WEBVTT - #088 Jason Flom with Vincent Atchity and Kelly Grimes 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.760 This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:09.200 to monitoring and recording exactly eleven. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.799 And it hasn't been easy. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:20.000 One hundred years. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:21.160 That's man. 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:21.720 I'm a kid. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.000 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.520 that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.360 because my life was discarded as if you know, like 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.159 I was a piece of trash or something, you know, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.320 one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.120 to do things I wouldn't committing crimes. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:39.680 You know. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.120 I was a very good young man. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.080 That is what happens in so many cases. The cops 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.120 have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.880 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.320 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.960 marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so 0:00:58.080 --> 0:00:59.600 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.160 They open it to sell doll and our walk down stairs, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:08.679 And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.800 very strange to be, like I said, to be walking 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.200 without no shackles on my feet. I thought it was 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.360 a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:32.080 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back, to Wrongful Conviction. Today, 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.800 we have a very interesting, important and timely topic that 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:38.520 we're going to cover that we haven't talked about in 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.839 death before, which is the treatment of people with mental 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.520 health challenges in the criminal justice system and the shame 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.920 of the way that we as a country handle this disability. 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.640 And we're going to have a conversation today with two 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:59.040 extraordinary people. Kelly Grimes is here. Kelly's been in and 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:03.000 out of prison due to her condition, and she's going 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.600 to share her experience with us. So Kelly, welcome to 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:06.040 the show. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:06.600 Thank you. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.120 And also with us, it's a gentleman named Vincent Atchity, 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.720 and Vincent is the executive director of the Equitass Project. 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:16.760 He has been since twenty fifteen. The Equitass Project is 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.640 a non part is a nonprofit organization that focuses on 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.560 disentangling mental health and criminal justice. They work to cultivate 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:27.239 a shared commitment to prioritize personal liberty and human potential 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.840 over punishment and confinement. And that's a cause we can 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.360 all get behind. So Vincent, welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.120 Thank you. It's good to be here. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.959 So Kelly, let's start with you. Where are you from? 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:42.320 I'm from South Jersey, but I've been living in New 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.440 York City since I'm nineteen ninety, in and out. 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.480 And so yeah, you're a New Yorker, let's call it 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.520 yea here since nineteen ninety. That's good enough. We count 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.040 you one of ours. Now, you know what I mean. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.520 And you've been in and out of the system, and 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.840 I think your story is an example of what's wrong. 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:05.120 It's one of unfortunately millions of examples of what's wrong 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.400 with the way we handle what should be treated as 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.799 a medical issue. And now I want to turn to Vincent, 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:14.119 because Vincent, this work must be maddening to you, because 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.000 it's like trying to slay a dragon. Right, how did 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.040 we go so wrong as a country, and how do 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.839 we get to this place where we incarcerate people who 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.639 need help, who are just our fellow citizens, they're Americans? Right? 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:30.360 I think it goes way back. But we've been doing 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.119 this wrong since the dawn of time. Basically, we've got 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.720 medieval approach to mental health that persists in this country, 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:44.280 and responding to people's mental health challenges with police batons 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.960 and handcuffs and tasers and squad cars and jail cells 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.800 is just never the right response to a person's health needs. 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:53.440 Right, and then it gets worse once you get into 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.760 the system. And of course Kelly can speak to this firsthand. 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.720 I know it's a very difficult topic for you, Kelly, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.480 but doxically, when people with these challenges get stuck in 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:08.000 our GULAG system, they are fundamentally incapable in many cases 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.000 of following the orders that are given to them by 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.480 the guards, and as such they receive punishment after punishment, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.680 they end up in solitary confinement, which, of course then 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.839 the spiral goes downward because you know, anyone would go 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.440 crazy in solitary confinement. But if you're already facing you know, 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.000 your personal demons, it's going to exacerbate that situation. When 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.599 they should be getting psychological treatment, substance abuse treatment, other things. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.240 Instead they're being locked up for things that they're out 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.920 of their control in many cases. And Kelly, again, I 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:36.680 think it's courageous of you just to come in and 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.839 share your story and know how difficult it is. So 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:41.440 how did you first get into the system? 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.800 I first got into the system years ago, but my 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.800 last time in a system was on Micros Island, were 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.359 I spent twenty five months and I got into the 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.080 system because I committed a crime, grand merceny, and one 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.480 I got onto Micros Island. It was brought to my 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.320 attention at I did have mental health issues and that 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.400 was the reason why my life was spiraling. The CEOs 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.040 are not trained to deal with people who are bipolar, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:11.680 who are schizophrenic, who have depression, who have psychosis, which 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.479 is probably a symptom of mental illness, but they're not 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.839 trained to deal with that. They are trained to restrain, 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.000 you know, lock up, you know, and things of that nature. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.800 So people with mental health issues usually wound up, like 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.880 you said, in solitary confinement or in like a mental 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.279 health part of the prison, which do not have trained 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.680 professionals to deal with them. They just lock them up. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.400 And there are so many terrible stories, and Vincent, you 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.320 would know, what is the percentage of people that they 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.640 estimate in our you know, we have two point two 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.040 two point three million people in prison. What percentage of 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.680 those people have some of these issues or all of them? 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.520 So two point two two point three million people in prison, 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.080 and then maybe another twelve million people cycling in and 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.640 out of jails in any given year, and upwards of 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:05.039 eighty percent have some kind of a mental health vulnerability. 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.960 Right, And I'd read that statistic eighty percent, and I 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:08.800 just I didn't want to believe it. So I just 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.560 wanted to make you say it because it's a staggering 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:16.960 number and it's such a preventable, avoidable, terrible statistic. And 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.080 inside of that statistic are all human stories. These are 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.000 all human people like Kelly's sitting in front of us. Now. 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.280 These are not demons, right, they have demons, but they're 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.880 people who grew up and for one reason or another, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.040 they face challenges that other people may not have. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:32.440 Well. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:37.160 And it's not just the individuals, it's their entire family ecosystems. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.320 It's children and parents and cousins and brothers and sisters 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.760 that are all damaged by this mismanagement of needs. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.120 And also being in a prison system or in a 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.640 jail is so traumatic that even if you went in 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.600 jail with no mental health issues, a lot of people 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.240 leave with PTSD. They get out and they have nightmares, 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.400 so very easily as well, that you can come in 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.520 okay and then leave with a very serious mental. 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.440 Health issue, or not leave at all, because there's a 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.360 heightened risk of suicide immediately upon being confined in a jail. 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:17.160 Right, And let us not forget that amongst those people 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:22.200 is a tremendous percentage of people who are military veterans, right, Yeah, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.960 who come in with issues that they didn't have before 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.560 they entered the military. We send them to war, they 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.040 come back, we don't treat them right that. We know 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.360 the problems. Everyone knows the problems at the VA which 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.920 are inexcusable. And you know one example of that, which 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.000 is a New York case, right, was Jerome Murdaw who 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.760 was a fifty six year old veteran with schizophrenia and 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.080 a substance of Broup's problem, and he was found dead 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.120 after a heating malfunction drove the temperatures in his cell 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.520 at Rikers Island to over one hundred degrees. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.160 I was there when it happened, Yeah, I remember that. 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.120 And they hit it. They didn't want anybody to talk 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.720 about it. You know, there's rumors because there order CEOs 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.080 that talk with the mates, like you've formed these very 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.720 weird relationships with your captors or could very easily be 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.880 your friend one minute and then abusing you the next minute. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:14.200 But they hid that. They didn't want anyone to speak 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:14.360 of that. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.880 Right, And in case you're out there wondering, well, what 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.800 was this guy doing in Rikers And here's the worst part. 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.080 And it gives me the chills every time I think 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.480 of this or say it out loud. Mister murder again. 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.480 A veteran had been arrested for sleeping in the stairwell 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.520 of a public housing project. Homeless veteran. I mean, what 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:35.920 the fuck are we doing? 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:36.280 You know? 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.200 And he's not alone. I mean, there was the guy 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:40.480 I think it was this year last year in Florida, right, 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.319 the guy with mental abuse who was tortured to death. 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.360 He was scalded to death by a guard who locked 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.120 him in a burning shower for two hours until he 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.480 literally melted. Right, It's like, what the I mean, where 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:50.920 are we? 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.400 Like there is some cause for optimism? 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:54.880 Good? 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.400 I would say this is probably the only, maybe the 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.959 only area in the American scene right now where there 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.240 is not absolute division and chaos in terms of outlook 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:09.720 on social issues. Wherever I go around the country, I 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.560 find people across the board. You've got das, you've got 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:18.000 public defenders, you've got sheriffs, you've got behavioral health providers, judges, 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.520 conservatives and liberals who are in a state of near 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.640 unanimous agreement that what we're doing is totally insane in 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.040 terms of the costs and the outcomes associated with it. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.199 And so I think that there is a growing awareness 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:38.040 among operatives in the scope of the court system and 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.160 the law enforcement system that understand that they are managing 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.719 a public health crisis with the tools of law enforcement 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.040 and a court system, and it's a health crisis, and 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.640 what we need is to turn this upstream into a 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.720 health management situation. I think that there is emerging clarity 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.240 about that change in direction for getting this right, and 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.600 it may take time time, but I think that there 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.000 is some cause for optimism. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.720 Well, when I was in jail, I was watching news 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.080 one day in the dorm and I saw on the 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.640 news that Mayor Deblasio funded I think one hundred and 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:18.840 thirty million dollars for mental health for people in the 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.079 penal system. Then I met a girl who was in 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.760 the mental health court system, and she told me that, 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.119 you know, they help you find housing, you know, medical 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:31.560 help for your mental health and things of that nature. 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.880 And so I looked into that. I was able to 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.480 get into mental health court, which is a court system 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.559 that recognizes that sometimes your mental health is the catalyst 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.200 for you committed a crime. And so I was with 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.800 a long, tedious fight and having approved to my criminal 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.720 judge that I was mentally ill, along with my lawyer 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.840 Michelle Halser, that I was, you know, able to get 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.680 into this court system that recognizes mental illness in any event. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:05.199 Guardian organization called Cases. They took my case. They was 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.920 the liaison between myself and a judge, you know, to 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:09.599 make sure I took my medication, to make sure I 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.240 made my appointment, to make sure I got therapy, to 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.080 make sure I found housing. So they were my guardian 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.680 to make sure I was making all the proper steps 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.520 to become a productive citizen. You know, back in the 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.840 free world we call it. I think that Cases and 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:31.360 their counselor Steve doctor k McKnight, judge Juan Marshan, who 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:36.000 presides over the Mental Health Court, really weird. But the 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.840 DA of that mental Health Court, she was very supportive, 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.840 you know, she wasn't she wasn't quick to throw people 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.679 with mental health issues into jail. Matter of fact, one 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.560 time she even defended me because I got into some 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.000 issues outside and judge Marshaan was going to put me 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.720 back in jail, and the DA said, you know what, 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.920 let's not put her in jail. Let's just give her 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.280 another chance. And I was like this, the DA is 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.880 supporting you know. So this is the beauty of having 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.959 a court system that recognizes mental illness. 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.320 And we need to vote for progressive das for that reason. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.480 DA's races are so important. Not that many people vote 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.480 in them, your vote really matters. We also need to 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.720 have drug courts, which are coming into favor in a 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.960 lot of different places, that can treat people for what 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:23.000 they are well. 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:24.720 And you know, I'm a great admirer of the work 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:29.440 that cases does in providing careful case management and not 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.800 just it's not just healthcare, but it's also access to 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.520 housing and employment opportunities. It's a really thoughtful support of 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.760 human development. And it's fantastic that we've got the progressive 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.880 judges and das who get this. What's tragic is that 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.800 why aren't we providing that kind of support for people 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.480 before they get themselves in trouble with the justice system. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:55.320 We just ignore and neglect people's needs systematically and then 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.320 intervene once some kind of an offense has been committed, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.120 so it's just disastrously backwards. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.360 My mental health issues stemmed from childhood trauma that was 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:11.079 left untreated and that caused my life to spar out 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.280 of control, and it really manifested itself in my adult 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.079 life because I didn't know why I wasn't living a 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.040 more normal lifestyle at this point. 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.400 There are more families that have some experience with this 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.360 issue than don't. I know, so many people from all 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.880 walks of life. You know, one friend who I'm thinking 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:35.080 of now, whose son was having paranoid delusions and you know, 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.800 called the cops, and when the cops came, there was 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.000 nothing there as there was nobody chasing him. There was 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:41.800 nothing nobody in his house. So then he had these 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.120 in same delusions against her, called the fire department, and 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.800 when the fire department came, he felt bad. So we 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.440 started a fire, you know, just because he was scared 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.280 of the consequences if nothing was there for the fire 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.040 department to find it. And then he got charged with arson. 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.240 Nobody got hurt. It wasn't a real fire. It was 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:56.920 like a little fire on his stove, and then he 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.480 ended up with five years in prison. It's like you know, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.640 these stories, there's just too many of them to count, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.600 and the costs of society are staggering, right, I mean 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.760 for and I think this is one of the reasons 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.600 why the conservatives have come around in large part to 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:18.240 this issue and to activism on this issue, right, because 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.240 inside the numbers, right, it costs. And this is this 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.240 is not me, this is the city controller has said 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.280 that it costs a round seven hundred and fifty dollars 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.280 a day to keep someone in rikers Island locked up, 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.240 not including court costs, not including police costs, over time, 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.240 whatever else it might be. And we have cases where 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.920 people like Victor Alvarez, right, who's been by his own count, 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.240 locked up in Rikers one hundred and two times, right 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.680 because of his substance abuse and other issues that he 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.280 has challenges. They just cycle in and out, you know, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.880 again for people who are you know, fiscal conservatives, or 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.120 who even care at all about where your tax dollars 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.120 are going. You know, I'm going to quote from an 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.160 article in the New York Times for twenty fourteen where 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.880 they talked about how many of the inmates are called 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.000 frequent flyers, which is sort of an ironic whatever the 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.920 hell name to use, but they constantly cycle in out 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.280 of records island. And this task force identified more than 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.480 four hundred people who had been jailed at least eighteen 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.240 times in the last five years, accounting for over ten 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.840 thousand jail admissions during that period. It said that sixty 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.080 seven percent of these inmates had a mental health need, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.360 twenty one percent were severely mentally yell severely meaning they 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.040 had diseases like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, and ninety nine 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.280 percent of them had a substance abuse problem. Ninety nine percent. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:40.120 It's unbelievable. And you know myself, you know, because I, 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.200 you know, grew up in a world of privilege, right 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.600 just by luck of birth right. I was born into 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.400 an environment in which I was not subjected to this 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.720 type of treatment, and I ended up in a rehab facility, 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:54.720 you know, which is the appropriate way to deal with 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:56.760 these issues. And you know what, as soon as I 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.800 came out, I stopped doing whatever it was I was 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.600 doing before. I stayed sober and I built businesses and 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.120 I paid lots of taxes, and I helped other people. 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.840 I employed people, And so that's what's another thing about 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.360 this that really makes me, nuts is the untapped potential 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.280 right of people who are in similar situations to what 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.080 I was in, and who could be contributing to society 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.200 instead of being a drag on society and living lives 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.040 of abject misery because they can't figure out, I mean 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:29.800 on their own. I couldn't figure out on my own either. 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.600 I tried. I couldn't kick it until I went to 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.240 a rehab and boom, boom, twenty eight days and I 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:36.800 come out smelling like a rose. 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:37.120 Yeah. 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.520 In terms of lost opportunity, I think it's been calculated 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:44.080 that we spend something like three trillion dollars in terms 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.880 of lost economic productivity and collateral damage to people's earning 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:53.400 power and impact on children's earning power when their parents 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:58.320 are incarcerated, and some cities and communities are discovering the 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.440 math just doesn't make sense, and they are in early 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:07.119 stages of implementing alternatives to incarceration where they will create 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:11.280 supportive housing environments for people with mental health concerns and 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.240 finding that they can spend something like two fifths on 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.679 that kind of intervention compared to what they're spending on 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.800 the whole court process and incarceration. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.720 Jason was saying that he was privileged in things in 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.320 that nature. So this problem, like, is it like a 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:28.400 financial or. 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.639 Well, I think we have two separate systems of justice 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.040 in America. I mean then that runs throughout. It's one 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.720 system if you can afford bail, for instance, and one 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.639 if you can't. You know, one if you can afford 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.480 a private attorney, one if you can't. Look, if I 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.359 could wave a magic wand and fix all of it, 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:49.040 I would. I mean, these problems are complex and they're 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.160 not all going to be addressed overnight. But there are 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:56.639 things that we just do fundamentally wrong that other countries don't. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:57.240 Right. 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.639 So while no one has a perfect system, for instance, 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.520 and this goes back to what you were saying before, Kelly, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.639 in Scandinavia for instance, in most parts of Scandinavia, to 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.600 become a corrections officer, you have to train for two years. 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.080 You have to get I think it's like some sort 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.520 of degree in psychology conflict resolution. They study right, Only 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:18.480 ten percent of the people that apply for those jobs 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.480 actually get them right. And you know, as a result, 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:27.640 they have an entirely different environment inside and when they 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.199 come out they have almost no overcidivism so they treat 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.840 the incarcerated people there as human beings, you know, with 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.919 a focus on rehabilitation. Of course, you know, it still 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.600 sucks because you're removed from your family and your job 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.000 and your life, but you're not in an environment where 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.120 you're subject to let's face, let's call it what it is, torture. 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.600 Right As a result, you have a chance to come 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.760 out and lead a healthy, productive life. And that's the 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.520 right way to do it. And it's interesting right now 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.159 we have groups that are bringing people from the corrections 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:05.640 department different states and cities over to Germany, Scandinavia, other 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:07.639 places to see how they do it, and they're coming 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.880 back with it, I think, a very different outlook. And 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:12.879 that's one way the change is going to take place, 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.199 you know, Kelly, this goes back to you. For me, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.600 one of the most awful things about our criminal i'll 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.480 call it criminal injustice system is that we lock women 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.480 up at a rate that is so out of step 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.440 of the rest of the world. We have four four 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.280 percent of the world's population, we have thirty three percent 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.680 of the world's female prison population, so we have one 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.760 out of every three women in prison. And the world 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.600 is big by the way right, very big. It's almost 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:42.520 eight billion people in the world. We have just three 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.480 hundred and seventy million or whatever in America. It's crazy. 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.640 This is crazy, you know. I don't really think that 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.760 we have more evil people here than they do in 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.760 the rest of the world, because there's only two possible conclusions. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:55.520 Either we have most evil people or else we're doing 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.040 it totally wrong. And so inside those numbers are the 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.600 human stories. And you know firsthand anecdotally, but you know 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.880 the number of these women who have children. 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.800 Oh yeah, I've seen women with children, and I've seen 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.680 women who were pregnant inside the prisons. Also. I think 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.199 that stems from two like you were saying, as far 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.000 as the privilege, I did twenty five months on MICROSI 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.320 didn't fight in my case because I couldn't afford the bill. 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.119 I was not there for violent crime. I did my crime. 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.479 I'm not here to deny that, but I couldn't afford 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.600 the fifty thousand dollars cash bail to get out. That's 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:39.280 why a lot of women and men as well are 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.040 in the jail system and prison because they couldn't afford 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.760 to bail and do their case on the outside, which 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.560 makes a big difference for some reason, Like if you 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.000 fight it on the outside, they call it, you know, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.000 jail house talk. Fight your case on the outside rather 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.399 than fight it on it inside. For some reason, you 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:58.080 have a better chance of not going to prison. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:20:59.959 Right, And let's reflect on this for a second, right, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.879 and again inside the numbers, So you were accused of 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:07.679 stealing about five thousand dollars worth of equipment, av equipment, TV, whatever, 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.560 toaster rub and using a credit card that didn't belong 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.000 to you, not like going in and sticking up a store, right, 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.760 and so it was a nonviolent property crime essentially, right. 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.520 And so you were accused of stealing five thousand dollars 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:24.200 worth of goods and we spent about five hundred thousand 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.200