1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati this week Athens. Aqueducts and 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: urban architecture. Cities can be a climate solution densely packed 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: places with good public transport, effective healthcare, and plenty for 4 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: everyone to do. Add in clean energy and they become 5 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: carbon efficient centers. Cities can also be a climate disaster. 6 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: Lack of vegetation, big concrete buildings, and poor airflow create 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: hot zones that can kill during extreme heat events. All 8 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: city dwellers have experienced this urban heat island effect. You 9 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: can feel it when you leave the city. It's just 10 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: much cooler. It's not a huge problem until it is. 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: Europe is in the middle of its second life threatening 12 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: heat wind of the summer. 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: It hit one hundred degrees in London one hundred and 14 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: nine in Paris. 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: Some forecasts have predicted temperatures in Delhi could reach a 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 3: record breaking forty six degrees celsius this week, and authorities 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 3: have issued in alert and asks vulnerable people to avoid 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 3: the outdoors. 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 4: In Japan, we've been telling about the unprecedented heat wave 20 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 4: this week that's got many worries about the possible shortage 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 4: of electricity to keep the air conditioners. 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: Going during heat waves, cities can be up to fifteen 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: degrees celsius warmer than surrounding regions. It's an issue faced 24 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: by all major cities around the world. As we warn 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: the planet and more of us move to cities, it's 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: going to get worse. By twenty fifty, nearly one thousand 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: cities will see their average summer highs reach or surpass 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: thirty five degrees celsius. That's tripled the number of cities 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: experiencing those temperatures today, which is where my guest today 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: comes in. Eleni Mirivili is the first Global Chief Heat Officer, 31 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: appointed by the United Nations Habitat and the Adrian Arst 32 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation Resilient Center. She works with other Chief Heat 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: Officers in countries such as the US, Sierra Leone, and 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: more recently Bangladesh. I sat down with Eleni to find 35 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: out how these newly created positions are making cities more resilient, 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: why she considers modern cities to be death traps, and 37 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: how cities can be redesigned. 38 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 2: To cope with extreme key. 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: So you are the global Chief Heat Officer. That's kind 40 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: of a unique job title. Where did this journey start 41 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: for you? 42 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: I started working in cities. I was elected into city 43 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 2: government in the city of Athens and I worked as 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: a Deputy Mayor for Urban Nature and urban Resilience. At 45 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: the same time, we were developing in Athens and resilience 46 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: strutsrategy and it was a beautiful process that we did 47 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: through the resilien Cities network. And this whole process kind 48 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: of made it clear that the main challenge for Athens 49 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: is extreme heat. It became more and more clear to 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 2: me as I was participating and working in different city 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: networks around the world that cities were not really talking 52 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: enough about extreme heat and weren't preparing enough about extreme heat. 53 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: This is why I started working together with the arch 54 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 2: Rock Resilience Center, which is really focusing on heat resilience. 55 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: I brought them together with the City of Athens and 56 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: so I was appointed the first Chief Heat Officer in Athens, 57 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: which was the first for Europe and the second globally. 58 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: The very first chief Heat Officer was in Miami, and 59 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: it basically attests to the fact that we really need 60 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: to pay attention to heat, especially in urban centers, because 61 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: this is something that our cities are not made for 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: and our bodies most of the planet. Very population lives 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: in cities are not really made for it. 64 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: And we think about global warming and we hear numbers like, well, 65 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: let's keep it below one point five degrees celsius or 66 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: two degrees celsius, and you know, we're already at one 67 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: point one degree celsius. Seem like small numbers, but the 68 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: way they manifest is that in cities during heat waves, 69 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: you can have the temperature of a city big ten 70 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: or fifteen degrees celsius higher than surrounding rural areas. That 71 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: is how extreme things have become. And the most recent 72 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: occurrence of that kind of heat is we learned that 73 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: this summer in Europe, heat waves killed fifteen thousand people. 74 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 2: It's staggering. We knew that there were several thousand people 75 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: that died this summer in Europe because of the extreme 76 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: heat and drought, but it's shocking to hear of the 77 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: number fifty in thousands. One thing that it's important to 78 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: know is that there are hearts of the world that 79 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: are heating faster than other parts of the world. So 80 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: we know that Europe is actually heating up twenty percent 81 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: faster than the rest of the planet. But also we 82 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: know that the zone around the equator is really heating 83 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: up almost twice as fast as the rest of the world. 84 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: So again we have great inequities. The other aspect of 85 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: your question had to do with cities. So cities are hotspots. 86 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: Cities are hot spots because our cities are build wrong. 87 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: Are build wrong because we thinking of the fact that 88 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: we have all the fossil fuels in the world to 89 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: heat and cool our cities as much as we wanted, 90 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: we really stopped thinking about using the wisdom that architecture 91 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: and urban planning had used for years and years before. 92 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: We had all these tricks that had slowly developed in 93 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: our cultures, the hot cultures, and we kind of forgot 94 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: them because we had fossil fuels. Dealing with concrete and 95 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: cement and asphalt and glass and steel and all these 96 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: things are terrible for the new climate era because all 97 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: these materials absorb heat during the day and they lock 98 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: it in and then they radiated during the evening. This 99 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: is really significant. You were talking basically about the urban 100 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: heat island. The urban heat island is this difference, which 101 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: you said could be up to ten or fifteen degrees 102 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 2: cels use between the center of the city in relation 103 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: to the outskirts of the city. These areas can be really, really, 104 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: really cooler, and if you're actually in a bus or driving, 105 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 2: you can feel it. As you drive out of the city, 106 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: suddenly you know your body feels different, and the difference 107 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: can be incredible. So but even if a difference is smaller, 108 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: like even if we're talking about a difference to four 109 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: degrees or three degrees, it could mean the difference between 110 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 2: life and death. The centers of our cities are cities 111 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: the way they're built today are death traps. 112 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: Because of cities as like thriving centers where the most 113 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: exciting things are happening. You can get the best jobs, 114 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: it's got more money, you can go and enjoy yourself. 115 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: And you're calling them death. 116 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: Drives, Well, you're right. Cities are beautiful and amazing, and 117 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: I love cities. I mean, cities are dynamic and full 118 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: of life and full of solutions and opportunities. And then 119 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: when you have a heat wave, they empty out. Everybody 120 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: hides into their own houses or indoors and the public spaces, 121 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: which is where the city lives and where the dynamism 122 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: of the city and the beauty of the city is 123 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: kind of disappears. This addresses the fact that heat actually 124 00:07:55,320 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: affects economies and affects well being beyond on health. But 125 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: let's start with health. So health is the main and 126 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: the first impact of heat. We call hit the silent 127 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: killer because of all the extreme climate events that are 128 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: linked to climate change, heat is the number one killer 129 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: and people still don't know this. Decision makers and policy 130 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: makers do not understand that heat is really what we 131 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: have to focus on because we lose more people from 132 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: heat than from any other thing, and the other things 133 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 2: are more dramatic. So the media, exactly, you have like. 134 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: Photographs of all these major events, and people realize their devastations, 135 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: but when heat kills, there are no photos to be 136 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: taken exactly. Tend to not publish photos of death exactly. 137 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: And also there's a time lag between the heat wave 138 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: and the time that we know the data of who 139 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: were the victims of the heat. So that's another problem, right, 140 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: And there has been a lot of underreporting of heat 141 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: related mortality and morbidity because often people go to the 142 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: hospital and they have like a heart attack or they 143 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: have a stroke, and nobody reports that it was really 144 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: hot today, and probably the death or the problems that 145 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: these people is having is related to heat. But we 146 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: know that heat affects the body in multiple ways, and 147 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: we still have a lot to learn from it, but 148 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: we know that it's very much underreported. The other thing 149 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: that's underreported is work related injuries. In the United States. 150 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: A report came out last year that looked at eleven 151 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: million cases of work related injuries and over I think 152 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: ten years, and they correlated it with the heat of 153 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 2: the days where the injuries happened, and they found out 154 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: that the correlation is extraordinary between as soon as heat rises, 155 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: people start having accidents in their jobs because they lose cousent, 156 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: they get dizzy, they are tired, et cetera, et cetera. 157 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: That makes sense. I mean, this has happened to all 158 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: of us at some point where you've got too hot 159 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: and are not able to function as exactly lomly do exactly. 160 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: And you know what is interesting but again not surprising, 161 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: is that the low paying jobs are the ones that 162 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: have the highest kind of injuries related to them. And 163 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: there is a conjecture which I think is really interesting 164 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 2: that the people with the lowest paying jobs they don't 165 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: have a cooling. They are also dealing with energy poverty, 166 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: and they don't have the capacity of cooling themselves during 167 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: the night, so they don't sleep well, so they go 168 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: to work really tired, so it makes them even more 169 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: prone to having it. 170 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: Now, you were in Athens, in a relatively rich country, 171 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: and you found ways to try and adapt to heat, 172 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about those solutions. I come from India. 173 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: I grew up in the western part of India, and 174 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: dealing with heat over there when you don't have the 175 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: ability to buy is very different from what happens in 176 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: rich countries. So can we just talk about the solution 177 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: sets for how we can deal with heat if you 178 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: have the money and if you don't have the money. 179 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 2: In Athens, even though it's kind of like at the 180 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: bottom of the global north, the first thing that we did, 181 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 2: and we kind of think that other cities should do 182 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: and can do, is do a heat map. We have 183 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 2: to figure out where are the hot spots, where are 184 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: the hottest parts of the city. Usually it's the poorest parts, 185 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: the poorest neighborhoods, and the neighborhoods have no trees, and 186 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: that they have the worst infrastructure and housing conditions. It 187 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: could be a map that is a quick map, but 188 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: usually from satellite data you can get some sense, even 189 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: if it's not very granular, you can get some sense 190 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: of where are the parts of your city that are 191 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: really suffering, and then you have to start figuring out 192 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: what are the cheapest solutions and the most effective solutions 193 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: or cooling those parts of the city. 194 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the solutions. What are the ways 195 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: in which you can cool cities? 196 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: All right? You said that when you are living in 197 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: a relatively rich country, or you're like a middle class 198 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: or upper middle class person, at least you can afford 199 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: air conditioning. But air conditioning is not going to it 200 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: can't get us out of this. This is not a 201 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: solution because air conditioning not only is a very egotistical 202 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: way of cooling yourself down because it actually pumps hot 203 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 2: air out of the public space, so you're heating up 204 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: the public space, but it also sucks a lot of energy, 205 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: so it's an incredible consumer of energy. So the projection 206 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 2: is that by twenty fifty, we're going to have three 207 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: times as much demand for electricity that is related to 208 00:12:54,080 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: cooling living spaces. This means that we are going to 209 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: need just for cooling our living spaces, the same amount 210 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: of electricity that all of India and all of China 211 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 2: are today consuming for everything that they do in a year. 212 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: That's kind of taggering. It's staggering, and it's I'm afraid 213 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 2: that when we're talking about mitigation and we're putting our goals, 214 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 2: our mitigation goals, I don't think people are taking into 215 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: consideration the demand for air conditioning. And this is really 216 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: really serious because it's going to blow us out of 217 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: the water as far as our projections are concerned. So 218 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: we should use air conditioning, but we should use it 219 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 2: very carefully, especially for the most vulnerable populations, because it's 220 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: a matter of life and death. If you get somebody 221 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: who's an old senior person, which is our main vulnerable community, 222 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: often people that live alone that do not have people 223 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: to check in on them, we often lose those people 224 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: from heat. If we can get them to an air 225 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: conditioned space, that's life saving. So we need air conditioning. 226 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: We have to understand that air conditioning is not gonna 227 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: be a solution. It's a fool's concept if we think 228 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: that we can air condition ourselves out of this. That's 229 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: why city governments are important and national governments. We need 230 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: to put in solutions that are generally cooling the city. 231 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: The cities have to cool themselves down, find ways to 232 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: pull them down. 233 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean, one that comes to mind, which lots of 234 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: people have talked about, is planting lots of trees, is 235 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: creating green space, is allowing more air to flow freely. 236 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: Right, and bringing water elements to the surface. A lot 237 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: of like having water on the surface in as many 238 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: ways as you can. So you can have water bodies, 239 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: water bodies, or water sprinklers, or you know whatever, depending 240 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: on if you have a very humid heat or not. 241 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: So if you have a very dry heat, you should 242 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: have a lot of water elements as many as you can. 243 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: For example, in Notathing's we've totally covered all of the 244 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: rivers and streams that we have. It's all cemented in. 245 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: We don't have anything no water in the surface, and 246 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: we don't have for some reason, we don't use these 247 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: nice sprinklers where kids go and play and in kids playgrounds. 248 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: We should. It's the perfect climate to have water coming 249 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: up entrees. So the water and trees together really can 250 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: lower temperatures incredibly, up to six even seven degrees celsius. 251 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: We can lower temperatures. 252 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: And one of the ideas you were pursuing was to 253 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: try and use the ancient aqueducts that exist in Athens 254 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: and bring in water to try and cool the city. 255 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: Tell us about that. So one thing is to map 256 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: it out, see where the problems are and where vulnerability 257 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: is and exposure. The second thing is to find really 258 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: backup systems. Where are your water sources. How can you 259 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: make sure that you use your water sustainably and you 260 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: don't spend it, and you make sure that you find 261 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: more circularity in the ways that you use your water, 262 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: because water is the beginning and the end of everything. 263 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: In order to have plants, you need water. In order 264 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: for people to survive, we need water everything. Water is 265 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: like really what we're going to be needing and what 266 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: we're probably going to be fighting for like in the 267 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: near future. So this is really important for cities to 268 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: figure out the resources as far as water is concerned. 269 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: So in Athens, we figured that we have this ancient 270 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: aqueduct which was built in Roman years in one hundred 271 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: and fifty eight D that is twenty four kilometers engineering miracle. 272 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: It is all underground, all underground that moves water from 273 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: the outskirts of the city into the center of the city. 274 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: And still today it has a lot of water in 275 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: it and we don't use this water. It's water that 276 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: is really good quality, so we can use it for 277 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: irrigation and other non potable uses. And so we have 278 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: a whole plan of tapping into this water and creating 279 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: more green spaces and a whole big green corridor which 280 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: traverses eight different municipalities in the whole metropolitan area. And 281 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: with the Urso Resilient Center, we're actually doing a whole 282 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: collaboration with this project to have specific guidelines for cooling. 283 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: So the trees that are planted, we are checking out 284 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: what are the resilient trees, not for today, but for 285 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: three decades, four decades from now, when the heat is 286 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: going to be worse, How can we use water in 287 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: the most effective ways to bring temperatures down. And also materials, 288 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: what are the best materials. So this is the big 289 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: project that's called the Adrian Aqueduct Cooling District or cooling Corridor. 290 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: There's another solution set which came from studying how societies work. 291 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: So one of the iconic heat death study is showing 292 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: how old people in Chicago died in areas whether there 293 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: was more social disconnection or really loneliness compared to other 294 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: parts where there were more social connections and thus people 295 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: were able to keep an eye out for the vulnerable 296 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: and take care of them during heat events. Coming from India, 297 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: where you know, typically families are large and they live 298 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: in the same households, there is just an automatic concern 299 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: for older people living in the same household and heat 300 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: deaths typically, even though they are under reported, tend to 301 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: be lower in those hot countries because of those social connections. 302 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: That feels like solution that won't just help reduce heat debts, 303 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: but improve social cohesion. 304 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: Social cohesion is a number one issue for resilience. You're 305 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: absolutely right. All the data show that, you know, if 306 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 2: we have social cohesion, it actually amounts for much more 307 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: than other types of infrastructural support that we can bring to, 308 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: let's say, in neighborhoods. I think of dealing with heat 309 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: in three big kind of pillars. One pillar has to 310 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: do with a way awareness. Awareness raising is because heat 311 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: is a silent killer, a big part of it and 312 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: is to advocate for it and to kind of make 313 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: it clear that heat exposure is dangerous, especially in hot 314 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: environments like Greece or India where we've been dealing with it. 315 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 2: A lot of the people don't take it seriously. They think, oh, 316 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: you know, it's another heat wave, but it's not. And 317 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 2: more and more we realize it. They are longer, more intense, 318 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 2: and more frequent, and they're really really deadly. So this 319 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: is one thing. And what we did in Athens is 320 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 2: that we created the categorization system categorizing of heat waves, 321 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: and in Seville we work together with with our center. 322 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: Again they supported us with this categorization system. They also 323 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: did naming of heat waves, which also both the categorization 324 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: and the naming can really create a really significant change 325 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 2: of the awareness of people and the capacity of media 326 00:19:59,200 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: to communicate. 327 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: We know from storms and hurricanes which do have names, 328 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 1: we find that makes it easier to talk about a 329 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: particular event that is going to happen. 330 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I really really like this idea of the 331 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: fact that you know, when we are thinking of a 332 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: hurricane and we have a category four or a category 333 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: five hurricane, you never think of picking up the phone 334 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 2: and ordering a pizza because you never can You can't 335 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 2: even imagine a guy delivering it in a hurricane, but 336 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: we never think of that when we have a heat 337 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: wave because there are no categories and there are no 338 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: data right to tell you that, you know, don't get 339 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 2: anybody to come to your house right now because it's 340 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: a deadly heatwave. So categories and naming are really important. 341 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: And whether you are in India or whether you are 342 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: in Athens, you always have universities and the meteorological community 343 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: and the research community that can always put into effect 344 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: a really robust categorization system. This is like the awareness part. 345 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: The second one is preparedness, which is like how do 346 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: you make sure that you protect the most vulnerable. And 347 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 2: this is like an aspect that has to do with 348 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: early warning systems. The Secretary General of the UN Guteres 349 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: talked about the need to create early warning systems for all. 350 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: So this is part of creating the possibility of people 351 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 2: to get alerted to what is going on. And this 352 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: really links very well with the categorization, but also to 353 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: set conditions to protect people, like you said before, with 354 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 2: places that are air conditioned for now at least, yeah, 355 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: that's true. 356 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean now you walk around in major cities and 357 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: you'll find cooling centers that's right. And they tend to 358 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: be typically places like libraries where people congregate, but they 359 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: could be molds, they could be other large spaces like 360 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: in your sports centers, which can be the places where 361 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: if you don't have access to cooling during a heat wave, 362 00:21:59,240 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: you can go. 363 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: Really cool parks with water running through them. But yeah, 364 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: this is like a really important issue, and we have 365 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 2: to figure out cities issues of transportation to these places 366 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: because it's difficult often for the older people or the kids, 367 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: or women with children, or people that are sick, etc. 368 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: That have pre existing conditions to go to the place. 369 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 2: So this is an important thing. And the other thing 370 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: is which is really significant, which you touched on, is 371 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: social cohesion. So the neighborhood in Greece also, the neighborhood 372 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: is still a good, viable kind of social nucleus, let's say, 373 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: so having people checking in on people in your building, 374 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: like knocking on doors, thinking of the older people, thinking 375 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: of you know, women living alone with kids and stuff, 376 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: and checking in on them on heat waves and creating 377 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 2: a network of people that support you is crucial, crucial, 378 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: and it doesn't cost anything. And the final thing, the 379 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: third pillar, has to do with designing cities and figuring 380 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: out ways to make cities both the public space but 381 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: also the build sector cooler. 382 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: After the break. Each city has its own set of 383 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: challenges when it comes to tackling extreme heat. So how 384 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: are chief heat officers around the world working together to 385 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: come up with solutions? What we're talking about here is 386 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: mostly solutions. We know the problem, the problem's getting worse. 387 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: But it feels to me that every sector we look into, 388 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: there are all these solutions that if you think through them, 389 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: we can apply, and we can apply pretty cheaply. We 390 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: can apply at scale in many, many parts because there 391 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: are simple principles that apply regardless of what kind of 392 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: capacity you have in your city, whether you're in a 393 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: developing country or a developed country. And so it's interesting 394 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: that there is a global role now for a chief 395 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: heat officer. How many chief heat officers are there in 396 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: cities and how are you collaborating? 397 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 2: Right now? There are seven chief heat officers, and there's 398 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: one in Miami. In Athens, there's a brilliant woman that 399 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: is a colleague of mine who's going to be stepping 400 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 2: in as a chief hit officer in Athens. As I 401 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 2: moved to the global chief hit officer role. There's an 402 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: incredible friend and colleague in Free Town, Sierra Leone, who 403 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 2: is also a chief hit officer. Another incredible woman in 404 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 2: San Diego de Chile, Christina Sourea is in Monterey, Mexico. 405 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 2: And we have two women that are also in Melbourne, Australia. 406 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: So all together we are seven chief hit officers women. Oh, 407 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: and Marta Segura who's also in Los Angeles. It's all women. 408 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 2: The truth is that there's a lot of women in 409 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: the adaptation and resilience fields in climate change. You can 410 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: you can really see a difference in the mitigation and 411 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: the adaptation world. The mitigation has many more men in it, 412 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: and the adaptation and resilience historically and now still has 413 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: a lot of women in it. 414 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: This is kind of true in finance too. There are 415 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: a lot of men in investment banking and there are 416 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: a lot of women in esg Oh. 417 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: Interesting, it tends to fall into our lapse. They're kind 418 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: of trying to clean up the message that the men 419 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: are making. 420 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 3: Right. 421 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is a role that needs to 422 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: be done more. Yeah, well, but that's just seven cities. 423 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: Heat Waves are happening in a lot of cities. Why 424 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: are there not more chief Heat Officers. 425 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: Oh, there will be. I'm certain that there will be. 426 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: Since recording this interview late last year, and eighth Heat 427 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: Officer busch Afren was appointed in April to represent not 428 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: Dhaka in Bangladesh. 429 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: Heat affects a lot of different parts of a city. 430 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 2: You have to have a cross sector or response to it, 431 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: from heat to public spaces and the infrastructures to social 432 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: services and welfare services and health kind of tied into that, 433 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: as well as the economics of the city. Like for example, 434 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 2: for us in Athens tourism, we have to figure out 435 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 2: issues that have to do with our visitors and how 436 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: we can make sure that we create experiences that are 437 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: okay for our visitors during keat waves or extremely hot 438 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: days for example. So it's great to have a person 439 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: to coordinate not only within the city the different departments 440 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 2: that have to talk to each other to put together 441 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: plans and responses to heat, but also to bring in 442 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 2: the different stakeholders that you have to bring in, especially 443 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: strategic kind of different people from the private sector, from 444 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: the research and universities, from other levels of government, from 445 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 2: the communities at different neighborhoods, especially the stakeholders from the 446 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: vulnerable populations, to talk to them to understand where the 447 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: problems are and what the solution should be. So this 448 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: is a crucial role in cities that I think more 449 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: and more cities will take on. It's already happening, but 450 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 2: these chief hit officers are kind of strategically located, one 451 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 2: in each continent or two in each continent, and we 452 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: are also talking with each other, sharing information, figuring out 453 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: what the problems are and what the challenges are, what 454 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: we could do to scale things up, and most importantly, 455 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: how to finance things. How will we finance adaptation and resilience. 456 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: Are there places that just cannot adapt to heat, Yes, 457 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: and we have. 458 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: To think about finding spaces that are better for people 459 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: to live in. Sometimes you really have to cut your losses, 460 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: like with sea level rise. I mean, we can't save 461 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: all the cities from sea level rise. We have to 462 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 2: really think and I know it's terrible and it's one 463 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 2: of the worst discussions because nobody wants to move, but 464 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: we have to really think of creating capacity for people 465 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: to move in areas that are less less hot or 466 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: less affected by sea level rise and we could do it. 467 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it's possible, but it's painful and it's difficult, 468 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 2: and it takes it's a difficult political decision, and a 469 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: lot of politicians don't want to take the burden of that. 470 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: And exa of these places where you cannot adapt our 471 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: places where it's not about daytime high temperatures, it's really 472 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: about nighttime high temperatures. 473 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: Those are the deadly ones. 474 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: Because there is no moment in the day that the 475 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: body has had a chance to cool down. 476 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: That's so true. That's the deadly part is nighttime temperatures, 477 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: not daytime temperatures, because the body can handle daytime temperatures 478 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: much better if it has rested and has found an equilibrium, 479 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: a balance of its temperatures internal temperatures during the night, 480 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 2: during sleep when it supposed to rest. If you don't 481 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: do that, then your body goes into a total whack 482 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: and your organs are starting to malfunction. 483 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: I always find it really difficult to try and explain 484 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: wet bulb temperature. This is the idea where you combine 485 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: the temperature that you can see on a temperature scale 486 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: with the humidity that is measured by meteorological departments and 487 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: communicated that way, and when the wet bulb temperature rises 488 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: about thirty five degrees celsius, that's when the extreme deadly 489 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: heat waves typically happen. Is there a better way in 490 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: which you can communicate wet bulb temperature where heat and 491 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: humidity could be understood. 492 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: I think people know it. People know it but in 493 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 2: their in their in their skins, as we say, which 494 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: is literal and writing, because you're sweating, and the problem 495 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: with the wet bulb temperature, the reason it becomes deadly 496 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: is because you can and sweat, right, so your body 497 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: cannot cool because it can't use sweat to evaporate so 498 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: that it lowers the temperature. And so we basically lose 499 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: that capacity, which is one of the main capacity that 500 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: we have. Because our skin is so big in surface area, 501 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: it actually manages to cool our bodies through sweating. And 502 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: if we can't do that, then we don't really have 503 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 2: much more that we can do. So you have to 504 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: do other things to cool yourself down. And there are 505 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: other things that you could do, like putting cold compresses 506 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: around your neck for example, really helps to cool the 507 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: body down. Creating a breeze in your house even with 508 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: a little fan, but also putting like ice cubes behind 509 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: or in front of the fan. And if you look 510 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: on YouTube, you can find like amazing solutions about how 511 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: to create cooler things. People in the night, they wet 512 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: the sheep and they sleep in sheets that are right. 513 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: But again, if you're talking about actually, if you're talking 514 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: about heat that has to do with humidity, then you 515 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: that doesn't help at all. 516 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: Heat is a terrifying subject because I know the numbers 517 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: and I know the figures, and I have read enough studies. 518 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: But I think this conversation was really good in just 519 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: the sheer amount of solutions available to deal with heat. 520 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: So thank you for coming on the show. 521 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: Oh thank you. I agree heat. This is why I'm 522 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: doing what I'm doing, because this is what I'm most 523 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: scared of. I'm terrified by heat. As you said, that's 524 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: why I wake up every day feeling like I'm doing something. 525 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: You're going to change your job title to chief cool Officer. 526 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: No, No, chief cool officer, No, I think a Chief 527 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: Heat Officer is more apt. Thank you. Thank you. 528 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: As urban populations, boom cities will need to work out 529 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: not only how to accommodate all those people, but to 530 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: do it in a way that is more resilient to 531 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: extreme weather events, including heat waves. There are a few 532 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: quick fixes, and this kind of adaptation will need planning 533 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: now to meet the demands of the future. Thanks for 534 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: listening to zero. Each week, Bloombergreen publishes hundreds of stories 535 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: about the climate crisis and its solutions, including a recent 536 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: one by my colleague Olivia Ruddguard about how a medieval 537 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: town outside London is dealing with coastal erosion. 538 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 4: So I recently went to Norfolk, which is on the 539 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: east coast of England, to visit a town called Haysbro 540 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 4: which has been really badly affected by coastal erosion. It's 541 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 4: a really really historic town. It's been there for hundreds 542 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 4: of years and it's built on a really soft cliff, 543 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 4: so it's really being badly affected by the impacts from 544 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 4: the waves. One really interesting way you can see this 545 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 4: impact is actually if you go on Google Maps on 546 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 4: street view, there's a particular road that in two thousand 547 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 4: and nine you can sort of see it disappearing into 548 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 4: the distance. People's homes were there, and if you go 549 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 4: to that exact same spot now I went and stood there. 550 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 4: There's just a road close sign and then a cliff. 551 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 4: It's a really interesting illustration of how quickly this process 552 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 4: is happening. I went there because there's been a decision 553 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 4: made to stop defending it been judged to be too expensive, 554 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 4: and I wanted to find out what that's like for 555 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 4: the people who live there. It's a very specific feeling 556 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 4: that you have when your home and your neighbors and 557 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 4: everything is sort of being lost to this inexorable process. 558 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 4: And it's not the only place in the world where 559 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 4: this is going to happen. People living on runnable coastlines 560 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 4: are going to go through similar things, So I wanted 561 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 4: to ask the question what can be done to ameliorate 562 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 4: that situation and make things a little bit easier for people. 563 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: To read Olivia's article and see the photos of the 564 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: disappearing coastline, check out the link we've put in the 565 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: show notes. If you enjoyed this week's episode, please share 566 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: it with a friend or someone who doesn't want their 567 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: ice cream to melt too fast. Zero's producer is Oscar 568 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: Boyd and senior producer is Christine riscoll. Our theme music 569 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: is by Wondering. Special thanks this week to Laura Milan 570 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: and kurapinrim i'm Akshatrati back next week