1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Chilling New details are now 2 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: just emerging in the murders of two little girls, the 3 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: case commonly known as the Delphi Case. Of course, I'm 4 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: talking about Liberty Libby and Abigail Abbey, two little girls 5 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: as just thirteen and fourteen that lost their lives, murdered 6 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: after a walk in a public park. Why are the 7 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: details just now coming out and what makes them so chilling? 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 9 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Serious x 10 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: one eleven. Once the hold up, Why don't we have 11 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: a suspect, a defendant on trial right now and the 12 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: murders of these two little girls, these girls younger than 13 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: my little Lucy. We're walking across a threshold train bridge. 14 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: They took a picture, a picture of who we believe 15 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: is the killer. They have sound of his voice. The 16 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: bodies were found. I believe there was DNA of the 17 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: p on the bodies. They were active on social media 18 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: leading up to the moment of their death. Why don't 19 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: we have the double killer and why is there a 20 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: shroud of secrecy surrounding their murders? I can tell you 21 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: one thing. If this had happened to one of my children, 22 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: I would blow that police station wide open until I 23 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: got answers. How many years have passed since these little 24 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: girls were slaughtered? When will there be justice again? Thank 25 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nations Series eleven. 26 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: First of all, regarding the new and chilling details that 27 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: are just emerging, take a listen to our friends. Wish. 28 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one 29 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while 30 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared 31 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes 32 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: on to say, based upon my training and experience, it 33 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to 34 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene. 35 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming 36 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only 37 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: a few seconds have been made public, that the girls 38 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: were followed by the suspect on the Monon Hybridge trail, 39 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: and that there were no visible signs of a struggle 40 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: or fight. Did you take in what she was just saying? 41 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: I sh the first time I heard this I had 42 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: to make a chart of what all we are just 43 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: learning about the murders of Abby and Libby? Missing clothing? 44 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: What the killer took some of the girl's clothing. That 45 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: tells me this absolutely was a sex assault. Why else 46 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: would he have had them undressed or take the clothes 47 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: off of them? Copious amounts of blood Heretofore we had 48 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: not known the cod cause of death. Now we're learning, 49 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: and it was very bloody crime scene staging of the 50 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: crime staging that typically suggest that the perp was not 51 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: rando random. A random killer kills and is out of there. 52 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: Who takes time to stage a scene and risk being 53 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: caught a souvenir? Is there a possibility the killer who 54 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: murdered these two little girls took souvenirs from the murder 55 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: to what relive the murders and the rapes if that 56 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: happened again in his mind? Over and over? And now 57 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: we know there are forty three seconds of video of 58 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: who we think is the killer, but the public has 59 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: only been allowed to hear a tiny portion of that 60 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: this happened in twenty seventeen. Why are they holding it back? 61 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to make sense of 62 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: what we know right now Doctor Jerry Crossing, psychologist, faculty 63 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: Saint Leo University, author of Operation so Os. Cheryl McCollum 64 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: on the Case from the get Go, Founder director of 65 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 66 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and 67 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: the star of a hit series Bodybags. With Joe Scott Morgan, 68 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: It's a podcast and it's on iHeart. Two special guests 69 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: joining us now Kevin Greenley, attorney and co host of 70 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: Murder Sheet podcast. You can find him on Facebook at 71 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: the Murder Sheet discussion group and with him senior reporter, 72 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: business insider, co creator of Murder Sheet and Mystery to 73 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: Me podcasts. Joining us out of Indianapolis is Anya Kane. 74 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: First of all, to you, Anya, tell me where this 75 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: new information was buried. Yeah, this new information was in 76 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: a search warrant that we obtained from twenty seventeen March 77 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen for the property of Ronald Logan. And 78 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: he is the man who owned the property where the 79 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: girl's bodies were found back in February of twenty seventeen. 80 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: Hold on, let me you know, I'm drinking from the 81 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: fire hydrant. From you and Kevin Greenley, both of you 82 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: with Murder Sheet Podcast. Ronald Logan. I know the name 83 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: because he owned the property where the girl's bodies were found. 84 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: And this was a search warrant where you found this information? 85 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: Am I understanding that correct correctly? On your chaine? That 86 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: is correct? Yet it is a search warrant and a 87 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: probable cause Affidavid, that's the FBI filed to get that 88 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: search warrant approved. Kevin Greenley joining me along with on 89 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: your chain from Murder Sheet Podcast. Missing clothing, copious amounts 90 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:51,239 Speaker 1: of blood staging. First of all, tell me about these 91 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: little girls missing clothing. Both details are really chilling, and 92 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: they really hilled us to the bone when we read 93 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: them in the Hey, Kevin, hold on just a second, Kevin, 94 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: we're saying chilling to me. That sounds like a script 95 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: and somebody's prompt her that some news talking head is reading. 96 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: Let's think about what we're hearing. Two little girls thirteen 97 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: and fourteen, that's my daughter's age and my son's age. 98 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: They are twins. A bloody crime scene, which means the 99 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: girls were stabbed or they were beaten, bludgeoned, with a 100 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: lot of blood, and then some of their clothes were missing. 101 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: It's almost out of a horror film, but it's real, 102 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: and it happened to a thirteen year old girl like 103 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: my little girl, and a fourteen year old girl unarmed 104 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: at a park. Chilling. It is certainly airbrushing what we're learning, 105 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: isn't it, Kevin Green, It really is. It almost made 106 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: me physically ill, if you want to know, it's true. 107 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: I live in a neighborhood that has kids at that age, 108 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: and to look at them living their lives and think 109 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: that there's some monster out there who looked at people 110 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: like that and instead sees them it's crag. It's it 111 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: makes you want to vomit. It's really just it's unbelievable. 112 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: You know Cheryl McCollum. You know Cheryl McCollum is the 113 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We 114 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: know each other because we have fought in the trenches together. 115 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: I met her when I was a felony prosecutor for 116 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: many years in inner city Atlanta. Never a lack of 117 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: business in inner city Atlanta, Cheryl. It never has ceased 118 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: to sicken me, and there were times when I would 119 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: be trying a case in them. You may or may 120 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: not have known when everybody would leave for lunch, I 121 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,479 Speaker 1: would just go to the bathroom and feel nauseous handling 122 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: bloody clothes looking at crime scene victims, especially with children. 123 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: I've never gotten over. Who could do this to a child? 124 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: Two little girls? I agree, Nancy. I don't know if 125 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: I know that you went to the restroom to do that, 126 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: but I vividly remember you would often touch the entire 127 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: case file and just say a quick prayer. I remember 128 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: that in this case. You sent me to Delphia more 129 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: than once. So I've been there, I've walked the scene, 130 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: I've walked the bridge, I've walked the trail leading to 131 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: the bridge. I've spent time with the family. And one 132 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: thing that sticks out to me that I want to 133 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: say right out of the gate, there is a difference 134 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: in a scene that is staged and a scene that 135 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: is posed. Tell it. If this perpetrator stage the scene, 136 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: they did that for their benefit. So you try to 137 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: make it look like over an accident or a suicide posed, 138 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: which I believe is what this scene is. If they 139 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: were posed, that is for the offender's gratification. He did 140 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: something to make it look a certain way that he 141 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: wanted for sexual gratification. You know, he was a freak 142 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: that did that right, just for everybody's keys is a key, 143 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it Israel Keys. I was thinking of BTK 144 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: Dennis rad buying torture kill. He would dress up his 145 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: victims after he raped and murdered them. A lot of 146 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: people don't know Ted Bundy would sometimes bathe his victims 147 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: and he would put on fix their hair and make up. 148 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: He would then have sex with their skull. But yes, 149 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: those are examples of the killer changing or say arranging 150 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: the scene in a way that gratifies their sex fetish. Correct. 151 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: So in this case, Cheryl, analyze what you're learning. I 152 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: believe again they were posed. I think having them undress 153 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: and redress, having taken an item again, that's for his gratification. 154 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: Somebody staging a scene wouldn't do that, like Drew Peterson 155 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: or Scott Peterson. They're trying to think, oh, somebody else 156 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: did this. This is not what you think. She drowned 157 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: in a dry bathtub. They're showing you something and telling 158 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: you it's something else to fool you. Okay, what she's 159 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: talking about is the former cop Drew Peterson, who killed 160 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: two wives. His third wife, Kathleen Savio, was found dead 161 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: covered in bruises in a dry bathtub. To make it 162 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: look like she had drowned, he killed her. Stacy Peterson's 163 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: body has never been found. I think I know where 164 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: it is, by the way, but that was staged, so 165 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: no one would ever know that she didn't run off 166 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: with a fake boyfriend. So to Cheryl's points, staging it 167 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: to make it look like, hey, I didn't do that. 168 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: It's very different from posing the scene for your own 169 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: sex gratification. Time stories with Nancy Grace, let me circle 170 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: back to you, Anya Kane, senior reporter with Business Insider, 171 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: which I love, and co creator of Murder Sheep. Anya, 172 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: tell me the facts that you have learned in your 173 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: investigation that jump out at you regarding the crime scene 174 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: of Abby and Liberty. Absolutely, Nancy. One thing that I 175 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: think is really key for people to take away from 176 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: this is that the FBI agent who wrote up this APPA, David, 177 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: said that the killer, most likely some of the injuries 178 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: would have gotten blood all over him. So that makes 179 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: us wonder how did this person potentially covered in blood 180 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: managed to escape unseen? That is an excellent thought. What 181 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: about it, Joe Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert champion. Yeah, 182 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you, Nancy, after reading this warrant, 183 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: there's a trope of information here for me, and they 184 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: give some indication here it's redacted, but they talk about 185 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: what type of weapon was used, and right before it 186 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: says the word right before the word weapon is written, 187 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: it's redacted right there, which means blacked out. And there's 188 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: only two choices here, a blunt weapon or an edged 189 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: weapon as a descriptor. My money right now is on 190 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: edged weapon because she talks about how much blood use 191 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: the term copious, which is just a huge volume of 192 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: blood that's involved in this case. You're not necessarily going 193 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: to get that so much with a blunt force type 194 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: of death. But with an edged weapon, particularly if you're 195 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: talking about multiple, multiple deep stab wounds, you're you're going 196 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: to the perpetrator will literally be bathed in blood. So 197 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: how does he get away with this? Um? And I'm 198 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: thinking that the individual would have had to have a 199 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: location that they could have escaped too, and then stripped 200 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: all of their clothing off of off of themselves so 201 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: that no one's gonna darkness or left in the cover 202 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: of darkness. Yeah, because you know that's one of the things. 203 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: We've got a huge gap of time here, don't we, Nancy. 204 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: You know, relative to the discovery of the bodies, this 205 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing. We know that, So there is a 206 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of time that he would have had with 207 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: these poor young girls. And you know Mac had had 208 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: talked about the posing that would have taken place, that 209 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: in and of itself takes time. So that means that 210 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: the perpetrator will have spent a tremendous amount of time 211 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: with these bodies, handling the bodies, all these sorts of 212 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: things to get them into these positions, not to mention 213 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: the violence that preceded all of this as well. Okay, 214 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: let's analyze what you just said. Breaking it down, you 215 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: said the copious amounts of blood equate to either a 216 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma like beating somebody with the baseball bat 217 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: or a rock it causes a lot of blood, or 218 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: stabbing them a sharp edge implement as you described it. 219 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. Sharp edge implement would produce 220 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: a more bloody crime scene. However, you've got the other 221 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: factor to weigh in that a blunt object would be handy, 222 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: a rock, a tree, limb, something of that nature. So 223 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: those are two competing interests. I agree with you, sharp 224 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: edge produces more blood, but I can't tell how much 225 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: blood except copious. Another thing that I read in the 226 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: search warrant by the FBI, and I quote a large 227 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: amount of blood was lost by the victims at the 228 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: crime scene. It did note how the girls were wounded, 229 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: but that there were no signs of a struggle or fight. 230 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: Is that true, Kevin Greenley joining me from Murder Sheet podcast. Yes, 231 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: that is exactly what it says. And I also found 232 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: that to be terribly upsetting because I pictured those girls. 233 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: When did the tasks start? And I imagine a thirteen 234 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl being placed in that kind of danger. 235 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: Maybe you just breathe. You can't believe that it is 236 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: happening to you. You're not able to fight back because 237 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: you're in shock. And it just breaks my heart to 238 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: think about what those two girls went through in those 239 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: tragic final moments, and the posing of the bodies would 240 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: have to have been done post mortem after they were killed. 241 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: To doctor Jerry Cross and psychologists joining US faculty Saint 242 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: Leo University and author, what do you make of it? 243 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: At a point here from I use the word loosely 244 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: treating sex offenders, But the big thing with sex offenders 245 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: is the fantasy, okay, And in a treatment you always 246 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: need to get into their fantasy. So posing the scene 247 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: is part of their fantasy that they're going to take 248 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: away with them and relive. Okay, the fantasy is going 249 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: to be better than what really occurred. They're going to 250 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: work that in their mind, and that's going to become 251 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: like I say that, you know, it could be a 252 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: mass metorial type activity, but that fantasy is going to 253 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: be the takeaway from there. So the posing of the 254 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: bodies is going to be very important to him. That's 255 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: going to be the image he's going to take with 256 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: him for the fantasy life. Take alos do our cut? 257 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: Seventeen Our friends at Fox fifty nine Murder Sheet, A 258 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: podcasts investigating the unsolved murders of Abby Williams and Livy German, 259 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: provided us a copy of this search warrant, and it 260 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: reveals new acts about the crime scene where the girl's 261 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: bodies were found out back on Ron Logan's Carroll County 262 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: property on February fourteenth, twenty seventeen. This is the gate 263 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: that left down two days after the bodies were discovered. 264 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: Ron Logan showed us around his property that backs up 265 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: to Deer Creek and sits at the bottom of the 266 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: gorge where the Monon High Bridge towers up above where 267 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: Libby German and Abbie Williams met the man who took 268 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: their lives. See how the grounds much more matted down 269 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: right there there. I think you're right there. The search 270 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: warrant from March seventeenth, twenty seventeen, recently made public reveals 271 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: Libby German shot forty three seconds of video on her 272 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: cell phone of this man following them on the bridge 273 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: at approximately two thirteen pm on February thirteen. Let me 274 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: ask you to you on your chain with murder sheet 275 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: forty three seconds but police above only released sound that 276 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: they play on a loop. Maybe we got three or 277 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: four seconds. Why are they holding it back? I mean, 278 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: it's been five years. That's an excellent question, Nancy, And honestly, 279 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: I don't know it has been five years. I think 280 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: more information at this point could really help potentially close it. 281 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: I guess the other possibility is that there's not much 282 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: on the rest of it. We do know that this 283 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: exchange with the man saying, guys down the hill happened 284 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: at the end of the video, so in the beginning 285 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: it could have possibly been just the girls talking. Of course, 286 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: I'm just speculating here, but that might be a reason. 287 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: I think anything that they said would be valuable at 288 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: this point, like if they said, hey, here he comes again, 289 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: that would tell me he had been stalking them. Something 290 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: they said to start with could be probitive. It could 291 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: prove something. Take listen now to our cut eighteen. Our 292 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: friend Russ McQuaid let me German shot forty three seconds 293 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: of video honors phone of this man following them on 294 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: the bridge at approximately two thirteen pm on February thirteenth, 295 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: and at noon the next day, the girl's bodies were 296 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: found on Logan's property. There was quite a loss of blood, 297 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: and the investigators think the killer may have gotten some 298 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: of that blood on him, and item of clothing was 299 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: missing from one of the girls and quote. It also 300 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: appeared the girl's bodies were moved and staged, leading investigators 301 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: to theorize that the killer took a souvenir from the 302 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: crime scene and maybe took pictures. It looked to investigators 303 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: like the girls died without putting up a fight. Unknown 304 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: fibers and hairs were collected from the scene. I'm very curious, 305 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: Kevin Greenley, what do we know about unknown hair and 306 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: fiber collected from the saying of the girls murders. One 307 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: thing that was mentioned specifically was that they recovered animal 308 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: cares from the crime scene. Now, of course that could 309 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: be well hairs. You know, we're in a park. Who 310 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: knows people were walking their dogs and such. So we 311 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: do know that one of the persons of interest in 312 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: this case, Sagan Klein, lived in a home with a 313 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: pit bull, and we do know that police rated that 314 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: home a few months ago and they took that pit bull. 315 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: Presumably it has to see the hair's match. Brilliant, brilliant. 316 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: You know. The bodies of the girls, Abbey and Liberty 317 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: were found about fourteen hundred feet from the home of 318 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 1: Ron Logan. He was questioned, who's never named a suspect? 319 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: Agree or disagree? Anya Kane Um, Yeah, that's a that's 320 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: a great question. I would say that Logan. Here's the thing. 321 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: They filed the search warrant and executed it in March 322 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen. We never heard about it. Afterwards. He 323 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: died of you know, after having some legal trouble over 324 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: his DUIs, but never being charged for this case. So 325 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: one has to imagine that they weren't able to find 326 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: enough to charge him, or perhaps some other evidence came 327 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: up to make them look another way. There's certain compelling 328 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: things within this search warrant, but nothing that necessarily points 329 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: to a history of being violent with children. Yeah. Well, 330 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: there was nothing to say that Scott Peterson would kill 331 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: his wife an unborn child either. So I've heard that 332 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: argument many many times before. He's never done anything like this. 333 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: So what you're just the messenger. I get it, Anya, 334 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: but I don't like the message. Take a listen. When 335 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: we're speaking of ron Logan, take a listen to our 336 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: cut fifteen our friends at WISHTV. The search warrant is 337 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: for the property of Ronald Logan, who owned the land 338 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: where the girls were found dead. It describes his activity 339 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: the data girls went missing. The agent says Logan claimed 340 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: someone drove him to an aquarium store in Lafayette on 341 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: the afternoon of February thirteenth, at the time the girls disappeared. 342 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: But the agent says these statements were found to be 343 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: factually false and intentionally designed to deceive law enforcement officers. 344 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: The agent says Logan contacted his cousin and asked him 345 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: to tell that story before the bodies were found. Based 346 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: on investigator's experience, it is reasonable to believe that the 347 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: creation of an alibi prior to the discovery of a 348 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: crime indicates culpability or knowledge of the crime. That sounds 349 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: really technical, But what I think they're saying, doctor Jerry 350 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: Crossen joining me from Saint Leo University, is this guy 351 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: Ron Logan asked his cousin to lie about an alibi 352 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: the afternoon of the Double Martyrs before the bodies were found. 353 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Yes, he probed. He either 354 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: knows more than he's tell them. There's possibilities involved, you 355 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: know when you look at that time window two with 356 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: the posing, that took time, and if you know the environment, 357 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: if you're safe and secure within that environment of the crime, 358 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: you're going to take time to pose because you know, like, hey, 359 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: I'm fourteen hundred feet away from my residence, fourteen hundred 360 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: feet away from the two dead bodies. Nancy, Yeah, you 361 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: know it's just gonna go to you. It seems to 362 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: me if he had time to come up with an alibi, 363 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: he had have time to move the bodies away from 364 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: his house. Yeah, I would think so, And he would 365 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: have points of view. He would understand the topography, the 366 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: lay of the land. If you will, you know, where 367 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: can you see? You know, if you're up on that 368 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: bridge and just ask Max she was there, You can 369 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: look down, you can surveil the whole area. You know, 370 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: we're a point where you can hide. But one thing 371 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: I would like to include here, since we're talking that 372 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: this guy has died, now, this Logan fellow, I hope, 373 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: I truly hope that at some point in time they 374 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: took a DNA sample from this guy. Now I know 375 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: that we've talked about dog hairs and all that sort 376 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: of thing. Well, yeah, I know for a fact that 377 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: they did. As a matter of fact, take a listen, 378 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, it may ease your mind to our cut 379 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: nineteen our friends at Fox fifty nine. The search warrant 380 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: authorized investigators to seize any guns or knives Logan had 381 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,239 Speaker 1: in his house, take a sample of his blood or 382 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: bodily fluids, and his cell phone. This is my backyard. 383 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: My backyard just had to be bigger than most people. 384 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: How many people have a murder committed at their home 385 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: in their backyard. The FBI agent who requested this search 386 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: warrant wrote, quote, I believe there is probable cause to 387 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: believe that Ronald Logan has committed the crime of murder. 388 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: The document shows Logan created a false alibi for the 389 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: time the murders were committed, but he was never charged 390 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: in the case. Logan was sentenced to four years in 391 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: prison for violating probation in a drunk driving case, and 392 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: that may be why he lied to investigators. We don't 393 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: know if the search warrant turned up any evidence specifically 394 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: related to the Delphi case. Now, there's a really interesting point. 395 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: Sometimes people lie for a reason you don't understand. Like 396 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: they were high on pot, they were having an affair, 397 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: that's sarah alibi. They don't want to get their lover 398 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: in trouble. There's a lot of reasons why people may 399 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: come up with a lie. That doesn't mean they're the killer. 400 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: I got my sights on another guy, Keegan Klein. Take 401 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: listen to our twenty WHR. The transcript from the police 402 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: interview was first obtained by a podcast called The Murder 403 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: Sheet from a public court record that's now sealed. Klein 404 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: gave the interview in August of twenty twenty, after his 405 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: arrest on child pornography and exploitation charges. The interview confirms 406 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: the fake social media profile Anthony Shots, communicated with Libby 407 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: German just before her disappearance, and in the police interview, 408 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: Klin tells investigators, I literally have no clue how that 409 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: girl died. I don't know anything anything to do with it. Yeah, 410 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: that is a weird coincidence that I happened to talk 411 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: to her, Like, I get that after the bodies of 412 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: Libby and We're found on February fourteenth, twenty seventeen. Investigators 413 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: say the Anthony Shots profile told someone that he was 414 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: supposed to meet up with Libby, but she didn't show up. 415 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: Why the heck are you meeting up with a thirteen 416 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: or fourteen year old little girl? Anya Kane joining me, 417 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: a senior reporter, business insider, a co creator Murder Sheet, 418 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: What do you make of Keegan Klein? We already know 419 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: he had created this big fake social media post to 420 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: make him look like kind of like a young justin 421 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: bieber kind of ish, which he looks nothing like in 422 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: real life. And what is he doing trolling for thirteen 423 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: and fourteen year old little girls? That's a great question. 424 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: I mean, what police are saying, what they're accusing him 425 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: of is basically pretending to be this hot, rich guy 426 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: who has a lot of money in cool cars in 427 00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 1: order to form romantic attachments with underage girls online and 428 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: basically tricked them into sending him inappropriate nude pictures of themselves. 429 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: Like it's a really disgusting, heinous operation that he's been 430 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: linked to with this Anthony Shots profile. And so what's 431 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: really interesting about him, as per the Delfi case is 432 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: we know that Anthony Shots, the profile was in communication 433 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: with Liberty German right before her murder. When you say 434 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: right before, what do you mean by right before, the 435 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: day before, the week before, the hour before, As far 436 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: as we know from the police interviewed the evening before 437 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: at the very least, they were in communication. And what's 438 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: he trying to meet her? What we know from the 439 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: police in that interview is they say Libby was apparently 440 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: enthralled by this profile and that she wanted to meet 441 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: up with him. She was being potentially catfished by this person, 442 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: who of course looked nothing and was nothing like what 443 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: he portrayed online. I'm very curious, Cheryl McCollum. You've got 444 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: Ron who made up an alibi for the time of 445 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: the murderers before the bodies are found. Now you've got 446 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: Kigan Klein, a real pos technical legal term. How do 447 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: you compare the t Schiryl? Well, I mean, you got 448 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: to look at Logan right out the gate. They were 449 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: found on his property, and then you find out he 450 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: kind of looks like the picture on the bridge, and 451 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: then law enforcement can't rule his voice out. And then 452 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: you've got the fact that he not only lies about 453 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: an alibi, he puts it out there before the bodies 454 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: are even found. And this is the most crucial to me. 455 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: His cell phone pained outside on the thirteenth going toward 456 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: the bridge. You cannot ignore that. You cannot ignore it exactly. Well, 457 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: then you've got you know, Keegan Klin, who's looking at 458 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: thirty charges of child porn, who actually had communication with 459 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 1: one of the victims. There ain't no way in hell 460 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: to ignore him. I'd be all about him until he 461 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: could clear that up for me, which I don't think 462 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: he can do, because remember when police showed up, he said, 463 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: and I quote and I agree with him. I think 464 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: he is and I think he should go away for 465 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: the rest of the time, because you're talking about somebody that, 466 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: in broad daylight, with people all around, on a rickety 467 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: extremely high bridge, that in a public part, takes on 468 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: two victims. This is a person that exsumed a ton 469 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: of risk. Of course, they're gonna have blood on them, 470 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: not only that, they have an article of clothing from 471 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: that victim that I can only assume based on my 472 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: training and experience, underwear, underwear of course all day. But 473 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: that's what you're talking about, is you're talking about one 474 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: person that could simply just walk right by their house, 475 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: put their clothes in the washing machine and get the 476 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: shine or getting blood off of them. You're talking about 477 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: another person that could walk from the crime scene to 478 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: that cemetery, getting his own car drive away. Nobody's looking 479 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: for the one of them. Time stories with Nancy Grace 480 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: to you, Kevin Greenley, Keegan Kleine versus Ron Logan, what 481 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: do you think, Well, that's a tough question because Kagan 482 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: clined we know was as we've said, he was communicating 483 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: with Abby, and pardon me, he was communicating with Libby, 484 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: and we know he had an unnatural interest in young 485 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: girls of that age, so we know he has that interest. 486 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: From the other hand, Ron Logan is there, and Ron 487 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: Logan is lying about his alibi on the day up, 488 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: and Ron Logan certainly looks more about there like the 489 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: picture of Bridge Guy than Kagan klined us. Absolutely, guys, 490 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut twenty two. Our friends 491 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: at WT eight are. It was shocking to me. That's 492 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: how Mike Patty described learning that someone using the social 493 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: media profile Anthony underscore Shots had been talking online with 494 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: his granddaughter Libby before her death, and that whoever was 495 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: using that profile the day Libby and Abby Williams were 496 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: murdered had plans to meet Libby on a trail near 497 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: Delphi that same day and ended up being one of 498 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: the last people to talk with the team before she 499 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: and Abbey were killed. As I've been let along by 500 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: the police this entire time that there wasn't any information there. 501 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: Obviously that was a piece of information they were holding 502 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: tight to their best, but those details came out last 503 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: month when a pair of local podcasters found a transcript 504 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: online of an interview police did with this man, Kegan 505 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: Kline in August twenty twenty, shortly after they arrested him 506 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: on child exploitation charges. That one hundred and ninety four 507 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: page document has since been sealed, but in it investigator's 508 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: question Cline about the social media profile they say he 509 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: admitted to creating six months before Libby and Abbey were 510 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: murdered to meet and get nude photos from underage girls, 511 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: meet and get nude photos with underage girls. Did he 512 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: mate Abby and Libby the day they were murdered? And 513 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: what about this document we're just learning about. They had 514 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: been for mercy podcast, would have stayed buried forever. Take 515 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: us our cut thirteen our friends at WISH. This nine 516 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: page request for a search warrant filed March seventeenth of 517 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than a month 518 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: after Libby German and Abby Williams were found murdered in Delphie. 519 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: This disturbing document, for the first time gives us an 520 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: investigator's description of the crime scene and what the suspect 521 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: may have taken with him. It made obtained the request 522 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: for the search warrant from the Murder Sheet podcast. The 523 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: same group that first published the interview transcript of Anthony 524 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: Schott's suspect Kagan Klein im Mate has confirmed the document 525 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: is authentic. The document, written by an FBI agent, describes 526 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: what instigators found when they discovered the bodies of Abby 527 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: Williams and Libby German on February fourteenth. The agent writes 528 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: a large amount of blood was lost by the victims 529 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the 530 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: victim's wounds, it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the 531 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: crime would have gotten blood on his person or clothing. 532 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: To Anna kay joining Us, co creator of Murder Sheet podcast, 533 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: what do you find to be the most probitive evidence 534 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: that you have uncovered in this FBI document and what 535 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: do you believe it means? The great question. I would say, 536 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: what I find to be the most compelling Here is 537 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: all the details about the crime scene. So I'm talking 538 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: about the blood, I'm talking about the brutality of the attack, 539 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about the fact that the killer would 540 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: have left covered in blood and left behind possible fibers, 541 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: hairs and whatnot that I think gives us a sense 542 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: of how this crime took place, and what these girls 543 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: went through, and the sort of horror that gets the 544 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: heart of this whole thing. You know, I think it's 545 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: easy to forget sometimes for people when they're just kind 546 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: of like trying to solve the puzzle and what happens, 547 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: but like to realize how horrifics this attack really was, 548 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: and how brutal the killer had to be to do 549 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: this to a thirteen year old and a fourteen year 550 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: old and how cowardly just gives us a sense of 551 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: what kind of person would do this and just how 552 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: twisted the mind of this person had to be too. 553 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 1: Psychologist doctor Jerry Crows and joining us right now, what 554 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: kind of a person are we looking for? What kind 555 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: of a person would kidnap two little girls most likely 556 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: right or sodomize them and then brutally murder them, either 557 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: with blunt force such as a rock or a softball 558 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: bat or an edged instrument such as a knife, which 559 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 1: means he came to the scene with the weapon, and 560 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: then take their underwear. What kind of mind is that. 561 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that come to my mind 562 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: right off, And first off, I want to know if 563 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: there was any seeming fluid left as any kind of 564 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: evidence that would show like some sort of a completion 565 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: of a sexual act. The perpetrator may not have been 566 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: able to perform any kind of a sexual act, and 567 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: then that would come out in the level of violence 568 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: that could manifest, and that to me, would account for 569 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: the bleeding out. I don't know what you're saying, cross 570 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: and taught regular talk Please. What are you saying that 571 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 1: his form of sexual release is to torture and murder 572 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: as opposed to obtaining an erection and ejaculating. Yeah, the 573 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: violence in the rage. I would also think that this 574 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: perpetrator had a here he said, couldn't perform. What are 575 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: you saying, Yeah, talk English to me, man, Okay, he's 576 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: not able to sexually perform. That rage is released through 577 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,879 Speaker 1: the violence of either cutting or beating him. I mean, 578 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: this is a thirteen year old little girl that from 579 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: I believe what you were saying earlier, Kevin Greenley joining 580 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: me from Murder Seet podcast. I think they froze my 581 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: little girl. And I've told this story before. It as 582 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: an example. Lucy and John Dave and I were walking 583 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: our dog. He's this big. We got him at the pound. 584 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: He was supposed to be a docks and I don't 585 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: know what he is. He's a mutt and he tries 586 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: to start a fight with every dog we see. He 587 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: actually started to fight with two rot Willers. They're huge, 588 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: big things with like teeth, their teeth. Well, I of 589 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: course had him on a leash, and Lucy, my little girl, 590 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: was walking, and well he got awa from her. He 591 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: jerked loose, and he ran and got between the two 592 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: Rotwallers and was biting it then barking at them. Well, 593 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: I ran over. My son ran over. I pushed him back. 594 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: I don't know why I did this, but I got 595 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: in there and got the dog out between two rotwallers. 596 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: I turned around at Lucy. She was still standing there 597 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: holding the leash like shock on her face. She's frozen. 598 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. I think they froze. Kevin Greenley, 599 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely what happened. These are two little 600 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: girls living in a small town in the heartland of America. 601 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: They're not used to this sort of horror, and thank 602 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: God for that, because this is not a part of 603 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: their life. And so when they confronted this, I think 604 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: they were just terrified and didn't know what to do, 605 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: and that just made it, unfortunately even easier for this 606 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: monster to do what he did to them. Nancy Cannet, Well, 607 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: that's freezing submit syndrome. It's like the fight and flight, 608 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: but when you're too young or not knowledgeable enough to 609 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: take fight or flight, you freeze and submit. What Carol 610 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, if you listen to the 611 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: killer's voice, he is calm. There's no rage, there's no adrenaline. 612 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: He just simply says, hey, guys down the hill. He 613 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: is so autopilot and what he is going to do. 614 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: There is no monster voice, there is no devil sound. 615 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: He's just a calm person. He I believe controlled them 616 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: from the jump. I believe he had a weapon that 617 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: he exposed to them and immediately had them under control. 618 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: That's why they didn't run in opposite directions. That's why 619 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: when he's talking you don't hear any sounds or words 620 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: or anything from them. He is in complete control, no 621 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: question about it. Yeah, Nancy, I gotta tell you, I 622 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: think this guy should have prepared the idea that he 623 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: would he would pull up at the scene and seek 624 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: out a weapon of convenience, like something to bludging them 625 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: with this guy showed up. Prepare you're right. I think 626 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: I think that there may even be restraint involving this. 627 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what form it's going to take, but 628 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: rope or some kind of binding, I think, and and 629 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: torture is part of this as well. I think that 630 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, again out of my baileyweek, but I think 631 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: that that's part of what you know. Kind of right 632 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: blows his hair back here. Guys, if you have any information, 633 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: or think you have information, even if you believe you're 634 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: not sure, please dial seven six five eight two two 635 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: three five three five repeat seven six five eight two 636 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: two three five three five. Thank you to everyone on 637 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: our panel today, especially our new friends from Murder Sheet Podcast, 638 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: Pizzy Grace Crimes Story signing off, goodbye friend