WEBVTT - #396 Wrongful Conviction: Junk Science - Footwear Comparison Evidence 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:03.840 Hey folks, Kate Judson here, I'm a lawyer and the 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.440 executive director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.719 We're back with another episode of Junk Science, a series 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.120 we first released in twenty twenty. But these stories are 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.720 just as relevant as ever. In this week's episode, Josh 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.360 will dive into the story of Dale Johnson and the 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.959 use of footwear analysis to wrongfully convict an innocent man. 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.280 It's yet another example of a highly subjective analysis that 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.800 is presented in court as objective fact. Just like other 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.440 types of pattern matching evidence, in court, testifying experts may 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:44.800 overstate the certainty of the evidence, overstate their conclusions, or 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:51.120 exaggerate their reliability. In fact, when looking at hair comparison 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:55.960 analyst testimony another type of flawed pattern matching, the FBI 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.880 and others found that analysts overstated their conclusions more than 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:08.000 ninety five percent of the time. There's no reason to 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.840 believe that other types of pattern analysis are any different. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:17.760 So sometimes analysts overstate or exaggerate, and of course sometimes 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:22.320 they're just playing wrong. Dale Johnson's case is an extreme 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.840 example of this area of flawed analysis, but there are 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.840 plenty more cases where footwear comparisons are used in a 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:34.160 problematic way, and likely many more exonerations to come. 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.679 It's a clear fall day in America's heartland. You sit 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.280 in a chair outside your trailer, contently looking out over 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.040 your farm. It's cool and the sun is setting behind 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.800 the dense forest that surrounds your property. Everything seems just right. 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.480 That evening, your stepdaughter in Net stops by with her boyfriend. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.160 You and your wife were pretty upset when Annette told 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.840 you she was moving away from the farm and moving 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.440 in with her boyfriend, Todd and his parents downtown. You 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.280 don't want a Net to be caught up with someone 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.000 from town. All those townies seem to care about his 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.919 church and gossip. You want nothing to do with them, 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.160 and they don't seem to want anything to do with you. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.160 But in Nette's already eighteen, she's an adult. You can't 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.000 really control her. You try to act supportive, so you 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.480 nod to Todd and help a Nette pack the last 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.720 of her things into his trunk. You give her a 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.720 hug before she gets into the car with him, and 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.760 you watch as Todd pulls away to drive them back 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:47.480 into town, and you're feeling a little helpless. The next 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.320 day is pretty routine for you. You pick up loads 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.680 of hay to bring to your barn. It's strenuous work. 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.920 You work hard all day. You're exhausted, and you go 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:03.280 to bed early. The next morning, the phone rings. It's 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:08.400 Todd's mother. She says, are net in Todd with you? No, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.760 you say, I thought they were with you. Tod's mother 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.520 becomes frantic. She says, the kids went for a walk 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.560 around four pm yesterday and they never came home last night. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.840 But there's something else going on there. There's a hint 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.040 of something, a tone of accusation in her voice, like 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.200 she's somehow blaming you. You hang up and call the 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.400 police immediately. You wait all day, hoping to hear something, 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:40.200 but there's nothing. You're just waiting and waiting, and the 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.200 police finally get back to you in the evening. They 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:48.600 can't find them. One sleepless night bleeds into another, and 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:53.320 then another and another. This is one terrible nightmare for 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.320 you and your wife. Ten days go on like this. 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:02.080 All you and your wife can do is it and worry. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.840 You're not eating, you're not sleeping, you don't know what 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:10.160 to do with yourselves. It's raining outside when you finally 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.200 get a call from an officer and you can hear 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.320 it in the tone of their voice. This is not 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.719 going to be good. The news I have for you 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.120 is not going to be easy to hear. He says, 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.760 we found Todd in a net in the Hawking River. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.880 Oh my god, you can't stand. Your body is trembling. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.480 You try to restate what the officer just said. You're 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.120 trying to wrap your head around what this means. You 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:46.000 found their bodies, their dead bodies. The officer says, they 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:51.640 didn't find their whole bodies, just their torsos. Their bodies 0:04:51.680 --> 0:05:02.279 have been dismembered. You're completely sick. Officers spend two days 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.640 searching the cornfields between the railroad tracks and the river 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.160 where the torsos were found. They find Todd in the 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.479 net's limbs and heads buried in shallow graves. You and 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.040 your wife drive into town to the police station, and 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.800 you're taken aback by the attitudes of these cops. When 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:24.240 you're separated from your wife and pulled into an interrogation room, 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.920 officers tell you to take off your boots, your shirt, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.400 your pants. You sit shivering in your underwear for eight 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.680 and a half hours and then a detective comes in. 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.080 He sits down right next to you, puts his finger 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:44.000 in your face and says, you did this. We know 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.120 you did this. We found your bootprint down by the riverbank. 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.640 Once we match that boot to the print that was 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.760 left at that riverbank, it'll prove you were there. You 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:59.320 killed your stepdaughter, and then you sick bastard, you cut 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:04.320 off for arms, her legs, her head. You better confess, 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.560 because I'll tell you right now it's going to get 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:11.080 worse for you if you don't. You say, over and 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.760 over and over again, what in the world are you 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.120 talking about. I didn't murder a net I just came 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.000 here to help you find out who did What is 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.520 this all about. They don't have enough evidence to charge 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.800 you for the murder of a net and Todd, so 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.360 they have to let you go. They impound your car 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.680 so it can be searched for evidence. It's dark and 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.520 cold when they drive you home. They let you and 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.279 your wife out of the car and you're still naked 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.960 except for your underwear. You walk barefoot to your trailer. 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.280 Your toes are totally dumb. By the time you get 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:53.000 to the door. Downtown, rumors start to spread. People are 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.279 saying this murder must have been some kind of cult ritual, 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.600 that it must have been you who did it. The quiet, 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.720 stern stepfather who never says much, never goes to church, 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.760 keeps his family hidden away. Who knows what goes on 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.400 at that farm. They didn't like you before, but now 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.760 they're straight a hostile. They cross the street to get 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.160 away from you when they see you coming. It takes 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.880 them a year to build the case against you. Are 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.280 they even looking at other suspects. The whispering of your 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.680 name around town grows to a fever pitch. You can 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:37.160 hear their accusations ring in your ears. Murderer, molester. You're 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.640 eventually arrested in charge with the butchering murder of your 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:46.040 stepdaughter and net and her boyfriend Todd. When you finally 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.200 go to court, you do something very out of the ordinary. 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.840 You waive the right to a jury trial. Finding twelve 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:58.240 impartial people in Logan, Ohio really not going to happen. 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:03.720 The newspapers, everyone around town, they all think you're guilty. 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.360 Everyone just wants to feel safe again. They won't be 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:12.280 satisfied until someone is convicted and they are sure that 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.280 person is you instead of a jury. You put your 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.280 fate in the hands of a three judge panel. A 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.880 jury might not see it, but three judges they have to. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.800 It's their job to apply the facts to the law 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.120 without any outside influence from the court of public opinion. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.440 Your lawyer calls to the stand and FBI analyst who 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.360 says the plaster mold of what the prosecution claims is 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:42.280 your bootprint at the riverbank is quote unquote unsuitable. The 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.280 analyst says it lacks sufficient detail for meaningful comparison, and 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.640 that it looks more like the footprint of someone who 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.400 is walking barefoot. There is no way to claim your 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:57.880 boots match that print, So you're optimistic. But then the 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.880 prosecution calls an anthropology professor or to the stand. She 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.880 says she studied footwear impressions of countless samples. Her delivery 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:12.680 is slow and deliberate and really credible. She says, quote 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:16.400 no person's footprints are the same as another. They're as 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.120 unique as a fingerprint. I've analyzed the wear patterns on 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.000 the inside of the defendant's boot, and I can say 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:27.760 with certainty, scientific certainty, that the footprint found by the 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:34.840 riverbank was made by the defendant. This sounds unbelievable, but 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.000 you see the judges are nodding along. There's no wather 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:43.000 buying this is there. After a very short deliberation, the 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:47.640 judges apparently believe the testimony of the prosecution's anthropologists who 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.600 put you right at the scene of the crime. They 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:57.640 convict you, and you are sentenced to death. The story 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.440 you just heard is based on the murders of Nette 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:06.280 Cooper Johnston and Todd Schultz. Dale. Johnston was wrongfully convicted 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.600 and sentenced to death in nineteen eighty four. He was 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.800 exonerated in nineteen ninety, over twenty years after the murder. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.400 The true killer finally confessed, but even then the people 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.960 in the town of Logan still chose to believe that 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:27.280 Dale was guilty in one way or another. On today's episode, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.880 we're going to examine how a supposed footprint put an 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:38.439 innocent man on death row. I'm Josh Dubin, civil rights 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.920 and criminal defense attorney and Innocent ambassador to the Innocence 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:46.559 Project in New York. Today, on Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:52.199 we examined footwear comparison evidence, even when done correctly, impression 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.679 analysis of evidence like shoe prints and tire tracks as 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:01.400 purely subjective. Many experts recognize its limitations, but one so 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.120 called expert in particular push the limits of this forensic 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.760 discipline to produce horrific outcomes. It turns out that Dale 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.880 Johnson wasn't the only innocent person to be convicted of 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.080 a crime based on faulty footwear comparison evidence. 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.520 The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.280 of wrongful conviction with Jason Flahm and of the Last 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.120 Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to help 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:38.440 incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.760 Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.680 across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.760 and students. For more information on the work of the 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.040 Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.480 org or the Lastmile dot org. 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.400 In nineteen seventy six, archaeologists made one of the most 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:13.199 exciting discoveries of our time. They found footprints dating back 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:18.280 three point seven million years immortalized in the volcanic ash 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:24.680 in Tanzania, and they looked like human prints. Archaeologists were thrilled. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.880 They thought these footprints could shed some light on when 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:33.240 human beings began walking upright on two feet. Luis Robbins 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.800 was an anthropology professor at the University of North Carolina 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.320 at Greensboro. She too was excited about these footprints and 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:45.880 wanted to know exactly who left them behind. Louise had 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:50.079 been conducting her own studies in footprint analysis. She started 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.600 collecting footprints from people who were still alive. Five hundred 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.319 people put ink onto their feet and then stood on 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.440 a piece of paper. Based on those prince Louise tried 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:06.720 to find characteristics and feet that were specific to age, sex, stature, 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.840 and weight, using her own system of measurement. She would 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.400 then compare those characteristics to the footprints found in the caves. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.760 Her conclusion, no two footprints are the same. In fact, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.120 she thought she could tell a great deal about a 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.839 person just by looking at their footprint. Her methods were 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.280 never tested by her peers, nor were they confirmed by 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.480 other scientists, but Louise she thought she was onto something. 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.559 She claimed to do something no one else could identify 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:43.360 a person solely through their footprint, and so in nineteen 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.360 seventy eight, when a team of scientists went to excavate 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.040 the site in Tanzania where the prehistoric footprints were found. 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.560 Louise went too. When she saw the prince, she claimed 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.720 that one of them was left by a woman that 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.640 was five and a half months pregnant. Now, other scientists 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.840 on the expedition scratched their heads. It was hard enough 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.640 to figure out if the prints that they were looking 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.720 at were even human at all. No one had ever 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.160 claimed to know the gender of the person that made 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.199 the print, let alone of that person was carrying a child. 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:20.120 Then Louise took a dangerous leap. She positioned herself as 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:25.120 a forensic expert, authoring a book on footprints. She didn't 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.200 write this book with her scientific peers in mind, but 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.920 she wrote it for law enforcement and crime labs. Only 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.400 five pages in this book were dedicated to the analysis 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:41.600 of actual shoe prints, and yet, based on these five pages, 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.200 Louise claimed that she was an expert in this area 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.400 of forensic science. Lawyers began to hire her as an 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.600 expert witness. They told judges that her work was on 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.120 the cutting edge of forensic science. Critics of her work 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.360 called it Cinderella analysis. After all, she usually he made 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.640 sure that the shoe fit when she matched the suspects 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.240 foot to the shoe Prince found at a crime scene. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.720 In the more than twenty cases for which she testified, 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.640 twelve people, some of whom who have since been proven 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.040 to be innocent, were sent to prison, including Dale Johnston, 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:20.840 who was sentenced to death. 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.640 Dale Johnson and his wife Sarah at the time, came 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.280 down to Logan several days after the bodies had been discovered, 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:38.440 and they came to the Logan police department. They wanted 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.760 to be helpful to them, and Dale was immediately taken 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:47.800 up to an interrogation room. His boots, his pants, his 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.080 shirt were all confiscated. So he was sitting there in 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.960 the chair in his underwear and they were bombarding him. 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.120 You did it, didn't you? And we know you did it? 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.560 Over and over and over again. He kept saying, no, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.480 I have nothing. I would just I came into town 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:03.120 to try to help. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.920 Here today is Bill Osinski, a journalist who covered the 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.320 Dale Johnson case for years and wrote a book about 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.240 it called Guilty by Popular Demand. So Bill, tell us 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.800 a little bit about yourself and how you started covering 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:18.640 this case. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.000 For nearly forty years. I was a reporter. I worked 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.920 for eleven different newspapers around the country. I worked for 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.840 the Akron Beacon Journal at that time, which is nearly 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.120 two hundred miles away from Logan, Ohio, where the murders 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:38.800 took place. But in those days, the newspapers valued a 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.640 major story and would make that kind of an investment 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:46.640 in time and resources to cover a widely publicized case 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:47.040 like that. 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.280 So, Bill, you actually went to Logan, Ohio to cover 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.320 Dale's trial? What was that like? 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.240 I drove into Logan, which is about thirty five miles 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.840 southeast of Columbus, Ohio. I've ever been there before, and 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.880 I drove in on a January morning, and it was 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.680 one of the coldest things I can remember. The temperatures 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:11.879 were well below zero. And I went to the center 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.600 of the little town and found the courthouse. And here, 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.200 you know, eight o'clock on a weekday morning, there was 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.959 a line outside the courthouse. People were standing in that 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:26.280 below zero cold waiting for a chance to get in 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.879 to hear all this salacious details of this horrific murder 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:37.040 of a teenage couple who were found dismembered, parts of 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.000 their bodies buried in a cornfield near the Hawking River 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:42.480 in Logan, Ohio. 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.760 Wow, this is a really brutal crime. I mean, you 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.360 have body parts buried in fields. And the prosecutors claimed 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:55.320 that Dale Johnson committed these murders and putting aside what 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.280 his motive would have been. How did they claim he 0:17:58.359 --> 0:17:59.320 committed the murders. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.800 The prosecutor alleged in his scenario that Dale Johnston had 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.439 kidnapped these two kids in downtown Logan, made a stop 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.080 on his way home at a doctor's office and drove 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.200 him onto his trailer, where they got into an argument 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:20.920 about a little used car that the parents were supposed 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.160 to have given a net but hadn't yet, And out 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:29.280 of that argument, Dale went into a jealous fit and 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:33.480 pulled out a gun which they never found, and shot 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.400 his stepdaughter and a boyfriend, and then took them outside, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:43.000 apparently and butchered them, and then brought them back to 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.720 downtown Logan where they had last been seen and put 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:53.680 some body parts, heads and limbs in the cornfield. I mean, 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:58.159 it just it made absolutely no sense. They had no 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.240 evidence that he was actually back in town at night 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.880 trying to bury these bodies, but that's what they elect. 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.280 Dale was not a warm guy. I mean, you know, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.359 he was the outsider. He didn't have a high opinion 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.520 of the locals. They didn't like him. You know, he 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.720 was convenient guy for them to hang in on. 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.680 So, Bill, did anyone think that Dale was innocent? I mean, 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:27.280 what was your sense of the atmosphere surrounding the case. 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.879 There was such an atmosphere of the case having been 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.199 already tried in the court of public opinion before the 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.240 trial even started. More than a year passed between the 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:43.160 murderers and the trial, and obviously the only story coming 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.639 out of the investigation was that Dale Johnson did it. 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.600 So that, in fact, was why the defense waived a 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.480 jury trial and asked for a three judge panel, because 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:57.480 they knew that people in Hocking County were so predisposed 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.000 to believe that Dale Johnson was the killer. 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.360 Now, very little evidence was found at the scenes where 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:17.000 these body parts were found, but we know investigators found 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.200 some sort of print in the mud by the riverbank. 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.760 And Dale goes down to the police station with his 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.640 wife Sarah, and he thinks he's going there to help 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.719 them find the killers, but they confiscate his boots, and 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.280 of course those boots would be compared to the impression 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:37.240 found at the scene. So tell us a little bit 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:38.280 more about what happened. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.639 There were so many cops out there that, according to 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:46.800 the testimony of a Ohio Bureau of Investigation agent, they 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.400 totally ruined the crime scene as far as being able 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:55.320 to collect any valid evidence. They were cops stomping all over. Well, 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.400 what happened was the share of Hockeing County had an 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.719 impression made of a depression in the riverbank, and they 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.080 made it casting, and they sent it off to the FBI, 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:13.359 and it was examined by a nationally known footprint expert 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.119 at the FBI, and he was brought in to testify 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.240 to his findings, and he testified that, well, all he 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:26.280 could say that this casting was more likely a footprint 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.400 than any kind of a shoeprint or bootprint. And however, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:35.399 he forwarded this plaster cast at his own volition to 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:43.040 a woman anthropologist, Luis Robbins, for her examination. And she 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:49.040 had a theory of how he could identify footprints from 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:55.159 the ware patterns on the inside of someone's footwear. She 0:21:55.280 --> 0:22:00.719 had this Kakamami theory that by examining the interior of 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:06.000 a footwear she could get wear impressions and use that 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.440 to analyze a casting of a print from a shoe 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:15.679 or a boot. And so she testified and triwed it. Well, 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.800 you can't really say that Dale Johnson's boot fits this, 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.240 but from the wear patterns that she observed from the 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:28.080 interior of the boot, when you looked at it that way, 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:32.640 then yes, this was made by Dale Johnson's boot. And 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:34.560 you know, I had never heard of that before. It 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:38.200 didn't make any sense to me. It was only later, 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:40.800 after the damage was done, that it came out how 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:46.320 irresponsible and unreliable and untrue. Her testimony was. 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.720 So let me hit this straight. This is like, you know, 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.119 kind of mind blowing here. Louise Robbins said that she 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:57.040 could match the depression found by the riverbank to Dale 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:02.000 based on war patterns made by his foot inside his boot. 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.280 I mean, it just sounds ridiculous. I've never even heard 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:08.960 of that before. This seems to go so far outside 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:13.720 the bounds of any verifiable science. And you know, it's 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.119 important for our listeners to keep in mind that with 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:21.800 impression pattern matching methods, that's the type of science we're 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.679 talking about, or alleged science that we're talking about with 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.560 shoe prints and tires. There's a database that experts have 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.639 and they refer to this database when they're matching a 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.920 shoe or a tire to an impression at a scene. 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:39.639 And tires and shoes are mass produced, so the same 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.639 rubber mold is used to make them. But that just 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.600 tells an expert what class that piece of evidence came from. So, 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:51.159 for instance, they can say that this footwear impression was 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.879 made by a size ten Nike Air Jordan. But the 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.920 problem is a lot of people own a size ten 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.040 Nike Air Jordan, so it's not enough to put somebody 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:05.320 at the scene. So impression analysis really comes down to 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:10.239 the individual characteristics in the specific shoe or shoes that 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.720 belong to the accused, and we're talking about things like 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:18.080 cracks in the sole of the shoe, comes stuck to 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.480 the bottom of the heel, you know, characteristics that are 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:25.760 often caused by routine wear and tear. But the problem 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.200 is there is no standard regarding the number of unique 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.760 characteristics that are needed to make a positive identification. And 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:37.480 it sounds like from the mold they were working with 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:41.400 in this case that the FBI analysts couldn't even tell 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:43.760 if the impression was made by a bare foot or 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.359 a shoe, let alone, what kind of a shoe? So 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:50.879 that should tell you something about the quality of the 0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:53.919 impression they were working with. But Ms Robbins makes this 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:58.800 huge leap, and it's really really hard to imagine that 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:02.360 this could have been allowed in a courtroom when someone's 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.040 freedom was on the line. And yet he or she 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.560 is one of the prosecution's key witnesses when it came 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:12.720 to analyzing the physical evidence of the scene. So how 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:18.440 prominently did Miss Robbin's testimony play in the prosecution's closing arguments? 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:22.040 Bill, Well, it was very prominent because it was the 0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:26.080 only piece of evidence that linked Dale Johnson to the 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:30.640 murder scene. I thought it was a very weak link 0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:33.840 to begin with, but apparently it was strong enough for 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:40.920 three judges. His closing line was, murder is the ultimate 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:43.680 form of molestation, so you must be guilty of the 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:47.920 murder too. He had, of course, been alleging without evidence, 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.880 that Dale Johnson had inappropriate relationship with Annette. 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:57.440 So after he's convicted and sentence, what happens next? 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:01.600 Bill? He was sent immediately to death row. But you know, 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:06.879 it was such a weird, hostile atmosphere in that town. 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:10.400 I mean, I will never forget when it came time 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:14.240 for the verdict, all the spectators had gathered on the 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:16.919 lower level of the courthouse but listened to the verdict 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:20.600 by radio, and I will never forget that when the 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:26.480 guilty verdict was announced, there was this eerie cheering that 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.800 came from below, you know, that filled up the courtroom. 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:34.399 And these people wanted somebody to pay, and Dale Johnston 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:38.359 happened to be the guy who they were able to 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:38.840 hang it on. 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:41.919 I mean, it seems Bill that they didn't even have 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:46.679 anything other than a hunch that Dal Johnston did this. 0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:49.600 I mean, I it's hard to make sense of this. 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:51.760 I mean, do you think that they did this on purpose? 0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:55.400 Do you think that they've set out to frame Dale Johnson? 0:26:56.520 --> 0:27:01.280 Well, I don't think anyone wants to accept that the 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:08.760 prosecutors and police would knowingly fabricate an entire case against 0:27:08.800 --> 0:27:12.399