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Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,

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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes, her car, gets out

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Speaker 1: and vanishes. Everybody has a theory. Was she murdered? Was

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Speaker 1: it a suicide? Did you run away? Join the search

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Speaker 1: as an investigative reporter and former US Marshall uncovered new evidence,

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Speaker 1: interrogate new witnesses, trace down new leads, and this riveting

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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray and starts Saturday,

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Speaker 1: September eight, fift pm, seven fifteen Central on Oxygen, the

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Speaker 1: new network for crime Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on

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Speaker 1: Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. This young aspiring

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Speaker 1: pastor charged with murdering his Sunday school teacher wife. What

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Speaker 1: Twenty year old Matthew Phelps arrested after a detailed and

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Speaker 1: disturbed being called she stood on the floor between labored

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Speaker 1: breadth an alarming admission, there's a boarding knife on the bed.

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Speaker 1: A disoriented sounding caller telling the dispatcher he took cough

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Speaker 1: medicine to sleep the night before. He qualifies that yes,

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Speaker 1: it looks like I did kill her. The knife is here,

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Speaker 1: I have blood all over me. However, this medicine made

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Speaker 1: me do it. An aspiring pastor calls nine one one,

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Speaker 1: and he sounds so disoriented, sobbing, breathing heavily, as if

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Speaker 1: he had just run a marathon, to reveal his young wife,

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Speaker 1: his bride really of just months, was dead on the floor,

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Speaker 1: covered in blood. No, it was not an armed intruder.

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Speaker 1: It was not a home invader. It was not a

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Speaker 1: maniacal kill. Are they're blaming it all on cough medicine.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. With me this morning, syndicated radio host

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Speaker 1: Dave matt and also with me renowned forensic psychiatrist Dr

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Speaker 1: Daniel Bober And boy, do I need a shrink. Let's

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Speaker 1: take it from the top, Dave mc let's kick it

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Speaker 1: off with a listen to the nine one call. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen. Let me exactly what happened. I think I chilled.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by what happened? I dream and

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Speaker 1: then I turned on the lightsome she stood on the floor.

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Speaker 1: How how I'm I'm kind of blood all over me

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Speaker 1: and there's a boy knife on the bed, and I

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Speaker 1: think I did it? Okay, car stay on the phone

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Speaker 1: with you, giving her and get Okay, I can't believe this.

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Speaker 1: I can't belief this. When did you When did you

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Speaker 1: wake up to find this? I don't even know what

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Speaker 1: time it is. All right, stay on the phone with me,

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Speaker 1: so I just gonna ask if you questions. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: getting some help to you. Are you with Are you

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Speaker 1: with the patient? Now? Yeah? I can see your Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right? How does the howard? Is the patient? How's

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Speaker 1: your She's pretty died? Okay? Is she? Is she awaken?

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Speaker 1: All right? Now? What makes you think she's there? Does she? Wait?

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Speaker 1: She thought breathed? Okay, oh good god? Okay. Do you

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Speaker 1: think she is bond beyond any help? I hold though,

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Speaker 1: too scared to get too close to her. Okay, just

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Speaker 1: stay on the phone with me, sir. I'm I'm here

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Speaker 1: with you. I'm here straight out to Dave Mack, syndicated

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Speaker 1: radio hosts joining us. Dave, question, let's take it from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. What do we know about this pastor what

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Speaker 1: do we know about him? Well, we know that he

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Speaker 1: graduated from Bible College a couple of years ago, but

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Speaker 1: he's been working mowing yards, I mean, basically trying to

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Speaker 1: make a living that's pretty much where it is. And

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Speaker 1: he claims that he took too much called medicine and

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Speaker 1: then woke up to this nightmare. Okay, here's my concern. Okay,

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Speaker 1: first of all about her, but I'm trying to decipher

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Speaker 1: what I can learn from that nine one one call.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Dr Daniel Bober. He's totally out of breath.

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Speaker 1: He's obviously physically exerted. So how can he argue that

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Speaker 1: he is it was asleep, that he was asleep at

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Speaker 1: the time this happened. Well, Nancy, I think what he

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Speaker 1: was trying to say is that he was in some

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Speaker 1: sort of altered state of consciousness or dissociative state, and

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Speaker 1: he didn't realize what he was doing, and maybe that

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Speaker 1: sound of him being out of breath was actually him

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Speaker 1: being distraught. So I don't think that this is a

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Speaker 1: very distraught. Is that what they taught you in medical school.

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Speaker 1: You're covered in blood, Your wife is covered in stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: She fought with you because obviously she was asleep in

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Speaker 1: the bed. Now she's in the floor. She didn't magically

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Speaker 1: appear there. Um, so there was a fight. But you

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Speaker 1: are telling me he was breathing heavily because he was upset. Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: maybe there if she was in fact sleeping, then she

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Speaker 1: was essentially ambushed. Maybe there was no chance for a

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Speaker 1: fight because he stabbed her repeatedly. She probably lost so

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Speaker 1: much blood, there was so much catastrophic loss of blood

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Speaker 1: that there probably wasn't much of a chance for to

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Speaker 1: even react if she was sleeping, If she was sound asleep.

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Speaker 1: So how did she get on the floor thrashing moving about?

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Speaker 1: Maybe he pushed her on the floor. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: know about. What we do know is that she thought

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Speaker 1: that's how she got on the floor. I wish we

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Speaker 1: were in the rain together, Bober. Okay, what about this

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Speaker 1: guy's the wife Lauren Lauren Hugel Mayer killed by her

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Speaker 1: husband Matthew Phelps, found dead on their Raleigh in their

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Speaker 1: Raleigh home there in North Carolina. He claims he has

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Speaker 1: taken he had taken quote too much correscedon cold and

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Speaker 1: cough medicine before bed. And the reason we're on this today,

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Speaker 1: he's had it to court and I cannot wait to

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Speaker 1: hear what he is going to say. Why doesn't he

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Speaker 1: Dave Max, syndicated talk show host, just stand up and

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Speaker 1: go Okay, you know what I'm manning up, I did it.

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Speaker 1: Oh No, he's not gonna do that that. He's gonna

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Speaker 1: drag us all down his primrose path of b s.

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Speaker 1: That's what's gonna happen. He's either going to play not

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Speaker 1: guilty or claim he has a mental defect. What about it,

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Speaker 1: Dave Matchel? In reality, this cores Sedon defense. Actually looking

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Speaker 1: at the history of course Seden, They've never had and

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Speaker 1: never had a violent outburst attributed to Core Seden. What

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Speaker 1: we do know is that because he was aware of

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Speaker 1: overtaking it. I'm guessing, and this is just me throwing

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Speaker 1: it out there. I'm guessing this guy uses Coros Seden

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Speaker 1: to get a buzz and that was just his first

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Speaker 1: go to thing. Is that he'd been doing it. This

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Speaker 1: woman apparently was just a sweet, sweet lady, a Sunday

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Speaker 1: school teacher, you know, is trying to start work at

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Speaker 1: home in her spare time because her husband was mowing yards,

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Speaker 1: even though he has an evangelical degree from a Bible College.

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Speaker 1: M Okay, let me just say, says, nobody asked that

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Speaker 1: in our Methodist church, mocked me. If you want, we

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Speaker 1: are peace loving, a peace loving bunch that loves to sing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: unlike others, we do dance and drink, not me, of course,

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Speaker 1: but then they drink. So this is what I know.

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Speaker 1: In the Methodist church. You have to take a psychological

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Speaker 1: exam before you can get up in the pulpit. You

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Speaker 1: just don't graduate from Bible school or online somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly you're just up in the pulpit helping other

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Speaker 1: people figure out their problems. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I've been told that Jim Jones, remember the kool aid Um,

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Speaker 1: try to be a Methodist pastor and was turned down

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Speaker 1: because he failed the psychological. Now I'm just wondering. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that Phelps couldn't pass the psychological He did

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Speaker 1: not go to a Methodist seminary, went to a different

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Speaker 1: I can't remember something in Kentucky. I've got to look

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Speaker 1: it up again. It was it was actually a Southern

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Speaker 1: Baptist College Kentucky and Nancy. Something you don't know about

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Speaker 1: me is I actually did go to a Bible college

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Speaker 1: after going to North Carolina State. Well what happened? Why

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Speaker 1: are you a sini? Got a talk to you host? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually I am an ordained pastor. But the bottom

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Speaker 1: line is that, you know, we tend to look at

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Speaker 1: things um differently when somebody has a background in a

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Speaker 1: Bible oriented thing like he did. You know, I'm guilty

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Speaker 1: of that and I shouldn't. But when I when I believe,

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Speaker 1: I just instinctively think, when you are a pastor or

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Speaker 1: involved in somehow in religion, whether it's a synagogue or

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Speaker 1: uh church or a mosque or whatever it may be,

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Speaker 1: you have taken on the indisha of you know, being

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Speaker 1: a religious person that cares about other people and they're

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Speaker 1: trying to do the right thing, And to me, it

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Speaker 1: puts you sets you up to a higher bar, a

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Speaker 1: higher standard. I know that's not right, but that's just

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Speaker 1: what I think. Actually, you know, if you and I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna get into a Sunday School lesson here, but

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Speaker 1: you know, if you read the Book of James in

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Speaker 1: the New Testament, it says those who teach you're going

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Speaker 1: to be judged at a higher level than those who

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Speaker 1: choose not to teach. With the the confines of the church.

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Speaker 1: This guy is pretty much listened to Dave mac throwing

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Speaker 1: some New testamentary. Sorry man, I didn't don't be sorry,

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Speaker 1: be proud, be loud and proud man. Look, I love Jesus,

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Speaker 1: but there are crazy people in every walk of life,

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Speaker 1: and there are losers in every walk of life. This

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Speaker 1: guy is an abject failure in life. She graduated within

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Speaker 1: a degree in evangelism and missionary work, and here we

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Speaker 1: are five years after he graduates, and he's mowing yards

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Speaker 1: for a living. And by the way, not even mowing

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Speaker 1: yards in Raleigh, North Carolina, but working for a company

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Speaker 1: that's actually based out of Greensboro, several hours away. This

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Speaker 1: guy was a failure in multiple cities. And his poor wife,

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Speaker 1: she's teaching Sunday school and trying to start an at

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Speaker 1: work home work at home thing on Facebook, just to

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Speaker 1: try to bring some money into the house. Look, I've

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Speaker 1: been there, Dr Daniel Bober. I remember in law school

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Speaker 1: I was so broke. My study partner and I, Frank,

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Speaker 1: we would go to Del Taco on Tuesday nights because

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Speaker 1: I think you could get three tacos for nine cents.

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Speaker 1: That was the big night, okay. And I would have

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Speaker 1: to This is before you could look it up on

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Speaker 1: your you know, laptop of your iPad. I'd have to

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Speaker 1: drive through the bank. Hold on check my balance, and

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Speaker 1: I would actually sometimes write the check for the tacos.

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Speaker 1: I would not even have two dollars to rub together.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how I kept gas in the car,

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Speaker 1: but I hear it. We've pretty much everybody has been there.

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Speaker 1: I'm just looking again to get to leave Jesus out

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Speaker 1: of this, and the money and the yards and the

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Speaker 1: lawnmowers out of this. Get back to the actual incident

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Speaker 1: and the fact that he has headed to court and

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Speaker 1: the next couple of days and something's gonna give. Um,

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Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, what do you what? How do you expect

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Speaker 1: him to present in court? I think that this is

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Speaker 1: the only explanation that he really has to account for

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Speaker 1: his behavior. I think. I mean, some people would say

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Speaker 1: he's throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

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Speaker 1: But you know, there's no it's very, very improbable that

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Speaker 1: this defense will work in the nine one one call.

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Speaker 1: Is not helpful to him at all. But I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that this is what he's gonna go for because this

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Speaker 1: is all he has, you know. Dave Max, syndicated talk

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Speaker 1: show host, joining me. I want to follow up on

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Speaker 1: what Dr Bober is saying. Pretty much Bober has been right, Um,

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Speaker 1: he's he's kind of painting himself into a corner. He's

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Speaker 1: either got to play guilty, which he's not going to do,

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Speaker 1: not guilty, or a mental defect. I expect strong length

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Speaker 1: whether he's got a defect or not. That's what he's

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Speaker 1: going to plead. That's gonna send us down the road

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Speaker 1: of months and months and months of exams, testing, psychological evaluations.

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Speaker 1: He'll be sent to a special facility to be tested.

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Speaker 1: No telling how long that will take. But he's again

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Speaker 1: and blaming this on course, Sadan, did you know what

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Speaker 1: I think one of you said to start with? It

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Speaker 1: is right? He actually said I took it to make

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Speaker 1: me feel good and to help me go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Nothing about I've been sick, nothing like that at all.

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Speaker 1: He took it to get high and then go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Dave yea, that is what I saw from the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: and is when not that dissimilar from people using what

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Speaker 1: they call whippets. You know, there's all kinds of ways

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Speaker 1: you can use over the counter medications to cop a

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Speaker 1: buzz and just don't throw it out there. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even know what a whip it was until Jimmy Moore

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Speaker 1: sucked a couple up and got in trouble explain what

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Speaker 1: a whipp it is. OK, that's and I'm not an

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Speaker 1: expert in this at all, but and that's where I

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Speaker 1: actually found out what it was from Jimmy Moore. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's using the UH over the counter or the the

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Speaker 1: dairy topping you know that has the aerosol in the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the can and they poke a hole in

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Speaker 1: and they suck that out to get the buzz from

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Speaker 1: the ariazol. Yeah. And so the same thing with this

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Speaker 1: Corus Seden is that young people have been using the

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Speaker 1: Corus sedon over the last several years. They take a

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Speaker 1: large number ten or twelve of the tablets, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and that renders them into some state of euphoria. Guys.

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Speaker 1: Sleepwalking defense has actually worked a couple of times because

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Speaker 1: he's saying he was odd on Corus seden. Coughs are

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Speaker 1: which bear aspirin, by the way, has vehemently denied they're

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Speaker 1: the ones that make the Corus seden. And it's just like, um, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: what are the different coughs syrups? They'll say, like robert usin,

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Speaker 1: Robertestin d M, or Robertestin x M or I don't

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Speaker 1: know all the little letters beside them means something different.

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Speaker 1: This had it too, right, Yeah, she's saying, yes, it's

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Speaker 1: Corse Eden like ABC. There's something. Yeah, maybe something like that.

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Speaker 1: Alan and those stand This is not just regular corous scene.

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Speaker 1: But Bear is saying, no way. Let me tell you

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Speaker 1: about these cases very quickly. They actually he was saying

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Speaker 1: it made him go to sleep, into a deep sleep.

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Speaker 1: There was Massachusetts versus Terrell all the way back to

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty six. He was acquitted in the murder of

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Speaker 1: a prostitute in Boston. He slipped the woman's throat, He

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Speaker 1: set fire to the brothel, then fled to New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: and he agreed that he The jury agreed and found

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Speaker 1: him not guilty when he claimed he was a chronic sleepwalker. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now that was in eighteen six, All right, hold on.

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Speaker 1: Then there was fame that's in the eighteen seventies. A

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Speaker 1: man goes to sleep in the lobby of a Kentucky hotel.

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Speaker 1: The porter shook him to wake him up. Man pulled

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Speaker 1: a gun and shot him. That sounds a lot like

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Speaker 1: the current Tex mc iver case that's going on in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: where the guy woke up in the back seat and

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Speaker 1: shot his wife. Okay, there's that when he was found guilty. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that conviction was reversed State versus Bradley. We're moving up

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Speaker 1: time to the nineteen twenties in Texas, same thing. He

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Speaker 1: and his mistress were getting ready to go to bed.

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Speaker 1: He became quote alarmed about an enemy who made a

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Speaker 1: threat against him. Somehow he's asleep, He lights the lamp

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Speaker 1: and his girlfriend ends up dead. Okay, Um, Regina versus Parks.

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Speaker 1: That's in Canada. That's much more recent. Nineteen seven. Now

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Speaker 1: catch this Dr Bober. The guy murders his mother in

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Speaker 1: law and he used a sleepwalking defense. He got out

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Speaker 1: of bed, drove fourteen miles to his mother in law's house,

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Speaker 1: and strangled his father in law until he passed out,

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Speaker 1: and blunting the mother in law with a tire iron,

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Speaker 1: stabbed them both with the kitchen knife. The mother in

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Speaker 1: law dies, the father in law barely survives. Okay, he

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Speaker 1: was found not guilty. But that's Canada. Okay, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what is going on up there. Then you've got

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Speaker 1: a ninety four case and that one. Um, he was

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Speaker 1: sentenced with the same defense. Arizona v. Falater and seven.

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Speaker 1: That was pretty famous. That guy was a devout Mormon.

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Speaker 1: He stabbed his wife forty four times with a hunting knife,

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Speaker 1: dragged her into the backyard pool and held her head underwater. Whoopsie, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they found him guilty. In my last one, California versus Rentz,

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Speaker 1: Stephen Rentz killed his lover and she was a married

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Speaker 1: woman in her forties during what was supposed to be

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Speaker 1: a romantic getaway to Catalina Island. Well, long story short,

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Speaker 1: at the end of that trial, uh, the jury heard

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Speaker 1: him claim he did it as he was sleepwalking, and

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Speaker 1: they convicted him. There have been a couple of more.

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Speaker 1: One guy that I covered strangled his little boy dead

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Speaker 1: under a lot of financial problems when a jury let

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Speaker 1: him go, and this was recent. I just covered this

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Speaker 1: in the last say five years. The wife passed out

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Speaker 1: she was so upset he murdered their four year old

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Speaker 1: child and was like, it's the last week of National

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Speaker 1: make a will m up at legal Zoom. They're still

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00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:26,879
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00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,520
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00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,320
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Speaker 1: And just a couple of days, a young aspiring pastor

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00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: is heading to court and we're all wondering and analyzing

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Speaker 1: what is going to happen. We're talking, of course, this

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Speaker 1: is just after the funeral for his twenty nine year

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Speaker 1: old wife has been held. We are talking about her husband,

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Speaker 1: Matthew Phelps now charge you with killing his wife, Lauren

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Speaker 1: at the Raleigh, North Carolina home in the early morning

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Speaker 1: hours of a Friday morning. I want you to listen

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Speaker 1: to the rest of that nine one one call Alan,

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Speaker 1: When did you When did you wake up? The time

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Speaker 1: is so I don't even know what time it is

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Speaker 1: all right, stay on the phone with me, so I

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Speaker 1: just gonna ask if you questions. Okay, I'm getting some

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Speaker 1: help to you. Are you with are you with the patient? Now? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: We can see your okay, all right? How does the howard?

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Speaker 1: Is the patient? How's your she's pretty DoD? Okay? Is

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Speaker 1: she is? She awakened? All right? Now? What makes you

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Speaker 1: think she's there? Does she await? She thought? Breathed? Okay,

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Speaker 1: oh good god? Okay, do you think she is bond

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Speaker 1: beyond any help? I hold though, I too scared to

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Speaker 1: get too close to her. Okay, to stay on the

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Speaker 1: phone with me, sir, I'm here with you. I'm here

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Speaker 1: with you. I'm so scared alright. I've already sent the

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Speaker 1: paramedics healthy Okay, I'm saying it to want to assist you.

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Speaker 1: Just please leave everything as you founded? Is there anything

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Speaker 1: else you can do for you? That? Where's where's the night?

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Speaker 1: Right now? If I saw the bed, I'm not mixed

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Speaker 1: to it. Well, I'm not. I don't have the lesson

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Speaker 1: on me and itth like that. Okay, when did you

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Speaker 1: when did you wake up? No? I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: took I took war medicine than I should have. What

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Speaker 1: medicine did you take? I took. I took core seating,

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Speaker 1: casting colds course seat and she casting bold because I

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Speaker 1: know it can make you feel good. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of times I can't sleep at night. Okay, took some

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Speaker 1: all right? Never, what is it? What are you sure

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Speaker 1: it's not breathing, she's thought, Lacy, Oh god, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna stay. I'm gonna stay here with you. Okay, just

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Speaker 1: just let's let's least see if she's breathing. Okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: Mr Buer, just can you see her from where you're at? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so bad theod Okay, all right, I'm gonna stay

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Speaker 1: here on the phone with you and to help get there. Okay, Um,

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Speaker 1: just don't don't touch anything. Just look at if she

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Speaker 1: is she's breathing at all? Is her chest moving? Is

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Speaker 1: anything going on with her? No? Okay, Well, let's we're

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Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna leaves drive on me? Is you drive?

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Speaker 1: The bloods is not wet on me? The blood is dry.

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Speaker 1: So okay, I don't know what. All right, Well, at

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Speaker 1: least look, we're gonna at least try to help her. Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, just give me this, all right, I've already

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Speaker 1: sent the paramedics to help you. Just down a one.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to exactly what to do next. Okay, are

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Speaker 1: are you right by her? Boy going? I know I

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Speaker 1: can see every Oh my god, stay with me, sir,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know it's just this upset, but we

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Speaker 1: were gonna try to do what as much for as

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Speaker 1: you can. If you're not sure that she's gone, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna try to help her. Okay, So just listen, carefu

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Speaker 1: you just listen, okay, sir? Or just just look at

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Speaker 1: her right now? Is the king telling? What you see?

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Speaker 1: Is she gets the chest moving and she's breathing anything

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Speaker 1: at all, she's this is all He's so deserved. This

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Speaker 1: why I understand, Sir, I understand. But right now we

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Speaker 1: just want to make sure we're doing this much as possible.

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Speaker 1: Is there anyone else at all in the home with you? Fosed?

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Speaker 1: Just you and her? Where are you in the house?

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Speaker 1: Where are you in the house, sir? Because says the

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Speaker 1: wire don't ar? Okay, well, all right, is the door unlocked?

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Speaker 1: Can you can you go do that for me? Sir?

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Speaker 1: That waited paramedics get in? Can are you able to

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Speaker 1: do that? Okay? Go ahead and go ahead, stay on

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Speaker 1: the stand, the phone was, and go ahead and unlock

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Speaker 1: the door. Okay, would you saying, sir? You say, go

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Speaker 1: ahead and unlocked the Let me know when you're done that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me know when the doors unlocked. Mh she okay,

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Speaker 1: the officers there. Okay, I'm gonna let you go. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna let you go. Over Afraid to touch her, Dave Max,

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Speaker 1: syndicated talk show host. What he stabs her dead, He's

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Speaker 1: covered in her blood, he's slept with her, they're married.

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Speaker 1: He's afraid to touch her. What? Dave, Matt, you know,

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Speaker 1: the whole story reeks of just making it up as

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Speaker 1: you go along. And I can't figure out where that

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Speaker 1: even came from. The guy's covered in blood, he sees

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Speaker 1: his wife, and he's afraid to check to see if

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Speaker 1: she's alive. I have no answer on that one, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sorry. It just is crazy. It's a big

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Speaker 1: bag of made up crazy, big bag of made up crazy.

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Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober. There you hear, uh, Dave Mac and

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Speaker 1: my professional analysis, big bag of made up crazy. Somehow,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they taught you that in med school.

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Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober renowned forensic psychilogists joining us. So now

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Speaker 1: he's afraid to touch her. Yeah, Anti, the whole thing

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00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: doesn't really make sense. It's uh, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I would use that technical term that you both use,

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00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: but uh, certainly you know this is something that's highly improbable,

401
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: but it is possible. I've never seen a case of

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Speaker 1: murder Encoreus Seden. Uh. There have been some adverse or

403
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: untoward reactions, but it's not something, uh that's ever been

404
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: documented that I've heard about. So I guess that's all

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Speaker 1: he's got right now, and that's what he's gonna stick with.

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Speaker 1: Alan joining us out of l A. Alan, you're saying

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Speaker 1: it's corus Seeden h Happy b brother P Pennsylvania h

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00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: p P. It stands for high blood pressure. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean he had high blood pressure. People take it who

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00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: don't have that. But it's, I guess, just a certain

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Speaker 1: formula that gives a certain effect. Because he didn't say

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Speaker 1: he was taking it for a cold. He said he

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Speaker 1: was taking it to make him feel. Yeah, let me

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Speaker 1: remind everybody, as the sole legal voice on the panel

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Speaker 1: right now, voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not

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Speaker 1: a defense, never a defense unless you're commatas. Commatas does

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00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: not mean and an alter state to just sleep walking.

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Speaker 1: It means common tose, as in you're lying there, not

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Speaker 1: walking around with a knife in your hand. Dr Daniel Bober,

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Speaker 1: forensics psychiatrist Corus st h b P. Is that for

421
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: paople with high blood pressure, does cost start make your

422
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: blood pressure go up? It can. I'm guessing it's for.

423
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: It's probably for. I don't actually know that it stands

424
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 1: for a high blood pressure, but it does. I just

425
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: looked at that when when Alan told me that it

426
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: must be for people with high blood probabus for people

427
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: with high blood pressure that it won't raise their blood pressure.

428
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: But it has chlorophan aramine, which is an anahistamine, and

429
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: the dexter methorphan, which is the ingredient that we're targeting

430
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: here that has a similar effect to PCP and ketamine

431
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: which can cause these dissociative states. So that's kind of

432
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: what they're focused on. So I guess you're pretty proud

433
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: of yourself, Dr Bober. The way you sling around all

434
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: those words to you gotta dummy down. Okay, I'm just

435
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: a trial lawyer. Okay, Now, Alan do I can't really

436
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: speak for him, but you got a dumb down for me.

437
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: What did you just say? The two ketamine which we've

438
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: heard about used. The street name is special K and yes, okay,

439
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: now you're talking now I get it. And PCP angel

440
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: dos pcp uh chemically related to that, to these substances,

441
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: and that's what their defense is going to focus on. That.

442
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: He's going to say, caud this altered state which he

443
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: committed the crime during, but he took it voluntarily, Alan Duke,

444
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: he took it voluntarily. It's not like this was an accident. Win.

445
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: I mean, if that were true, everybody in the Fulton

446
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: County Jail will be out right now. That all claim

447
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: they had it's flu and cold, cold and flue season,

448
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: that they were on coursing and HPP, that's not a difference.

449
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,479
Speaker 1: This was premeditated that you gotta read the warning signs.

450
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: Of course, it doesn't say on the little in the

451
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: little fine print. It doesn't say may cause you to

452
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: wake up and kill your Why he is appearing in court,

453
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: I believe he'll be transferred over and appear in person.

454
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: There's always a chance it may be a video appearance.

455
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: I don't see that happening in the nine one one.

456
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: He sounds like he's struggling to breathe. He goes there's

457
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: blood all over me. There's a bloody knife in the bed,

458
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: and I think I did it. I can't believe this.

459
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: He's struggling for breath. He goes on, I can't believe

460
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: I did this. I don't even know what time it is.

461
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: I can see her, she's not breathing. O m G.

462
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: I took more medicine than I should have. I'm scared

463
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: to get too close to her. I took coursine coughing

464
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: cold because I know it can make you feel good,

465
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of times I can't sleep at night.

466
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: Isn't that what he said? Dave Max, That's exactly what

467
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: he said. And obviously by saying I think I took

468
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: too much, he regularly takes this to cop of buzz,

469
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: not because he's got a coffin cold. He knew exactly

470
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: what he was doing to get high. And you know

471
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: he's using that as an excuse for killing his wife.

472
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: Or he took it because you couldn't sleep, which is

473
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: a little bit different. Why is that different? It's still

474
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: volunte Harry, Well, it's voluntary, but he didn't in the words.

475
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: The difference is that he's not using it recreationally. He's

476
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: using it as a sleep agent instead of to catch

477
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: a buzz. You didn't actually say I'm using it to

478
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: catch a buzz. Maybe when he said, I meant it

479
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: I took it to feel good. What he was saying

480
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: was I'm taking it because I couldn't sleep and I

481
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: had insomnia. I'm just looking at all the possible ways

482
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: the defense could spend this, in his Bennet, to his benefit.

483
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: You're right, you're right. I disagree with you, but you're

484
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: right that you have to You know, when when you

485
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: go to court, it's a battle, and if you go

486
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: in with um with just your case prepared your you

487
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: may very well lose. You have to go in not

488
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: only with your case totally ready. You have to be

489
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: prepared to battle their case. You have to anticipate what

490
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: they're going to do and be ready to attack it

491
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: and destroy it. So Bober is right in that he said,

492
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: and I'm quoting, I took more medicine than I should have.

493
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: I took coursing cough and cold because I know it

494
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: can make you feel good. So a lot of times

495
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: I can't sleep at night. Okay, so yeah, they're probably

496
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: gonna go with the sleep thing. But let's analyze this.

497
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober. Listen to this. To claim that he

498
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 1: was asleep for whatever reason, whether it's coresden or something

499
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: else or nothing, he's using the sleep walking defense for

500
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: whatever agent made him sleepy. To me as irrelevant, he's

501
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: using a sleepwalking defense. Listen to this. He had to

502
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: get up out of bed. He had to go get

503
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: the kitchen knife in the kitchen unless he had it

504
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: by the bed, which means it's even more premeditated than

505
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: we think. Gets it out of the kitchen, walks back

506
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: to the bedroom, targets his wife in the dark because

507
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: he said later on the nine one one that he

508
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: turned on the light. Targets his wife, begins to stab her.

509
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: She struggles. He stabs her multiple times. Think of the exertion,

510
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: the power, the physical manure ring to raise a knife

511
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: and pull it down over and over and over. She

512
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: gets out of bed, she struggles away, he continues. Then

513
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: he's covered in blood. She's covered in blood. He goes

514
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: to the phone, turns on the lie dolls one. How

515
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: in the hey Daniel Bober did he sleep through all that?

516
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: That's my point. Well, Nancy, you know in that in

517
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: the Canada case that you mentioned, uh, the gentleman who

518
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: drove fourteen miles. I mean, people have been known to

519
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: exhibit these complex behaviors in these sleepwalking defenses. So again,

520
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: although it sounds completely far out and in another universe, um,

521
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: it is possible in these sleepwalking states to commit these

522
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: types of behaviors. And I'm not saying that's what happened

523
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: in this case, but it is possible. What about the

524
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: fact Dave Max, syndicated talk show host, that the blood

525
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: had dried means that had happened at least and you know,

526
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: got blowers before and uh, I see that's where the

527
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: exert something. When you talked about him being out of

528
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: breath and everything, I thought that sounded made up to

529
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: me like this had already happened. He had spun a

530
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: story over the last hour or two, and so when

531
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: he called, he actually tried to hyperventilate to make himself

532
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: sound in that exert stay at the time like he

533
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: was panicked or whatever. I think it was just premeditated

534
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: from beginning to end, and that that's why the blood

535
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: was dry. Because he took him that long to figure

536
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 1: out what he was gonna say. What about that, Dr Bober,

537
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: because um, Jackie over here is waving it around on

538
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: a notepad. The blood was dry. Dr Bober, you're not

539
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: just a psychiatrist. You are I forensic psychiatrist. I would

540
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: like you to use all your degrees for good, not evil.

541
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: So what does the blood being dried mean? Do you?

542
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: No doubt? It's problematic, just like the nine one one call,

543
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: it's not consistent. If the blood was dry, then clearly

544
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: when he made that call, Um, you know she had

545
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: been sitting there for some extended period of time, which

546
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: the timeline doesn't fit for what he's trying to say.

547
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: So no doubt, that's a big problem. Well what does

548
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: it mean? I know it's a problem, but let's extrapolate.

549
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: Let's figure out what it means. I mean, when you

550
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: present something like this to a jury, you have you

551
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: give them a fat and then you make an argument

552
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: based on that one fact, than another fact, than another fact,

553
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: until you've built a mountain of facts. So what is

554
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: the fact that her blood was already dry mean to you?

555
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: Dr Bober? It means there was some time for him

556
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: to there was some delay there was. This was not

557
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: something where he turned and he did it and he

558
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 1: called it. There was some sort of a time delay

559
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: for that blood to dry. Now, I'm not a blood

560
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 1: spladder analyst, or I can't tell you exactly how much time.

561
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: You know, it depends where the blood was and what

562
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: service had reached. But clearly there was enough time for

563
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: him to maybe think about what he was going to

564
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: say or stage the scene. But it's not it's not

565
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: good for it. What about it? Joining me? Also, Alan

566
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: deep the fact that blood was dry. Yeah, you gotta

567
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: you gotta think that. He didn't stab her then fall

568
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: back asleep. So he stabbed her state awake, thought about it,

569
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: and then called nine one one. We've heard acting jobs

570
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: like that before, you know, And either of you gone

571
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: to there We're getting Married website because I'm looking at

572
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: it right now. Lauren and matt Our story. It starts

573
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: with a new hope, a new beginning. I've been reading this,

574
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: and Matthew says to her because they're at Panera bread

575
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: and Matthew says, do you remember when I worked at

576
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: the Old Folks Home wrapping presents? Okay, and they're talking.

577
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm just learning a lot about them, and he went

578
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: on to explain that that place had an in home

579
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: theater and thought it would be cool to watch Star

580
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: Wars Return of the Jedi before going to see Force Awakens.

581
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: Awakens coming out that week. That's when they find out

582
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: they have this huge love of Star Wars, Dave Mac.

583
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: Didn't they incorporate that into their wedding? They actually did,

584
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: and you can see the pictures on their Facebook page

585
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: showing their lightsaber dance at the reception. You know, most

586
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: of us danced to a slow, beautiful song with our

587
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: new spouse, and they did a lightsaber dance. I'm not judging.

588
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: I am not judging, but I'm just interested in everything

589
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: about them, about their relationship, about their courtship, what could

590
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: have gone wrong. I'll tell you why I'm interested because

591
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: of the dry blood. I'm interested because the blood being

592
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: dried tells me it happened a long time before the

593
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: nine one one call. What has he been doing during

594
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: that time? Did he make up the defense? Is that

595
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: what happened? Did he really just become angry at her

596
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: over something and stab her? That's That's what I'm trying

597
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: to figure out. Because of the dried blood that spins

598
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: in an entirely different tale now that I know he

599
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: didn't just turn the light on and call nine one one.

600
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: It had been at least an hour or more for

601
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: that blood to dry before he called. He says, I

602
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: had a dream, I turned on the lights and she's

603
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: dead on the floor. What do we know, What, if anything,

604
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: do we know about their relationship, David Matt except they

605
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: were under a lot of stress financially. Just that night before,

606
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: she had been on Lyne doing a sin C S

607
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: C E N T S Y. I think it's like

608
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: a candle shop advertisement, trying to sell it from home.

609
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: So they were scrapping, Dave, I know they had that problem.

610
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: And you know, you look at this both of them,

611
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, in their late twenties. They hadn't even been

612
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: married that long. They got married last November, and you know,

613
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: they shared some basic things on the top level. They

614
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: only dated for about two years, met online. And when

615
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: you start analyzing the relationship and it does seem sweet, uh,

616
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: the Star Wars thing or the Back to the Future

617
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: thing or whatever there happens to be that bound them together,

618
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: we're pretty super Yeah, they were right on the top level.

619
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: What happened in the deeper level. I don't know. She

620
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: was a huge volunteer with the youth group at her

621
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: church there in Raleigh, North Carolina. We don't see where

622
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: he's dug in at a home church. We know that

623
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: he went to a Bible college, but we're not seeing

624
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: the effects of what do you do with that degree.

625
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: He's mowing yards. You would think with a degree in

626
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 1: evangelism or in missionary work that that's what he would

627
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: be doing. Meanwhile, she is involved in her church and

628
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: teaching Sunday School. We don't see that from his side.

629
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: So what was there at a level that gets past

630
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: the surface level of a relationship. Where was the depth

631
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 1: and what was really going on? Only time will tell

632
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: because we weren't there and don't know. I know she

633
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: graduated from Appalachian State. She worked as an auditor, and

634
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: she also ran that personal sales business. I guess since

635
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: it's what they're talking about and that she loved her

636
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: job according to her family. I'm actually looking at the

637
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: video right now. It's kind of heartbreaking. Jack. You look

638
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: at this. Look how cute she is. She's holding up

639
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: the candle and she's, you know, talking about it. Hold

640
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: on Alan. I wish you could play that for us

641
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: right there if you can. And so I'm sorry for

642
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: the barking. I probably should um burry up. My phone

643
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: is dying. Um. But anyways, so this is the sense

644
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: you go. It is super super amazing. Barging me up, Jennifer. Um,

645
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: it is super amazing. I am obsessed with it. I

646
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: cannot get over it. It has been the light of

647
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: my life the past couple of weeks having it um

648
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: at my desk. But I better get off here because

649
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: my phone is yelling at me. It's about to die

650
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: and I don't want to get cut off. UM. So

651
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: thank you guys so much for watching, and I will

652
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: talk you to you guys later. By she volunteered her church.

653
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: Was known for a big smile and being full of life.

654
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: That's what we know about her and she and Phillips

655
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: also went to the same middle school and reconnected over Instagram,

656
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: bonding over their love for Star Wars. Um again, if

657
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: you go online you see their lightsaber thing. They just

658
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: seemed like a fun, loving, happy couple. She was laid

659
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: to rest one day before Phelps appeared in court for

660
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: the very first time. And now we are waiting to

661
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: see just as unfold as he heads back to court.

662
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: A do you I turns murder with me Crime Online

663
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: contributing reporter Larry Mayor and of course Lee Aigan from

664
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: crime Online. Larry, what happened? There was a car crash

665
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: in you Falla, Alabama that's in the southeastern part of

666
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: the state near the Georgia state line. A thirty five

667
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: year old woman, Karen Frost, was driving a Honda Accord

668
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: that crossed a center median and hit an oncoming car.

669
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: There were five people in the car with Frost, including

670
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 1: her daughter, and she was killed. Malaia Peterson was ten.

671
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: The all the all six people in the car were injured,

672
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: including Frost. Police file a murder charge against the mother,

673
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: Karen Frost. She has also charged with driving under the

674
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: influence of a controlled substance. That substance has not yet

675
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: been identified publicly by the police. Frost, referring to as

676
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: Larry Mayor, contributing reporter at crime Online just told us

677
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: this you follow. A woman is now charged with murder

678
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: and a d o I crash that killed her ten

679
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: year old little girl. We're talking about thirty five year

680
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: old mom Karen Frost. The wreck happened just after eight o'clock.

681
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: A nine Honda Acura, as Larry just told us, crosses

682
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: the median on you Fall Avenue, striking another vehicle. Chief

683
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: Steve Watkins says Frost was the driver of the Honda,

684
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: and she was among six people in the car, including

685
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: the ten year old little girl, Malaya. She was rushed

686
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: to the medical Center barber where she was then pronounced

687
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: dead almost immediately. A forensic analysis reveals evidence leading investigators

688
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: to get a warrant. In addition to murder, she's charged

689
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: with d u I. When I hear that they rushed

690
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: to get a warrant, and I think I know what

691
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: it was for for her blood. Dr Bethany. She's also

692
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: charged with d u I because of a controlled substance

693
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: that's not booze. Dr Bethany, No, no, it's not. We

694
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: don't know what it is. Meth amphetamine, pot um opioids

695
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: to such an opioid epidemic. Now, but I want to say, Nancy,

696
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: regarding this ten year old daughter, I mean, a mother's

697
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: job is to protect her child. That is a mother's

698
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: primary job from a the time of child comes into

699
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: the world. She got behind the wheel under the influence

700
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: of a controlled substance with her ten year old daughter

701
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: in the in the car. Is it's so astounding to me.

702
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: Ten thousand approximate ten thousand people die every year in

703
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: alcohol or substance abuse related crashes. Do you know over

704
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: half of those people who die are passengers in the vehicles.

705
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: That really sheds a different light on this. And I'm

706
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: sure when mom got drunk or used drugs of some

707
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: sort that night, she never anticipated a murder charge coming

708
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: out of it. This is what I know about Malayia.

709
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: She was beautiful. They say she never met a stranger.

710
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: She was at you Fall a Primary in Abbey Vale Elementary.

711
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: We also know that she was an honor roll student

712
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: and got award after award for perfect conduct. On top

713
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: of it, she never once in her life got a demerit.

714
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: She was a cheerleader for the peewee teams and secretary

715
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: of the four H Club. I gotta tell you something,

716
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: DT Bethany. When I heard secretary of the four H

717
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: Club head Heart, Hands and Health, it nearly broke my heart.

718
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: A ten year old little girl that's Lucy and John

719
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: David's age, and I loved for h at where I

720
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: grew up in rural Georgia. There wasn't a whole lot

721
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: going on. And I lived for that next for h

722
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: meeting and it just opened up a whole world of

723
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: topics and ideas and activities I didn't know anything about.

724
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: And between the bookmobile and the four Age Club that

725
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 1: was pretty much it. And the Methodist church up the street,

726
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: that was my world. And this little ten year old

727
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: girl is dead for what uh, you know, for what

728
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: a blunt? What? What? For what exactly? And you know,

729
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: Nancy Spring up the four Age this little girl is

730
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: functioning so highly in the world. I mean, she's she's right,

731
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: she's involved, never met a stranger, all the things that

732
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: you're describing, and yet she's living in the household with

733
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: an addict um. You know, where they're smoke, there's fire.

734
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,479
Speaker 1: As we always say, this is not the first time

735
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: this mother has gotten behind the wheel high. It's not

736
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: the first time this ten year old little girl has

737
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: had to live with this mother or be in the

738
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: presence of this mother while the mother is using so UM.

739
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: I wonder what what situations was this little girl exposed to,

740
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: you know, for children to be around an adult who

741
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: is high, especially their own parents. It produces feelings that

742
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: are almost undigestible to see the parent with their eyes

743
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: glazed over, or stumbling around the house, or or unresponsive,

744
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: or or just to not have that connection with the parents,

745
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: to know that the parents checked out. So obviously, this homicide,

746
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: this murder, that the death of this little girl, it's

747
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 1: the worst of it. But this girl has been through

748
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: how prior to this she has not had a happy life.

749
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: She succeeded in life despite the type of mother that

750
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: she had. You know, it's heartbreaking. I want to go

751
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: back to Larry Mayor, uh contributing reporter investigative reporter with

752
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com. Larry, I was reading about little girl.

753
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: Malaya's dream was to be a pediatrician for underprivileged children

754
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: in other countries and offer her services for free. She

755
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: loved her pet bunny Lola, and her sister. And this

756
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 1: is what I found so poignant. She loved to play

757
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: dress up in her mom's high heels. Her mom that

758
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: was d u I Barney killed her. Where is the

759
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 1: mom right now, Larry Mayor, Well, she was taken into custody.

760
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: I don't have a report on whether she has made

761
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: fail or if bond will even be available to her.

762
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: Oftentimes a murder charge there is no bail. But this

763
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: case is going before a grand jury, and it's entirely

764
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: possible that she wouldn't be granted bail until after a

765
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: grand jury proceeding was completed. Larry, thank you so much.

766
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: We are on the case. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off,

767
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,