: What it does mean, though, is that there's more potential.

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Speaker 5: It's another sort of it's not a huge point of escalation,

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Speaker 5: but it does show that as these things ratchet up,

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Speaker 5: as you have one escalation on top of another and

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Speaker 5: they start to snowball, other people get dragged into this.

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Speaker 5: The Saudis can get dragged into this really easily in

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Speaker 5: a way that I mean, it's just a total powder

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Speaker 5: keg when these things start to the domino start to fall,

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Speaker 5: and you know, I don't think this is the most

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Speaker 5: concerning thing that's happened, but it's pretty concerning. I don't

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Speaker 5: want to be numb.

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Speaker 4: To it, right, And it comes after Airdawan's like hinting

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Speaker 4: at a rally that he could send ships down there

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Speaker 4: that he could intervene militarily, because I think a lot

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Speaker 4: of people around the world are watching this and saying

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Speaker 4: this can't happen right, like say, largely defenseless civilian population

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Speaker 4: getting just pounded around the clock, and it feels like

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Speaker 4: you should be able to call someone and say, look,

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Speaker 4: what's happening this, This is happening in broad daylight. Somebody

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Speaker 4: stopped this, And then there comes the realization that there's

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Speaker 4: nobody to stop this, and so then you have pressure

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Speaker 4: from populations in Turkey and Egypt elsewhere to say, do something,

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Speaker 4: stop this. They don't want to get involved in a

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Speaker 4: regional war either, But most wars start by people, are

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Speaker 4: started by people, and are involved people who never wanted

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Speaker 4: to be involved in war in the first place.

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Speaker 5: And I do think there are some I mean the

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Speaker 5: sort of access of resistance. I do think there are

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Speaker 5: some people and some leaders who would gladly get into

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Speaker 5: a regional war. I mean Hamas is a good example

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Speaker 5: of that. That sort of question. Just to go back

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Speaker 5: to your question about what was their strategy, what is

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Speaker 5: their kind of end goal of the massacre that they

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Speaker 5: plotted apparently for some two years I think obviously they

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Speaker 5: had to know where that would go immediately, where that

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Speaker 5: would I think everybody knew immediately where that would go.

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Speaker 5: As soon as it happened, everybody understood that we were

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Speaker 5: going to an all likelihood to see a ground invasion.

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Speaker 5: We're going to see mass civilian casualties, and that's the problem.

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Speaker 5: On the other hand, with a ceasefire, there's a really

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Speaker 5: legitimate question about what that means for the safety of

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Speaker 5: people in Israel, what that means for the future of Israel.

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Speaker 5: But it's again like I think the media conversation about

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Speaker 5: this is wildly unhelpful, and it allows and it enables

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Speaker 5: the IDF representatives and Lindsay Graham, who we keep teasing

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Speaker 5: we are going to get to him, because he was

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Speaker 5: on CNN last night to make a lot of sort

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Speaker 5: of facile statements, and you know, it's useless, Like what

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Speaker 5: am I supposed to argue against what Lindsay Graham's crazy

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Speaker 5: war mongering. I don't even think it represents the position

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Speaker 5: of the Pentagon. I think he wants it to represent

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Speaker 5: the position of the Pentagon and the White House, which

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Speaker 5: is why he's out there wish casting.

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Speaker 3: Last week in a low moment for this administration.

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Speaker 4: President Biden was asked about the contradiction between net and

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Speaker 4: Yaho's claim that he was doing all he could to

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Speaker 4: minimize civilian casualties and the fact that on the ground

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Speaker 4: more than six thousand people had been killed in just

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Speaker 4: the first few weeks.

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Speaker 3: He responded like this.

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Speaker 5: Do these numbers say to you that he is ignoring

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Speaker 5: that message?

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Speaker 9: What did they say to me?

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Speaker 6: Is I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling

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Speaker 6: the truth about how many people are killed.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure innocence had been killed, and that's the price

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Speaker 5: of quagy to war.

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Speaker 4: News outlets quickly noted that the numbers reported by Hamas

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Speaker 4: in previous wars had been broadly found to be accurate

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Speaker 4: by human rights and relief organizations, the United Nations, and

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Speaker 4: even Israel itself, truly showing how absurd Biden's claim was.

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Speaker 4: The State Department itself routinely relies on the Gaza Ministry

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Speaker 4: of Health, despite his connections to Hamas, which rules over Gaza.

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Speaker 4: Yet still, defenders of Israel's assault have suggested that the

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Speaker 4: list released by the Ministry of Health is meaningless, that

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Speaker 4: it might just be a collection of random names.

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Speaker 3: Now it turns out that.

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Speaker 4: A few weeks ago, I reached out to a source

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Speaker 4: s iide met doing previous reporting. His name's Marum Aldada

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Speaker 4: and he was born and raised in Godza but now

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Speaker 4: lives in Orlando. Still he's been in regular contact with

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Speaker 4: his family over there. Reached out to ask how his

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Speaker 4: family was doing, and he said that thirty people on

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Speaker 4: his mother's side and seven on his father's had been

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Speaker 4: killed so far. A week later I had him on

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Speaker 4: my Intercept podcast Deconstructed to talk about what life was

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Speaker 4: like for his family in Gaza amid the bombing. But

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Speaker 4: because Mariam had told me about the killings before the

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Speaker 4: Ministry of Health's list came out, that meant we could

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Speaker 4: compare the two lists, and if his relatives were on it,

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Speaker 4: it would mean that the list is not just filled

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Speaker 4: with random names, but that each name does represent the

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Speaker 4: tragic snuffing out of a life. So the list was

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Speaker 4: first released in Arabic and includes the ID numbers given

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Speaker 4: out by Israel to Palestinians, as well as their age

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Speaker 4: and gender. My colleague Mariamsala, who speaks Arabic, helped me

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Speaker 4: go through it, and the ministry later released an English

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Speaker 4: language version as well. We found forty three of his

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Speaker 4: forty six relatives on the ministry's list. The youngest Tahani

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Speaker 4: was just a baby, not yet a year old, and

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Speaker 4: the oldest was a seventy.

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Speaker 3: One year old grandmother.

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Speaker 4: What has struck people the most about the denial of

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Speaker 4: the slaughter and the hand waving it away is just

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Speaker 4: the price of war. Is how different it was when

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Speaker 4: the White House was talking about civilian casualties in Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: Here's now this news with a quick comparison.

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Speaker 10: Being honest about the fact that there have been civilian

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Speaker 10: casualties and that there likely will be more is being

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Speaker 10: honest because that's.

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Speaker 7: What war is. It's brutal, it's ugly, it's messy.

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Speaker 10: I've said that before. President also said that yesterday doesn't mean.

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Speaker 1: We have to like it.

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Speaker 10: It's hard to look at what he's doing in Ukraine,

438
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 10: what his forces are doing in Ukraine, and think that

439
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 10: any ethical, moral individual could justify that.

440
00:23:48,640 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: It's difficult to look at the sorry, it's difficult to look.

441
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 10: At some of the images and imagine that any well thinking, serious,

442
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 10: mature leader would do that.

443
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 4: Since the start of the war in Ukraine, by the way,

444
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 4: there have been just under ten thousand civilian casualties in Gaza.

445
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 4: Already more than three thousand children have been killed. The

446
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 4: Health Ministry's new death toll has climbed above eight thousand.

447
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 4: Hassan al Tayeb noted on Twitter that according to Save

448
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 4: the Children, the number of children killed in Gaza over

449
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 4: the last three weeks has surpassed a number of children

450
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 4: killed in wars around the world over the past three

451
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,959
Speaker 4: years combined.

452
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: And so now that we.

453
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 4: Know that the Ministry of Health lists that is being

454
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 4: put out in Gaza does have the names of real

455
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 4: people who who have actually died, you know, it kind

456
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 4: of I think puts the White House in a difficul

457
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 4: whole position because.

458
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 3: The attempt to say that, ah, well, this is.

459
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 4: Just coming from Hamas, we can't really believe this is

460
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 4: belied by that fact that we now there are real,

461
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 4: real people on that list, real people who let real

462
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 4: lives that were ended in the last couple of weeks.

463
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 4: Combined with the images that we're seeing, and you you

464
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 4: see John Kirby talk about how hard it is to

465
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 4: look at the images of civilians killed in Ukraine, that's

466
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 4: equally true in Gaza. And so I wonder if you're

467
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 4: starting to see any shift.

468
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 11: You had.

469
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 4: John Kirby do this like weird West Wing video yesterday.

470
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 4: Did you see this, He's like he's like walk, he's

471
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 4: like doing a walk and talk and he's talking about

472
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 4: how there's a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and and here

473
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 4: here are all the things that the United States is

474
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 4: doing to alleviate the humanitarian crisis, which seemed at least

475
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 4: to suggest that there was some awareness that the world

476
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: was turning on them on this. It's it's remarkable. Israel

477
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 4: has taken global sympathy and torched it in the faster

478
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 4: than anybody I've ever seen. Like the entire world was

479
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 4: united behind Israel on October seventh, after the atrocity is

480
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 4: carried out by Hamas, and the response has just obliterated

481
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 4: that empathy and sympathy.

482
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 5: And I think some of that was inevitable. Inevitable because

483
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 5: I do think that there are some activists and particular

484
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 5: lawmakers who had no room for almost immediately we're calling

485
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 5: for a ceasefire and calling for Israel not to retaliate.

486
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 5: And that's a ridiculous position. But even so, it's a

487
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 5: ridiculous position that you know, we have no limit on

488
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 5: civilian casualties, that the whatever it takes position in Ukraine

489
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 5: like these are also ridiculous positions, and.

490
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: So we have gram on that.

491
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, well I think we have something else before that,

492
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 5: but yeah, it's it's that's a position that Lindsay Graham

493
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 5: has taken. We'll get to that in just a second.

494
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 5: We have actually right here, speaking of support, we can

495
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 5: put the next element up on the screen. This is

496
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 5: from time Biden's Goza stance spurs stunning drop in Arab

497
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 5: American support. I'm just going to read a little bit

498
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 5: from it here. The first national poll of Arab Americans

499
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 5: since the war in Goza began shows how deep that

500
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 5: sense of betrayal among Arab Americans goes, with only seventeen

501
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 5: percent of Arab American voters saying they will vote for

502
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: Biden in twenty twenty four, a staggering drop from fifty

503
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 5: nine percent in twenty twenty. So in twenty twenty fifty

504
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 5: nine percent of Arab American voters say they're going to

505
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 5: vote for Biden. Now that number is seventeen percent. So

506
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 5: James Zogby, who is the founder and the president of

507
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 5: the Arab American Institute, says, quote This is the most

508
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 5: dramatic shift over the shortest period of time I've ever seen.

509
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 5: This is a really interesting point from time. The pole

510
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 5: results are likely to increase concerns among Democrats about Biden's

511
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 5: standing with Arab Americans heading into twenty twenty four, particularly

512
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 5: in Mischi. We're roughly two hundred and seventy seven thousand

513
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 5: Arab Americans call home and Biden won in twenty twenty

514
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 5: by a margin of one hundred and fifty five thousand votes.

515
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 5: That's a huge blow to his ability to win Michigan,

516
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 5: that's for sure.

517
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 4: There's an interesting primary unfolding in Houston, Texas. This Democratic

518
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 4: challenger named Pervez Aguan, who actually wrote about a couple

519
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 4: months ago maybe back at the Intercept, is challenging kind

520
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 4: of a backbench Democrat Sturdy apac ally named Lizzie Fletcher.

521
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 4: That primary I think is not until March, so we

522
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 4: won't we won't get a look at how that's unfolding

523
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: till then.

524
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: But he is running his campaign.

525
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 4: Just head on against Fletcher over Fletcher's support for Israel's

526
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 4: war effort. Fletcher's unconditional support for Israel's war effort. And

527
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: you know, if he is able to kind of campaign

528
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 4: on that. He would be the basically the first candidate

529
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 4: I think ever to Auston incumbent for being too unconditionally

530
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: supportive of Israel.

531
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: That has never happened before.

532
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 4: And if that happens, you know, you still have nine

533
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 4: months between that and the election.

534
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 3: Now.

535
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 4: I don't think we should be making war and peace

536
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 4: decisions based on polling and focused groups, because this is

537
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 4: these are questions of morality and good and evil. On

538
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 4: the other hand, that is an extraordinary swing away away

539
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 4: from Biden, and it also puts voters, our voters in particular,

540
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 4: or anybody who is sympathetic to Palestinian dignity in such

541
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 4: a difficult position. Because you just had the Trump's ambassador

542
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 4: to Israel. I think he was suggesting that anybody who's

543
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 4: a foreign exchange student and is a quote quote unquote

544
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 4: Hama supporter, he doesn't really mean Jama supporter. He means

545
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 4: anybody who is kind of critical of Israel's war.

546
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: And Gaza should be deported.

547
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 4: And you've started to that from elements of the right

548
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 4: that if you're here on a visa and we don't

549
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 4: like your political views around the Israel Palestine question, you're

550
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 4: out of here, and you're so people are faced with

551
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 4: the choice of sitting election out or actively working against

552
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 4: Biden and helping to elect someone who's then going to

553
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 4: try to deport foreign exchange students calling them supporters of

554
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 4: from US, or voting for Biden, who is actively overseeing

555
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: this just ongoing war crime.

556
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, and without getting too much into the campus stuff,

557
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 5: you know, if you look at the Students for Justice

558
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 5: and Palestine toolkit, it does concern me if there are

559
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 5: people who are on visa's here and we're sharing the

560
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 5: paraglider me in paraglider template that was in the Students

561
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 5: for Justice and Palestine toolkit. Like I actually went and

562
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 5: looked at toolkit and I was like, holy spoke, this

563
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 5: is some wild stuff. Not entirely unsurprising. But if there's

564
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 5: somebody on a foreign visa here who's like, yay terrorism,

565
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 5: which is what the paragliders engaged in, and that's not

566
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 5: representative of Palestine, but it is Hamas, that's yeah, I

567
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 5: mean I would have an issue with that. But I

568
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 5: think the broader point about Arab Americans looking at the

569
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 5: Biden administration is completely a serious one for Democrats and

570
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 5: it's also I mean, in some respects Republicans had made

571
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 5: inroads with the Arab Americans, especially in Michigan actually in

572
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 5: the DC area on some of these education issues. That

573
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 5: is not going to be a durable coalition, that's for

574
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 5: sure going forward. Now, we do have the Lindsey Graham

575
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 5: to a clip that we've been teasing because it's I

576
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 5: think actually very useful. This is Lindsay Graham on Abby

577
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 5: Phillips Show on CNN Tuesday night.

578
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 12: Is there a threshold for you? And do you think

579
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 12: there should be one for the United States government? And

580
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 12: which the US would say, let's hold off for a

581
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 12: second in terms of civilian catchup? Is there a point

582
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 12: in which you would start to question.

583
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 9: A lot if somebody asked us after World War Two?

584
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 9: Is there a limit what you would do to make

585
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 9: sure that Japan and Germany don't conquer the world? Is

586
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 9: there any limit what Israel should do to the people

587
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 9: who are trying to slaughter the Jews. The answer is no,

588
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 9: there is no limit.

589
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: But here's what you need to do. Be smart.

590
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 9: Let's try to limit Savilian casualties the best we can.

591
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 9: Let's put humanitarian aid in areas that protect Dennison.

592
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 3: I'm all for that, but this.

593
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 9: Idea that Israel has to apologize for attacking Hamas, who's

594
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 9: embedded with their own population, needs to stop. The goal

595
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 9: is to destroy Hamas. Hamas is creating these casualties, not Israel.

596
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 5: So I'm supposed to trust Lindsay Graham, who just you know,

597
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 5: was a huge backer of the wars in Iraq and

598
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 5: Afghanistan and of drone strikes to limit civilian casualties.

599
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 3: I don't, especially when you're saying he basically doesn't care.

600
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 5: Well, and that's there's a really easy answer to that question,

601
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 5: by the way, which is I cannot answer it. I

602
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 5: cannot tell you because that's fodder for enemies. Benhapiro, who

603
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 5: I'm sure a lot of our viewers don't like, I think,

604
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 5: actually made a really legitimate point here when he said,

605
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 5: if you answer the question, you allow Hamas to hit

606
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 5: that number of civilian casualties and then pressure the West

607
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 5: to just feel like, Okay, we're done, We're totally backing

608
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 5: out of this. So just don't answer the question. You

609
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 5: don't have to answer the question. You can actually explain

610
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 5: that if that's really what your concern is. But then again,

611
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 5: that's asking us or ascribing to Lindsay Graham the sense

612
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 5: of concern about it that I'm genuinely unclear on whether

613
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 5: that actually exists.

614
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 4: But I think the question would not be asked if

615
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 4: there was there was a sense that there was genuine

616
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 4: concern about civilian casualty and there was an actual attempt

617
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 4: being made. It's only when you have people start to say, look,

618
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 4: it's just a price of doing business.

619
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 3: It's sad, but we just have to do it.

620
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 4: Then that's when you say, okay, well what's the price,

621
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 4: Like you're just saying it's a price.

622
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 3: What's the price?

623
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: And if the posture were no civilian casualies are okay,

624
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 4: we're going to do everything we can to minimize them,

625
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 4: and we're going to and we're going to be, you know,

626
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 4: critical of Hamosfort's hiding behind civilians, but we're going to

627
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: be the civilized ones.

628
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 3: And so okay, we're going to say that they have

629
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 3: a human shield.

630
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: We're not going to shoot at them to say that, well,

631
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 4: they have a human shield. Therefore, unfortunately we had to

632
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 4: shoot and kill the innocent civilian. Right does not make

633
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 4: you the civilized one in that exchange, Kirby was actually

634
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: asked about this from a Palestinian reporter in the White

635
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 4: House Guard basically the same question.

636
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 3: Interesting back and forth.

637
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 11: Let's roll that thousands of Palestinian civilians have fallen so far,

638
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 11: including one hundred and sixty of my own relatives, and

639
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 11: I'm just wondering how many Palestinian civilians need to be

640
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 11: killed before the United States called for a ceasefire.

641
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 10: First of all, my condolences to you and your family.

642
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 7: Are you in touch with some well that.

643
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 11: There's as much as I can not as much as

644
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 11: you'd like to be.

645
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 10: Yeah, but I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm very

646
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 10: sorry to hear that, And so I can see this

647
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 10: is obviously personal for you. I can tell you it's

648
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 10: personal for the President too. We don't want to see

649
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 10: anymore civilian casualties. So in terms of the ceasefire, our

650
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 10: concern with that is that HAMAS benefits to the tune

651
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 10: of being able to refit, renew themselves, plan and execute

652
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 10: additional attacks. And as I said yesterday, right now is

653
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 10: not the time for a general ceasefire.

654
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 7: It is, however, the.

655
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 10: Time to consider pauses in the fighting long enough so

656
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 10: that folks like your relatives and family members can get

657
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 10: this incredibly needed humanitarian assistance and perhaps a way to

658
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 10: get out if they want to get out. So we're

659
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 10: supporting that and we'll see what we can do.

660
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 4: Do you notice what he said, well, humanitarian pauses from

661
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: time to time, Like that's kind of an assumption that

662
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: this is going to go on for a very long time.

663
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 4: I was kind of chilling and distarving to hear. You

664
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 4: saw him raise his hand right afterwards that His next

665
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: question was also a good one. He asked about whether

666
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 4: or not the United States would guarantee that if the

667
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 4: civilians were pushed out of Gaza, that they'd be allowed

668
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 4: the right of return, because a lot of Palestinian civilians

669
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 4: were guaranteed that right in both in nineteen forty eight,

670
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty seven, ninety seventy three, and it never came

671
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 4: to pass. And a lot of people in Gaza can

672
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 4: see their old farms and old land from behind the fence,

673
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 4: and so a lot of them say, we're not going

674
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 4: to the desert because we're not going to be able

675
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: to come back. And Kirby's response was, our policy is

676
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 4: not to have some sort of permanent settlement outside of

677
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 4: Gaza for the people who call that home, we want

678
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 4: them to be able to go back home and do

679
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 4: so safely and effectively. We are not calling for them

680
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 4: their permanent refuge from the country.

681
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 3: But again, it's good to have that on the record.

682
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: But if you try to kind.

683
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: Of show this clip at the border when you're trying

684
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: to get back in, I'm not sure it's going to work.

685
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 5: No, And that's exactly what we were just talking about. Okay,

686
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 5: So what is your plan you're evacuating if we already

687
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 5: have what some one point four million I think is

688
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 5: the latest report I saw displaced Gazans that have have

689
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 5: gone south to the South of gazas Israel in the

690
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 5: United States have said as the plan, and then to

691
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 5: move people into Egypt as it's possible, et cetera, et cetera. Okay,

692
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 5: So what is the plan to bring people back in

693
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 5: a way that makes Israel feel as though, and reasonably

694
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 5: they have concerns it can exist safely without another October

695
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 5: seventh happening right away or in the near future. How

696
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 5: do you do that and how do you tell people

697
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 5: to leave their homes and the land that they're clinging

698
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 5: to and that they believe in and then you know,

699
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: say yeah, you're going to come back. And this is

700
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 5: also going to please the other stakeholder who's prosecuting this war.

701
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 5: We have basically just John Kirby saying we want to

702
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 5: do it. That is the extent of what we know

703
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 5: about this plan from both Israel and the United States,

704
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 5: is that we know that we want to do it.

705
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 5: Great step, How are you going to do it? Because

706
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 5: it's an impossible it's a feat, it's a feed, and

707
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 5: there's just no clear sign. And again this is also

708
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 5: what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. We had really nebulous

709
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 5: goals and we had a you know, adjust and well

710
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 5: I shouldn't say that we had I definitely shouldn't say that,

711
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 5: but we had so after nine to eleven, obviously we

712
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 5: had reason to go after al Qaeda, so that pretense

713
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 5: had that sort of sheen of a just cause, and

714
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 5: what happened was a disaster, just a let's let's use

715
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 5: the word quagmire. It was a quagmire because we had

716
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 5: nebulous plans for what we would do in the power vacuum,

717
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 5: that continue, what we would do with civilians, and as

718
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 5: as much as I understand, and you support Israel's rights

719
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 5: to retaliate. I know we disagree on that point, and

720
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 5: you know, believe that Israel faces an existential threat. I

721
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 5: don't trust our government. I don't trust Western governments to

722
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 5: prosecute this ward justly.

723
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 4: Moving to the West Bank, and there's a related point

724
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 4: to be made there. In that Ministry of Intelligence Intelligence

725
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 4: Ministry document that was leaked the other day, there was

726
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 4: a point a piece that didn't get talked about much,

727
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: but it proposed, you know, one of the one of

728
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 4: the proposals was a complete cleansing of of Gaza, pushing

729
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: everyone into the Sinai desert. Another of the proposals in

730
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 4: there was which they rejected, but said, here's here's an

731
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 4: idea that you could consider, was to have the Palestinian Authority,

732
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 4: which kind of which operates in the West Bank, also

733
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 4: run Gaza. And it said that is not desirable for

734
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: Israel because the status quo of Hamas in Gaza and

735
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 4: the PA in the West Bank keeps Palestinians divided, which

736
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: is then an obstacle to Palestindian statehood.

737
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 3: And so it's that it's described.

738
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 4: The obstacle is described in the document as a good

739
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 4: thing for Israel, like they want the division, and that

740
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 4: is reflective of this long time kind of net Yahoo

741
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 4: policy that Hamas is actually good for the interests of

742
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 4: Israel because the Hamas is not a negotiating partner that

743
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 4: can be taken seriously.

744
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 5: Just credits the Palestinian cause.

745
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 4: And you know, implicitly in that there's there's going to

746
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 4: be some Israeli civilian casualties from Hamas rockets and Hamas

747
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 4: border raids. But that's that's the price of making sure

748
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: that there's no Palestindian statehood. October seventh put a price

749
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 4: tag on that far beyond you know what what yah

750
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 4: who could have expected to see a document post October

751
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 4: seventh still say that the status quo of a divided

752
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: Gaza and West Bank is preferable because it prevents Palestinian

753
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 4: statehood is just chilling because it does it desecrates the

754
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 4: memory of all of the Israeli civilians who were killed

755
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 4: as a consequence of that strategy, and so that also

756
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 4: raises the question of what is going on in the

757
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 4: West Bank.

758
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: That's what we're going to talk about here.

759
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 4: If we can put up this first elements, this is

760
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 4: Palestinian authority run West Bank Settler violence against Palestinians in

761
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 4: the West Bank.

762
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: Is rising now over the past year.

763
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 4: Violence in the in the West Bank from settlers and

764
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 4: from the idea of toward Palestinians was already at kind

765
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 4: of record levels over the years we've seen, but we've

766
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 4: seen pagrams directed at Palestinians that have been you know,

767
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 4: kind of ramped up to you know, a completely new level.

768
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: And again there's no, there's not amas.

769
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 4: This is a Palestinian authority which Palestinians see as a

770
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 4: as an arm of the Israeli occupation, like at Post Arafat,

771
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 4: who there's an interesting die documentary on how he was

772
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 4: killed that alleges that Israel poisoned Arafat. Post Arafat, the

773
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 4: Palasting authority is seen by a lot of Palsetatians is

774
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 4: just kind of another just a wing, just an arm

775
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 4: of the Israeli occupation. Yet this is what we're getting

776
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 4: in the West Bank.

777
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 5: Well, I think that's actually an important point of context.

778
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 5: In before October seventh, violence and casualties were already basically

779
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 5: coming close to record levels of the past couple of decades,

780
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 5: both for Israelis and Palestinians, and so tensions, you know,

781
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 5: it did come out of it. If it felt like

782
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 5: it came out of the blue, it did not actually

783
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 5: really come out of the blue. There was a lot

784
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 5: of I mean, there was an incredible amount of tension.

785
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 5: And that's another reason that you know, instead of and

786
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 5: we were just talking about this in the last segment,

787
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 5: instead of the paragliders and whatever else, what Hamas did.

788
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 5: And to your point, it's likely that Netanyahu knows this,

789
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 5: and people in Israel knows this, know this. What they

790
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 5: did was set back the cause of Palestinians. And so

791
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 5: instead of the paragliders and you know, saying that this

792
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 5: is the cost of decolonization, et cetera, et cetera, that's

793
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 5: completely misplaced celebration of you know, the what has it

794
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 5: been called, the you know, the the the decolonization effort,

795
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 5: the you know, retaliation, et cetera, et cetera. That set

796
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 5: back the Palestinian cause enormously. And Israel knows that, many

797
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 5: Palestinians know that, and so again, like that's just another

798
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 5: example of how poorly served so many civilians are by

799
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 5: world leadership, their own leadership in that area.

800
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it feels like the settlers and the IDF

801
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 4: in the West Bank are using the focus on the

802
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 4: war in Gaza to ramp up the polity that was

803
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 4: already being implemented. Put up C two here this from

804
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 4: hot retz Us threatens to stop supplying guns after Ben

805
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 4: Gavier gives them out at political events. Ben Gavier ultra

806
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 4: far right like there isn't there is enough adjectives to

807
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 4: describe how far right this net Yahoo minister is.

808
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 3: And he wouldn't rebuke that, No, he'd say to add

809
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 3: some more onto it.

810
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 4: He's handing out weapons to Israeli settlers who can then

811
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 4: kind of use them in the put grams and the

812
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 4: clearing out of of these of these territories. I think

813
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 4: we're decided we're not going to play it. People can

814
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 4: find it on their own. There is extremely disturbing Abu

815
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 4: Graban like footage circulating online of Palestinian civilians in the

816
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 4: West Bank being kind of beaten, held naked, dragged across

817
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 4: you know, hard scrabble dirt ground just abused in some

818
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 4: of the some of the most horrific ways you can imagine.

819
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 4: And again West Bank, this is happening in the West Bank. Uh,

820
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 4: this is not happening in Hamas controlled Gaza. I think

821
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 4: I think we have c three here Jewish voices for

822
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 4: piece saying that the footage of Israeli soldiers torturing Palestinian

823
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 4: men in the West Bank is horrific. The Israeli military

824
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 4: has brutally abused Palestinian prisoners for decades. As the Israelian

825
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 4: military wages a genocidal war in Gaza, its soldiers are

826
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 4: no longer hiding this abuse from the public. And part

827
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 4: and parcel of this entire strategy is also humiliation. And

828
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 4: that gets us to the TikTok trend that we're talking

829
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 4: about here. There's a song, it has a name. I

830
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 4: don't know the name of the song, but it's a

831
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 4: typical TikTok trend where people are doing basically the same

832
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: thing to a little dance to the same song, and

833
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 4: everybody's participating across society. Except this one is people who

834
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 4: have captured, you know, young Palestinians and blindfolded them in

835
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 4: handcuffs and then humiliating them with this dance being done

836
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 4: at kind of weddings being you know, children, you know,

837
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 4: it's really children are doing it. We could play we

838
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 4: could play a couple of the of the clips here, So.

839
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 5: If you were listening to that, what you saw was

840
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 5: a couple of videos, or what you would have seen

841
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 5: if you were watching a couple of videos of Israeli's

842
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 5: driving cars. The first video had what appeared to be

843
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 5: a group of Palestinian hostages in the back of the

844
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 5: car and the driver was sort of laughing along to

845
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 5: the meme. And then in the second video, again Israeli

846
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 5: driving a car and a.

847
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 3: Group of kids prominent journalists, I believe, so a group.

848
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 5: Of kids sort of mock having their hands tied together,

849
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 5: having their hands cuffed, kind of bopping along to the

850
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 5: song and smiling in the back ground.

851
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and.

852
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 4: Palace Citians and Israelis have to live together in this

853
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 4: part of the world, like they have all decided that

854
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 4: this is where they're going to live. And it just

855
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 4: seems like there's just no recognition of that fact that

856
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 4: I feel like that there can be an if there's

857
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 4: just you know, enough enough walls built, enough fences, enough

858
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 4: attacking back and forth, that somehow that will resolve itself.

859
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 3: But that's not the case.

860
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 5: It's just enormously difficult to imagine, you know, the effort

861
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 5: that it takes to resist that sort of human the

862
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 5: negative human impulses when you've seen and you know, just

863
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 5: given the numbers, basically everyone in Israel knows somebody who

864
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 5: was killed slaughtered by terrorists in the massacre. And the

865
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 5: worst human impulses bring us to positions like those bring

866
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 5: us to sort of laughing and smiling about the mistreatment

867
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 5: of other people, of civilians, and we saw that again.

868
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 5: They keep going to Iraq and Afghanistan and you invoked

869
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 5: Abu grab We have seen that impulse take us. And

870
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 5: I do think over Amas we have the moral high

871
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 5: ground that that that is not helpful, that is allowing

872
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 5: us to forfeit the moral high ground in in ways,

873
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 5: and I'm sort of conflating the US and Israel and

874
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 5: appropriately so in the broader West. But that's giving into

875
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 5: the very very worst of us.

876
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 3: And it's not easy.

877
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 4: And a lot of this is going on post October

878
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 4: seventh in the West Bank. But these these types of

879
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 4: humiliations are endemic to the occupation and so that's that's

880
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 4: also why it's an interesting question of what would the

881
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 4: Gazins even say if you said, Okay, the palest any

882
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 4: authority is going to be administering Godz at this point, Well,

883
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 4: the palting authority administer is the West Bank, and it's brutal,

884
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 4: like why would we want that?

885
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 5: And there's I mean, there's there's generations of anti Semitism

886
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 5: in uh. You know, there's just such a deep seated

887
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 5: and endemic hatred. You know that we would be foolish

888
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 5: to ignore in Gaza in the West Bank. But there's

889
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 5: also you know, we can't ignore it when you see

890
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 5: videos like this either, absolutely not. And what we can

891
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 5: do is not have John Kirby say, well, we want

892
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 5: to be able to have Palestinians come back, like we

893
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 5: want them to leave and be confident that they'll be

894
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 5: able to come back when the plan is to have

895
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 5: again people living in extremely close proximity. You know, there

896
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 5: is no end to the October seventh cycle and the

897
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 5: post October seventh cycle, there's just going to be a

898
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 5: whole lot of civilians caught in a rinse and repeat.

899
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 4: Let's do some rapid fire election stuff back here in

900
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 4: the United States.

901
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 5: You've told some examples that I didn't even know we're

902
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 5: on the ballot, and actually one is the first one

903
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 5: is a really important one. This is Ohio, the story

904
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 5: that we've been covering on Issue one in Ohio. I

905
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 5: had no idea, And this seems to me so importan

906
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 5: to the story that weed is also on the ballot,

907
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 5: that when people are going to vote on Issue one,

908
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 5: which we covered similar ballot measures in Michigan and Kansas

909
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 5: over the course of the last year, that's actually partially

910
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 5: what inspired pro abortion activists and actually anti abortion activists

911
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 5: to want this on the ballot and to fight for

912
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 5: this on the ballot going forward. That's really what they

913
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 5: were looking at. And now you add to all of

914
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 5: that energy, people are going to be going to vote

915
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 5: on Weed. Not a good sign for the anti abortion

916
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 5: people on my side of that issue.

917
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 3: No Emily saw that. Oh boy, five points.

918
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 5: Yeah.

919
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: So the reason that the anti abortion crowd pushed for

920
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 4: that amendment back in August, which would have made which

921
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 4: would have required a sixty percent threshold for questions to

922
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 4: be successful, was because this has been polling at fifty

923
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 4: eight fifty nine percent right at the threat. Right at

924
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 4: that line, maybe they would have gotten over, maybe it

925
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 4: wouldn't have. Now it only needs fifty percent because that

926
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 4: that maneuver was defeated.

927
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 5: To amend the Ohio Constitution that would in shrines, basically

928
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 5: says that you can make, as NPR describes it, reproductive

929
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,959
Speaker 5: health care decisions, including abortion. That is a constitutional guarantee

930
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 5: in Ohio. Should this pass next week?

931
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 4: So I think it's going to pass. You've probably been

932
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 4: filling a little bit more closely. Just generally it seems

933
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 4: like the it's well ahead. But what's your sense from

934
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 4: people on the ground.

935
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 5: I think it's absolutely going to pass, And now that

936
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 5: I know weeds on the ballot, I don't even think

937
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 5: it's going to be that close.

938
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 4: It should pass to this is a recreational it would

939
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 4: allow stores, it would allow it's basically would regulate it

940
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 4: similarly to alcohol. Would have a Bureau of Cannabis or

941
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 4: whatever help to oversee it.

942
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it creates like an entire department, right, an entire

943
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 5: sort of regulatory.

944
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 4: INFRASTRUCTIONACK structure that then funds schools, treatment centers, and all

945
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 4: that sort of stuff.

946
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 5: So, yeah, you can have two and a half ounces

947
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 5: of cannabis and up to fifteen grams of cannabis extract

948
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 5: if you're over the age of twenty one, and that's possession.

949
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 5: You can have up to six cannabis plants, or as

950
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 5: many as twelve if there are at least two adults

951
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 5: twenty year older in the household, which is kind of

952
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 5: a funny detail, Like if there's two of you, you

953
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 5: can go up to twelve plants.

954
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 3: Fair enough.

955
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 4: So if you're in Ohio, do go out and vote.

956
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 4: Come on, do your civic duty, get this done.

957
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,479
Speaker 5: You know what. And again, like as we talk about

958
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 5: issue one, it's incredibly serious because people in the anti

959
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 5: abortion side, in the kind of conservative movement space, say,

960
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 5: we saw what happened in Kansas, we saw what happened

961
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 5: in Michigan. We're basically getting routed in red and purple states,

962
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 5: states that we feel comfortable in, states like you know, Kansas.

963
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 5: Ohio is a place where they see this as kind

964
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 5: of the test lab for the United States. Like this

965
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 5: is a state that has rural areas, urban areas, that

966
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 5: has a total cross section of America in it, but

967
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 5: generally is red, generally in recent years has lean right.

968
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 5: And if you can't keep abortion out of the constitution

969
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 5: in Ohio, all of the dominoes will fall across the

970
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 5: rest of the country, and the left is going to

971
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 5: pour money into those remaining red states because a lot

972
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 5: of blue states post Doobs were able to sort of

973
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 5: shore up their constitutions or allow for abortion, find ways

974
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 5: to allow for abortion. And the aftermath of Dobbs and

975
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 5: the sort of post Row landscape, they say, well, we

976
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 5: can basically do this in all of these individual states

977
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 5: if we put enough money into it. And because it's unpopular.

978
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 4: Right so far, the anti abortion movement has taken l's

979
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 4: in Kansas, Kentucky, Montana looking like Ohio and yeah, like

980
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 4: you said, it raises the question where can they win?

981
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 4: What would be a state if they can't win Kansas, Mississippi,

982
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 4: maybe Kansas.

983
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 5: I actually intempted to give people the sort of devil's

984
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 5: advocate argument in Kansas because the way that referendum was

985
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 5: written was insane, I think it was. And they yeah,

986
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 5: and the Kansas one was, if I'm remembering correctly, that

987
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 5: was the first one, and it really caught people off

988
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 5: right right, And so people didn't immediately realize, you know,

989
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 5: how unpopular. A lot of people on the right didn't

990
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 5: immediately realize how much they were actually going to have

991
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 5: to make that argument that the ball was in their court,

992
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 5: that they were going to have to proactively sort of

993
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 5: make the argument for what you know, abortion law looks

994
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 5: like after Row, and they allowed the left to come

995
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 5: in and just absolutely bulldoze them. They didn't realize how unpopular.

996
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 5: And that's actually I think a real problem with the

997
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 5: pro life movement is not sort of understanding how unpopular

998
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 5: the position is. Yeah, oh yeah, and so and and

999
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 5: understand the reality on the ground, which is that these

1000
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 5: arguments are really really hard to make. It doesn't mean

1001
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 5: you shouldn't make them, of course, I don't think that,

1002
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 5: but you have to. You have to make them well.

1003
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 5: And so the consequence of what happens in Ohio could

1004
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 5: be tons of money and political resources being expended around

1005
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 5: the country to specifically target red states. And I think

1006
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 5: it's very likely that this passes. And I think that's

1007
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 5: very likely that dominoes from the perspective of somebody on

1008
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 5: the right and in the pro life space, those dominoes

1009
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 5: are going to continue to fall around the country after next.

1010
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 4: Week potentially groundbreaking referendum in Maine.

1011
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 5: This is an interesting Yeah.

1012
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 3: So right now there's.

1013
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 4: Two utilities and utility monopolies in Maine. This would be

1014
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 4: I think D three. People hate their utility monopolies. There's

1015
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 4: nothing that unites people, you know, more more quickly and

1016
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 4: more strongly than hatred of your local utility. And so

1017
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 4: what this would do is it would create Pine Tree Power,

1018
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 4: which would be a basically publicly owned and run, consumer

1019
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 4: owned and run power company where the positions would be elected,

1020
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 4: which would be interesting because now you've got you're going

1021
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 4: to have like nuclear and gas and solar and when

1022
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 4: people like running candidates to be on the utility.

1023
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 3: I'm sure that I'm sure thought thought all this through.

1024
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 5: Yes, I would hope.

1025
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 3: So at least there's.

1026
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 4: A huge debate over is this going to say money?

1027
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 4: Because ultimately what this comes down to people you know,

1028
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 4: like the ideas in general, but the real question is

1029
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 4: am I going to pay more?

1030
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 3: Am I going to pay less? For electricity?

1031
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 4: And importantly in Maine, is it going to be more

1032
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 4: reliable or less reliable a place like Maine with you know,

1033
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 4: it's called pine Dream power. When you've got trees all

1034
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 4: over the state and you're getting snow four or five

1035
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 4: months out of the year, you can have you can

1036
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 4: have a lot of power disruptions, and so the ability

1037
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 4: to keep power going is key to keeping popularity. And

1038
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 4: so this referendum would then would basically get rid of

1039
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 4: both utilities and combine them into one, one kind of

1040
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 4: people owned utility, which should I think it would be.

1041
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 4: It's worth a shot, Come on, Maine, try it well.

1042
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 5: The industry, interestingly enough, has been sort of dangling the

1043
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 5: and this is from main public the article just on

1044
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 5: the screen and arguing that quote this could ultimately star

1045
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 5: renewable energy development of it, So trying to drive the

1046
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 5: wedge between the hippies and their their quest for a

1047
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 5: public utilities, saying it's either the environment here or it's

1048
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 5: the duopoly.

1049
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 4: I'm sure, yes, the diopoly deeply cares about the transition

1050
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 4: to renewables, no doubt. The independent economic analysis suggested there

1051
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 4: was what it could save potentially eight hundred million dollars

1052
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 4: over the next however many years, But there will be

1053
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 4: some upfront costs basically to buy out the utilities and

1054
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 4: transition over. So we'll see, we'll see if people's kind

1055
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 4: of fear of the unknown and fear of change overrides

1056
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 4: their kind of desire to take control of their own utility,

1057
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 4: and how much faith people have in their kind of

1058
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 4: own collective democratic ability to run to do big things.

1059
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 5: Well, surely this also I mean really really fascinating A

1060
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 5: the initiative and b what could come of it, but

1061
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 5: also surely there's this is opening a lot of doors

1062
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 5: and peaking the interest of the industry as of right now.

1063
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 5: They obviously don't want to get obliterated, but they have

1064
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 5: to know that there will be plenty of opportunities for

1065
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 5: grift and cronyism should this actually pass, because the transition

1066
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 5: period sounds like it'll be a mess.

1067
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 3: True, but hard to be more corrupt than a than

1068
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 3: like an energy monopoly.

1069
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like like PGN like at this point, just

1070
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 5: formalize the public nature of it and let people vote.

1071
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 4: Right, There's never been a benign monopoly Like, that's just

1072
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 4: not how they work.

1073
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 3: That's happened. So moving down to Mississippi, my man Tate Reeves.

1074
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 5: Ryan gets apparently Ryan is told he looks like Tate Reeves.

1075
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 3: I told that too often. We put up D four here.

1076
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 4: These are numbers from five thirty eight which show if

1077
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 4: your Reeve's a disturbingly close race. The Democratic Governors Association

1078
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 4: kind of put out its own pole, which take with

1079
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 4: a grain of salt, obviously from mid October that has

1080
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 4: Reeves only up one previous polling had Reeves up anywhere

1081
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 4: between eight and seventeen points. Aside from kind of Brandon

1082
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 4: Presley internal poll that they put out in the summer,

1083
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 4: you should take with the extra extra grains of salt

1084
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 4: that had the race even now, Brandon Presley, if that

1085
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 4: name sounds familiar to you, Yes, that is the king's cousin.

1086
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 5: It's Mississippi.

1087
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is Elvis Presley's cousin.

1088
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 4: So and we can put up this next one here,

1089
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 4: I guess was just D five of so Tate Reeves.

1090
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 3: This is Mississippi today.

1091
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 4: A huge story breaking late in the campaign, Tate Reeves

1092
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 4: top political donors received one point four a billion with

1093
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 4: a B in state contracts from his agency. This kind

1094
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 4: of slots into the public scandal that you're probably already

1095
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 4: familiar with involving Brett farre And, you know, using welfare

1096
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 4: money to do whatever Brett Farv was dealing with welfare money.

1097
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 4: And so it raises the question like, is there any

1098
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 4: way that a Republican can lose in Mississippi? And if

1099
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 4: there is, it's this, it's at the hands of Brandon

1100
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 4: Presley Els. He's not just Elvis's cousin, he's an elected

1101
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 4: official in a Republican leaning district who the Republican's over

1102
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 4: there love him. So he speaks like a good pop

1103
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 4: he speaks the populist language. So it's like, you have

1104
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 4: an ideal Democratic candidate on one hand, you have just

1105
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 4: the platonic anti ideal of a candidate on the Republican side,

1106
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 4: no offense to my man, Is that enough to lose

1107
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 4: in Mississippi?

1108
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 3: I doubt it? But what do you think?

1109
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,439
Speaker 5: You know, it's funny. I was talking to actually some

1110
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 5: journalism students from Mississippi yesterday before we even decided to

1111
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 5: cover this topic, and they specifically mentioned Mississippi Today's coverage

1112
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 5: of the election. We're kind of talking about journalism, and

1113
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 5: they said, it's a little bit delusional. There's this this

1114
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 5: kind of idea that Presley's really close, when from some

1115
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 5: of the perspectives that I was hearing, it's still kind

1116
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 5: of a real long shot that Mississippi is really, you know,

1117
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 5: not vulnerable.

1118
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 3: I don't obviously, you might be right.

1119
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 5: I have no idea. That's just what I heard from

1120
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 5: those folks, and it does seem to me like the

1121
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 5: Democratic poll there is an outlier. There was one poll

1122
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 5: that had them, even from back in August. But the

1123
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 5: other right, yeah, the others from the last couple of months,

1124
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 5: look like you have Reaps up by a fairly comfortable

1125
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 5: margin eight to eleven points. Although polling in these state

1126
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 5: races is just really hard to trust anymore, extremely hard

1127
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 5: to trust anymore. I think they probably feel pretty pretty

1128
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 5: okay on the Tate Reefs campaign, and pretty okay is

1129
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 5: you know, what can you do in the age of

1130
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 5: Trump and Biden, both Democrats and Republicans. If you have

1131
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 5: a couple of pole that have you up eight and

1132
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 5: eleven and you're like, I'm pretty okay, that's probably the

1133
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 5: best you can do.

1134
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 4: And it feels like deep blue states are so much

1135
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 4: more willing to elect Republican governors than the reverse, like

1136
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 4: Vermont the Republican governor, Kentucky's I'm sure Kentucky has it down,

1137
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 4: but almost all of New England had Republicans in the

1138
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 4: last ten years. Maryland doesn't right now, but for a

1139
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 4: long time had Larry Hogan. Louisiana elected a Democrat who

1140
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 4: was just that they now have a Republican there. But

1141
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting because Kansas actually has a democratic government.

1142
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 5: And those are two areas where there's still that transit,

1143
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 5: Like there's such a historical gravitation towards Republicans in New

1144
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 5: England and a historical gravitation towards Democrats. And so I

1145
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 5: think those margins when there are marginal elections, the margins

1146
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 5: of people who will still vote. You know, people in

1147
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 5: my family, for example, in Wisconsin, you know lifetime union members,

1148
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 5: deep Catholics, who will literally not vote for Republican even

1149
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 5: though they probably a lot with Republicans on almost every

1150
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 5: issue except for probably like union support, but almost everything

1151
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 5: else down the line, They'll never vote for a Republican.

1152
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 5: And we all kind of know people who are in

1153
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 5: that camp. I think that's probably still is why Republicans

1154
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 5: are able to get elected in New England and Democrats

1155
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 5: are able to get elected in Louisiana. I mean, Richard

1156
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 5: Shelby of Alabama was a Democrat. He was till I think, yeah,

1157
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 5: he just left eighty two the Senate, but yeah, I

1158
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 5: think there's still some of that muscle memory.

1159
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 3: And so.

1160
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 4: The reverse is going on in western Pennsylvania. If we

1161
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 4: can put up D five, got some interesting elections there.

1162
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 4: First of all, there's a Pennsylvania Supreme Court election, which

1163
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 4: Democrats could lose and still control the court four to three,

1164
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 4: but if they win it that kind of locks them

1165
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 4: in for a long time. Pennsylvania Supreme Court obviously insanely

1166
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 4: important for elections, yes, just like the Wisconsin Supreme Court is,

1167
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 4: but in Alligating County, two really important races.

1168
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 3: Going on there.

1169
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 4: So the executive is a kind of berniicrat Lefty Sarah

1170
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 4: and Mamrano won the primary there but is now locked

1171
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 4: in a very fierce race with a with a popular Republican,

1172
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 4: and Republicans feel like if they ever have a chance

1173
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 4: to win, and county executive is the biggest position in right,

1174
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 4: that's that's the uh in in the Pennsylvania political structure,

1175
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 4: like to be Allegheny County Executive is bigger. That's a

1176
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 4: bigger deal than like being Pittsburgh mayor or whatever.

1177
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 3: Uh.

1178
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 4: And so they feel like they have they have a

1179
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:36,919
Speaker 4: real chance to upset Democrats here.

1180
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 3: They're there.

1181
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 4: Their argument is that Sarah's too far left and and

1182
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 4: it'll be interesting to see how the or if the

1183
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,920
Speaker 4: kind of war in Gaza, you know, plays into this election.

1184
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 4: It shouldn't because obviously the Alleghany County Executive has nothing

1185
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 4: to do with what's going on in Israel Palestine, but

1186
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 4: it's it's a hot issue and is an emotional one

1187
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 4: is going to and is going to probably bring people

1188
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 4: out on both sides. And so if I forget the

1189
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 4: guy's name, even but if the Republican wins, will have

1190
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 4: to learn his name because he will immediately become a

1191
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 4: candidate for governor and for Senate, having you know, having

1192
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 4: one in a blue area. We'll see separately the there's

1193
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 4: a DA race where a criminal justice reformer won previously

1194
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 4: and is kind of being challenged by a Democrat who

1195
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 4: just registered as a Republican.

1196
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 3: And so that's one way that.

1197
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 4: In these kind of deep blue areas you can get

1198
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 4: around to have the fact of not being able to

1199
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 4: win a primary, you just switch parties and run in

1200
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 4: the general election. So that that'll be an interesting one too,

1201
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 4: and a test of kind of the criminal justice reform,

1202
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 4: which reminds me we should mention Wesley Bell, a criminal

1203
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 4: justice reformer in Saint Louis, you know, was elected prosecutor

1204
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 4: out there.

1205
01:05:57,680 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 3: It's now challenging Corey.

1206
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 4: Bush with and and really hitting her kind of from

1207
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 4: the right, and I suspect it's going to have a

1208
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 4: lot of report yeah from I don't think he's hit

1209
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 4: her yet on that, but I suspect that, Uh, we'll

1210
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 4: see a lot of well, I think I suspect we'll

1211
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 4: see Israel Palace.

1212
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 3: I'm playing that race.

1213
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 5: A robust Jewish community in the Saint Louis area, isn't there.

1214
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 4: I don't know much about Saint Louis. Actually, screw, I

1215
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 4: really don't know much about that. I've driven through it.

1216
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 4: It's got that arch. Yes, I stopped and we looked

1217
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 4: at the arch. That's about all I got.

1218
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 3: I'll say lowis for you.

1219
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 5: So these races are happening on Tuesday. We'll be back

1220
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 5: here on Wednesday. And actually, Brian, I feel like this

1221
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 5: is your bread and butter. I love covering elections with

1222
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 5: the election.

1223
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:47,320
Speaker 3: Nights right, it will be we'll be here the day

1224
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 3: after the elections.

1225
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 5: You have eyes all over the country. It's actually amazing

1226
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 5: you have all of these like little it's your memory.

1227
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 5: You're able to just like recall these little races and

1228
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 5: know the dynamics.

1229
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 4: I just mostly follow the uh the Twitter account at

1230
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 4: Daniel ta and I e I'll just follow him on

1231
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 4: every election and seemed like an expert.

1232
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, he'll tell you what you need to know.

1233
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,439
Speaker 5: Although obviously some usually consequential things on the ballot, things

1234
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 5: that are not just important for people in states like

1235
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 5: Ohio and Pennsylvania. But we'll have ramifications in terms of

1236
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 5: funding and money all over the country, ripple effect for

1237
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 5: the next couple of years and in the presidential cycle

1238
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 5: as well, because everyone here in Washington is taking cues

1239
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 5: from these races in terms of what's going to happen

1240
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 5: over the course of the next year.

1241
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 4: Also, Virginia, of course, that's right, Virginia. Let's let's put's

1242
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 4: put Betts. Now that they the woman who.

1243
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 3: Was busted, oh, the Washington Post woman.

1244
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 4: The Washington Post busted on camera doing like what was

1245
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 4: the whatever the website was.

1246
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 5: I don't know. I ignored the entire story.

1247
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 4: Say that the Republicans have since taken like explicit photos

1248
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 4: of her and mailed them to like every voter in

1249
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 4: the district.

1250
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 5: This is counterproductive.

1251
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 4: This with a like note on the mail that said

1252
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 4: do not open if you're under eighteen, which every fourteen

1253
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 4: year old in that district immediately opened.

1254
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 5: And they're like porn is discussing and unbecoming. Here's something here's.

1255
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 4: Here's something mailed directly to your house orchect pointed out

1256
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 4: the amily throughout most of the twentieth century, that would

1257
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 4: have been intercepted and they would have been arrested. Yes, yeah,

1258
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 4: thankfully those laws have been overturned.

1259
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 3: But and Republicans are taking advantage of it. So does

1260
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 3: she win or what?

1261
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 5: I don't know, I actually don't know.

1262
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 4: It's a Richmond suburb and her seat could decide control

1263
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 4: of the Chamber, which would then put pressure on Youngkin

1264
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 4: to push forward on like an abortion ban or something. So, uh,

1265
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 4: it's we'll see if the Republican kind of moved backfired

1266
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 4: or if this district is not also not it's kind

1267
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 4: of a buttoned up place.

1268
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 5: So and remember with Virginia, Younkin as really stakes his

1269
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 5: political future on the outcome of this election. And I

1270
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 5: think a lot of the signs are really not great

1271
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 5: for Youngkin at this point. I think he wasn't able

1272
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 5: to get as much money for the races that he

1273
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 5: wanted to out of national publican organizations. So just a

1274
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,759
Speaker 5: really important night next Tuesday, and some of these random

1275
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 5: races that when they're settled, will help us piece together

1276
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 5: a better puzzle of what the landscape looks like going

1277
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 5: into the presidential election and will obviously affect voters and

1278
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 5: people living in these states that have big ballot measures

1279
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 5: and elections coming up.

1280
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:21,839
Speaker 3: I kind of want to go to that Richmond district

1281
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 3: and go to that far.

1282
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, we go to some precincts and just ask people

1283
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 4: get their take on how they're voting on this because

1284
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 4: people have written her off. I don't think you can.

1285
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 4: I think it's I think I think it's gonna be close.

1286
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean my instinct would be to say that,

1287
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 5: actually that she wins, because I don't think this stuff

1288
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 5: lands like it used to. It's an absurd story, but

1289
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 5: this is a post Trump era and people have sort

1290
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 5: of put those usual kind of boundaries aside and said,

1291
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 5: you know, I mean that's how Joe Biden want. Everybody's

1292
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 5: looking at this guy he's seen now and they're like, well,

1293
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:55,799
Speaker 5: we just don't want.

1294
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, we don't want person.

1295
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. So we've kind of crossed that rubicon.

1296
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 3: And was her husband she was on camera with, you're

1297
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 3: come on.

1298
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 5: Family values, Come on, it was monogamous in the bounds

1299
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:11,480
Speaker 5: of marriage, and she did it voluntarily.

1300
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 3: Of course, Yes, consenting adults. Leaves people alone, you leave

1301
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 3: them alone.

1302
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know, Josh Hawley is now wants to

1303
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 4: overturn Citizens United.

1304
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 5: This isn't amazing about this. This is just an amazing story.

1305
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:27,759
Speaker 5: So this was a scoop from a real clear politics

1306
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 5: Bill Wegman yesterday, obviously friend of the show, Josh Holly

1307
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 5: told him that he was introducing a bill that would

1308
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 5: undercut Citizens United. Obviously, a legislator can't reverse the Supreme

1309
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 5: Court decision, but you can introduce a bill that's kind

1310
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 5: of a ridiculous rebuttal, actually, because that's sort of the

1311
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 5: whole point of Congress is to make these laws, and

1312
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 5: the courts interpret them and say when something is unconstitutional

1313
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,520
Speaker 5: or goes too far. But very much money in politics

1314
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 5: is the business of Congress. Congress just refuses to act

1315
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 5: on some of these questions, and it's unlikely that this

1316
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 5: Holy Bill will go particularly far. But Holly makes this

1317
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 5: argument against Citizens United, which was the rallying cry of

1318
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 5: the conservative movement just ten years ago. Because Citizens United

1319
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 5: itself is a group of the conservative movement. Dave Bossi,

1320
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 5: who became very instrumental in Trump world as the leader

1321
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 5: of Citizens United, they were punished essentially by a law

1322
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 5: that was interpreted in a way that was not allowing

1323
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 5: them to broadcast anti Hillary, anti anti Hillary Clinton, anti

1324
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 5: sort of political establishment messaging. And the court made that

1325
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 5: decision back in twenty ten. It paved the way for

1326
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 5: basically the super pack structure. You've been covering this longer

1327
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 5: than I haven't, probably have some interesting thoughts on this.

1328
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 5: But Josh Holly is making his argument in the language

1329
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 5: of originalism. He's saying there is no originalist argument for

1330
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 5: equating corporation's speech and human beings speech and saying that

1331
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 5: that is both equally protected under the First Amendment. So

1332
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 5: did he sort of come out and make this absolute

1333
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 5: and absolutely vigorous argument against this long standing conservative position

1334
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 5: on speech. Mitch McConnell himself has been a huge champion

1335
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 5: of Citizens United and a huge opponent on any limits

1336
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 5: to political spending and elections. Holly comes out on fire

1337
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 5: against that and also makes the argument from a conservative perspective.

1338
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 5: So he's sort of using ROOSEVELTI and the phil points

1339
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 5: this out in the story. Arguments about business and lobbying

1340
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 5: and private interests, influence and politics, but then he also

1341
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 5: talks about originalism and the sort of conservative approach to

1342
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 5: constitutionalism and says Citizens United flies in the face of

1343
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 5: all of that. Now, this obviously rankled Mitch McConnell. We

1344
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 5: can put the next element up in the screen. I

1345
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 5: actually shouldn't say obviously, because why is Mitch McConnell getting

1346
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 5: all upset and hot and bothered about a bill that

1347
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 5: is likely going nowhere? Well because he knows that this

1348
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 5: is a really powerful argument with Republican voters. Jake Sherman

1349
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 5: of punch Bowl reports that McConnell went after Holly in

1350
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 5: a closed Senate Republican meeting yesterday. Holly signed onto the

1351
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 5: end Citizens Knightabille. McConnell told Holly that he's only in

1352
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,600
Speaker 5: the Senate because of the Senate Leadership Fund, which accepts

1353
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 5: unlimited contributions, and then McConnell warned that anyone who signs

1354
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 5: on will get heavy incoming from the right. Absolutely true,

1355
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 5: total threat and a serious threat. But by the way,

1356
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 5: Mitch McConnell saying, as your argument that because Josh Holly

1357
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 5: was elected by bad rules, he should not protest those

1358
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 5: bad rules, that is not an argument. It is the

1359
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:41,759
Speaker 5: laziest argument, and the dumbest argument you could possibly muster

1360
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 5: in defense of your position.

1361
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 4: But McConnell probably feels like a parent, you know, who's

1362
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,600
Speaker 4: like left left wing kid is complaining about whatever.

1363
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 5: Just got back from his first semester at Oberlin.

1364
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:59,560
Speaker 4: Right, How do you think this Without this inequality and

1365
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 4: this tax structor, you wouldn't have been at Oberlin, right,

1366
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 4: You never would have done it.

1367
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,639
Speaker 3: So that's Holly. He's the Oberlin kid complaining about it.

1368
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 5: Good though, But Holly is more than the Oberlin kid.

1369
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 5: I mean, this is a guy who's legal pedigree is

1370
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 5: in terms of like conservative legal circles. He's very accomplished,

1371
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 5: Like he's a former state attorney general. I think he

1372
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:25,640
Speaker 5: clerked for Alito on the Supreme Court has I mean,

1373
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 5: his pedigree is very impressive. So it's not as though

1374
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 5: he's like some young whipper snapper who doesn't really know

1375
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,360
Speaker 5: much about the court and is coming in firing off.

1376
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 5: And I think that's why it bothered McConnell.

1377
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:37,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I welcome converts.

1378
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 4: I question how sincere it is, you know, is it

1379
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 4: just political posturing because he knows it's not going to pass.

1380
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 4: But his argument, as Philip Quoter means I am an originalist,

1381
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:49,759
Speaker 4: and I don't think you can make an originalist case

1382
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,679
Speaker 4: for business corporations being treated like individuals when it comes

1383
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:55,519
Speaker 4: to the right to political speech. And I think from

1384
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 4: an intellectual perspective, he's completely right.

1385
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 3: You can't.

1386
01:14:58,400 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 4: You have to just do it from a raw power

1387
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,799
Speaker 4: person act of the way that McConnell and the Conservative

1388
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 4: Supreme Court kind of rammed it through. Up until Sits United,

1389
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 4: it was broadly understood that the Constitution gives the government

1390
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 4: broad power to regulate elections because without faith and elections,

1391
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,559
Speaker 4: everything else crumbles. Like you need that, and so therefore

1392
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 4: you can do a little extra to make sure that

1393
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 4: people believe in them. When in Citizens United, the argument

1394
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 4: was made that as long as spending is done independently's

1395
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 4: and that's their word, independently, then there can't be a

1396
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 4: quid pro quo because you gave to a super pac, Right,

1397
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 4: you gave to a super pac, not to the candidate.

1398
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 4: And if songs a super pac never spoke to the candidate,

1399
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 4: then you know, how could the candidate possibly owe the

1400
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 4: super pac anything that was transparently silly? Right, But we've

1401
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 4: since seen that people who are elected by super packs

1402
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,200
Speaker 4: or beaten by super packs very much, are then kind

1403
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 4: of controlled by those super packs. McConnell undermines the entire

1404
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 4: argument right there. He says, look, you're dependent on these

1405
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 4: super PACs.

1406
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 3: How dare you?

1407
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1408
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:10,000
Speaker 3: Well, the whole.

1409
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 4: Reasoning in Citizens United was that there's independence between super

1410
01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 4: PACs and the candidates.

1411
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 3: So then how can McConnell come in and say that's

1412
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 3: a good point, like it's such a good paint you

1413
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 3: depended on them?

1414
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,679
Speaker 5: He just made the counter argument proudly right.

1415
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 4: But it's not an intellectual argument. It's a power argument.

1416
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 5: Well, and that's okay. So from the conservative perspective, by

1417
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 5: talking about Citizens United, the group Citizens United not the case,

1418
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 5: they will make this point, and there is very much

1419
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 5: legitimate there's very much a legitimate argument here that the

1420
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 5: left sort of controls the federal bureaucracy. And when I

1421
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 5: say the left, I mean really the kind of center left,

1422
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,720
Speaker 5: not the left left, not like Bernie people, the federal bureaucracy,

1423
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 5: but the sort of center left controls the federal bureaucracy.

1424
01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 5: They control Hollywood, they control these various institututions, levers of power.

1425
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 5: The one thing conservatives have any say in the one

1426
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 5: like kind of major institution. Again, this is, as the

1427
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 5: argument goes, is wall Street is the business sector. Like,

1428
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 5: that's the one place where conservatives feel like they have

1429
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 5: allies in this larger this larger landscape. And so that's

1430
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,879
Speaker 5: why they said, you know, citizens united, the raw power argument.

1431
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 5: Here's the legitimate here, here's the sort of the virtue

1432
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 5: behind equating corporations and people. It's because we have absolutely

1433
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 5: like we will be punished if we air something critical

1434
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:41,559
Speaker 5: of Hillary, because the federal bureaucracy and all of these

1435
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 5: laws about campaign finance, et cetera, will be weaponized by

1436
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 5: the kind of center left bureaucracy against conservative speech. And

1437
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 5: so opening up this can of worms on super packs

1438
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 5: and campaign spending is the only way that conservatives can

1439
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 5: compete with the Hollywood superstructure, can compete with all of

1440
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 5: these various institutions holding them back. But now Josh Holly

1441
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 5: sees that it is like Wall Street, and this is

1442
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 5: part of the argument he's making to people like McConnell.

1443
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:13,800
Speaker 5: Wall Street actually hates Conservatives. It might find alliances with

1444
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,759
Speaker 5: Republicans when it comes to taxes and like limited government,

1445
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,800
Speaker 5: Like does wall Street love limited government? No of course not,

1446
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 5: but they do. Sometimes sometimes they really want to limit

1447
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 5: a government. Other times they want more government because it

1448
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,240
Speaker 5: will help their monopoly or whatever it is, as we

1449
01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 5: were talking about earlier, and so they will sometimes make

1450
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 5: these alliances with Republicans more often than not. But then

1451
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 5: on the cultural side, Josh Holly looks at, for instance,

1452
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 5: what the MLB did with Georgia's voting law back in

1453
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:45,560
Speaker 5: twenty twenty, and it's like, these people are not your friends,

1454
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 5: Like you seriously thought that this was the one alliance

1455
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 5: in all of these institutions that would benefit you. You're

1456
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 5: wrong about that. And maybe Josh Holly was wrong about that.

1457
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 5: I don't know where he stood on Citizens United originally.

1458
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 5: But to the point about the sort of the raw

1459
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 5: power argument, yeah, I mean, I think punishing people for

1460
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 5: being critical of Hillary Clinton is a real problem. At

1461
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:12,800
Speaker 5: the same time, equating corporations with human beings as mitt

1462
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 5: Ronnelly sort of smugly, famously quick about people my friend. Yeah,

1463
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 5: it just sort of smuggly look like winking into the

1464
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 5: camera when he says it. It's just disgusting.

1465
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 4: And I think before we move on to Rampaul, it's

1466
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 4: interesting to think about whether or not. The FEC really

1467
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 4: blew it and going after Citizens United. So for people

1468
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 4: that don't know the story, Citizens United created a basically

1469
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 4: a documentary hit piece on Hillary.

1470
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 3: It was an AD, but it was like an hour

1471
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:40,640
Speaker 3: and a.

1472
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:42,759
Speaker 4: Half long ad or something like that, and they wanted

1473
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 4: to then spend his money to air it, and the

1474
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 4: FEC said you can't do that within you know, sixty

1475
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 4: days of the general election or thirty days at the primary,

1476
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 4: whatever it was.

1477
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 3: And they said, well, that's not fair. This is just speech.

1478
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 4: And FEC should have been like, you know what, run

1479
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 4: your just run your little Hillary documentary.

1480
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:03,639
Speaker 3: It's fine.

1481
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 5: We don't need to set precedent in the landmark case,

1482
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,479
Speaker 5: right because the court's not looking good for us right now,

1483
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:11,719
Speaker 5: and we're going to just obliterate our ability to regulate

1484
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:15,799
Speaker 5: anything in which they did. Yeah, I mean this is

1485
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:19,760
Speaker 5: Citizens United. And again, like you, I really value your

1486
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 5: perspective on this because you saw this happen in real time.

1487
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 5: What it did to campaign spending was enormous, and I

1488
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 5: have heard I was, I was glad Holly introduced this bill.

1489
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 5: And I don't know if this bill itself is the

1490
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,640
Speaker 5: right answer. But conservatives have basically completely swept under the

1491
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 5: rug the issue of campaign spending and finance campaign finance reform.

1492
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 5: And again that's not to endorse like a McCain fine

1493
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 5: Gold solution either. It is simply to say that since

1494
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 5: Citizens United campaign spending has gotten so completely insane and

1495
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:54,480
Speaker 5: out of control, there's there has to be a conservative

1496
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 5: answer that is not good. Prusions are people, my friend,

1497
01:20:57,400 --> 01:20:59,720
Speaker 5: And there's literally no conversation about it. I've heard it

1498
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 5: from or in cass and now from Josh Holly, but

1499
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 5: there's basically been no discussion about it. So let's have

1500
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 5: the conversation because we have to come to some solution here.

1501
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 5: The status quo is horrific.

1502
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 4: Always welcome, that's right. You can see where ran Paul

1503
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 4: sits on this.

1504
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. We have Senator ran Paul is going

1505
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:19,280
Speaker 5: to be with us right after this.

1506
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 3: We are very.

1507
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:26,200
Speaker 5: Pleased to be joined now by Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky,

1508
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 5: who is the author of the new book Deception, the

1509
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 5: Great COVID cover Up. We're eager to dive into this

1510
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:36,080
Speaker 5: book and all of Senator Rand Paul's work on this

1511
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 5: extremely important issue. First, I want to get your thoughts,

1512
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:41,479
Speaker 5: Senator Paul, on your exchange yesterday with Christopher Ray, which

1513
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 5: is actually entirely related to what you wrote about in

1514
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 5: the book, and I just want to ask you about

1515
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:49,720
Speaker 5: one of his quotes. In particular, you're pushing him on

1516
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 5: the FBI's conduct with social media companies, and you say,

1517
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:55,600
Speaker 5: to my knowledge, or Christopher Ray said, and answer to

1518
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 5: your question, to my knowledge, our agents conducted themselves in

1519
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 5: compliance the law throughout. And that's in response to your

1520
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:06,519
Speaker 5: question about whether or not they were attacking constitutionally allowed

1521
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 5: protected speech. I want to ask, did Christopher Ray perjure

1522
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 5: himself yesterday based on what we know from reporting and

1523
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 5: other sources. You mentioned depositions about how the FBI conducted

1524
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 5: itself during the pandemic in relation to constitutionally protected speech.

1525
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 7: You know, I think it's an open question.

1526
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,160
Speaker 13: You know, one of the things that they say they

1527
01:22:26,200 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 13: were involved with was election integrity. Well, what if election

1528
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:34,519
Speaker 13: integrity involves the dossier that was forwarded by a campaign,

1529
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:38,759
Speaker 13: a political campaign, the Clinton campaign, the Steele dossier forwarded

1530
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:41,599
Speaker 13: and then a lot of these things are predicated upon that.

1531
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 13: What if there's a Hunter Biden laptop that then is suppressed.

1532
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:48,400
Speaker 13: It seems to me that there is in this area

1533
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 13: constitutionally protected speech that you could have an opinion one

1534
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,320
Speaker 13: way or the other. But to somehow say that the

1535
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 13: government should be suppressing this is.

1536
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 7: A real problem. Now.

1537
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:00,240
Speaker 13: To my mind, what I've been most interested in is

1538
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,639
Speaker 13: whether or not the virus originated in the Labin Wuhan.

1539
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 13: For over a year, Facebook suppressed that, and they said

1540
01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 13: they did it at the behest of the FBI.

1541
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:11,720
Speaker 7: They basically said, the FBI.

1542
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 13: Came to us and said there's going to be a

1543
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:17,679
Speaker 13: lot of misinformation out there, particularly maybe misinformation with guard

1544
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 13: to elections, but also misinformation about China.

1545
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,759
Speaker 7: And they were worried that too much bashing of China

1546
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 7: was going on.

1547
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 13: And so there is a question of whether or not

1548
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 13: the FBI, or the Department of Homeland Security, or frankly,

1549
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 13: the CDC or the White House directly was involved. I

1550
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:36,799
Speaker 13: want to know what was going on in these meetings.

1551
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 13: I want to see the minutes of these meetings. I

1552
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:42,040
Speaker 13: don't want to hear the characterization from Director Ray or

1553
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 13: the characterization from Secretary of my org is that they

1554
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 13: weren't censoring. Let's hear what they were discussing. And what

1555
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:50,600
Speaker 13: I asked people to imagine is imagine at the end

1556
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:54,599
Speaker 13: of this interview you are given a surprise visit by

1557
01:23:54,600 --> 01:23:57,240
Speaker 13: the FBI and they want to discuss our interview, and

1558
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:00,120
Speaker 13: they want to discuss which portions of what I said

1559
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 13: did they consider to be misinformation or disinformation. I'm guessing

1560
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 13: you would resist. I'm guessing you would be outraged. It's

1561
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 13: the same outrage we should have towards any from anybody

1562
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 13: from the government meeting with social media companies as well.

1563
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 4: On the question of the origin of COVID's really the

1564
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:22,920
Speaker 4: subject of this book. I'm curious what your interactions have

1565
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:25,320
Speaker 4: been like. You're kind of behind the scenes with Democrats

1566
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:27,240
Speaker 4: over the last couple of years. As I try to

1567
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:30,160
Speaker 4: think about Democrats who are open to even kind of

1568
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:34,000
Speaker 4: interrogating the question, I can think of Representative Brendan Boyle,

1569
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 4: a Democrat over in the House, and a handful of

1570
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,840
Speaker 4: other Democrats. I'm not sure I can think of many

1571
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 4: on the Senate side, if any. And I'm wondering, what

1572
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 4: was it like. Did you try to reach across the

1573
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 4: aisle and find democrats who could make this less of

1574
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 4: a partisan issue so that you could get to the

1575
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 4: truth of the matter, And what were those what were

1576
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 4: those conversations.

1577
01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:00,839
Speaker 13: Like from the very beginning, I've reached out Tomocrat chairman's

1578
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:04,840
Speaker 13: of Committee because the Biden administration, and to be fair,

1579
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:08,640
Speaker 13: the Trump administration said they wouldn't reveal any data to

1580
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:11,400
Speaker 13: anyone who didn't have the signature of a chairman. So

1581
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:13,879
Speaker 13: I've worked with both the chairman of the Health Committee,

1582
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:17,280
Speaker 13: Bernie Sanders, as well as the Homeland Security both of

1583
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 13: which I'm one of the top Republicans on to try

1584
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 13: to get information. But I have to get their signature.

1585
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:24,600
Speaker 13: But the only way I've been able to get the

1586
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 13: signature is really usually by trading. I have to hold

1587
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,719
Speaker 13: up like a dozen nominees, hold up two dozen pieces

1588
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 13: of legislation, and I have to play hardball and I

1589
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 13: release things in exchange for signatures to get records.

1590
01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:38,799
Speaker 7: But then the White House still resists.

1591
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 13: Even when I get a Democrat to sign on, the

1592
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:45,599
Speaker 13: White House resists. I'm having more trouble getting NIH grants

1593
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:49,919
Speaker 13: that are unclassified than I am in talking to the CIA,

1594
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 13: and that's saying something because the CIA doesn't divulge much

1595
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 13: of anything, but the NIH and HHS is actually worse.

1596
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 13: So it's been a real struggle, but it's not for

1597
01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 13: lack of trying, and it is still to me a

1598
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 13: curious fact that the Democrats are disinterested. There just has

1599
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 13: been no interest on the side of Democrats to investigating

1600
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 13: this or to doing much.

1601
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 7: Now we're slowly getting breakthroughs.

1602
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 13: I've started working with Chairman Peters and he signed a

1603
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 13: few letters and we're actually talking about doing some joint.

1604
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 7: Hearings, but it's very, very slow.

1605
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,040
Speaker 13: And to me, the comparison I like to make is

1606
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 13: that if you want to have a hearing and your

1607
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 13: allegation is that the plastic in your water bottle causes cancer,

1608
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:32,640
Speaker 13: I think we've had two dozen of those hearings. But

1609
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 13: if a million people died from a disease, and we

1610
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 13: all can pretty much document a lot of people died

1611
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:40,599
Speaker 13: from COVID, both here and worldwide, we haven't had real

1612
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:44,680
Speaker 13: hearings as could we possibly have been the cause, could

1613
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,519
Speaker 13: we possibly have funded the lab that allowed this leak

1614
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 13: to happen, And shouldn't we reform our safety procedure as

1615
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 13: our scrutiny.

1616
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:52,639
Speaker 7: You would think they'd be all over.

1617
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 13: This, and yet the mainstream media as well as a

1618
01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 13: Democrat party which sometimes there's not much difference, really have

1619
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 13: done nothing other than sort of recommend million dollar prizes

1620
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 13: for Anthony Falci and put his he's got his mask

1621
01:27:05,400 --> 01:27:09,280
Speaker 13: now on the Smithsonian, his Washington National's mask, which is

1622
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 13: of absolutely no health benefit and actually was a disservice

1623
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 13: to all of us to recommend anybody at risk would

1624
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:21,400
Speaker 13: wear a cotton mask, because basically that's just malpractice, it's

1625
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:22,120
Speaker 13: bad advice.

1626
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:25,920
Speaker 4: Back on the code origin question, what would they say

1627
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:28,920
Speaker 4: when you're meeting with say a Senator Bernie Sanders and

1628
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 4: saying like, look, we need these documents because it is

1629
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 4: possible that it leaked from this lab, and we need

1630
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:41,200
Speaker 4: to think about tighter regulations for the health and safety

1631
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:45,599
Speaker 4: of the entire globe. And these are very democratic sounding arguments.

1632
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 4: You know, you're a libertarian talking about more regulations. You

1633
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 4: would think that they're kind of intent. Would go and say, hey,

1634
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:53,680
Speaker 4: there might be even if I don't want to get

1635
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 4: into some China bashing, we should regulate this mortally. So

1636
01:27:57,200 --> 01:28:01,120
Speaker 4: would you hear back, did they under stand the underlying

1637
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 4: kind of.

1638
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:03,240
Speaker 5: Information or no?

1639
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:07,000
Speaker 13: I think that you know, we live in different worlds,

1640
01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 13: we have different tribes, we look at different news. I

1641
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:11,920
Speaker 13: don't think they've really read or have been too much

1642
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 13: interested in the origins of this. But here's what I've

1643
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 13: tried with Bernie Sanders. Jeffrey Sachs is a progressive economist.

1644
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 13: He's been a high ranking UN consultant, He's been in

1645
01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 13: every progressive wing of a lot of things you can imagine.

1646
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 13: But he's also an honest progressive and I'm a big

1647
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 13: fan of his. Actually, he headed the Lancet Report. He

1648
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 13: initially started out thinking that in all likelihood, Anthony Fauci,

1649
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 13: Peter Daizak, all these people write it probably game from animals.

1650
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:42,640
Speaker 13: He investigated it for eighteen months and came to the

1651
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,600
Speaker 13: opposite conclusion. Well, he was also known as Bernie Sanders' economists.

1652
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 13: I mean, he was a supporter of Bernie Sanders during

1653
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 13: his presidential election.

1654
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 7: I thought, well, wow, why.

1655
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:52,639
Speaker 13: Don't I get him to see if he can help

1656
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:55,599
Speaker 13: me get Bernie to be interested. And we actually did

1657
01:28:55,640 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 13: set up a meeting where he was there, and Bernie

1658
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 13: came by, I believe, and said hello. But we still

1659
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 13: have had trouble, and Bernie privately will say, well, yeah,

1660
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 13: maybe you know you've got a point.

1661
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 7: And this and that.

1662
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 13: Then we get stiff armed by his staff and todate.

1663
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 13: We haven't had one signature. We're not even talking about

1664
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 13: a hearing. We're talking about a signature requesting records. And

1665
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 13: this really at one point in time, it was us

1666
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:19,760
Speaker 13: against them, the legislative branch against the executive branch. Now

1667
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 13: it's all Republican Democrat and they on this issue have

1668
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 13: decided that the Democrat position is to support the government

1669
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:31,040
Speaker 13: and government secrecy. And it's disappointing, but it's not for

1670
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 13: my lack of trying to get cooperation.

1671
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:34,840
Speaker 7: It's just that I've gotten no cooperation.

1672
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:37,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I want to get to that question actually

1673
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 5: of motivation in Peter Dajac, because you have a quote

1674
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:41,719
Speaker 5: in your book from Peter Dasjac where as you say

1675
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:45,600
Speaker 5: he's sort of bragging about all of the different coronaviruses

1676
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,719
Speaker 5: that could exist. He said, you know, the Wuhan Institute

1677
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 5: of Orology had discovered over one hundred new stars related coronaviruses,

1678
01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 5: and you right, So, yes, it's quite possible. There are

1679
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 5: many coronaviruses that Chinese have not been forthcoming about. You

1680
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:01,800
Speaker 5: also write about Fauci. He knew one thing for certain.

1681
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:04,360
Speaker 5: He had funded those labs, he had publicly supported gain

1682
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:06,760
Speaker 5: of function research and had purposely allowed that research to

1683
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:09,519
Speaker 5: avoid the scrutiny of the Pandemic Pathogen Committee. And we

1684
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 5: can only conclude that he weighed the odds and decided

1685
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:14,680
Speaker 5: that the cover up was his best option. This is

1686
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 5: all happening under the nose of the Trump administration, and

1687
01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:20,280
Speaker 5: I wonder to what extent you believe this implicates the

1688
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:22,200
Speaker 5: United States government. You talked about it a little bit

1689
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 5: earlier in this conversation, but the Chinese government is certainly

1690
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,519
Speaker 5: implicated here. It's just it's hard to get around the issue,

1691
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,679
Speaker 5: given all we know about Dazac and Fauci at this point,

1692
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 5: that the United States may have been complicit a in

1693
01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 5: the pandemic, complicit at best A in the pandemic, and

1694
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 5: then B in covering up our role in the pandemic's origins.

1695
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:46,240
Speaker 5: And that seems to be a grave reflection on America.

1696
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 13: You know, The thing is is that it's easy for

1697
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:53,280
Speaker 13: us to believe that the totalitarian government in China might

1698
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 13: cover things up. In fact, they've covered up their death rate,

1699
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 13: they covered up the transmissibility. They initially said it didn't

1700
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 13: transmit human to human. We now know that the three

1701
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:05,040
Speaker 13: people who got sick first with this in all likelihood

1702
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 13: worked in the lab of the gain of function scientist

1703
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 13: doctor She and it occurred in November of twenty nineteen,

1704
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:14,479
Speaker 13: didn't start in January, and it was riproaring by January,

1705
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 13: but it really probably started in November. So we expect

1706
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:20,800
Speaker 13: that from Chinese totalitarian government. You wouldn't expect it so

1707
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:21,839
Speaker 13: much from our government.

1708
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 7: Sort of.

1709
01:31:22,840 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 13: One of the things about democracy or representative government is

1710
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:28,640
Speaker 13: supposed to be openness and transparency. That makes us so

1711
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:31,640
Speaker 13: much different. But we've had the same thing here. And

1712
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 13: I've told people that this conspiracy involves hundreds of people

1713
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 13: in our government, and people are aghast and they say, oh,

1714
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 13: no way, that's crazy. Hundreds of people. Well, I think

1715
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 13: George Carlin explained it best. Conspiracy theories are not necessary

1716
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 13: where interests converge, and the interest here is that if

1717
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:52,280
Speaker 13: you touched any money that went to Wuhan and you

1718
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:54,120
Speaker 13: think the virus might have come out of that lab,

1719
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:57,120
Speaker 13: anybody that was involved with funding the lab or involved

1720
01:31:57,120 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 13: with this at all, feels a self interest in preserving

1721
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:03,120
Speaker 13: or obscuring.

1722
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 7: The fact that they were related to this.

1723
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 13: So Anthony Fauci's first responses were no, funding went to

1724
01:32:08,680 --> 01:32:11,600
Speaker 13: wu Hunt at all, and he's basically lying because it

1725
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 13: went to a conduit, it went to an EcoHealth and

1726
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 13: a secondary gram.

1727
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:17,559
Speaker 7: And then he got over that argument and he.

1728
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:21,400
Speaker 13: Said, well, no gain of function research went there. But

1729
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:24,840
Speaker 13: then we find private emails or that everything virtually that

1730
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:26,840
Speaker 13: he said in private is the opposite of what he

1731
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 13: was saying in public. We find a private email that

1732
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:33,160
Speaker 13: summarizes the February first, twenty twenty conversation, and in that

1733
01:32:33,360 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 13: in that email, he says, all the virologists got together

1734
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 13: today worldwide and we all kind of agree it looks

1735
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,800
Speaker 13: like the virus has been manipulated in the lab, and

1736
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:47,599
Speaker 13: so we think that it's, you know, very possible that

1737
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:50,519
Speaker 13: it came to the lab, and we're equally suspicious or

1738
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 13: even more suspicious because we know they do gain and

1739
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 13: function research.

1740
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:58,240
Speaker 7: And he described some experiments. Well, the experiments he described.

1741
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:01,439
Speaker 13: Were funded by the NIH, funded by his division. They

1742
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:04,599
Speaker 13: have a grant number on their acknowledging their funding. And

1743
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:10,679
Speaker 13: so basically in private, he's basically admitting that exactly everything

1744
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 13: that he denies in public.

1745
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 7: And it's the same for the others.

1746
01:33:13,439 --> 01:33:15,960
Speaker 13: There's a Christian Anderson who says at one point, this

1747
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 13: is no fringe theory, this is no conspiracy theory in

1748
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:21,640
Speaker 13: a private email, but in public he's calling everybody a

1749
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:25,639
Speaker 13: kook or a nut who brings this up. And then

1750
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 13: you have the whole idea that was the government involved

1751
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 13: in suppressing the knowledge of this on social media? And

1752
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:35,719
Speaker 13: I absolutely believe that we will find I think actually

1753
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:39,639
Speaker 13: the Missouri versus Biden depositions have already shown the government

1754
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:43,920
Speaker 13: was involved wei trying to suppress anybody or any story

1755
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 13: that had to do with the virus coming from the

1756
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 13: lab in Wuhan.

1757
01:33:47,840 --> 01:33:50,839
Speaker 4: And we're at a place now where Anthony Fauci himself

1758
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 4: even acknowledges that it is an open possibility that the

1759
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 4: Wuhan lab may have been kind of the origin of

1760
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:00,200
Speaker 4: the coronavirus. So given that he acknowledges that at this

1761
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:03,839
Speaker 4: point that it's possible, that raises a lot of questions

1762
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 4: about how we ought to think about gain of function

1763
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:09,679
Speaker 4: research going forward. We have more labs around the world

1764
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 4: doing this dangerous research than we had before the pandemic started.

1765
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 4: Monica Berknoli has been nominated to run the NIH. You

1766
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 4: asked her what her position was on gain of function research.

1767
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:28,640
Speaker 4: I think white Coat Waste published some of those responses.

1768
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 4: You've obviously seen them since he responded to you, how

1769
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 4: would you characterize her response and do you how will

1770
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 4: you be voting on her when she comes if and

1771
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:38,599
Speaker 4: when she comes to the floor.

1772
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:44,040
Speaker 13: I'd say her responses were mostly bureaucrat tease, mamb pamby

1773
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:47,840
Speaker 13: nothing definitive, but really no acknowledgment of the danger of

1774
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 13: gain of function, saying we've got all these controls in

1775
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 13: place and we're.

1776
01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 7: Doing a good job. Just look the other way.

1777
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:55,680
Speaker 13: Well, we do have some controls, but one of the

1778
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:57,960
Speaker 13: points we make in the book is is that the

1779
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:02,599
Speaker 13: Pandemic Safety Committee the research never went there. The Pandemic

1780
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 13: Committee doesn't have the ability or power to reach out

1781
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:06,160
Speaker 13: and look at grants.

1782
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:08,479
Speaker 7: They have to be volunteered. And so what I asked

1783
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 7: Fauchi about this, he.

1784
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:11,839
Speaker 13: Says, my experts have looked up and down, they've.

1785
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 7: Looked at this research and it's not gain a function. Well,

1786
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 7: then show us the deliberations.

1787
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:20,200
Speaker 13: We still haven't seen those deliberations, and explain yourself why

1788
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:23,680
Speaker 13: you chose to go around the Pandemic Safety Committee and

1789
01:35:23,720 --> 01:35:27,040
Speaker 13: allow this funding to go to Wuhan and understand that

1790
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:29,120
Speaker 13: it was a terrible judgment error on his part to

1791
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:31,080
Speaker 13: allow it to go around the Safety Committee and make

1792
01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:33,080
Speaker 13: the judgment on his own, because in.

1793
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:35,520
Speaker 7: The end this may well have led to the pandemic.

1794
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:37,600
Speaker 13: So there are a great deal of problems, and I

1795
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:45,200
Speaker 13: don't think she recognizes the absolute need to reform the system.

1796
01:35:45,479 --> 01:35:51,799
Speaker 13: We need a much strengthened regulatory apparatus pandemic regulatory safety

1797
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 13: apparatus over this. I don't think she recognizes that. The

1798
01:35:55,240 --> 01:35:58,120
Speaker 13: other reason I'll vote against her is that in her

1799
01:35:58,200 --> 01:36:01,719
Speaker 13: career she's received over two hundred million dollars in grants

1800
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:05,240
Speaker 13: from Advisor, and if Visor were just developing drugs, it

1801
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:07,960
Speaker 13: wouldn't be such a big deal. But they developed drugs

1802
01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:11,280
Speaker 13: that then the government mandates and the government pushes and

1803
01:36:11,320 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 13: they may say, oh, it's not a mandate. Well, once

1804
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 13: you make it sort of strongly worded by the CDC,

1805
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:20,080
Speaker 13: and government filters down to governors who may mandate it,

1806
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:22,760
Speaker 13: but also filters to school systems who say, oh, we're

1807
01:36:22,920 --> 01:36:25,400
Speaker 13: making the kids get this because the CDC says we should.

1808
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 13: So in some ways, they are giving mandates to for

1809
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 13: a drug that a private company makes money off of,

1810
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 13: and she's been intimately associated with that company in a large,

1811
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:36,679
Speaker 13: multi million dollar way.

1812
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 7: I just think it'll be hard.

1813
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 13: I mean, I think she should Probably the better part

1814
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:43,519
Speaker 13: of valor would be to recuse herself from all decisions

1815
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 13: concerning Advisor, and I didn't get that in my answers either.

1816
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:52,320
Speaker 5: Republicans have been focused a lot on Chinese culpability, and

1817
01:36:52,479 --> 01:36:55,839
Speaker 5: we'll say China unleashed this deadly virus on the world.

1818
01:36:56,040 --> 01:36:58,599
Speaker 5: Do you think Republicans have done too much fingerpointing at

1819
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:01,879
Speaker 5: China and not enough You're pointing at our own government

1820
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 5: for what it may have unleashed on the world.

1821
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:08,400
Speaker 7: You know, I met with the Chinese at Tache.

1822
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:10,639
Speaker 13: The ambassador wasn't here, so I met with the second

1823
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:13,639
Speaker 13: in charge, and I tried to convince her of that

1824
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 13: that this doesn't have to be about just beating up China.

1825
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 13: We funded most of this, we were complicit in it.

1826
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:21,000
Speaker 13: So really the blame should go all around and shouldn't

1827
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 13: be just directed at China. And I'm not a big

1828
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 13: bashler of things of things China. I'm not for trade embargoes,

1829
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:30,679
Speaker 13: I'm not for banning all business with China. I'm for

1830
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:34,720
Speaker 13: not giving the research money and making sure that we

1831
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:37,080
Speaker 13: try to get answers from them.

1832
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:38,960
Speaker 7: But I think trade with.

1833
01:37:38,960 --> 01:37:41,639
Speaker 13: China has largely benefited the United States, and so I'm

1834
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 13: not for abolishing trade. So I do think the voices,

1835
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:48,439
Speaker 13: particularly in my caucus, are beating the drums daily for war,

1836
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:52,560
Speaker 13: and I think that left unabated, we will have problems

1837
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 13: with the rashness of the voices, particularly coming from my side,

1838
01:37:57,360 --> 01:37:58,519
Speaker 13: but really both sides.

1839
01:37:58,560 --> 01:37:59,960
Speaker 7: And so whenever I.

1840
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:02,679
Speaker 13: Here everybody wanting to engage in war, particularly with another

1841
01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 13: nuclear power, I've tried to become, hopefully a saner voice

1842
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:11,880
Speaker 13: for moving slowly diplomacy and not Even though I do

1843
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:14,439
Speaker 13: blame the virus on the coming out of the lab,

1844
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:17,080
Speaker 13: I also blame ourselves as well, and don't want to

1845
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 13: make it just that, oh, this is we're going to

1846
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:21,880
Speaker 13: rupture and have no relations with China, which I think

1847
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:22,639
Speaker 13: would be a mistake.

1848
01:38:23,320 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 4: And speaking of where, I wanted to ask you one

1849
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:28,000
Speaker 4: question about the war that's going on in Gaza right now.

1850
01:38:28,479 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 4: A couple of days after October seventh, you were on

1851
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:35,000
Speaker 4: Fox News and you said, let's let Israel do what

1852
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:36,719
Speaker 4: they need to do, which is to have a punishing

1853
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:39,640
Speaker 4: response the people in Gaza to say no more, we

1854
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,960
Speaker 4: are not going to let this happen. We've now seen

1855
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:47,000
Speaker 4: what that punishing response has been, a minimum of eight.

1856
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:48,240
Speaker 3: Thousand plus casualties.

1857
01:38:48,280 --> 01:38:51,599
Speaker 4: We've seen what appear to amount to war crimes from

1858
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 4: Israeli israel defense forces targeting the entire apartment buildings, entire blocks.

1859
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:01,840
Speaker 4: Do you stand by the original claim and where do

1860
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:03,840
Speaker 4: you what do you feel like should be done now?

1861
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:07,040
Speaker 4: Should there be a ceasefire at this point?

1862
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:09,520
Speaker 13: And you know, I think when you see the horrific

1863
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:13,320
Speaker 13: images of young people being mowed down with automatic weapons

1864
01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:17,760
Speaker 13: at a concert, images of whole families being killed, it's

1865
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:23,400
Speaker 13: hard not to be moved by that and understand Israel's

1866
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:25,840
Speaker 13: desire to want to respond and to try to wipe out,

1867
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:29,200
Speaker 13: particularly the military leadership of this. But you're right, they're

1868
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:32,439
Speaker 13: embedded in a civilian population and many civilians have died.

1869
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 13: And this is ultimately a judgment that Israel will have

1870
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:41,880
Speaker 13: will have to make whether or not the disruption of

1871
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 13: Hamas chain and command is now sufficient or whether they

1872
01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 13: go on. Because you are right, as more civilians die

1873
01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 13: in Gaza, not intentionally, but as they die in Gaza,

1874
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:55,880
Speaker 13: there's always the question, are ten new terrorists created for

1875
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,719
Speaker 13: every civilian that was killed. The same can be said

1876
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 13: of the drone attack throughout Africa, the drone attacks that

1877
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 13: killed a humanitarian worker after our soldiers died in Afghanistan

1878
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:07,160
Speaker 13: as we were leaving.

1879
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:08,400
Speaker 7: So there always is the.

1880
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 13: Question of blowback, and ultimately that decision has to be

1881
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 13: has to be made by Israel, and I think that

1882
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 13: the reporting on it will make a big difference. There

1883
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:21,400
Speaker 13: was a great article recently talking about this by Bonnie

1884
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 13: Christian that was in Reason magazine, and the way she

1885
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:29,760
Speaker 13: ended her article to me was just amazing, almost poetic

1886
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:33,320
Speaker 13: or from a novel, talking about how we descended to

1887
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:36,560
Speaker 13: moral chaos if we let ourselves be consumed by revenge,

1888
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:42,040
Speaker 13: either revenge of Palestinians civilians that were innocently killed, or

1889
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:45,080
Speaker 13: Israeli citizens that were innocently killed. If we let ourselves,

1890
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 13: we'll descend into sort of a moral chaos that really

1891
01:40:50,520 --> 01:40:54,760
Speaker 13: is ever escalating and never ending. And so there has

1892
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:56,519
Speaker 13: to come a time when we do talk about how

1893
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:58,760
Speaker 13: do you make things better in Gaza. But I'll tell

1894
01:40:58,760 --> 01:41:01,439
Speaker 13: you it's hard to in the midst of the death

1895
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:04,599
Speaker 13: and carnage. I was there in twenty thirteen and spoke

1896
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:08,080
Speaker 13: with net and Yahoo about trying to facilitate and allow

1897
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,559
Speaker 13: Gaza to open their own port, and I said, maybe

1898
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:13,480
Speaker 13: you do it like they did the Panama Canal.

1899
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 7: For so many years with joint security.

1900
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 13: By Israel and Gaza, but allow them to collect their

1901
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:20,920
Speaker 13: own duties and allow them to have some income coming

1902
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:23,600
Speaker 13: into a port. And his response to me, and this

1903
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:25,920
Speaker 13: wasn't after a massacre, this was in more of a

1904
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 13: relative time of peace.

1905
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:30,280
Speaker 7: He says, they have a port in Israel.

1906
01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:33,800
Speaker 13: And that kind of thinking won't get to a point

1907
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:36,559
Speaker 13: where we can have a peaceful arrangement.

1908
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 7: But on the other side, I mean, if.

1909
01:41:38,400 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 13: They were sitting here they say, how do you negotiate

1910
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:41,320
Speaker 13: with the country, it says we.

1911
01:41:41,320 --> 01:41:43,480
Speaker 7: Want to wipe you off the map, and they kill civilians.

1912
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 13: It's very, very difficult situation. But ultimately, if you want peace,

1913
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:51,640
Speaker 13: you want stability, and you want the end of a

1914
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:55,439
Speaker 13: lifetime of terrorism, there has to be something that allows

1915
01:41:55,479 --> 01:41:58,840
Speaker 13: the Gaza, those who live in Gaza to prosper and thrive.

1916
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:02,840
Speaker 13: But you understand the problem. If they're bombing Israel, it's

1917
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 13: going to be very hard as well.

1918
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:07,759
Speaker 5: Senator rand Paul, also the author of the new book deception,

1919
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 5: the great COVID cover up. Thank you so much for

1920
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:10,759
Speaker 5: your time this morning.

1921
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:11,880
Speaker 7: Thank you.

1922
01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 5: That does it for us today on this edition of Counterpoints.

1923
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:16,479
Speaker 5: It was a really interesting interview.

1924
01:42:16,600 --> 01:42:16,760
Speaker 7: Ryan.

1925
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:20,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he's I think he's right, and I

1926
01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:24,479
Speaker 4: think he needs to in the sense that you had

1927
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:26,360
Speaker 4: a lot ask a lot of questions about what the

1928
01:42:26,400 --> 01:42:29,400
Speaker 4: goal is here of this assault at this point and

1929
01:42:29,439 --> 01:42:32,800
Speaker 4: whether it's it's even going to kind of blow back

1930
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,479
Speaker 4: on Israel, like if that, if that's how people need

1931
01:42:35,479 --> 01:42:38,120
Speaker 4: to need to think about it to get themselves into

1932
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:40,000
Speaker 4: a place where they think about a ceasefire.

1933
01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:41,200
Speaker 3: I guess we'll take that.

1934
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:43,080
Speaker 4: The book, by the way, it's like five hundred and

1935
01:42:43,120 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 4: fifty pages or something, very long book.

1936
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:46,720
Speaker 5: It's a big book. And you know, we saw a

1937
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 5: lot of bluffs just on that point between Rand Paul

1938
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 5: and Lindsey Graham type Republicans during the Obama years. He

1939
01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:55,759
Speaker 5: was a really interesting voice during the Obama years actually,

1940
01:42:55,760 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 5: and he mentioned dronings just now, and so I actually wonder,

1941
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:01,960
Speaker 5: I think your question was really helpful. I actually wonder

1942
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:03,759
Speaker 5: to what extent we're going to see that going forward

1943
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:07,040
Speaker 5: during this administration. All right, Well, that does it for

1944
01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 5: US elections next Tuesday, We'll be here. We'll be helping

1945
01:43:10,920 --> 01:43:13,200
Speaker 5: break down the results on Wednesday, and make sure to

1946
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Speaker 5: subscribe to the premium version of Breaking Points to get

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Speaker 5: the full show, uninterrupted, straight to your inbox early before

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Speaker 5: everyone else gets to watch it. You can see the

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Speaker 5: full video on YouTube and Vimeo, so make sure to

1950
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Speaker 5: subscribe to Breaking Points Premium to support the great work

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Speaker 5: that Crystal and Sager do and to make shows like

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Speaker 5: this possible. We so appreciate you watching and

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Speaker 3: Hope you have a great week all right, See you

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Speaker 3: next week.