Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.
Speaker 2: Michael Lichin's back with us. Editor, writer, researcher based in Colorado,
Speaker 2: whose work has appeared in many spiritual publications. With a
Speaker 2: master's degree in divinity, Michael likes to explore the overlooked
Speaker 2: and strange parts of Catholic in Christian history, especially local
Speaker 2: Catholic history. He's the former editor of the Catholic Exchange.
Speaker 2: Has appeared on programs on Ewtnews, Our program and several
Speaker 2: other independent podcasts. His latest work is called The Weird
Speaker 2: Catholic Handbook. And of course, Michael, you're not knocking the religion,
Speaker 2: but you're talking about some strange stories. Welcome back.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me back, George. It's
Speaker 3: always a joy to join you.
Speaker 2: Have you been I've been very well.
Speaker 3: Thank you for asking. It's been a joy to have
Speaker 3: written this book and see some responses and I love
Speaker 3: sharing it.
Speaker 2: And there are many weird things happening, aren't there.
Speaker 3: I think life is always a little strange, So yes,
Speaker 3: there's always a few weird things happening in our ancestors
Speaker 3: saw it too.
Speaker 2: You look at demons, monsters, ghost saints. How did you
Speaker 2: go after these stories?
Speaker 3: Well, I've always had an interest in the odd and
Speaker 3: the unusual. I've been on the show before to talk
Speaker 3: about Father of Moore, who I also talk about in
Speaker 3: this book, and we I've always had a fascination with
Speaker 3: especially the supernatural or what some might call macabre, like
Speaker 3: bone churches and things like that. And I wanted to
Speaker 3: write a book that was a bit of a love
Speaker 3: letter to all these strange things when I was going
Speaker 3: through a difficult period in my life, and that's the
Speaker 3: result of this book.
Speaker 2: Do Saints have much of a history of fighting demons
Speaker 2: and monsters?
Speaker 3: They absolutely do. Of course demons. Saints have been fighting
Speaker 3: demons since the Apostolic times, many many famous saints. We
Speaker 3: have Saint Nicholas. Of course, we're coming up on the
Speaker 3: holiday season. He comes up December sixth and on the
Speaker 3: Eve of Saint Nicholas. You even see him teaming or
Speaker 3: fighting demons or monsters on the Eve of Saint Nicholas
Speaker 3: to remind people of the various deeds he did. And
Speaker 3: he was even also an exorcist. And then of course
Speaker 3: There's also Saint Patrick, who fought both monsters demonic birds
Speaker 3: at one point, had many even a few sea serpents.
Speaker 2: Why don't we hear any news stories of new saints, Michael,
Speaker 2: These are all older, older saints.
Speaker 3: Oh, they very much are. I do actually cover some
Speaker 3: newer saints. I talk about Padre Pio, who in many
Speaker 3: ways kind of sums up what it is to be
Speaker 3: that kind of strange mystical Catholicism. He was somebody who
Speaker 3: had many great miracles, including by location where he could
Speaker 3: be what I call him the saint who was in
Speaker 3: two places at once. He could be praying in his
Speaker 3: home on San Giovanni Rotundo, but meeting with his spiritual
Speaker 3: children in New York. And this was something many people
Speaker 3: witness so they still do happen, though I do write
Speaker 3: about a lot of old miracles.
Speaker 2: Mostly he had the stigmata of Jesus too, did he not?
Speaker 3: Did he did? He's probably one of the most besides
Speaker 3: Saint Francis of Assisi, the most famous person who received
Speaker 3: the stigmata, which for the listeners, that's when you have
Speaker 3: the five wounds of Christ bearing on your flesh.
Speaker 2: Truly remarkable. The demons that are mentioned throughout the church.
Speaker 2: What are they are? They are they devils? Are they
Speaker 2: humans who weren't bad? What are they?
Speaker 3: No, they are angels. They are the angels. And from
Speaker 3: the Catholic perspective, we have Saint Michael, the kind of
Speaker 3: prototypical monster fighter. He cast down Lucifer and a third
Speaker 3: of the angels from heaven down to the earth, and
Speaker 3: these became known as the demons. They have many of
Speaker 3: the same mobilities and the same potential as angels, but
Speaker 3: they've turned their will and now instead of serving God
Speaker 3: they say, non servio, I will not serve.
Speaker 2: These monsters and demons. How bad were they?
Speaker 3: Some were impressively bad. Several times saints were called in
Speaker 3: because no one could deal with the particular monster or
Speaker 3: the spirit. And so this was something Saint Nicholas was
Speaker 3: particularly known for. He, for example, rid a town of
Speaker 3: a demonically possessed tree by blessing it and taking an
Speaker 3: axe to it. But this tree had been demanding, had
Speaker 3: been like screeching at people, giving them nightmares. And then
Speaker 3: there's also Saint George, where we know from Christian tradition
Speaker 3: he fought a dragon, but before that dragon was fought
Speaker 3: by Saint George. It demanded tribute up to and including
Speaker 3: human sacrifice.
Speaker 2: These demons, where do they come from? What do they want?
Speaker 3: They seek? The best is probably Father More who said
Speaker 3: that they seek the destruction of human souls. They hate
Speaker 3: God and his creation, and they seek to ultimately destroy us,
Speaker 3: and that destruction is to take us away from God
Speaker 3: and his plans for us. And that's the simplest explanation.
Speaker 3: I can have. What they want can vary from time
Speaker 3: to time. And the worst part about them is their liars.
Speaker 3: Some exorcists have reported that demons will often even try
Speaker 3: to lie during the course of an exorcism.
Speaker 2: They don't stop. Now, the old saints, were they exorcists
Speaker 2: at the same time.
Speaker 3: Yes, As a matter of fact, it developed over time,
Speaker 3: but in the West it took a while before the
Speaker 3: exorcist was the official position it is now. Now every
Speaker 3: diocese is supposed to have an exorcist who answers to
Speaker 3: these calls. They're usually pretty secretive about it, or I
Speaker 3: should say discreet about everything, because this is a matter
Speaker 3: of privacy for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 3: There are many ancient saints, all of the apostles. I
Speaker 3: mentioned Saint Patrick, who not only was an exorcist for people,
Speaker 3: he also exercised the whole of Ireland from Propatrick where
Speaker 3: he did battle with these demonic birds that would even
Speaker 3: block out the sun.
Speaker 2: Well, the Catholic Church sure takes a strong position with
Speaker 2: exorcists and exorcis.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, oh yes. A lot of people think it's
Speaker 3: not still in existent, but it is still going on.
Speaker 3: There's the International Association of Exus in Rome where they
Speaker 3: train priests from all over the world, and there's still
Speaker 3: exorcists working in dioceses all across the world.
Speaker 2: Well with Michael Lichens's latest book is called The Weird
Speaker 2: Catholic Canbook. Tell us about the title, Michael.
Speaker 3: Sure, Well, I kind of hit the idea of weird
Speaker 3: from a couple of places, mostly just how people usually
Speaker 3: respond to these stories, you know, about saints fighting monsters,
Speaker 3: tussling with demonic birds and things like that. They go, oh,
Speaker 3: that's weird, that's strange. But there's also kind of a
Speaker 3: play on it because weird is from its English Old
Speaker 3: English root means fate, and it was also used by
Speaker 3: Christian monks in early England to talk about God's providence.
Speaker 3: So the times that God was intervening in people's lives.
Speaker 3: They would call it weird. So I'm kind of playing
Speaker 3: around with it as well that I want to show
Speaker 3: the strange and the unusual that might get misunderstood, but
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of beauty underneath.
Speaker 2: How much truth do you think there was to many
Speaker 2: of these stories that are in your book.
Speaker 3: I go back and forth on that. I'm a little
Speaker 3: more skeptical than some might be, but I'd like to
Speaker 3: say that our ancestors took these that to be true.
Speaker 3: But they also understood that there was a metaphor a
Speaker 3: meaning behind it, much like Christ's parables. They understood that
Speaker 3: when Saint George's defeating a dragon, it's like anytime Saint
Speaker 3: Michael defeating a dragon and things like that. It's symbolizing
Speaker 3: God's power coming in and taking over disorder and moving
Speaker 3: into grace and peace. And so they understood it both
Speaker 3: in a literal and a metaphorical sense, and so I
Speaker 3: tried to think of it in both. Two.
Speaker 2: Give us a story or two from the book.
Speaker 3: Sure well, let me go ahead and talk about Saint Patrick,
Speaker 3: because he was we'll have a little bit of darkness time.
Speaker 3: But they will also come up soon we all celebrate it.
Speaker 3: There is this wonderful story on pro Patrick that I mentioned.
Speaker 3: He went up there during lint, and this was around
Speaker 3: four forty one AD. When he got to the top
Speaker 3: of it, he wanted a fast pray dependence and he
Speaker 3: was suddenly assaulted by birds, and not just any birds.
Speaker 3: These were blackbirds that also had human speech, and so
Speaker 3: they would mock him and called out blasphemies to him,
Speaker 3: and this they did constantly. He would throw his bishop's
Speaker 3: crosier at them, they would puff into smoke and disappear.
Speaker 3: He'd fling holy water at them. They dispersed, but come
Speaker 3: right back. And it took him a long while, but
Speaker 3: finally he realized he had a sacred bell, and he
Speaker 3: raised up that sacred bell reined out three times. Bells
Speaker 3: are really important in Christianity. This was a calling to prayer,
Speaker 3: This was a calling to really take back what was
Speaker 3: to be an assaulted him on. And so with the
Speaker 3: ringing of the bell, the birds descended, the sun came out,
Speaker 3: and suddenly there were doves that were singing God's praise.
Speaker 3: And it's one of the most interesting stories. You can
Speaker 3: still see that bell, by the way, in the National
Speaker 3: Museum in Dublin.
Speaker 2: How do you become a saint in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3: Well, the saint is anyone who has attained friendship with
Speaker 3: God and that's ultimately found when you're joined Him in
Speaker 3: heaven and perfect unity with Him. And so there's a
Speaker 3: number of saints we don't know, and they could be anyone.
Speaker 3: They could be you or me, anyone listening. I'm sure
Speaker 3: there's plenty of saints out there. I'm still a long
Speaker 3: ways off, but it could be any one of us. However,
Speaker 3: we know saints in the Catholic Church. The ones who
Speaker 3: are canonized, they get a church named after them, have pilgrimages,
Speaker 3: things like that. It's usually when there are three verified
Speaker 3: miracles posts mortem that can be attributed to the prayers
Speaker 3: of that saint.
Speaker 2: Tell us Michael about the chapter on Christian werewolves.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I love that section. There's a couple of
Speaker 3: interesting werewolf stories. Of course, throughout history we've been telling
Speaker 3: these kind of stories forever of people get turned into animals,
Speaker 3: particularly wolves. There's some versions. It's not quite a were wolf,
Speaker 3: it's dog headedness of Saint Christopher. He often depicted as
Speaker 3: a giant in the West, but in some places, particularly
Speaker 3: an icon in Mount Athos and a few Russian icons.
Speaker 3: He's depicted as having the head of a dog, and
Speaker 3: no one's quite sure why this is, but it's recorded
Speaker 3: that he had this head of the dog and that
Speaker 3: he was soon baptized accepted his Christian name Christopher, meaning
Speaker 3: Christ Bear, and depending on the story, he either helped
Speaker 3: Christ through wilderness or across the river. And then there
Speaker 3: is also the werewolves of Ossory, which are some Irish
Speaker 3: werewolves from the tenth century and they are fascinating story.
Speaker 3: It's a fascinating story of a priest who is traveling
Speaker 3: a route and he encounters wolves who can speak, and
Speaker 3: not only speak, they understand the Christian faith. And when
Speaker 3: he asked these wolves, you know, how are you able
Speaker 3: to speak? Wolves can't speak? They answered that they were
Speaker 3: transformed into wolves every seven years by a curse after
Speaker 3: they had barkereses at a saint and abbot, and thus
Speaker 3: they were doomed to do this every seven years take
Speaker 3: the shape of wolves. But they asked the priest for blessings,
Speaker 3: which he was able to do. And the wolves are
Speaker 3: still found in manuscripts, especially illuminated manuscripts, and it's just
Speaker 3: one of those interesting stories from the Middle Ages.
Speaker 2: In terms of the saints, how many saints are they're
Speaker 2: out there, Michael, We don't know.
Speaker 3: Officially, we don't know. We number somewhere like thirty nine
Speaker 3: thousand in our visual calendar, but there's many, many more.
Speaker 3: We just don't know.
Speaker 2: How do they get certified.
Speaker 3: They get certified initially by your local bishop who will
Speaker 3: certify various things, including the miracle, and that gets passed
Speaker 3: down to Rome, who ultimately have to decide it. They
Speaker 3: will often investigate any supposed miracles. They fully investigate the
Speaker 3: person's life, interview anyone who's surviving who might have known them,
Speaker 3: read any biographies that are available, and after a thorough investigation,
Speaker 3: if the miracles are found to be done, they're first
Speaker 3: declared blessed and then they've become after a few years,
Speaker 3: saints officially, and that's where you get the you know,
Speaker 3: Saint Joseph, Saint Mary and things like that.
Speaker 2: Do we have any living saints?
Speaker 3: Now, yes, we absolutely do. I have no clue. No,
Speaker 3: I think I know a few living saints. I can't.
Speaker 3: I have to admit I know a few living saints,
Speaker 3: especially among the hard working priests here in Denver. But
Speaker 3: I think we absolutely have saints hopefully listening to the show.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm a long long ways off. I
Speaker 3: have a lot to fix in my life. But I
Speaker 3: have no doubt that there's a few people out there
Speaker 3: who are on the path of sainthood.
Speaker 2: Maybe they'll call into the program tonight, please, It's amazing.
Speaker 2: I mean, how come we don't hear too much about
Speaker 2: saints today as opposed to those from the past.
Speaker 3: That's a good question.
Speaker 2: And I think you would think they'd be heroes today they.
Speaker 3: You know, And I think they are absolutely out there,
Speaker 3: especially recent ones. For example, the Catholic Church is going
Speaker 3: to canonize the first millennial saint, the first saint from
Speaker 3: a millennial generation, Carlo Acudas, and while not many people
Speaker 3: outside of Italy have heard of him, recently, a lot
Speaker 3: more people have heard of him, especially once he gets
Speaker 3: declared a saint. And this is someone he would be
Speaker 3: if you were alive. He'd be about seven years younger
Speaker 3: than me. And that's just like, I think we are
Speaker 3: still saints, and I think we'll still see, especially in
Speaker 3: the world struggles. Saints tend to come when we're needing
Speaker 3: them the most.
Speaker 2: Michael tell Us why your book concentrates a lot on exorcisms.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's an important part of the Catholic
Speaker 3: Church that doesn't get a lot of focus. As we
Speaker 3: talked about, many saints, especially the popular Saints, were exorcists.
Speaker 3: It was part of their ministry. It was one of
Speaker 3: Christ's miracles, and it was a blessing he passed on
Speaker 3: to his apostles and so on, and so I think
Speaker 3: it's a fascinating ministry that I've enjoyed reading and learning
Speaker 3: about over the years, and all my work on bout
Speaker 3: Father and Moore and other exorcists, and so when I
Speaker 3: was writing this book, I definitely wanted to include some
Speaker 3: stories not only from their work and some of the
Speaker 3: more famous exorcists out there, but I also included their
Speaker 3: learning and saints for protection against evil.
Speaker 2: Did you see the Russell Crowe movie of him playing
Speaker 2: the part of Gabriela morth I did.
Speaker 3: I really liked how he did it. He got some
Speaker 3: parts of a morph because the mort had such an
Speaker 3: interesting dichotomy between he was a jokester, but he could
Speaker 3: also be very solemn and serious, and Russel grow is
Speaker 3: just so good at that.
Speaker 2: He's in touch with me every once in a while,
Speaker 2: and I told him he did a great job of that.
Speaker 2: He was thrilled to death.
Speaker 3: Oh that's good. He did a fantastic job.
Speaker 2: The Pope Sexorcist. Mm hm. Did you ever come across
Speaker 2: any work by the late Father Malachi Martin?
Speaker 3: I have. I first read him actually when I was
Speaker 3: like twenty one, but it was The Hossage to the Devil,
Speaker 3: and I've read a few things by him since. But
Speaker 3: he is a very interesting figure in the history of
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2: What about ghost stories? How prevalent are they in Catholic history?
Speaker 3: Well, as we know, ghost stories are kind of just
Speaker 3: part of the human experience. It seems like we've been
Speaker 3: telling them since civilization. There's a great lecture by someone
Speaker 3: from the British Museum on YouTube who talks about Assyrian
Speaker 3: ghost stories. So we've been telling them forever, and sure enough,
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church does, and we have a long history
Speaker 3: going back basically to the very early stages of Christianity
Speaker 3: with figures like Saint Augustine or Pope Gregory the Great
Speaker 3: and then Thomas Aquinas in the Middle Ages also talked
Speaker 3: about ghosts, and we also have some folklore from the
Speaker 3: Middle Ages that's preserved, telling us just kind of the
Speaker 3: roots of our modern ghost stories, but also a very
Speaker 3: Catholic ghost story, and that they affirm the traditions and
Speaker 3: faith of the Catholic Church.
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