WEBVTT - Update: Steven Donziger Faces Criminal Contempt with No Representation 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.920 Hey, Drilled listeners, we have a special update episode for 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.000 you today. Stephen Donziger's contempt trial, which we opened this 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.000 season with, is about to start on Monday. There's been 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.439 a ton of back and forth between him and the judges. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.040 Several requests for a delay have been denied. Donziger was 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.839 requesting that the trial be delayed mostly so that he 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.519 could have a lawyer present. So at this point, the 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.560 trial is happening on Monday, and he will not have 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.280 a lawyer present as far as we know as of 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.400 the Thursday before. He is being held in contempt as 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.680 a result of a civil contempt charge that basically came 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:57.840 out of this reco judgment against him and some of 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.160 the plaintiffs and some of the other plaintiffs attorneys in 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:06.840 twenty fourteen. Part of the judgment in that case was 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.600 that Donziger and a few other of the named defendants 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.320 were not allowed to profit in any way from the 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:21.280 collection of the judgment. In the Ecuadorian case, Chevron suspected 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.640 that Donziger was doing something that ran a foul of 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:29.200 that ruling. They asked Judge Caplan to do something about it. 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.560 They asked for what's called post judgment discovery, which is 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.640 to be allowed to kind of look into it and 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.360 see if Donziger was in fact making money off of 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:47.880 getting this judgment. Judge Caplan granted that they asked for 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.160 Donziger to hand over his computer and his phone and 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.200 various other things. He refused. That's how the civil contempt 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.960 charge came about. And then when Donziger continued to refuse 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.400 to hand over his devices because he said it would 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:08.400 violate attorney client privilege, Judge Kaplan filed a criminal contempt 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:13.200 charge against him. That is the reason that he's been 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:18.560 on house arrest since August twenty nineteen, so over a 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:22.160 year at this point. My co reporter on this series, 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.640 Karen Savage, has been following this part of the story 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.760 very closely, and she's joining me today to bring us 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.080 an update on where we're at now and what to 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:35.839 expect on Monday. That's all coming up right after this 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:55.360 quick break, I want to tell you about one of 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.760 my favorite climate podcasts, Mothers of Invention. Their tagline is 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.160 a man made problem with a feminist solution, So good, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.560 and Mothers of Invention is a climate justice podcast like 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.959 you've never heard before. Joined former Irish President Mary Robinson, 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.880 comedian Meeve Higgins, and series producer the Malli Kadi Kara 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.560 as they celebrate black, brown and Indigenous leaders all over 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.240 the world fighting from the frontlines. Of course, one of 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.000 my personal favorites is their recent episode with Mary Annie's Hegler, 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.160 my co host on Hot Take and my favorite person 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.160 to listen to on climate justice. But really I listen 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.000 to every episode. They're all great find mothers of invention 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:40.800 wherever you listen to podcasts. 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.280 Hi, Karen, Hey, Amy, how are you? 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:47.840 I'm good? I'm good. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:54.080 Remind people what exactly these contempt charges came out of, 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.480 both the civil and the criminal. 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:03.760 Civil content charging is stemmed from, of course, the recal 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:08.240 case that was filed against Stephen and the plaintiffs and 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.120 really almost anybody that was connected with that case in 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.880 Ecuador by Chevron, and then the ruling in twenty fourteen 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.279 by Judge Lewis Kaplan was that, you know, that judgment 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.240 was procured through corruption and fraud and wasn't enforceable in 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.760 the United States. So one of the things that was 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.920 ordered by Judge Kaplan was that Steven Donziger and some 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.679 of the other defendants would not be able to profit 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.440 from the collection of the judgment. And so as time 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:43.520 wore on, Chevron kind of pushed back and said, you know, 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.560 we think this guy is trying to profit from the 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:47.200 collection of. 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.719 This judgment, and so they asked for. 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:52.839 You know, they went back and forth in court and 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.080 eventually asked for post judgment discovery. 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.279 Which, yeah, so just to like for people who don't 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.520 know what discovery is, they're basically asking, like to poke 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:03.960 around and see if he is in factoring to profit 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:05.960 from this judgment, right right. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.000 And so you know it, Eventually they Chevron asked for 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:14.400 civil contempt charges, which the judge agreed to, and in 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.200 the end asked Stephen and said, you know, look, you 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.000 need to turn over your devices for forensic examination. 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:21.600 And there were some other things too. 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:23.560 I think they wanted him to turn over his passport, 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.839 they wanted him to sign off on some paperworker related 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.120 to the case in Ecuador. And so I think his 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.720 biggest issue here, and actually it's really important point to make, 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.599 is that he's always said, if the second Circuit says 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.680 I need to do this, I will, So he's refusing 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.719 to comply with the lower courts order to turn this 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.960 stuff over. But with the caveat that, but if it's 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:55.039 confirmed by the second circuit, Okay, once you turn over 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.400 your computer and your phone and all this stuff for imaging, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.520 you can't then take it back. Right. Once Chevron has 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.559 all this stuff and has seen it, they're not gonna 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.159 unsee it. So anyway, there was back and forth. Once 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.480 the civil contempt charges were filed. There was back and 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:13.280 forth between you know, Donziger, who's like, I can't do this, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.880 it will endanger the folks at Ecuador, and then you know, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.599 he just he refused, and eventually Chevron kept asking for 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:27.000 the civil contempt which was ordered, and in twenty nineteen, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:32.159 in the summer, Kaplan filed criminal contempt charges and then 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.800 ordered them to appear. I think it was early August 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.400 in front of Judge Loretta Prescott. 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:39.919 So that's how they ended up there. 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.440 So I know, we have some news from Donziger's criminal 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.640 contempt proceedings, which we started this season talking about, and 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.799 I was hoping you could kind of tell me what's 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.720 happening now. I know they've asked for some extensions and 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.120 some things have been going on. What's the latest. 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:01.159 Yeah, So he's been asking for an extension until early 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.919 December since late summer for a variety of reasons, you know, 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.279 one of which is the COVID nineteen crisis. 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.040 You know, just the safety of people being in. 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:15.520 An enclosed courtroom for potentially two or three weeks, however 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.280 long the trial takes. So there's that consideration to safety. 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.640 And then you know, in that same vein is that 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.040 the witness many of his witnesses are in Ecuador or 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.440 I think there's one in Spain, in different places, and 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.520 so just travel there back and forth is not possible. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:37.760 But the judge has just repeatedly denied request to move 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:39.680 the trial to that December date. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:45.640 And the December date was actually brought up because he's had. 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.600 A number of couple of his attorneys were disqualified because 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:50.960 of their previous involvement in some of the stuff that's 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.800 going to be at the heart of this trial, and 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.680 a couple one has withdrawn and another one is like 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.200 eighty seven, and he's worried about the COVID crisis, and 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.440 so can't, you know, can't represent Steven. So he right 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.720 now just has one attorney, Lauren Ragan, who's amazing, but 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.360 she is in Oregon and is trying to decide whether 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:12.840 or not she can be there in person. 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.280 It's just been so bizarre, Like I've you know, since 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.160 becoming the last of the lawyers on his team. 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:22.920 You know, I thought by you. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.720 Know, taking kind of a respectful professional approach and just 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.960 sort of saying like I'm the only lawyer and I'm 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.000 in Oregon and we have all these Ecuadorian witnesses, Like 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.880 what are we going to do? You know, I assume 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.920 I mean almost every other federal court that I'm in 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.080 right now, which I have three other federal court cases 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.200 of California, one in Iowa, and one in Colorado, and 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:52.120 all of them have punted big selony, you know, major 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.280 case trials to like march, you know, one we have 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.120 a status called in December just to reset it again. 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.920 Like all federal courts are just sort of like, we 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.400 don't want you in our space. And if the client 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.240 isn't demanding a trial now, you know, like if they're 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.680 not in custody and you know, demanding a trial, the 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.120 courts are just sort of like, great, we don't have 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.600 to deal with you right now, you know, by bye, right. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.600 The fact that this court is prioritizing a petty misdemeanor 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:28.360 just really kind of illustrates the level of vindictiveness and 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:32.280 retaliation that's going on here. And I think also just 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:37.160 like you know, the power of Chevron to influence the 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.880 legal system has been pretty daunting. 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.000 But even before we back up, because in August, like 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.080 they kind of realized that this was going to be 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:51.960 somewhat of the situation. So Ronald Kooby from New York, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.160 who's a pretty well known attorney here, had volunteered to 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.600 represent Stephen pro bono. But you know, as do, his 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.920 calendar is busy. He's a really good player in his talent. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:05.080 He's got things planned out. 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:09.000 When we're talking about a defendant who is on home 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:14.960 confinement charges that are among the most minor or the 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.200 least serious that can be found. We are in the 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:22.280 middle of a pandemic, and he has a far flung 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:27.080 legal team that said in the summer, we can't try 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.640 the case in September. You know that, Judge, Let's put 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.520 it on for December seventh, where he can have council 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.080 of choice who's here in New York, avoiding the mature 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.720 problems unless the city is locked down again. It's extraordinary, 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:46.439 it's unprecedented. I've never seen such totally reasonable requests be denied, 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.280 and especially denied in such a nasty fashion. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.120 And eventually the trial, which was, like you said, schedule. 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.719 For early September, was moved until initially it was scheduled. 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.800 For election day to start November. 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.120 And so Stephen and Laura Reagan and them are like, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:04.959 you know, we can't do. 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.760 That, and this judge said, oh, my mistake, I forgot 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.320 it was November third. I mean, this judge is a 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:16.520 member of the Federalist Society. Nobody forgot this election is 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.720 November third. If there's one date it is seared into 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:27.000 American consciousness is November third. So then she changed it 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.240 instead of to December seventh, she changed it to November fourth. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.640 So then initially she changed it to November fourth, and 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.520 then there was another request for delay. And now where 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:38.000 are we at. 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.800 So the next request for delay was really because of 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.200 these witnesses couldn't get to New York. And you know, 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.839 with the COVID nineteen crisis getting worse and worse, New 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:52.000 York is actually fairly doing fairly well with that, but 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:53.360 other places are not. 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.280 And so you know, the travel restrictions from other places 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.080 to New York are increasing, so. 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.679 In order to accommodate the witnesses who are now going 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:04.120 to have to testify remotely. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:06.200 She ordered the delay. 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.480 She allowed a five day delay to kind of figure 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.240 out what the parameters are going to be for what 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:15.320 the procedures will be for video witnesses. So that's kind 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.560 of in the process. Now there's been some kind of 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.120 back and forth on that, and I think she just 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:24.439 issued an order today kind of clarifying what her perspective 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.960 is on that. And so it's scheduled to start on Monday. 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.559 The trial is scheduled to start on Monday, November ninth, right, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:36.240 that's right. And I know Reagan submitted a request to 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.600 basically remove herself because she wouldn't be able to come, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.120 and PRESCA denied that. Right, So why is that, I'm not. 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.400 Exactly sure, other than the fact that it's so late, 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:54.760 why that delay or why that was rejected, But it 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.560 was and it seems, you know, I'm clearly not a lawyer, 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:05.080 but when attorneys. One of Laura Regan's problems or issues 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.640 with this and reasons for wanting to be withdrawn was 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:13.240 that she felt uncomfortable representing don Zigger in a different 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.440 court where she's not used to practicing in a different 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.320 state where she doesn't live. And the normal procedure is 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.840 that when attorneys do that, you know, attorneys will go 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:23.880 from state to state or whatever. 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.240 But they'll have like local council too, and Ronald QB 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.680 is supposed to be that guy. But they won't delay 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.760 the trial till he can be there. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.000 Right And I think another one of her concerns is 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.440 that she came into this case I believe it was 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.000 early July, maybe late June, and with the understanding that 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.360 she would be working with a team of other lawyers, 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.160 and she, I don't think ever planned on being the 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:49.280 I know she didn't plan on being the only one 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:50.679 to work on this case. 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.120 And so that I think is something. 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.240 Where she feels like, you know, she needs time to 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.079 get herself completely prepared. And this is a huge case 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.239 that's been going on in some forms since nineteen ninety three, 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:03.200 and so that's understandable. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.800 The other thing that Ronald talked to me about, and 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.240 I don't know if Lauren talked to you about this too, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.600 but was that you know, a lot of this is 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:17.920 really setting up any decision PRESCA comes to for for appeal, 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.880 and in fact, they've already appealed to the Second Circuit 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.400 over some of the earlier things that were not addressed, 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:32.240 and Ronald QB seemed to think that that basically the 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.560 appeals court was saying, like, come back to us once 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.760 the decision is made. So it's just it's I mean, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.480 that's that's part of the reason that judges will often 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.720 coordinate with lawyers because one of the easiest ways to 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.720 reverse a decision on appeal is lack of access to counsel. 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.840 It's a pretty like fundamental part of the legal system. 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.240 Right, and you brought up a second circuit, which I 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.280 think is another really important point is that the civil 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.400 contempt charges that are the underpinning of the criminal charges 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:09.280 are under appeal. Those oral arguments were heard maybe September, 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.320 but the decision hasn't hasn't come out yet. 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.640 So if the Second Circuit. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.560 Were to decide in Donziger's favor, then the whole thing 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.960 is moved. There. You know, there are no criminal contempt 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.320 charges if there were no civil contempt charges, So I 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.119 think that's a really big deal that I'm not completely 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.360 sure how common that is that they. 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:30.320 Don't wait for that appeal. 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:35.400 So there's six different charges but all together, the maximum 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.880 sentence that he would receive is six months in jail 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.160 or five thousand dollars, which is kind of crazy because 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.120 he had to put up eight hundred thousand dollars in 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.520 bail and he's been on house arrest for over a year. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.240 They have some funny tape from Ronald about that. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:16:00.840 Let's remember what's at stake here. These are six federal 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:07.120 Class B misdemeanors. Yes, they are, you know, a step 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:13.040 above smoking pot in a national park, but a step 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.560 below almost every other federal crime you've ever heard of 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:22.760 in your life. The maximum penalty Donziger is facing is 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.720 six months in jail. So it's not as though this 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:31.960 is a trial of El Choppo that must go forward. 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:36.720 For the massive security procedures, in the concerns that are 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.200 all around us about you know, due process. The eyes 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.840 of the world are making sure that El Choppo goes 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:44.560 to trial. He's the head of this car. 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:44.800 Now. 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.400 Oh, these are a bunch of crappy little misdemeanors. 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.560 In some ways, I feel like Chevron shoots themselves in 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:56.200 the foot because whatever legit complaint they may have had, 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:02.479 this is just so like, so far, Yeah, totally. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.439 And then like he's like Steven Donoker said, He's like, 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.160 this is retaliatory. 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.560 And it looks like that. You know, It's like, even 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.600 if it didn't start that way, it now looks that 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.040 way because it is so extreme. And then you have 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.200 like this judge who's been told that the US Attorney 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.119 doesn't even want to try the case. At that point, 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.840 most judges just let something go, you know. But then 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:31.560 to go and find a private a private prosecutor firm, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.840 and then the fact that they have ties to Chevron, 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:35.119 like it just looks bad. 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:36.400 I don't remember who. 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.920 One of the people I talked to or read something 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.240 from said, you know there are New. 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.400 York we have that's Ronald QB. Yes, yeah, there are 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:46.879 prosecutors everywhere. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.639 Why not pick someone who has absolutely nothing to do 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:51.800 with Chevron, who has nothing to do with anything, and 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:52.400 ask them to. 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.400 Prosecute Yeah, I'm going to play some tape from Ronald 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:56.080 about that too. 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.800 Well. The Southern District of New York was asked by 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:03.480 Judge Camplan to take over the prosecution and they said, no, no, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:09.040 we don't have the resources to spare right now. That 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.960 was undoubtedly bullshit. They have all the resources they need. 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.560 It is, you know, a vast prosecutorial apparatus. What they 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.800 didn't want to do was prosecute this case because the 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:27.880 case is bullshit. That's a technical legal term. Well, there 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.920 is a provision in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.960 When the government refused to prosecute a case, the judge 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:40.200 in a contempt case can designate a private law firm 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.080 or a private lawyer to conduct the prosecution. On behalf 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.159 of the United States of America. Here in the Southern 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:51.840 District of New York, we have thousands of ex assistant 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.800 United States Attorneys. You see them all the time on 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:00.520 MSNBC Assistant the United States Attorney for this other district 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.399 of New York. There's an endless supply of them. Instead 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:09.240 of going to one of those folks and somebody with 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.720 a reputation who had earned a reputation in the prosecutor's 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.560 office for integrity and propriety, of which there are many, 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.160 he went to the law firm of Seward and Kissel, 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.240 which has a long relationship with the oil and gas industry, 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:28.440 and he appointed them. 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.320 Actually, you know, I have some I have some good 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.800 tape from our like one of our first conversations with 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.440 Donziger about Seward and Kissel and their whole background. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:44.159 Over time, we had a sneaking suspicion that Seward and 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.320 Kissel and Rita Glavin and the whole firm had ties 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:54.119 to Chevron. And we noticed that the Chevron lawyers from 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.560 another Chevron private law firm, Gibson Done the Crutcher, which 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.320 had taken the lead and you prosecut and persecuting me 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.960 for ten years in the Rico case, that they were 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.720 showing up that all of my court hearings in the 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:13.520 criminal contempt case, some of their lawyers were talking and 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.240 sort of, you know, talking in a very friendly, extensive 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.560 way with the so called independent prosecutor from the corporate 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.600 law firm. This was back August September. You know, I'm 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:28.320 now talking to you in May. What we learned a 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.680 month ago is even more shocking, which is that they 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.080 finally admitted the Seward and Kissel firm that's prosecuting me. 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.080 They finally admitted that Chevron is a client of the 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:41.920 law firm Chevron itself. 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.720 That's interesting about that is that it wasn't disclosed upfront 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:53.359 if Donziger and his team at that point. Hadn't asked 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.000 for this full disclosure, it would never have come out, 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.680 and even when it did, in reading, the report is 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:01.719 kind of minimized. 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.399 You know, we are free from conflicts and we haven't 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:10.399 represented Chevron in over year or something like really like, wow, okay, 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:21.720 wait a minute, hold them. 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.159 I don't know anything else you think folks should know. 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.480 The one thing that strikes me in their rush to 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.520 get this case tried during COVID is that, you know, 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:33.159 there are. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.680 A number of people waiting for trials. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:40.520 And a good chunk of those folks are most likely incarcerated. 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.879 It seems like something that is meant to send a 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:51.240 message about how attorneys should look at taking on cases 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:52.600 against big companies. 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:53.320 Yeah. 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:55.040 I keep telling people this is sort of like a 0:21:55.160 --> 0:22:00.560 flap on steroids, where you know, the biggest kid on 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:04.359 the block, you know, the biggest spoil and gas corporation 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:12.280 has made it their goal to scare lawyers away from 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.240 doing them, you know, and other industries. I mean, I 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.840 really feel like that's sort of what this is really. 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.840 About, exactly exactly. I mean, think about it. 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.320 If you're a young attorney just out of law school 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.680 trying to decide which way to. 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:28.159 Go with your career. 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.040 Will you choose to go up against a big corporation? 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.199 And if you do, how rigorously would you push that? 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.560 You know, I think the message that it sends, like 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:40.800 like so many other people have said, is chilling. 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:44.320 And you know, when Steven said this is retaliatory. 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.359 Regarding the civil contempt, I kind of, you know, as 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:48.760 a reporter, I'm like, Okay, everything people say, I have 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:49.639 to kind of look into. 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.800 And as I looked into that, with the delays. 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:57.920 And with refusing to schedule in accordance with the attorney's 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.040 schedules and all of these things added up together, I 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.040 couldn't say no, it's not. 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:12.000 Yeah, we will be watching this unfold on Monday. It's 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.119 entirely possible that there will be some sort of last 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:18.760 minute change, because that's happened like a few times in 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.200 this case. So we'll keep people updated on that. 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:23.719 I'm going to go in person. 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.959 Maybe we'll have you give us a little update after that. 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:37.080 Hearing Too Drilled is an original production of the Critical 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:42.240 Frequency podcast Network. The show was created, reported, and written 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.720 by me Amy Westervelt. My co reporter this season is 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:50.720 Karen Savage. Our editor is Julia Ritchie. The show's editorial 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:55.640 consultant is Rika Murthy. 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