1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you production of I Heart Radio. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: So Annie, I know last year one of your favorite 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: movies hoppen this to be Knives Out? Am I correct? 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: So what is it about movies like that that you love? 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: I I love that movie because it was really fun. 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: I felt like everyone was having fun, Like the actors 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: are having fun and the writers are having fun. It 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: was very almost character churish, but still believable. So it 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: almost felt like Clue level in terms of the board game, 11 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: like the way the design was and the way the 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: characters where that outfits and everyone had a motive. I 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: love guessing like, oh could it have been you? Or 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: it was you? Um, And then you got Daniel Craig's accent, 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: which was so fun. And then I thought it was 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: a new take because I'm somebody And as we talked 17 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: about you know what actually does extrovert versus introvert mean, 18 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 1: I've come to realize, like for me, that new thing 19 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: is really important. So I felt like Knives Out was 20 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: a really new take, fresh take for me when it 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: came to that genre of like the twist in the 22 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: middle that you didn't want this person to get caught. 23 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: And then you know another twist that that's it wasn't 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: even that in the first place. But then also that 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: it's kind and sweet and it kind of revolves around kindness, 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: which is a big, big thing for me. Something that 27 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: I love is when these characters are are kind and 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: things happened to them that are decent turns out okay, right, 29 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, it's definitely one of those new takes, 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: as you said, Ana who Done It? Which I feel 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: like everybody loves that. I know. That's why my grandparents 32 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: love things like Perry Mason those Coombo shows, because it's 33 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: all about the who done it? And I think that's 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: a big part of the genre in general. And yeah, 35 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: this one that's kind of like as you were talking 36 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: about Clue, you're talking about the game, but in the 37 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: movie it's a fun take. It's a it's a hysterical like, 38 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, is a mystery what is this? And yeah, 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: none of these people are likable, like they literally make 40 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: it that way, where nobody's really likable or overly likable, 41 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: like it's one of the two. It's kind of like 42 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: you all have a motive, but at the same time. 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm asking all of this because one of 44 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: the big things about these types of movies are the 45 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: fact that it is based on crime. And we're going 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: to get into it a little bit later about why 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: we may actually like true crime, and I say we 48 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: less more more so than me, I guess than you. 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: You don't love the true crime stuff as much as like, yeah, mysteries, 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: but a part of the true crime indulgence, I guess 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: it's the best word, is that you kind of it 52 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: kind of is a mystery that is unfolding and you're 53 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure it out as well, especially if you 54 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on. Unfortunately, because it is real, 55 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: it takes a really dark turn at the very beginning 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: of the tales, I guess, and that makes it completely different. 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about today. And again, 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: true crime has been around for a very long time 59 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: from the beginning, I really want to say, and though 60 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: the media and medium has changed quite a bit, true 61 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: crime has changed and adapted right along with it. Of course, 62 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: if you've listened to our podcast for a while, you 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: may have heard our past host talk about women's love 64 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: for true crime and if you haven't, you should go 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: and check it out. But we thought we could do 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: a quick revisit of our love for this and why 67 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: it's not slowed down at all. But first let's do 68 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: a quick review of the history of true crime. Yes, 69 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: so let's start at what some would call the beginning. 70 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,839 Speaker 1: But as we continue to like pound upon Oh, also 71 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: see our truth Founds episode um in our Female first episodes. 72 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: History is always a bit tricky, and though we're talking 73 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,839 Speaker 1: about what's first recorded, it doesn't necessarily mean that it 74 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: is the actual first. It's just the first that we 75 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: we know of. So according to definition dot com, true 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: crime is literally just quote based on our describing an 77 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: actual crime. And to go to what we are going 78 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: to look at specifically for this episode, we're going to 79 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: use the definition dot net version, which is quote a nonfiction, 80 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: literary and film genre in which the author examines an 81 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: actual crime and details the actions of real people. The 82 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: genre has been described as entertainment and as factional, a 83 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: mix of fact and fiction. So yeah, not necessarily as 84 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: bad as the based on but they do take a 85 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: little bit of narrative and when we come to see 86 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: these documentaries, So that's why the blend sometimes, so what 87 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: is the history behind the telling a true crime and 88 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: of course absorbing all things true crime again according to 89 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: written records, So what we have for ourselves of what 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: we've seen and not necessarily written in stone, so we 91 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: may find out more stuff later like actually up, but 92 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: for now, one of the things that we know is 93 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: that one of the first series of documentations of crime 94 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: came from China, written in sixteen seventeen, with a book 95 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: a title Book of Swindles, and yeah, you can go 96 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: find more information, but apparently it's like overall context of 97 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: people taking things or being swindled and manipulated. So there's that. 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: And within the sixteenth and eighteen centuries we see the 99 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: pop up of street literature and Europe that featured crime 100 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: stories and even ballads to talk about a perpetrator's motivation, 101 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: so poems about it, weirdly enough, and this would eventually 102 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: become the penny press that was accessible for everyone, because 103 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: before it was only four upper middle class who could 104 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: afford getting these stories. But it became such a big 105 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: hit they were able to be like, you know what, 106 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: everybody should read these. Of course, this led to the 107 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: more modern style of true crime I'm in the late 108 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, which was written by William Roughhead, a Scottish 109 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: lawyer who wrote about a murder trial he attended. But 110 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: To Crime became a more popular in the US in 111 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and was written by Edmund Pearson, which 112 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: then became a full on true crime novel, with credit 113 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: given to Truman Capote, who wrote In Cold Blood, which 114 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: started this new trend and was even adapted again not 115 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: too long ago with the movie Capote and the interest 116 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: quickly grew into TV and viewing, with shows like The 117 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: Thin Blue Line, which included re enactments of the actual stories, 118 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: and specialized news broadcast that capitalized on interviews like the 119 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: Milwaukee serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer interviews with him or about him. 120 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: And now I've grown even more so, including through podcast, 121 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: which is one of the fastest growing medias, and through 122 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: social media like TikTok and Facebook, right and and you 123 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: and I used to talk about how he would get 124 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: to watch the little clips of the mysteries, and some 125 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: of them maybe horror, like the top ten most Horrible 126 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: or whatever wh I got because I do like true crime. 127 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: I would get snippets of true crime stuff, so it 128 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: would give me like a three minute summary and then 129 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: of course I would be like wait, I need more 130 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: and start like so they get you with those little 131 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: small clips. So you know, So who exactly is fueling 132 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: this true crime growth that's not decreasing at all? And 133 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: we talked about it in our Women who Love serial 134 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: Killers as well as in the previous podcast about true crime. 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: Women make up the larger part of the true crime 136 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: audience and most of them, if not all, agree that 137 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: women make up at least seventy five percent of the 138 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: audience and several say actually eighty five percent of the 139 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: audience who consumed this true crime genre specifically when it 140 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: comes to podcasts. But it's not just that they're consuming it, 141 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: but it's also that we are the ones creating it 142 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: as well. With a continued growth of people's true crime obsession, 143 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: we see women's spearheading this growth between podcasts that continue 144 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: to pick the just of the ever growing listenerships and 145 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: the new documentaries that often focus on the citizen of 146 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: details and new details that I've never been seen before. 147 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: Women are the ones that's voicing, writing, and producing this 148 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: new material which my friends are big fans of and 149 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: they'll always give me. Today, I got a text from 150 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: a friend about one of her true crime podcasts that 151 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: she loves, and I was like, alright, cool, cool, cool um. 152 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: In one report, they show that within the top twenty 153 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: podcast in the country, the country being the US in 154 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: this case, at least eleven of them were true crime 155 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: and out of that at least seven were hosted by women. 156 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,359 Speaker 1: So I was wrong in my assessment and truth hounds, 157 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: I guess the most famous ones that I think of 158 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: our right other than the one big one which I 159 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: know we're going to talk about. And though the amount 160 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: of women and men authors for books are about the same, 161 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: it is women who dominate true crime podcast even to 162 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: the point is brought in new ways of consuming or 163 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: crossing over, including makeup tutorials, which we will talk about 164 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 1: more in a little bit. But six are hard to 165 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: come by for consumers and creators. What we do know 166 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: is that it isn't going away anytime soon, right, And 167 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure why the statistics are so hard 168 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: to get to because people are trying to figure it 169 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: out themselves. Many want to know, but that is the reason. 170 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: I think they want to know the why, and not 171 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: necessarily the numbers, just saying and since we are talking 172 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: about women and true crime, and we wanted to take 173 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: a minute to talk about some of the key women 174 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: who have pushed this growth or even started it. And 175 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna start with and I don't know German, I'm 176 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: gonna try my best, so don't yell at me, Angel 177 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: Christine vest Fallon, how I do? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. 178 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: We couldn't start this conversation without talking about one of 179 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: the first women writers of true crime that we know of. 180 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: Once again, putting this every time, We'll say it every time. 181 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: So Angel Christine Vestfellin was a German writer who was 182 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: not afraid to break through all the rules and all 183 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: the ceilings that she could. And as we talked about 184 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: in our episodes on women or writers, many felt that 185 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,119 Speaker 1: women should stick to certain types of writing and considered 186 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: it vulgar when they stepped outside of that preferred realm, 187 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: as in fact of as Fellon wrote her true crime story, 188 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: or rather a drama that depicted the Charlotte Corday story 189 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: of stabbing Jean Paul Murat, and we talked about them 190 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: when we were talking about female assassins is. She was 191 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: one of them. And once it was discovered that was 192 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: written by her, because she was going on to pen 193 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: names and she'd been writing different things trying to pretend 194 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: to be a man. But it soon came out that, oh, 195 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: she's not a man. And when the men found out, 196 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: like Johann Wolf Game one Goat, they were not pleased. 197 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: He even stated, quote, the worthy author of this tragedy 198 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: of Charlotte Corday would have better spent her time knitting 199 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: a warm underskirt for the winter than meddling this drama. 200 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: So he was very displeased and was like, stick to 201 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: your underwear woman, which is like what. But of course 202 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: that didn't stop her, and she made a really big 203 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: impact and continued on at a writer and won several awards. 204 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: So him right, yes, what but winter under skirt? I 205 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: don't know about that. And looking in the world of 206 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: us true crime, which is a chunk of the content 207 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: we couldn't skip over, and Rule one of the first 208 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: noted women in the true crime genre. Rule is best 209 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: known for her work on serial killer Ted Bundy titled 210 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: The Stranger Beside Me, and she was also known as 211 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: being a friend of Bundy who worked with her for 212 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: her book, but her career, much like ves Flin, was 213 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: met with skepticism and disdain, even though her own life 214 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: experiences included working in law enforcement and writing. She penned 215 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: much of her work under the pen name of Andy 216 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: Stack for publications and True Detective, where she was told 217 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: that writing true crime was quote no job for a woman. 218 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: But she continued and published many true crime novels and books. Right, 219 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: So she was really big. And when we say that 220 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: she was friends with Bundy, they actually had met in 221 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: college before he was free, so she knew him. And 222 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: so after this fact, she went and interviews and went 223 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: and visited him and got a lot of his story. 224 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, to say she had a firsthand knowledge. Yeah, 225 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: and it keeps growing in different mediums including uh, documentaries 226 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: like Making a Murder. Did you ever watch the Sandy 227 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: I don't think you did, right, Yeah, of course I 228 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: ate it up. So it's a ten part series on 229 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: Netflix which was created by Mariar Demos and Laura Richiardi. 230 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: So the documentary took ten years to make and it 231 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: started in two thousand five, and after its actual initial 232 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: release later in eighteen, I believe it had at least 233 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: over nineteen million views in the first five weeks, and 234 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: not surprisingly this prompted petitions of new trials, new cases, 235 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: and outcries of deeper look at the cases and even 236 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: like when after all of the prosecutors in law enforcement, 237 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: it was not pretty um. And of course it also 238 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: came out with a part two which kind of does 239 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: where are they now? Kind of situation with a very 240 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: inconclusive end because I don't know if there's been a 241 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: second trial. I need to go back and look, but 242 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: it's been a minute that I haven't heard anything, and 243 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: I don't think there's really been new information since then, 244 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: just a lot of implications. Documentary is not the only 245 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: one we've moved on to our world yes of podcasts, 246 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: so Cereal is often credited as one of the first 247 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: true crime podcast although Criminal Generation, Why, and Sword and 248 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: Skill all proceeded that. I think it's just Serial got 249 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: this really big popularity, and it got it started in 250 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: the beginning, yeah, of this huge podcast genre. Of course, 251 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: all of those other three are very popular still so 252 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: that it's not going any where. None of these are 253 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: going anywhere. But Seial is credited in its innovative way 254 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: of investigative storytelling, originating as a spinoff of This American Life, 255 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: which is part of the NPR series Reporter Sarah Kanig 256 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: opened up a whole new world of long form audio 257 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: story that allowed for the audience to look beyond just 258 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: news clips and sad stories to becoming what is now 259 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: known as armchair detectives, with narratives of good and bad 260 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: guys and possible miscarriage of justice. And it's still talked 261 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: about today and criticized. There's a lot of criticism and 262 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: arguments based on serial and what they brought out. As 263 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: one true crime writer and podcaster stated, quote, Cereal is 264 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: the most important because it went viral. It got into 265 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist and introduced many people to podcasts and got 266 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: them hooked. Yeah. I want to say that it's one 267 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: of the big beginnings of podcasts. Yeah. I agree, it's 268 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: one of the first. I listen too, because everyone was 269 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: listening to it, everyone was talking about it, and it 270 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: was It's interesting because it brought in a lot of 271 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: voices and they did like a lot of things that 272 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: now seem kind of silly just because it's been parodied. 273 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: It's not silly at all, but because so many podcasts 274 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: kind of emulated this formula, of you know, I did 275 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: the drive and I timed how long it took and 276 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: all that stuff, and like it did bring out all 277 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: these armchair detectives. And I know people still talking about 278 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: that first season of Cereal today, like the real people involved, 279 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: and that is something in yeah, my YouTube videos I 280 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: watched where they're like this this what's this mystery? And 281 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: it's inexplicable and then people are trying to figure out 282 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: they want to know. And I do think Cereal was 283 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: a big part of that because it would always end. 284 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: I remember the music so well. It would always end 285 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: and it'd be like, well, that's the question for the 286 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: next episode, and he'd be like, did so, well they did. So. 287 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: If we let's talk about this question of why, which 288 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: we've kind of been discussing some reasons of why do 289 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: people and especially women love true crime. If we're looking 290 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: at the depth of true crime and how long it's 291 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: been around, it's not surprising that women were ready to 292 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: fall in love with every form of true crime, especially podcast. 293 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: But again why. There are so many reasons people give 294 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: to answer that question to the reason why women find 295 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: it so enticing, but the research is fairly slim. Not 296 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: for the lack of trying, as we mentioned, but more 297 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: so that getting information hasn't been really that easy. Pew 298 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: Research and others have used the typical methods of questionnaires 299 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: and surveys, but with the fact that listeners vary, as 300 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: well as the fact some may not even know outside 301 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: of the you know, I just like it, Um, maybe 302 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: I've never really asked the question. They just like it. 303 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: The reasons are everywhere right, and there is a lot 304 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: of stuff that people talk about with different reasons why 305 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: they like it. Well, I saw I've seen a lot 306 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: of personal blogs about their explanations or people trying to 307 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: find out and so they talk about the ones that 308 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: resonate with them, and many vary. But again, yeah, these 309 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: are the common ones, I would say, and one is 310 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: one of the big ones. To learn how not to 311 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: be a victim? Say, I do not want to be 312 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: caught up in this. How do I stop this from happening? Um? 313 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: And many women state they want to learn what went 314 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: wrong and how not to be that victim. One report 315 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: states women quote have claimed that consuming true crime content 316 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: led to conscious change and behavior to ensure safety, for instance, 317 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: double checking door locks and carrying maize and pepper sprays, which, yeah, 318 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: these sales went up the more they like we see 319 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: the consuming of um and then that women are preparing 320 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: to know how to get out of dangerous situations like 321 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: kidnapping by learning defensive tactics from the past crimes. Yeah, 322 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: I'm very aware about trunk safety, how to kick out lights. 323 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: I have like those things ready to go, how to 324 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: hold your keys. Of course, this is also just being 325 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: in general and knowing that dangers await them, and by 326 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: consuming such horrific stories it might help them to analyze 327 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: and be aware of the psychopaths out in the world. 328 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: It's a way of learning motives and learning psychological factors 329 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: to avoid. So kind of that's just that, Oh, this 330 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: is the type of guy. Oh yeah, definitely the white 331 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: dude who seems too clean, a little bit off. Don't go, 332 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: don't go right, And that reminds me of what we 333 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: talked about in our kind of Science of Fear episode. 334 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: And why do women like horror movies where it's a 335 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: similar thing. It's like you're learning in your mind what 336 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: to avoid. And I like there was a comparison from 337 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: one paper I read that was it's like gossip in 338 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: a way, like gossip functions in a similar manner where 339 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, I'm learning based on this gossip that 340 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: I will get gossiped about if I do this thing. 341 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, horror and true crime falls under that 342 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: as well, where we do feel like, Okay, I am 343 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: learning from this what not to do or what to 344 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: do um to keep myself safe. And unfortunately, a lot 345 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: of times the victims and needs are women. I that's 346 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: from my anecdotal understanding, but I think it is true 347 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: just from crime statistics we have. Yeah, yeah, Well, honestly, 348 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: the facts of the matter, women are very unlikely to 349 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: be killed, Like we talked about the fact that how 350 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: how they will be killed and who will kill them, 351 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: and typically it's the men who die violently essentially, that's 352 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: why all the statistics have shown. So it's kind of surprising, 353 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: but these fears come out of the way women die. 354 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: So as we talked about whether it's horrific abuse or 355 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: all of those things, rape as a big fear factor 356 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: in most of our conversations, and we've seen this, but 357 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: that's also that intrigue of when we see crimes against 358 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: women is usually typically horrifically violent and therefore publicized. In 359 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: such a bigger manner than just drive by shootings and 360 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: or yeah, accidental deaths like car accidents and stuff. It 361 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: is typically that level. So the statistics show that men 362 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: should be more afraid of being killed, but they're not, 363 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: oddly enough. But again, like I said, the violence in 364 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: crime against women and then the violence when it comes 365 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: to serial killers who they've picked for victims, which are 366 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: the ones that are more publicized and highlighted, is what 367 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: causes that fear. And we'll talk about it in the 368 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: second right now, But watching those horrific stories, yeah, and 369 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: that can kind of go to morbid fascination. And I 370 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: think probably everyone listening this can relate to if something 371 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: happens in your city that catches a bunch of attention, 372 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're getting um text and from 373 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: everybody that's like, do you have pepper stray, don't wear 374 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: your hair in a pony saale, don't do this at 375 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: a certain time, And it kind of it makes sense, 376 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: but it's also like, compared to the ways that I 377 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: could die, it's just that it's so horrifying and it 378 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: catches the attention we did our women in Revenge episode, 379 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: I read a really beautiful essay, painful essay written by 380 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: somebody whose family I believe had been murdered, and she 381 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: was just saying like she hated it, but she couldn't 382 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: deny it was intimate, like that was it felt like 383 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: this was such a an act, like we're forever impacted 384 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: my life, this person forever impacted and changed my life, 385 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: and I can't. It's really hard to separate yourself out 386 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: from that, and it's hard to not feel like you 387 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: were chosen or something, which we've talked about that with 388 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: victim blaming, and that's just part of human nature. Another 389 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: reason people give for their love of true crime and 390 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: women in specific is warriorism. Um. And yeah, that's just 391 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: again human nature, just kind of being nosy. That's like 392 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 1: a really big morbid bit of like like oh, I 393 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: don't want to say this, but I'm very intrigued and 394 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: I need to know what happened, right, um And yeah, 395 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: that's it's obviously oversimplifying things, but yes, for both men 396 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: and women alike, there is that sort of train wreck 397 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: factor that is deeply rooted in so many of us, 398 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: just needing to know and not being able to turn away, 399 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: like I gotta know how this ends, or like you 400 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: you can't, it's almost like a freeze thing. Or you're 401 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: just like I can't. I can't. If you and you 402 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: get a small tipita that information, you're like, wait, wait, 403 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: well I need to know more, and for me, like 404 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: I will watch something and I need to know where 405 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: they are today? Are they in prison? Are they? If 406 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: it doesn't conclusively it just ends with an arrest and 407 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: maybe a trial, I need to know, well, are they 408 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: rotting in jail or what has happening? Are they sorry? 409 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: Have they admitted it? Like there's a mini of moments 410 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: where I have to like finish it out of course, yes, 411 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: without watching and inabilities just to turn away. There is 412 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: that level of fear that's what intrigues people. Yes, fear 413 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: of the unknown or the possibility of having something violent 414 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: happened in your life. And I actually just had a 415 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: really horrible dream and I told you about it a 416 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: little earlier, and I'm not gonna go into it, maybe 417 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: because we are researching this and so it's in my brain, 418 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 1: but yes, stuff that just made me wake up and 419 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: it feels so nauseous and shaken by it, like it's 420 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: the worst thing that I can think of possibly happening, 421 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: but not because of anything other than my dog was involved, 422 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: I will say that, and so my dog is very 423 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: precious to me, and it was horrifying some of the 424 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: things that just came into my head. But it is 425 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: that fear. Some research state that is out of fear 426 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: that women listen and want to know about the situation again, 427 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: which could relate to how to care for themselves, but 428 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: that it's also a way of getting second hand relief 429 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: and not being a victim. So being able to say 430 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: that's I've never experienced that makes you feel okay, And 431 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of that level of So. We 432 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: just had recently had a really horrific death in Atlanta 433 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: that happened in one of our more popular parks, and 434 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: I don't know where the case is gone, but it 435 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: definitely brought out all of the oh my god, there's 436 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: a serial killer text and notes and message boards like 437 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: it's it's been happening. And the first thing I thought 438 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: was because I believe the woman was white. I was like, 439 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm not a white woman. I'm good. Like there was 440 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: this little fear like moment of relief, which I shouldn't be. 441 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,239 Speaker 1: There should not be, but knowing like the history of 442 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: what serial killers their patterns are. You know that there's 443 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: like race is a big factor typically typically in all 444 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: of this, and that's that part, but still want to know. 445 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: But there is that second hand of relief, which is 446 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: awful because someone died and this needs to be told 447 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: and we need to get justice for this woman. But 448 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: there is not fear, like a moment of like glad 449 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: that didn't happen to me. Yeah, you know, yeah, And 450 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: we talked about that a little also in our Fear 451 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: episode Why women Love Horrmonies, which is something that's just 452 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: fast me And I've thought about this idea of you stress, 453 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: which is a type of stress that is like good, 454 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: but I think for a lot of women because we 455 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: do live with these fears. We do live with when 456 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: I go outside, you know, I'm thinking about, um, the 457 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: people on the street you did, where where are my keys? 458 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: And what are my exits and all those things. Um, 459 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: So I think there is something about watching something and 460 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: being able to relate but also be separate and like 461 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: kind of release some of that stress that's just built 462 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: up in you and you don't realize how much is 463 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: built up in you. I do think that's part of 464 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: it of like you were already feeling these nerves around 465 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: this and the fear around this every day, and to 466 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: watch something is like a way to release all of 467 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: that built upright fear, and it'll it will still build 468 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: up again, but it's like kind of just a method 469 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: of not ignoring it, but also being able to be 470 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: distant from it and experience it and release some of it. Right. 471 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: I think another reason, uh sympathy for the devil, and 472 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: this would be more related to our past episode on 473 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: women who love serial killers um, and that some people 474 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: are women are intrigued by the perpetrators background and how 475 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: they were created, the origin story. Um. I think that's 476 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,239 Speaker 1: also part of few nature is how could someone do this? 477 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: Like asking that question? And there are some that believe 478 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: because women are thought to have more empathy than men, 479 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: that women connect on a different level, especially for the victim, 480 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: which makes the stories more relevant and personal for women 481 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: right in a lot of the way, they wanted to 482 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: see that that justice has happened, so instead of having 483 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: like I think Cereal was a little different because it 484 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: questioned things, but there was so many other true crime 485 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: like things with Ted Bundy and things with the Nice Stalker, 486 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: there was endings. There, there was a conclusive this happened. 487 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: So to have that is also a different level like 488 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: oh my god, thank goodness, we are so glad these 489 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: victims you know, had justice or hopefully they do get justice. 490 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: But that's also part of that um and yeah, and 491 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: with that again, the puzzles or the detective work behind 492 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: the series. Some experts state it involves a level of 493 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: working out the mystery, stating quote, women like to untangle things. 494 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: They think a lot. I'm not saying women don't, but 495 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: they like to work things out often think about things 496 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: quite deeply. And obviously there's a big aspect of that 497 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: and true crime, especially in unsolved cold case type documentaries 498 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: or podcasts. So there's a lot to think about and 499 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: to talk about, right And I know that's what a 500 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: lot of the different podcasts hosts are able to do, like, 501 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: especially when there's more than one host and they kind 502 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: of work it out together and talk it through with 503 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: each other. There's a lot of that trying to unravel 504 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: this mystery. And for me, yeah, there's a lot of 505 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: income fleet and unsolved cases, and I like going down 506 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: that rabbit hole as well. I will start researching individuals. 507 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: Of course, I don't go down like journalists, investigative journalists 508 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: who create who are able to unsolve mysteries themselves and 509 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: do the I'm gonna drive here to hear I'm not 510 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: that guy hard, but I will start looking and be like, 511 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: I wonder what this person was doing. I wonder what 512 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: that person is up to now, Like there's a lot 513 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: of questions that I'm like, I wonder if I can 514 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: And I'm also the same person in horror movies, like 515 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: the whole who done it? Or who's the killer type 516 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: of thing that I'm like, I know so and so 517 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: or this is the twist. Of course, this is the twist. 518 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm that person feeling like I need to know that's 519 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: just me though, of course there's so many other reasons noted, 520 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: but like we said earlier, there are a lot of 521 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: speculation about the why, with a lot of answers and 522 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: some assumptions behind it. But there's tons and for yourself 523 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: and maybe a completely different reason, and even to the 524 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: point that they've yet said things like escapism as one 525 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: of the things and yeah, kind of like horror movies, 526 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: you're like, why would you torture yourself with this for 527 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 1: your able to remove yourself a little bit from the 528 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: horrors of your own horrors by other people's horrors, which 529 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: is kind of sad. That's it feels weird to say 530 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: out loud. Yeah, yeah, um, but yeah. There's just so 531 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: many things we talked about that I feel like are 532 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: parts of human nature, and they might be parts we 533 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: don't like thinking about too deeply, right it is? And yeah, 534 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: I have been, as Samantha knows, everyone knows, I've been 535 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: on a fan fiction kick for that there was a mystery. 536 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: There was a mystery involved that there was somebody it 537 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: was guilty, and I was telling everybody, I'm like, it's 538 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: this person and this is what should happen. And then 539 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: we got a text when she found out Yeah, I 540 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: was right. But it's kind of that same thing of 541 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: like Okay, I want to learn to pick up on 542 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: these clues of like Okay, this person is not trustworthy 543 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: and avoid them. For myself, I think they a lot 544 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: of things going on in our love for like trying 545 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: to figure out who did it. Who's the worst types 546 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: of people? I know, I know it was him. We've 547 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: talked about several forms of true crime content and as 548 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: our access in different forms of media continue to grow, 549 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: so does the amount of content obviously, so from the 550 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: beginning of true crime there have been several different forms 551 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: and it does continue to grow, and in fact, since 552 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: the origins of Cereal, there are hundreds, if not thousands 553 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: of true crime types of content. Are are types of 554 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: media out there to consume, and yes, many of those 555 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: are on our own network. In the last two years alone, 556 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: it has grown substantially. Podcasting has become one of the 557 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: biggest formats for true crime, and maybe as something to 558 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: you with the fact that it is in this genre 559 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: that women have some level of control. According to one report, 560 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: over the host in the genre are women, and these 561 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: podcasts are more likely to be produced by women as well. 562 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: And as we've talked about and several episodes, that's pretty 563 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: different and the rest of well, and a lot of 564 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: the podcasting community where it does look like it's it 565 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: sounds I guess mostly men, mostly men. Yeah, And to 566 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: be fair, according to some past research, again it's all fluctuating. 567 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: The people who listen to most are men, not necessarily 568 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: about true crime, but in any podcasts in general, the 569 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: listenership is typically leaning towards men, not too much. It's 570 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: not huge. It's almost like maybe six most are men. 571 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: But again that may absolutely have everything to do with 572 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: children in the car and or when we are, yeah, 573 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: doing childcare versus you know, stuff like that makes a 574 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: lot of affecting and who's work and who's doing commuting 575 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: and what. But yeah, and also the fact that yeah, 576 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: most of the format it shows more men are hosts 577 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: than they are there are women, but yeah, not necessarily 578 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: with this one. Yeah. Interesting And also shout out to 579 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: the show Morbid Um for shouting us out right. Thank you. 580 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,479 Speaker 1: My one of my best friends, Katie, who's been on 581 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: this show. She listens to that show and I got 582 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: a very excited text from her and she's like, oh 583 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: my gosh, this shout at out stuff. I ever told 584 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: you all my favorite true crime podcast. I was like, 585 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: so cool, and I meant I had to start it. Yeah. 586 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: They are very fun. Yes, um, yeah, so thank you. 587 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: But all of this to say that doesn't mean books 588 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: are going anywhere. Um, But there's just multiple avenues of 589 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: entertainment and that extends to true crime now and yeah 590 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: it does. It has extended into so much more than books, right, 591 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: There are new forms, including social media forums like TikTok 592 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: and Facebook, which I just talked about Facebook and like 593 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: my own exploration and now I get it. Often it 594 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: pops up with like look at this. I'm like, yep, 595 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: there it is. And there are a lot more to that. 596 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: Many are sharing snippets of horrific crimes and two minute 597 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: clips or past clips or past crimes. Uh, and they're 598 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: gaining traction for it. So essentially having a person having 599 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: the green screen of TikTok and like plastering all these articles. 600 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: Why they're talking about it in two minute scripts and 601 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: saying click to like and the first part two like 602 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: they are doing it um and it was working and 603 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: as in fact, there was a specific post in which 604 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: a woman posted about her sister's murder and disappearance which 605 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: led to the arrest of our stepfather and this case 606 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: is ongoing and this happened on TikTok. I actually saw it. 607 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: I was like, is this is this real? To the 608 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: pot down, like is this scripted or is this real? 609 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: She actually has a post where she's walking down the 610 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: woods and she had a little written blurb about essentially 611 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: if you know much about TikTok, they said, uh, they 612 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: do a little video. They do a little clips and 613 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: they do they maybe they have a song or audio, 614 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: but essentially it sinuated, Uh, your stepfather acting like he 615 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: doesn't know what happened to my sister, but knowing that 616 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: he murdered her or something or he was the cause 617 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: of it. And then there It's to me so erie 618 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: when I see things like that. But and then hurdly, 619 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: if you go onto our post later on, it pops 620 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: up with y'all did it, We did it? Thank you 621 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: so much. My stepfather has been arrested, and I'm like, 622 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: what So to the point that things like that have 623 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: been happening, of course, there's a lot of backlash with that, 624 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: and we'll kind of talk about it a little bit later. 625 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: But it's showing things like TikTok and new forms that 626 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: are jumping onto this type of genre and content that 627 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: it works, and it's gaining lots of traction still. But again, 628 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: what does that mean for this genre in general? Yeah? Well, 629 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: one thing you were telling about, I've never heard of this. 630 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: Um A different type of avenue for true crime is 631 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: the true crime makeup tutorial, which I thought was like 632 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: addressing yourself like a zombie or something. But I was 633 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: way off. So um Bailey Serian and I hope I'm 634 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: pronouncing that correctly has been accredited with this new content. 635 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: So she has a sub series within all of the 636 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: content she makes called Murder, Mystery and Makeup, and she 637 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: talks about different cases while as she puts it, quote 638 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: do my makeup? Um, and it's worked. After she began 639 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: this new segment, she went from one hundred thousand YouTube 640 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,959 Speaker 1: subscribers to almost five million. Of course this was after 641 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: two years, but still very very rapid growth, huge growth. 642 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: Um and began a new trend in the YouTube makeup 643 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: tutorial world. And why does that work? Well? One do 644 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: year said quote learning about these awful time So watching 645 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: someone do their makeup makes it a little bit more 646 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: palatable as opposed to the regular true crime documentary. Right, 647 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: and researchers agree for many, especially with the younger audience, 648 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: which is the tutorial has really hit that youthful and 649 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: I say youth becaus I'm like, what is this, what 650 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: is happening? What what are you kids doing? Um? But 651 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: having makeup being a buffer, having someone doing their makeup 652 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: being a buffer of retelling of some horrible crime has 653 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: made it more palatable now don't get me wrong. Apparently 654 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: in the series, they're not necessarily talking about brands, are 655 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: not telling you anything other than telling you the story 656 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: while they're putting their makeup on, so you can kind 657 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: of see their technique without hearing what they're doing specifically 658 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: about makeup, but here the story at the same time, 659 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: so you can kind of concentrate on what's they're putting 660 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: on their face. Um and yeah, and it's grown and 661 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: crossed over into the world of TikTok as well, just 662 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: again in shorter versions. It seems more like clickbay to me, 663 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: but you know, I don't know much about this, which 664 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: helps to dire the audience to the YouTube channel to 665 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: give the full story. But it's a whole interesting tactic 666 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: and it's been around and there's been many people and 667 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: many a YouTubers and social media stars who have jumped 668 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: on board and doing this as a part of their 669 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: niche I guess um and again it's worked to the 670 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: point that there are some that do requests. So there 671 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: was one star who will give Google I guess access 672 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: Google forms for people to fill out and it could 673 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: be requests to talk about this horrific crime, or it 674 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: can be requests from the victims families to highlight unsolved cases. 675 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: So you know, some of these things are like okay, cool, cool, 676 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: but it does kind of come back to the problem 677 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: like ideas like is this helping or hurting? I don't understand, 678 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: And that kind of comes down to the problems of 679 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: true crime, and I think that's partially a bigger conversation 680 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: of why people are rec you, why are women doing this? 681 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: Are women okay? Essentially cling the question, um, and yes, again, 682 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: there are some problems within this genre and this decensitizing 683 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: of these horrific crimes, which include some say that part 684 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: of these are kind of coppaganda essentially a compaganda for 685 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: those who may not know that term is propaganda for 686 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: enhancing cops or police and hero making them heroes and 687 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: idolizing them essentially. Of course, I'm not saying there's anything 688 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: wrong with law enforcement necessarily. There We've had conversations about 689 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, police and reformation and or abolishment before, and 690 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 1: if you want to listen to that, that's a whole 691 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,479 Speaker 1: different episode. But there's a conversation about whether or not, uh, 692 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: these stories actually elevate cops in a really too good 693 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: of a manner. Or maybe in a bad manner. It's 694 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: kind of both of those things, is according to which 695 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: one you look at. If you look at the night stalker, 696 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of big conversations of the fact that 697 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: how the police were heroes and and don't get me wrong, 698 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: we need police to solve crimes like that, please please, 699 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: please know that. But there's a conversation of who is 700 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: being fetishized in here are the heroes getting more credit 701 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: than you know, the lawyers, sold whatever whatnot. So there's 702 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: a big competition about that and again complicated as a 703 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: whole different conversation that we can have. But then there's 704 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: also the conversation of our way of doing it, and 705 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: we're we're demonizing cops as well. So you see things 706 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: like making a murderer did not shine a good light 707 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: on those investigators. Don't get me wrong. Once again, I 708 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: would also agree justice is meaning to get the right 709 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: person and to ask the right questions and to not 710 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: violate someone's constitutional rights. Obviously, and maybe we need to 711 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: have a conversation about what the conversation looks like today 712 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: and compared to when it was created. Again, a different conversation. 713 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: But all of that to say is They're like, there's 714 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: a little bit of problematic background for both of those things, 715 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: like who is doing what and what is the message 716 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: being said? So with these true crime genres, it is 717 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: disproportionately based on white victims and typically white women, and 718 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: kind of has that whole level of who is being 719 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: a victimized, who's seen as a victim versus who's seen 720 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: as a lesser case. I guess a lot of the 721 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: conversation about why is it that white women are the 722 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: ones who are focused on and most likely to be 723 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: seen when it comes to crimes, and we see people 724 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: of women of color are dismissed typically their crimes are 725 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: not as seen. And again, who is it focusing on? 726 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: And yet again we talked about this before, the romanticizing 727 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: of perpetrators and how they became infatuations such as the 728 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy story. It becomes such a weird, fintish sizing 729 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: horrible man, same way as a night soccer, same way 730 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: as Jeffrey Dahmer. They ended up all having groupies. This 731 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 1: is kind of this level of like, oh, what are 732 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: we doing with this narrative? And then yeah, what are 733 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: we doing to the victims families? Are we actually holding 734 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: any kind of real justice to telling their story or 735 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: read traumatizing and honestly feeding off of their trauma. So 736 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: there's definitely a lot of conversation of what is this 737 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: But the one thing we know, it's not going away, no, no, 738 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 1: And I think there's so much we can pick apart here, 739 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: And it's just interesting how many aspects of humanity and 740 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,879 Speaker 1: and sexism and racism that you can kind of see 741 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: in this one genre where you can talk about like, well, 742 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: why are women empathizing or perhaps fromanticizing perpetrators and why 743 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: are women making up a big chunk of the audience. Like, 744 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to be teased apart and 745 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: all of this, and we've touched on, touched on it, 746 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: but you know, as always, more research is needed. Also, 747 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you listeners. If you 748 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: like true cry, we want to know why. You can 749 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: emails at stuff d your mom Stuff at I heeart 750 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: media dot com. You can find us on Twitter at 751 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff I've Never 752 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks, it's always you're a super producer, Christina, 753 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: Thank you, and thanks to you for listening Stuff One 754 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: Never Told You Protection I High Radio For more podcast 755 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple 756 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: podcast or where you listen to your favorite shows.