Speaker 1: Warning.
Speaker 2: Today's episode contains spoilers for Pluribus episode oneh eight.
Speaker 3: Be warned.
Speaker 2: Oh it is Jason Concepcion and I'm by myself.
Speaker 3: That's because Rosie is not feeling today.
Speaker 2: Get well soon, Rosie, She'll be fun. That's just under
Speaker 2: the weather today. And our super producer, Ian, who is
Speaker 2: our other Pluribus expert, is currently under active cyber attack,
Speaker 2: possibly by an enemy nation state. That's Carmen's theory. Cannot
Speaker 2: connect to the Internet and we've all been there, haven't we.
Speaker 2: So welcome back the x ray vision of the podcast,
Speaker 2: where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics
Speaker 2: of pop culture from my Heart. We're'll bring you three
Speaker 2: episodes a week, plus neis on Saturday. Before we jump
Speaker 2: in a quick product note. This holiday season, we'll be
Speaker 2: shouting a couple of short stopping Steppa episodes. With so
Speaker 2: many great shows and movies coming out this next few months,
Speaker 2: these episodes will help us cover some extra content we
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to get on our normal episode, so
Speaker 2: keep an eye out for those. But first, I'm not
Speaker 2: to solo this purvious episode. Episode eight of season one.
Speaker 2: We open with what I think is going to be
Speaker 2: a important, very short detail that we see in this
Speaker 2: cold open of this episode, which is Manusos, who recently
Speaker 2: impaled himself on a spiny tree in the Darien Gap
Speaker 2: and is now clearly suffering from a very serious bacterial infection,
Speaker 2: among other things, dehydration, et cetera. Is in the hospital
Speaker 2: and we see his blood dripping on the floor. I
Speaker 2: think you've heard us talk about the ian stem cell theory.
Speaker 2: I think the hive mind is going to collect this
Speaker 2: blood and be able and other material as we've talked
Speaker 2: about in our previous Curvous episode, and I think they're
Speaker 2: going to be able to reverse DNA engineer the infection.
Speaker 2: Wait and see. His surgeon greets him and is like, hey,
Speaker 2: how you doing? You passed out? Do you remember anything about?
Speaker 2: Like why you're here?
Speaker 3: Good news.
Speaker 2: You've got a very serious infection, but it's responding well
Speaker 2: to the antibacterials, and you're in bad shape, but.
Speaker 3: We got you on the mend. Just hank tight.
Speaker 2: You got to rest, don't worry about it. Well, Menusless
Speaker 2: is in no state of mind to rest. He pops up,
Speaker 2: grabs a scalpel, presses it to the surgeon's throat and
Speaker 2: is like, I demand to pay for my medical care.
Speaker 3: All the hive mind is like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: it's on us. Like really, we love to do this.
Speaker 2: Ask Carol about it, Ask any of the other survivors.
Speaker 2: We love to just you know, be here to serve.
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, absolutely not, Like I'm paying for
Speaker 2: this shit. There were real people before you guys got here.
Speaker 2: You guys are not real people. I'm not stealing goods
Speaker 2: and services from the real people who you are currently
Speaker 2: holding in your hive mind prison. So the hive mind
Speaker 2: are like, okay, so it's like eight thousand and changed, basically,
Speaker 2: can we write your receipt? And he's like yeah, great.
Speaker 2: He also learns that he's in Panama. In other words,
Speaker 2: he's made it to the other side of the Darien
Speaker 2: Gap and can basically drive all the way up to Albertquerque,
Speaker 2: New Mexico to meet Carol. Carol is at home hosting Zosia.
Speaker 2: She's very nervous. It's quite it's quite charming, it's quite cute.
Speaker 2: She makes some lemonade. Zosha compliments the the authentic Georgia
Speaker 2: o'kee on the wall, and Carol tries to be like, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know I'm just keeping it here, you know, for
Speaker 2: safe keeping, and I'm thinking about collecting other art because
Speaker 2: of She goes on to say, like wild animal attacks
Speaker 2: could be the reason, like that she's gonna collect priceless art.
Speaker 2: But Zosha's like, yeah, don't worry about it, you know,
Speaker 2: we don't care about that. I think it looks great here.
Speaker 2: And then there's like an awkward silence because Carol, you know,
Speaker 2: is still feeling things out. I think it's clearly developing
Speaker 2: feelings for Zosha, but doesn't know how to grapple with
Speaker 2: the reality of that. So Zosha suggests a board game,
Speaker 2: which clearly she knows Carol loves board games. But they
Speaker 2: come up against the problem, or at least Carol does,
Speaker 2: which is, how do you play a game, a game
Speaker 2: of strategy against all of the smartest people currently in
Speaker 2: the world, which the hive mine are. You can't play
Speaker 2: chess because the hive mind is like, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know how many great masters there are in the world,
Speaker 2: but they're all of them, and et cetera, and so on.
Speaker 2: Risk is going to be difficult. And I think this
Speaker 2: is a really interesting metaphor actually for the for the
Speaker 2: challenge that Carol and Manuso's face in trying to rest
Speaker 2: the world back from the Hive mind, if indeed they
Speaker 2: want to do that, because they are up against the
Speaker 2: greatest living human strategists. So they end up playing spit,
Speaker 2: which is a card game kind of akin to war
Speaker 2: that I used to play as a kid, and now
Speaker 2: I can't remember how it's played at all, but it's
Speaker 2: going kind of, you know, it's back and forth game.
Speaker 2: Sosha ask Carol, just kind of making small talk, Hey,
Speaker 2: would you want to see your cousin. Your cousin's part
Speaker 2: of us, you know, and you haven't seen him in
Speaker 2: a while. And Carol's like, no, you know, if he
Speaker 2: didn't ever come to see me before this.
Speaker 4: Why would I want that to happen now?
Speaker 2: And they're having a lot of fun playing this game.
Speaker 2: Carol learns that all the people in Albuquerque will be
Speaker 2: back soon. They they're you know, currently coming back in
Speaker 2: waves and they'll be back in you know, like twenty
Speaker 2: four hours or something like that. And she also puts
Speaker 2: in a request, is oh to powerwash the white letters
Speaker 2: off of her street, and it's again, it's very awkward.
Speaker 2: It's clearly there's a feeling out process here where Carol is,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's cute in a way. Zosha tells
Speaker 2: Carol that, you know, everything is community space now. It's
Speaker 2: basically like the best version of the most idealistic version
Speaker 2: of communism that like Marx and Angles like absolutely dreamed
Speaker 2: about when they were in the throes of imagination. Everybody
Speaker 2: sleeps in the same few locations in order to you know,
Speaker 2: make everything energy efficient and such. Zosha takes them to
Speaker 2: the local sports arena, where Carol sees, you know, a
Speaker 2: bunch of people's sleeping on the arena floor, all kind
Speaker 2: of cuddling together, setting up their blankets. It's all very actually,
Speaker 2: all very nice. There's a dog there. Zosia tells Carol
Speaker 2: that they don't control the dogs, but when the dogs
Speaker 2: a lot of times will stay bonded to the form
Speaker 2: of their former owner, and then the hive mind takes
Speaker 2: care of them, which is all very sweet. So Sha
Speaker 2: asks Carol if she would like to stay overnight at
Speaker 2: the sports arena. Carol is like, no, I think I'm good,
Speaker 2: but then she does end up spending the night. She
Speaker 2: kind of just dozes off in the warmth and acceptance
Speaker 2: of the hive mind. Cuddling with Zoshia, and it's clear
Speaker 2: that Carol is beginning to see different perspectives on the
Speaker 2: Hive mind situation. Yes, it's troubling on many levels, like
Speaker 2: this is an alien invasion, full stop. They're eating people
Speaker 2: like soil it green, full stop. That's really bad. But
Speaker 2: there is something about the warmth, the acceptance, and like
Speaker 2: the overall community that she's seeing that adds a different
Speaker 2: dimension to this experience.
Speaker 4: In Carol is.
Speaker 2: Clearly trying to process all of that, and she goes
Speaker 2: home by herself, opens up her whiteboard, stares for a
Speaker 2: long time at the outline of her latest waikaro novel,
Speaker 2: which you know she may or may not start, but
Speaker 2: then eventually moves the whiteboard aside and writes on her
Speaker 2: list of Hive Mind facts. They eat people underline, underline, underline,
Speaker 2: as if to remind herself, like, yes, this is I
Speaker 2: can see, I can see a different side of it. Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm developing feelings for Zosia. Yes, like peace and the
Speaker 2: lack of any kind of strife is actually quite nice
Speaker 2: to see.
Speaker 3: They eat people.
Speaker 4: Later, Zosha and Carol.
Speaker 2: Go hiking, and Zosha is just like drinking up every
Speaker 2: fact about Carol that Carol shares, and Carol they see
Speaker 2: a train, you know, moving in the distance at the
Speaker 2: at the bottom of the valley there it's an incredible vista.
Speaker 2: And Carol's like, oh, you know, I love trains, and Zosha's.
Speaker 3: Like, what, tell me, tell me more about this?
Speaker 2: What And Carol's like, oh, do you don't know about
Speaker 2: Like I must have told someone at some point during
Speaker 2: my life that I love trains?
Speaker 4: Did I not do that?
Speaker 2: And Zosha in the hive mind don't know this fact,
Speaker 2: And they're clearly there's this one interesting thing where they're
Speaker 2: they know everything right, they have the totality of human experience,
Speaker 2: but they can't really develop any new experiences or new perspectives,
Speaker 2: and they're clearly hungry for it. Like when Carol begins
Speaker 2: to share that, Zosha is like wrapped and and loves
Speaker 2: hearing about this, and Carol basically says, like, part of
Speaker 2: it is because the horn of a train, you know,
Speaker 2: in the distance is the loneliest sound in the world,
Speaker 2: and something about that resonates with her.
Speaker 3: And then a.
Speaker 2: Second later, the train in the distance sounds its horn
Speaker 2: and Carol asks, okay, so like how do you do that?
Speaker 2: Like how does the hive mind? How are you all connected?
Speaker 4: Like what is it?
Speaker 2: And Zosha's basically like, it's kind of like electromagnetic waves
Speaker 2: that the human body gives off and receives but that
Speaker 2: you don't know how to access right now, but like
Speaker 2: the infection has allowed us to access it, so they
Speaker 2: kind of share this wavelength. They then go to get
Speaker 2: massages and Carol is like, how do you experience this massage?
Speaker 2: Because it's like you're giving it, but you're also receiving it,
Speaker 2: and you're giving it to me, but you're receiving it too.
Speaker 2: And Zosha tries to kind of explain what it's like
Speaker 2: to be the hive mind and know at that very moment,
Speaker 2: like how many people were just born and how many
Speaker 2: people have died, and she she's like, there's this guy,
Speaker 2: you know, and I forget where it was, like Bulgaria
Speaker 2: or something, who just was impaled. He'll be fine. But
Speaker 2: like all of this like granular understanding of the outer
Speaker 2: reaches of the hive mind, as if like they were
Speaker 2: fingers and toes on a single body, really freaks Carol out.
Speaker 4: So Zosha kind of sensing that brings it back.
Speaker 2: To the massage, like but basically like the massage feels
Speaker 2: really really good, feels great. Later, Zosha shows Carol where
Speaker 2: the message, the alien invasion message originally came from, and
Speaker 2: she tells her that they think, because again they don't know,
Speaker 2: they have not received any actual information from the hive
Speaker 2: mind message, it's just activated them.
Speaker 4: As a hive mind.
Speaker 2: They think that the original planet where the single came
Speaker 2: from is like one huge ocean. So they all live
Speaker 2: together in like this huge ocean. And Carol finally manages
Speaker 2: to dial in the planet. It's Kepler twenty two B.
Speaker 2: And the hive mind we learn on this planet are
Speaker 2: so and this is what we were, right, folks, so
Speaker 2: taken by the message and so thankful and grateful for
Speaker 2: the unity and love and acceptance that it is given
Speaker 2: them access to that they are they want to pass
Speaker 2: it along. In Zosia's words, they are driven clearly to
Speaker 2: at some point muster the world's resources to build and
Speaker 2: other continent size antenna and spread the message. That's what
Speaker 2: they want to do. Carol is a little chilled by that, clearly.
Speaker 2: She then asks for more pens from Zosia, and so
Speaker 2: she's like, oh my god.
Speaker 3: Because you're writing, we can't wait, like a new way, Cara,
Speaker 3: that would be amazing.
Speaker 2: Carol lies and says, yeah, yeah, yeah, a new wi
Speaker 2: Caral for sure, you know, Carol, And she again she
Speaker 2: does spend a lot of time looking at the white
Speaker 2: Carol board, but then she goes directly to her save
Speaker 2: the world from the hive mind board to write stuff. Later,
Speaker 2: Carol and Zosha played croquet and Zosha is absolutely fucking
Speaker 2: crushing Carol because she is every croquet world champion that
Speaker 2: was alive at the time of the invasion. She talks
Speaker 2: a little bit of trash to Carol, which I found
Speaker 2: quite charming, and I think Carol did as well. Zosha
Speaker 2: asks Carol what was your best writing day?
Speaker 3: Like, like what was that like?
Speaker 1: And why?
Speaker 2: And then Carol's like, I don't know, it's hard to explain,
Speaker 2: and you know, do you really want to know about this?
Speaker 2: And then Zosha's like, I have some place to take you.
Speaker 2: It takes her to a diner that had been closed
Speaker 2: for years but is now back in business and just
Speaker 2: the way that Carol remembered it. And this is the
Speaker 2: place where Carol began her writing journey, trying to figure
Speaker 2: out how to write while having a day job. And
Speaker 2: you know, spending all her days at work and then
Speaker 2: finding a place to write. And this diner was a
Speaker 2: lot about that place. And she talks about that, the
Speaker 2: hive minds eating it up. And then she looks up
Speaker 2: and she's like, yeah, because she's talking about this waitress
Speaker 2: that she remembered, who is so kind and like, without
Speaker 2: knowing it helped her on her journey. And she looks
Speaker 2: up and that there's the waitress. And then she's like, wait,
Speaker 2: holy shit, that's the waitress. And this place burned down,
Speaker 2: didn't it. You You built it from scratch, did you not?
Speaker 2: And Zosha's like, yeah, we built it from scratch. And
Speaker 2: Carol's like, God, I miss those days. But the more
Speaker 2: she thinks about it, and the more she thinks about
Speaker 2: this incredible expenditure of resources that they put into creating
Speaker 2: this experience and bringing back the original waitress, Carol becomes
Speaker 2: disturbed and she immediately she just like leaves with Soosha's
Speaker 2: very confused. The hive mind is like what happened. Sosha
Speaker 2: comes to see Carol at her house and Carol is
Speaker 2: drinking and she's clearly in a weird mood, and she
Speaker 2: wants Zosha to use I as a pronoun, not we,
Speaker 2: and Zosha really has trouble with that, like that's a
Speaker 2: hard thing for the hive mind to grapple with. And
Speaker 2: then Carol begins to interrogate social about the waitress. Where
Speaker 2: was she before all this? What was her life like
Speaker 2: before the invasion? Where was she living when you made
Speaker 2: her come all the way to Albuquerque and do this.
Speaker 2: Zosha doesn't deny that there's a weirdness to this, and
Speaker 2: there's a question of agency and all of this, and
Speaker 2: there's a kind of like chess master moving people around
Speaker 2: as pieces kind of aspect to this, and she doesn't
Speaker 2: deny Carol's charge that actually, you're trying to distract me
Speaker 2: from my mission to stop this infection, to roll it back,
Speaker 2: aren't you, Like that's really what you want to do.
Speaker 2: You're presenting me with all of these nostalgic things that
Speaker 2: make me think of writing, because you want me to
Speaker 2: write a new waikaru and not save the world. And
Speaker 2: Zosha's basically like, yeah, but also like a lot of
Speaker 2: the many people that are part of us love why
Speaker 2: Kara and they can't wait for a new wayikaro. Carol
Speaker 2: basically says listen, I'm never going to give up trying
Speaker 2: to save the world. Okay, are you okay with that?
Speaker 2: Zosh and Zosha answers by going in for a kiss,
Speaker 2: which is like super weird, big big gamble on the
Speaker 2: Hive Mind's part, but it works and they get together physically,
Speaker 2: there's a physical joining. Later, the Hive Mind wakes up
Speaker 2: to find Carol printing stuff out in her office, writing
Speaker 2: and printing stuff out, and Carol asks Oosha to read
Speaker 2: chapter one of the New Wayko and it's ten minutes
Speaker 2: while Carol is waiting for Zosha to finish it. But
Speaker 2: then Zosha comes down and she's like, I'm blown away
Speaker 2: by this.
Speaker 3: Raban is a woman. Now, oh my god, this makes
Speaker 3: so much sense.
Speaker 2: And then they have like such a nerdy and fun
Speaker 2: conversation about, well, how are you going to do it?
Speaker 2: Are you just gonna retck on it where it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, rebooting the series, and Carol insists and this
Speaker 2: is so good that no, like, actually, I can do
Speaker 2: it canonically, I can do it in world using this
Speaker 2: and that mechanism, and they and they're both nerding out
Speaker 2: about the way it could work and how it could
Speaker 2: actually happen.
Speaker 4: And make sense.
Speaker 2: Carol then ask Zosha in the singular, like you as
Speaker 2: the person you as Zosha, what did you what did
Speaker 2: you like to do?
Speaker 3: Like, what were your likes and dislikes? What was what
Speaker 3: were your favorite things?
Speaker 2: And Zosha again kind of like stumbles on the Wei
Speaker 2: versus I, but she manages to share that she loved
Speaker 2: mango ice cream and that there was a guy in
Speaker 2: her city that sold it, and that when she was
Speaker 2: a kid, she would go up to the hill overlooking
Speaker 2: the harbor and she would watch all these ships coming
Speaker 2: in and out, and she was like fascinated with the ships,
Speaker 2: like and fascinated with the idea of who built them
Speaker 2: and where are they going and who lives on them,
Speaker 2: and where are all these places where they're coming to
Speaker 2: and going from. And it's a really beautiful and very
Speaker 2: human kind of remembrance. And in the middle of that
Speaker 2: she freezes, and Carol's like, what's wrong, And then Zosha's like,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have a visitor. And we know now that
Speaker 2: Manusos is coming and we see him crossing the border.
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break and be back with super
Speaker 2: producer Ian, who has figured out his Internet let's talk
Speaker 2: about this episode that I think is one of the
Speaker 2: best of the season and just incredible.
Speaker 4: I mean the turn.
Speaker 2: I think what I most appreciate about it is you
Speaker 2: so vividly understand what Carol is struggling with. It's like
Speaker 2: the loneliness, the depression, the sadness, it's too much. She
Speaker 2: hasn't she's fully cognizant that what's going on with the
Speaker 2: Hive Mind is bad, but she's also seeing new perspectives
Speaker 2: on it that haven't fully convinced her that it's worth
Speaker 2: just forgetting about it and going with the flow.
Speaker 4: But right, there's different levels to it.
Speaker 2: Now, there's this kind of clear warmth and community of
Speaker 2: the Hive Mind, even if it's clearly marshaling itself toward
Speaker 2: the goal of building some other huge antenna, right and
Speaker 2: infecting another world, But there's like a warmth to it,
Speaker 2: there's a community to it. There's the lack of violence,
Speaker 2: the lack of you know, any kind of class race strife.
Speaker 2: All the wars have stopped, and Soosha's really cool and charming,
Speaker 2: Like there is that aspect to it, and it's the
Speaker 2: episode does such a great job of bringing you along
Speaker 2: and making you feel like, Okay, this is fucked up,
Speaker 2: but also like let's just yeah, why not like rest
Speaker 2: and just gather your thoughts in this kind of feeling
Speaker 2: for a while. And that's contrasted with the figure Who's coming,
Speaker 2: and I feel.
Speaker 1: Like the blooming threat of Manuso's and.
Speaker 2: I feel very, very concerned that Manuso's is coming and
Speaker 2: he's gonna kill Zosha. I yes, feel like that's where
Speaker 2: it's going. What are your thoughts about this episode.
Speaker 5: I love the episode for a lot of the reasons
Speaker 5: you laid out, and I think, yeah, that seeing that
Speaker 5: conflict brew within Carol throughout the whole episode is just
Speaker 5: so fascinating and like super relatable, and like, I think
Speaker 5: if I was in a similar situation, I would probably
Speaker 5: be battling with a lot of the same feelings, you know.
Speaker 5: I thought it was interesting because when the episode started,
Speaker 5: I was like, Oh, maybe she really is kind of
Speaker 5: coming around, you know, and is kind of embracing the
Speaker 5: positives of the situation that she found herself in. You know,
Speaker 5: she realizes she doesn't want to be alone, she doesn't
Speaker 5: want to be isolated like that. But then as the
Speaker 5: episode progressed, I was like, oh, Okay, No, she's like
Speaker 5: hitting them with like a little bit of a reverse
Speaker 5: Uno card. You know, she's actually just doing this to
Speaker 5: serve her ultimate goal of still trying to stop them.
Speaker 4: I agree.
Speaker 2: And it's also like she is doing that because clearly
Speaker 2: she's going back and she's you know, writing all the stuff,
Speaker 2: the new intel that she's learned. You know that they're
Speaker 2: bent on spreading the infection that you know, the underlining
Speaker 2: of the fact that they eat people, as in as
Speaker 2: if to say like, don't forget don't forget about that all,
Speaker 2: don't forget about this. Right At the same time, you
Speaker 2: get the sense that the hive mind, I mean, they're
Speaker 2: not just like the greatest chess players, the greatest croquet players,
Speaker 2: they are the most charming people.
Speaker 1: Right. They rizzed her up in this episode. It was crazy,
Speaker 1: and there.
Speaker 2: Is there is this there is this like charming transparency
Speaker 2: to them where they're like, listen, you know, are we
Speaker 2: trying to disharpt you, Yes, but also.
Speaker 3: We love Woycaro and like.
Speaker 2: This is like we're loving this, you know, like the
Speaker 2: way they are hanging on every word when she's talking
Speaker 2: about the trains, and you know that sense that the
Speaker 2: Hive mind. Though they have all the experiences that humanity
Speaker 2: can offer, they can't really generate new ones, right, They
Speaker 2: can't generate other new perspectives, and so they were so
Speaker 2: hungry for this new perspective from Carol. That was I
Speaker 2: think that that is there's something intoxicating about that. And
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that Carol is going to forge get
Speaker 2: about her mission, but there is also the sense that
Speaker 2: maybe it's working a little bit, like they can slow
Speaker 2: her down for sure.
Speaker 5: So when I was watching that scene, what I read was,
Speaker 5: you know, obviously, when Carol explicitly calls out like you're
Speaker 5: trying to distract me from my mission, Zosha goes in
Speaker 5: for the kiss, and I'm like, oh shit, it's like
Speaker 5: low key working. And then all of a sudden she's
Speaker 5: inspired to start writing again. But then after I've sat
Speaker 5: with the episode for a little bit, I was like,
Speaker 5: what she genuinely inspired to start writing in from that moment?
Speaker 5: Or is this again Carol trying to play for d
Speaker 5: Chess and his in turn trying to distract the Hive
Speaker 5: mind again by giving them this new book to put
Speaker 5: focus their attention on, you know, because I think maybe
Speaker 5: that's what Carol is doing is she's trying to like
Speaker 5: one up them with an even bigger distraction.
Speaker 4: I think you're right. I think you're right.
Speaker 2: I think she's playing the game for them, playing the
Speaker 2: game back at them and saying, yes, yeah, it's working,
Speaker 2: it's working. I also think that, like human nature tells
Speaker 2: me that people can one of the most amazing things,
Speaker 2: like I feel like people can do is rationalize what
Speaker 2: they're doing to make it so actually I meant to
Speaker 2: do this. I think that there's a world in which
Speaker 2: Carol gets so wrapped up in the writing that the
Speaker 2: Hive Mind actually succeeds. I mean that kiss huge gamble, right,
Speaker 2: And I think that there's a world in which you
Speaker 2: can imagine Carol being actually.
Speaker 1: Disgusted, Oh for sure.
Speaker 4: But I think it's a.
Speaker 3: Measure of how cunning and.
Speaker 2: Good the Hive Mind are at their Ris game that
Speaker 2: they took the gamble, probably with the idea that like
Speaker 2: this is.
Speaker 4: Actually going to work.
Speaker 2: And it also made me think that maybe they're buying
Speaker 2: time for your theory to start doing something with the
Speaker 2: stem cells from the eggs.
Speaker 4: Like I was, I found the.
Speaker 2: Cold open of this episode it felt very important to
Speaker 2: me seeing that blood Menusus's blood hit the floor because
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that bloo. I think they're going to
Speaker 2: collect that and any material that they got from Manusa's
Speaker 2: because I think it's important to me, right, and it's
Speaker 2: important detail I think that they don't. I think if
Speaker 2: Manuso's could have said don't operate on me and save
Speaker 2: my life, he would have. And I think they could
Speaker 2: have meaningly inferred that from everything he had done up
Speaker 2: to that point, and yet they went against that to
Speaker 2: save his life.
Speaker 4: So I do kind of feel like they can immediately.
Speaker 2: Jump to using his genetic material in order to, I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe stop this looming threat that they clearly
Speaker 2: see coming. Like Zosha was ye troubled by his approach
Speaker 2: in a way that the Hive mind who told Diabate
Speaker 2: about Carol's approach were not, like they were a little
Speaker 2: like put off, But it wasn't like like Zosha seems.
Speaker 5: She seems scared your thoughts Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 5: I think this is kind of ties back into what
Speaker 5: we were discussing on the previous episode. This is clearly
Speaker 5: setting us up for a major confrontation when Manusos arrives,
Speaker 5: and I think it's either gonna end with Zosia getting
Speaker 5: seriously injured or dying, or Carol might have to fend
Speaker 5: Manuso's off and end up maybe killing him. But I
Speaker 5: think someone is not going to make it out of
Speaker 5: this finale. I think it's gonna be like what you
Speaker 5: said last week, it's going to be a careful what
Speaker 5: you wish for situation because as we saw in this episode,
Speaker 5: Manuso's clearly has a pensiant or a tolerance for violence
Speaker 5: and physical harm against the Hive mind. You know, he
Speaker 5: had the scalpel to the surgeon's neck in a way
Speaker 5: that Carol to this point we have not seen her have.
Speaker 5: So I think that's going to be a part of
Speaker 5: the a central part of the conflict when they do meet.
Speaker 5: I think he's gonna be willing to, you know, get
Speaker 5: the job done through violent means, whereas.
Speaker 1: That Carol may balk at that.
Speaker 5: So I think it'll be really interesting to see how
Speaker 5: it plays out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am very very nervous about his appearance on
Speaker 2: the scene, and that hostage taking scene made me think,
Speaker 2: you know, we've wondered, like Manuso's like, what's his background,
Speaker 2: I'm now wondering like soldier, here's the thing. Imagine yourself
Speaker 2: for the first time coming to a place where your
Speaker 2: decision making tells you, you know what I should do
Speaker 2: is grab this scalpel and put it to this person's
Speaker 2: neck to get out of here. That would never occur
Speaker 2: to me. That's not a thing like, that's not the
Speaker 2: first time he's done something like that. That's what that
Speaker 2: tells me that this is a person who is used
Speaker 2: to making these kind of extreme decisions.
Speaker 3: And to your point, I do. I think he's.
Speaker 2: Gonna have a very militaristic idea about how to roll
Speaker 2: this whole thing back. And I wonder if the choice
Speaker 2: to infect him, potentially using the genetic material that they
Speaker 2: collected during his surgery. I wonder if it's going to
Speaker 2: be put into Carol's hands somehow, Like I wonder if,
Speaker 2: like here's what I think might happen. There's an initial
Speaker 2: meeting Zosha, I'm Carol and.
Speaker 4: Manusos. Carol realizes.
Speaker 2: How one dedicated to the cause Manuslas is, but also
Speaker 2: how scary and maybe there's something that threatens Zosha's life
Speaker 2: and maybe she's injured. And then Zosha says, hey, I know,
Speaker 2: we kind of have a solution, but we can't do
Speaker 2: it because of consent or whatever. But we made the infection,
Speaker 2: and if you infect him with this, because I don't
Speaker 2: think they can do it, Like, I don't think that
Speaker 2: they could, like even if they make the thing.
Speaker 1: They can't like inject him with it or whatever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think they can do that.
Speaker 2: So I think they would need Carol to do it,
Speaker 2: and Carol will be faced with this dilemma.
Speaker 4: That's what I think could happen.
Speaker 1: That would be really wild. Yeah, Oh that's good. Hmmm.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I think this episode really explored the sense
Speaker 5: of like duty versus connection, and particularly with Carol. You know,
Speaker 5: she has not given up on her mission to save
Speaker 5: the world, as we discussed, but at the same time,
Speaker 5: she really is connecting with Zosha and seeing the beauty
Speaker 5: in the hive mind like you said, and I think
Speaker 5: she's she's torn because she's like, on the surface like
Speaker 5: this is pretty good, Like I get it, but like
Speaker 5: you know, she still feels a sense of duty to
Speaker 5: set the world right. And she said, even if it means,
Speaker 5: you know, I'm gonna be hated or alone or whatever,
Speaker 5: I'm willing to make that choice to fix the world.
Speaker 5: And I think if for nothing else, just to like
Speaker 5: prevent everybody from starving, you know, yeah, because if nothing happened,
Speaker 5: like they're eventually all gonna die. And like I don't
Speaker 5: think she wants them to keep eating people either. So yeah,
Speaker 5: it's really interesting.
Speaker 2: And I think I think once they begin their big
Speaker 2: antenna project, you're likely to see many more people die
Speaker 2: because I think that is they're marshaling all these resources
Speaker 2: and centralizing things one to keep the community efficient, which
Speaker 2: is you know, it was honestly like really nice. You
Speaker 2: couldn't help but be warmed by like the site inside
Speaker 2: the arena with everyone, yeah, peacefully coexisting and it was
Speaker 2: pretty sweet, right, But clearly that's so they can build
Speaker 2: the big thing.
Speaker 3: Right, And I think it's very likely that.
Speaker 2: That the deaths from starvation will only increase during that period,
Speaker 2: And like what then I the other here's the other thing.
Speaker 2: I I don't know. I was putting myself in Carol's
Speaker 2: shoes a lot. And I also think like there's an
Speaker 2: there's an aspect of like ego to being like it's
Speaker 2: on me. I've got to stop this, don't you think,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not saying what happened? Is right, But I'm
Speaker 2: also saying like it's twelve against seven billion, you know,
Speaker 2: like if you go by majority rules and what you've
Speaker 2: kind of lost already, Like what do you what do
Speaker 2: you think about that? And what would you do? Like
Speaker 2: what would what would you do in Carol's shoes?
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, I think it takes a sort of
Speaker 5: like a rational level of confidence, like similar to like
Speaker 5: a professional athlete or something to think like, okay, like
Speaker 5: it's me versus seven billion, but I'm there be the
Speaker 5: one to get it done. Yeah, But I think if
Speaker 5: I was in her shoes, I would probably do more
Speaker 5: of what Diabate is doing and just like kind of
Speaker 5: try to make the best of it, because I don't
Speaker 5: know if I would be able to try to figure
Speaker 5: out out on my own, especially knowing that the other
Speaker 5: people who are in a similar position to me like want.
Speaker 1: Nothing to do with me.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think that would be tough.
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that really scares me is
Speaker 2: you know that that moment where accidentally Carol caused how
Speaker 2: many deaths? Did they say it was like seven million
Speaker 2: or something?
Speaker 1: It was like a lot, it was it was in
Speaker 1: the millions. Yeah, what is.
Speaker 2: The like, what is the acceptable loss rate for fixing
Speaker 2: the world if you're going to fix it like that?
Speaker 2: To me is the other thing, like how many millions
Speaker 2: are you or hundreds of thousands or tens of thousands
Speaker 2: or hundreds or dozens, what is the number that you
Speaker 2: are comfortable with losing in order to potentially put things right?
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure that that's like, I'm not sure
Speaker 2: that's a choice that I'd be comfortable making in the
Speaker 2: same situation as Carol.
Speaker 5: And that actually makes me think it's interesting, like we
Speaker 5: haven't seen manusos cause that kind of like short out
Speaker 5: to the hive mind yet, which I'm it's a little surprising.
Speaker 5: So maybe it's something specific about Carol, But I wonder
Speaker 5: if that maybe comes into play in the finale, Like
Speaker 5: he does something so aggressive towards somebody in the hive
Speaker 5: mind it causes a bunch of people to short out,
Speaker 5: and maybe that kills a bunch of people and that's what,
Speaker 5: you know, turns Carol against him or something. So I
Speaker 5: think it'll be interesting to see how that plays out too,
Speaker 5: because we know, you know, they react really strongly to
Speaker 5: negative emotions.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Manusas is coming in with a shitloader.
Speaker 5: Negative emotions, so we'll see if that is a factor too,
Speaker 5: But yeah, I think it's again just setting us up
Speaker 5: for a wild finale.
Speaker 2: It's what's interesting to me is like that the Hive
Speaker 2: Mind or whoever initiated this signal has they must have
Speaker 2: had this problem before, right, like on whatever other planet
Speaker 2: they've managed to transform, Like there must have been a
Speaker 2: handful of like immune individuals right somehow. And it's interesting
Speaker 2: to me that though the Hive Mind code unites, it
Speaker 2: unites everyone, it has kind of like no other information.
Speaker 2: It's just basically like, okay, you're all united, and in
Speaker 2: that uniting they are clearly so grateful for the gift
Speaker 2: they've been given that they want to send the message on.
Speaker 2: But there's no script in there, no anything in there
Speaker 2: about how to deal with the eventuality. That's not everyone
Speaker 2: will be transformed, and that is I don't know, that's
Speaker 2: interesting to me.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's no like troubleshooting steps if something goes wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's interesting. It is kind of like they you know,
Speaker 5: like leaving them to their own devices. It's like, all right,
Speaker 5: like you guys are born now here, you're out in
Speaker 5: the world, like figure it out, you know, it interesting
Speaker 5: And to that point, I think we did get a
Speaker 5: lot of some really kind of big lore drops in
Speaker 5: this episode. But yeah, it was very casually dropped and
Speaker 5: then they kind of moved past it pretty quickly. But
Speaker 5: I think that's a kind of par for the course
Speaker 5: with the show, where Vince is just like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: you want to know some more stuff. Here it is,
Speaker 5: but like, that's not really what it's about. It's about
Speaker 5: the connections between these characters. So, you know, we learn
Speaker 5: about the planet where the signal comes from Kepler two
Speaker 5: two six. But it's interesting that even the High Mind
Speaker 5: is like, we don't really know much about the planet
Speaker 5: or its inhabitants. We just know that we love them
Speaker 5: and we're grateful to them for sharing this gift with us,
Speaker 5: and we just want to keep spreading it out to
Speaker 5: whoever else is out there in the universe. So I
Speaker 5: honestly like wonder if there even was that kind of
Speaker 5: knowledge of like what to do if something goes wrong
Speaker 5: from that from Kepler two two six, or if that
Speaker 5: was a similar situation where you know, the signal got
Speaker 5: beamed to them and they just passed it on without
Speaker 5: really much knowledge of its origin, and so I wonder
Speaker 5: if we will find out more about that or if
Speaker 5: that just going to kind of be like a looming
Speaker 5: mystery of like we don't really know where it came from.
Speaker 5: We just know we want to keep spreading it. You know,
Speaker 5: what are your thoughts about about that and that information
Speaker 5: that was revealed.
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty fascinating. I also think that, like
Speaker 2: the loard drop that kind of like broke my brain
Speaker 2: a little bit was the fact that the infection works
Speaker 2: by activating a latent ability for telepathy that human beings have,
Speaker 2: like an ability to mind meld over the electromagnetic spectrum
Speaker 2: somehow that just humans are not able to uh to
Speaker 2: interact with because it doesn't add anything or take any
Speaker 2: It just kind of like opens up that channel. And
Speaker 2: that part of it was you know, really fascinating, really
Speaker 2: really really interesting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, when Zosha is like, oh, it's part of you know,
Speaker 5: the human body's natural electromagnetic field, Like you have one too,
Speaker 5: you're just like not tapping into it, that is really
Speaker 5: interesting ideas. So I guess maybe the virus or the
Speaker 5: code rerid it's your DNA in a way to allow
Speaker 5: you to access that on a I guess subconscious level,
Speaker 5: because she said there it's like breathing for them and
Speaker 5: they're not actively using it like a radio. So oh,
Speaker 5: and then that makes me think, is that the frequency
Speaker 5: that Manuso's picked up on the radio? That electromagnetic frequency?
Speaker 1: Do we think?
Speaker 2: I think that that's what it is? And I think,
Speaker 2: you know, Manusa's is going to have some big brain
Speaker 2: idea like, you know, let's go to that field of
Speaker 2: huge antennas that we saw in episode one and let's
Speaker 2: jam the signal or something like that.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I also think that I can't wait to learn more
Speaker 2: about Manusos because I also feel like the way he
Speaker 2: he's like, how did he know this was happening? He
Speaker 2: must have picked up on it somehow, and because he
Speaker 2: obviously Carol has sent him information and he's watched the video,
Speaker 2: so he knows a certain amount in particular that you
Speaker 2: know that this is some kind of alien invasion, et cetera.
Speaker 2: But he also seemed like he knew that beforehand, like
Speaker 2: that there was something that had that had signaled to
Speaker 2: him that something was happening. And his like rage about
Speaker 2: that is fascinating to me. And so when are we
Speaker 2: going to get and I feel like it must be
Speaker 2: the finale, right, when.
Speaker 1: Are we going to get a backstory?
Speaker 2: Yes, the backstory, It must be next episode, right, it
Speaker 2: has to be.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because yeah, it is interesting because in the beginning,
Speaker 5: when we first are introduced to him, he's already locked
Speaker 5: down in the bunker. We don't really know how long
Speaker 5: he's been there, how he found out. But then when
Speaker 5: he gets that first tape from Carol, he is surprised
Speaker 5: to learn that there are other people like him. So
Speaker 5: he was siloed in that way where he knew some
Speaker 5: things but not, you know, as much as Carol or
Speaker 5: the other survivors knew. But then clearly he had interacted
Speaker 5: with some other people before, like like when he was
Speaker 5: leaving to go on his journey and he runs across
Speaker 5: a person used to be his mom.
Speaker 1: You know. I think maybe that was initially.
Speaker 5: What like clued him in or something, when he was like,
Speaker 5: you know, my mom was a horrible person, like you're
Speaker 5: not her. Maybe that was when it first started. He
Speaker 5: was yeah with his mom or something, and that's what
Speaker 5: clued him in like something is not right. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: think we're gonna have to get some kind of backstory
Speaker 5: about where he was like the day had happened during
Speaker 5: the joining or something. Maybe we'll get that flashback in
Speaker 5: the in the finale.
Speaker 4: Any predictions for the finale.
Speaker 5: I mean, but beyond just the big conflict between Carol
Speaker 5: and Manusos, I think, yeah, we'll learn maybe a little
Speaker 5: bit more about Manusa's backstory. I think I hope the
Speaker 5: eggs come into play because that was like a really
Speaker 5: big detail that's been left dangling. So I think that
Speaker 5: will come into play.
Speaker 1: Hmm yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean other than that, I'm like not really sure
Speaker 5: where it's going to go, but I think we're we're
Speaker 5: in for a doozy of a finale doozy. But I
Speaker 5: think the main the main conflict is going to be,
Speaker 5: you know, how is Manussa's going to react when he
Speaker 5: sees how buddy buddy Carol has become with with Zosia
Speaker 5: and and aspects of the Hive Mind situation. So be
Speaker 5: fascinating to see how that plays out.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for joining us uh and getting over the
Speaker 2: hurdle of your wonky internet. This show is just incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1: It's so good.
Speaker 4: It's so good.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much too, Like The The Clear,
Speaker 2: I mean it you'd almost call it like a seduction
Speaker 2: of Carol by the hive mind is so effective and
Speaker 2: well done, and them sharing things about each other is
Speaker 2: so interesting. I mean, I can't I can't get enough.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm like love the show and I can't wait
Speaker 2: for the finale. I'm really really worried that Sosha is
Speaker 2: gonna get hurt or die. I'm very concerned, yes, very
Speaker 2: very worried. It feels like it's got to be either
Speaker 2: Manuso's or Zosia at this point.
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely one of those two. Something bad is going
Speaker 5: to happen to one of the two of them. There's
Speaker 5: no way that they can all co exist, I don't
Speaker 5: think peacefully. So yeah, we'll see what happens. But yeah,
Speaker 5: to the last point, you were just making it that
Speaker 5: is something I hadn't really considered until this episode. But
Speaker 5: it's like, not only do they have the collective intellect
Speaker 5: of you know, all the best pilot surgeons, doctors, chess
Speaker 5: players in the world, but also like they have the
Speaker 5: charm and charisma of the most charismatic people on the planet,
Speaker 5: and they really put it on full display this episode.
Speaker 5: You know, even like Zosha teasing Carol when they're playing
Speaker 5: croquet and like that's like and them like joking around
Speaker 5: and being like humorous like that.
Speaker 1: We hadn't really seen much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the little trash talk like all that stuff was
Speaker 3: so good, and.
Speaker 5: They really turned it on on this episode to as
Speaker 5: Carol called out, to distract her and manipulate her. And
Speaker 5: I thought that was pretty sinister. Actually, the fact that
Speaker 5: they like rebuilt the diner, moved this woman from like
Speaker 5: Florida back to to Albertquerque just to appease or to
Speaker 5: distract Carrol as like pretty that was pretty gross.
Speaker 1: So it's like oof.
Speaker 2: What I find like really sinister about it too, is
Speaker 2: that it's also sincere, like the hive mind. Are all
Speaker 2: these people right, like they're they're they're great, They're great strategists,
Speaker 2: they're great manipulators, they're you know, uh, but also you
Speaker 2: know lovers and empaths and fans of Waikaro. And so
Speaker 2: while they're simultaneously planning to distract and dissuade Carol from
Speaker 2: going through with trying to find a cure, and that
Speaker 2: is very sinister, there's also the level of their sincerely
Speaker 2: falling in love with Carol. Potentially they're sincerely like interested
Speaker 2: in everything she has to say, they're sincerely fans of
Speaker 2: Waikaro and can't wait for more, while they're also sincerely.
Speaker 3: Trying to fuck her up.
Speaker 2: Like it's all of that at once, which is it's
Speaker 2: hard to get your mind around it.
Speaker 5: It's fascinating, and yeah, it's like it's so conflicting, and
Speaker 5: like I can see why Carol is like so on
Speaker 5: the fence and unsure of what's the right way to proceed,
Speaker 5: because yeah, I mean that would be enough to make
Speaker 5: anybody's head spin because they're actively trying to fuck with you.
Speaker 5: But at the same time, like they also are, as
Speaker 5: you said, so sincere in everything that they're doing. So
Speaker 5: it's like where does that leave you? You know, Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's it's crazy.
Speaker 2: It reminds me in fact of like this. I think
Speaker 2: I've talked about this on before. There's this book I
Speaker 2: read Up the River, and it's about like colonialism in Africa,
Speaker 2: and the narrator talks about how, you know, how destructive
Speaker 2: and oppressive like Western civilization through colonialism is there in Africa.
Speaker 2: He's he's a South Asian immigrant in Africa living in Africa,
Speaker 2: which is under colonial rule, and and he says like
Speaker 2: he's talking about like a statue that the Europeans put
Speaker 2: up like in the town square, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 2: the Europeans they want they want golden slaves like everybody else,
Speaker 2: but they also.
Speaker 4: Want you to like be you all.
Speaker 2: They also want you to look at them as like
Speaker 2: these great intellectuals and lovers of culture, with all these
Speaker 2: other like with all these other positive aspects, despite the
Speaker 2: fact that they want to do bad things, destructive things here.
Speaker 2: And I think it's I think about it in the
Speaker 2: same kind of way where it's like it's hard to
Speaker 2: unwrap it all, Like the the hive mind have ill intent,
Speaker 2: but they also have like good intent. They have there's
Speaker 2: a part of them that wants to do the best
Speaker 2: for you and they are true and it's more than
Speaker 2: two things.
Speaker 3: And it's so.
Speaker 2: Like complex to try and grapple with. I think Carol's
Speaker 2: doing kind of her best, but it must be such
Speaker 2: an incredible mind fucking who could blame a person for
Speaker 2: taking the diabate route where they're just like, you know what,
Speaker 2: I can't I don't know if I can necessarily fix this,
Speaker 2: and I certainly can't fix this today. So like let's uh,
Speaker 2: you know. Uh, let's let's play James Bond like in
Speaker 2: Las Vegas and just enjoy ourselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh man, it's just such a good show man,
Speaker 1: I can't.
Speaker 4: Live I me neither. Finale coming up soon.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned x ray Vision, where we're diving into continuing
Speaker 2: to dive into Pluribus as well as start our coverage
Speaker 2: of Fallout season two, and on the next episode of
Speaker 2: Extra Vision, we're diving into non traditional holiday movies the
Speaker 2: whole family can joy and discussing in the second episode
Speaker 2: of Fallout season two. That's it from this episode.
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to.
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepsion and Rosie
Speaker 2: Night and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive
Speaker 2: producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4: Our supervising producer is Abu Safar.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wax.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord,
Speaker 2: Kenny Goodman and Heidi our Discord moderate them