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Speaker 1: Hey, Jorge, are you a collector?

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Speaker 2: What do you mean like a debt collector?

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Speaker 1: I mean, like, do you have a room in your

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Speaker 1: house full of original Transformers still in the packages?

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Speaker 2: I wish, but no. Those might be worth a lot

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Speaker 2: of money now, but no, I actually took them out

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Speaker 2: and played with them, although I wish you had those also.

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Speaker 1: So is that the source of your encyclopedic knowledge of

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Speaker 1: Pokemon and Transformers?

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Speaker 2: What do you mean?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, every time I describe some new hypothetical particle,

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Speaker 1: you tell me that's actually the name of a Transformer.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's because I'm an expert. I think

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Speaker 2: that's just because all physics names sound like Transformers.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe because we actually stole them from Transformers.

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Speaker 2: What do you have to give credit then, to Hasbro

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Speaker 2: in your papers?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we give them a share of the zero dollars

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Speaker 1: we make off of each particle.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean you don't work for free?

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Speaker 1: Do you the particles?

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Speaker 3: Do?

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Speaker 2: Did you tax dollars?

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Speaker 4: Hi?

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Speaker 2: I'm Hori mccartoonist and the author of All Our's Great

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Speaker 2: Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine. And I hope you never have to

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Speaker 1: name a particle. Wait, why not, doesn't it mean you

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Speaker 1: discovered it. Oh I'd love to discover a particle. But

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Speaker 1: then I'm given that huge responsibility of choosing a name.

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Speaker 1: And frankly, after all our conversations, I'm terrified.

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Speaker 2: You're terrified of cartoonis criticizing your name choices.

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Speaker 1: I'm terrified of legacy history.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 1: People who have given particles silly names. History doesn't look

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Speaker 1: kindly on them. Oh.

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Speaker 2: I see, so that's your excuse for not having discovered

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Speaker 2: a particle.

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Speaker 1: That's one of my many excuses.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that sounds a little convenient.

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Speaker 1: Know the truth is, I would love to discover particle.

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Speaker 1: And in that case, you know, I just crowdsourced the

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Speaker 1: name hmmm, to your kids, maybe to the internet. So

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Speaker 1: it ended up with like particle face.

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Speaker 2: Is it a website? Like? Is there a website for

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Speaker 2: coming up with particle names?

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Speaker 1: Not yet, but what a great idea.

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Speaker 2: You can find anything on the Internet. I wonder what

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Speaker 2: happened if you ask Chad Gpt to come up with

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Speaker 2: a name for a new particle.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. Naming a new particle is a significant responsibility.

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Speaker 1: It suggests we avoid personal or self referential names. We

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Speaker 1: should consider its properties, we should go after historical figure,

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Speaker 1: we should consult with the scientific community. See, this is

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Speaker 1: serious stuff.

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Speaker 2: I feel like maybe that chat GPT's trained on your neuroses.

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Speaker 2: It seems to know your anxieties. Maybe maybe it's been

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Speaker 2: learning all this time that you've been talking to it.

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Speaker 1: No, I think chat GPT and I are both trained

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Speaker 1: on the neurosis of the internet.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, now you have chat GPT, so you have

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Speaker 2: no excuse for not discovering a new particle.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'll get to work.

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Speaker 2: But anyways, welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain

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Speaker 2: the universe production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we are absolutely desperate to understand the nature

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Speaker 1: of the universe, to uncover new particles and forces, to

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Speaker 1: reveal the fundamental nature of space and time, and to

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Speaker 1: put it all together, to explain our experience in this

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Speaker 1: crazy cosmos.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, WHOA desperate. I don't know if we could go

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Speaker 2: that far. It make us sound kind of thirsty.

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Speaker 1: I am thirsty for knowledge. Absolutely, Yes, you're thirsty to

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Speaker 1: get it on with the particles of the universe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've said it before. I would invite aliens to Earth,

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Speaker 1: even if I knew they were going to zap Us

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Speaker 1: from orbit, if they would only tell us the truth

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Speaker 1: of the universe.

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Speaker 2: Boy, you would make that choice for the entire human race.

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Speaker 1: I'm thirsty, man, I got a thirst, and it's got

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Speaker 1: to be quenched.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like a good excuse to put you in

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Speaker 2: a rocket ship and shoot you out of here. You're

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Speaker 2: clearly not on our side.

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Speaker 1: I'm on the side of knowledge, man.

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Speaker 2: You're on the side of dinner apparently. But yeah, it

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Speaker 2: is an interesting universe and we are are really at

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Speaker 2: a loss for understanding how it all works, what it's

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Speaker 2: all made out of, and what are the rules that

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Speaker 2: govern what can happen and what cannot happen in the universe.

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Speaker 1: Though you might feel like the universe is pretty well

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Speaker 1: understood scientifically speaking, and historically, we're just beginning our journey

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Speaker 1: of understanding it. In one hundred years or in five

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Speaker 1: hundred years, people will look back on this era of

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Speaker 1: science and say, Wow, they were very clueless about how

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Speaker 1: the universe worked.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that's a very optimistic view of humanity.

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Speaker 1: That will be around in five hundred years To look back.

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Speaker 2: You mean, yeah, that we're not going to go into

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Speaker 2: the post apocalyptic healthscape of humanity, and we'll look back

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Speaker 2: at this time as maybe the peak of humanity.

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Speaker 1: In our caves in a few hundred years, scratching out

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Speaker 1: podcasts for our few listeners. We will look back to

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Speaker 1: the golden age of science when Daniel didn't discover anything.

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Speaker 2: We're going to look back and be like, what's a podcast?

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Speaker 1: Was that a particle?

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Speaker 2: Who had time for that?

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Speaker 1: You're right, I'm implicitly being optimistic, assuming that scientific knowledge

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Speaker 1: will continue to accumulate and the pace will continue to

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Speaker 1: accelerate the way it has over the last decade, fifty years,

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Speaker 1: even one hundred years. I'm hopeful. But that requires us

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Speaker 1: to survive and maintain society and to make science a priority.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not to sell us out to the hungry aliens.

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Speaker 1: Hmm though that would fast forward us into the future

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Speaker 1: of knowledge and dinner. But what if the aliens don't

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Speaker 1: have all the answers? Well, what if they have the

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Speaker 1: answers and we just can't grock them? Oof? So frustrating.

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Speaker 1: I just sold the human race for nothing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you might want to look at the menu first,

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Speaker 2: figure it out. Before they sell us all out.

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Speaker 1: But we can't rely on those aliens or even those

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Speaker 1: future humans. We got to figure it out. We are

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Speaker 1: working hard today to try to understand the nature of

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Speaker 1: the universe on the largest scales, how big is it,

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Speaker 1: how much bigger is it getting? And how quickly is

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Speaker 1: it getting bigger.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We're on our own trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: the mysteries of the universe, and it all starts with

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Speaker 2: asking questions and coming up with maybe sometimes crazy ideas

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Speaker 2: to try to explain how it all works.

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Speaker 1: We're pretty sure that most of our ideas about how

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Speaker 1: the universe works and the largest scale, the size of it,

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Speaker 1: the shape of it, the rate of its expansion, why

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Speaker 1: it's expanding, why that expansion is accelerating, We're pretty sure

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Speaker 1: those ideas are wrong. And what we looked back on

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Speaker 1: is just sort of like initial explorations. But that's crucial.

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Speaker 1: Science is not a straight line. It's a zigzag wandering

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Speaker 1: through a dark forest hoping to find the clearing and.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes you have to get creative about it and

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Speaker 2: even come up with things that sound like transformers or pokemons,

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Speaker 2: or maybe come up with transformers that would be pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: They could help us find the answers to the universe.

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Speaker 1: You think they'll be mad when they discovered to've been

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Speaker 1: stealing their names for particles for a few decades.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe they'd be honored to be named after certain particles.

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Speaker 1: Now you're the one being optimistic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I am an optimist prime And so today on

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Speaker 2: the podcast, we'll be tackling the question what is a symtron.

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Speaker 1: And what does it transform into?

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Speaker 2: What does it not transform into?

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Speaker 1: Maybe it transforms us into aliens that do understand the universe.

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Speaker 2: What is a symmetron? I don't think I've heard that

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Speaker 2: word before, but it sounds a little bit like symmetry

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Speaker 2: and tron, so something electronic.

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Speaker 1: You're not far from the truth. Yeah, boom podcast over.

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Speaker 2: Do you know why the word tron or ending a

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Speaker 2: word with tron somehow implies electricity or technology or particles.

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Speaker 2: Do you know the origin of that? I'm asking if

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Speaker 2: you know, because I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think the word ion comes from some Greek word,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not an expert in the etymology of particles.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're saying like, maybe that's where the word electron

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Speaker 2: comes from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, although you know the electron originally was named something else.

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Speaker 1: The discoverer of it, JJ. Thompson called it a corpuscule,

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Speaker 1: and then later it was renamed electron. But my guess

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Speaker 1: is that all these ons come from ion, which is

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Speaker 1: a Greek word.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess that was a good thing, because otherwise

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Speaker 2: we'd be associating technology. But the word puscal with the

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Speaker 2: ending puscol, and everything would be named pusicle. The bad

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Speaker 2: guy in Transformers would be called megapuscal. But I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: this is maybe one of those creative ideas that a

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Speaker 2: scientists have come up with to try to explain some

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Speaker 2: deep mystery of the universe.

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Speaker 1: It is indeed well as usually.

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Speaker 2: We were wondering how many people out there had heard

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Speaker 2: of a symmetron or could guess what it is or

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Speaker 2: what it transforms into. So Daniel went out there into

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Speaker 2: the internet again to ask people what is a symmetron.

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Speaker 1: Because this podcast is all about audience participation, you guys

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Speaker 1: can write us questions and we'll answer. You can hear

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Speaker 1: your voice on the podcast speculating about the topic of

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Speaker 1: the day. If you'd like to join this group, please

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Speaker 1: write to me two questions at Danielandhorge dot com.

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Speaker 2: So think about it for a second. Is it a

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Speaker 2: pokemon or is it a robot? Here's what people had

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Speaker 2: to say.

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Speaker 6: Well, it's either a transformer or a quantum particle or both. Symmetron,

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Speaker 6: it obviously has something to do with symmetry. Other than that,

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Speaker 6: I can't really hazard a guess.

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Speaker 5: Guessing based on the on at the end of it

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Speaker 5: that like a photon or a beryon, that it's some

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Speaker 5: kind of particle that conveys a type of symmetry.

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Speaker 3: Well, symmetron makes me think of cyclotron, and a cycloton

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Speaker 3: I think is the old term for a well another

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Speaker 3: term for a particle collider and symmetron symmetrical would be

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Speaker 3: sort of means that it's the same in some way.

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Speaker 3: Maybe is it a strait as opposed to a ring

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Speaker 3: format particle collider?

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Speaker 4: Well, I've never heard of a symotron. It sounds like

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Speaker 4: a particle that exhibits some special symmetry, But lots of

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Speaker 4: particles exhibit symmetry, which makes me think it's probably some

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Speaker 4: theoretical symmetry we haven't seen yet that defines what this

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Speaker 4: particle is.

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Speaker 3: A symmetron, is a device that you can set on

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Speaker 3: top of your piano to the pace it goes.

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Speaker 2: No, I guess it's a.

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Speaker 1: Particle and it communicates symmetry between other particles. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea.

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Speaker 7: Is that a particle wave it's identical to another particle?

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Speaker 7: Cancels it out?

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Speaker 5: Maybe?

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Speaker 2: Or all right? Some creative answers here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean you put this name on anything. You

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Speaker 1: could name it your cat, right, The answer to the

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Speaker 1: podcast could be like, Symmetron is my cat?

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Speaker 2: Oh, there you go. You could name your cat Symmetron. Yes,

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Speaker 2: but isn't that a big responsibility also to name your cat?

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Speaker 1: Hmmm? That's true, although I don't think history will judge

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Speaker 1: you as much because it's probably just between you and

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Speaker 1: the cat, mostly unless the cat becomes famous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, also, you don't mind your cat unhappy with you?

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Speaker 2: I hear that's a bad thing. It would be a

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Speaker 2: catastrophe in IIan.

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Speaker 1: It's the cats who are in charge.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's an interesting idea, and so let's dig

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Speaker 2: into this, Uh, Daniel, what is a symotron?

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Speaker 1: So, a symotron is a hypothetical new particle that of

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Speaker 1: course also comes with a field that has really unusual properties,

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Speaker 1: and physicists invent a new field and particles sometimes not

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Speaker 1: just for fun. We don't just like line in the

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Speaker 1: grass and be like, h what if there's this kind

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Speaker 1: of particle. We do it to explain something we've seen

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Speaker 1: in the universe. The whole process of physics is like

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Speaker 1: go out there, see stuff that's happens, and then try

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Speaker 1: to build a model that explains it. And when the

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Speaker 1: model fails, we add new who's it's and what's it's

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Speaker 1: to try to get it to describe the universe. So

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Speaker 1: the symmetron is a new thing people are trying to

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Speaker 1: add into our model of physics to explain some stuff

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Speaker 1: that we otherwise can't explain.

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Speaker 2: Although sometimes in the history of physics it has been

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Speaker 2: the case that you just kind of like tool around

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Speaker 2: in the lab and you discover stuff.

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Speaker 1: Right. Oh, there was a golden era the particle Zoo,

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Speaker 1: when every time you turned on the accelerator you saw

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Speaker 1: a new particle and you could give it.

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Speaker 2: A name every time.

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Speaker 1: It was incredible, and they cranked up the energy boom

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Speaker 1: new particles made. It was amazing. I missed those days, hmmm.

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Speaker 1: They were decades before I was born, but I still

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Speaker 1: miss them.

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Speaker 2: But I think we're talking about a theoretical particle here,

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Speaker 2: not one that we have discovered or seen or explored experimentally,

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Speaker 2: just one that we have dreamed of to try to

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Speaker 2: explain something that is happening that we can't explain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the same spirit that, like the Higgs boson,

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Speaker 1: was conceived of theoretically. Peter Higgs saw this pattern in

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Speaker 1: nature and he thought, hmm, this would be so much prettier.

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Speaker 1: It would make much more sense if we added a

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Speaker 1: new particle and feel to the story. And it all

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Speaker 1: worked out mathematically and beautifully, and then we went out

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Speaker 1: and looked for it. So you can add things theoretically,

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Speaker 1: but if they don't actually describe what's happening in the universe,

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Speaker 1: it's not very useful. So in this case, people are

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Speaker 1: again adding a new theoretical particle to try to explain

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Speaker 1: some stuff that otherwise doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So then what is the mystery that the symotron

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Speaker 2: hopes to resolve?

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Speaker 1: So the simitron is here to do battle with a

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Speaker 1: really big question in physics, which is why is the

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Speaker 1: universe expanding faster and faster every year? Like we know

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Speaker 1: the universe is really big. We can look out there

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Speaker 1: and see stuff that's really far away. We've known for

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Speaker 1: like one hundred years that the universe is expanding. You

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Speaker 1: look out in every direction and you see galaxies moving

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Speaker 1: away from us. But a couple of decades ago we

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Speaker 1: got precise enough measurements about how that expansion is changing

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Speaker 1: over time that we learned something kind of shocking that

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Speaker 1: the expansion is not slowing down like Einstein thought, but

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Speaker 1: that it's actually speeding up. There's something out there accelerating

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Speaker 1: the expansion of space.

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Speaker 2: Meaning it's getting bigger, faster and faster each time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, space between galaxy clusters is getting bigger, and every

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Speaker 1: year it's getting bigger at a higher rate. So we

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Speaker 1: new space is being created faster.

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Speaker 2: And faster, and they're not just running away from alias

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Speaker 2: that want to eat them.

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Speaker 1: They may be accomplishing that, but it's sort of the

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Speaker 1: secondary thing. And in physics we give this a name

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Speaker 1: dark energy, But just because we give it a name

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean we understand what's going on or we can

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Speaker 1: explain what's happening. So far, this is just observational. We've

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Speaker 1: seen this in our telescopes and in our measurements and

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Speaker 1: we've tried to grapple with it. We've like, what could

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Speaker 1: explain this, What possible mechanism could we have that could

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Speaker 1: generate this kind of crazy accelerating expansion.

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Speaker 2: Because I guess the idea that it's accelerating is weird, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: if it was expanding at a constant rate, then you

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Speaker 2: might assume that, well, maybe you had some initial velocity

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Speaker 2: from the beginning of the universe and so it's just

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Speaker 2: coasting and getting bigger. But the idea that it's accelerating

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Speaker 2: means there's something going on, right, something must be powering

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Speaker 2: this acceleration.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It was really shocking in the context of

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Speaker 1: Einstein's general relativity because in his model, if you have

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Speaker 1: a universe with mass in it, that causes negative acceleration

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Speaker 1: of the expansion basically pulls everything together. It curves the universe,

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Speaker 1: and it pulls everything together. Basically just gravity should pull

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Speaker 1: the whole universe together. But when Hubble and others discovered

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Speaker 1: that the universe is expanding, then people thought, all right,

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Speaker 1: so we have an expanding universe as you say, initial velocity,

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Speaker 1: but still should be negative acceleration because all the gravity

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Speaker 1: should be pulling everything together, and we didn't know if

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be enough gravity to pull everything back together

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Speaker 1: to like squeeze it down into a big crunch, or

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Speaker 1: if there's gonna be so much velocity that it coast forever,

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Speaker 1: slowing down but never actually come back. Then we discovered

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Speaker 1: that neither of those are the case, and what actually

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Speaker 1: happening is something else is giving us positive acceleration, is

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Speaker 1: increasing the rate of expansion every year.

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Speaker 2: Now, back then, do we know that it was space

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Speaker 2: itself that was expanding or did we maybe think that

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Speaker 2: all the galaxies were just moving through space and getting

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Speaker 2: further apart from each other.

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Speaker 1: How far back then are you talking Einstein and Hubble?

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Speaker 1: Are you talking discovery dark energy twenty years ago?

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Speaker 2: I mean before an hour ago before. I'm becoming familiar

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Speaker 2: with this topic.

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Speaker 1: Well, ever since we've had general relativity, we've understood that

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Speaker 1: to describe the expanding universe is to describe the expansion

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Speaker 1: of space itself, because general relativity tells us that the

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Speaker 1: universe has a shape and it has curvature, and so

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Speaker 1: you can't have like a single reference frame for the

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Speaker 1: whole universe. Instead, you should think about it as like

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Speaker 1: a reference frame for each galaxy, and then those reference

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Speaker 1: frames are moving relative to each other in space is

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Speaker 1: expanding between them, So you can't really answer the question

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Speaker 1: like what is the velocity of that galaxy and measured

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Speaker 1: in our frame? You really just have to say, they

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Speaker 1: have a frame, we have a frame, and the space

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Speaker 1: between them is expanding.

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Speaker 2: But back then, did we know that, Like when we

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Speaker 2: first noticed that the galaxies were moving away from us,

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Speaker 2: did we know that it was space it's expanding, or

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Speaker 2: did we maybe at first thought, oh, they're just moving

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Speaker 2: away from us through space.

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Speaker 1: Well, all this requires is general relativity, which we've had

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Speaker 1: well before we knew the universe was expanding. So the

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Speaker 1: answer is yes, we've described in terms of expanding space

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Speaker 1: since the beginning. This might sound a little confusing to

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Speaker 1: listeners because we often talk about the receipt eschen velocity

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Speaker 1: of galaxies, and when you hear about the expansion of

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Speaker 1: the universe, we talk about these velocities, and for stuff

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Speaker 1: that's really really far away, you could even say that

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Speaker 1: recession velocity is faster than the speed of light. That's

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Speaker 1: just sort of a sloppy shorthand that's saying, well, look,

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Speaker 1: we know it's space expanding but that's hard to think about.

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Speaker 1: So let's just pretend we could measure the velocities of

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Speaker 1: those galaxies. If we could do that, what would that

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Speaker 1: velocity be? But those velocities aren't meaningful. We can't actually

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Speaker 1: measure those things because we don't have a single frame

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Speaker 1: that puts both galaxies in it. So the technical way

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Speaker 1: to think about it accurately is to think about separate

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Speaker 1: frames with space expanding between them.

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Speaker 2: You're saying, like, these velocities are really just the expansion

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Speaker 2: of space getting bigger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And you know that because you can't measure

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Speaker 1: that acceleration. Like, if you wanted to think about it

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Speaker 1: in terms of acceleration, then all those galaxies should be

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Speaker 1: accelerating away from us. You should be able to measure

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Speaker 1: that acceleration. You like, have an accelerometer in that galaxy.

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Speaker 1: You should be able to measure it. But you can't

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Speaker 1: because there is no real acceleration there. It's just the

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Speaker 1: expansion of space. If you put a ball in the

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Speaker 1: back of a pickup truck, doesn't slant one side because

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Speaker 1: space is expanding in some direction, right, it stays flat.

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Speaker 1: Because we don't measure any local acceleration. Because we're not

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Speaker 1: accelerating in our frame, even though the expansion of space

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Speaker 1: between us and other galaxies is accelerating. And all of

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Speaker 1: this happily lives within general relativity, but it requires an

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Speaker 1: explanation the same way like you need mass to bend space,

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Speaker 1: you need something to provide this negative pressure to expand space.

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Speaker 1: And the big question about dark energy is what is that?

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Speaker 1: What is doing this thing? What is providing the energy

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Speaker 1: to accelerate the expansion of space.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I think you're saying that space it's growing. It's

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Speaker 2: not just growing, it's growing faster and faster so that

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Speaker 2: the galaxies look like they're accelerating away from us. But

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Speaker 2: really it's just the expansion of space that's like going

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Speaker 2: a double time. And so the question now is what's

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Speaker 2: powering all that creation of new space? And so that's

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Speaker 2: kind of what dark energy is a placeholder for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, dark energy says something's doing it, we don't know what.

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Speaker 1: And the cool thing is you don't have to throw

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Speaker 1: away general relativity. General relativity has a knob in it.

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Speaker 1: This is called Einstein's cosmological constant. You could just crank

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Speaker 1: this knob up and say, what if there's energy in

401
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Speaker 1: empty space. If all of empty space is filled with

402
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Speaker 1: potential energy, then general relativity says, exactly this would happen.

403
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Speaker 1: The question is is that what's happening is the universe

404
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Speaker 1: filled with this potential energy? Where does it come from?

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Speaker 1: What field would that be? So you can incorporate it

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Speaker 1: into general relativity if you have like a field that

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Speaker 1: has a lot of potential energy. But we don't and

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Speaker 1: we can't explain that. So there's like a mechanism within

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Speaker 1: gr to do this, but we don't know how to

410
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Speaker 1: turn that mechanism on.

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Speaker 2: Meaning like you have your equations and you put a

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Speaker 2: number in if there's a term in the equations that

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Speaker 2: explains or that would account for this acceleration of space growing.

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Speaker 2: And so now the question is like what is that number?

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Speaker 2: What's causing that number? Is it a field? Is there

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Speaker 2: a particle associated with it? Are there pokemons hidden inside

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Speaker 2: of there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. General relativity says, if you have

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Speaker 1: a field with high potential energy, then that translates into

420
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Speaker 1: a number in these equations, and that creates accelerating expansion.

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Speaker 1: But what is that field with potential energy? We look

422
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Speaker 1: around to all the fields we know, like the Higgs field,

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Speaker 1: which actually does have significant potential energy. And we try

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Speaker 1: to calculate what number we should put into the equations,

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Speaker 1: and we get some number, But the number we should

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Speaker 1: put in from our calculations is different from the number

427
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Speaker 1: we need to explain the acceleration by a huge amount,

428
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Speaker 1: by ten to the one hundred. So if there's potential

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Speaker 1: energy out there in the universe, it's not from a

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Speaker 1: field we know about.

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Speaker 2: Well, all right, well let's get into those discrepancies and

432
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Speaker 2: let's go deeper into this mystery that might be solved

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Speaker 2: by this simitron. So let's stick into that. But first

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Speaker 2: let's take a quick break. All right, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: the symitron, which is so far are an imaginary or

436
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 2: imaginative particle that scientists have thought it to try to

437
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Speaker 2: explain why the universe is getting bigger, faster and faster.

438
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Speaker 2: And Danielie, we're saying that we have equations for the universe.

439
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Speaker 2: There's a number there that maybe explains or that would

440
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Speaker 2: give you a universe that's expanding faster and faster. But

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Speaker 2: now the question is what is that number. Is it

442
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 2: a field like our other fields, or is it just

443
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: a fudge factor? Or is it just the finger of God.

444
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, we actually know what the number is, right, We

445
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 1: know exactly what number you need in the equations to

446
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 1: get the accelerating expansion that we see. The question is

447
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: where does that number come from? And there's a bunch

448
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: of possible explanations. One is like, look, every universe just

449
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,679
Speaker 1: sort of has a number, and ours is generated with

450
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: this one. Let's just sort of like give it up,

451
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 1: shrug it off anthropic explanation and say there is no answer.

452
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 1: It just is what it is. Move on. Nothing to see.

453
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 2: Here, meaning it doesn't correspond to anything physical. It's just

454
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 2: that the equations of our universe don't balance out to zero.

455
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: They balance out to some random number.

456
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Einstein's cosmological constant can come from a field of

457
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: potential energy. But you can also just put a number

458
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: in and say, oh, these are the equations of our universe.

459
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: They have this number in them. Why that number? Well,

460
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, every universe gets a random number, and there's

461
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: an infant number of universes and this is the one

462
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: that we're in. It's not a great explanation, but it's

463
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: an explanation.

464
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: I mean, like, why does the universe have to balance

465
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: out to zero. You could ask that question too, right,

466
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: why does the balance out to three point four or seven.

467
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: Or forty two? Right, that's the best number anyway.

468
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's the answer.

469
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: That's the answer exactly. And now we finally found the question.

470
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: But those of us who are curious about the universe

471
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,719
Speaker 1: aren't satisfied with just being told I don't know it

472
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: is what it is. Move on. We want to know

473
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: if there is an explanation. And so many times in

474
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: the history of science we found things that looked weird

475
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 1: and we dug deeper and we have found explanations, reasons

476
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: why it had to be this and not something else.

477
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: And so some people have explored this idea of like,

478
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 1: let's create new fields that have potential energy that maybe

479
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: could explain why we have this number and not some

480
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: other number that we need to put into Einstein's.

481
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: Equation, meaning like we need this number to make the

482
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: equations balance out or to match what we see out

483
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: there in reality. And so let's pretend that this number

484
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: actually represents or maybe comes from some kind of physical

485
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: field of the universe.

486
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, because then we get to kick the can

487
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 1: down the street and say, oh, the expansion is due

488
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: to this potential energy from this field, and then we

489
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: can ask what's this field all about? Why does it

490
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: have to exist? How does it fit in with the

491
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: other fields? And we get to, you know, keep asking questions. Yeah,

492
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: stay employed, stay curious, stay curious, don't be so cynical.

493
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: All right, Well, so then the idea is end that

494
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 2: this constant, this number in the equations represents a field,

495
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: and is this this symmetron field.

496
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 1: Then no, so the cimitron field is a slightly weirder

497
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: version of this. The simplest idea is to just use

498
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: a constant, but there is no field out there that

499
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: we know about that provides this constant. So instead people

500
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: are trying another idea. Instead of having a constant, to

501
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: add a different term.

502
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't the Higgs field a constant too.

503
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: They put in a number which isn't constant. The Higgs

504
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: field is a constant. It's just not enough, right. The

505
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: Higgs field provides a tiny little bit, but doesn't provide

506
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: enough to explain the accelerating expansion. So people thought, oh, well,

507
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: let's try adding a different kind of term. Instead of

508
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: just adding a number, let's add something which has a derivative, right,

509
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: which doesn't disappear when you ask about the changes.

510
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 2: Meaning something that's changing with respect to time for example, Yeah,

511
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: like a variable, like a variable instead of a constant.

512
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: Exactly, a variable instead of a constant. Now, for a

513
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: long time, this has not been a very popular idea

514
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: because that does more than just explain the expansion of

515
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 1: the universe and its acceleration. It also creates new forces.

516
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: It says, oh well, if you have something which it varies,

517
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: it basically changes how gravity works in a way that

518
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: creates a new force on things, so like a fifth force.

519
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: So this has not been a very theoretically popular way

520
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: to go because it creates a fifth force, and you

521
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: know we don't see any fifth forces.

522
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 2: But I guess the question is, if a constant explains

523
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: the expansion of the universe, why do you need a

524
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 2: viable Why don't you stay with a constant.

525
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: Because we don't have an explanation for that constant.

526
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: So then the idea is just make it more complicated.

527
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: The idea is to make it more complicated. Say, maybe

528
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: a constant is the wrong way to go. We couldn't

529
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: make a work with a constant. We have no way

530
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: to explain that constant. So instead, let's choose a different

531
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: term that's not constant, that's variable. It's like, let's look

532
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: under a different kind of rock because we ran out

533
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: of the original kind of rock.

534
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: I guess maybe explain to our listeners what does it

535
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: mean to explain it? Like how does the constant fail

536
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: to explain the expansion?

537
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: The constant on its own wouldn't fail to explain it,

538
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: Like we know what constant you would need to put

539
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: in there to explain the accelerating expansion. We just don't

540
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: know how to justify that content, like where did it

541
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: come from? There's no field we know about that can

542
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: explain that constant.

543
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: But then if you put it viable, couldn't you also

544
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: ask the same question like why is it there?

545
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: Absolutely, if you put it in a variable, you also need

546
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: to justify it. It's just another idea, and then you

547
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: need to explain like where does that come from? The

548
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: answer is, oh, comes from a new field that we

549
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: haven't seen yet. Well, let's talk about what that field

550
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: is and how we might see it and what it

551
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: would look like.

552
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, No, actually don't see it. Sounds like

553
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: maybe you're just making it more complicated, just to make

554
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 2: it more complicated, to see if maybe the universe is

555
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: actually more complicated. But it sounds like it's not, though,

556
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: because it sounds like a constant, you know, matches what

557
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 2: we see experimentally.

558
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: You know, when you're in the early days of scientific ignorance,

559
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: you try lots of things. You try the simplest thing

560
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: first usually, and that's like just put in a constant

561
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: that hasn't really worked because we don't have any way

562
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: to explain those constants. So now we're trying the second

563
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: simplest thing, like, well, let's put in something which changes

564
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: a little bit, which has features and wiggles and is

565
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: a little bit more complicated, and let's just see what

566
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: that predicts. And if that's the universe we live in. Yeah,

567
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: maybe we do live in a more complicated universe. Maybe

568
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: there isn't a constant in this equation. Maybe there is

569
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: something that changes. I see.

570
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: You're just kind of exploring what these things can be. Like,

571
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: maybe what you're measuring is more complicated than what you're

572
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: actually see.

573
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's like if you notice cookies disappearing from

574
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: your kit, encounter simplest explanation that your kids eat it.

575
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: But you know, maybe there's some new animal out there

576
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,479
Speaker 1: you never discovered before that only eats kitchen cookies, and

577
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: so you should consider the hypothesis and it might take

578
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: you new places, like let's go look outside to find

579
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: evidence for this new crazy cookie eating animal because maybe

580
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: it does exist in your universe in the same way. Here,

581
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: like the simplest explanation hasn't really panned out, So some

582
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: people are like, well, let's look for a slightly more

583
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: complicated cookie eating universe.

584
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: But did you ask your kids if they took the

585
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: cookie first.

586
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: In this hypothetical scenario, I have somehow alibied them out

587
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: of the cookie eating.

588
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I see, Well, why not even go further? It

589
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: was aliens that ate the cookies?

590
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You could go further and there are people

591
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 1: doing that, right. There's no limit on what you can

592
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: do in theoretical physics. It's just a question of like,

593
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: is it a good idea, is it compelling, does it

594
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: lead to something we can test? Is it an interesting

595
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: thing to explore? And it's just up to the individual,

596
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: Like I'm sure there's some theoretical physicist out there going like, oh, yeah,

597
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: I have an even more complicated theory that you're really cool.

598
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm really asking is you're saying that

599
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: you can't really explain a constant for that equation. So

600
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 2: are you saying that maybe adding a variable will lead

601
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: you to an explanation of that variable.

602
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Let's put in a variable and see if

603
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: we can explain it. Let's explore the consequences of that variable.

604
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: What does it mean for other things in the universe.

605
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: What predictions does it make? Can we go out and

606
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: test those? If you predict that there's some new cookie

607
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: eating lizard in your backyard, then you have something to

608
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 1: go look for, you know, scratches on your window or something.

609
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: So in the same way, we're like, let's add a

610
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: slightly more complicated theory of the universe to explain this

611
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: accelerating expansion and also see what else it predicts that

612
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: maybe we could find.

613
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: All right, So, then the cimotron field is a special

614
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: new kind of field which has a variable and not

615
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: a constant in the equations of the universe. Tell me

616
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: about this field.

617
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: So mostly these fields are really not mainstream theoretical physics

618
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: for one important reason, which is that the variable nature

619
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: of them produces this extra force, and people are like, well,

620
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: we've never seen extra force, so that's out. So if

621
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: you're going to build this kind of theory and you

622
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: really want to make it work, you have to come

623
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: up with an explanation for why we haven't seen it yet.

624
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: Wait, why does it predict the force?

625
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: Because when you put that number into Einstein's equation to

626
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: figure out how things move, you end up having to

627
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: take a derivative of it. If it's a constant, that

628
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: goes away. If it's not a constant, if it's a variable,

629
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: then it's derivative doesn't go away. Its rate of change

630
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: with time is non zero, and that changes how things move,

631
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: and effectively, that's like a force.

632
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: It sticks around it like influences the acceleration of other

633
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: things in the equation, and so therefore that's what you

634
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: call a force.

635
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Basically, it's like it changes how gravity works, as

636
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: if there was another force out there, right, But.

637
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: We haven't seen a force like that, And so now

638
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: the question is like, how do you contort your theory

639
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: so that it explains why we haven't seen its force?

640
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And so the symmetron is one of a

641
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: category of theories like this, there's another that's called the

642
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: chameleon theory, another that's called the galileon theory, and this

643
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: one is called symotron theory, and it has a particular

644
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: way to avoid being ruled out by all these experiments,

645
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: as a symtron field. And this symotron field behaves differently

646
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: when there's a lot of stuff around, when it's like

647
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: high density materials, and when it's low density materials, So

648
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: in high density regions like within galaxies and in our

649
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: solar system, et cetera, et cetera, there's a symmetry in

650
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 1: this field. There's like basically two parts of it that

651
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: balance out and you get no force. So it basically

652
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: doesn't exist within the galaxy, which is cool because it

653
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: doesn't change how the solar system works, and we've measured

654
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: that very precisely. We would have noticed if something was weird.

655
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: But out past the edges of the galaxy where things

656
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: are very very low density, the symmetry in this field breaks,

657
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: and the broken symmetry there is what creates that force.

658
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: So basically the symmetron field behaves differently. When there's a

659
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: lot of mass around, it goes away, and when there's

660
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: no mass around. That's when it really starts to take

661
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: effect that.

662
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: It seems very convenient.

663
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: I think contrived is the way to think about it. Yeah, contorted,

664
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: made up, and that's not something to be ashamed of. Like,

665
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: this is how theoretical physics works. So like here, I

666
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: have an idea that conflixs with what we know about

667
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: the universe. Can I avoid that somehow? Can I add

668
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: some bells and whistles to my theories to avoid this

669
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: experimental measurement? I literally hear theorists doing that all day long.

670
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: Mmm, and it has that How often does that work?

671
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: Never so far?

672
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: I guess never so far? Well why not keep doing it?

673
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: Then? No? No, I mean you can go back to

674
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: the Higgs theory, like Higgs have to come up with

675
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: some new particle and new field which explained this puzzle

676
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: and didn't violate any of the other experiments people had done.

677
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: And so I'm sure that ruled out all sorts of

678
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: other simpler explanations that people first considered.

679
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: All right, So then the cymmetron field is a theoretical field,

680
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: and it just so happens that you can see it

681
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: around us, but maybe in between galaxies. You're saying, where

682
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: there's less stuff. Maybe that's when you would see it.

683
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly between galaxies is where you need to explain

684
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: how it wakes up and accelerates the expansion of the universe,

685
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: because really between galaxies and galaxy clusters is where the

686
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: dark energy is happening.

687
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: Oh so you're saying, like the cymatron field is a force,

688
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: and maybe it's the force that's achilarating the expansion of

689
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: the universe.

690
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: Loosely speaking, that's accurate. We can't really think of it

691
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: as a force because gravity isn't a force. It doesn't

692
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: generate measurable acceleration in that way, so you can't do

693
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: like f equals MA for things generated by gravity, and

694
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: this is something generated by general relativity, and so it

695
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: is sort of like a modification of gravity. But loosely speaking,

696
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: you can think of it as like an effective force.

697
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: We would see it as a force the way we

698
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: see gravity as a force in our.

699
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: Measurements, meaning it's not really pushing that the galaxies to

700
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: move away from us. It's just kind of like acting

701
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: there to create more space between us.

702
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.

703
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: So then how could we prove that whether the cymatron

704
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: field exists or not.

705
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems difficult because it's very conveniently impossible to

706
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: detect this thing within the galaxy, which is where we live, right.

707
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: But there's a recent paper where people were speculating about

708
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: mimicking the environment outside the galaxy by creating very low

709
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: density experiments. Essentially, try to do an experiment inside a

710
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: vacuum low density where you could see this force in action,

711
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: where you could detect the simitron field at work.

712
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: WHOA, Well, so let me picture this experiment. You create

713
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: a chamber like a box. You suck out all the

714
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: air to create a vacuum, and if this cymtron field exists,

715
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: it would maybe cause the space inside the box to

716
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: expand we get bigger.

717
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: And principle, yes, your box would get bigger, But remember

718
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: that dark energy is really a tiny effect over short distances,

719
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: like fractionally speaking, it's very very small. It's only really

720
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: measurable over very very large distances, like between galaxies, So

721
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: you'd never be able to measure the box getting bigger.

722
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: Though I love that idea.

723
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: Way would the box be bigger or would the space

724
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: side of it get bigger? But then it will go

725
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: through the box.

726
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: M Well, then you have a philosophical question of what's

727
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: the difference? Right? If there's more space inside the box,

728
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: isn't the box bigger?

729
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 4: No?

730
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 2: I mean like the space that the boxes in gets bigger,

731
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: but the box for me is the same.

732
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think the space inside the box would get bigger,

733
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: though the box would remain the same. But what do

734
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: you mean by the space inside the box gets bigger?

735
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: You mean you measure the distance from one side of

736
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: the box to the other. That would definitely grow. But

737
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: this isn't the experiment they're proposing. That's impossible to measure.

738
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: You could never measure that tiny growth of space.

739
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's thick to only things that are possible.

740
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: Sure, go, they've come up with a way to detect

741
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: the simotron field inside that vacuum.

742
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: Okay, how do they do that or how do they

743
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: propose to do that?

744
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: They proposed to do it basically by doing very very

745
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: precise tests of gravity. If this simtron field exists, it's

746
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: like a distortion of how gravity works. And so do

747
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: very precise tests of gravity. Take two masses, bring them

748
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: closer together and further apart, measure the forces on them

749
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: very precisely, and see if you see any deviation from

750
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: general relativity without the symmetron field. That's very very tricky

751
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: to do because gravity is very very weak, right, It's

752
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: like ten to thirty times weaker than any other force.

753
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: So these experiments have to be super duper precise. But

754
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: we have some techniques to.

755
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 2: Do them, so you can do this experiment.

756
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: You can do this experiment. And people have been interested

757
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: in deviations from gravitational predictions over small distances for a

758
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: few decades because there are other theories that predict that also,

759
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: like if there are extra dimensions to space and time

760
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 1: more than just the three we know about, then gravity

761
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: would work differently. But maybe those dimensions are really really small.

762
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: So a lot of these experiments were motivated by looking

763
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: to see if gravity changed when things got within like

764
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: a millimeter or a centimeter apart. And until twenty or

765
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, nobody knew the answer to that because

766
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: we could only really do gravitational measurements on like planets

767
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: and stuff interacting with planets. Two rocks pull on each

768
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: other with gravity, but it's very difficult to measure, so

769
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: people came up with these ingenious devices to measure gravity

770
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: on short distance scales. They're basically souped up versions of

771
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: the original torsion pendulums that we talked about once in

772
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: the podcast for how people would measure the gravitational constant.

773
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: In this case, you have two rotating discs, and the

774
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: discs have holes drilled inside of them, and you rotate

775
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: one of the discs and let the other one free.

776
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: Then you measure how the free disc is pulled by

777
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: the rotating disc because if gravity is strong, and then

778
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: they'll try to line up those two discs to line

779
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: up the places where there's more mass and line up

780
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: the places where there isn't this much mass. So if

781
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: you slowly rotate one of these disks and measure the

782
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: rotation of the other disc, you can measure the force

783
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: of gravity between these two objects that are just like

784
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: kilograms of mass.

785
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: Sounds a bit complicated, so maybe let's dig into the

786
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: details of this experiment and how it might or might

787
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: not show the existence of the symtron field and what

788
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: it could mean for our theory of the universe and

789
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: the future employment of all physicists. So let's dig into that.

790
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: But first let's take another quick break. All right, we

791
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: are inventing fields left and right, here to try to

792
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: explain the expansion of the universe, which is pretty inexplicable.

793
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: The universe is getting bigger and bigger, faster and faster.

794
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: We're trying to come up with an idea. A physicists

795
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: have come up with the idea of a cymitron field

796
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: to try to explain it. But Daniel, you're saying it

797
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: requires us to measure gravity at a really really tiny

798
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: small scale. Which I always thought, because you've said it

799
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: several times, is that it's almost impossible.

800
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: It's difficult. It requires real experimental bravado to figure out

801
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: how to remove sources of vibration and anything else that

802
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: might influence your experiment. In principle, these effects are happening

803
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: all the time right in front of you. They're just

804
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: drowned down by other, much bigger effects, and so in

805
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: order to reveal them, you need to remove those effects.

806
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: It's like if somebody's whispering the secrets of the universe

807
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: but really really quietly, and you can't hear it because

808
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: your neighbor is pumping some crazy death metal. In order

809
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: to hear you have to isolate yourself from all that noise.

810
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: So in the same way, these experiments are set up

811
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: really cleverly, sort of stimilate to how ligo is done,

812
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: to be isolated from everything else, so that you're measuring

813
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: the right thing, this tiny little effect that you're looking for,

814
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: and not being drowned out by the other much bigger

815
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: effects that are more common.

816
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: M Okay. So then you're saying that to maybe discover

817
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: whether the cymmetron field exists or not, We're gonna take

818
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: two discs. We're gonna place them facing each other, really

819
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: close together but not touching. We're gonna spin one of them.

820
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: And I guess these discs are not perfectly symmetrical, right,

821
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: You're saying that maybe they have like a weight on

822
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: either side.

823
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: Or something for example.

824
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so if you twist one of them, does

825
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: the gravity from that twisting disc make the other disc

826
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: twist as well?

827
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: Well? And the answer to that is definitely yes. And

828
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: the question is by how much?

829
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: Wait, what do you mean? It's definitely yes, but the

830
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: other disc can't be symmetrical in there.

831
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: Neither of them are totally symmetrical. You could think of

832
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: them as like, you know, rods with masses on the ends.

833
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: In practice, what they actually do is discs with holes

834
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: drilled out of them. But either way, it's not totally symmetrical,

835
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: and so gravity will pull on them to try to

836
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: align them.

837
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: Right, and you have to kind of rule out the

838
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: effects and the other effects I might be like maybe

839
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: the static electricity between the two plates, or maybe the

840
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: vander wall forces maybe.

841
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: Exactly, or the tides of the moon or anything. Right,

842
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: everything else is basically bigger than this. You have to

843
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: remove every possible other effect, and then you want to

844
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: bring them closer and closer and closer, so you can

845
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: see how gravity varies with distance, because one big clue

846
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: is to see if we understand how gravity gets weaker

847
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: and stronger as the distances get larger or smaller, because

848
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: that's a crucial prediction of both Newton's and Einstein's theories

849
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: of gravity.

850
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 2: Right, there's like famously, like the the force of gravity

851
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: between like the Earth and the Moon is equal to

852
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: the mass of the Earth, sometimes the mass of the

853
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 2: Moon divided by the square of the distance between the

854
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: two things. Right, m M exactly the square of the distance,

855
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 2: or is it maybe more like the square point two

856
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 2: of the distance?

857
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly? Or maybe does it change when you get

858
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: down to really small scales exactly. Any deviation from the

859
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,720
Speaker 1: classical prediction means something new is happening, gravity works differently,

860
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: which could be the symtron field. In this paper, they

861
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: predict that if you get these two discs really really

862
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 1: close to each other, like tens of microns apart from

863
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: each other, then you could be able to detect the

864
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: effect of the simitron field in.

865
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 2: What way, Like how does the symtron field change gravity?

866
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: The answer to that is very unsatisfying because there's actually

867
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: lots of versions of the simtron field, and so you

868
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: can get lots of different kind of deviations. So basically,

869
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: any deviation from this you could explain using the symotron

870
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: field the.

871
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: Way, meaning like, if you find that the actually gravity

872
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: works is the distance squared point two, then you're saying,

873
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 2: like the point two that's the symmetron.

874
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. The semitron feels like a category of theories

875
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: with a bunch of knobs and parameters, and if you

876
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: find some deviation then you can explain it in terms

877
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: of the symmetron field in almost every sense.

878
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: Couldn't we just be wrong about gravity? Why does it

879
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: have to be a symmetron?

880
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we could just be wrong about gravity, and that's

881
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: one thing people are looking at right And the answer

882
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: could be that we're wrong in some other way, that

883
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: we're wrong about the assumption that space has three dimensions,

884
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: or we're wrong about how gravity works over short distances,

885
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: general relativity breaks down, or this is just an effort

886
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: to explain it in terms of general relativity, because if

887
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: you find this and you measure a certain value, then

888
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: it also explains the accelerating expansion of the universe. So

889
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: that would be kind of.

890
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: But it wouldn't improve or disprove the symmetron. I feel

891
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: like you're saying it could be anything.

892
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, lots of theories in particle physics have that problem.

893
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: Like supersymmetry can predict almost anything. So you find some

894
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: new particle, can you explain it using supersymmetry? Yeah, does

895
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: it mean it's supersymmetry, No, but it's still some new particle.

896
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: So in this case, you find some deviation from gravity,

897
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: if you've ruled out like experimental effects and you know

898
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: gravity's working differently, then yeah, either space is different from

899
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: what you expected, or general relativity is broken, or general

900
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: relativity isn't broken and space has three dimensions, and there's

901
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: some new bit added to it, like the symotron field.

902
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: There's always going to be a variety of explanations. But hey,

903
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: we'd be happy to be in that situation of trying

904
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: to understand some weird deviation of gravity. I see.

905
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: So like, if you find a deviation, maybe a cymotron

906
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: is the reason, but maybe not. And so this is

907
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: just this experiment you just described. It isn't to prove

908
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: the cimitron. It's just to poke holes gravity.

909
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: It's to poke holes of gravity. This experiment is interesting

910
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: in the context of symmetrons because until recently, we haven't

911
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: thought that any of these kinds of theories that have

912
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: like variable additions to Linstein's equations could be tested at all,

913
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: because all of them basically disappeared within the galaxy. So

914
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: this is a cool way to say, oh, look, this

915
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: is one we can actually test. You're right, it's not conclusive,

916
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: but there are other ways we could also test the

917
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: symmetron field, not just in these laboratory experiments of gravity.

918
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: So there might be ways that we could discover it

919
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: in different contexts. So it pulls together into a coherent idea.

920
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 2: But I guess you know, if you put these discs

921
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 2: closer and closer together, aren't you then violating this clues

922
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: that you made about the cinmatron that it has to

923
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: exist in it only exists in empty space.

924
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that does get tricky. It gets tricky experimentally because

925
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: having discs rotating really really close together, like fifty or

926
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: ten microns is hard, and it also breaks down this

927
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: assumption of load density. So then you have to make

928
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: these things lighter. You have to make them smaller and smaller.

929
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: So then you're playing this game of balance because you

930
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: bring them closer together, which makes gravity stronger, and then

931
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: you're removing mass to maintain the load density threshold, which

932
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: makes gravity weaker.

933
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 2: All right, so stay tuned, I guess is the answer here?

934
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: Are they actually doing this experiment? Have they found anything yet?

935
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: People are doing this experiment. It's a whole successive generations

936
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: of these at the University of Washington, where people still

937
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: now they could test gravity. It's centimeter scales and then

938
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: millimeter scales. Now they're pushing down even further, just like

939
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: a whole series of graduate students, each coming up with

940
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: some new clever way to make it slightly more sensitive

941
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: and over decades. It's really establishing the frontier.

942
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 2: And what have they found so far? That gravity does

943
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 2: work as a distance squared or maybe not?

944
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so far they found exactly zero deviations from

945
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 1: Einstein's gravity. Now we'd be talking about the Nobel Prize

946
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: if somebody found a deviation from general relativity. So far

947
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: it perfectly confirms.

948
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: Gr So like the twenty years of PhD thesis, all

949
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: with the same title, Einstein was right Einstein yeh, still right,

950
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: Einstein was right side, Einstein's still going strong.

951
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's true. We keep confirming Einstein. We keep

952
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: hoping to see a deviation, not because we don't like

953
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: the guy, but because a deviation from the theory is

954
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: an opportunity to learn something. It gives theorists an opening

955
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: to add new bells and whistles to the theory that

956
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: might also correspond to bells and whistles in the universe.

957
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: Hmmm, all right, well let's talk about that then, Like,

958
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: if we do this cover the symtron and the symtron field,

959
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: what would that mean about our understanding of the universe.

960
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: It would mean that general relativity is still right, Einstein

961
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: was right, but that there's this term we have to

962
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: add to these equations that the universe has more than

963
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: just mass and energy density, that there's something else going on,

964
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: this weird symtron field that changes how the universe grows.

965
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: It's like a new conception of gravity.

966
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: Wait, I thought you said gravity would stay the same.

967
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: It's just that we have this new thing called the

968
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: symmetron field.

969
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to overthrow general relativity. The symmetron

970
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: field plays nicely with general relativity, but it does change

971
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: how the universe expands. It would explain basically why that

972
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: expansion is.

973
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 2: Accelerating, because the symotron is the force that would be

974
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 2: pushing the universe to get bigger and bigger.

975
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, the symtron is that field which enters in Einstein's equations,

976
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: which generates this accelerating expansion of the universe.

977
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 2: And that's more satisfying than the constant explanation.

978
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: That would be more satis fine than the constant because

979
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: the constant is totally unexplained. The only explanation for the

980
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: constant is that's just the number. Eat it. That's all.

981
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: There's really nothing there.

982
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: As opposed to that's just the simitron. Eat it.

983
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: Well, the simitron gives us a handle. We could ask

984
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: more questions about it, like why this symmetron field, why

985
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: does it have these numbers in it? Where does it

986
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: come from? How early in the universe did it appear?

987
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: It gives us something to ask about, you know, it's

988
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: more specific.

989
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: Like who came up with that name? Come on, TSK

990
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: not me, that's for sure. You wish it.

991
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: I wish it had been me. Yes, okay, finally I

992
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: admit it.

993
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, all right, Well what else does it say

994
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: about the universe and how it's expanding.

995
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: It could actually have impacts on the way that galaxies form.

996
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: We see galaxies forming and ellipses and galaxies forming in

997
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: spirals in the early universe. As the symmetron field was

998
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: created and then cooled, it could have broken its symmetry

999
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: in different ways between different galaxies, creating these like barriers

1000
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: between them, and those barriers might create like effectively walls

1001
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: between galaxies that are invisible that could affect how galaxies form.

1002
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: And so there's this other prediction that if a symmetron

1003
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: field is there, you could explain why we tend to

1004
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: see fewer satellite galaxies than we expect. So there are

1005
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: predictions we can make inside our laboratories and also how

1006
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: deep within galaxies, and it could just give us another

1007
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: insight into how the universe works, Like what else invisible

1008
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: is out there is shaping our universe?

1009
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 2: Who because the mysteries aren't just in the expansion of

1010
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: the universe, it's also sort of like how the universe

1011
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: ended up the way it is.

1012
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's lots of open questions about the universe, and

1013
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: you know, physicists, just like listeners, like to tie them together. Ooh,

1014
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: what if this mystery is explained by that mystery and

1015
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: I can simultaneously solve a couple of open problems. That's

1016
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: really a juicy idea.

1017
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, what if you're missing cookies we're taken by

1018
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 2: a new particle called the Pikachuu tron.

1019
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: Done Nobel prize, boom a cookie prize and give me

1020
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: ten here?

1021
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 2: All right, Well, another interesting idea in the field of

1022
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: physics and particle physics that has consequences not just at

1023
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: the microscopic level, but maybe at the biggest level of

1024
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: them all the entire universe. How it came to be

1025
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: and what keeps it growing bigger and bigger.

1026
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: And if this whole process of theoretical physicists inventing crazy

1027
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: emails and whistles staff to the universe seems a little

1028
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: out of hand or bonkers to you. Then, don't take

1029
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: that as criticism. Take it as inspiration to think of

1030
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: your own crazy ideas about the universe. You're in good company.

1031
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm a cartoonist. I think of crazy

1032
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: things all the time.

1033
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: Well, you have a PhD in podcast physics, so.

1034
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, that's right. It's not a PhD. It's a pod.

1035
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: I have a pod in podcast physics. All right, Well,

1036
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See

1037
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: you next time.

1038
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

1039
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, This, Org, Instant,

1040
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1041
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: and Jorge explain The Universe is a production iHeartRadio. For

1042
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1043
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.