1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 2: I'm wan Ha and this is the Big Take Asia 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: from Bloomberg News. Today. On the show, an interview with 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: Mahathir Mohammed, Malaysia's longest serving prime minister. Michelle Hussein, an 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: editor at large from Bloomberg Weekend, sat down with mah 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: Their in the offices of his foundation just outside Kuala Lumpur. 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: Mah dear turned one hundred years old this week. 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 3: Michelle asked him about his thoughts on aging and leadership, 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 3: what he thinks Donald Trump's terra for means from Malaysia, 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 3: and what he sees as the way forward in a 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: world that's getting more tense and divided by the day. 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 3: Here's Michelle's edited conversation with former Malaysian Prime Minister mah 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 3: Tir Mohammed. 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: Doctor Marti, your political life has spanned more than six decades, 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: including a comeback to lead your country again at the 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: age of ninety two. In contrast, Joe Biden, a younger 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: man than you, was engulfed by debate about his fitness 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: to lead. What are your conclusions on age and leadership. 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 4: Well, if you don't get any faithal disease, you should 20 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 4: live quite a long time. Of course, you have to 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 4: have some discipline in your way of life. You do 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 4: not get fed, and you do some exercise and keep 23 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 4: your brain busy thinking, talking, discussing, writing, reading. You must 24 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 4: keep the brain active, otherwise the brain loses its capacity. 25 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 4: So A breaches all those things. 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: How do you feel about being one hundred? How conscious 27 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: are you that you are the last of your generation? 28 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 4: In many ways bid frightening? You know, it means that 29 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 4: you are very near, that you are well, you are normal, 30 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 4: and so as time passes, you feel you are coming 31 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 4: to an end. And that's not comfortable. You were is isa, 32 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 4: But then then you have to accept that this inevitable. 33 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 4: You have to go. So while you are still around, 34 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 4: you should do something and not just lie down in 35 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 4: bed and wad for the time. 36 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: And you're certainly proving that in how active you continue 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: to be, including in your public comments on age and leadership. Though, 38 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: are you saying age should be no barrier at all? 39 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: Because when you first left politics in two thousand and 40 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: three at seventy eight, you did think you were too 41 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: old to run for political office again. 42 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I thought that age would affect my capability. 43 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 4: But I find out that is not necessarily in cape 44 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 4: stating if you are relatively healthy, you can function. 45 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: But Joe Biden thought he was perfectly healthy, perfectly able. 46 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 4: Now, of course, some people age earlier. I believe in 47 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 4: working as a way of keeping the mind and body active, 48 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 4: and as you know, if you are not active, your 49 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: capectar shrinks is reduced. 50 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, probably on this believes as you do. He 51 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: hasn't let age stand in his way. 52 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: Well, I think Donald Trump is relatively healthy, but his 53 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 4: attitude is the problem. He has this idea of making 54 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 4: America greed again, and to do that, he feels that 55 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 4: he has a confront the rest of the world, and 56 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 4: that is not a very good strategy. 57 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: Before we talk more about that, I want to go 58 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: back to your early life when the Japanese occupation began 59 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: during World War Two. What do you remember of that time. 60 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 4: Well, we were told that the Japanese were very cruel 61 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 4: people and they are prone to execute people, and naturally 62 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 4: we were very frightened. However, the Japanese when they came in, 63 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 4: they did single out the people who were against them, 64 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 4: mainly the Chinese who supported Chinese war against Japan. But 65 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 4: I was sorry the Chinese. I'm a Malay, and the 66 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 4: Genis have got no problem with malas a few Malays 67 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 4: who were also arrested and executi for things that they 68 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 4: have done. But generally the Japanese rule was not very desirable. 69 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, they were not unduly. 70 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: Oppressive, except as you acknowledge if you were ethnic Chinese. 71 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: Those massacres by the Campetite, the Japanese secret police targeting 72 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: Chinese people, those were atrocities, weren't they. We should not 73 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: gloss over them. 74 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 4: I'm not forgetting the wrong things that they did. But 75 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 4: the fact is that after the war they seem to 76 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 4: change completely. We cannot pull their past against them all 77 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: the time. If we keep on thinking about the past, 78 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 4: the conflicts of the past, and you are affected by this, 79 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 4: you cannot change to a better world. 80 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: But also, it was economically imports possible, wasn't it for 81 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: a country like Malaysia to hold these things against Japan 82 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: because it was the dominant power in Asia. China was 83 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: nowhere economically at that point. 84 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 4: We saw Japan as a good model of how a 85 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 4: country that was devastated by war was able to recover 86 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: in such a short period. And not only recover. At 87 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 4: one time there were number two in the world. We 88 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: thought that we should learn about it, we should copy, 89 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: and we should be able to achieve what they achieve. 90 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: Let's come to the present day then, and the current 91 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: reality since Donald Trump returned to the White House, the 92 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: atmosphere of trade tension and uncertainty. How would you say 93 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: Malaysia and the region Southeast Asia be affected? 94 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 4: Well, you cannot help but be affected by drums policies. 95 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 4: He's against the whole world and to him, by raising 96 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 4: the tariff high, it will stop the goods from being imported. 97 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: But this is not a very good strategy because if 98 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 4: you reached the tariff on important goods, the cost of 99 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 4: those goods coming into your country will be very high. 100 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 4: And if those goods are required for your industries, like 101 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 4: components like microchips, the cost of your product would be higher. 102 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: Are you speaking from your own experience, Because there was 103 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: a time, indeed, for many years when Malaysia's economy was 104 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: built around tariffs on goods coming in and quotas, and 105 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: Malaysia had to reorient that model completely to try and 106 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: industrialize and become more of an export facing economy. So 107 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: if you were speaking directly to Donald Trump, What would 108 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: you say to him? How would you put this message 109 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: across in the punchiest terms. 110 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 4: We tell him that he is wrong. He said, he 111 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: is wrong. He's going to damage America more than the 112 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 4: rest of the world. Of course, the rest of the 113 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 4: world will suffer, but America will suffer more because all 114 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 4: those industries which were set up by Americans outside of 115 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 4: America to take advantage of low course, those industries cannot 116 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 4: come back to America in the short time necessary. So 117 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 4: for some time America would still continue to import these 118 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 4: products with high tariffs. 119 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: And he might say to you, look at the way 120 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: all these countries, including Malaysia, are desperately negotiating with me 121 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: to try and get the tariffs down. He might well 122 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: take that as evidence that they are the ones who 123 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: are going to be badly affected, not America. 124 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 4: Yes, if the asport in the America, but the rest 125 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 4: of the world is not imposing high tariffs. So we 126 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 4: should increase our trade with the rest of the world. 127 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 4: With China, for example, we can increase our trade with China, 128 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 4: and to a certain assent, we can mitigate the effect 129 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 4: of Tim's high tariff by avoiding. 130 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: America and selling more to China. 131 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 4: And selling more to China and the rest of the world. 132 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: Does that have its own complexities? If you end up 133 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: closer to China economically, do you also end up closer 134 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: to China politically. 135 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 4: The fact is that China is a neighbor has been 136 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 4: a neighbor of Malasia for the past almost two thousand year. 137 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 4: We have survived with China being a big power. But 138 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 4: theude of China is different than the edited at Europeans. 139 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 4: The Chinese may invade, but they do not colonize in 140 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 4: the Europeans. The Portuguese when they came here in fifteen 141 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 4: o nine, two years later they came and conquered us. 142 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 4: So we have lived with China all these years, and 143 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 4: we have to accept that China is a powerful nation. 144 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 4: We can't go to war against China. We have to 145 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 4: find somewhere of living with them. 146 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: A powerful nation where ultimate control is with the Chinese 147 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: Communist Party, which is run on an authoritarian system and 148 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: which does destabilize its neighbors, which does make territorial claims, 149 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: as Malaysia itself has experienced in the South China Sea. 150 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 4: China did not conquer Taiwan. They made use of Taiwan 151 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 4: to get technilogy and investment for China. The relationship was 152 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 4: all right because it's useful to China. 153 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure the Taiwanese will see it that way. 154 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 4: The Chaiwanese have always been very close to China in 155 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 4: terms of investment, in terms of technology. Even the fact 156 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 4: is that if China wanted to, they could have evaded 157 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 4: Taiwan a long time ago. But did you you see? 158 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: I think if I talked to you in a previous 159 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: in a previous time, you would have been more forthright 160 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: about disputes like the Spratley Islands, which in the South 161 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,359 Speaker 1: China Sea, which is one of those areas where Malaysias 162 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: had great difficulty with China. Today, you seem to be 163 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: taking a much more benign view. And I wonder is 164 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: that because of these realities that Southeast Asia is having 165 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: to make a choice and China is the choice that 166 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: is made. 167 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, China claims South china See belongs to China, 168 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 4: but that is their claim. We don't accept their claim. 169 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 4: In fact, although they claim South chenes See, they have 170 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 4: not taken action to show that this is their territory. 171 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 4: They have not stopped ships from passing through or examine 172 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 4: ships or impost restriction in the South China. 173 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: But they do military exercises which create a lot of alarm, 174 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: live fire drills. These are not necessarily the actions of 175 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: a good and peaceful neighbor. 176 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 4: Well, when you send warships to South Chenan, see what 177 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 4: do you expect China to do? 178 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: American warships? You mean yeah. 179 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 4: And when you purposely make a visit to Taiwan and 180 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 4: told Taiwan that you will be invaded by. 181 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: China, you mean Nanci Pelosis. 182 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: When she went there for the good reason she went there, 183 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 4: and immediately after that, tension rules. And when tension rules, 184 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: then America says Taiwan, you must rearm and they had 185 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 4: wide weapons from America. So the tension has been increased 186 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 4: by that visit. 187 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: In several parts of the world, we see not just 188 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: tension but outright conflict, whether it is Ukraine, Gaza, Israel, 189 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: and the United States recent strikes on Iran. You've seen 190 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: a lot in your time, including living through the Second 191 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: World War. What do you see as you look around 192 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: and see that level of conflict in the world. 193 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 4: They will always be conflicts, but conflicts are not necessarily 194 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 4: resolved through confrontation through wars, you can negotiate, You can 195 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 4: even go to the workhord and get a decision. Now, 196 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 4: the rest of the world seems to think that any 197 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 4: conflicts should be resolved by war, and if there is confrontation, 198 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 4: you should provoke countries into active action, as happened with Russia. 199 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: You see Ukraine as a provocation. 200 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 4: You mean, yeah, there are many other countries which were 201 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 4: allied to Russia by word freed by Grover Shop. They 202 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 4: joined NATO. Russia did not object, But Ukraine has a 203 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 4: long border with Russia, and when Ukraine joints NATO, it 204 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 4: brings NATO right up to Russia. And naturally this is 205 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 4: not something Russia can accept. 206 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: But as you've suggested, there are different ways to respond 207 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: to things. And annexing part of another country's territory as 208 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: Russia has done, crossing international borders to invade with tanks 209 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: as it did three years ago, Ukraine would say this 210 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: is a war for its survival. And in the Middle East, 211 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: Israel would say that it has acted in self defense 212 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: against Tamas. 213 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 4: When a country is actively carrying our genocide and says 214 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 4: that Geno said is a way to defend this country, 215 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 4: that is not acceptable. 216 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: What do you think then, of the Arab countries, Muslim 217 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: countries like the UAE and Bahrain, who in this entire 218 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: period have maintained their diplomatic relations with Israel. 219 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 4: Well, dear not unite that we have to accept the 220 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 4: fact that the Muslim countries are not united. Each has 221 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 4: got its own policies. But all these things sat when 222 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 4: Palestinian land was ceazed to make Israel. 223 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: Do you accept the idea of two states? Do you 224 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: accept Israel's right to exist as well as advocating for 225 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: Palestinian rights? 226 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, two states would be a good solution at this 227 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 4: moment because there is no way for the Arabs to 228 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 4: do away with Israel. Israel is there. 229 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: May we come to the present day in Malaysia and 230 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: what you hope the country would become by the year 231 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, a fully developed country. It was a goal 232 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: that you set back in nineteen ninety one and it 233 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: hasn't quite been achieved. What do you think of the 234 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: reasons for that. 235 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 4: We were progressing very well. We had certain policies in place, 236 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 4: and the country was growing at a very high rate 237 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 4: seven percent eight percent every year GDP growth. But when 238 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 4: I stepped down. They decided to drop completely the policies 239 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 4: and the strategies that enable Malaysia to grow very fast. 240 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: I wonder, though, Dr Matteir, if you can take some 241 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: responsibility for the fact that Malaysia hasn't fully lived up 242 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: to what you hoped for. Take the idea of race 243 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: based affirmative action policies that privilege the ethnic Malay majority 244 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: your own community. It means privileged access to education, It 245 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: means discounts on housing. It means companies led by ethnic 246 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: Malay citizens have certain access and greater privilege. Is that 247 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: really the right thing to do in the twenty first 248 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: century in a country that should be a meritocracy. 249 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 4: Well, we learn from America. America introduced affirmative action to 250 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: help the blacks catch up with the whites. Here, we 251 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 4: feel the disparity with the Malays and Chinese is dangerous. 252 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 4: It is going to lead to confrontation, maybe violence. And 253 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 4: in fact, in nineteen sixty nine there were rich Rids 254 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 4: because the Malays generally were poor. After independence, the Chinese 255 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 4: were rich, and even politically, the Malay dominance was eroded 256 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 4: because of that. We feel that we should reduce the 257 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 4: disparity between rich and poor within Malaysia and Chinese. That 258 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 4: was why we adopted affirmative action. 259 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: But it creates distortions, doesn't it. It has led to 260 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: a brain drain of talented ethnic Chinese and ethnic Indian 261 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: citizens who don't feel there's a level playing field. And 262 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: I think you yourself have said there will be a 263 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: time to withdraw these policies. Of course, politically they're very 264 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: hard to withdraw when parties need to win elections. 265 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: When you introduce any policy, there will be people who 266 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 4: are not happy, people who are happy. Very few have 267 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 4: left Milasia, even those who have migrated to other countries, 268 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 4: retained their Malasian citizenship because they want to come back. 269 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 4: This is the country that they have been brought up 270 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 4: in and they feel that over time things would resolve. 271 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: In your own life, amongst those you've known leaders across 272 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: the world, who did you admire, you were a contemporary 273 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: of le Kuwan News who made Singapore one of the 274 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: wealthiest nations in the world. Did you envy that? 275 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 4: No? I think my idol is Nelson Mandela. I know 276 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 4: well his level hiddenness is something remarkable. Was the wounded 277 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 4: Asian leader who met him after he was relieved. I 278 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 4: was expecting him to be a very bitter man or 279 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 4: a broken man because he was in jail. He was not. 280 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 4: He was talking about how the blacks and the white 281 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 4: shirt cooperate in order to grow South Africa. That is 282 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 4: something that you don't find in many other leaders. 283 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: You said at the start of this conversation that you 284 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: do feel that the end is not far away, that 285 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: you are prepared for that. How do you actually think 286 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: about that prospect when you've reached a hundred. 287 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 4: I have had almost eighty years of experience in politics 288 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 4: in Malaysia, and during that eighty years, I think many 289 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: of the problems were resolved, not fully, of course, but 290 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 4: I think that my experience would be useful for future 291 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 4: leaders of Malaysia. So I talked to them. I explained 292 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 4: to them what needs to be done, why you should 293 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 4: recognize the problems and analyze it, and then you will 294 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 4: know how to treat them. 295 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: I don't think you've made life easy for your successes 296 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: by continuing to speak as you do. 297 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 4: Life is never easy for anyone, not for me either. 298 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 4: I do what I think is the best thing that 299 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 4: I could do, and I think in a way I 300 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 4: have delivered. One other thing is different of course, but 301 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: I was given an opportunity to do something for this country. 302 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 4: I have put my best effort, and I think to 303 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 4: a certain extent, I have achieved some goals. 304 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: Talcdor Martin Muhammad, thank you very much. 305 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 4: You're welcome. 306 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: This is the Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanh. 307 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: This conversation was part of the Bloomberg Weekend interview We're 308 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: Hoast Michelle Husain speaks tooential voices in politics, business and 309 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: culture from around the globe. You can find an annotated 310 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 2: transcript of this interview with Mahathir Mohammad, as well as 311 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: an archive of past conversations with leaders like Elon musk, 312 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 2: Uk Prime Minister Kiir Starmer and you and aid's executive 313 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: director Winnie Bianima at Bloomberg dot com, slash Weekend or 314 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: in the Bloomberg app Our special. Thanks to Jessica beck 315 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 2: Ed Johnson, Andy Clark and Nettie idayu Ishmael. Thanks for listening. 316 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: Have a great weekend.