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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name

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Speaker 1: is Noel. They call me Ben. We are joined with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul. Pardon me, decond, and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are here. You are you, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. This is a

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Speaker 1: very special episode for us today, friends and neighbors. In

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Speaker 1: a way, it is a follow up or I would

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Speaker 1: see a spiritual successor I love that to an earlier

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Speaker 1: episode that we did back in two thousand and seventeen,

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Speaker 1: we explored the strange case of yellow Stones Zone of Death,

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Speaker 1: a small area of land in rural America where an

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Speaker 1: odd loophole allows what's the best way to say, guys, allows,

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Speaker 1: in theory, someone to commit a crime and avoid prosecute,

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Speaker 1: sort of like a purge zone where you could just

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Speaker 1: you know, all bets are off Billy Nilly, crime Town, USA. But,

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Speaker 1: as it turns out, with today's as with today's question,

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Speaker 1: not quite so simple. So maybe listen back to that

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Speaker 1: episode if you haven't heard it in a man. Yes.

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Speaker 1: In spoiler alert for all of you would be supervillains

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Speaker 1: in the crowd today, it will not work in practice.

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Speaker 1: Do not attempt it. However, in this episode, we relied

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Speaker 1: heavily on the work of Professor Brian c Cult, the

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Speaker 1: man who discovered the loophole in the first place, and

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Speaker 1: he actually wrote back to us and and gave us

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Speaker 1: a few what would you call them, just some feedback

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Speaker 1: on some of the things we discussed. One of the

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Speaker 1: major ones is it's definitely cult as insult cult. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and this uh. When when we received this email, we

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Speaker 1: were delighted because in the course of our search for

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Speaker 1: the Yellowstone episode, we learned more about the professor's work,

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Speaker 1: not just concerning the zone of death. We learned that

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Speaker 1: for years, Professor Colt has investigated a question increasingly important

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Speaker 1: and relevant in the realm of American politics. It is

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Speaker 1: this can a president pardon him or herself? And that's

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Speaker 1: what we're looking at today. But today you see, we

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Speaker 1: are lucky enough to go directly to the primary source.

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Speaker 1: Friends and neighbors, we would like to introduce you to

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Speaker 1: Professor Brian Coult. Thank you so much for joining us

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Speaker 1: on the show. Today, professor, Oh, thanks guys, glad to

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Speaker 1: be here. First off, can you tell us, just in

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Speaker 1: your own words, what what you do every day? What

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Speaker 1: are you studying, what are you teaching. Well, I'm a

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Speaker 1: law professor at Michigan State University and UH I teach

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Speaker 1: towards an administrative law, but my research has pretty much

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Speaker 1: always focused on constitutional law and more recently the constitutional

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Speaker 1: law of the president's things like pardons, impeachment amendment, that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Fantastic, So first things first, Professor, I

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Speaker 1: think what would benefit everyone in our audience right now

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Speaker 1: would be to know, in approachable terms, what is a

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Speaker 1: presidential pardon. We hear the term thrown around a lot,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like occasionally there are also misconceptions about this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there definitely are. Um. Presidential pardon is actually a

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Speaker 1: range of possible things, but at its fullest extent of

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Speaker 1: pardon forgives a an offender for the crime that they committed. Um.

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Speaker 1: That's the most common way it's practice. It's usually someone

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Speaker 1: who's already served their sentence, but the pardon sort of

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Speaker 1: removes the conviction from his record, removes any sort of

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Speaker 1: consequences that remains. If he's still suffering from some civil

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Speaker 1: rights deprivations, like he can't own a gun or uh

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Speaker 1: can't get certain licenses. Those go away along with the conviction.

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Speaker 1: The president can also pardon people before they've been convicted,

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Speaker 1: or even before they've been charged with anything. And if

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Speaker 1: he does that, then by getting rid of any sort

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Speaker 1: of criminal consequences for the person's actions, UM, that can

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Speaker 1: prevent them from going to prison. And if the person

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Speaker 1: is in prison uh and in the middle of the sentence,

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Speaker 1: the pardon would free them. The pardon can also be

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Speaker 1: something less than that. It includes the part of commute

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Speaker 1: a sentence, so you're not overturning the conviction, but you

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Speaker 1: are shortening the sentence, maybe letting them go earlier or immediately. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's also the power to remit fines. If you had

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Speaker 1: to pay a fine, they can the president can make

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Speaker 1: them pay you back. Important limits on this, though, are

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Speaker 1: that the president only has this power with regard to

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Speaker 1: federal offenses, and it has to be something you've already done,

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Speaker 1: so the president can't pardon you in advance and give

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Speaker 1: you sort of a free path to commit crimes that

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Speaker 1: then won't be crimes. Uh. Finally, there is an exception

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Speaker 1: for impeachment because the Constitution makes the impeachment process separate

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Speaker 1: from the criminal justice process. So if someone's being impeached,

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Speaker 1: the president can't do that. Who can't use the pardon

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Speaker 1: to interfere with or overturn the result of an impeachment.

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Speaker 1: Can you clear up for us just a little bit,

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Speaker 1: what exactly is the the state of being impeached and

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Speaker 1: how does that relate to being fired from a job

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Speaker 1: or given having given a vote of no confidence? Sure,

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Speaker 1: so the impeachment process is people talk about impeachment um

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Speaker 1: to refer to the whole process, but impeachment is just

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Speaker 1: the first part. So that the House of Representatives, by

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Speaker 1: a simple majority vote, can impeach any executive or judicial

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Speaker 1: officer of the federal government. And that's kind of like

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Speaker 1: indicting someone. Basically, the impeachment is an accusation, and so

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Speaker 1: if the majority of the House votes to impeach, then

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Speaker 1: you are impeached. But that just means you're on trial

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Speaker 1: in the Senate, and the Senate is the decision maker.

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Speaker 1: You're on trial in the Senate. The vice president presides

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Speaker 1: over the Senate. But if the president is impeached and

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Speaker 1: on trial, then the Chief Justice of the United States presides, um,

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Speaker 1: and if a two thirds majority of the Senate votes

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Speaker 1: are convict then you're convicted. You're removed from office at

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Speaker 1: that point, um, unless you are no longer in office.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole other that's all other chapter of my

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Speaker 1: last book. Can you impeach people after they've left office?

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Speaker 1: But impeachment again, just refers to the accusation. It's like

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Speaker 1: the indictment, Ah, I see, so not immediately in and

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Speaker 1: of itself a proven thing, just an accusation exactly. It

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Speaker 1: was like Clinton, for example, you know, did not get

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Speaker 1: removed from office, but was impeached. Correct or was m

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Speaker 1: I misremembering that centured I believe, yes, yeah, Clinton, Clinton

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Speaker 1: was impeached, Andrew Johnson was impeached. Neither of them were convicted.

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Speaker 1: So it's a it's a blight on the record. I

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Speaker 1: don't know anyone who would invite an indictment and say

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Speaker 1: it's no big deal. But without being convicted. He wasn't,

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Speaker 1: He wasn't found responsible for whatever it is he did.

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Speaker 1: Have we seen a successful full realization of the impeachment

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Speaker 1: process from a president I can't think of one, not

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Speaker 1: of a president, only the only people convicted under the

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Speaker 1: federal system have been judges. M And going back to

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Speaker 1: this concept of pardons, we were interested in learning a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your personal story. I believe you're some

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Speaker 1: of your first published work on this concept occurred in

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Speaker 1: six during your time with the Yale Law Journal, or

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Speaker 1: you wrote for the Yale Law Journal in this regard,

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Speaker 1: When did you first begin investigating this question and what

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Speaker 1: originally inspired you to do so. So I was a

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Speaker 1: law student at Yale and I was taking a criminal

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Speaker 1: procedure class. And people make fun of Yale sometimes Yale

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Speaker 1: Law School for being overly theoretical. Um, and sometimes that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a fair, fair accusation. But so, for instance,

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Speaker 1: in our criminal procedure class, we're talking about presidential pardons,

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Speaker 1: which is not really an important part of criminal procedure

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Speaker 1: in the ordinary course of things. But the professor had

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Speaker 1: some theories, and we were talking about the whole structure

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Speaker 1: of the constitution. And you know, okay, great, how that's

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Speaker 1: how it works in practice, but how is it in theory.

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Speaker 1: That's what we really want to know. So we're talking

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Speaker 1: about pardons, and I raised my hand and I said,

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Speaker 1: can the president pardon himself, and professor thought about for

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Speaker 1: a second and said, I don't know. Why don't you

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Speaker 1: look into that? So so that weekend I went to

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Speaker 1: the library and I read a bunch of stuff, and

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Speaker 1: I came back on Monday and I and I said, well,

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Speaker 1: I did some research and can't say for sure, but

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Speaker 1: I think the better argument is that he can't. And

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Speaker 1: he said, well, it sounds interesting. Why don't you Why

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Speaker 1: don't you write something up. I'll, you know, call it

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Speaker 1: an independent study. You get a couple of credits for it,

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Speaker 1: maybe you could get it published somewhere. So I spent

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Speaker 1: the next weekend doing a rough draft of that, submitted

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Speaker 1: it to the Yale Law Journal. Got rejected. Um, I

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Speaker 1: asked the professor, Oh, should I send it around other places?

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Speaker 1: He said, well, you know law reviews. The way that works.

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Speaker 1: When you publishes as a student, it's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to get published. Send it out to a hundred places.

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Speaker 1: You'll probably get a hundred rejections, but who knows, maybe

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Speaker 1: you'll be lucky, you'll get ninety nine rejections. Uh and um. I.

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Speaker 1: Before I did that, I resubmitted it to the Yale Journal,

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Speaker 1: and they decided to to take it on the second try. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of the main concerns about publishing it was it

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Speaker 1: just it seemed like a ridiculous thing to even think about, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: why would a president, how could that ever happen? Um.

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Speaker 1: This was in the Clinton administration. It was before Whitewater

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Speaker 1: really got heated up. Um, it was before people started

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Speaker 1: asking about the self pardon in the Clinton context. So

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Speaker 1: my first task was just sort of making it seem relevant.

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Speaker 1: So I talked about Nixon, and Nixon had asked his

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Speaker 1: lawyer about it, and his his lawyer said that Nixon

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Speaker 1: could if he wanted, pardon himself, and some of the

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Speaker 1: others in the administration said he couldn't. So it was

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Speaker 1: talked about then. Some people speculated about it a little

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Speaker 1: bit at the end of the George H. W. Bush presidency,

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Speaker 1: which back then was not that uh far in the past,

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Speaker 1: when he pardoned all of the Iran contract defendants after

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Speaker 1: he had lost the election, and some people thought, maybe

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Speaker 1: he'll he'll pardon himself. Um, But it was you know,

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Speaker 1: they made fun of it. They said, this is this

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Speaker 1: is kind of kind of out there, and and what

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Speaker 1: what I think is most important about this? And I

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Speaker 1: and I continue to say this is the fact that

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Speaker 1: it seemed unlikely. The fact that it seemed out there

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Speaker 1: is exactly why it needed to be written about then,

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Speaker 1: because now you see this fast forward to President Trump

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Speaker 1: says he can pardon himself. Now everyone's talking about it,

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Speaker 1: and no one can make the arguments that they have

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Speaker 1: about self pardoned without thinking about Trump. And if you

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Speaker 1: don't like Trump, you don't want him to be able

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Speaker 1: to pardon himself. And if you do like Trump, you

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Speaker 1: do want him to be able to partner himself. And

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Speaker 1: the Constitution doesn't care if you like Trump or not.

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Speaker 1: Either presidents can pardon themselves or they can't. So really,

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Speaker 1: the only time you can can get the real analysis,

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Speaker 1: get the real answer to the question is when it's

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Speaker 1: purely hypothetical, and at that time it was, And so

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Speaker 1: I wrote at the time what I thought was the

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Speaker 1: best argument against self pardons being constitutional. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: uh sort of a curiosity out there for many years,

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Speaker 1: and then a few years ago I wrote a book

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Speaker 1: that looked at a bunch of these sorts of questions.

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Speaker 1: Can the president be impeached while he's uh, after he's president?

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Speaker 1: Can you prosecute a sitting president? Can the president pardon himself?

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Speaker 1: What about section four of the twenty Amendment for disabled presidents? Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's a loophole and term limits where where Obama or

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush could come back into office looking at

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Speaker 1: sort of crazy things like that. But again with the

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Speaker 1: idea of looking at it when it's not happening, so

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Speaker 1: that we can figure out what the right answer is

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Speaker 1: and not what the the politically uh preferable one for

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Speaker 1: us is um and um. The book came out in

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Speaker 1: and the argument about self pardons, I I added some

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Speaker 1: arguments against them. I also looked at the other side,

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Speaker 1: So the book gives both sides of the argument on it.

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Speaker 1: But again in twelve it's still all seemed hypothetical. So

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm glad that I said what I had to

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Speaker 1: say before I knew whether I whether I wanted the

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Speaker 1: president to partner himself or not. Absolutely, And that book

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Speaker 1: is constitutional cliffhangers, a legal guide for presidents and their enemies.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting you spent so much time laying the

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Speaker 1: groundwork and answer asking these questions in a hypothetical bubble

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Speaker 1: kind of and now we're seeing maybe the first example

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Speaker 1: of a president where these questions are pretty relevant because

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Speaker 1: of potential dealings before he was president, with his very

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Speaker 1: complex business network and things like that that maybe haven't

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Speaker 1: quite been in play in the way that we're seeing now.

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Speaker 1: Do you see it that way? Yeah? And so the

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Speaker 1: book tries to sketch out these sort of hypothetical scenarios

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Speaker 1: just to illustrate, just to make it, um, make it

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Speaker 1: more lifelike, give some color to it, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the things that I tried to put in there,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about, like, if this happened, what would

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Speaker 1: have to what would have to happen before a president

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Speaker 1: would pardon himself would have to be a really weird situation.

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Speaker 1: So that's part of the question is when would it happen,

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Speaker 1: what would it look like? And I, yeah, I can't

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Speaker 1: see the future. But I think that the book holds

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Speaker 1: up pretty well. In the chapter on can you prosecute

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Speaker 1: a sitting president, it's sort of I don't know. It

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Speaker 1: resonates a little bit with what's been going on this

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Speaker 1: last year and a half. The self pardoned chapter, uh,

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Speaker 1: similar things, the um the one on amendment which people

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Speaker 1: are talking about. When I wrote this book, I had

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Speaker 1: to try to convince people one of these things might

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Speaker 1: happen someday, it would be good if we thought about

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Speaker 1: them now. And then within six months of Trump coming in,

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Speaker 1: we had three of the six chapters in the news,

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Speaker 1: four if you count the people saying that he should

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Speaker 1: impeach Hillary Clinton. UM. And so, yeah, I didn't I

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Speaker 1: didn't think any of this would be relevant anytime soon.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know we would elect a president who tried

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Speaker 1: to hit for the cycle based on my book. And

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Speaker 1: What's one thing that is fascinating about various conversations we've

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Speaker 1: seen regarding the concept of self pardoning is uh, well,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to go back to the earlier example you

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Speaker 1: alluded to, UM with Nixon briefly in some work. It

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Speaker 1: was surprising to me and I think too many of

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Speaker 1: us to learn that Nixon had reportedly asked his own

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Speaker 1: legal team about this concept way back during his time

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Speaker 1: in office as correct. Yeah, I'm I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: he asked the lawyers or if he just said to

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Speaker 1: the lawyers, what are my options and they came up

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Speaker 1: with that. But a pardon was definitely something that was important.

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Speaker 1: And so the question was, if he's going to get

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Speaker 1: a pardon, does he have to wait and get it

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Speaker 1: from Ford if he resigns, or can he give it

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Speaker 1: to himself, or you know, maybe they wouldn't have even

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Speaker 1: prosecuted him. We're not sure. So it was. It was

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Speaker 1: even then, even though it was very real at the time, UM,

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Speaker 1: it was still hypothetical. And the lawyers said, if you

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Speaker 1: pardoned yourself, the option was presented as you pardon yourself

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Speaker 1: and then you resign, because just politically, there's no way

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Speaker 1: that you could do that and and avoid impeachment. Impeachment

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Speaker 1: was already the process was already rolling. That would have

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Speaker 1: just accelerated it and that would have been the end.

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Speaker 1: And he and he knew it. He knew it would

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Speaker 1: have been the end. Can we jump back to article

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Speaker 1: to section two of the Constitute and just to really

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Speaker 1: go over lay the groundwork of exactly what the Constitution

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Speaker 1: says a pardon is um, so I can pull up

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Speaker 1: my my little copy of the Constitution here awesome article

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Speaker 1: to article to UH talks about the presidency and UH,

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Speaker 1: here we go article to section to Clause one, the

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Speaker 1: President dot dot dot shall have power to grant reprieves

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Speaker 1: and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in

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Speaker 1: cases of impeachment and that's it. That's all it says.

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Speaker 1: So everything else is just us kind of deciding. And

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Speaker 1: with that language, that pretty vague language, you get what

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Speaker 1: I've seen described as one of the most kinglike powers

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Speaker 1: of the presidency. That's how it appears, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's pretty accurate. I remember where I saw that. But

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Speaker 1: it just seems like a wave of the hand and

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Speaker 1: all your sins are wiped away. Yes, and and it

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Speaker 1: is one of the most king like And I think

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Speaker 1: just sort of thinking about Trump and the pardon power,

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Speaker 1: it's it's easy to see why it's very appealing to

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Speaker 1: him because it's the it's the most kinglike, or you

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Speaker 1: could see, the most CEO like. He just sort of

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Speaker 1: signs this paper and he doesn't have to go through

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Speaker 1: Congress um. He doesn't really have any potential for a

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Speaker 1: court reviewing it because under the so called political question doctrine,

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Speaker 1: the courts will not look at a pardon and decide

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Speaker 1: if it was warranted or not. So it's it's unreviewable

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Speaker 1: in court. And he just says it and it happens.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't even uh need a lot of people to

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Speaker 1: uh sort of follow along. It's not like something he

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Speaker 1: has to build support for. If he says, let this

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Speaker 1: guy out of prison, they let that guy out of prison. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's the closest thing, like you said, to

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Speaker 1: what a king could do. And it is, Uh, it

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Speaker 1: is very tempting. I can imagine for for presidents to

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Speaker 1: look at that and think about how they might use it.

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Speaker 1: And we we know that traditionally presidents have not immediately

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Speaker 1: entered office and began exercising this ability to pardon people.

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Speaker 1: But but correct me if I'm wrong here. Did the

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Speaker 1: current president, Donald Trump, as we record this, did he

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Speaker 1: begin pardnering people earlier than in his time in office

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Speaker 1: than other presidents? Well, in recent history there has been

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Speaker 1: sort of a shift. Presidents have pardoned less recently than

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Speaker 1: they did in the past, and they sort of um waited,

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Speaker 1: waited till the end to do many of them. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the earliest in a presidential term that a

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Speaker 1: president had had done it. It was unusual, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't unheard of. Uh. And in a way that's that's

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Speaker 1: actually a good thing because the design of the pardon power,

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Speaker 1: we talked about it being a king like power, but remember,

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Speaker 1: the president is not a king, and the whole reason

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Speaker 1: to give the president this power instead of giving it

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Speaker 1: to say, Congress, by a congressional vote, you give it

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Speaker 1: to the president because the president is politically accountable. He's

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Speaker 1: always uh politically accountable, even though he doesn't run for

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Speaker 1: re election for two more years, even if he's in

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Speaker 1: his second term and not going to be running for

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Speaker 1: re election, he's politically accountable to the whole country all

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Speaker 1: at once. He's got a political capital to spend UM.

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Speaker 1: And that's where the framers of the Constitution wanted the

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Speaker 1: power to reside. So if presidents do what UH President

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Speaker 1: Obama did by waiting until after the election to commute

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Speaker 1: all of those um sentences in the um disproportionate UH

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Speaker 1: sentences for for drug offenses. He's been talking about it,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't do it until after the election. Or

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Speaker 1: President Clinton on his last day in office, partnering Mark

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Speaker 1: Rich partnering Susan McDougall, partnering Roger Clinton, his own brother,

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Speaker 1: waiting until after the election when he's not at all

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Speaker 1: politically accountable. Or President George H. W. Bush partnering the

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Speaker 1: Iran countradefendant again after the election, the president is supposed

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Speaker 1: to be politically accountable. It's it's sort of this this

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Speaker 1: little loophole that he still has the power even when

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Speaker 1: he's not. But that's not how it's supposed to work.

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Speaker 1: So on president's partner early, that's good because then that

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Speaker 1: means that Congress can respond and the voters can respond

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Speaker 1: in the term elections or in the presidential election. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be right back with more from Professor called

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Speaker 1: after a quick sponsor break, and we're back. Professor. Please

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: make a statement here that is what I believe to

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Speaker 1: be true. Um. My understanding is that much of law

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Speaker 1: is based upon the previous findings and judgments that have occurred.

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Speaker 1: Like the guiding principles of what is now law is

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Speaker 1: from the past. Right, Yes, to the extent that we

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Speaker 1: have precedent, we take those precedents seriously or are bound

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Speaker 1: by them, depending on what kind of precedent it is.

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Speaker 1: Is there any foundational case or precedent that has to

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Speaker 1: do with this at all? A president partnering himself, Well,

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Speaker 1: we we don't have any case law directly on point

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Speaker 1: on presidents partnering themselves. Um. The argument against self pardons

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Speaker 1: relies on a whole bunch of theories and doctrines that

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Speaker 1: haven't really been tested either. It really is uh fair

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Speaker 1: to say that if a president did this, it would

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Speaker 1: be completely unprecedented. Now, I'll let me back up a

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Speaker 1: little bit. There are cases in the past of other

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Speaker 1: people with pardon powers purporting to pardon themselves, mayors and governors,

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Speaker 1: and um, those those cases are sort of obscure. They

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Speaker 1: hadn't really been um tested in court, and so we

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Speaker 1: don't have any precedent from those either. But even if

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Speaker 1: we did. The US Constitution presidential pardon power is different,

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Speaker 1: is distinct from any state or local pardon power. What

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Speaker 1: was Dr Bonham's case, So this this was a British

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Speaker 1: case back in the seventeenth century, and uh the issue

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Speaker 1: in that case is, I would say, the power of

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Speaker 1: Parliament over the king um and the power of the

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Speaker 1: common law over the parliament. Um. So I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's sort of a fundamental case for judicial review.

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Speaker 1: People think about it as looking at the ability of

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Speaker 1: courts to strike down statutes or not. Um. I haven't

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Speaker 1: thought about it much in terms of the pardon power.

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Speaker 1: But basically the principle of bonds case. What you'll see

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Speaker 1: it's cited for is people will say, if there's a

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Speaker 1: statute that Parliament passes, because this is an English case

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Speaker 1: and it's contrary to what what have you natural law

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Speaker 1: or common right and reason was was how they put

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Speaker 1: in that case, then then the judges have to, uh,

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Speaker 1: they have to declare it void. And so again this

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Speaker 1: sort of spawned the concept of judicial review. A court

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Speaker 1: looking at something that Congress has done or that a

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Speaker 1: president has done, if it's illegal, um, then the court

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Speaker 1: has to say so, they have to say what the

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Speaker 1: law is. And if the law is that the statute

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Speaker 1: is unconstitutional, then they're supposed to say so. The actual

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Speaker 1: case was about, you know, sort of a weird medical

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Speaker 1: licensing issue back in seventeenth century England. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: I'm not real up to date on what exactly was

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Speaker 1: going on. Dr Bonham and himself. The Washington Post just

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Speaker 1: cited it as the foundational case for possibly this subject.

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Speaker 1: And as we're speaking about some popular sources of media

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Speaker 1: and news here in the US, professor, earlier in May

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Speaker 1: of seventeen, you wrote a piece for the Wall Street

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Speaker 1: Journal about the twenty five Amendment, and specifically section four.

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Speaker 1: I believe we mentioned it briefly at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: our conversation today, but I was wondering if you could

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Speaker 1: tell us and the audience what what the significance of

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Speaker 1: section four of the amendment is in this conversation. Well.

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Speaker 1: Section four of the twenty Amendment is where the sections

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Speaker 1: three and four deal with presidential disability. If the president

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Speaker 1: is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, then, um.

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Speaker 1: The section three allows him to say so and hand

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Speaker 1: over power to the vice president, and then when he's better,

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Speaker 1: he says, okay, I'm better now and he takes power back.

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Speaker 1: Section four is for when the president can't declare that

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Speaker 1: he's disabled or won't, and it allows the vice president

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Speaker 1: and the majority of the cabinet to declare that the

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Speaker 1: president is unable to discharge the powers and duties of

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Speaker 1: his office. Then the vice president becomes acting president. Um.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't remove the president from office. Um, And the

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Speaker 1: president is still in office. He just is temporarily stripped

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Speaker 1: of his powers and he can say I'm not disabled

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Speaker 1: either right then if if there's a disagreement there or

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Speaker 1: if he's unconscious, once he regains consciousness, he can say

429
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: I'm fine. Uh. If the vice president and cabinet disagree,

430
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: then it goes to Congress and Congress has to decide.

431
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: But the deck is stacked very heavily in favor of

432
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: the president. There needs to be two thirds in the

433
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: House and two thirds in the Senate agreeing that he's

434
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: unable to do his job before before he loses. So

435
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: it's it's really um, it's never been used. Section three

436
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: has been used. President's going in for coolin Oscary's going

437
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: to be unconscious for a couple of hours. Uh, he

438
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: hands over power to the vice president. That's happened three times.

439
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: But section four has never been used. And um, you

440
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: know a lot of people look at it and think, oh, well,

441
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: if if the president is nuts, then the vice president

442
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: and cabinet should say so, and then then that will

443
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: remove him from office. But it won't. If he's lucid

444
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: enough to contest the action, it would probably result in

445
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: him getting his powers back within a few days, and

446
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: and now he'd be mad. So it's not I'm not

447
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: sure how it relates two self pardons, other than the

448
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: possibility that if they thought he was about to try

449
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: to pardon himself. Maybe they could invoke section four. Um,

450
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: I went, I went and found the Washington Post piece

451
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: you're talking about. I I had read it before h

452
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: Lawrence Tribe normas, and it's one of these things and

453
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: and I and I should say this in in in general,

454
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: a lot of the discussion about presidential self pardons gets

455
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: these headlines. And it's not always the authors that that

456
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: that's say that. Sometimes it's just the headline over simplifying.

457
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: But the headline says, no, Trump can't pardon himself. The

458
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: Constitution tells us so. And you can find things that

459
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: are equally certain of people saying yes, Trump can pardon himself.

460
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: The Constitution tells us so, and they're both wrong. The

461
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: Constitution doesn't tell us one way or the other. We've

462
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: got it's it's Schrodinger's cat, right. We won't know until

463
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: there's an actual case and when and if it happens

464
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: a chortal rule on it, then we'll know. All we

465
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: can say at this point is we don't know. The

466
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: president can try. It might work, it might not. And

467
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: we can say, here's what I would say if I

468
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: were a judge, and I would agree with um tribe

469
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: painter and Eisen and this Washington Post piece saying, um,

470
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: I think the best reading of the Constitution is that

471
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: the president can't pardon himself. But um, there are good

472
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: arguments on both sides. And I found where they talked

473
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: about on the versus College of Physicians that was there

474
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: their um source for the notion that you can't be

475
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: the judge in your own case. I'm I'm actually kind

476
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: of proud that it didn't occur to me to link

477
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: Bonham's case with self pardons, because I think that's a

478
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: very roundabout, in obscure way to get to that point.

479
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: One of the main arguments that the president can't pardon

480
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: himself is that you can't be the judge in your

481
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: own case. And remember I said that it was about

482
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: some obscure medical licensing issue. Well, it turns out that's

483
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: the part of the case that they were drawing on,

484
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: which is why I didn't even didn't even occur to it.

485
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: It didn't even occur to me. Isn't there also the

486
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: notion that a pardon is inherently the nature of it

487
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: is that it's for someone else. Yes, So that was

488
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: the main argument that I added in in two thousand twelve.

489
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: Friend of mine in law school. When I was writing

490
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: this original article is only thirty pages long. I couldn't

491
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: put in everything I wanted. He said, you should argue

492
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: a textual argument that the pardon is something that's inherently bilateral.

493
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: It's something you have to give someone else, not something

494
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: you give it yourself. And I said, now, I don't know.

495
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: I don't think so, I don't. I don't want to

496
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: make room for that. Then, uh, sixteen years later, when

497
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm writing it, it occurs to me that I think

498
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: about it more that that's not actually worth including, that's

499
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: not just worth including. That's actually the best argument there is.

500
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: All of this other stuff is um sort of well,

501
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: like you can't be a judge in your own case.

502
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: Of courts will say you can't be the judge in

503
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: your own case when they're ruling against you being the

504
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: judge in your own case. But there are other instances

505
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: where they allow all kinds of self dealing, and they

506
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: conveniently forget to mention that. But if you can find

507
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: something in the text of the Constitution itself, that's the

508
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: best kind of argument for me, that's persuasive to me.

509
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: So with that argument, the idea is Um. The argument

510
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: that the president can part himself is it doesn't say

511
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: he can't. It says he shall have power to grant pardons,

512
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: and and it says there's an exception for impeachment. It

513
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: doesn't have any other exceptions. They say, well, if they

514
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: want to make an exception, then they would have said,

515
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: and they didn't. So he can do he can do it.

516
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: But there are limits inherent in what the definition of

517
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: a pardon or granting a pardon is in itself. So,

518
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: for instance, I mentioned before, you can't pardon someone for

519
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: something he hasn't done yet. You can only pardon past acts.

520
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: Um doesn't say that anywhere in the Constitution. Where do

521
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: they get that from. Well, the courts are very clear

522
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: that you can only pardon things that have already happened.

523
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: But Uh, it's inherent in the notion of what a

524
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: pardon is. So this argument is the same thing that

525
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: a pardon is just by definition, something you give to

526
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: someone else. And you can look at other words that

527
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: have the same Latin root, Uh, pardon are um, like

528
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: donate or condone. Like you wouldn't say I condone my

529
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: own actions. That doesn't make sense. You wouldn't say I'm

530
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: making a donation to myself. That doesn't make sense. If

531
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: you said pardon me, you're asking for other is to

532
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: excuse something that you have done. Just in like a

533
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: social situation. If I say pardon me, Matt, where I

534
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: have belts or something, Matt would say of course, good sir,

535
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, yeah and stop a built directions. Yes that

536
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: that probably also has UH roots in in Mary Old

537
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: England too, But um, I think in addition to the

538
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: argument that a pardon is inherently something you give to

539
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: someone else, and the notion that the courts disapprove of

540
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: people being the judge in their own case, there's also

541
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: a historical argument based on how the UH people debating

542
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: the Constitution the Constitutional Convention talked about pardon powers. They

543
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: were worried about giving the pardon power to the president,

544
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: and um Edmund Randolph, one of the delegates, proposed this

545
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: is all recorded in James Madison's notes. Edmund Randolph said, well,

546
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: we we need to make an exception. We need to

547
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: not allow presidents to pardon people for treason. And the

548
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: reason he said was the president may himself be guilty.

549
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: He said, the traders maybe his own instruments and so

550
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: we can't let the president of the power to pardon

551
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: these other traders that he's a trader along with and um.

552
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: James Wilson Lay, another delegate later on the Supreme Court responded.

553
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: He said, if the president be himself a party to

554
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: the guilt, he can be impeached and prosecuted. And everyone said, oh, yeah,

555
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: that's right. And they voted and rejected Randolph's motion, and

556
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: they didn't restrict the pardon power for cases of treason,

557
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: and they didn't talk about self pardons. But what what

558
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: this tells us is, first of all, if any of

559
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: those people thought that the president could pardon himself, the

560
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: notion that well, if the president's guilty, we can just

561
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: prosecute him, that wouldn't have been persuasive at all. And

562
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: no one, no one said that, So they must not

563
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: have thought that the president can pardon himself. Um. Additionally,

564
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: if if anyone thought the president could partner himself, then

565
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: they would have talked about restricting that, not saying he

566
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: couldn't parton traitors, but that he couldn't partner himself. But

567
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: they didn't. Um. They did they say the president can

568
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 1: partner himself. No, But I think that that little piece

569
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: of evidence shows that they thought that. It literally went

570
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: without saying that a self pardon is not possible. I

571
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: think I think that there is an argument on the

572
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: other side of this, which is um that the president

573
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: is both the sovereign and a person, and so he

574
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: can pardon himself because it's it would be Trump, the

575
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: president giving a pardon to Trump the person, and so

576
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: it's inherently bilateral that way. So you know, it's not

577
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: a it's not a killer argument, Like I said, they're

578
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: good arguments on both sides, but to me, it's a

579
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: it's a pretty persuasive one. I think it's the best

580
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: argument against self pardons because again, it's in the Constitution,

581
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: it's inherent in the definition of the word parton itself. Absolutely,

582
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: But where does this lead us? We'll be back after

583
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. Going off our hypothetical pardon

584
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: me example, Let's go into the realm of speculation just

585
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: just a bit. Let's imagine that the current president or

586
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: just any president does somehow successfully attempt this move this

587
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: this they successfully pardon themselves. What would happen afterward? What

588
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: sort of impact would this have on the US government?

589
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: On the hearts and minds of the public. What what

590
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: kind of consequences or implications could we possibly expect if

591
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 1: something like this were ever to occur. Yeah, I think

592
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: ultimately that's the most important question because, Um, just like impeachment,

593
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: the pardon power exists in a in a political context.

594
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: If the president thinks it's a good idea to pardon someone,

595
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: then he does it, and and that's why he has

596
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: the power. And so thinking about how it would look

597
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: in my own writing, I set up this hypothetical example

598
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: of a president who has been accused of all these crimes,

599
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: and there's some questions whether you can prosecute the while

600
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: they're in office. So he's running for uh, he's in

601
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: the second term. So there's there's an election going on

602
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 1: and it's very divisive, and and the the other party

603
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 1: is saying the president's a crook, and if I get

604
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: elected the Kennedy the other party says, if I get elected,

605
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to appoint this guy as prosecutor and we're

606
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: going to go after the president, kind of like what

607
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: Trump was saying he would do about Hillary Clinton, although

608
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: he didn't end up doing it. Um, And that person

609
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: wins the election, and the president has been saying all along,

610
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything wrong, and my my people and

611
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: my administration, I haven't done anything wrong. And and so

612
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: he he waits until again he's not politically accountable anymore,

613
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: and he says, um, well, just I'll just read here.

614
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: He says, for ten months, these scurless accusations have paralyzed

615
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: the country. We've been unable to work on the real

616
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: problems Americans face. That problem was about to get worse.

617
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: Enough is enough with this pardon. I'm ending this expensive distraction. Right.

618
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: He has the power to to do this, and he's

619
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: going to use it. So that's how the president, I

620
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: think most likely would frame it. That he's not forgiving

621
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: himself for doing something wrong, he is preventing these runaway

622
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: prosecutors from doing an injust just to him. That's how

623
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: he would spend it, and certain percentage of the country

624
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: would probably go along with that. So politically, the question

625
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: would be how many people would buy that, uh, that

626
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: line of rhetoric. I think it would be a scandalous

627
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: enough act to enough people that the president would wait

628
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: until he was on his way out of office to

629
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: do it, especially if he couldn't be prosecuted while in office,

630
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: that's an open question too. But if you can't prosecute

631
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: the president while he's in office, and you can, if

632
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: you're the president, pardon someone who hasn't been charged with

633
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: anything yet, um, then that sets up this potential. So

634
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: on his way out of office, he pardons himself. If

635
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: he's on his way out of office, then the political

636
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: fallout is much less. So to answer your question, if

637
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: the president is not on his way out of office,

638
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: if they're pursuing him and he says I'm just gonna

639
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna pardon myself, I think the political file

640
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: would be tremendous. I think the prosecutor who was pursuing

641
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: him would not just say, oh, I guess I can't

642
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: prosecute you. Then he would challenge it in court because

643
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: it's not clear that the president can partner himself. It

644
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: would be uh swiftly appealed up to the Supreme Court,

645
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: I think, um, but it would it would. It would

646
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: be a divisive issue, and the people who agree with

647
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: the president that he didn't do anything wrong would think

648
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: it's great. And the people who disagree with the president

649
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: and I think that, um, he's a crook, would think

650
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: that it's terrible, and I think there'd be a lot

651
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: of people in the middle who would say, I don't

652
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: know what happened, if he's a crook or not. But

653
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that partnering yourself is okay. I think

654
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, you need to you need to not put

655
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: yourself above the law. You need to let other people

656
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: make that decision. And that takes us back to Nixon,

657
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: and we talked about, um, what would have happened if

658
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: Nixon had pardoned himself. We can only speculate, but we

659
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: do know what happened after Nixon resigned and shortly thereafter

660
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: Gerald Ford, who came into office untouched by the whole

661
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: Watergate scandal. He had very high approval ratings and he

662
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: decides he's going to pardon Nixon, and immediately it's very

663
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: controversial decision. His approval ratings drop. Most of the data

664
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: that I've seen suggest it cost him the election in

665
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Two years later, he's running for re election.

666
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: He are not re election, but uh to stay in

667
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: office for four more years, and he narrowly loses. He

668
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: It was a close election. And if you and if

669
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: you look at the data, what people thought about that pardon.

670
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: That pardon cost him the election, So you can only

671
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: imagine how much worse it would be if Nixon had

672
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: done it himself. Ford said, we've got to move on.

673
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: This is the right thing to do. If Nixon had

674
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: said that, it wouldn't have been convincing at all. Um. So, So, politically,

675
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: if the president is still in office, it would be

676
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: a it would be throwing a bomb. Um. If he's

677
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: on his way out of office, it would be controversial,

678
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: but he wouldn't be president anymore, So it wouldn't It

679
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: would be tabloid fodder, right, it would be cable news fodder,

680
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: but it wouldn't It wouldn't have the same sort of

681
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: political impact. I think everyone would just wait and see

682
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: what the courts had to say about it. But then

683
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: on the flip side of the uh speculative world, we're

684
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: exploring here, what if a standing president or president on

685
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: the way out attempts to self pardon and that attempt fails,

686
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: would they wouldn't they still encounter uh the same enormous

687
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 1: potential for backlash Because I imagine a lot of people

688
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: who were going back to what you said about the supporters,

689
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: thinking it's a good idea, the opponents thinking it's a

690
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: bad idea. Wouldn't a lot of people in the the

691
00:42:54,040 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: anti administration side see that as uh an a smoking

692
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: gun more or less indicating some sort of truth to

693
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: all the problems they had with that administration. Well, I

694
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: think they could. They could look at that and say, see,

695
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: see what kind of person this is? Um. But I

696
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: think that supporters would say what they've been saying all along,

697
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: if they if they have supported him this long, in

698
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: saying that the accusations against him are false, they would

699
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: probably go along for the ride there too. Um. And

700
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: And that's an important thing about pardons that I think

701
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: is overlooked a lot. I had a piece. I don't

702
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: know if anyone saw it, um, but I I but

703
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: I liked it. It was in the New York Daily News,

704
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: um a few weeks ago, where you hear people say

705
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: this a lot that pardon is a declaration of guilt,

706
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: and that accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. Um.

707
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: And and so you, yeah, you might you might have

708
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: people saying, uh, see he pardoned himself. That means he's

709
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: admitting he was guilty. But that's that's actually not right. Um.

710
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: That notion that a pardon is an admission of guilt,

711
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. Is uh

712
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 1: taking this one line from this one Supreme Court case

713
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: out of context and reading it into a completely different

714
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: one and and really missing the point. Presidents almost always

715
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 1: use pardons to forgive guilty people who maybe don't deserve

716
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: the punishment that they got UM. But they can also

717
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: Presidents can also use the pardon power to exonerate people.

718
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: And and it's not the most usual use of it,

719
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: but sometimes they do. President Ford pardon Nixon forgiving someone

720
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: who is guilty. He also pardoned Tokyo Rose. She had

721
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: been convicted of making propaganda broadcast during World War two UM,

722
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: and she was an American citizen living in Japan, and

723
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: they said, oh, she was broadcasting these terrible things. Turns

724
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: out sixty Minutes does a story. It turns out the

725
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: case against her was based on perjury and it was

726
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: totally uh trumped up charges against her, and she was

727
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 1: completely innocent, and and sixty Minutes had this big story

728
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: about it. And President for Zella's is terrible. Let's let's

729
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: do what we can to Pardner and he and he

730
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: did not because she was guilty. It wasn't a declaration

731
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: of guilt, but because she wasn't guilty. And when she

732
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: accepted the pardon, she wasn't admitting she was guilty. She

733
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: was accepting it because she wasn't. And uh, Trump himself

734
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: just pardoned Jack Johnson posthumously, the boxer again, not because

735
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: he was guilty but should be forgiven, but because he

736
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: wasn't guilty. The case against him was was bogus. So

737
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: this notion that he won't do it because it would

738
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: require him to admit guilt, I think it's wrong, and

739
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: people are are missing the potential for President to put

740
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: it in the language that that I had it in

741
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: my book, where he says, I'm not guilty, I'm innocent. Um,

742
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: and these people are coming after me anyway even though

743
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm innocent. But I have the power to stop that.

744
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: So I'm going to use that power. That's what he

745
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: would say, And so any political reaction would would have

746
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: to reflect that context. If the president was saying I'm guilty,

747
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: but um, hey, it's good to be the king and

748
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: and pardon himself, that would be much more controversial, uh,

749
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: much more unacceptable. But I think also as a result

750
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: much less likely to happen. So let's talk a kind

751
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: of an out there hypothetical strategy, knowal that you were

752
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. Um, would it be possible for a

753
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: sitting president to use one of the clauses to step

754
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: down as president temporarily accept a pardon from the person

755
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: who is then president in that momentary timeline, and then

756
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: step back in Yes, so as I, I guess that's

757
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: what you're referring to section for twenty five Amendment about Yes, um,

758
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: the president could do that. Now, it's important to make

759
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: a distinction about whether such a pardon would be valid

760
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: and whether such a pardon would um be able to

761
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: be done with impunity. Because if if the president did that,

762
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: and then presumably you know, once he's back, he pardons

763
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: the vice president, uh quid pro quote um, those pardons

764
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: would be valid. Right when you're the president or near

765
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 1: the acting president, you pardon someone that that pardon sticks,

766
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: but you also can be impeached for that, and you

767
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: can be prosecuted for it too if it's part of

768
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: a criminal enterprise. So if if if I give the

769
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: president a million dollars in exchange for pardon and he

770
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: pardons me, that pardon is valid, but we're both going

771
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: to go to prison for for the bribe. Um, and

772
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: because you and only pardon something that's already been done.

773
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: If the pardon is this criminal, you can't pardon yourself

774
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: for partnering yourself, right the last one. They'll always get

775
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: you for the last one. So so yeah, the president

776
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: could could hand over power to the vice president. The

777
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: vice president pardons and hands power back he returns to

778
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 1: the favor, or he could resign. Uh. That's that's basically

779
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: what Nixon and Ford did. Nixon resigned, Ford pardon Nixon.

780
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: Ford didn't need a pardon, so there was no sort

781
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: of quid pro quo there. Um. If it's part of

782
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: a corrupt conspiracy, then it would be punished as part

783
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: of a corrupt conspiracy, even though the pardons themselves would

784
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: probably stick. I don't think there's any question about that.

785
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: There there are some people who would say that a

786
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 1: court would would would refuse to honor such a pardon,

787
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: but I based on the case, I don't see that happening.

788
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: I think it's also worth mentioning how this would play out.

789
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: If you have a pardon, um, it doesn't actually mean

790
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: anything unless one tries to do something to you that

791
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: the pardon says they can't. So if you have a

792
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: pardoner and they say, well, I'm going to prosecute you say,

793
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: well you can't because I have a pardon, then they

794
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: try to prosecute you anyway, then the court has to

795
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: decide whether the pardon is valid or not. If no

796
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: one tries to partner the president he pardons himself, or

797
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: the vice president partners him, and no one tries to

798
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: prosecute him, then we don't know if it's valid or

799
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: not because it doesn't matter. It's only when he tries

800
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: to do something that would only be he'd only be

801
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: able to do if the pardon were valid, that we

802
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: would find out. And there's there's you know, a lot

803
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: of a lot of things would have to happen before

804
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 1: a president would get prosecuted. It's not just the self

805
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: pardon being a remote hypothetical. It's it's also the prosecution

806
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 1: itself that was remote. So you know, I love talking

807
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: about these hypotheticals, but um, it's it's also hard to imagine, um,

808
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: the vice president wanting to get his hands dirty in

809
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: that way. Um, I'm not saying that it would never happen.

810
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that the more things you add in

811
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: that make it unlikely, the more hypothetical it is, the

812
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: less instructive it is. It's hard hard to draw lessons

813
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: from it. Ford pardons Nixon. To me, that's like a

814
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: back room conversation where Nixon is like, no, that's how

815
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: I see it. Uh. Why why did Ford pardon Nixon

816
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: knowing there would be political fallout? It seems like it

817
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: was something he was like doing a favor for for Nixon. Yeah,

818
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: there are there are a lot of people who think

819
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: that Nixon made a deal with Ford. I'll resign and

820
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: then you pardon me. And I think Ford was inclined

821
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: to pardon Nixon because that's just the kind of guy

822
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: that Ford was. He he didn't he didn't think that

823
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: we needed to continue beating up on Nixon. He thought

824
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: that losing the office was punishment enough, all that sort

825
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: of stuff, And um, I don't I don't think that

826
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: Nixon really they had any leverage over Ford. Like if

827
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: if he says, well, I'll resign, but only if you

828
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: promised to pardon me for if you if he was

829
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: answering honestly, he said, well, I was going to pardon

830
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: you anyway? Why are you saying that? Um or or

831
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: he could say why I, which which he actually did say.

832
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: This is all in in his autobiography and uh, it's

833
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 1: been reported and al Haig's book. Um El Haigu came

834
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: to Ford before Nixon resigned. Haigue was Nixon's chief of

835
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: staff and said, um, will you uh, will you commit

836
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: to pardonering Nixon? And Ford didn't say yes, and he

837
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: didn't say no, And and when he told his people later,

838
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: they said, well, you need to be more clear. You're

839
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: not committing to anything. So he called up Hay he said,

840
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: I'm not committing to anything. But but Nixon didn't have

841
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: any leverage. He was he was going to get impeached

842
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: and removed. Uh, he was gonna have to resign anyway

843
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,479
Speaker 1: or no pardon. Did he really want to pardon? Sure?

844
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: Was Ford going to pardon him anyway? Sure? But was

845
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: there a deal? I don't think so. I think what

846
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: I was getting at was that it was more of

847
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: a courtesy. And I'm wondering why the conversation now isn't like, well,

848
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: of course Pence will pardon Trump. Why why are we

849
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: talking about Trump partnering himself when the president has kind

850
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: of been that as a courtesy, your VP will pardon

851
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: you anyway. Well, I think maybe Pence will look at

852
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: what happened for it when Ford pardon Nixon and say,

853
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: if I want to get elected in or whatever the

854
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: next election is, if if has happened, I would have

855
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: to think seriously about whether to do this or not.

856
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: And if whatever it is that he's partnering Trump for

857
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: is something that involves himself as well, um, then that

858
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: would be politically difficult for him to do. Ford had

859
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: the political space because he hadn't been mixed up in Watergate.

860
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: He had he had the space to do that and

861
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: not have it look like, uh a an inside deal.

862
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: In the same way, when when Bush pardon the Iran

863
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,720
Speaker 1: contrat defendants, that was controversial for that reason because Bush

864
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: was one of them. It looked like he was he

865
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: was helping them out of a mass that he uh

866
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: he was in two um so so well, yeah, a

867
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 1: lot would turn on that is Pence involved in whatever

868
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: he's partnering him for or not as far as courtesy

869
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: is concerned, you know, it's it's a political question. He

870
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: would he would look at the polls and and they

871
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: would they would survey people, and he wouldn't have to

872
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: decide right away. Um. This all turns on the notion

873
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: that the president is being prosecuted for something, though, and

874
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: I I think, um, yeah, that's that's possible that a

875
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: former president would be pursued by a prosecutor. But without

876
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: knowing exactly what the cases and exactly what the what

877
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: the dynamics of it all are, it's hard to say

878
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: what Pence would or wouldn't do in that situation. Because

879
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: if if there's a smoking gun and he looks guilty

880
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: and it looks bad, then a pardon would look bad. Um.

881
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: And if it looks like it's some technical thing or

882
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: some disputable thing, and and Pence wants the country to

883
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: move on, and he thinks that he can sell that

884
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: idea that this is about moving on, then maybe what

885
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: but he would he would have to look at what

886
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: happened for it and and and realize that unless he

887
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: has thirty points of approval ratings to spare, he he

888
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: probably has to be real careful about that, because it's

889
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,959
Speaker 1: tantamount to political suicide, or at least it seems that's

890
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: the that's the way the average voter would would look

891
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: at a vice president right there, would gaze unfavorably upon that,

892
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: regardless of the circumstances that led to that decision. Well,

893
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: I think that's the main thing that's different between now

894
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: and Watergate. Um. You can talk about an average voter

895
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: in in the seventies and and we were still being

896
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: governed from the center at that point, and now things

897
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 1: are so polarized, and and we've got two sides that

898
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: that have completely irreconcilable versions of reality. And so there

899
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: isn't an average voter really like there. There isn't anyone

900
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,479
Speaker 1: in the middle. So I'm I'm I'm not sure that.

901
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that the political suicide notion is um,

902
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: something that translates exactly from the seventies. I mean, yet,

903
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: he would have to take that seriously, He'd have to

904
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: look at what the poll say, but it would it

905
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: would play out in in a in a weirdly different way. Um.

906
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: The same with impeachment. UM, Nixon didn't go until the

907
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: Republicans turned on them. The Democrats were in control of Congress.

908
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: It looked like they were going to drive the impeachment forward,

909
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: but it wasn't going to be successful until and unless

910
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: the Republicans turned against him. Well, that's the same situation.

911
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: Now you don't get two thirds to vote to convict

912
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: in the Senate less both parties agree. Um, but you

913
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: don't have anyone in the middle anymore. And the Republicans

914
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 1: have to pay attention to the Republican primary voters. And

915
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: with that polarization, Um, it's it's harder, harder to paint

916
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 1: a picture where something happens and everyone agrees that it's bad,

917
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: like it was in the seventies. And you know, I'm

918
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: having a hard time emphasizing how much I appreciate that

919
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: point about polarization, because for everyone listening, regardless where you

920
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: find yourself falling in your own personal political or ideological stances, Uh,

921
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is that the public in

922
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: general is increasingly polarized. And although precedent does exist. You know,

923
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: Professor cult, I think you make some uh fascinating, fantastic,

924
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 1: and to some degrees, disturbing points about the differences between

925
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: previous decades and the age in which we live today.

926
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: Before we conclude today's episode, Professor, we have a question

927
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: for you that we're certain is on the minds of

928
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: our our fellow audience members here, and that is this

929
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: where can where can listeners go to learn more about

930
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: your work and to learn more about the concept of

931
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: pardoning or self pardoning specifically. So I would recommend um

932
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: if if people are interested in my book, that chapter

933
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: two of the book is the most comprehensive treatment that

934
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: I've produced on the self pardoned question. For twenty years,

935
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: I was the only person talking about it. Most of

936
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: the discussion in the last year and a half has

937
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: drawn on the things that I've said, whether they cited

938
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: or not. I think the book is the best place

939
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: to go. Just go to Amazon UM type in my

940
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: last name, k A. LT and Constitutional Cliffhangers and it

941
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: should come right up. I think they sold out of

942
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: the hardcovers, but the paperbacks are still available in the UM.

943
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: The E book version is still there. If they want

944
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: to read the original article UM in the Yellow Journal.

945
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: UM again, google my name cult and pardon me and

946
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: S S R n UM. It'll come up there and

947
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 1: you can download the original article. Awesome. We'll get out

948
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: there on Amazon. Find that book, check it out. We

949
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: there's all by the way, uh professor called you are

950
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 1: all over just the Washington Post and the Internet. When

951
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: people are talking about this subject, you get a lot

952
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: of calls, don't you. I do. UM. It's it's a

953
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: nice change for UM twenty years of people thinking that

954
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: it was ridiculous to even be talking about this. UM.

955
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: Probably my highlight was in the preface of the book.

956
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: I I talked about how I'm writing this book and

957
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: I and I'm at this reception and I'm talking to

958
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: this prominent legal thinker and he asked me what I'm

959
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: writing about, and I tell him, and he looked at me, says,

960
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: why are you writing about that? And fast forward to

961
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: and he has a piece in the uh Washington Post

962
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: about whether the president can partner himself. So, oh man,

963
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: it's a little terrifying that you're you know, you were

964
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: on the right track, but it's a prescient as well.

965
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: And we would like to thank you again for being

966
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: so generous with your time with us today and for

967
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: correcting or clarifying some of the misconceptions regarding pardons in

968
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: general that are so common in the US. And I

969
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: would say in larger international con text as well. Uh So,

970
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in. Uh please

971
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: let us know further questions that you may have while

972
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: you're listening to today's episode regarding the concept of self pardoning.

973
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: You can find Matt Nolan I on Instagram. You can

974
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter.

975
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on our fan page. Here's where

976
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: it gets crazy, and boy does it ever get crazy.

977
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: In that fan page, professor called do you have a

978
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: Twitter that you'd like to plug here? Yes, I'm on Twitter.

979
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: I'm at Prof Brian Coult. There you go prepare yourself

980
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: for for a lot of inquisitive minds. Well, you know

981
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: Twitter brings out the best in people, doesn't it. Yes,

982
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: that's what I hear. All right. If you don't want

983
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: to reach us, or if you don't have any questions,

984
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: you have any of that stuff, but you just want

985
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: to say something, you can always reach us via email.

986
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com. I