1 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: What happens to the court of public opinion when Hollywood 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: alters a true crime story. Y'all, we got a flat 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: stick of dynamite with us tonight. You know her, you 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: love her, Aphroditie Jones, Welcome to Zone seven. 5 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: Thank you, Cheryl. I'm always thrilled to be on Zone seven. 6 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 2: You're one of the best podcasts in true crimes. Where 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: as I'm concerned. 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: Oh, I appreciate that. But you know what is because 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: the people like you sitting here. I mean, that's what 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: it is. 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: Double love going on here. 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: But you know, I don't think there's a better topic 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: than right now. 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: We have seen. 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Just I don't even know what to call it, just 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: a title wave of ugliness and bias and people that 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: want to hide behind a keyboard and you know, act 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: like they're going to try to call somebody out on something. 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: I think it is so important to have you with 20 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: us today because not only have you been involved with 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: some of these cases and highlighted them on your own 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: show on ID, but you've written books, You've interviewed principal people. 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: So I want you to jump in and just kind 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: of talk about the way you go about looking at 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: a documentary versus a fictionalized scripted show. 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: So I'm going to first talk about the Menenda's case, 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: because that's on the top of everybody's mind at the moment, 28 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: and people constantly asking me, what do you think? What 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: do you think today where they abuse? Do you believe it? 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering to myself, you have a question about 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: this in your mind? And you know, I watched the 32 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: dramatic series, and honestly, they do such a disservice to 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: these two young men. They are killers, they are convicted killers. 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: There's no question they killed their parents, all right. But 35 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: the question is and was back in time did these 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: two young men do it for the money? And we 37 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: had to put ourselves back in time to understand that 38 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine when this happened, people were not 39 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: talking about children who were being molested by their parents. 40 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't a topic. It was tabru And 41 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: so the idea that these two young men, especially because 42 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: they went out and spent a bunch of money, that 43 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 2: you know, that they did this for any other reason 44 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: than greed, wasn't even vammable to the general public. It 45 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 2: was like no, no, no, no, this is like the 46 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: Billionaires Boys Club, which was a case that came up 47 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: prior to this one of w Hills with the Menanda's brothers. 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: In fact, the docudrama actually shows the Menanda's brothers the 49 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: actors watching Billionaires Boys Club like they're getting the idea 50 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 2: from that. So we start off with that realizing that 51 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 2: you know, wait a minute, that's not even true. These 52 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: chids didn't see the Billionaires Boys Club. It was a 53 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: movie on TV. It wasn't a movie you can go 54 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: to Win theaters. And it happens they were in a 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: tennis camp at the time. They have all the west, 56 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: so that not that it matters. It's just one of 57 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: those misnomers, the red airing that's thrown out there, that 58 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: starts you off as an audience already thinking they're plotting 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: and planning this for the money. 60 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: I always tell people the truth is enough. You don't 61 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: have to make it worse. You don't have to add 62 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: oh agreed to it. If you have the abuse and 63 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: the way they chose to deal with it, that is 64 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: a heartbreak right there. That is a tragedy for that 65 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: family in that community. But what I remember when this 66 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: thing first broke is exactly what you're saying they framed 67 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: it as these greedy, spoiled Beverly Hills kids that decided, hey, 68 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: we got plenty of you know, allowance, but if we 69 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: kill them, we have it all right. 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of money there too. It wasn't 71 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: like a small amount. 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: You know. 73 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: Jose In Menandez was a powerful man. He once ran 74 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: RCA Records, then he was out in la with entertainment 75 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: lives as he ran, and you know, at the time, 76 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 2: because he was such a big shock, they lived in 77 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 2: a mansion in Beverly Hills. He got away with whatever 78 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: he wanted to get away with, and he was very stripped, 79 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: very hard on his kids and on his wife. From 80 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: what we can understand, this is a man who it's 81 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: all about him and nobody else matters. And who really 82 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: doesn't matter are his two sons that he's molesting separately 83 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: and telling them if you you know, this is our secret, 84 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: and that he's doing it from the ages of four 85 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: or five, six by five and six or eight years old, 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: horrifying stuft. The kids would think, no one will believe me. Now. 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: One of the Menanda's brothers did go to Kiddy Menanda's 88 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: his mom and say, Dad's touching me, and she just said, no, 89 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: that's not You're wrong, It didn't happen. So turning the 90 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: blind eye also is a form of abuse when it 91 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: comes to something like this, don't you think. 92 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: Oh, of course, I mean, because again, where are they 93 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: supposed to turn if Mom's not doing anything? And now 94 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: I go to grandma? Am I supposed to go to 95 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: a teacher? Am I supposed to go to a neighbor? 96 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: In other words, you're going to trust the people in 97 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: your house more than you would the outside world. So 98 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: the people on the inside have already told you, yeah, 99 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: this is our secret, we're not doing it. And then 100 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: whatever you think happened is even happening, right and so. 101 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: And the other thing too is if you know even now, 102 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: obviously the idea that a child's being molested and that's 103 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: child would go to authorities beyond their parents and talk 104 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: about it, even that it's out reopen now and not, 105 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: you know, it's something that we do to deal with 106 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: in public. A kid is not going to do that. 107 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: But can you imagine because at the time that they 108 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: communities mirrors, they were eighteen and twenty one years old. 109 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: So many people have asked me, why didn't they just leave? 110 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: Why didn't they just you know, drive away? Why didn't 111 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: they go to the police. So what are you telling me, 112 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: you as an eighteen or twenty one year old, they're 113 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: going to go to the police and say, my father, 114 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: you know, the big executives who runs a multi million 115 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: dollar corporation, is molesting me. You have no proof, you 116 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: have nothing. I mean, it's just it's incredible to me 117 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 2: that people watch a series and then jumped to reasoning 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: and theories about what could ever should have happened and 119 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: want to argue about it. 120 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: And the reality is grown women don't leave abusive situations. 121 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: Exactly, and children certainly don't because children are they're groomed. 122 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: I mean, these two young men were groomed to be 123 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: the sexual toys of their father. And now we know 124 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: in the Aftermask that someone from the group Menudo came 125 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: forward in a teacop documentary last year and said that 126 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: he was sexually molested by sa Menendez, which of course 127 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: makes perfect sense because why is he dealing with boys bands? 128 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: It's all part of it. So you know, that's a 129 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: new piece of evidence here. The other new piece of 130 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: evidence is that Eric Menendez wrote a letter to his 131 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: cousin when he was you know, fifteen, saying alluding to 132 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: the continued abuse by his father. Without spelling it out, 133 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: you can see between the lines very clearly what that 134 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: letter said. And those are two new pieces of evidence 135 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: that are going to allow potentially for a new resentencing. 136 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: And so we're at that place. But in the meantime, 137 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: I still want to talk about with the documentary. Not 138 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: the documentary, let me get that clear. The dramatization does, 139 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: because Cheryl, here's the weird thing. People are watching dramatizations 140 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: of a story and believing that is the truth. 141 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: Correct. 142 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: It's amazing to me, for example, with the Menandez case 143 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: in particular. So Netflix has this docu drama called Monsters. 144 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: You know, the Lyle and Eric Menandez story. Okay, that's 145 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: got actors. There are many things that are absolutely false 146 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: in it, and I want to talk about those elements 147 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: with you. But then also on Netflix is the documentary 148 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: about the Menindez brothers. No one's bothering to look for it. 149 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: Look for it, guys, because watching that documentary it makes 150 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: my skin turn into goosebumps because there you see each 151 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 2: Menendez brother testifying on the stand about what happened to them, 152 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: and the pain and the struggle to say any of 153 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: it on the stand is so palpable. I still have 154 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: looppuns just thinking about it. Also, in that documentary, you 155 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 2: have Lyle and Eric talking from prison. You don't see 156 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: their faces, but their voices that are qualifying and saying, 157 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 2: look at this, look at that. Here the police are 158 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: trying to, you know, get us, and they don't even 159 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: realize we would have told them everything. We told them. 160 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: When we walked in the room, we smelled smoke. How 161 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: would you smell smoke if you weren't there minute? You know, 162 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: while the murder was happening, there were so many little 163 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: things saw a little thing. It's a big thing, but 164 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: that were you know, never presented and ignored. And then 165 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: you have versus this gemerization of it where everything is 166 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: just like twisted around. And for example, Lyle Menendez, it's 167 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: a character assassination on that guy because he's presented as 168 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 2: this monster rat running around running over people, just disregarding people, 169 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: disrespecting people, thinking who he is. There's no evidence that 170 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 2: that ever was the personality of this man. Man is 171 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 2: this young man. 172 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: You know here's the thing that is leaping out at me. 173 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: Several years ago, probably twenty now, I went and visited 174 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: the von Trapp family inn. You know, the Von Trapps 175 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: from Sound to Music. 176 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's amazing. 177 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: Several of the you know, brothers and sisters and their children, 178 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: you know, they were there and they told the story 179 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: that most people don't know, and that is that the 180 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: oldest sibling was a boy. So when the movie came out, 181 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: he was like, seriously, like, all you know, you made 182 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: me a girl. That wasn't necessary. The story is so 183 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: phenomenal of what this family did, right, But it's things 184 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: like that that you never think about. I never once thought, hey, 185 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: what are the children's genders? Like, what were their ages? 186 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: Never thought about it until they tell that story. So 187 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: now when you think of what they're doing, let's just 188 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: take the title monsters. 189 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: Well, obviously we all thought they were monsters that of course, 190 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: and I don't have this issue with the title. Before 191 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: I go on to that, Cheryl your man, you think 192 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: of something that's really closer to my heart and life, 193 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 2: and that is I wrote the book All She Wanted. 194 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: I liter entitled it All He Wanted. It's the first 195 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: transgender murder in America that was ever in any kind 196 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: of high profile out all. It happened in the early nineties, 197 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: before the word transgender was a word. Maybe one day 198 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: we can go through that story. Because I wrote book 199 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: that story became the movie Boys Don't Cry, and launched 200 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: the career of Hillary Swank. Okay. She got an Academy 201 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: Award for Best Actress because she was able to pull 202 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: off being a he. It was completely believable in that movie. 203 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: When I saw the film, I thought, if she doesn't 204 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: get the Oscar for this, I don't believe in oscars anymore. However, 205 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: that movie, back in time, it was still unknown what 206 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: a transgendered person was. And I say transgendered because that 207 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: was the scientific word for it in the medical books. 208 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: And so since the filmmaker wasn't sure what happened there 209 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: was that the girlfriend of Brandon Tina, who was murdered, 210 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: was presented as being j okay in other words, knowing 211 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: that this was a girl master ratings so called as 212 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 2: the void, and she got up out of the screening 213 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: room for that, you know, that film in tears and 214 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,479 Speaker 2: was never heard from again because she was so maligned 215 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: in what was presenting there, and the irony of it 216 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: all is the movie didn't even get it. The movie 217 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: didn't get that this person was truly trapped in the 218 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: wrong body. It seems like the movie almost wanted to 219 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: present Tina Brandon Brandon Tina as somebody who was confused 220 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: about their sexuality and maybe was gay. So it's just 221 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: I mean, even in a story like that, I really 222 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: feel it needs to be re examined because that happened 223 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 2: almost thirty years over thirty years ago it was and 224 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: we had, like I said, the word transgender wasn't even 225 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: even there. I really would like to talk about that 226 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: more at length with you. But the other thing, Cheryl, 227 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: that when you talk about the von Trapps is that 228 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: there were two other people murdered with Tina Brandon. They 229 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: later became known as Brandon Tina in that farmhouse in Humboldt, Nebraska. 230 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: One was a young woman, Lisa Lambert, whose baby child 231 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: was there toddler in the crib, left alive, okay, and 232 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: heard it all. And the other was a young man 233 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: who was such an incredible person. He had one leg 234 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: and he was able to walk up mountains with this 235 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: prosthetic leg. I mean, the fact that these two other 236 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: people were completely left out of the film voiced all pride. 237 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: This was a triple homicide that I covered. This was 238 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: three people who were murdered. 239 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: And that's what I'm saying. People are pigging and choosing 240 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: that they leave out incredible parts of the story to 241 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: me and alter it completely. 242 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: I mean, Philip Divine, just let me say this. Philip 243 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: Devine's family was so outraged because they used all the 244 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: real names. Okay, so you have Philip Levine was murdered 245 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: in that same house at the same time. Okay, and 246 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: so is Lisa re Imbert. And those two families are 247 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: just ignored completely, and they ran pieces on the fact 248 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: that the movie is, you know, not being truthful to 249 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: what really happened here. You know that's back in time 250 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: and now it's gotten worse. 251 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: Here's the reason I have an issue with the title. 252 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that already had their mind 253 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: made up about the Menindaz brothers. 254 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: I was one of them. 255 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: I was not at all gracious in the beginning with them. 256 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: And here it was my issue once they shot their 257 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: father and their mother and they left and they realized, hey, 258 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: Mom's not dead. When they went back and put that 259 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: gun so close to her cheek and shot her again. 260 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: That to me was a change. That to me, that 261 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: was not something done to stop abuse. That to me 262 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: was straight up murder. So when you have a title, 263 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: and let me just say, y'all, everybody grows, hopefully, everybody changes, 264 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: everybody gets broader understanding. We should all strive to be better. 265 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: But when you have a title called monster, there's people 266 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: that are not even going to click on it. They're 267 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: going to go yep they are and move right on. 268 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: So to me, you're given again this half truth that 269 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: may end up hurting. Absolutely it's unfair, but it could 270 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: hurt the court of public opinion again. 271 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: Right right, No, absolutely, I hear what you're saying, and 272 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: I get that I'm thinking out from more of a 273 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: Hollywood perspective, or you know, someone who's a producer thinking, 274 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: you want a title that's going to grab people, and 275 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: you want to play with that and show why they're 276 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: not monsters. Right, perhaps that's not the right titles to 277 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: go with, but I can kind of underst down why 278 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: they chose that. But you're right, it starts off with 279 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 2: their monsters. That's it. What else I'm going to think about. 280 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: That's a period, they're done, that's the title, that's what 281 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: and who they are. And a lot of people are 282 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: not going to watch it because they think they already know, 283 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: and you know, some of the things the way it 284 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: came out in court, then you started to say, wait 285 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: a minute, this is really awful. And the way they're 286 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: so supportive of each other. It wasn't like they were 287 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: bonded because they had done a crime and were trying 288 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: to hide it. They were bonded because of this abuse. 289 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,239 Speaker 1: And I think over time it became so obvious, and 290 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: I think at the time their attorney did such a 291 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: remarkable job. 292 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 2: I also interviewed the detective less Zeller, and less Zeller, 293 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: you know, was convinced that these boys weren't abused, and 294 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 2: when my show aired, this is this is not we 295 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 2: have to repeat it. But when my show aired, this 296 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: man Zella was furious. I thought he'd be happy with 297 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: the show because I then interviewed William Zachary, the boys 298 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 2: psychiatrists who testified in the first trial, and you could 299 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: see my face when Vickory is talking to me, I'm 300 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: horrified because the man is struggling to tell me what 301 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: he ert from these young men, and so you know 302 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 2: clearly the Beverly Hills police weren't happy with that. They 303 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 2: didn't want that presented. Back when my show aired first 304 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: season in twenty ten, Aphrodity, I think. 305 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: It would be really important for our listeners if you 306 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: could read the letter that Eric wrote to his cousin 307 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: when he was just seventeen. 308 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: Okay, here's the letter. I'm going to highlight the most 309 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: important elements of it. Hello, Andy, how are you doing? 310 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: I hope better than I am. It's been a long 311 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: time since we've been in touch. Too long. I wish 312 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: we could have seen each other during Thanksgiving. We almost did. 313 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: We were all set to go and then my parents 314 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: decided at the left minute. Mom said the flights are 315 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: too expensive. Why is this important? Because the Menendez brothers 316 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 2: are being held captive in that house by their mother 317 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: and father. They're not allowed to go to their family, 318 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: visit family members with Thanksgiving, the Christmas that they have planned. 319 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 2: Also in this letter is mentioned they that was canceled. 320 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: They're not allowed to see family members. They are prisoners 321 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 2: of that house, and Katie Menendez is part of it. 322 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 2: And that's important because people say, well, why was she 323 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 2: killed O. Was she just an extra thing? That's okay? No, 324 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 2: she wasn't a throwaway. She enabled her husband to molest 325 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 2: those young men, her boys. He talks about the Christmas 326 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: spirit in the letter and talks about how you know 327 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: things change, you know, back in the day, talking about 328 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: putting up Christmas stockings and but ven he says, Mom 329 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: isn't doing too good. It's like she's here physically, but 330 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: mentally she's just like gone, if you know what I mean. 331 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 2: I feel bad for her. I don't know why she 332 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 2: puts up with Dad's shit. At times, I wish I 333 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: could talk to her about things, you know, someday, especially 334 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: Dad and I. But the way she worships him and 335 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 2: tells him everything, I'm so afraid she'll tell him whatever 336 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 2: I say, I just can't risk it. Now, think about 337 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: this for a moment. Right when people want to ask 338 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: about why was Kiddy Minando's killed? What was her role 339 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 2: in all this? What do you What was your response 340 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: to this element in the letter? 341 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing that stuck out for me was 342 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: the reason they weren't doing things was because of money. Well, 343 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: we know that ain't the case. They had plenty of money, 344 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: especially when it came to see family over Thanksgiving or Christmas. 345 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: And then the next thing that kind of resonates. He 346 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: says he feels bad for her. Yeah, that is critical 347 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: to me because he is saying I feel bad for her, 348 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: not I hate her, not I resent her. He knows 349 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: how pitiful her situation is because he's in one similar 350 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: The difference is she knew the abuse was going on, 351 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: she had to and she allowed it. 352 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: She allowed it, she wouldn't listen, and she was also 353 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: not a battered woman. But you know in that back seat, 354 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: you know, she was just, you know, the supportive woman 355 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: in the background to this this hugely successful, larger than 356 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: life person. Jose menandez or monster talk about he's the monster. 357 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 2: Let's admit that, clear, right. So the letter goes on 358 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: and he says, I just don't know why she wants 359 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: to hurt him like that. Lyle. Lyle wanted to stay, 360 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: but Dad wouldn't let him. I'm stuck here alone. I've 361 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: been trying to avoid Dad. It's still happening Andy, but 362 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: it's worse for me now. I can't explain it. He's 363 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 2: so overweight that I can't stand to see him. I 364 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: never know when it's going to happen, and it's driving 365 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: me crazy. Think about that, Cheryl. What he is saying here, 366 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: and it's implicit, but for sure he's talking about abuse. 367 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: He doesn't say it come out, but that's what he's 368 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: talking about. 369 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: Oh, he's very clearly talking about abuse and sexual abuse. 370 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: The way he describes his dad's physique, he said, I 371 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: can't even stand to look at him, which means he's 372 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: right in front of you. You don't have it, joways, 373 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: but to look at him exactly. 374 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 2: So he goes on every night. I stay up thinking 375 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 2: he might come in. I need to put it out 376 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: of my mind. I know what you said, but I'm 377 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: afraid you just don't know Dad like I do. He's 378 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: crazy exclamation point. He's warned me a hundred times about 379 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: telling on you, especially when I am a serious whimp. 380 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: I don't know how I'll work through it. I don't 381 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: know how I can handle it. Andy, I need to 382 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: stop hurting about it. It's a cry for help. 383 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: It's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. 384 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: Oh, I tell you, it really makes it merely makes 385 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: you know the issue of why there is now a 386 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: call by the LEDA who's since been now thrown out 387 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: of office or will be. I'm not been reelected, but 388 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: wh guests on in LA decided that this case should 389 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 2: be brought back for a resentence in hearing based on 390 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: this letter as one of the things in evidence that 391 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 2: never was found. Bob rand, who was the journalist who 392 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: covered this case and later wrote a book that came 393 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: out in twenty eighteen about this case, is a friend 394 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: of mine, and I was at his place looking at 395 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: the files Chryl of the Menndez brothers case. I have files. 396 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 2: I've had cases that have as many twenty thousand pages 397 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: in a case. This must have been two hundred thousand 398 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: pages of stuff. I never saw so many boxes in 399 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: my life. I'm not sure I'm exaggerating at the two 400 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: hundred thousand, but there were so many boxes that took 401 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: this man twenty years to write the book because it 402 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: was so daunting, and somehow or another, over time he 403 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 2: recently found amongst all that stuff this one letter that 404 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: I've just been reading to you. 405 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: Wow, And you know we're talking about the half truths. 406 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: We're talking about taking a situation that is horrible and 407 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: sad and gut ridging and for some reason making it worse, 408 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: which again I do not understand, but part of what happened. 409 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: They also made a claim about incest. What does that 410 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: do to the two of them? 411 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: That is the most hurtful thing about all this. In 412 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: terms of the Netflix drama, they present two scenes, and 413 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 2: more than two scenes really, if you watch the whole thing, 414 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: there's this over this, this tone, this undertone of incest 415 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: between the brothers, and they're in particular is one scene 416 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: early on where they chease on the lips. Later, there's 417 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: a shower scene, which is an imaginary scene, it's like 418 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: a dream sequence, which is really just so disgusting that 419 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: the filmmakers would do this, and in it they have 420 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: Lyle and Eric soaping each other up in the shower. 421 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: So there's this absolute, you know, a attempt to make 422 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 2: these two young men who were victims of sexual abuse, 423 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 2: why their dad homosexuals. It's it, you know, I it's 424 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: it's turning the knife and twisting the knife into the 425 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: back of victims. And one thing I need to say 426 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 2: as well, there's a moment where, you know, Eric goes 427 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: to jail and he's you know, they're waiting for trial 428 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: and there's a young man there who's African American who 429 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: she keeps looking at. And the guy they were looking 430 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: at each other, looking, and they finally went up in 431 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: the shower and together and they're looking at each other 432 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: and the guy says, it's okay, you know if what 433 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: you're into, and and you know, Eric says, no, I'm 434 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: not gay, I'm not gay. It is you know, I 435 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: know who I am. You can you can say what 436 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: you want, you know. In other words, it's very much 437 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: making this kid look like he's gay. 438 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: And again, to what end, what is their endgame. It's 439 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: not to tell the story correctly. It's not to put 440 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: the case out there. It's not to advocate for one 441 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: side or the other. It's not like they're advocating for 442 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: the parents. It's not like they're advocating. 443 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 2: For them the convicted. 444 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: It just seems like they're doing this on purpose. And 445 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: this is the only time we've seen it. We saw 446 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: it with the Staircase with al. 447 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the Staircase. 448 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 2: Two things, it's the documentary based on the Michael Peterson case. 449 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 3: And then there was a Max HBO Max series based 450 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,959 Speaker 3: on the documentary, also called the Staircase starring Colin Furst 451 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 3: who played Michael Peterson. 452 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: And I have to say one thing. Colin Furst was 453 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 2: amazing in the film or the documentaries. He really was 454 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 2: a great actor. He captured Michael Peterson beyond beyond compare. 455 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: In both the documentary and then the dramatization based on 456 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: the documentary, there is an absolute attempt to make Michael 457 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 2: Peterson appear innocent, and it is so blatant because in 458 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 2: the documentary and in the Max series of The Staircase, 459 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: Michael Peterson has his daughters around him, crying for him, 460 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 2: hoping he'll be okay, knowing that he didn't do this. 461 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 2: And when you see family members around the dad, all 462 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: rallying around their dad, you think, wow, you know they 463 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: would have realized if something really bad happened. There's one 464 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: problem here that is Caitlin at Parter, Kathleen Peterson's daughter, 465 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: biological daughter, is never presented in either of those that 466 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: neither the documentary nor the Max docu drama. Why because 467 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: she learned the truth, because she went down to the 468 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: DA's office and saw the photos and realized this was 469 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: not an accidental fall down on the stairs, This was murder. 470 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: Left her out, so she falls down the stairs twice. Yeah, 471 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: she's got defensive wounds on her hands. There's blood spatter 472 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: on the inside of his shoulds. Her thyroid is crushed. 473 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: I mean that indicates strangulation. And then tell everybody about 474 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: these rabbit tracks. What is that about. 475 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: So Michael Peterson didn't make that nine on one call 476 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: until way after this crime was committed. And they know 477 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 2: it because of something called red neurons which appeared in 478 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: Kathleen Peterson's brain and that only happens after this loss 479 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: of oxygen for up to one to two hours. That's 480 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: been verified. Meaning he let her bleed out on that stairwell, 481 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: let's start there. He let her bleed out the most 482 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: horrifying death, just bleeding to death. Okay. Now, while she 483 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: was bleeding out, he was busy going back and forth 484 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: from the staircase to the mug room cleaning up the scene. 485 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: And he did a very good job cleaning up because 486 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: you know when he did call nine on one a 487 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 2: few hours later, they came in and there was really 488 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: nothing to be found, they thought, he thought. However, CSI 489 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: got there and used luminol, and those who know CSI 490 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: and you do I know. Luminol is a fluid that 491 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: you put on It lights up a blue light on 492 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: what would be microscopic blood spatter. So wherever they might 493 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: be any blood at all, it's going to show up 494 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: by utilizing luminol. That happened the homicide detective Bart Hollin 495 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: is seeing that there are bloody footprints. Peterson had no 496 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: shoes on when they got there, when the police got there, 497 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: bloody footprints going back and forth between Tathleen's body and 498 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 2: the mudroom, Kathleen's body in the order, So he thought 499 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: he'd cleaned it all up. But no, there's proof, and 500 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: the jury heard this proof of that, also proof in 501 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: court that there was a droplet of blood on the 502 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: walkway leading up to the Pierson mansion. Now why is 503 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: that important? We never found the alder weapon. It's thought 504 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: that it was a blowpoke, which is a fireplace tool 505 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: where you blow into it so it knights the fire. 506 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 2: That one droplet dropped off of something like a fireplace tool, didn't. 507 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: You How did it get outside anyway? 508 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 2: Exactly? How do you have that droplet of blood away 509 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: from the house on that walkway? How did that get there? 510 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: Now you also have smears inside the door of the 511 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: front door. They're a faint smear of blood as well, 512 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: So somebody had their hand on that door, pushing it open, 513 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: and I guess it didn't all get cleaned off. And 514 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: finally in the backyard where he says he was having 515 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: his gard looking at the stars and Kathleen went up 516 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: after the lovely night together because she had work to 517 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: do in the morning. Yeah, Well, the cocaine, the diet 518 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: cocaine he was drinking back there has a bloody fingerprint 519 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: on it. They couldn't it was a partial print. So 520 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 2: all of these elements, the neurons, the blood, the blood evidence, 521 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: none of it's in the documentary. None of it's in 522 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: the geomanization none. 523 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that makes no sense. These facts matter. I mean, 524 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: you can't draw a reasonable conclusion without all of the information. 525 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: And that's the thing. What's really so disingenuous about these 526 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: documentaries and docudramas is that the purport to be telling 527 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: you the whole story. The purport to want to let 528 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: you decide whether this person is guilty or not, let 529 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: you decide whether the Menindez brothers were molested or not, 530 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: let you decide the viewer. Well, how are you supposed 531 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: to decide when they're giving you a slanted story that 532 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: seems like the whole story, that's the key here. They 533 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: may it's insidious because these filmmakers make it seem like 534 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: they reveal that there was somebody else who fell down 535 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: the stairs in Michael Peterson's life in Germany, you know, 536 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: sixteen years prior to Kathleen Peterson's death, and oh my god, 537 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: you know, why did you tell us about this? But 538 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: then they explained it away. It's never brought up that 539 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: that second murder, Elizabeth Ratliffe, was determined as a homicide 540 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: by the North Carolina Medical Examiner to testify in coort 541 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: I watch your testimony and that it is we see 542 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: it there that you know, the idea that she's going 543 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: to be exhumed and in the documentary and the daughters 544 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: are upset about it. It's ruled a homicide. The woman 545 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: did not fall down the stairs. But the biggest piece 546 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: of this is Cheryl. That woman, Elizabeth Ratliffe, who fell 547 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: down the stairs in Germany, was the biological mother of 548 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: Margaret and Martha Ratliff, who are the biggest proponents of 549 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: their father's innocence. Their father who killed their biological mother 550 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 2: at when they were ages three and five, just babies, 551 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: didn't even know her, and their step with her mercy. 552 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: Well, y'all, there you have it. I mean, I don't 553 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,479 Speaker 1: know if this could serve any better as a wake 554 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: up call to say, hey, when you're watching these things, 555 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: a grain of salt, please if you know what scratch 556 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: that it ought to be a block assault, because you know, 557 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: when you watch these and then you go to the office, 558 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: or you hang out with friends, or you come to 559 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: a crime type convention and you think you know, and 560 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: you might even be you know, putting your advocacy in 561 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: the wrong place. 562 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 2: Well, and of course now we have the infamous owl, 563 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: and I want to talk about that because when I 564 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 2: was at crime con I was trying to get to 565 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: the owl and ran out of time and never really 566 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 2: got to address it. There is this theory that an 567 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 2: owl attacked Kathleen Peterson and she ran into the house 568 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: and that's how the blood got roll over the stairs 569 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: because she was running upstairs to go to towel. Now, 570 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 2: the first of the one I asked you, Cheryl, if 571 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 2: you were to get attacked violently by a rector or 572 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: some kind of owl, creature. What would be the first 573 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 2: thing you do, go running upstairs to get a towel? No, 574 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: because I mean I know what I would do. I'd 575 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: be climbing eight flights of stairs to make sure that, 576 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, I could get away from that owl and 577 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 2: you know, find a towel somewhere upstairs in your mansion. 578 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 2: I mean, it's ridiculous, all right. 579 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when it comes to any type of 580 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: talent attacking me, I'm not going to go higher because 581 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: they can beat me there, I continue to attack me. 582 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: Now, the theory initially wasn't that the owl followed her 583 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 2: into the house. It's morphed. Originally was she was attacked, 584 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 2: she ran in to get a towel, and you know, 585 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 2: fell down the stairs because and she was throwing her 586 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: hair back and forth and that, you know, that's how 587 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,959 Speaker 2: the spatter got all over the stairwell. Now it has 588 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 2: morphed into it's possible the owl followed her into the 589 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 2: house and that's where she was running up the stairs, 590 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: and that she was shaking her hair to get the 591 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 2: owl off of her head. Forget about blood evidence, forget 592 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 2: about the fact that you know, Kat, they were in debt, 593 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: they were living they had over one hundred and fifty 594 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 2: thousand dollars in debt. They were living off credit cards, 595 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 2: brote and revolving credit cards. Michael Peterson hadn't sold the 596 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 2: book in years. He had no money whatsoever. He needed money, 597 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 2: he was desperate. There was a one point two million 598 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 2: dollars insurance policy on Kathleen. There was money to be 599 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: had also through her on her stocks for the company. 600 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 2: She was the breadwinner in that household. She was the 601 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 2: one who put those kids through college, five of them, 602 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 2: four being Peterson's kids and one pers Caitlin. You know, 603 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: she did it all. She was the hero. She was 604 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 2: the one. And now Michael Peterson is sitting back thinking, 605 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: I don't have anything. I can't I can't, I can't 606 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 2: function because that Kathleen's talking about. We've got to sell 607 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 2: the mansion. We shouldn't be here, we don't need it. 608 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 2: The kids are moving out their college, are going to 609 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: go on their own. We need to downsize. They lived 610 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: in a house, Cheryl, you don't ever see this, and 611 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 2: you know the film version is little bit there's a 612 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 2: hint that house was falling apart. Kathleen had to go 613 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 2: downstairs to take a shower. She could not take a 614 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 2: shower in her own bedroom, master bedroom because it didn't 615 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: work and there was no money to have it fixed. 616 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 2: And of course that's just one example. If you read 617 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 2: the book, you're gonna know I end it with a 618 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: very strange ending, and I don't want to say what 619 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: it is. But if you happen to read A Perfect Husband, 620 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 2: you will see exactly all that went into the planning 621 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 2: and the sensibility of Michael Peterson who felt this happened 622 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, that the world was crashing, 623 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 2: The world was coming to an end, and it was 624 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: the stock market was wobbly, and Kathleen the company she 625 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 2: worked for, called the Loorchell Networks in the research triangle, 626 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 2: she was the top, one of the top executives there. 627 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 2: She was a dynamo. And what she was firing people 628 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: left and right. The company was having her fire everyone, 629 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 2: including her boss. Once her boss was fired, her boss 630 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: was fired. And now she's telling Michael I could be next. 631 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 2: I could be on the chopping walk. She's worried. Now 632 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: he's really worried because where's his money going to come from? 633 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: You know, I tell people all the time, I look 634 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: for patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns, and then sometimes it just 635 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: comes down to math. And when you talk about al's 636 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: attacking people statistically, it is insignificant. 637 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: Insignificant. There's only one name that comes up when you 638 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 2: do it, and then Katherine Peterson. And since that's for years, okay, 639 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 2: for years, it's that time, there is now one other 640 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 2: name under does an owl attack kill somebody? There's another name, 641 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 2: and it's a person who was attacked by now and 642 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 2: died from a heart attack from the fright of it, 643 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: not that the owl was able to Actually it's not 644 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: a lion, okay, right, it's not dog like, it's not 645 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 2: a pitbull. 646 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: It's a freaking owl. And questions. 647 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: I mean, that's but here's the thing people ask me, 648 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: and I've had this, this is regularly. Now, well, how 649 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 2: did the feathers get into Kathleen's hair? Then, okay, I'm 650 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 2: going to give you an answer that I've lived with 651 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 2: every day since this crazy theory came up, and that 652 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 2: is every day. I clean out my brush every two 653 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 2: three days. So I'm a clean freak. And when I 654 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 2: do it, there's always this fuzzy substance and that's why 655 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: I do it. So often. I don't call it fuzzy, 656 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,399 Speaker 2: but it's a fluffy substance in there besides just my hair. 657 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: And in the beginning, I would never really pay attention 658 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 2: to what is this? What is this? Long time ago? 659 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,399 Speaker 2: And then I realize I sleep on down pillows. In 660 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 2: those back in time, most people slept on down pillows. 661 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 2: If you had money, you slept on a down pillow. 662 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 2: So what is all that little fuzziness that's in between 663 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 2: my hair when I brush out my calm out my 664 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 2: brush every other day. It's feathers. It's the feathers that 665 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 2: come out of the down pillow. And I know it 666 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 2: because as the pillow gets older, I see actual feathers 667 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 2: that are on the floor. If the pillow, you know, 668 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 2: once the bed's being made, a feather comes out. I 669 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 2: don't know if you've ever had pillow that, you know, 670 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 2: a couch pillow that's got down feathers in it, the 671 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 2: feather will come out. 672 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: And I think everybody has seen their brush look like that. 673 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 2: Exactly mm hm exactly. And where is that power from? 674 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 2: So these were microscopic feathers, not half that there's you 675 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,959 Speaker 2: can't say what other it is microscopic feathers that would 676 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 2: have been in anybody's hair, Okay, And that has become 677 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 2: now an argument by people online who want to present 678 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 2: the I don't know a bizarre theory. I don't even understand. 679 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 2: Can you understand why people want to do this? 680 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,439 Speaker 1: It is so far out of my wheelhouse. 681 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 2: No. 682 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: I often tell people it is being uninformed plus being 683 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: main This is what you get. It's just flat maineness. 684 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: They want to hurt people. 685 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: Well, and that's certainly. And we talked about one of 686 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 2: their cases and I'd like to just touch on that 687 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 2: with you in a minute, but you know, from Indiana, 688 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: But you know the thing also with Karen Reid, another 689 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 2: one of these cases I want to touch up really quickly. 690 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 2: There is absolutely do you know I interviewed Michael Peterson 691 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 2: in prison for my show It's there if you wanted 692 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 2: to look at that episode on Discovery plaus if you 693 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 2: have it, you will see that in the interview I 694 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 2: do with him in prison, he's lost, olear his appetals, 695 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 2: he doesn't care anymore, he's finished. He gets out on 696 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 2: a technicality much later, and there's no owl involved in 697 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 2: the story. At that point. He tells me she fell 698 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 2: down the stairs. I asked him off camera about this 699 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 2: al theory because I had to interview the guy who 700 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 2: came up with this theory. My producers set that up. 701 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, are they crazy. They're going 702 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 2: to have me talk to this OLMN And I did 703 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 2: do it with a straight face. I don't know how 704 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 2: I got through it, but I did. When I asked 705 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 2: Michael about it in person in prison, he who puted 706 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,240 Speaker 2: it like I was crazy to even bring this up. Okay, 707 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 2: he doesn't believe it by get his lawyer data. Rudolph 708 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 2: is one of the most twisted people, I think in 709 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 2: the business because what has he done, Cheryl. He's gone 710 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 2: around with the lawyer from making a murderer and they 711 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 2: made a show out of it, and they've gone all 712 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 2: over the United States and to London and to outside 713 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 2: the country other places to present the fact that these 714 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 2: two murders were were not permitted to work. You know, 715 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 2: justice is not served in America, that everything is wrong 716 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 2: about the prosecutorial system in America. Everybody asked the same question, 717 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 2: what about the owl? And do you know he had 718 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 2: a whole presentation ready to show everybody that it could 719 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 2: have been and he calls it a ractor. I actually 720 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 2: videoed it because I couldn't believe my eyes ears. I 721 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 2: couldn't be believe that this man would stoop so low, 722 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,439 Speaker 2: didn't come ever into trial because he would be laughed 723 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 2: right out of court. I asked the judge about this 724 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,839 Speaker 2: back in time as well, Judge Hudson, I mean, this 725 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 2: man is now catering to an audience who wants to 726 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 2: believe there's an owl involved in this. 727 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned Delphi, and there's all these people 728 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 1: that are saying Richard Allen, there's no evidence he didn't 729 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: do it, that the police are all corrupt, the jury 730 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: got it wrong since he was found guilty on all 731 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: four counts. It's even worse. And there's a group of 732 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: people that are even blaming the victim's sister, like it's 733 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: so out of bounds it doesn't even warrant a comment. 734 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: But it is disheartening. And again I think it is 735 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: a directed online assault toward these families and toward law 736 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: enforcement and toward the prosecution. It serves no purpose, It 737 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: helps no one. 738 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 2: It helps no one, but it does make for good 739 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 2: fodder for everybody to be gossiping and theorizing and putting 740 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 2: out conspiracies, And the worst part about it is, as 741 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 2: you said early on, these people are hiding behind made 742 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 2: up names. Nobody's coming out in public and saying this 743 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 2: with their real self. They can hide behind a screen 744 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 2: and a made up name and just say whatever they want. 745 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 2: They just few stuff out there, and then there's other 746 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 2: people who want to join in on that because they're 747 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 2: almost having fun with murder? Can I see that? 748 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: Is that all thinks that's accurate? It is horrible. It 749 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: is horrible. Well listen, honey, I can't tell you how 750 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: much I appreciate you. I cannot tell you how much 751 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: the voice of reason is resonating with me so much tonight. 752 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: I needed to talk to you. I needed to hear 753 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: some common sense. I needed to hear somebody that's gonna 754 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: flat say it and lay it out. So I appreciate 755 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: you so much once again joining us in letting us 756 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: hear the facts. 757 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Cheryl for having me on. You are 758 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 2: one of the top people in this business and I 759 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 2: always enjoy being on with you to talk about things 760 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 2: that are really important in the true crime world and 761 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 2: trying to get some of this stuff set straight. 762 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: Y'all. I'm going to end zone seven. The way that 763 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: I always do with a quote, A half truth is 764 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: a lie, Lisa Rubercaus Mooney. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this 765 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: is only seven h