Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording exactly a hundred years. That's manly.
Speaker 1: I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know that was that was real payingful man, no,
Speaker 1: because my life was discarded as if you know, like
Speaker 1: I was a piece of trash or something, you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted
Speaker 1: to do things I wouldn't committing crimes. You know. That
Speaker 1: was a very good young man. That is what happened
Speaker 1: in so many cases. The cops have a hunch because
Speaker 1: they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch,
Speaker 1: and once they act on that hunch, they sort of
Speaker 1: developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the
Speaker 1: wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. They opening, uh, the cell door, and I'll
Speaker 1: walk downstairs. And I actually walked down stairs to be outside.
Speaker 1: It felt very strange, um to be, like I said,
Speaker 1: to be walking without no shackles on my feet. I
Speaker 1: thought it was a dream. But then again it wasn't
Speaker 1: a dream. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today,
Speaker 1: we have a very interesting, important and timely topic that
Speaker 1: we're going to cover that we haven't talked about in
Speaker 1: Death before, which is the treatment of people with mental
Speaker 1: health challenges in the criminal justice system and the shame
Speaker 1: of the way that we as a country handle this disability.
Speaker 1: And we're going to have a conversation today with two
Speaker 1: extraordinary people. Kelly Grimes is here. Kelly's been in and
Speaker 1: out of prison due to her condition, and she's going
Speaker 1: to share her experience with us. So Kelly, welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Thank you. And also with us is a
Speaker 1: gentleman named Vincent Atchity, and Vincent is the executive director
Speaker 1: of the Equitas Project, has been since two thousand fifteen.
Speaker 1: The Equitas Project is a non part of a nonprofit
Speaker 1: organization that focuses on disentangling mental health and criminal justice.
Speaker 1: They work to cultivate a shared commitment to prioritize personal
Speaker 1: liberty and human potential over punishment and confinement. And that's
Speaker 1: a cause we can all get behind. So Vincent, welcome
Speaker 1: to Wrong for Conviction. Thank you. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1: So Kelly, let's start with you. Where are you from.
Speaker 1: I'm from Self Jersey, but I've been um living in
Speaker 1: New York City since in and out and um, so yeah,
Speaker 1: you're in New Yorker here, since that's good enough, which
Speaker 1: we count you in of ours. Now you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. And you've been in and out of the system.
Speaker 1: And I think your story is an example of what's wrong.
Speaker 1: Um it's one of unfortunately millions of examples of what's
Speaker 1: wrong with the way we handle what should be treated
Speaker 1: as a medical issue. And now I want to turn
Speaker 1: to Vincent, because Vincent, this work must be maddening to you,
Speaker 1: because it's like trying to slay a dragon. Right, how
Speaker 1: did we go so wrong as a country, and how
Speaker 1: do we get to this place where we incarcerated people
Speaker 1: who need help, who are just our fellow citizens, they're Americans, right.
Speaker 1: I think it goes way back. But we've been doing
Speaker 1: this wrong since the dawn of time. Basically, we've got
Speaker 1: medieval approach to mental health that persists in this country,
Speaker 1: and responding to people's mental health challenges with police batons
Speaker 1: and handcuffs and tasers and squad cars and jail cells
Speaker 1: is just never the right response to a person's health needs. Right,
Speaker 1: and then it gets worse once you get into the
Speaker 1: system and of course, Kelly can speak to this firsthand.
Speaker 1: I know it's a very difficult topic for you, Kelly,
Speaker 1: but para doxically, when people with these challenges get stuck
Speaker 1: in our gulag system, they are fundamentally incapable in many
Speaker 1: cases of following the orders that are given to them
Speaker 1: by the guards, and as such they received punishment after punishment,
Speaker 1: they end up in solitary confinement, which, of course then
Speaker 1: the spiral goes downward because you know, anyone would go
Speaker 1: crazy and solitary confinement. But if you're already you know facing,
Speaker 1: you know your personal demons, it's going to exacerbate that
Speaker 1: situation when they should be getting psychological treatment, substance abuse treatment,
Speaker 1: other things. Instead they're being locked up for things that
Speaker 1: they're out of their control in many cases. And Kelly, again,
Speaker 1: I think it's courageous of you just to come in
Speaker 1: and share your story. I know how difficult it is.
Speaker 1: So how did you first get into the system? Um?
Speaker 1: I first got into the system years ago, but my
Speaker 1: last time in a system was on Micro's Island. Were
Speaker 1: spent five months and I got into the system because
Speaker 1: I committed a crime crean arseny, and one I got
Speaker 1: onto Micros Island. It was brought to my attention at
Speaker 1: I did have a mental health issues and that was
Speaker 1: the reason why my life was spiraling. The CEOs are
Speaker 1: not trained to deal with people who are bipolar, who
Speaker 1: are schizophrenic, who have depression, who have psychosis, which is
Speaker 1: probably a symptom of mental illness, but but they're not
Speaker 1: trained to deal with that. They are trained to restrain,
Speaker 1: you know, lock up, you know, and things of that nature.
Speaker 1: So people with mental health issues usually wound up, like
Speaker 1: you said, in solitary confinement or in like a mental
Speaker 1: health part of the prison, which do not have trained
Speaker 1: professionals to deal with them. They just lock them up.
Speaker 1: And there are so many terrible stories, and Vincent, you
Speaker 1: would know, what is the percentage of people that they
Speaker 1: estimate in our you know, we have two point to
Speaker 1: two point three million people in prison. What percentage of
Speaker 1: those people have some of these issues or all of them?
Speaker 1: So two point to two point three million people in prison,
Speaker 1: and then maybe another twelve million people cycling in and
Speaker 1: out of jails in any given year, and upwards of
Speaker 1: eight percent have some kind of a mental health vulnerability, right,
Speaker 1: And I had read that statistic and I just I
Speaker 1: didn't want to believe it, so I just wanted to
Speaker 1: make you say it, because it's a staggering number, um
Speaker 1: and it's such a preventable, avoidable, terrible statistic. And inside
Speaker 1: of that statistics are all human stories. There's there. These
Speaker 1: are all human people like Kellys sitting in front of
Speaker 1: us now, right, These are not demons, right, they have demons,
Speaker 1: But there are people who grew up and for one
Speaker 1: reason or another, they face challenges that other people may
Speaker 1: not have. Well, it's not just the individuals, it's their
Speaker 1: entire family ecosystems. It's children and parents and cousins and
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters that are all damaged by this mismanagement
Speaker 1: of needs. And also being in a prison system or
Speaker 1: in the jail is so traumatic that even if you
Speaker 1: went in jail with no mental health issues, a lot
Speaker 1: of people leave with PTSD. They get out and they
Speaker 1: have nightmares, so very easily as well, that you can
Speaker 1: come in okay and then leave with a very serious
Speaker 1: mental health issue, or not leave at all, because there's
Speaker 1: a heightened risk of suicide immediately upon being confined in
Speaker 1: a jail. Right, and and let us not forget that
Speaker 1: amongst those people is a tremendous percentage of people who
Speaker 1: are military veterans who come in with issues that they
Speaker 1: didn't have before they entered the military. We send them
Speaker 1: to war, they come back, we don't treat them right
Speaker 1: that that we know the problems. Everyone knows the problems
Speaker 1: at the v A which are inexcusable. And you know
Speaker 1: one example of that, which is in New York case, right,
Speaker 1: was Jerome Murdaugh who was a fifty six year old
Speaker 1: veteran with schizophrenia and a substance of broute problem and
Speaker 1: he was found dead after a heating malfunction drove the
Speaker 1: temperatures in his cell at Rikers Island to over a
Speaker 1: hundred degrees. How was there when that happened? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember that, and they hit it. They didn't want
Speaker 1: anybody to talk about it. You know, there's rumors because
Speaker 1: they're out CEO's that talk with the mates like you
Speaker 1: formed these very weird relationships with your captors or could
Speaker 1: very easily be your friend and one minute and then
Speaker 1: abusing you the next minute. But um, they hid that.
Speaker 1: They didn't want anyone to speak of that. Right. And
Speaker 1: in case you're out there wondering while what was this
Speaker 1: guy doing in Rikers And here's the worst part. It
Speaker 1: gives me the chills every time I think of this
Speaker 1: or say it out loud. Mr Murdoch again, a veteran
Speaker 1: had been arrested for sleeping in the stairwell of a
Speaker 1: public housing project. Homeless veteran. I mean, what the funk
Speaker 1: are we doing? You know? And he's not alone. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was the guy that I don't think it was
Speaker 1: this year last year in Florida, right, the guy with
Speaker 1: mental abuse who was tortured to death. He was scalded
Speaker 1: to death by a guard who locked him in a
Speaker 1: burning shower for two hours until he literally melted. Right,
Speaker 1: It's like, what the I mean, where are we like
Speaker 1: there is some cause for optimism good? I would say
Speaker 1: this is probably the only, maybe the only area in
Speaker 1: the American scene right now, where there is not absolute
Speaker 1: division and chaos in terms of outlook on social issues.
Speaker 1: Wherever I go around the country, I find people across
Speaker 1: the board. You've got d A s, you've got public defenders,
Speaker 1: you've got sheriffs, you've got behavioral health providers, judges, conservatives
Speaker 1: and liberals who are in a state of near unanimous
Speaker 1: agreement that what we're doing is totally insane in terms
Speaker 1: of the costs and the outcomes associated with it. And
Speaker 1: so I think that there is a growing awareness among
Speaker 1: operatives in the scope of the court system and the
Speaker 1: law enforcement system that understand that they are managing a
Speaker 1: public health crisis with the tools of law enforcement and
Speaker 1: a court system, and it's a health crisis, and what
Speaker 1: we need is to turn this upstream into a health
Speaker 1: management situation. I think that there is emerging clarity about
Speaker 1: that change in direction for getting this right, and it
Speaker 1: may take time time, but I think that there is
Speaker 1: some cause for optimism. Well, when I was in jail,
Speaker 1: I was watching news one day in the dorm and
Speaker 1: I saw the news that Mayor Doublasio funded I think
Speaker 1: a hundred thirty million dollars for um like mental health
Speaker 1: for people in the penal system. Then I met a
Speaker 1: girl who was in the mental health court system, and um,
Speaker 1: she told me that, you know, to help you find housing,
Speaker 1: you know, medical health for your mental health and things
Speaker 1: of that nature. And UM, so I looked into that.
Speaker 1: I was able to get into mental health court, which
Speaker 1: is the court system that recognizes that sometimes your mental
Speaker 1: health is the catalyst for you committed a crime. And
Speaker 1: so I was with a long, tedious fight and having
Speaker 1: approved to my criminal judge that I was mentally ill,
Speaker 1: along with my lawyer Michelle Hauser, that I was, you know,
Speaker 1: able to get into this court system that recognizes mental
Speaker 1: illness in any event. Already an organization called Cases. They
Speaker 1: took my case. They was the liaison between myself and
Speaker 1: the judge, you know, to make sure I took my medication,
Speaker 1: to make sure I made my appointment, to make sure
Speaker 1: I got therapy, to make sure I found housing. Saday
Speaker 1: were my guardian to make sure I was making all
Speaker 1: the proper steps to become a productive citizen. You know,
Speaker 1: back in in the free world we call it. I
Speaker 1: think that Cases and their counselor Steve Dr Kan McKnight, um,
Speaker 1: Judge Juan Marashan, who presides over the Mental health Court,
Speaker 1: um really weird. But the d A of that mental
Speaker 1: health Court, she was very supportive. You know, she wasn't
Speaker 1: she wasn't quick to throw people with mental health issues
Speaker 1: into jail. Matter of fact, one time she even defended
Speaker 1: me because I got into some issues outside and Judge
Speaker 1: Marshawn was going to put me back in jail, and
Speaker 1: the d A said, you know what, let's not put
Speaker 1: her in jail. Let's just give her another chance. And
Speaker 1: I was like, d A is is supporting you know.
Speaker 1: So this is the beauty of having a court system
Speaker 1: that recognizes mental illness. And we need to vote for
Speaker 1: progressive das for that reason. Um, DAS races are so important.
Speaker 1: Not that many people vote in them, your vote really matters.
Speaker 1: We also need to have drug courts, which are coming
Speaker 1: into favor in a lot of different places, that can
Speaker 1: treat people for what they are well. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a great admirer of the work that cases does
Speaker 1: in providing careful case management and not just it's not
Speaker 1: just health care, but it's also access to housing and
Speaker 1: employment opportunities. It's a really thoughtful support of human development.
Speaker 1: And it's fantastic that we've got the progressive judges and
Speaker 1: das who get this. What's tragic is that why aren't
Speaker 1: we providing that kind of support for people before they
Speaker 1: get themselves in trouble with the justice system. We just
Speaker 1: ignore and neglect people's needs systematically and then intervene once
Speaker 1: some kind of an offense has been committed. It's it's
Speaker 1: just disastrously backwards. My mental health issues stemmed from childhood
Speaker 1: trauma that was left untreated, and that um caused my
Speaker 1: life to spar out of control, and it really manifested
Speaker 1: itself in my adult life because I didn't know why
Speaker 1: I wasn't living no more more normal lifestyle at this point.
Speaker 1: There are more families that have some experience with this
Speaker 1: issue than don't. I know, so many people from all
Speaker 1: walks of life. Um. You know one friend who I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of now, whose son was having paranoid delusions and
Speaker 1: you know, called the cops, and when the cops came,
Speaker 1: there was nothing there because there was nobody chasing him.
Speaker 1: There was nothing nobody in his house. So then he
Speaker 1: had these intame delusions against it, called the fire department,
Speaker 1: and when the fire department came, he felt bad. So
Speaker 1: he started a fire, you know, just because he was
Speaker 1: scared of the consequences if nothing was there for the
Speaker 1: fire department to find, and then he got charged with arson.
Speaker 1: Nobody got hurt. It wasn't a real fire. It was
Speaker 1: like a little fire on his stove, and then he
Speaker 1: ended up with five years in prison. It's like, you
Speaker 1: know these stories, there's just too many of them to count,
Speaker 1: and the costs to society are staggering, right, I mean
Speaker 1: for and I think this is one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why the conservatives have come around in large part to
Speaker 1: this issue and to activism in this issue, right, because
Speaker 1: inside the numbers, right, it costs. And this is this
Speaker 1: is not me, this is the city controller has said
Speaker 1: that it costs up round seven fifty dollars a day
Speaker 1: to keep someone in rikers Island locked up, not including
Speaker 1: court costs, not including police costs, over time, whatever else
Speaker 1: it might be. And we have cases where people like
Speaker 1: Victor Alvarez, right, who has been by his own account,
Speaker 1: locked up in Rikers a hundred and two times, right
Speaker 1: because of his substance abuse and other issues that he
Speaker 1: has challenges. They just cycle in and out, you know,
Speaker 1: again for people who are you know, fiscal conservatives, or
Speaker 1: who even care at all about where your tax dollars
Speaker 1: are going. You know, I'm going to quote from an
Speaker 1: article in the New York Times for two thousand fourteen
Speaker 1: where they talked about how many of the inmates are
Speaker 1: called frequent flyers, which is sort of a ironic whatever
Speaker 1: the hell named to use. But they constantly cycle and
Speaker 1: not of records Island, and that this task force identified
Speaker 1: more than four people who had been jailed at least
Speaker 1: eighteen times in the last five years, accounting for over
Speaker 1: ten thousand jail admissions during that period. It said the
Speaker 1: sixty seven percentage inmates had a mental health need, were
Speaker 1: severely mentally ill, severely meaning they had diseases like schizophrenia
Speaker 1: or bipolar disorder, and of them had a substance abuse problem.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. And you know myself, you know, because I,
Speaker 1: you know, grew up in a world of privilege, right,
Speaker 1: just by luck of birth. Right, I was born into
Speaker 1: an environment in which I was not subjected to this
Speaker 1: type of treatment, and I ended up in a rehab facility,
Speaker 1: you know, which is the appropriate way to deal with
Speaker 1: these issues. And you know what, as soon as I
Speaker 1: came out, I stopped doing whatever it was I was
Speaker 1: doing before. I stayed sober, and I built businesses, and
Speaker 1: I paid lots of taxes, and I helped other people.
Speaker 1: I employed people, And so that's what's another thing about
Speaker 1: this that really makes me nuts is the untapped potential
Speaker 1: right of people who are in similar situations to what
Speaker 1: I was in and who could be contributing to society
Speaker 1: instead of being a drag on society and living lives
Speaker 1: of abject misery because they can't figure out on their own.
Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out on my own either. I tried.
Speaker 1: I couldn't kick it until I went to a rehab
Speaker 1: and boom, boom, twenty eight days and I come out
Speaker 1: smelling like a rose. Yeah. In terms of lost opportunity,
Speaker 1: I think it's been calculated that we spend something like
Speaker 1: three trillion dollars in terms of lost economic productivity and
Speaker 1: collateral damage to people's earning power and impact on children's
Speaker 1: earning power when their parents are incarcerated, And some cities
Speaker 1: and communities are discovering the math just doesn't make sense,
Speaker 1: and they are in early stages of implementing alternatives to
Speaker 1: incarceration where they will create supportive housing environments for people
Speaker 1: with mental health concerns and finding that they can spend
Speaker 1: something like two fifths on that kind of intervention compared
Speaker 1: to what they're spending on the whole court process and incarceration.
Speaker 1: Jason was saying that he was privileged in things of
Speaker 1: that nature. So this problem, like, is it like a
Speaker 1: financial or well, I think we have two separate systems
Speaker 1: of justice in America. I mean then that that runs throughout.
Speaker 1: It's one system if you're if you can afford bail,
Speaker 1: for instance, and one if you can't. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: one if you can afford a private attorney, one if
Speaker 1: you can't. Look, if I could wave a magic one
Speaker 1: to fix all of it, I would. I mean, these
Speaker 1: problems are complex and they're not all going to be
Speaker 1: addressed overnight. Um. But there are things that we just
Speaker 1: do fundamentally wrong that other countries don't. Right. So while
Speaker 1: no one has a perfect system, for instance, and this
Speaker 1: goes back to what you were saying before, Kelly, in
Speaker 1: Scandinavia for instance, and most parts of Scandinavia, to become
Speaker 1: a corrections officer, you have to train for two years.
Speaker 1: You have to get I think it's like some sort
Speaker 1: of degree in psychology conflict resolution. They study, right, only
Speaker 1: ten percent of the people that apply for those jobs
Speaker 1: actually get them right. And you know, as a result,
Speaker 1: they have an entirely different environment inside and when they
Speaker 1: come out they have almost no recidivism. So they treat
Speaker 1: the incarcerated people there as human beings, you know, and
Speaker 1: with a focus on rehabilitation. Of course, you know, it
Speaker 1: still sucks because you're removed from your family and your
Speaker 1: job and your life, but you're not in an environment
Speaker 1: where you're subject to let's pace, let's call it what
Speaker 1: it is, torture. Right. As a result, you have a
Speaker 1: chance to come out and lead a healthy, productive life.
Speaker 1: And that's the right way to do it. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting right now we have groups that are bringing people
Speaker 1: from the corrections department of different states and cities over
Speaker 1: to Germany, Scandinavia, other places to see how they do it,
Speaker 1: and they're coming back with I think, a very different outlook,
Speaker 1: and that's one way the change is going to take place. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, Kelly, this goes back to you. For me,
Speaker 1: one of the most awful things about our criminal criminal
Speaker 1: injustice system is that we lock women up at a
Speaker 1: rate that is so out of step with the rest
Speaker 1: of the world. We have four point four percent of
Speaker 1: the world's population and we have thirty three percent of
Speaker 1: the world's female prison population, so we have one out
Speaker 1: of every three women in prison in the world. Is big,
Speaker 1: by the way, right, very big. It's almost eight billion
Speaker 1: people in the world. We have just three seventy million
Speaker 1: or whatever in America. It's crazy. This is crazy, you know.
Speaker 1: I don't really think that we have more evil people
Speaker 1: here than they do in the rest of the world,
Speaker 1: because there's only two possible conclusions. Either we have most
Speaker 1: evil people or else we're doing it totally wrong. And
Speaker 1: so inside those numbers are the human stories. And you
Speaker 1: know firsthand anecdotally, but you know the number of these
Speaker 1: women who have children. Oh yeah, I've seen women with children,
Speaker 1: and I've seen women who were pregnant inside the prisons. Also,
Speaker 1: I think that stems from to like you were saying,
Speaker 1: as far as the privilege, I did twenty five months
Speaker 1: or microsidan fight in my case because I couldn't afford
Speaker 1: the bill. I was not there for violent crime. I
Speaker 1: did my crime. I'm not here to deny that, but
Speaker 1: I couldn't afford the cash bail to get out. That's
Speaker 1: why a lot of women and men as well are
Speaker 1: in the jail system and prison because they couldn't afford
Speaker 1: to bail and do their case on the outside, which
Speaker 1: makes a big difference for some reason, like if you
Speaker 1: fight it on the outside, they call it, you know,
Speaker 1: jail house talk. Fight your case on the outside, rather
Speaker 1: than fight it on the inside. For some reason, you
Speaker 1: have a better chance of not going to prison. Right,
Speaker 1: And let's reflect on this for a second, right, and
Speaker 1: again inside the numbers, So you were accused of stealing
Speaker 1: about five thousand dollars worth of equipment a V equipment,
Speaker 1: TV whatever, toaster of and using a credit card that
Speaker 1: didn't belong to you, not like going in and sticking
Speaker 1: up a store, right, and so it was a non
Speaker 1: violent property crime essentially, right. And so you're accused of
Speaker 1: stealing five thousand dollars worth of goods and we spent
Speaker 1: about five hundred thousand dollars keeping you locked up on
Speaker 1: Rikers Islands. So how's that return on investment? Vincent? You
Speaker 1: want to you want to weigh in on that one. Well,
Speaker 1: it's just the most insane thing to do. And we
Speaker 1: systematically waste money and lives across the board. And you know,
Speaker 1: starting with childhood trauma, as soon as a kid start
Speaker 1: showing some signs of having some difficulty in integrating with
Speaker 1: a school community or something like that, we start flushing
Speaker 1: that person right away and creating this pipeline towards jail
Speaker 1: in prison that is insanely costly and fails to sort
Speaker 1: of optimize all the potential of this great human talent.
Speaker 1: You know, I had an opportunity. I was at Georgetown
Speaker 1: University a couple of years ago and got to hear
Speaker 1: they had been conducting and in prison writing course and
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of folks who had been released
Speaker 1: and they were reading the stuff that they'd written. Somebody asked, so,
Speaker 1: how many people that you ran into while during your
Speaker 1: prison sentence had some kind of talent? And they said, Oh,
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of human potential that is just
Speaker 1: locked away at great cost. And so it's not just
Speaker 1: today's cost, it's the long term cost of what we're
Speaker 1: doing with whole populations of people and their children who
Speaker 1: could be contributing to the economy and enriching us all
Speaker 1: with their talent. Yeah. I asked Mike mill I had
Speaker 1: him on the podcast recently, and I asked him how
Speaker 1: many people does he think are locked up in this
Speaker 1: country that are just as talented as he is? And
Speaker 1: he said too many. Think about some of the greatest
Speaker 1: hip hop stars of our generation. Many of them had
Speaker 1: you know, checkered pasts, right, they did what they could do,
Speaker 1: turn a living where they and I'm not saying it's
Speaker 1: right wrong, I'm not judging it whatsoever. But it's impossible
Speaker 1: to believe that there aren't others who weren't lucky enough
Speaker 1: to avoid getting caught and locked up for the similar
Speaker 1: type of activities who were just as talented as a
Speaker 1: jay Z or whoever the legends that we have, right,
Speaker 1: So you know, you look inside of that and go,
Speaker 1: what would what would life be like without jay Z? Right?
Speaker 1: What would I mean? How much does he pay in taxes?
Speaker 1: Can you imagine? Right? You know, it's just madness. It
Speaker 1: doesn't make any logical sense, and it's sort of this
Speaker 1: vicious cycle, right, you know. Ironically, in that same task
Speaker 1: force for fourth, they talked about the difficulty of immediately
Speaker 1: restarting Medicaid services friendmates, right, because paradoxically, Medicaid coverage is
Speaker 1: canceled by the state while you're incarcerated, So we come
Speaker 1: out without coverage and you can't fill prescriptions for medicines
Speaker 1: that you need. And we know that the most danger
Speaker 1: time for people who come out is the first fourteen
Speaker 1: days out right, that's when they're most likely to die. Um,
Speaker 1: they're most likely to reoffend and be locked up again,
Speaker 1: which is where you get that revolving door. And there
Speaker 1: are great organizations, and I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: Legal Action Center, on whose board I serve right who
Speaker 1: are doing incredible work on restarting those things and on
Speaker 1: you know, forcing states and cities to reinstate your coverage
Speaker 1: before you come out. And they're also they've been working
Speaker 1: diligently on trying to create a protocol where you must
Speaker 1: be analyzed for mental health challenges before you're hearing, so
Speaker 1: that you can be diverted into the appropriate programs. And
Speaker 1: imagine what a difference that would make. And that's l
Speaker 1: a C dot org for people who want I think
Speaker 1: it's no Legal Action Center dot org. Sorry, Legal Action
Speaker 1: Center dot org. Well, the other crazy thing about the
Speaker 1: medicaid issue is that jails in prisons may be the
Speaker 1: only place where you are constitutionally guaranteed some access to healthcare,
Speaker 1: but as soon as you're incarcerated, you come off of
Speaker 1: Medicaid and you go on to the local dime in
Speaker 1: terms of the county budget in the county jail or
Speaker 1: the state budget for the prison system. So there's this
Speaker 1: weird financial shuffling that goes on away from providing healthcare
Speaker 1: on Medicaid to providing healthcare through private healthcare provider systems
Speaker 1: that are paid for with more local taxpayer money, right
Speaker 1: because the federal government would actually cover it if and
Speaker 1: when we get these changes instituted, which will benefit everybody.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's interesting. I heard about one
Speaker 1: prison in Norway where the warden, when you're first admitted,
Speaker 1: he gives a speech and says, you know, when you
Speaker 1: come out, you may you may be my neighbor. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to treat you as I would want to
Speaker 1: be treated, right, and these people are going to be
Speaker 1: our neighbors. Right. What is the number like five million
Speaker 1: people come out of jail in America every year, some
Speaker 1: crazy number like that, right, And all of them have
Speaker 1: to go somewhere, and they have to exist. And if
Speaker 1: we want to have a safer society, it's really simple.
Speaker 1: We have to give these people a chance ends so
Speaker 1: that they don't have you know, I mean, if they
Speaker 1: have no options and they have to eat, something's got
Speaker 1: to give. And are also a mental stigma that goes
Speaker 1: with being incarcerated. The thing is this always knew that
Speaker 1: I could do better. I just didn't know how I
Speaker 1: would do a crime. Get Caughte not wanted to change
Speaker 1: my life somehow, it just didn't know how to do it.
Speaker 1: But then I would get out and I would go
Speaker 1: to myself, who's gonna hire me? What a felony? Nobody's
Speaker 1: gonna want me around? So I become my own abuser.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not letting myself move forward because I think
Speaker 1: everybody's looking at me funny. Who's gonna hire me, Who's
Speaker 1: gonna like me? Nobody wants a criminal in or neighborhood,
Speaker 1: and that's part of the recent of visim as well.
Speaker 1: Then I'll go do something else because I know my
Speaker 1: life is never going to change. Talk about wrongful convictions,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's hard for me to feel like there are
Speaker 1: convictions that aren't wrongful convictions when every sentence is kind
Speaker 1: of a life sentence in this country because you know
Speaker 1: it could be a five thousand dollar crime or something
Speaker 1: like that, and you carry that with you for the
Speaker 1: whole rest of your life in terms of the stigma
Speaker 1: you bear for and having to report for housing and employment.
Speaker 1: So like juries ought to be instructed, anybody's convicted, you're
Speaker 1: giving them a life sentence to some degree in this country,
Speaker 1: right and I go often refer to that as the
Speaker 1: second punishment, and it takes all different forms, right, everything
Speaker 1: from depriving people of the right to vote to depriving
Speaker 1: them of housing in some cases of there as we
Speaker 1: talked about, of their medications or their coverage. You know,
Speaker 1: there's been this whole movement to ban the box, right,
Speaker 1: which the Legal Action Center again has been involved with that,
Speaker 1: because you know, if you have to check that box,
Speaker 1: you might as well just not even apply for the
Speaker 1: damn job in many cases. But I think there's more
Speaker 1: awareness now and I'm sure that Equitas has played a
Speaker 1: role in this, where many companies are eliminating that protocol
Speaker 1: and there are companies who are out there who are
Speaker 1: actively trying to hire system affected people. And what I
Speaker 1: have found through this work, which again I've been doing
Speaker 1: it in two and a half decades, is that people
Speaker 1: who are out of the system by and large want
Speaker 1: nothing more than a chance, and given that chance, will
Speaker 1: work harder than people who may feel entitled to prove
Speaker 1: themselves because you know that it's just like you're throwing
Speaker 1: them a lifeline and they're gonna grab that life one,
Speaker 1: They're gonna hold on, They're gonna make it work, and
Speaker 1: we've seen such incredible success stories of people coming out.
Speaker 1: Was the guy that who was a carjacker, right, who
Speaker 1: just graduated Yale Law School and was recently admitted to
Speaker 1: the farm or forgetting his name. I mean, I can't
Speaker 1: fathom or or countenance judging Kelly or anyone else who
Speaker 1: has done something that's you know, against the law without
Speaker 1: looking as we're as we're supposed to, at where they
Speaker 1: came from and what they may have endured coming up,
Speaker 1: growing up, what opportunities and challenges they had or didn't have.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not a religious person, but it's pretty
Speaker 1: easy for me to look at it, like walk a
Speaker 1: mile in somebody else's shoes before you jump to a
Speaker 1: conclusion and say this person needs to be thrown out
Speaker 1: with the trash. Well, and you talk about people really
Speaker 1: just wanting to succeed when they return to the community,
Speaker 1: but you know, people really want to succeed before they
Speaker 1: ever get involved in the criminal justice system. We don't
Speaker 1: create those kinds of opportunities, and those kinds of supports
Speaker 1: are just not available. And mental health is like the
Speaker 1: most prevalent illness that we've got in this country, and
Speaker 1: there's not a single family that doesn't have some kind
Speaker 1: of a mental health vulnerability somewhere in that family. And
Speaker 1: families of privilege can protect and surround and provide access
Speaker 1: to care for people and all kinds of installation that
Speaker 1: shield them from the consequences of their health driven behaviors.
Speaker 1: And families that don't have that kind of level of privilege,
Speaker 1: they're just exposed. And you know, it's a nation of outlaws.
Speaker 1: If you've ever driven a car, how many cars on
Speaker 1: the road are going the speed limit? We fledge the
Speaker 1: law constantly in this country. And it's the folks who
Speaker 1: are not of privilege and the folks with more unmanaged
Speaker 1: mental health driven behaviors that end up getting cause up
Speaker 1: in this so called justice system and where they're just
Speaker 1: driven from bad to worse. Yeah, and I can very
Speaker 1: much relate to what Kelly was saying before, because when
Speaker 1: I had substant abuse issues when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: I didn't want those issues. I wanted to stop. I
Speaker 1: just had no ability to figure out how to do it.
Speaker 1: And I even tried. I went to a a on
Speaker 1: my own. One time I lasted five days, and that
Speaker 1: time I lasted seventeen days. Um but you know, when
Speaker 1: you're in your environment and you're around the people that
Speaker 1: you're usually around, you know, it's an insidious disease. It's
Speaker 1: as they say, it's cunning, baffling and powerful. And I
Speaker 1: were just talking about the substance abuse problem. I was
Speaker 1: lucky I didn't have the other problems. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know, for me being able to go away for
Speaker 1: twenty eight days, you know, I've never experienced sobriety in
Speaker 1: probably ten years, and all of a sudden, I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is great, you know what I mean. Like, and
Speaker 1: plus i'd actually drink as much coffee as you want,
Speaker 1: and I am addicted to coffee and I don't care
Speaker 1: for me. It was I didn't know I had mental
Speaker 1: health issues. So it was hard because by the time
Speaker 1: I found out I had mental health issues, I had
Speaker 1: other problems. Not knowing is part of a problem as well.
Speaker 1: I thought I was normal. I thought, you know, there's
Speaker 1: just different walks of life. I thought that I was
Speaker 1: just a criminal. This is just who I am. And
Speaker 1: really it wasn't who I was. It was what I
Speaker 1: was made, you know, because of what happened to me
Speaker 1: when I was a child. So well, I would just
Speaker 1: say that it's normal not to know. And part of
Speaker 1: what normal is is how slow we've been as a
Speaker 1: creature to be comfortable talking about our mental health. And
Speaker 1: the truth is, nobody's mental health is like a flat
Speaker 1: line or always up. Everybody's got a mental health that's
Speaker 1: some kind of a curvy wave of ups and downs,
Speaker 1: and it can be that way over the course of
Speaker 1: the day or a week. And when you're on a down,
Speaker 1: that's when you've got behaviors that are the kind of
Speaker 1: behaviors that cause trouble that may not be just trouble
Speaker 1: with the law, but it's trouble with your loved ones
Speaker 1: and trouble with your family. And we got to learn
Speaker 1: how to talk about our mental health and be comfortable
Speaker 1: with each other's supporting each other's ups and downs in
Speaker 1: some kind of a way that is productive of better outcomes,
Speaker 1: and uh, not be in this state of sort of
Speaker 1: medieval ignorance. And you know, I don't know about you guys,
Speaker 1: but when I go to the doctor, I don't usually
Speaker 1: read my own X rays, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 1: so are we supposed to diagnose ourselves with the pendicitis
Speaker 1: or something like that? So I mean, it's equally unrealistic
Speaker 1: to ask someone to say, you know what, I think
Speaker 1: I might be schizophrenic, right, I mean, you know, and
Speaker 1: there's that old saying, if you're up to your ass
Speaker 1: an alligators, it's hard to remember to drain the swamp.
Speaker 1: And while you're dealing with these issues, because let's face it,
Speaker 1: most people are, you know, living day to day and
Speaker 1: trying to make ends meet and support their family. And
Speaker 1: they're busy, right, and so they don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of time for reflection or to try to find out
Speaker 1: what services are available or even if there are any
Speaker 1: services available, right which they are less and less. The
Speaker 1: other hard fact of the matter is that while our
Speaker 1: medical science has advanced by leaps and bounds over the
Speaker 1: course of the last thirty years in terms of research
Speaker 1: and even finding cures for things like cancer, our management
Speaker 1: of mental health is stuck in like the fifties when
Speaker 1: they invented thorazine in the pharmaceutical industry took over and
Speaker 1: started masking symptoms with drugs, and mental health research is
Speaker 1: underfunded and has not benefited from the same kind of
Speaker 1: aggressive funding and awareness driving that um, you know, cancer
Speaker 1: and multiple scorosis and multicular distreasistic fibrosis, you can breast cancer,
Speaker 1: you can rattle off a whole bunch of physical ailments
Speaker 1: that have there's hard driving research that puts us at
Speaker 1: the forefront of the world in terms of that kind
Speaker 1: of science. But if you're a family or a person
Speaker 1: who's got some kind of a mental health discomfort, you
Speaker 1: don't have the same level of confidence going into see
Speaker 1: get help that you do if you've got something wrong
Speaker 1: with your pancreas or your elbow, where you can go
Speaker 1: in and see maybe two providers, get a second opinion,
Speaker 1: come out with a reasonable diagnosis and a treatment plan.
Speaker 1: For a mental health issue, you can see twelve people
Speaker 1: and get twelve different medic ocasions and twelve different sort
Speaker 1: of sketchy diagnoses, and that at best they're masking your symptoms,
Speaker 1: not addressing any kind of curative approach to what it
Speaker 1: is that's driving your behavior. So there's some confusion around
Speaker 1: mental health that is not you can't just say go
Speaker 1: get help. It's not that easy to get that kind
Speaker 1: of help. So if someone's listening now and they have
Speaker 1: a friend or loved one who's suffering from any one
Speaker 1: of a number of these syndromes. Who do you call?
Speaker 1: What do you do? Whether you need help or you
Speaker 1: know someone who needs help, or whether you want to help,
Speaker 1: you can go to www Dot Equitas project dot org.
Speaker 1: Our mission is to disentangle mental health from the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system. You know, everyone knows. If you're, you know,
Speaker 1: in trouble, you can call nine one one, right, you
Speaker 1: can't call nine one one for this, And people do
Speaker 1: call nine one one and what happens to The police
Speaker 1: show up because they are the first responders, and one
Speaker 1: thing leads to the next. So, uh, you know, if
Speaker 1: you need help or you know somebody who needs help,
Speaker 1: take a deep breath before you call nine one one
Speaker 1: because it may lead in the wrong direction. Make sure
Speaker 1: you're getting health help, health assistance. Never forget that the
Speaker 1: police are not mental health workers. Their law enforcement officials.
Speaker 1: Most police are not trained to handle mental health crises.
Speaker 1: So if you want to help, please visit us at www.
Speaker 1: Dot Equitas project dot org and find other access to
Speaker 1: crisis services and mental health services in your state. All right,
Speaker 1: that's Equitas e q U I t A S Project
Speaker 1: project dot org. That's Equitas project dot org. Go there
Speaker 1: and we'll give you some some guidance and some places
Speaker 1: to turn. Okay, what else? There are crisis lines. Different
Speaker 1: states have put different as a crisis intervention lines in place.
Speaker 1: There's something called the crisis text Line where you could
Speaker 1: actually text for help and it's available seven and at
Speaker 1: least you're getting some kind of trained intervention. Uh. That
Speaker 1: is better than nothing. Crisis text line dot org Crisis
Speaker 1: text Line dot org. The earlier you intervene, the better
Speaker 1: you start noticing somebody's got a behavior that's making life
Speaker 1: difficult and more challenging than it should be for them.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like see something, you say something, and
Speaker 1: you can be polite about it, but you should intervene
Speaker 1: and try and get somebody some kind of help and guidance.
Speaker 1: I was just working for an organization which I'm not
Speaker 1: going to see their name, that I just stopped working for.
Speaker 1: It was support of Housing program for people with mental
Speaker 1: health challenges and um it was a building six stories
Speaker 1: that had studios for people with mental health challenges. Comes
Speaker 1: out at a shelter system and it comes out at
Speaker 1: a penal system. UM Like I was one of a
Speaker 1: peer specialists in the property managers. They're answered to when
Speaker 1: one of the clients got at a and or wasn't
Speaker 1: you know, doing like something proper was to doll nine
Speaker 1: one one. That's not the answer. This is not how
Speaker 1: you do people with you know, mental health. And sometime
Speaker 1: it wasn't even serious enough to call the police. It
Speaker 1: which just they felt agitated or you know, they were
Speaker 1: having a bad day, or and they wanted me to
Speaker 1: call the police for everybody, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: can't do this, I can't. It happens all the time.
Speaker 1: You can have a distraught mother who's got a grown
Speaker 1: son who's acting in some way that's disturbing and out
Speaker 1: of control and frightening, and so a mother will call
Speaker 1: nine one one and the police show up, and then
Speaker 1: in a moment of great emotional distress, you can shrug
Speaker 1: somebody off or make an elbow of somebody away who's
Speaker 1: reaching in or something like that. And then when you've
Speaker 1: got as a felony assault on a police officer and
Speaker 1: a whole series of unfortunate events that that mother never
Speaker 1: wanted to wish on their kids. So you go from
Speaker 1: a health crisis and you turn into this total human catastrophe.
Speaker 1: And it happens all the time, which is all the
Speaker 1: more reason why you have to get in front of
Speaker 1: these things, right, and for people who may be seeing
Speaker 1: early symptoms of something like this, don't wait until it's
Speaker 1: a crisis. Don't wait until you're faced with an actual
Speaker 1: threat to your well being and you may feel like
Speaker 1: you have no option but to call nine one one.
Speaker 1: And to be fair, that's not really what the police
Speaker 1: are here for, right, That's not what they went to
Speaker 1: the academy for. I mean, obviously they're here to serve
Speaker 1: and protect and they, you know, I think the vast
Speaker 1: majority of them are well meaning, and they went into
Speaker 1: this line of work because they had some you know,
Speaker 1: noble goal of helping people. But in that situation, there's
Speaker 1: really no good answer, right you're trying to it's a
Speaker 1: very very volatile and dangerous situation and domestic crisis like that.
Speaker 1: So I do encourage people to get in front of it.
Speaker 1: Go to Equitas project dot org or go to what
Speaker 1: was the text crisis text line dot org Crisis text
Speaker 1: lines dot org. So let me ask what's to you
Speaker 1: the same question? What would be if you had a
Speaker 1: magic wand and could wave it, what would you wave
Speaker 1: it at? What would you tackle for? What can we do.
Speaker 1: What what are here? Let me put it this way,
Speaker 1: people that are listening now and go, you know what
Speaker 1: I want to help? Right? What would you recommend they do?
Speaker 1: And and what can we all do to make the situation?
Speaker 1: But I start with you, Vincent, Well, for you know
Speaker 1: an individual, I would say what I said before, and
Speaker 1: that is, if you see something, you say something, You
Speaker 1: don't ignore a behavior or a problem. It doesn't get better.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't know where to begin, you begin
Speaker 1: by getting involved somehow and trying to develop comfort around
Speaker 1: talking about mental health. I would say, talking about mental health,
Speaker 1: how's your mental health today? Well, it's this way or
Speaker 1: it's that way. Start sharing a language for understanding how
Speaker 1: we are with each other and uh again visit our
Speaker 1: website Equitized project dot org. There's opportunities to sort of
Speaker 1: let your elected officials and local leaders know that you're
Speaker 1: concerned about the misuse of the court system to manage
Speaker 1: a healthcare problem, and try and contribute to an evolution
Speaker 1: in thought and practice around these issues. Community leaders, just
Speaker 1: get your heads together. That solutions aren't always always clear,
Speaker 1: but if you can get the people together who bear
Speaker 1: some contact with that population that's affected by our various
Speaker 1: healthcare and court systems. They can start pointing in the
Speaker 1: right direction together, and we know what makes a difference.
Speaker 1: You know, you get in there with early childhood intervention.
Speaker 1: The earlier the better with kids. You make sure that
Speaker 1: in an educational setting you're not having all kinds of
Speaker 1: harsh discipline meeted out to nine year olds that are
Speaker 1: acting up in a classroom. You have to realize that
Speaker 1: a nine year old is acting up in a classroom
Speaker 1: is a nine year old and needs help, not suspension
Speaker 1: or expulsion, which leads them on this whole pathway to
Speaker 1: justice involvement. We need to develop access to housing and
Speaker 1: communities where we can spend a fraction of what we're
Speaker 1: spending on jails and prisons in order to get people
Speaker 1: into shelter that is accompanied with some kind of support
Speaker 1: and healthcare that doesn't just cycle them back out into
Speaker 1: the streets and into the systems. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that we have to have some urgency about it.
Speaker 1: And we can think that right now, we've got a
Speaker 1: huge incarcerated population, people who have had their mental health
Speaker 1: needs ignored and neglected their entire lives, and those people
Speaker 1: may need all kinds of extraordinary support over the course
Speaker 1: of the whole rest of their lives. But if we
Speaker 1: look at today's five year olds and start thinking about
Speaker 1: what does it take to make a human being developed
Speaker 1: into a successful, well balanced individual who can participate in
Speaker 1: the economy, we can change that over the course of
Speaker 1: the next ten years so that ten years from our
Speaker 1: fifteen year olds aren't entering the system at the same
Speaker 1: rate that they're entering now. If we start getting this
Speaker 1: right with the kids. If you want to help make
Speaker 1: a difference and have money that you can donate, please
Speaker 1: visit us at www dot Equitas project dot org. We
Speaker 1: are working to build a movement to make this change happen.
Speaker 1: As a victim of childhood trauma, I would like families
Speaker 1: to not think that it's going to go away, Like
Speaker 1: we have a very old school mentality about children. They
Speaker 1: bounce back and they're resilient and things like that. If
Speaker 1: something bad happens to your child, I don't think that
Speaker 1: time is going to make it go away, because it doesn't,
Speaker 1: you know, And eventually that issue was going to manifest
Speaker 1: itself into their life, you know. And I think that
Speaker 1: we should erase that stigma of what happens in the house,
Speaker 1: stays in a house. Just please talk to people. Please
Speaker 1: take your children to get proper help. Right, and one
Speaker 1: possible thing to do would be to talk to a
Speaker 1: councilor every school has a counselor right code to see
Speaker 1: the counselor they may be able to direct you to
Speaker 1: the right social services or other professionals. But if you don't,
Speaker 1: if you don't say something, nothing's gonna happen, and nothing's
Speaker 1: going to change in the situation will likely get worse.
Speaker 1: I will also like to say that mental health is
Speaker 1: treatable with therapy and the proper medication. I change my life.
Speaker 1: You know, I have my mental illness under control with
Speaker 1: mencation in therapy. Find it a proper support, like Jason
Speaker 1: just said, is very important. So this has been a
Speaker 1: great discussion. We do have to wrap up just because
Speaker 1: of time, but I want to leave. This is the
Speaker 1: part of the show where I get to be lazy,
Speaker 1: which I like that um so um you know, whant
Speaker 1: smiling because it's his favorite part of the show too.
Speaker 1: So this is the part of the show where um,
Speaker 1: I get to thank both of you for coming in.
Speaker 1: Vincent Atchity, Executive director of Equitas Project and Kelly Grimes
Speaker 1: system affected advocating here for people in the system who
Speaker 1: suffer from mental health challenges. Thank you for both for
Speaker 1: being here and sharing your stories and your wisdom. And
Speaker 1: this is where I get to turn it over to
Speaker 1: you for closing thoughts. Since Kelly's the start of the show, Vincent,
Speaker 1: you get to go first, she gets to go last. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, And you know, I guess I would just
Speaker 1: say that I think of mental health is the primary
Speaker 1: public health crisis, the most costliest public health crisis that
Speaker 1: we've got going in this country right now. And you
Speaker 1: know it's affecting people, It's affecting their families. Violence is
Speaker 1: a consequence all kinds of lack of productivity, depression, I
Speaker 1: think is one of the most costly health conditions there
Speaker 1: is in this country. And where it hurts the most
Speaker 1: are poor understanding and poor management. And mental health hurts
Speaker 1: the most is when the law gets involved and this
Speaker 1: wholly wrong system takes over for managing the outcomes of
Speaker 1: human beings that are really got enormous potential for making
Speaker 1: us all a healthier, more prosperous nation if we were
Speaker 1: to get this right. So I would just say that
Speaker 1: getting this right and disentangling mental health and criminal justice.
Speaker 1: I think of it as dumb most urgent issue for
Speaker 1: our future as a country, even though it is a
Speaker 1: backwards system right now, it's just how it is, and
Speaker 1: no at in this backward system that you can change
Speaker 1: your life around. There is help. There are alternative to
Speaker 1: incarceration programs that you should seek out, and just know
Speaker 1: that there's a different way of life, there's help. Know
Speaker 1: that mental health challenges are manageable. Um some of them
Speaker 1: are curable and you just have to keep trying. Don't
Speaker 1: forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor
Speaker 1: to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join
Speaker 1: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to
Speaker 1: prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to anass project dot org
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Awards.
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good podcasts and association with signal Company Number one