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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording exactly eleven.

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Speaker 2: And it hasn't been easy.

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Speaker 3: One hundred years.

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Speaker 2: That's man.

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Speaker 3: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 4: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know

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Speaker 4: that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know,

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Speaker 4: because my life was discarded as if you know, like

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Speaker 4: I was a piece of trash or something, you know,

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Speaker 4: one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted

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Speaker 4: to do things I wouldn't committing crimes.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: I was a very good young man.

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Speaker 5: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 5: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 5: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 5: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 5: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 5: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 2: They open it to sell doll and our walk down stairs,

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Speaker 2: And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt

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Speaker 2: very strange to be, like I said, to be walking

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Speaker 2: without no shackles on my feet. I thought it was

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Speaker 2: a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back, to Wrongful Conviction. Today,

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Speaker 3: we have a very interesting, important and timely topic that

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Speaker 3: we're going to cover that we haven't talked about in

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Speaker 3: death before, which is the treatment of people with mental

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Speaker 3: health challenges in the criminal justice system and the shame

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Speaker 3: of the way that we as a country handle this disability.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to have a conversation today with two

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Speaker 3: extraordinary people. Kelly Grimes is here. Kelly's been in and

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Speaker 3: out of prison due to her condition, and she's going

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Speaker 3: to share her experience with us. So Kelly, welcome to

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Speaker 3: the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: And also with us, it's a gentleman named Vincent Atchity,

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Speaker 3: and Vincent is the executive director of the Equitass Project.

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Speaker 3: He has been since twenty fifteen. The Equitass Project is

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Speaker 3: a non part is a nonprofit organization that focuses on

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Speaker 3: disentangling mental health and criminal justice. They work to cultivate

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Speaker 3: a shared commitment to prioritize personal liberty and human potential

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Speaker 3: over punishment and confinement. And that's a cause we can

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Speaker 3: all get behind. So Vincent, welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 6: Thank you. It's good to be here.

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Speaker 3: So Kelly, let's start with you. Where are you from?

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Speaker 1: I'm from South Jersey, but I've been living in New

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Speaker 1: York City since I'm nineteen ninety, in and out.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, you're a New Yorker, let's call it

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Speaker 3: yea here since nineteen ninety. That's good enough. We count

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Speaker 3: you one of ours. Now, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: And you've been in and out of the system, and

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Speaker 3: I think your story is an example of what's wrong.

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Speaker 3: It's one of unfortunately millions of examples of what's wrong

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Speaker 3: with the way we handle what should be treated as

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Speaker 3: a medical issue. And now I want to turn to Vincent,

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Speaker 3: because Vincent, this work must be maddening to you, because

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Speaker 3: it's like trying to slay a dragon. Right, how did

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Speaker 3: we go so wrong as a country, and how do

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Speaker 3: we get to this place where we incarcerate people who

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Speaker 3: need help, who are just our fellow citizens, they're Americans? Right?

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Speaker 6: I think it goes way back. But we've been doing

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Speaker 6: this wrong since the dawn of time. Basically, we've got

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Speaker 6: medieval approach to mental health that persists in this country,

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Speaker 6: and responding to people's mental health challenges with police batons

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Speaker 6: and handcuffs and tasers and squad cars and jail cells

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Speaker 6: is just never the right response to a person's health needs.

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Speaker 3: Right, and then it gets worse once you get into

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Speaker 3: the system. And of course Kelly can speak to this firsthand.

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Speaker 3: I know it's a very difficult topic for you, Kelly,

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Speaker 3: but doxically, when people with these challenges get stuck in

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Speaker 3: our GULAG system, they are fundamentally incapable in many cases

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Speaker 3: of following the orders that are given to them by

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Speaker 3: the guards, and as such they receive punishment after punishment,

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Speaker 3: they end up in solitary confinement, which, of course then

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Speaker 3: the spiral goes downward because you know, anyone would go

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Speaker 3: crazy in solitary confinement. But if you're already facing you know,

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Speaker 3: your personal demons, it's going to exacerbate that situation. When

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Speaker 3: they should be getting psychological treatment, substance abuse treatment, other things.

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Speaker 3: Instead they're being locked up for things that they're out

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Speaker 3: of their control in many cases. And Kelly, again, I

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Speaker 3: think it's courageous of you just to come in and

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Speaker 3: share your story and know how difficult it is. So

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Speaker 3: how did you first get into the system?

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Speaker 1: I first got into the system years ago, but my

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Speaker 1: last time in a system was on Micros Island, were

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Speaker 1: I spent twenty five months and I got into the

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Speaker 1: system because I committed a crime, grand merceny, and one

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Speaker 1: I got onto Micros Island. It was brought to my

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Speaker 1: attention at I did have mental health issues and that

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Speaker 1: was the reason why my life was spiraling. The CEOs

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Speaker 1: are not trained to deal with people who are bipolar,

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Speaker 1: who are schizophrenic, who have depression, who have psychosis, which

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Speaker 1: is probably a symptom of mental illness, but they're not

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Speaker 1: trained to deal with that. They are trained to restrain,

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Speaker 1: you know, lock up, you know, and things of that nature.

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Speaker 1: So people with mental health issues usually wound up, like

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Speaker 1: you said, in solitary confinement or in like a mental

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Speaker 1: health part of the prison, which do not have trained

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Speaker 1: professionals to deal with them. They just lock them up.

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Speaker 3: And there are so many terrible stories, and Vincent, you

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Speaker 3: would know, what is the percentage of people that they

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Speaker 3: estimate in our you know, we have two point two

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Speaker 3: two point three million people in prison. What percentage of

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Speaker 3: those people have some of these issues or all of them?

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Speaker 6: So two point two two point three million people in prison,

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Speaker 6: and then maybe another twelve million people cycling in and

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Speaker 6: out of jails in any given year, and upwards of

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Speaker 6: eighty percent have some kind of a mental health vulnerability.

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Speaker 3: Right, And I'd read that statistic eighty percent, and I

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Speaker 3: just I didn't want to believe it. So I just

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Speaker 3: wanted to make you say it because it's a staggering

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Speaker 3: number and it's such a preventable, avoidable, terrible statistic. And

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Speaker 3: inside of that statistic are all human stories. These are

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Speaker 3: all human people like Kelly's sitting in front of us. Now.

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Speaker 3: These are not demons, right, they have demons, but they're

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Speaker 3: people who grew up and for one reason or another,

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Speaker 3: they face challenges that other people may not have.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 6: And it's not just the individuals, it's their entire family ecosystems.

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Speaker 6: It's children and parents and cousins and brothers and sisters

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Speaker 6: that are all damaged by this mismanagement of needs.

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Speaker 1: And also being in a prison system or in a

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Speaker 1: jail is so traumatic that even if you went in

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Speaker 1: jail with no mental health issues, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: leave with PTSD. They get out and they have nightmares,

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Speaker 1: so very easily as well, that you can come in

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Speaker 1: okay and then leave with a very serious mental.

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Speaker 6: Health issue, or not leave at all, because there's a

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Speaker 6: heightened risk of suicide immediately upon being confined in a jail.

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Speaker 3: Right, And let us not forget that amongst those people

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Speaker 3: is a tremendous percentage of people who are military veterans, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: who come in with issues that they didn't have before

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Speaker 3: they entered the military. We send them to war, they

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Speaker 3: come back, we don't treat them right that. We know

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Speaker 3: the problems. Everyone knows the problems at the VA which

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Speaker 3: are inexcusable. And you know one example of that, which

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Speaker 3: is a New York case, right, was Jerome Murdaw who

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Speaker 3: was a fifty six year old veteran with schizophrenia and

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Speaker 3: a substance of Broup's problem, and he was found dead

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Speaker 3: after a heating malfunction drove the temperatures in his cell

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Speaker 3: at Rikers Island to over one hundred degrees.

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Speaker 1: I was there when it happened, Yeah, I remember that.

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Speaker 1: And they hit it. They didn't want anybody to talk

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Speaker 1: about it. You know, there's rumors because there order CEOs

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Speaker 1: that talk with the mates, like you've formed these very

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Speaker 1: weird relationships with your captors or could very easily be

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Speaker 1: your friend one minute and then abusing you the next minute.

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Speaker 1: But they hid that. They didn't want anyone to speak

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Speaker 1: of that.

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Speaker 3: Right, And in case you're out there wondering, well, what

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Speaker 3: was this guy doing in Rikers And here's the worst part.

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Speaker 3: And it gives me the chills every time I think

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Speaker 3: of this or say it out loud. Mister murder again.

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Speaker 3: A veteran had been arrested for sleeping in the stairwell

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Speaker 3: of a public housing project. Homeless veteran. I mean, what

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Speaker 3: the fuck are we doing?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: And he's not alone. I mean, there was the guy

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Speaker 3: I think it was this year last year in Florida, right,

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Speaker 3: the guy with mental abuse who was tortured to death.

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Speaker 3: He was scalded to death by a guard who locked

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Speaker 3: him in a burning shower for two hours until he

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Speaker 3: literally melted. Right, It's like, what the I mean, where

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Speaker 3: are we?

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Speaker 6: Like there is some cause for optimism?

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Speaker 2: Good?

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Speaker 6: I would say this is probably the only, maybe the

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Speaker 6: only area in the American scene right now where there

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Speaker 6: is not absolute division and chaos in terms of outlook

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Speaker 6: on social issues. Wherever I go around the country, I

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Speaker 6: find people across the board. You've got das, you've got

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Speaker 6: public defenders, you've got sheriffs, you've got behavioral health providers, judges,

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Speaker 6: conservatives and liberals who are in a state of near

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Speaker 6: unanimous agreement that what we're doing is totally insane in

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Speaker 6: terms of the costs and the outcomes associated with it.

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Speaker 6: And so I think that there is a growing awareness

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Speaker 6: among operatives in the scope of the court system and

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Speaker 6: the law enforcement system that understand that they are managing

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Speaker 6: a public health crisis with the tools of law enforcement

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Speaker 6: and a court system, and it's a health crisis, and

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Speaker 6: what we need is to turn this upstream into a

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Speaker 6: health management situation. I think that there is emerging clarity

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Speaker 6: about that change in direction for getting this right, and

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Speaker 6: it may take time time, but I think that there

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Speaker 6: is some cause for optimism.

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Speaker 1: Well, when I was in jail, I was watching news

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Speaker 1: one day in the dorm and I saw on the

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Speaker 1: news that Mayor Deblasio funded I think one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty million dollars for mental health for people in the

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Speaker 1: penal system. Then I met a girl who was in

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Speaker 1: the mental health court system, and she told me that,

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Speaker 1: you know, they help you find housing, you know, medical

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Speaker 1: help for your mental health and things of that nature.

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Speaker 1: And so I looked into that. I was able to

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Speaker 1: get into mental health court, which is a court system

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Speaker 1: that recognizes that sometimes your mental health is the catalyst

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Speaker 1: for you committed a crime. And so I was with

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Speaker 1: a long, tedious fight and having approved to my criminal

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Speaker 1: judge that I was mentally ill, along with my lawyer

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Speaker 1: Michelle Halser, that I was, you know, able to get

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Speaker 1: into this court system that recognizes mental illness in any event.

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Speaker 1: Guardian organization called Cases. They took my case. They was

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Speaker 1: the liaison between myself and a judge, you know, to

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Speaker 1: make sure I took my medication, to make sure I

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Speaker 1: made my appointment, to make sure I got therapy, to

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Speaker 1: make sure I found housing. So they were my guardian

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Speaker 1: to make sure I was making all the proper steps

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Speaker 1: to become a productive citizen. You know, back in the

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Speaker 1: free world we call it. I think that Cases and

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Speaker 1: their counselor Steve doctor k McKnight, judge Juan Marshan, who

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Speaker 1: presides over the Mental Health Court, really weird. But the

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Speaker 1: DA of that mental Health Court, she was very supportive,

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Speaker 1: you know, she wasn't she wasn't quick to throw people

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Speaker 1: with mental health issues into jail. Matter of fact, one

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Speaker 1: time she even defended me because I got into some

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Speaker 1: issues outside and judge Marshaan was going to put me

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Speaker 1: back in jail, and the DA said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: let's not put her in jail. Let's just give her

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Speaker 1: another chance. And I was like this, the DA is

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Speaker 1: supporting you know. So this is the beauty of having

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Speaker 1: a court system that recognizes mental illness.

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Speaker 3: And we need to vote for progressive das for that reason.

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Speaker 3: DA's races are so important. Not that many people vote

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Speaker 3: in them, your vote really matters. We also need to

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Speaker 3: have drug courts, which are coming into favor in a

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Speaker 3: lot of different places, that can treat people for what

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Speaker 3: they are well.

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Speaker 6: And you know, I'm a great admirer of the work

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Speaker 6: that cases does in providing careful case management and not

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Speaker 6: just it's not just healthcare, but it's also access to

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Speaker 6: housing and employment opportunities. It's a really thoughtful support of

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Speaker 6: human development. And it's fantastic that we've got the progressive

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Speaker 6: judges and das who get this. What's tragic is that

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Speaker 6: why aren't we providing that kind of support for people

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Speaker 6: before they get themselves in trouble with the justice system.

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Speaker 6: We just ignore and neglect people's needs systematically and then

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Speaker 6: intervene once some kind of an offense has been committed,

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Speaker 6: so it's just disastrously backwards.

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Speaker 1: My mental health issues stemmed from childhood trauma that was

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Speaker 1: left untreated and that caused my life to spar out

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Speaker 1: of control, and it really manifested itself in my adult

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Speaker 1: life because I didn't know why I wasn't living a

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Speaker 1: more normal lifestyle at this point.

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Speaker 3: There are more families that have some experience with this

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Speaker 3: issue than don't. I know, so many people from all

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Speaker 3: walks of life. You know, one friend who I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: of now, whose son was having paranoid delusions and you know,

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Speaker 3: called the cops, and when the cops came, there was

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Speaker 3: nothing there as there was nobody chasing him. There was

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Speaker 3: nothing nobody in his house. So then he had these

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Speaker 3: in same delusions against her, called the fire department, and

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Speaker 3: when the fire department came, he felt bad. So we

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Speaker 3: started a fire, you know, just because he was scared

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Speaker 3: of the consequences if nothing was there for the fire

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Speaker 3: department to find it. And then he got charged with arson.

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Speaker 3: Nobody got hurt. It wasn't a real fire. It was

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Speaker 3: like a little fire on his stove, and then he

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Speaker 3: ended up with five years in prison. It's like you know,

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Speaker 3: these stories, there's just too many of them to count,

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Speaker 3: and the costs of society are staggering, right, I mean

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Speaker 3: for and I think this is one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: why the conservatives have come around in large part to

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Speaker 3: this issue and to activism on this issue, right, because

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Speaker 3: inside the numbers, right, it costs. And this is this

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Speaker 3: is not me, this is the city controller has said

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Speaker 3: that it costs a round seven hundred and fifty dollars

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Speaker 3: a day to keep someone in rikers Island locked up,

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Speaker 3: not including court costs, not including police costs, over time,

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Speaker 3: whatever else it might be. And we have cases where

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Speaker 3: people like Victor Alvarez, right, who's been by his own count,

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Speaker 3: locked up in Rikers one hundred and two times, right

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Speaker 3: because of his substance abuse and other issues that he

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Speaker 3: has challenges. They just cycle in and out, you know,

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Speaker 3: again for people who are you know, fiscal conservatives, or

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Speaker 3: who even care at all about where your tax dollars

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Speaker 3: are going. You know, I'm going to quote from an

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Speaker 3: article in the New York Times for twenty fourteen where

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Speaker 3: they talked about how many of the inmates are called

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Speaker 3: frequent flyers, which is sort of an ironic whatever the

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Speaker 3: hell name to use, but they constantly cycle in out

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Speaker 3: of records island. And this task force identified more than

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Speaker 3: four hundred people who had been jailed at least eighteen

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Speaker 3: times in the last five years, accounting for over ten

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Speaker 3: thousand jail admissions during that period. It said that sixty

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Speaker 3: seven percent of these inmates had a mental health need,

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Speaker 3: twenty one percent were severely mentally yell severely meaning they

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Speaker 3: had diseases like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, and ninety nine

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Speaker 3: percent of them had a substance abuse problem. Ninety nine percent.

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Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. And you know myself, you know, because I,

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Speaker 3: you know, grew up in a world of privilege, right

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Speaker 3: just by luck of birth right. I was born into

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Speaker 3: an environment in which I was not subjected to this

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Speaker 3: type of treatment, and I ended up in a rehab facility,

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Speaker 3: you know, which is the appropriate way to deal with

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Speaker 3: these issues. And you know what, as soon as I

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Speaker 3: came out, I stopped doing whatever it was I was

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Speaker 3: doing before. I stayed sober and I built businesses and

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Speaker 3: I paid lots of taxes, and I helped other people.

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Speaker 3: I employed people, And so that's what's another thing about

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Speaker 3: this that really makes me, nuts is the untapped potential

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Speaker 3: right of people who are in similar situations to what

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Speaker 3: I was in, and who could be contributing to society

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Speaker 3: instead of being a drag on society and living lives

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Speaker 3: of abject misery because they can't figure out, I mean

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Speaker 3: on their own. I couldn't figure out on my own either.

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Speaker 3: I tried. I couldn't kick it until I went to

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Speaker 3: a rehab and boom, boom, twenty eight days and I

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Speaker 3: come out smelling like a rose.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: In terms of lost opportunity, I think it's been calculated

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Speaker 6: that we spend something like three trillion dollars in terms

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Speaker 6: of lost economic productivity and collateral damage to people's earning

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Speaker 6: power and impact on children's earning power when their parents

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Speaker 6: are incarcerated, and some cities and communities are discovering the

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Speaker 6: math just doesn't make sense, and they are in early

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Speaker 6: stages of implementing alternatives to incarceration where they will create

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Speaker 6: supportive housing environments for people with mental health concerns and

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Speaker 6: finding that they can spend something like two fifths on

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Speaker 6: that kind of intervention compared to what they're spending on

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Speaker 6: the whole court process and incarceration.

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Speaker 1: Jason was saying that he was privileged in things in

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Speaker 1: that nature. So this problem, like, is it like a

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Speaker 1: financial or.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think we have two separate systems of justice

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Speaker 3: in America. I mean then that runs throughout. It's one

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Speaker 3: system if you can afford bail, for instance, and one

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Speaker 3: if you can't. You know, one if you can afford

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Speaker 3: a private attorney, one if you can't. Look, if I

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Speaker 3: could wave a magic wand and fix all of it,

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Speaker 3: I would. I mean, these problems are complex and they're

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Speaker 3: not all going to be addressed overnight. But there are

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Speaker 3: things that we just do fundamentally wrong that other countries don't.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So while no one has a perfect system, for instance,

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Speaker 3: and this goes back to what you were saying before, Kelly,

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Speaker 3: in Scandinavia for instance, in most parts of Scandinavia, to

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Speaker 3: become a corrections officer, you have to train for two years.

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Speaker 3: You have to get I think it's like some sort

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Speaker 3: of degree in psychology conflict resolution. They study right, Only

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Speaker 3: ten percent of the people that apply for those jobs

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Speaker 3: actually get them right. And you know, as a result,

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Speaker 3: they have an entirely different environment inside and when they

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Speaker 3: come out they have almost no overcidivism so they treat

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Speaker 3: the incarcerated people there as human beings, you know, with

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Speaker 3: a focus on rehabilitation. Of course, you know, it still

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Speaker 3: sucks because you're removed from your family and your job

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Speaker 3: and your life, but you're not in an environment where

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Speaker 3: you're subject to let's face, let's call it what it is, torture.

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Speaker 3: Right As a result, you have a chance to come

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Speaker 3: out and lead a healthy, productive life. And that's the

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Speaker 3: right way to do it. And it's interesting right now

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Speaker 3: we have groups that are bringing people from the corrections

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Speaker 3: department different states and cities over to Germany, Scandinavia, other

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Speaker 3: places to see how they do it, and they're coming

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Speaker 3: back with it, I think, a very different outlook. And

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Speaker 3: that's one way the change is going to take place,

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Speaker 3: you know, Kelly, this goes back to you. For me,

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Speaker 3: one of the most awful things about our criminal i'll

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Speaker 3: call it criminal injustice system is that we lock women

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Speaker 3: up at a rate that is so out of step

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Speaker 3: of the rest of the world. We have four four

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Speaker 3: percent of the world's population, we have thirty three percent

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Speaker 3: of the world's female prison population, so we have one

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Speaker 3: out of every three women in prison. And the world

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Speaker 3: is big by the way right, very big. It's almost

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Speaker 3: eight billion people in the world. We have just three

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Speaker 3: hundred and seventy million or whatever in America. It's crazy.

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Speaker 3: This is crazy, you know. I don't really think that

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Speaker 3: we have more evil people here than they do in

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Speaker 3: the rest of the world, because there's only two possible conclusions.

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Speaker 3: Either we have most evil people or else we're doing

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Speaker 3: it totally wrong. And so inside those numbers are the

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Speaker 3: human stories. And you know firsthand anecdotally, but you know

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Speaker 3: the number of these women who have children.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've seen women with children, and I've seen

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Speaker 1: women who were pregnant inside the prisons. Also. I think

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Speaker 1: that stems from two like you were saying, as far

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Speaker 1: as the privilege, I did twenty five months on MICROSI

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Speaker 1: didn't fight in my case because I couldn't afford the bill.

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Speaker 1: I was not there for violent crime. I did my crime.

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Speaker 1: I'm not here to deny that, but I couldn't afford

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Speaker 1: the fifty thousand dollars cash bail to get out. That's

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Speaker 1: why a lot of women and men as well are

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Speaker 1: in the jail system and prison because they couldn't afford

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Speaker 1: to bail and do their case on the outside, which

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Speaker 1: makes a big difference for some reason, Like if you

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Speaker 1: fight it on the outside, they call it, you know,

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Speaker 1: jail house talk. Fight your case on the outside rather

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Speaker 1: than fight it on it inside. For some reason, you

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Speaker 1: have a better chance of not going to prison.

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Speaker 3: Right, And let's reflect on this for a second, right,

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Speaker 3: and again inside the numbers, So you were accused of

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Speaker 3: stealing about five thousand dollars worth of equipment, av equipment, TV, whatever,

396
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Speaker 3: toaster rub and using a credit card that didn't belong

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Speaker 3: to you, not like going in and sticking up a store, right,

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Speaker 3: and so it was a nonviolent property crime essentially, right.

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Speaker 3: And so you were accused of stealing five thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: worth of goods and we spent about five hundred thousand

401
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Speaker 3: dollars keeping you locked up in Riker's Island. So how's

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Speaker 3: that return on investment, Vincent? You want you want to

403
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Speaker 3: weigh in on that one.

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Speaker 6: Well, it's just the most insane thing to do. And

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Speaker 6: we systematically waste money and lives across the board. And

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Speaker 6: you know, starting with childhood trauma, as soon as a

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Speaker 6: kid starts showing some signs of having some difficulty in

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Speaker 6: integrating with a school community or something like that, we

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Speaker 6: start flushing that person right away and creating this pipeline

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Speaker 6: towards jail in prison that is insanely costly and fails

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Speaker 6: to sort of optimize all the potential of this great

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Speaker 6: human talent. You know, I had an opportunity. I was

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Speaker 6: at Georgetown University a couple of years ago and got

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Speaker 6: to hear they had been conducting an in prison writing

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Speaker 6: course and there were a bunch of folks who'd been released,

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Speaker 6: and they were reading the stuff that they'd written. Somebody asked, so,

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Speaker 6: how many people that you ran into while during your

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Speaker 6: prison sentence had some kind of talent? And they said, oh,

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Speaker 6: you know, eighty percent. There's a whole lot of human

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Speaker 6: potential that is just locked away at great cost. And

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Speaker 6: so it's not just today's cost, it's the long term

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Speaker 6: cost of what we're doing with whole populations of people

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Speaker 6: and their children who could be contributing to the economy

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Speaker 6: and enriching us all with their talent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I asked Miek Mill I had him on the podcast recently,

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Speaker 3: and I asked him how many people does he think

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Speaker 3: or locked up in this country that are just as

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Speaker 3: talented as he is? And he said, too many think

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Speaker 3: about some of the greatest hip hop stars of our generation.

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Speaker 3: Many of them had you know, checkered pasts, right, they

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Speaker 3: did what they could do to turn a living where they

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Speaker 3: and I'm not saying it's right wrong, I'm not judging

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Speaker 3: it whatsoever, but it's impossible to believe that there aren't

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Speaker 3: others who weren't lucky enough to avoid getting caught and

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00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: locked up for the similar type of activities who were

437
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 3: just as talented as a Jay Z or whoever the

438
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 3: legends that we have, right, So you know, you look

439
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: inside of that and go, what would what would life

440
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 3: be like without jay Z?

441
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 2: Right?

442
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: What would I mean how much does he pay in taxes?

443
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 3: Can you imagine? Right? You know, it's just madness. It

444
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 3: doesn't make any logical sense, and it's sort of this

445
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 3: vicious cycle, right, you know. Ironically, in that same task

446
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: Force Reporth, they talked about the difficulty of immediately restarting

447
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 3: Medicaid services for inmates, right, because paradoxically, Medicaid coverage is

448
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 3: canceled by the state while you're incarcerated, So we come

449
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: out without coverage and you can't fill prescriptions for medicines

450
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 3: that you need. And we know that the most dangerous

451
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: time for people who come out is the first fourteen

452
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 3: days out right, that's when they're most likely to die,

453
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 3: They're most likely to reoffend and be locked up again,

454
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 3: which is where you get that revolving door. And there

455
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 3: are great organizations and that I want to talk about

456
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 3: the Legal Action Center, on whose board I serve right

457
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 3: who are doing incredible work on restarting those things and

458
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: on forcing states and cities to reinstate your coverage before

459
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: you come out. And they're also they've been working diligently

460
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 3: on trying to create a protocol where you must be

461
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: analyzed for mental health challenges before you're hearing, so that

462
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: you can be diverted to the appropriate programs. And imagine

463
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: what a difference that would make. And that's LAC dot

464
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: org for people who want I think it's no Legal

465
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 3: Action Center dot org. Sorry, Legal Action Center dot org.

466
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 6: Well, and the other crazy thing about the medicaid issue

467
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 6: is that jails and prisons may be the only place

468
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 6: where you are constitutionally guaranteed some access to healthcare, but

469
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 6: as soon as you're incarcerated, you come off of Medicaid

470
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 6: and you go on to the local dime. In terms

471
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 6: of the county budget in the county jail or the

472
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 6: state budget for the prison system. So there's this weird

473
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 6: financial shuffling that goes on away from providing health care

474
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 6: on Medicaid to providing health care through private health care

475
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 6: provider systems that are paid for with more local taxpayer money.

476
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: Right, because the federal government would actually cover it if

477
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 3: and when we get these changes instituted, which will benefit everybody.

478
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's interesting. I heard about one

479
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: prison in Norway where the warden when you're first admitted,

480
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: he gives a speech and says, you know, when you

481
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: come out, you may be my neighbor. So I'm going

482
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 3: to treat you as I would want to be treated, right,

483
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 3: and these people are going to be our neighbors.

484
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: Right.

485
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 3: What is the number like five million people come out

486
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 3: of jail in America every year, some crazy number like that, right,

487
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 3: And all of them have to go somewhere, and they

488
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: have to exist. And if we want to have a

489
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 3: safer society, it's really simple. We have to give these

490
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 3: people a chance so that they don't have you know,

491
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 3: I mean, if they have no options and they have

492
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 3: to eat, something's got to give.

493
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: And They're also a mental stigma that goes with being incarcerated.

494
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: The thing is this always knew that I could do better.

495
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how I would do a crime

496
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: get caught. No, I wanted to change my life somehow,

497
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how to do it. But then

498
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: I would get out and I would go to myself,

499
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: Who's going to hire me? What a felony? Nobody's gonna

500
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: want me around, So I become my own abuser. Now

501
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm not letting myself move forward because I think everybody's

502
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: looking at me funny. Who's going to hire me, Who's

503
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: going to like me? Nobody wants a criminal in or neighborhood,

504
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: and that's part of the recent of vism as well.

505
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: Then I'll go do something else because I know my

506
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: life is never going to change.

507
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, talk about wrongful convictions. Sometimes it's hard for me

508
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 6: to feel like there are convictions that aren't wrongful convictions

509
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 6: when every sentence is kind of a life sentence in

510
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 6: this country because you know it could be a five

511
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 6: thousand dollars crime or something like that, and you carry

512
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 6: that with you for the whole rest of your life.

513
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 6: In terms of the stigma you bear for and having

514
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 6: to report for housing and employment. So like jury has

515
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 6: ought to be instructed. Anybody who's convicted, you're giving them

516
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 6: a life sentence to some degree in this country.

517
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: Right, And I often refer to that as the second punishment,

518
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 3: And it takes all different forms, right, everything from depriving

519
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: people of the right to vote to depriving them of

520
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 3: housing in some cases of there as we talked about,

521
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 3: of their medications or their coverage. You know, there's been

522
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 3: this whole movement to ban the box, right, which the

523
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: Legal Action Center again has been involved with that, because

524
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: you know, if you have to check that box, you

525
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: might as well just not even apply for the damn

526
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: job in many cases. But I think there's more awareness

527
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: now and I'm sure that Equitas has played a role

528
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: in this, where many companies are eliminating that protocol and

529
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: there are companies who are out there who are actively

530
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: trying to hire system affected people. And what I have

531
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 3: found through this work, which again I've been doing it

532
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 3: in two and a half decades, is that people who

533
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 3: are come out of the system by and large want

534
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: nothing more than a chance, and given that chance, will

535
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: work harder than people who may feel entitled to prove themselves,

536
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: because you know, it's just like you're throwing them a lifeline,

537
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 3: and they're going to grab that lifeline. They're going to

538
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 3: hold on, they're going to make it work. And we've

539
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: seen such incredible success stories of people coming out. Was

540
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: the guy who was a carjacker, right, who just graduated

541
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 3: Yale Law School and was recently admitted to the par

542
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: i'm or forgetting his name. I mean, I can't fathom

543
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 3: or countenance judging Kelly or anyone else who has done

544
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: something that's you know, against the law without looking as

545
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: we're as we're supposed to, at where they came from

546
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: and what they may have endured coming up growing up,

547
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: what opportunities and challenges they had or didn't have. You know,

548
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: I'm not a religious person, but it's pretty easy for

549
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: me to look at it, like walk a mile in

550
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 3: somebody else's shoes before you jump to a conclusion and

551
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: say this person needs to be thrown out with the trash.

552
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 6: Well, and you talk about people really just wanting to

553
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 6: succeed when they return to the community, but you know,

554
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 6: people really want to succeed before they ever get involved

555
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 6: in the criminal justice system. We don't create those kinds

556
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 6: of opportunities, and those kinds of supports are just not available.

557
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 6: And mental health is like the most prevalent illness that

558
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 6: we've got in this country. There's not a single family

559
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 6: that doesn't have some kind of a mental health vulnerability

560
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 6: somewhere in that family. And families of privilege can protect

561
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 6: and surround and provide access to care for people in

562
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 6: all kinds of insulation that shield them from the consequences

563
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 6: of their health driven behaviors, and families that don't have

564
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 6: that kind of level of privilege, they're just exposed. And

565
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 6: you know, it's a nation of outlaws. If you've ever

566
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 6: driven a car, how many cars on the road are

567
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 6: going the speed limit? We fludge the law constantly in

568
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 6: this country. And it's the folks who are not of

569
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 6: privilege and the folks with more unmanaged mental health driven

570
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 6: behaviors that end up getting caught up in this so

571
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 6: called justice system and where they're just driven from bad

572
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 6: to worse.

573
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can very much relate to what Kelly

574
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: was saying before, because when I had substance abuse issues,

575
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: when as a kid, I didn't want those issues. I

576
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: wanted to stop. I just had no ability to figure

577
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 3: out how to do it, and I even tried. I

578
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 3: went to AA on my own. One time I lasted

579
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: five days, and the time I lasted seventeen days. But

580
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: you know, when you're in your environment and you're around

581
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: the people that you're usually around, you know, it's an

582
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: insidious disease. As they say, it's cunning, baffling and powerful.

583
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 3: And we're just talking about the substance abuse problem. I

584
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 3: was lucky I didn't have the other problems. But yeah,

585
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: so you know, for me being able to go away

586
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: for twenty eight days, you know, I'd never experienced sobriety

587
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: in probably ten years, and all of a sudden, I

588
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 3: was like, wow, this is great, you know what I mean. Like,

589
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: and plus they've let you drink as much coffee as

590
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: you want, and I am addicted to coffee and I

591
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 3: don't care for me.

592
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: It was I didn't know I had mental health issues.

593
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: So it was hard because by the time I found

594
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: out I had mental health issues, I had world other problems.

595
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: Not knowing is part of a problem as well. I

596
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: thought I was normal. I thought that, you know, there's

597
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: just different walks of life. I thought that I was

598
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: just a criminal. This is just who I am. And

599
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: really it wasn't who I was, it was what I

600
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: was made, you know, because of what happened to me

601
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: when I as a child.

602
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 6: So well, and I would just say that it's normal

603
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 6: not to know. And part of what normal is is

604
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 6: how slow we've been as a creature to be comfortable

605
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 6: talking about our mental health. And the truth is, nobody's

606
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 6: mental health is like a flat line or always up.

607
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 6: Everybody's got a mental health that's some kind of a

608
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 6: curvy wave of ups and downs, and it can be

609
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 6: that way over the course of the day or a week.

610
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 6: And when you're on a down, that's when you've got

611
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 6: behaviors that are the kind of behaviors that cause trouble

612
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 6: that may not be just trouble with the law, but

613
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 6: it's trouble with your loved ones and trouble with your family.

614
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 6: And we got to learn how to talk about our

615
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 6: mental health and be comfortable with each others, supporting each

616
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 6: other's ups and downs in some kind of a way

617
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 6: that is productive of better outcomes, and not be in

618
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 6: this state of sort of medieval ignorance.

619
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know about you guys, but

620
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 3: when I go to the doctor, I don't usually read

621
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: my own X rays, you know what I mean. Like,

622
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: so we're supposed to diagnose ourselves with a pendicitis or

623
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: something like that. So I mean it's equally unrealistic to

624
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 3: ask someone to say, you know what, I think I

625
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: might be schizophrenic, right, I mean, you know, And there's

626
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: that old saying if you're up to your ass and allegators,

627
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: it's hard to remember to drain the swamp and while

628
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: you're dealing with these issues, because let's face it, most

629
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: people are, you know, living day to day and trying

630
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: to make ends meet and support their family, and they're busy, right,

631
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 3: and so they don't have a lot of time for

632
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: reflection or to try to find out what services are

633
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: available or even if there are any services available, right

634
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 3: which they're less and less.

635
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 6: The other hard fact of the matter is that while

636
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 6: our medical science has advanced by leaps and bounds over

637
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 6: the course of the last thirty years in terms of

638
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 6: research and even finding cures for things like cancer, our

639
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 6: management of mental health is stuck in like the fifties,

640
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 6: when the invented thorazine in the pharmaceutical industry took over

641
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 6: and started masking symptoms with drugs, and mental health research

642
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 6: is underfunded and has not benefited from the same kind

643
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 6: of aggressive funding and awareness driving that you know cancer

644
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 6: and multiple ssehrosis and muscular district cystic fibrosis. You can

645
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 6: breast cancer, you can rattle off a whole bunch of

646
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 6: physical ailments that there's hard driving research that puts us

647
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 6: at the forefront of the world in terms of that

648
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 6: kind of science. But if you're a family or a

649
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 6: person who's got some kind of a mental health discomfort,

650
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 6: you don't have the same level of confidence going in

651
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 6: to see get help that you do if you've got

652
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 6: something wrong with your pancreas or your elbow, where you

653
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 6: can go in and see maybe two providers, get a

654
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 6: second opinion, come out with a reasonable diagnosis and a

655
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 6: treatment plan. For a mental health issue, you could see

656
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 6: twelve people and get twelve different medications and twelve different

657
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 6: sort of sketchy diagnoses, and at best they're masking your symptoms,

658
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 6: not addressing any kind of curative approach to what it

659
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 6: is that's driving your behavior. So there's some confusion around

660
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 6: mental health that is not you can't just say go

661
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 6: get help. It's not that easy to get that kind

662
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 6: of help.

663
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: So if someone's listening now and they have a friend

664
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: or loved one who's suffering from any one of a

665
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 3: number of these syndromes, who do you call? What do

666
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: you do?

667
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 6: Whether you need help or you know someone who needs help,

668
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 6: or whether you want to help, you can go to

669
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 6: www Dot equitosproject dot org. Our mission is to disentangle

670
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 6: mental health from the criminal justice system.

671
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: You know, everyone knows if you're, you know, in trouble,

672
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: you can call nine one what right? So you can't

673
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 3: call nine one one for this?

674
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, and people do call nine one one and what

675
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 6: happens if the police show up because they are the

676
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 6: first responders and one thing leads to the next. So

677
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 6: you know, if you need help or you know somebody

678
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 6: who needs help, take a deep breath before you call

679
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 6: nine one one because it may lead in the wrong direction.

680
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 6: Make sure you're getting health help, health assistance. Never forget

681
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 6: that the police are not mental health workers, they're law

682
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 6: enforcement officials. Most police are not trained to handle mental

683
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 6: health crises. So if you want to help, please visit

684
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 6: us at www. Dot equitossproject dot org and find other

685
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 6: access to crisis services and mental health services in your state.

686
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: All right, and that's Equitas e q U I t

687
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 3: A S Project Project dot org. That's Equitassproject dot org. Yeah,

688
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: go there and I'll give you some some guidance and

689
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: some places to turn. Okay, what else?

690
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 6: There are crisis lines. Different states have put different a

691
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 6: crisis intervention lines in place. There's something called the Crisis

692
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 6: text Line where you could actually text for help, and

693
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 6: it's available twenty four to seven. And at least you're

694
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 6: getting some kind of trained intervention that is better than nothing.

695
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 6: Crisis text Line dot.

696
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 3: Org, Crisis text Line dot org.

697
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 6: The earlier you intervene, the better you start noticing somebody's

698
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 6: got a behavior that's making life difficult and more challenging

699
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 6: than it should be for them. It's sort of like

700
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 6: see something, you say something, and you can be polite

701
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 6: about it, but you should intervene and try and get

702
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 6: somebody some kind of help and guidance.

703
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: I was just working for organization which I'm not going

704
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: to say their name, that I just stopped working for.

705
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: It was a support of housing program for people with

706
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: mental health challenges. And it was a building six stories

707
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: that had studios for people with mental health challenges comes

708
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: out of the shelter system, and it comes out at

709
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: a penal system. Like I was one of a peer

710
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: specialists in the property managers. Their answer to when one

711
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: of the clients got at a and or wasn't you know,

712
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: doing like something proper was to doll nine one one.

713
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: That's not the answer. This is not how you do

714
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: people with you know, mental health. And sometime it wasn't

715
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: even serious enough to call the police. It was just

716
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: they felt agitated or you know, they were having a

717
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: bad day, or and they wanted me to call the

718
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: police for everybody, and I was like, I can't do this,

719
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: I can't.

720
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, it happens all the time. You can have a

721
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 6: distraught mother who's got a grown son who's acting in

722
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 6: some way that's disturbing and out of control and frightening,

723
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 6: and so a mother will call nine one one and

724
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 6: the police show up. And then in a moment of

725
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 6: great emotional distress, you can shrug somebody off or make

726
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 6: an elbow of somebody away who's reaching in or something

727
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 6: like that. And then when you've got as a felony

728
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 6: assault on a police officer and a whole series of

729
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 6: unfortunate events that that mother never wanted to wish on

730
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 6: their kids. So you go from a health crisis and

731
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 6: you turn into this total human catastrophe and it happens

732
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 6: all the time, right.

733
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: Which is all the more reason why you have to

734
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 3: get in front of these things. Right, And for people

735
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: who may be seeing early symptoms of something like this,

736
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 3: don't wait until it's a crisis. Don't wait until you're

737
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: faced with an actual threat to your well being and

738
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 3: you may feel like you have no option but to

739
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 3: call nine one one. And to be fair, that's not

740
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: really what the police are here for, right, That's not

741
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: what they went to the academy for. I mean, obviously

742
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: they're here to serve and protect and they, you know,

743
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: I think the vast majority of them are well meaning,

744
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: and they went into this line of work because they

745
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: had some you know, noble goal of helping people. But

746
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: in that situation, there's really no good answer, right you're

747
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: trying to It's a very very volatile and dangerous situation

748
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 3: and domestic crisis like that. So I do encourage people

749
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 3: to get in front of it. Go to equitasproject dot org,

750
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: or go.

751
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 6: To what was the Tech Crisis text line dot org crisis.

752
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 3: Text Lines dot org. So let me ask both to

753
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 3: do the same question. What would be if you had

754
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 3: a magic wand and could wave it, What would you

755
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: wave it at? What would you tackle first? What can

756
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 3: we do here? Let me put it this way people

757
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: that are listening now and go, you know what I

758
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 3: want to help?

759
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: Right?

760
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: What would you recommend they do? And what can we

761
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 3: all do to make the situation? But I'll start with you, Vince.

762
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 6: Well, for you know an individual, I would say what

763
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 6: I said before, and that is, if you see something,

764
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 6: you say something. You don't ignore a behavior or a problem.

765
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 6: It doesn't get better. Even if you don't know where

766
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 6: to begin, you begin by getting involved somehow and trying

767
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 6: to develop comfort around talking about mental health. I would say,

768
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 6: talk about mental health. How's your mental health today? Well,

769
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 6: it's this way or it's that way. Start sharing a

770
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 6: language for understanding how we are with each other. And

771
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 6: again visit our website Equitized project dot org. There's opportunities

772
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 6: to sort of let your elected officials and local leaders

773
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 6: know that you're concerned about the misuse of the court

774
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 6: system to manage a healthcare problem, and try and contribute

775
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 6: to any evolution in thought and practice around these issues.

776
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 6: Community leaders, just get your heads together. That solutions aren't

777
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 6: always clear, but if you can get the people together

778
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 6: who bear some contact with that population that's affected by

779
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 6: our various healthcare and court systems, they can start pointing

780
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 6: in the right direction together. And we know what makes

781
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 6: a difference. You know, you get in there with early

782
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 6: childhood intervention. The earlier the better.

783
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 3: With kids.

784
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 6: You make sure that in an educational setting you're not

785
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 6: having all kinds of harsh discipline meeted out to nine

786
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 6: year olds that are acting up in a classroom. You

787
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 6: have to realize that a nine year old who's acting

788
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 6: up in a classroom as a nine year old who needs help,

789
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 6: not suspension or expulsion, which leads them on this whole

790
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 6: pathway to justice involvement. We need to develop access to

791
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 6: housing in communities where we can spend a fraction of

792
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 6: what we're spending on jails and prisons in order to

793
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 6: get people into shelter that is accompanied with some kind

794
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 6: of support and healthcare that doesn't just cycle them back

795
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 6: out into the streets and into the systems. And you know,

796
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 6: I think that we have to have some urgency about it,

797
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 6: and we can think that you know, right now, we've

798
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 6: got a huge incarcerated population, people who have had their

799
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 6: mental health needs ignored and neglected their entire lives, and

800
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 6: those people may need all kinds of extraordinary support over

801
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 6: the course of the whole rest of their lives. But

802
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 6: if we look at today's five year olds and start

803
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 6: thinking about what does it take to make a human

804
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 6: being develop into a successful, well balanced individual who can

805
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 6: participate in the economy, we can change that over the

806
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 6: course of the next ten years so that ten years

807
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 6: from now, fifteen year olds aren't entering the system at

808
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 6: the same rate that they're entering now. If we start

809
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 6: getting this right with the kids. If you want to

810
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 6: help make a difference and have money that you can donate,

811
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 6: please visit us at www dot equitossproject dot org. We

812
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 6: are working to build a movement to make this change happen.

813
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: As a victim of childhood trauma, I would like families

814
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: to not think that it's going to go away. Like

815
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: we have a very old school mentality about children. They

816
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: bounce back and they're resilient and things like that. If

817
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: something bad happens to your child, don't think that time

818
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: is going to make it go away because it doesn't,

819
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, and eventually that issue was going to manifest

820
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: itself into their life, you know. And I think that

821
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: we should erase that stigma of what happens in a

822
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: house stays in a house. Just please talk to people.

823
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: Please take your children to get proper help.

824
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 3: Right, And one possible thing to do would be to

825
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 3: talk to a counselor. Every school has a counselor. Right,

826
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 3: go and see the counselor. They may be able to

827
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: direct you to the right social services or other professionals.

828
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 3: But if you don't say something, nothing's going to happen,

829
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: and nothing's going to change in the situation will likely

830
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 3: get worse.

831
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: I will also like to say that mental health is

832
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: treatable with therapy and the proper medication. I change my life,

833
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, I have my mental illness under control with

834
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: metal cation in therapy. Find it a proper support, like

835
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: Jason just said, is very important.

836
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 3: So this has been a great discussion. We do have

837
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: to wrap up just because of time, but I want

838
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 3: to leave. This is the part of the show where

839
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: I get to be lazy. I like that, so, you know,

840
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 3: want smiling because it's his favorite part of the show.

841
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: Too.

842
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 3: So this is the part of the show where I

843
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 3: get to thank both of you for coming in. Vincent Atchity,

844
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 3: executive director of the Equitas Project, and Kelly Grimes, system

845
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 3: affected advocating here for people in the system who suffer

846
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 3: from mental health challenges. Thank you for both for being

847
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 3: here and sharing your stories and your wisdom. And this

848
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: is where I get to turn it over to you

849
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: for closing thoughts. Since Kelly's the start of the show, Vincent,

850
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 3: you get to go first, she gets to go last.

851
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 6: Well, thank you. And you know, I guess I would

852
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 6: just say that I think of mental health is the

853
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 6: primary public health crisis, the most costliest public health crisis

854
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 6: that we've got going in this country right now. And

855
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 6: you know, it's affecting people, It's affecting their families. Violence

856
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 6: is a consequence all kinds of lack of productivity, depression,

857
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 6: I think is one of the most costly health conditions

858
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 6: there is in this country. And where it hurts the most,

859
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 6: our poor understanding and poor management and mental health hurts

860
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 6: the most is when the law gets involved and this

861
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 6: holy wrong system takes over for managing the outcomes of

862
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 6: human beings that are really got enormous potential for making

863
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 6: us all a healthier, more prosperous nation if we were

864
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 6: to get this right. So I would just say that

865
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 6: getting this right and disentangling mental health and criminal justice,

866
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 6: I think of it as dumb most urgent issue for

867
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 6: our future as a country.

868
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: Even though it is a backwards system right now, it's

869
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: just how it is. And in this backward system that

870
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: you can change your life around. There is help. There

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Speaker 1: are alternative to incarceration programs that you should seek out,

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Speaker 1: and just know that there's a different way of life.

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Speaker 1: There's help. Know that mental health challenges are manageable, some

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Speaker 1: of them are curable, and you just have to keep trying.

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Speaker 7: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

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Speaker 7: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 3: It really helps.

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Speaker 7: And I'm a proud donor to the Niesis Project, and

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Speaker 7: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

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Speaker 7: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

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Speaker 7: to aniessproject dot org to learn how to donate and

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Speaker 7: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

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Speaker 7: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

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Speaker 7: by three time OSCAR nominated composer j Ralph. Be sure

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Speaker 7: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

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Speaker 7: Facebook at.

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Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction podcast.

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Speaker 7: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

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Speaker 7: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one