1
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Toad, and this

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,919
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. This is

4
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,119
Speaker 1: There No Girls on the Internet, where we explore the

5
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: intersection of identity, technology and social media. And today I

6
00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,600
Speaker 1: want to talk about what's going on with NPR National

7
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 1: Public Radio, or honestly, I guess i'ld say that I

8
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: don't really want to talk about it. If anything, I

9
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: kind of don't want to. This is the kind of

10
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,919
Speaker 1: story that I would probably be tuning out. But it's

11
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,280
Speaker 1: been kind of a one two punch with this NPR

12
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 1: story that dovetails with some of the issues that we've

13
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 1: talked a lot about here on There are No Girls

14
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 1: on the Internet, and I also want to connect them

15
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,960
Speaker 1: to some larger tech lessons that folks clearly have not learned.

16
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,040
Speaker 1: So let's get into it. Yuri Berliner, who had been

17
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,760
Speaker 1: NPR's senior business editor up until recently, published a piece

18
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 1: in Free Press basically calling out the fact that audiences

19
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 1: have lost trust in National Public Radio or NPR as

20
00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: an institution, and basically, Berliner blames wokeness and DEI for

21
00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,640
Speaker 1: this larger distrust in journalism. More broadly, in his piece,

22
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 1: he argues that NPR used to be really balanced and

23
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 1: fair and curious, but, as he puts it, quote in

24
00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 1: recent years, however, that has changed. Today, those who listen

25
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: to NPR or read its coverage online find something different,

26
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 1: the distilled worldview of a very small segment of the

27
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 1: US population. If you're conservative, you will read this and say, duh,

28
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,640
Speaker 1: it's always been this way, but it hasn't. So Berliner

29
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 1: paints twenty eleven as this rosy golden age of trust

30
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,399
Speaker 1: at NPR, you know, before things like DEI and wokeness

31
00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 1: ruined everything. He writes, an open minded spirit no longer

32
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,200
Speaker 1: exists within NPR, and now, predictably, we don't have an

33
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,360
Speaker 1: audience that reflects America. So Berlinard argues that Trump really

34
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 1: changed a lot of NPR's culture and trust and standards.

35
00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,280
Speaker 1: He uses things like NPR not really reporting on the

36
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 1: Hunter Biden laptop story and not reporting more on the

37
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: COVID lab leak theory. He uses these as examples that

38
00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,519
Speaker 1: show that since the rise of Trump, NPR is basically

39
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: like in the bag for the Democratic Party. He also

40
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 1: talks about how in twenty twenty, when many of us

41
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: were having like a national conversation about race, NPR's former CEO,

42
00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,080
Speaker 1: John Lansing published a piece that prompted staffers to really

43
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,240
Speaker 1: do some self analysis in their own roles in things

44
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,920
Speaker 1: like systemic racial issues. So apparently NPR's CEO writing a

45
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,360
Speaker 1: piece suggesting that NPR staff you know, think critically about

46
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,919
Speaker 1: their own biases and the way they might impact their reporting.

47
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,640
Speaker 1: Rather than that being just like thoughtful guidance for anyone

48
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 1: whose job it is to help people understand the world

49
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,320
Speaker 1: around them. Berliner acts like this was a terrible sign

50
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,440
Speaker 1: of wokeness run amok quote, and we were told that

51
00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 1: NPR itself was part of the problem. In confessional language,

52
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,640
Speaker 1: the CEO said that leaders of public media, starting with me,

53
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,240
Speaker 1: must be aware of how we ourselves have benefited from

54
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,359
Speaker 1: white privilege in our careers. We must understand the unconscious

55
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 1: bias you bring to our work and interactions, and we

56
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: must commit ourselves, body and soul to profound changes in

57
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,080
Speaker 1: ourselves and our institutions. He declared that diversity on our

58
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,400
Speaker 1: staff and in our audience was the overriding mission. The

59
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,560
Speaker 1: quote north star of the organization. Phrases like that's part

60
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: of the north Star became part of meetings and more

61
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 1: casual conversation. Now, y'all, do not really believe that the

62
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 1: former CEO of NPR said that diversity was now the

63
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 1: most important mission of NPR, more important than any other

64
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 1: part of NPR. Y'all don't actually believe that, do you? You

65
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 1: obviously don't because he didn't say it. I actually went

66
00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 1: back and read the piece that Berliner is referring to.

67
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: It never even suggests anything of the sort. It is

68
00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,240
Speaker 1: the most basic, toothless, like we care about diversity, ya

69
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 1: diversity message that you can imagine. But Berliner says that

70
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 1: the CEO basically said that diversity now matters more than

71
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 1: our journalism, which he just flat out never said that,

72
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,200
Speaker 1: just like doesn't appear in that piece. Berlinard goes on

73
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 1: to complain about what our frankly pretty fairly humdrum inclusion

74
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,600
Speaker 1: efforts that NPR enacted in twenty twenty, things like tracking

75
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 1: the makeup of their podcast listenership and guests. Honestly, these

76
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,599
Speaker 1: are things that I kind of can't believe that NPR

77
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 1: did not have in place before twenty twenty. That is

78
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 1: how standard these practices are like even the Shoe String

79
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,159
Speaker 1: startup podcast that I work for do and always have

80
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,359
Speaker 1: done this. It is a very common thing. Berliner in

81
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: his piece he makes it sound like this is like

82
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: the identity police, grilling everybody about their race and ethnicity

83
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: and identity, rather than just having it be something that

84
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,599
Speaker 1: makes sure that your guests aren't like, oops, all white

85
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,479
Speaker 1: men talking about different issues. Right. So NPR also got

86
00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 1: some funding to do work highlighting specific underrepresented groups through

87
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,240
Speaker 1: things like affinity groups for staff like Jewish NPR staffers,

88
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,360
Speaker 1: or women, gender expansive and transgender people in technology throughout

89
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 1: public media. Right, And what Berliner does in his piece

90
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,279
Speaker 1: is basically just assume that all of this is like progressivist,

91
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 1: all of this is like synonymous with the Democratic Party.

92
00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 1: And this is a big gripe quote. And this I

93
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 1: believe is the most damaging development at NPR, the absence

94
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,279
Speaker 1: of viewpoint diversity. He says that he doesn't think there

95
00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: are enough Republicans working at NPR, and apparently he tried

96
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,440
Speaker 1: to actually get a meeting with NPR's former CEO to

97
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,039
Speaker 1: discuss all of this, but that meeting ever happened, which

98
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 1: is why he is breaking NPR's rules and publishing this

99
00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,440
Speaker 1: piece in free Press. So one quick note that I

100
00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 1: feel like I have to add for context is that

101
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,159
Speaker 1: he published this piece in free Press. I don't really

102
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 1: enjoy talking about this particular subset of like soft media

103
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 1: grifter types, because I think it quickly gets into like

104
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,560
Speaker 1: a who's who of who's the worst, And these people

105
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,279
Speaker 1: are all so boring that I just cannot stand to

106
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,039
Speaker 1: think about them. But basically, all you need to know

107
00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,479
Speaker 1: about Free Press is that it is a substack media

108
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: publication run by Barry Weiss, and it's one of those

109
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,240
Speaker 1: places where like nobody has principles or cares about free

110
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: speech but us, and you know, everybody who is writing

111
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,760
Speaker 1: is like just asking questions. We honestly could do an

112
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 1: entire episode on Bari Weiss, But basically, you know the type.

113
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,720
Speaker 1: These are not people that I would say are operating

114
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 1: in good faith, and their entire thing is branding themselves

115
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 1: as these brave free speech truth tellers who are the

116
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,479
Speaker 1: only ones who think for themselves and are being punished

117
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 1: for it. And they continue to say that as they

118
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 1: get these huge platforms and lots of money to demonstrate

119
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 1: just how unlistened to they are. Again I'm being glib,

120
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 1: but you know the type. So it is really hard

121
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,920
Speaker 1: for me to see Berliner publishing this piece in free

122
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 1: press as anything other than this really calculated move to

123
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,039
Speaker 1: turn himself into a martyr person who is canceled for

124
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 1: telling the truth about whoa like be real? Had you

125
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,960
Speaker 1: ever heard of the name Yuri Berliner before he published

126
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,560
Speaker 1: this piece and everybody started talking about it exactly, So

127
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,720
Speaker 1: the exact right wing conservative voices in media that you

128
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 1: would expect are completely lapping this piece up. And remember,

129
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: he is not sharing this piece in a vacuum. It

130
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: is being used as yet another data point in the

131
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 1: ongoing conversation about defunding NPR and sowing distrust in our

132
00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 1: public institutions in general, like Senator Ted Cruz is renewing

133
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,520
Speaker 1: calls to defund PR. And again, I think a reason

134
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,360
Speaker 1: why he published this piece was to tap into that

135
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: particular ongoing conservative argument. So to me, this entire thing

136
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 1: reads like Berliner's kind of coming out party to curry

137
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 1: favor with a particular kind of conservative media circle. I mean,

138
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: why just retire when you can do this whole thing?

139
00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 1: So Berliner was suspended from NPR for five days for

140
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,640
Speaker 1: publishing this piece without NPR's permission, which is pretty clearly

141
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 1: against the rules at NPR, and then he resigned. He

142
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 1: blasted NPR's new CEO on the way out, saying, quote,

143
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,680
Speaker 1: I cannot work in a newsroom where I am disparaged

144
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,200
Speaker 1: by a new CEO whose divisive views confirm the very

145
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 1: problems at NPR that I cite and my free press essay.

146
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,720
Speaker 1: And honestly, I'm sure that he probably will get a

147
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,559
Speaker 1: nice little booth in recognition from all the right people.

148
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: Right wing outlets are already calling him a quote whistleblower,

149
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 1: which as the host of a podcast where we talk

150
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,520
Speaker 1: to real whistleblowers, women who have risked their livelihoods and

151
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,800
Speaker 1: their actual safety and sometimes even their actual lives to

152
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,280
Speaker 1: speak up about wrongdoing, to actually speak truth to power,

153
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 1: that is so offensive to me to see this white

154
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: man like white man, irked by DEI and woke, being

155
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,200
Speaker 1: painted as a whistleblower.

156
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:13,199
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break.

157
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 1: At here back. So, after his piece came out, fifty

158
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,080
Speaker 1: NPR staffers wrote an open letter to NPR's new CEO,

159
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,439
Speaker 1: Catherine Marr, who will talk about more in a moment,

160
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 1: demanding that she issue a public rebuke of the quote

161
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,199
Speaker 1: factual inaccuracies and illisions in his piece. So right here

162
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: is where I was going to do an entire segment

163
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,720
Speaker 1: kind of responding to and pointing out the various factual

164
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 1: inaccuracies in his piece. But it just kind of doesn't

165
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,440
Speaker 1: even seem worth it. Like Berliner suggesting that it is

166
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,840
Speaker 1: DEI efforts in media that have run amok and that

167
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,680
Speaker 1: is the reason why media and institutional trust is suffering,

168
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,160
Speaker 1: is just ridiculous, and at some level it gets really

169
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,800
Speaker 1: exhausting and repetitive to keep pushing it back against this stuff.

170
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: When I was putting together the segment, I was like, Yeah,

171
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,480
Speaker 1: this is just me repeating the same things I've said

172
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 1: already about this kind of stuff, and almost doesn't seem

173
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: worth it to keep pushing back against this stuff. You know,

174
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,679
Speaker 1: it's like, why are planes falling out of the sky

175
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,800
Speaker 1: black people? Why can't my kid get into Harvard black people?

176
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,720
Speaker 1: Why don't people trust journalism black people? So after a while,

177
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 1: it does get a little tiring. So I'm not gonna

178
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,440
Speaker 1: include the bit where I really pushed back on his claims,

179
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 1: but I'll just cut to the chase and tell you

180
00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 1: what I actually think, you know that meme tweet where

181
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,760
Speaker 1: it's a bird saying I feel uncomfortable when we are

182
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,199
Speaker 1: not about me. I think that's kind of what's going

183
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,040
Speaker 1: on here. I think that what Berliner is actually saying,

184
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 1: if you read between the lions, is I liked it

185
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,680
Speaker 1: better when journalism was about white men like me. I

186
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: think he's somebody who's been in this business a long time.

187
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,000
Speaker 1: He's been in this business for twenty five years. I

188
00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: think in that time he has seen journalism go from

189
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,080
Speaker 1: mostly white to fairly white, and I don't think he

190
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,480
Speaker 1: likes it. I think that what he's actually saying reading

191
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,680
Speaker 1: between the lines is we need to go back to

192
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 1: the times when this whole thing was about white men

193
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 1: like me. I don't want to have to compete with

194
00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 1: the talents and interests and audience of people who are

195
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,680
Speaker 1: not white men, and that is the problem. I honestly

196
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,120
Speaker 1: don't think it is really that deep, and I'm kind

197
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,400
Speaker 1: of surprised to see so many media outlets responding as

198
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 1: if he like did raise some very deep existential issues

199
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: and questions beyond, like why is everything no longer exclusively

200
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,560
Speaker 1: about me? Like the fact that as a business editor

201
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: he clearly felt some kind of a way that the

202
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 1: big boss boss at NPR, like the CEO the main guy,

203
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 1: did not feel the need to meet with him to

204
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 1: discuss the gripes that he was trying to get on

205
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,640
Speaker 1: this guy's calendar. And this guy was like, no, I'm good.

206
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,199
Speaker 1: That tells me a lot, like what kind of person

207
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,800
Speaker 1: feels entitled that they can just meet with the CEO

208
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,600
Speaker 1: to discuss whatever their gripe is as opposed to meeting

209
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: with their direct manager or whatever. On top of Berlin

210
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,080
Speaker 1: are probably not liking the fact that the CEO did

211
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,559
Speaker 1: not feel the need to make time for his complaints.

212
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,200
Speaker 1: When that CEO left NPR then goes and hires a

213
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 1: young woman to replace him, and I bet berlinerd didn't

214
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 1: like that and saw a young woman getting hired as

215
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,959
Speaker 1: yet another sign of wokeness run amuck at NPR. Now,

216
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,960
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off

217
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 1: like I am defending NPR here, because I do think

218
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,199
Speaker 1: that they have some issues that are impact in audience

219
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 1: trust much like media and journalism, just as an institution

220
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,800
Speaker 1: broadly does. Media trust is down and people are feeling

221
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,320
Speaker 1: disillusioned with journalism as an institution. Last year, a Gallup

222
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,200
Speaker 1: poll found that the thirty two percent of Americans who

223
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 1: say that they trust mass media quote a great deal

224
00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,200
Speaker 1: or a fair amount to report the news in a full,

225
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 1: fair and accurate way Tide Gallup's lowest historical reading, which

226
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,320
Speaker 1: was previously recorded in twenty sixteen. So this distrust thing

227
00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,520
Speaker 1: is real and NPR absolutely should be grappling with it,

228
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,920
Speaker 1: But blaming wokeness as the culprit just does not hold water.

229
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: Alicia Montgomery, a black woman who worked at NPR since

230
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 1: before Berliner worked there. She joined in nineteen ninety seven

231
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,880
Speaker 1: and he joined in ninety nine, published an excellent piece

232
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 1: in Slate, where she now works, called the Real Story

233
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 1: behind NPR's Current Problems. The entire piece is worth a read.

234
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,679
Speaker 1: We will put it in the show notes, but basically

235
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 1: she throws cold water on this idea that the problems

236
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 1: that NPR is having with audience trust is because of

237
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,160
Speaker 1: black people and like too much diversity and woke. She writes,

238
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 1: it did take a kind of courage for Uri to

239
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,120
Speaker 1: publicly criticize the organization, but it also took a lot

240
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 1: of the wrong type of nerve. His argument is a

241
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: demonstration of contemporary journalism at its worst, in which inconvenient

242
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 1: facts and obvious questions were ignored and the facts that

243
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: could be shaped to serve the preferred argument were inflated

244
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,760
Speaker 1: in importance. So I mentioned that Berliner talks about twenty

245
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 1: eleven as a kind of golden age of NPR trust,

246
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, the good old days before Race and Woke

247
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 1: and DEI were sort of runn am up. Alicia is

248
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,560
Speaker 1: like wrong. She points out how this nostalgic view really

249
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,480
Speaker 1: is revisionist and completely self serve on his part, She writes,

250
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 1: take a step into the way back machine into twenty

251
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,400
Speaker 1: eleven Fury's so called golden age. That's the year when

252
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,199
Speaker 1: senior members of the development team fell for a scam

253
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 1: set up by professional provocateur James O'Keefe. The aftermath took

254
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,600
Speaker 1: them out and toppled the then CEO and President, Vivian Schiller.

255
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: It came months after the ill timed, clumsy firing of

256
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,960
Speaker 1: Juan Williams, which led to senior Vice president of News

257
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: Ellen Weiss residing under pressure. Fury also leaped frogs over

258
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 1: a long list of contemporary fuck ups and questionable calls

259
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 1: that could explain the growing public distrust that concerns him.

260
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,400
Speaker 1: There are questions about NPR legal affairs correspondent Nina Tottenberg's

261
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 1: personal relationship with Ruth Bader Ginsburg compromising her reporting, the

262
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,920
Speaker 1: departure of news chief Mike Orecis and other prominent men

263
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 1: in the newsroom after a wave of sexual harassment charges,

264
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 1: the exposure of systemic exploitation of NPR's temporary workforce, and

265
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: those are just the public problems. So Berlinard also claims

266
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 1: that a big part of NPR's down fall with the

267
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,640
Speaker 1: rise of Trump, and that NPR did not or could

268
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 1: not fairly cover Trump because like they were in the

269
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 1: bag for the Democratic Party. But unsurprisingly, Alicia remembers it

270
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 1: very differently. She writes URI's account of the deliberate effort

271
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: to undermine Trump up to and after his election is

272
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,720
Speaker 1: also bewilderingly incomplete, inaccurate, and skewed. For most of twenty sixteen,

273
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,600
Speaker 1: many NPR journalists wore newsroom leadership that they weren't taking

274
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 1: Trump and the possibility of him winning seriously enough, but

275
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: top editors dismissed the chance of a Trump win, repeatedly

276
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,840
Speaker 1: declaring that Americans would be revolted by this or that

277
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 1: outrageous thing he'd said or done. I remember one editorial

278
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 1: meeting where a white newsroom leader said that Trump's strong

279
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 1: poll numbers wouldn't survive his being exposed as a racist.

280
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 1: When a journalist of color asked whether his numbers could

281
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 1: be rising because of his racism, the comment was met

282
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 1: with silence. In another meeting, I and a couple of

283
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,680
Speaker 1: other editorial leaders were encouraged to make sure that any

284
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 1: coverage of a Trump lie was matched with a story

285
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,520
Speaker 1: about a lie from Hillary Clinton. Another colleague asked what

286
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 1: to do if one candidate just lied more than the other,

287
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 1: another silent response. And again I feel like Berliner's claims

288
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 1: here about media, particularly NPR, like being too hard or

289
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: unfair on Trump, is a historical to the point of

290
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: being like a little bit gas lighting, Like when Trump won,

291
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 1: how many interviews did we all have to watch with

292
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,960
Speaker 1: like economically anxious rural Trump voters that we were told

293
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 1: that we all needed to be listening to, to the

294
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 1: point where it almost became a bit of a media cliche, right,

295
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,680
Speaker 1: like big city reporter goes to a rural diner to

296
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 1: find out what's what? Like did that not happen? Did

297
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 1: we dream it because I remember it, Alisha writes, when

298
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 1: I came back to work on Morning Edition, I saw

299
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 1: no trace of the anti Trump editorial machine that URI references.

300
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: On the contrary, people were at pains to find a

301
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 1: way to cover Trump's voters and his administration fairly. We

302
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 1: went full bore on diner guide, a trucker hat coverage,

303
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: and adopted the right label to describe people who could

304
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 1: accurately be called racists. The network haud our flexive need

305
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,240
Speaker 1: to stay on good terms of people in power, and

306
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 1: journalists who had contacts within the administration were encouraged to

307
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,120
Speaker 1: pursue those bookings. We regularly set up interviews with Republican

308
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 1: officials and Trump surrogate, but it was tough because NPR

309
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,159
Speaker 1: always loved guests who would be insightful, honest, and perhaps

310
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 1: above all, polite. There were plenty of people who for

311
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 1: years fit that description across the partisan divide in official Washington,

312
00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 1: but they were scarce in the Trump administration. We changed

313
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 1: the format of live political interviews, adding what we called

314
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 1: a level set that would be a three ish minute

315
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,120
Speaker 1: after a conversation with a political operative or that's an official,

316
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 1: when a host and NPR reporter would try to fact

317
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,919
Speaker 1: check what had just been said. So this claim that

318
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 1: Berliner was making that NPR was in the bag for

319
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,439
Speaker 1: the Democrats and they did not fairly cover Trump voters

320
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,159
Speaker 1: just seems wildly out of step with what somebody who

321
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 1: worked there said happened and what we all saw happened.

322
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 1: Like if you were a during that time, I don't

323
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: think you need to tell me that a lot of

324
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 1: media outlets were bending over backward to provide fair and

325
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 1: balanced coverage of Trump's campaign, And I do think it's

326
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 1: worth looking at how that decision impacted media trust. I'd

327
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,119
Speaker 1: be willing to bet that coverage of Trump that was

328
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,480
Speaker 1: trying so hard to stay neutral instead of presenting the

329
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 1: truth about what he was actually saying and doing probably

330
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,439
Speaker 1: did impact audience trust and journalism. And it's not just

331
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: that Berliner doesn't think that that specific kind of bias

332
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 1: is worth talking about. It's that he's presenting a version

333
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 1: where that bias does not even exist and then telling

334
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 1: people that that is objective reality. More after a quick.

335
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:57,920
Speaker 2: Break, let's get right back into it.

336
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 1: So probably what I have found to be the most

337
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: part in her response is when she talks about NPR's

338
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 1: sometimes clunky handling of race. She says, if anything that

339
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: would be the real symptom of like wokeness, run them up.

340
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 1: In one anecdote, she talks about how there was resistance

341
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 1: to covering the violent MS thirteen gang after it had

342
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: become a major talking point in Trump's anti immigrant rhetoric.

343
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,719
Speaker 1: But this was while the gang was like murdering people

344
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 1: in DC, pretty close to NPR's headquarters, just miles from

345
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,879
Speaker 1: where many of the staffers actually lived. She writes, I

346
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 1: think a lot of critics would consider that wokeness pussyfooting

347
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: around an issue because it might offend people of color.

348
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 1: I saw it as a low key racial bias because

349
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: MS thirteen's victims were mostly poor Central American immigrants, the

350
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: kind of people we didn't think our affluent white listenership

351
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: would pay attention to. So, if you want to talk

352
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,159
Speaker 1: about times where politics or quote wokeness was actually dictating

353
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 1: coverage in a concerning way, this sounds like it would

354
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 1: be like a fruitful conversation to have, right, But that

355
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 1: is very different from what Berliner is doing calling MPR

356
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,439
Speaker 1: out for, which is just like too much diversity. It

357
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,439
Speaker 1: is such a lazy easy accusation that gets us away

358
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 1: from the issues that might actually be meaty or substantive.

359
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 1: Another example along those lines is when we were having

360
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,160
Speaker 1: a national conversation about police killings, there was a sort

361
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: of side question about like, oh, well, police also kill

362
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 1: white people under shady circumstances too, what about that? And

363
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 1: Alicia writes that it seemed like nobody at NPR really

364
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that. She talks about how the

365
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: team at the race focused podcast Code Switch, which is

366
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,439
Speaker 1: one of my favorite podcasts, was the only team with

367
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,360
Speaker 1: n NPR to cover a police killing of an unarmed

368
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: white teenager named Zachary Hammond. She suspects the reason why

369
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: none of the other units within NPR covered it is

370
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 1: kind of political in a sense because it would have

371
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 1: complicated this dynamic of getting to smugly think of themselves

372
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: as being on the correct side of the issue. Her

373
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 1: entire piece is worth reading, but ultimately she gets at

374
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: this point that I want to highlight, she writes, and

375
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 1: that's what the core editorial problem at NPR is, and

376
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,959
Speaker 1: frankly has long been an abundance of caution that often

377
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 1: crossed the border to cowardice. NPR culture encouraged an editorial

378
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 1: fixation on finding the exact middle point of the elite

379
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 1: political and social thought, planting a flag there and calling

380
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 1: it objectivity. That would more than explain the lack of

381
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: follow up on Hunter Biden's laptop and the lab leak theory,

382
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: going full white guilt after George Floyd's murder and shifting

383
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: to indignant white impatience with racial justice now. And I

384
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: think anybody who reads mainstream reporting or media knows exactly

385
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: what she is referring to, right, this kind of safe,

386
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: middle of the road reporting that is going out of

387
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: its way to not give any whiff of bias, to

388
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 1: the point that it's not actually useful in terms of

389
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 1: informing an audience anymore. Like I remember, when I was

390
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 1: working in news media, we had to walk back calling

391
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: things that were objectively obviously racist racist, Like you couldn't

392
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 1: just call something racist. We had to bend over backward

393
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: to use these weird phrases that like evoked race but

394
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: were not the word racist. And I remember there was

395
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 1: a story where it was some frat and there was

396
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: a video of these members of the frat on a

397
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: bus where they were singing this chant about how there

398
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: would never be an N word in their frat. And

399
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: so we were writing up that story and I called

400
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 1: it a racist chant, and my editor was like, no, no,

401
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 1: we can't say it's racist, and we had to walk

402
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 1: it back to I think the phrase that we used

403
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: was like racially tinged, which like, what does that mean

404
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: if somebody is on camera singing about how they'll ever

405
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 1: be an N word in their frat. I feel comfortably

406
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: comfortable calling that objectively racist, but we had to be like, ooh,

407
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: it's like racially infused. Like we're not talking about chili

408
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 1: oil here, we're talking about race. So Berliner's free press

409
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: piece calling out NPR for being too woke is one

410
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: piece of it. But now enter our old friend, enemy

411
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: of the show, Chris Rufo of the Manhattan Institute, who

412
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 1: openly manufactures disingenuous right wing panics using the New York Times.

413
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: He's the man that brought us the critical race theory panic,

414
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: the DEI panic, the Claudine Gay is a plagiarist panic,

415
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: And I guess now it's the CEO of NPR is

416
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: bad panic. And of course guess who is helping him

417
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: do this? The New York Times. So Catherine Marr was

418
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: named CEO of NPR recently. She does not have a

419
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: journalism background. She was most recently the head of Wikimedia Foundation.

420
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: So after Berliner's piece, old tweets of hers were resurfaced

421
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: by Chris Rutho. Now keep in mind these tweets were

422
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: things that she tweeted before she ever worked at NPR.

423
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: She wasn't a journalist when she tweeted them. It's things

424
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: like quote Donald Trump is a racist, which she tweeted

425
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. She was photographed wearing a Biden hat

426
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, and she tweeted about this dream that

427
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: she had where she went on a road trip with

428
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris and they both got nuts together

429
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: as a snack. Honestly, that is really it like pretty

430
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: shocking stuff, I know. So now people are coming out

431
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: of the woodwork close reading every public talk, every panel

432
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: that she's ever given, even in the years before her

433
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: tenure at NPR, to paint her in a bad light.

434
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: And this is such a familiar strategy here, to make

435
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: Catherine Mahr look foolish and embarrassing and to try to

436
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: make any kind of association with her look like it's

437
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 1: toxic because she is that foolish and that embarrassing. They

438
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: want people to be embarrassed to stick up for her,

439
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: to make sure that none of her allies publicly come

440
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: to her defense. They want NPR's leadership and board to

441
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: think that she is somebody who is too risky to

442
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: be associated with, just like Claudine Gay and crt Rufo

443
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: is very explicit that the point here is to make

444
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: her toxic and synonymous with negativity, even though she didn't

445
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 1: do anything wrong and the articles are already pouring in

446
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: helping Rufo do exactly that. Here's one headline NPR's new CEO,

447
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: Catherine Marr haunted by woke anti Trump tweets as veteran

448
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: editor claims bias. The New York Post even published a

449
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: piece today with the headline NPR's new CEO, who was

450
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: called out by whistleblower over pervasive left wing biased recently

451
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: purchased a two point seven million dollar NYC townhouse. The

452
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: piece talks about how she bought a three bedroom townhouse.

453
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: It is almost two thousand square feet, which like, yes, okay,

454
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: as someone who lives in a one bedroom shithole, that

455
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: sounds like a palace, But like, how is it news

456
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: that the CEO of NPR, who was formerly the CEO

457
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: of Wikimedia Foundation, who was married to somebody who was

458
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: formerly a lawyer at Lyft, How is it news that

459
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 1: she has a nice house? Like It's just so ridiculous

460
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: and disingenuous. In response to all this, an NPR spokesperson

461
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: said that Mar was quote not working in journalism at

462
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: the time and was exercising her First Amendment right to

463
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: express herself like any other American citizen. NPR also said

464
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: that she has upheld the network's code of ethics since

465
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: she was appointed, saying since stepping into the role, she

466
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: has upheld and is fully committed to NPR's code of

467
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: ethics and the independence of NPR's newsroom. The CEO is

468
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: not involved in editorial decisions. So listen to how The

469
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: New York Times writes about how mars old tweets came

470
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: to be in the news quote. Christopher Rufo, a fellow

471
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: at the Conservative Manhattan Institute, called attention to many of

472
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: miss Marr's posts on x and shared a response from

473
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: Tesla's CEO Elon Musk, who had responded to one of

474
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: miss Marr's posts that mister Rufo highlighted saying this person

475
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: is a crazy racist. If NPR wants to truly be

476
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: national Public Radio, it can't pander to the furthest left

477
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: elements in the United States. Rufos headed an interview to

478
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: do so. NPR should part ways with Catherine Marr. And

479
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: now he has gone from oh, she should be fired

480
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: to calling on NPR to be defunded and for the

481
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: staff to have masked layoffs. So here's my question. So

482
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: the NPR piece makes it sound like Christopher Rufo is

483
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: just this random person that we should care what he thinks.

484
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: Don't you think it might be useful for readers to

485
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: know who this guy is, Like, why should this random

486
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: guy from the Manhattan Institute, Why should anybody care what

487
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: he thinks about this lady's old tweets? Or maybe it'd

488
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: be great context for readers to have that. The New

489
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: York Times has actually mentioned Christopher Rufo quite a few

490
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: times during their breathless recent coverage of Clauding Gay's tenure

491
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: at Harvard University, which led to their coverage, or the

492
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: fact that Christopher Rufo specifically said that it would be

493
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: important for him to get pick up on that story

494
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: from the New York Times, specifically to launder the fact

495
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: that it was an attack coming from the right wing,

496
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: to make it seem like a more left wing or

497
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: moderate attack. Again, I don't know this because I'm some

498
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: media savvy person. I know this because I can read

499
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: and Christopher Rufo says it over and over and over

500
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: again in plain, unambiguous terms, And The New York Times

501
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: just pretends that that is not the case, when Rufo

502
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: is not even pretending. Just yesterday, he tweeted out the

503
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: New York Times story about the NPR CEO Catherine Marr, saying,

504
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: the New York Times is directly quoting the NPR tweets

505
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: I dug up over the last twenty four hours. We

506
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: are driving the narrative. If you dream about sampling nuts

507
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: with Kamala Harris, we will make sure America hears about it.

508
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: So he's not even pretending that he's not trying to

509
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: drive this narrative. And my question is, why is the

510
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: New York Times allowing this? Why is the New York

511
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: Times decided that this one person gets to dictate their

512
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: editorial coverage. And Neil dash put it very well on Threads.

513
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: He wrote, The New York Times exuplicitly lets its editorial

514
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: decisions be made by Chris Rufo, even as he admits

515
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: it's an intentional, bad faith campaign. The story here is

516
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: nothing to do with NPR. It's The Times not caring

517
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: that it's getting gamed with what it chooses to emphasize

518
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: an exercise. Find media executive faces criticism over supporting fascist

519
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: causes in their coverage. You won't because they think it's

520
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: news when Rufo says it, not when you are. I do.

521
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: Now I absolutely agree with him for the most part.

522
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. I don't know if I would

523
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: say that The New York Times is getting gamed here.

524
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: You know, you get gamed once or twice. Maybe you

525
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: got gamed, but you get gamed three, four, five times

526
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: like the New York Times. Maybe you weren't getting gamed.

527
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 1: Maybe you're teammates in the same game. I don't know.

528
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: And you'll notice that so far it's been Claudie Gay,

529
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: a black woman, and Catherine Marr, a white woman. Isn't

530
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: it interesting that Rufo keeps choosing people who are traditionally

531
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: marginalized women and black women as his targets. And you

532
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: know what that reminds me of Gamergate. So here's the

533
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: reason that I want to talk about this. If you

534
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: listen to our series Internet Hate Machine that we did

535
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: with the Cool Zone Media, you know that we talk

536
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: and think a lot about gamer Gate and the online

537
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: harassment campaigns against black women that predated Gamergate, and how

538
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: they were really weaponized for specific political gain. It is

539
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: one of my deepest angers that the powers that be

540
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: evidently learned nothing from any of that, And I would

541
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: argue that it is in part because the original targets

542
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: were black women, so everybody was just sort of like, oh,

543
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: who cares, and we missed the window to actually learn

544
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: anything or take anything away from it. But this is Gamergate.

545
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: This is disingenuously whipping people up into a frenzy and

546
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: weaponizing that to meet some political end. It is making

547
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: existence in civic and public life impossible for women and

548
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: then counting on media to write about it neutrally as

549
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: opposed to honestly, these are the exact same tactics. You know,

550
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: Gamergate was ten years ago, and people with power and

551
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: institutions have not learned a thing from it. Nobody is

552
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 1: served by the Internet becoming a never ending barrage of

553
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: Gamergate tactics, except the reactionaries and extremists who use those

554
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: tactics to ensure that they and they alone get to

555
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: determine who gets to be in public in civic and

556
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: political life. We deserve so much better, and we deserve

557
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: a media that has the balls to tell the truth

558
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: about it instead of just helping them along. In twenty

559
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: twenty four, you need to understand how to write about

560
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: it when actors are not working in good faith. You

561
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: cannot let provocateurs write the playbook. You need to be

562
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: helping the public understand the landscape and the players, which

563
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: I acknowledge that can be hard, can be complicated. Public

564
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: radio veteran and civic tech professional in North Carolina, Melody

565
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: Kramer actually has built tools to do this at a

566
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: hyper local level. She writes publics, radios, libraries, institutions, governments,

567
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: nonprofit websites need a strategy for when people are not

568
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: acting in good faith. We've been testing out various ways

569
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: to approach this at the hyperlocal civic blog I help run.

570
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: One is we call people out. Two is we provide

571
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: a ton of context for bad actors. Three we use humor,

572
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: stickers and all sorts of in person stuff. In short,

573
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: we're priming people to understand the contexts and players. Almost constantly,

574
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: we aren't neutral. Neutrality gives a platform to people who

575
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: don't operate in good faith, and they wep and eyes

576
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: objectivity and neutrality. We make clear what our point of

577
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: view is and we back it up with loads of evidence.

578
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: I've been using it as my testing ground over the

579
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: past two years, and it seems to be working in

580
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: all the ways we measure. We're all volunteers who care

581
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: a lot about North Carolina, and I just got to say, like,

582
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: if I sound tired and over this, it's because I am.

583
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: I am so sick of this. And like I said already,

584
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: Senator Ted Cruz is renewing calls for NPR to be defunded.

585
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: Senator Marsha Blackburn has already said that she's planning to

586
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: propose new legislative action that would threaten to cut national

587
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: public radios federal funding. We're spending all of this energy,

588
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: time and oxygen on this disingenuous panic over nothing, when

589
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: we could be working on any number of the real

590
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: issues facing us as a country. Heck, we could be

591
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: working seriously and meaningfully toward having people have more faith

592
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: and trust in journalism, but we aren't doing any of

593
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: that because we're too busy talking about this whipped up

594
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: panic over nothing. And it just feels like for the

595
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: women and the black women in particular, who went through

596
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: Gamergate as targets, they just did so for nothing. If

597
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: institutions have not learned by now how to respond to

598
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: this kind of thing when it happened, and honestly, we

599
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: should not have to be collateral damage to extremists gunning

600
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: for more political influence over our civic and public institutions.

601
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

602
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: out our merch store at tenggodi dot com slash store.

603
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

604
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at

605
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: Hello at tengody dot com. You can also find transcripts

606
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

607
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Toad.

608
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by

609
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison

610
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our

611
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: contributing producer, I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you want

612
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts.

613
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: Podcast from iHeartRadio check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

614
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts,