1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hey folks, Kate Judson here, I'm a lawyer and the 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: executive director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: We're back with another episode of Junk Science, a series 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: we first released in twenty twenty. But these stories are 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: just as relevant as ever. In this week's episode, Josh 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: will dive into the story of Dale Johnson and the 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: use of footwear analysis to wrongfully convict an innocent man. 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: It's yet another example of a highly subjective analysis that 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: is presented in court as objective fact. Just like other 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: types of pattern matching evidence, in court, testifying experts may 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: overstate the certainty of the evidence, overstate their conclusions, or 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: exaggerate their reliability. In fact, when looking at hair comparison 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: analyst testimony another type of flawed pattern matching, the FBI 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: and others found that analysts overstated their conclusions more than 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: ninety five percent of the time. There's no reason to 16 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: believe that other types of pattern analysis are any different. 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: So sometimes analysts overstate or exaggerate, and of course sometimes 18 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: they're just playing wrong. Dale Johnson's case is an extreme 19 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: example of this area of flawed analysis, but there are 20 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: plenty more cases where footwear comparisons are used in a 21 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: problematic way, and likely many more exonerations to come. 22 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: It's a clear fall day in America's heartland. You sit 23 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 2: in a chair outside your trailer, contently looking out over 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: your farm. It's cool and the sun is setting behind 25 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: the dense forest that surrounds your property. Everything seems just right. 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: That evening, your stepdaughter in Net stops by with her boyfriend. 27 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: You and your wife were pretty upset when Annette told 28 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: you she was moving away from the farm and moving 29 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: in with her boyfriend, Todd and his parents downtown. You 30 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: don't want a Net to be caught up with someone 31 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: from town. All those townies seem to care about his 32 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 2: church and gossip. You want nothing to do with them, 33 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: and they don't seem to want anything to do with you. 34 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: But in Nette's already eighteen, she's an adult. You can't 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: really control her. You try to act supportive, so you 36 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: nod to Todd and help a Nette pack the last 37 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: of her things into his trunk. You give her a 38 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: hug before she gets into the car with him, and 39 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: you watch as Todd pulls away to drive them back 40 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: into town, and you're feeling a little helpless. The next 41 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: day is pretty routine for you. You pick up loads 42 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: of hay to bring to your barn. It's strenuous work. 43 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: You work hard all day. You're exhausted, and you go 44 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: to bed early. The next morning, the phone rings. It's 45 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: Todd's mother. She says, are net in Todd with you? No, 46 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: you say, I thought they were with you. Tod's mother 47 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: becomes frantic. She says, the kids went for a walk 48 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: around four pm yesterday and they never came home last night. 49 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: But there's something else going on there. There's a hint 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: of something, a tone of accusation in her voice, like 51 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: she's somehow blaming you. You hang up and call the 52 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: police immediately. You wait all day, hoping to hear something, 53 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: but there's nothing. You're just waiting and waiting, and the 54 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: police finally get back to you in the evening. They 55 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: can't find them. One sleepless night bleeds into another, and 56 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: then another and another. This is one terrible nightmare for 57 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: you and your wife. Ten days go on like this. 58 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: All you and your wife can do is it and worry. 59 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: You're not eating, you're not sleeping, you don't know what 60 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: to do with yourselves. It's raining outside when you finally 61 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: get a call from an officer and you can hear 62 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: it in the tone of their voice. This is not 63 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: going to be good. The news I have for you 64 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: is not going to be easy to hear. He says, 65 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: we found Todd in a net in the Hawking River. 66 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: Oh my god, you can't stand. Your body is trembling. 67 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: You try to restate what the officer just said. You're 68 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: trying to wrap your head around what this means. You 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: found their bodies, their dead bodies. The officer says, they 70 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: didn't find their whole bodies, just their torsos. Their bodies 71 00:04:51,680 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: have been dismembered. You're completely sick. Officers spend two days 72 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: searching the cornfields between the railroad tracks and the river 73 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 2: where the torsos were found. They find Todd in the 74 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: net's limbs and heads buried in shallow graves. You and 75 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: your wife drive into town to the police station, and 76 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: you're taken aback by the attitudes of these cops. When 77 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: you're separated from your wife and pulled into an interrogation room, 78 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: officers tell you to take off your boots, your shirt, 79 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: your pants. You sit shivering in your underwear for eight 80 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: and a half hours and then a detective comes in. 81 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: He sits down right next to you, puts his finger 82 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: in your face and says, you did this. We know 83 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: you did this. We found your bootprint down by the riverbank. 84 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: Once we match that boot to the print that was 85 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: left at that riverbank, it'll prove you were there. You 86 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: killed your stepdaughter, and then you sick bastard, you cut 87 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: off for arms, her legs, her head. You better confess, 88 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: because I'll tell you right now it's going to get 89 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: worse for you if you don't. You say, over and 90 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: over and over again, what in the world are you 91 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: talking about. I didn't murder a net I just came 92 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: here to help you find out who did What is 93 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: this all about. They don't have enough evidence to charge 94 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: you for the murder of a net and Todd, so 95 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: they have to let you go. They impound your car 96 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: so it can be searched for evidence. It's dark and 97 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: cold when they drive you home. They let you and 98 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: your wife out of the car and you're still naked 99 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: except for your underwear. You walk barefoot to your trailer. 100 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: Your toes are totally dumb. By the time you get 101 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: to the door. Downtown, rumors start to spread. People are 102 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: saying this murder must have been some kind of cult ritual, 103 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: that it must have been you who did it. The quiet, 104 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: stern stepfather who never says much, never goes to church, 105 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: keeps his family hidden away. Who knows what goes on 106 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: at that farm. They didn't like you before, but now 107 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: they're straight a hostile. They cross the street to get 108 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: away from you when they see you coming. It takes 109 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: them a year to build the case against you. Are 110 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: they even looking at other suspects. The whispering of your 111 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: name around town grows to a fever pitch. You can 112 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: hear their accusations ring in your ears. Murderer, molester. You're 113 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: eventually arrested in charge with the butchering murder of your 114 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: stepdaughter and net and her boyfriend Todd. When you finally 115 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: go to court, you do something very out of the ordinary. 116 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: You waive the right to a jury trial. Finding twelve 117 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: impartial people in Logan, Ohio really not going to happen. 118 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: The newspapers, everyone around town, they all think you're guilty. 119 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: Everyone just wants to feel safe again. They won't be 120 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: satisfied until someone is convicted and they are sure that 121 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: person is you instead of a jury. You put your 122 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: fate in the hands of a three judge panel. A 123 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: jury might not see it, but three judges they have to. 124 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: It's their job to apply the facts to the law 125 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: without any outside influence from the court of public opinion. 126 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: Your lawyer calls to the stand and FBI analyst who 127 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: says the plaster mold of what the prosecution claims is 128 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: your bootprint at the riverbank is quote unquote unsuitable. The 129 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: analyst says it lacks sufficient detail for meaningful comparison, and 130 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: that it looks more like the footprint of someone who 131 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: is walking barefoot. There is no way to claim your 132 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: boots match that print, So you're optimistic. But then the 133 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: prosecution calls an anthropology professor or to the stand. She 134 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: says she studied footwear impressions of countless samples. Her delivery 135 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 2: is slow and deliberate and really credible. She says, quote 136 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: no person's footprints are the same as another. They're as 137 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: unique as a fingerprint. I've analyzed the wear patterns on 138 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: the inside of the defendant's boot, and I can say 139 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: with certainty, scientific certainty, that the footprint found by the 140 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: riverbank was made by the defendant. This sounds unbelievable, but 141 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: you see the judges are nodding along. There's no wather 142 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: buying this is there. After a very short deliberation, the 143 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: judges apparently believe the testimony of the prosecution's anthropologists who 144 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: put you right at the scene of the crime. They 145 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: convict you, and you are sentenced to death. The story 146 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: you just heard is based on the murders of Nette 147 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: Cooper Johnston and Todd Schultz. Dale. Johnston was wrongfully convicted 148 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: and sentenced to death in nineteen eighty four. He was 149 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: exonerated in nineteen ninety, over twenty years after the murder. 150 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: The true killer finally confessed, but even then the people 151 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 2: in the town of Logan still chose to believe that 152 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: Dale was guilty in one way or another. On today's episode, 153 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: we're going to examine how a supposed footprint put an 154 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 2: innocent man on death row. I'm Josh Dubin, civil rights 155 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: and criminal defense attorney and Innocent ambassador to the Innocence 156 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 2: Project in New York. Today, on Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, 157 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 2: we examined footwear comparison evidence, even when done correctly, impression 158 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: analysis of evidence like shoe prints and tire tracks as 159 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: purely subjective. Many experts recognize its limitations, but one so 160 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: called expert in particular push the limits of this forensic 161 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: discipline to produce horrific outcomes. It turns out that Dale 162 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: Johnson wasn't the only innocent person to be convicted of 163 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: a crime based on faulty footwear comparison evidence. 164 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 165 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: of wrongful conviction with Jason Flahm and of the Last 166 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to help 167 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 3: incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The 168 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers 169 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 3: across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people 170 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: and students. For more information on the work of the 171 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot 172 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: org or the Lastmile dot org. 173 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy six, archaeologists made one of the most 174 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 2: exciting discoveries of our time. They found footprints dating back 175 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: three point seven million years immortalized in the volcanic ash 176 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: in Tanzania, and they looked like human prints. Archaeologists were thrilled. 177 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: They thought these footprints could shed some light on when 178 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: human beings began walking upright on two feet. Luis Robbins 179 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: was an anthropology professor at the University of North Carolina 180 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: at Greensboro. She too was excited about these footprints and 181 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: wanted to know exactly who left them behind. Louise had 182 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 2: been conducting her own studies in footprint analysis. She started 183 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: collecting footprints from people who were still alive. Five hundred 184 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 2: people put ink onto their feet and then stood on 185 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: a piece of paper. Based on those prince Louise tried 186 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: to find characteristics and feet that were specific to age, sex, stature, 187 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: and weight, using her own system of measurement. She would 188 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: then compare those characteristics to the footprints found in the caves. 189 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: Her conclusion, no two footprints are the same. In fact, 190 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: she thought she could tell a great deal about a 191 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 2: person just by looking at their footprint. Her methods were 192 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: never tested by her peers, nor were they confirmed by 193 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: other scientists, but Louise she thought she was onto something. 194 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 2: She claimed to do something no one else could identify 195 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: a person solely through their footprint, and so in nineteen 196 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: seventy eight, when a team of scientists went to excavate 197 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: the site in Tanzania where the prehistoric footprints were found. 198 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: Louise went too. When she saw the prince, she claimed 199 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: that one of them was left by a woman that 200 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: was five and a half months pregnant. Now, other scientists 201 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: on the expedition scratched their heads. It was hard enough 202 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: to figure out if the prints that they were looking 203 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: at were even human at all. No one had ever 204 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: claimed to know the gender of the person that made 205 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 2: the print, let alone of that person was carrying a child. 206 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: Then Louise took a dangerous leap. She positioned herself as 207 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: a forensic expert, authoring a book on footprints. She didn't 208 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: write this book with her scientific peers in mind, but 209 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: she wrote it for law enforcement and crime labs. Only 210 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: five pages in this book were dedicated to the analysis 211 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: of actual shoe prints, and yet, based on these five pages, 212 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: Louise claimed that she was an expert in this area 213 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: of forensic science. Lawyers began to hire her as an 214 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: expert witness. They told judges that her work was on 215 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: the cutting edge of forensic science. Critics of her work 216 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: called it Cinderella analysis. After all, she usually he made 217 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: sure that the shoe fit when she matched the suspects 218 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: foot to the shoe Prince found at a crime scene. 219 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: In the more than twenty cases for which she testified, 220 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: twelve people, some of whom who have since been proven 221 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: to be innocent, were sent to prison, including Dale Johnston, 222 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: who was sentenced to death. 223 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 4: Dale Johnson and his wife Sarah at the time, came 224 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 4: down to Logan several days after the bodies had been discovered, 225 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 4: and they came to the Logan police department. They wanted 226 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 4: to be helpful to them, and Dale was immediately taken 227 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 4: up to an interrogation room. His boots, his pants, his 228 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 4: shirt were all confiscated. So he was sitting there in 229 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 4: the chair in his underwear and they were bombarding him. 230 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 4: You did it, didn't you? And we know you did it? 231 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 4: Over and over and over again. He kept saying, no, 232 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 4: I have nothing. I would just I came into town 233 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 4: to try to help. 234 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: Here today is Bill Osinski, a journalist who covered the 235 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 2: Dale Johnson case for years and wrote a book about 236 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: it called Guilty by Popular Demand. So Bill, tell us 237 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: a little bit about yourself and how you started covering 238 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: this case. 239 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 4: For nearly forty years. I was a reporter. I worked 240 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: for eleven different newspapers around the country. I worked for 241 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: the Akron Beacon Journal at that time, which is nearly 242 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 4: two hundred miles away from Logan, Ohio, where the murders 243 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 4: took place. But in those days, the newspapers valued a 244 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 4: major story and would make that kind of an investment 245 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 4: in time and resources to cover a widely publicized case 246 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 4: like that. 247 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: So, Bill, you actually went to Logan, Ohio to cover 248 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: Dale's trial? What was that like? 249 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 4: I drove into Logan, which is about thirty five miles 250 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 4: southeast of Columbus, Ohio. I've ever been there before, and 251 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 4: I drove in on a January morning, and it was 252 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 4: one of the coldest things I can remember. The temperatures 253 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 4: were well below zero. And I went to the center 254 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 4: of the little town and found the courthouse. And here, 255 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 4: you know, eight o'clock on a weekday morning, there was 256 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 4: a line outside the courthouse. People were standing in that 257 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 4: below zero cold waiting for a chance to get in 258 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 4: to hear all this salacious details of this horrific murder 259 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: of a teenage couple who were found dismembered, parts of 260 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 4: their bodies buried in a cornfield near the Hawking River 261 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 4: in Logan, Ohio. 262 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: Wow, this is a really brutal crime. I mean, you 263 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 2: have body parts buried in fields. And the prosecutors claimed 264 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: that Dale Johnson committed these murders and putting aside what 265 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: his motive would have been. How did they claim he 266 00:17:58,359 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: committed the murders. 267 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 4: The prosecutor alleged in his scenario that Dale Johnston had 268 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 4: kidnapped these two kids in downtown Logan, made a stop 269 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 4: on his way home at a doctor's office and drove 270 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 4: him onto his trailer, where they got into an argument 271 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 4: about a little used car that the parents were supposed 272 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 4: to have given a net but hadn't yet, And out 273 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 4: of that argument, Dale went into a jealous fit and 274 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 4: pulled out a gun which they never found, and shot 275 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 4: his stepdaughter and a boyfriend, and then took them outside, 276 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 4: apparently and butchered them, and then brought them back to 277 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 4: downtown Logan where they had last been seen and put 278 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 4: some body parts, heads and limbs in the cornfield. I mean, 279 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 4: it just it made absolutely no sense. They had no 280 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 4: evidence that he was actually back in town at night 281 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 4: trying to bury these bodies, but that's what they elect. 282 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 4: Dale was not a warm guy. I mean, you know, 283 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 4: he was the outsider. He didn't have a high opinion 284 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 4: of the locals. They didn't like him. You know, he 285 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 4: was convenient guy for them to hang in on. 286 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 2: So, Bill, did anyone think that Dale was innocent? I mean, 287 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: what was your sense of the atmosphere surrounding the case. 288 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 4: There was such an atmosphere of the case having been 289 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 4: already tried in the court of public opinion before the 290 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 4: trial even started. More than a year passed between the 291 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 4: murderers and the trial, and obviously the only story coming 292 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 4: out of the investigation was that Dale Johnson did it. 293 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 4: So that, in fact, was why the defense waived a 294 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 4: jury trial and asked for a three judge panel, because 295 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 4: they knew that people in Hocking County were so predisposed 296 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: to believe that Dale Johnson was the killer. 297 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 2: Now, very little evidence was found at the scenes where 298 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: these body parts were found, but we know investigators found 299 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: some sort of print in the mud by the riverbank. 300 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: And Dale goes down to the police station with his 301 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: wife Sarah, and he thinks he's going there to help 302 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 2: them find the killers, but they confiscate his boots, and 303 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: of course those boots would be compared to the impression 304 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: found at the scene. So tell us a little bit 305 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: more about what happened. 306 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 4: There were so many cops out there that, according to 307 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 4: the testimony of a Ohio Bureau of Investigation agent, they 308 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 4: totally ruined the crime scene as far as being able 309 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 4: to collect any valid evidence. They were cops stomping all over. Well, 310 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 4: what happened was the share of Hockeing County had an 311 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 4: impression made of a depression in the riverbank, and they 312 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 4: made it casting, and they sent it off to the FBI, 313 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 4: and it was examined by a nationally known footprint expert 314 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 4: at the FBI, and he was brought in to testify 315 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 4: to his findings, and he testified that, well, all he 316 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 4: could say that this casting was more likely a footprint 317 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 4: than any kind of a shoeprint or bootprint. And however, 318 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 4: he forwarded this plaster cast at his own volition to 319 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 4: a woman anthropologist, Luis Robbins, for her examination. And she 320 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 4: had a theory of how he could identify footprints from 321 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 4: the ware patterns on the inside of someone's footwear. She 322 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 4: had this Kakamami theory that by examining the interior of 323 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 4: a footwear she could get wear impressions and use that 324 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 4: to analyze a casting of a print from a shoe 325 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 4: or a boot. And so she testified and triwed it. Well, 326 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 4: you can't really say that Dale Johnson's boot fits this, 327 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 4: but from the wear patterns that she observed from the 328 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 4: interior of the boot, when you looked at it that way, 329 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 4: then yes, this was made by Dale Johnson's boot. And 330 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: you know, I had never heard of that before. It 331 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 4: didn't make any sense to me. It was only later, 332 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 4: after the damage was done, that it came out how 333 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 4: irresponsible and unreliable and untrue. Her testimony was. 334 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: So let me hit this straight. This is like, you know, 335 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: kind of mind blowing here. Louise Robbins said that she 336 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: could match the depression found by the riverbank to Dale 337 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: based on war patterns made by his foot inside his boot. 338 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it just sounds ridiculous. I've never even heard 339 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: of that before. This seems to go so far outside 340 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: the bounds of any verifiable science. And you know, it's 341 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: important for our listeners to keep in mind that with 342 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: impression pattern matching methods, that's the type of science we're 343 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: talking about, or alleged science that we're talking about with 344 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: shoe prints and tires. There's a database that experts have 345 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: and they refer to this database when they're matching a 346 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: shoe or a tire to an impression at a scene. 347 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: And tires and shoes are mass produced, so the same 348 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: rubber mold is used to make them. But that just 349 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: tells an expert what class that piece of evidence came from. So, 350 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: for instance, they can say that this footwear impression was 351 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: made by a size ten Nike Air Jordan. But the 352 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: problem is a lot of people own a size ten 353 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: Nike Air Jordan, so it's not enough to put somebody 354 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: at the scene. So impression analysis really comes down to 355 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 2: the individual characteristics in the specific shoe or shoes that 356 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: belong to the accused, and we're talking about things like 357 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: cracks in the sole of the shoe, comes stuck to 358 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: the bottom of the heel, you know, characteristics that are 359 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: often caused by routine wear and tear. But the problem 360 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 2: is there is no standard regarding the number of unique 361 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: characteristics that are needed to make a positive identification. And 362 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: it sounds like from the mold they were working with 363 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 2: in this case that the FBI analysts couldn't even tell 364 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: if the impression was made by a bare foot or 365 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: a shoe, let alone, what kind of a shoe? So 366 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: that should tell you something about the quality of the 367 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 2: impression they were working with. But Ms Robbins makes this 368 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: huge leap, and it's really really hard to imagine that 369 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: this could have been allowed in a courtroom when someone's 370 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: freedom was on the line. And yet he or she 371 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: is one of the prosecution's key witnesses when it came 372 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: to analyzing the physical evidence of the scene. So how 373 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: prominently did Miss Robbin's testimony play in the prosecution's closing arguments? 374 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 4: Bill, Well, it was very prominent because it was the 375 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 4: only piece of evidence that linked Dale Johnson to the 376 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 4: murder scene. I thought it was a very weak link 377 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 4: to begin with, but apparently it was strong enough for 378 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 4: three judges. His closing line was, murder is the ultimate 379 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 4: form of molestation, so you must be guilty of the 380 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: murder too. He had, of course, been alleging without evidence, 381 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 4: that Dale Johnson had inappropriate relationship with Annette. 382 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: So after he's convicted and sentence, what happens next? 383 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 4: Bill? He was sent immediately to death row. But you know, 384 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 4: it was such a weird, hostile atmosphere in that town. 385 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 4: I mean, I will never forget when it came time 386 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 4: for the verdict, all the spectators had gathered on the 387 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 4: lower level of the courthouse but listened to the verdict 388 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 4: by radio, and I will never forget that when the 389 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 4: guilty verdict was announced, there was this eerie cheering that 390 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 4: came from below, you know, that filled up the courtroom. 391 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 4: And these people wanted somebody to pay, and Dale Johnston 392 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 4: happened to be the guy who they were able to 393 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 4: hang it on. 394 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 2: I mean, it seems Bill that they didn't even have 395 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 2: anything other than a hunch that Dal Johnston did this. 396 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I it's hard to make sense of this. 397 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that they did this on purpose? 398 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 2: Do you think that they've set out to frame Dale Johnson? 399 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think anyone wants to accept that the 400 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 4: prosecutors and police would knowingly fabricate an entire case against 401 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 4: a murder defendant. And I know I came down to 402 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 4: Logan with no preconceptions. I do remember, you know, having 403 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 4: the belief that you know, the state wouldn't bring these 404 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 4: charges unless they had something against this guy. And by 405 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 4: the end, I said, where is the case I was 406 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 4: shocked at the prosecutor's summary. I mean it, it was 407 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 4: total high opera and total fantasy. Everything that was presented 408 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 4: in that trial was a lie. I believe somewhere before 409 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 4: I die, I'm going to learn the truth in this case, 410 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 4: and it just so happens that I did. 411 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that oftentimes, when one of these 412 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: disciplines of junk science is used in a case and 413 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: the person is convicted, it's not the exposure of that 414 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: junk science as being total bullshit that leads to the exoneration. 415 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: It's often that DNA testing is used to prove that 416 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: they have the wrong person. What's really interesting about this 417 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: case is that Dale is eventually released from prison because 418 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 2: his lawyers were able to prove that some of the 419 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: evidence that was used the convictim was not admissible. And 420 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: oddly enough, it wasn't the shoe evidence that was thrown out, 421 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: but another witness's testimony. It turns out that a witness 422 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 2: had been hypnotized by a detective and was persuaded to 423 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: give this awful testimony against Dale at the trial, and 424 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: testimony that he like forcefully put a net in and 425 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: Todd into a car and that testimony was never supposed 426 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: to be admitted in court, and that was what was 427 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: deemed inadmissible, and Dale was let out because of that. 428 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 2: And of course Louise Robbin's testimony about his you know, 429 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: the inside wear patterns on his boots, you know, being 430 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: definitive proof that the impression left on the riverbank was 431 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: his that was left undisturbed. And everyone still believed he 432 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: was guilty. But then someone else confessed to murdering and 433 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: it and Todd so Bill tell us about that. Who 434 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: actually committed this crime, A. 435 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 4: Sorry little fellow named Chester mcnight was nicknamed Chester the 436 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 4: Molester just because apparently because he was weird and was 437 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 4: an habitual criminal, habitual drunk, even though he had a 438 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 4: history of assaults against women. And Chester actually got married 439 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 4: and it lasted a couple of weeks before she kicked 440 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 4: him out and left. And it was in that atmosphere 441 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 4: where Chester just went over the deep end and was 442 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 4: drinking day in and day out. He was obviously depressed, 443 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 4: the wife had left him, and he was just drinking incessantly. 444 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 4: He came on that afternoon, early evening of October fourth, 445 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 4: to Kenny Lynn Scott's house, a local drug dealer, you know, 446 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 4: they were drinking buddies. Anyway, there was a kind of 447 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 4: a makeshift party in Kenny's yard and Chester joined in, 448 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 4: and here comes Todd and Annette. So they joined the 449 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 4: party for a little while. I think they may have 450 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 4: had a beer and Chester decided to hey, let's keep 451 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 4: the party going. I've got some I've got some stuff. 452 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 4: And so they start walking down the railroad tracks and 453 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 4: according to Chester's account, he wanted to have a group 454 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 4: sex with Annette, and she of course know and Todd 455 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 4: tried to get her out of the situation, and that's 456 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 4: when Chester pulled a gun and shot him, and that 457 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 4: started screaming. She shot her. At that point, Chester and 458 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: Kenny dragged the bodies down to the riverfront at the 459 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 4: edge of the cornfield and dismembered them. And Kenny, maybe 460 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 4: with help maybe not, got the bodies back into the 461 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 4: cornfield and dug shallow holes and put the limbs and 462 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: the heads into a kind of a bare spot in 463 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 4: the middle of the cornfield that he knew about. And 464 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 4: Kenny the next few nights he would go out to 465 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 4: that railroad bridge and cry and moan and friends saying, 466 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 4: what's wrong Kenny and he told them, Yo, you wouldn't understand. 467 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 4: His neighbors knew what he was doing. His neighbors saw 468 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 4: his behavior. His neighbors told the police that they should 469 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 4: be investigating him, but they never did, and they did 470 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 4: have a record then of this strange call made the 471 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 4: night before the body parts were found. Kenny Linscott made 472 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 4: the call and said, have you found the bodies yet? 473 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 4: And nobody at that point knew that the kids were 474 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 4: even dead or that there were bodies to be found, 475 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 4: And that call was logged and it became the thing 476 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 4: that led to Kenny and ultimately to Chester. And so 477 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 4: I have a law enforcement source that helped me with this, 478 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 4: and he told me that, you know, everybody knew Kenny 479 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 4: was acting weird after the killings. And he said, well, 480 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 4: let's go talk to Kenny. And the sheriff says, oh, no, 481 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 4: we confined him, when then we need him. So at 482 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 4: the very beginning, Lin Scott's name came up, but yet 483 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 4: the police just dismissed him right out of hand. 484 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: In reflecting on all this, I just want to go 485 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: back to Luiz Robin's testimony about the shoeprint for a moment. 486 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: I understand why jurors would be persuaded by her. She's 487 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: got this anthropology degree, she's a professor. She comes across 488 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: short convincingly. She went and studied these ancient footprints in Tanzania. 489 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: That all makes sense. But the three judges hearing this, 490 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: you know, the inside wear patterns on the boot and 491 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: that being definitive proof that it was Dale Johnson's bootprint. 492 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: I mean, what did they make of her testimony? 493 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 4: I can tell you how strongly her testimony was accepted. 494 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 4: Twenty five years later, you know, when the real truth 495 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 4: came out. I interviewed two of the three judges on 496 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 4: the case and they both said, well, we had doctor 497 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 4: Robin's testimony before us, and that was very convincing. This 498 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 4: was even after they learned the truth, after they learned 499 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 4: that everything this woman said was a lie, they still 500 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 4: wanted to believe in her. I have summed up this 501 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 4: case as a total collapse of a local justice system, 502 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 4: and I still believe that it left me with such 503 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 4: a sense of outrage that this kind of thing can 504 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 4: be done in our system of justice toom and I mean, 505 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 4: you know it was it was not even close. But 506 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 4: the lies that were told in that courtroom were enough 507 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 4: to send an into some man to death row sitting 508 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 4: there through the entire trial. Is they never they never 509 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 4: presented a rational case, and the evidence that they did 510 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 4: present was you know, challenged very successfully by the defense. 511 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 4: I mean, what I learned is that someone with an 512 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 4: academic position and the claim of scientific expertise is automatically 513 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 4: granted some level of believability, even by judges and prosecutors 514 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 4: and investigators. And they really accepted Louise robins testimony and 515 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 4: as fact I called it in my book fantasy Forensics, 516 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 4: and as events have proven, it was totally fabricated. I 517 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 4: can only attribute it to the desire to get a conviction, 518 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 4: any conviction. That people in that town were petrified. The 519 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 4: judges knew it, They knew what would happen if they 520 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 4: didn't get a conviction, and they knew that they wouldn't 521 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 4: have another crack at Dale Johnson if they acquitted him. 522 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,959 Speaker 4: So they convicted him and just went back home. 523 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: The use of doctor Robins as a forensic expert is 524 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: an example of what can go horribly wrong when courts 525 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 2: allow unverified signs into our courtrooms. She testified in twenty 526 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: cases truly a hired gun by attorneys looking for a 527 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: particular outcome. Her work was reviewed by a panel of 528 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty five anthropologists, forensic scientists, lawyers, and 529 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: legal scholars sponsored by the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, 530 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: and they concluded that her methodology for identification had no 531 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: basis in science, but the damage had already been done. 532 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 2: Dale Johnson spent four years on death row for a 533 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 2: double homicide that he didn't commit. But he was fortunate 534 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 2: and that even though his trial left him impoverished, his 535 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: attorneys stayed on his case pro bono and took on 536 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: the appeals. The psychological trauma inflicted on those who were 537 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted, especially for people who are innocent and sit 538 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: on death row, is well documented. It isn't just the 539 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 2: conviction that stays with the wrongfully convicted, it's the aftermath. 540 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: Dale lost it all. He lost his stepdaughter, his property, 541 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 2: his wife divorced him. It wasn't until well into his 542 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: eighties earlier this year that Dale finally received some compensation 543 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 2: for his time spent in prison. The Innocence Project provides 544 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: support for therapy and social services for its clients who 545 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: are forced to cope with the harms associated with their 546 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction. You can donate to the Innocence Project by 547 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 2: visiting www. Dot Innocenceproject dot org, slash give. Next week, 548 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 2: we'll explore the junk science of fingerprint evidence. Wrongful Conviction 549 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 2: Junk Science is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 550 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 2: in association with Signal Company Number One. Thanks to our 551 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 2: executive producer Jason Flam and the team at Signal Company 552 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,959 Speaker 2: Number One executive producer Kevin Wardis and senior producers Karen 553 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 2: Kornhaber and Britz Spangler. Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. 554 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: You can follow me on Instagram at dubin Josh. Follow 555 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 2: the Wrongful Conviction podcast on Facebook and on Instagram at 556 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 2: wrongful Conviction and on Twitter at wrong Conviction