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Speaker 1: On the morning of August fourth, nineteen ninety two, the

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Speaker 1: body of thirty one year old Vernon Huggins was discovered

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Speaker 1: in a park on the north side of Toledo, Ohio. Oddly,

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Speaker 1: from when the case opened until that December, there appeared

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Speaker 1: to be no investigative record until an alleged anonymous tip

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Speaker 1: led to witnesses who claimed to have seen a wooden

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Speaker 1: club wielding white supremacist gang bragging about the crime. Then

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Speaker 1: one young man signed a statement making him part of

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Speaker 1: the Loathsome group, before immediately denying the statement he just signed,

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Speaker 1: but it was already too late for him and four others,

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Speaker 1: including twenty year old Lewis Costilla. This is Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this

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Speaker 1: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early

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Speaker 1: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we're

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Speaker 1: heading to Toledo, Ohio to cover the investigation and prosecution

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Speaker 1: of five young men Ismael and Lorenzo Vasquez, Joseph Ercard,

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Speaker 1: Eric Mish, and our guest today, Lewis Castilla and if

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Speaker 1: names like Castilla and Vascaz don't exactly sound like they

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Speaker 1: fit into a white supremacist group to you, Well, you

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Speaker 1: might not be the only one. So lewis welcome and

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Speaker 1: joining him is his post conviction attorney, a partner with

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Speaker 1: the Ohio defense firm Don Malarchick. Thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Sure now, Lou, I want you to take us back

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Speaker 1: to your beginnings in Toledo, Ohio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was born and raised in the north side

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Speaker 2: of Toledo. That guy the three brothers, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: say baby sister, but she ain't a baby no more so.

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Speaker 2: When I was thirteen years old, man I lied on

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Speaker 2: application to get a child. I was at dishwasher, spaghetti

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Speaker 2: where else. So I worked because that's how my dad

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Speaker 2: raised me. It might not have been around a lot,

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Speaker 2: but I know he loved me. But that man got

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Speaker 2: up every day at work. Just family life was. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I love my parents, okay, love them both to death,

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Speaker 2: but I had to grow up quick. I mean my

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Speaker 2: dad's problems, my maya or problems, and as a kid,

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize adult problems. I was dealing with them,

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Speaker 2: just didn't realize them. So I just I ran the streets.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't out there running the streets like

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Speaker 2: they said.

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But I mean I just I was irresponsible as

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Speaker 2: a kid. Okay. I snuck around, snuck out at night,

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Speaker 2: we'd go sit forty ounces with the friends. But I

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Speaker 2: was happy. I wasn't out there beating nobody up and

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Speaker 2: doing the things that they did. But like the whole

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Speaker 2: trying to say I was part of a white supremacist group,

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Speaker 2: trust me, if the Toledo police had to describe me,

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Speaker 2: the last thing they would describe me as was a

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Speaker 2: white supremacist. Just that's not who I was. All I

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Speaker 2: know is the cops in Toledo didn't like me. Okay,

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Speaker 2: they would stop us all the time because of my

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Speaker 2: last name. Now, like I said, I wasn't no Angel.

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Speaker 2: I did dumb shit, but that's what we all do.

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Speaker 2: I got jumped one time when I was a kid.

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Speaker 2: The detectant came told me I had to drop chargers

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Speaker 2: and he was gonna charge me. Like I mean, Toledo

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Speaker 2: is just I don't even know how to explain it.

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Speaker 2: That's just the way them cobs were.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like they had a very loose relationship with the truth.

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Speaker 1: Which might help explain what happened in the investigation of

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Speaker 1: the murder of thirty one year old Vernon Huggins, who

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Speaker 1: reportedly had a very volatile relationship with his girlfriend, Emma,

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Speaker 1: and then his body was discovered around seven thirty am

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Speaker 1: on August fourth, nineteen eighty two in Woodrow Wilson Park

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Speaker 1: on the north side of Toledo.

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Speaker 4: Vernon is discovered and this bloody bottle was picked up

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Speaker 4: near Vernon. But this piece of evidence went untested. It

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Speaker 4: stayed in the evidence fault and people are being interviewed

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Speaker 4: right away. Vernon's mom says, this must have been Emma's family.

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Speaker 4: I mean, she knows how volatile.

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Speaker 3: Their history is.

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Speaker 4: She knows that this was a really dangerous and violent relationship.

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Speaker 4: Vernon's uncles, Nathaniel, saw him, and Nathaniel says he was

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Speaker 4: with vern after two am, about three am. Gave him

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Speaker 4: sixty bucks, followed him and vern is approached by four

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Speaker 4: black males and Nathaniel says they're threatening him, confronting him,

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Speaker 4: and they're driving this gray station wagon with tinted windows.

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Speaker 2: And he was on the whole other side of town.

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Speaker 2: This happened on the east side. They found him in

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Speaker 2: the North End Well.

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Speaker 1: The murder was initially investigated by Detective Berks, and at

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Speaker 1: least one in the group of four was said to

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Speaker 1: have been carrying the leg of a wooden chair. Then

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Speaker 1: Vernon Huggins somehow went from the east side of Toledo

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Speaker 1: across the Maumie River to the North End before or

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Speaker 1: after he was beaten to death after three am, and

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Speaker 1: his body was found in Woodrow Wilson Park. Now, strangely,

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Speaker 1: the police only collected one shoe print, which could indicate

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Speaker 1: that the park was not the site of the group assault.

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Speaker 1: Either way, there appears to have been promising leads.

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Speaker 4: So the real legitimate leads that pointed to Emma's family

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Speaker 4: were there that information was available, Unfortunately, nobody followed up

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Speaker 4: on that. What happens, unfortunately, is the initial detective who's

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Speaker 4: on the case, Detective Berks, is reassigned and all of

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Speaker 4: this information that pointed to other individuals is really buried

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Speaker 4: and not eventually provided to the defense attorneys.

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Speaker 1: The case was reassigned to detectives Robert Lighter and James

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Speaker 1: Anderson in December nineteen ninety two, who, instead of following

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Speaker 1: Burke's investigation to his logical end came upon an alternate theory.

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Speaker 4: This idea that this white supremacist group attacked Vernon seemed

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Speaker 4: to take foothold in the minds of these detectives. They

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Speaker 4: were desperate to solve this homicide. They ignored other evidence,

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Speaker 4: they ignored other leads, and most importantly, they ignored the

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Speaker 4: lack of any physical evidence at all.

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Speaker 1: It's unclear what or who was the source of this

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Speaker 1: unsupported new theory. According to them, it was a January

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three anonymous tip. But interestingly, around that time,

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Speaker 1: a man named John Urbina was also arrested on an

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Speaker 1: unrelated charge. And lucky for these two gum shoes, they

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Speaker 1: had in their custody the bona fide founder of this

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Speaker 1: alleged wooden club wielding white supremacist gang.

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Speaker 2: Look, there's no such thing. There's no such thing, none whatsoever. Period.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you who Johnny Orbina is. I didn't

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Speaker 2: like John or Pina. I whooped his ass twice. Johnny

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Speaker 2: Robina is a sex offender. Okay, he touched on a

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Speaker 2: little girl in the neighborhood. I was gonna whoop him

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Speaker 2: in the county when they put him in the holding tank.

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Speaker 2: With me because of who he touched. Okay, they threw

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Speaker 2: them charges out because he told his fucking story. And

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Speaker 2: now he's doing al wop in Texas for doing the

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Speaker 2: same goddamn thing he did here.

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Speaker 1: So either Urbina was offering false information about the Vernon

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Speaker 1: Huggins murder to escape being a convicted job molester, thereby

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Speaker 1: becoming the origin of this unsupported white gang theory, or

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Speaker 1: it happened just like these two detectives reported it officially

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Speaker 1: that a crime Stoppers tip came in leading to an

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Speaker 1: apartment on the North Side rented by a woman named

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Speaker 1: Lisa Earle and her roommate Michelle Parkhurst, who claimed to

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Speaker 1: have been at John Urbina's house in July of ninety

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Speaker 1: two when the gang arrived sometime between midnight and one am,

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Speaker 1: bragging about beating up a black man.

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Speaker 4: But the problem with all that is she's got the

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Speaker 4: wrong day. The detectives are feeding her information, they're telling

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Speaker 4: her when it supposedly happens. She's correcting herself. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: it must have been in August, not in July. It

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Speaker 4: doesn't make any sense. And I think they were desperate

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Speaker 4: to pin this on somebody.

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Speaker 1: Now, according to park Curse twenty sixteen, Alfid David. Those

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Speaker 1: somebodies were seventeen year old Joey Hall and twenty year

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Speaker 1: old Lou Castilla, the latter of whom Parkhurst was acquainted

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Speaker 1: with through her roommate Lisa Earle.

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Speaker 2: Look, the only reason I went to Lisa Earl's house

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Speaker 2: is because I was doing her, simple as that. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Michelle Parker's mom is the one that called crime starver

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Speaker 2: and she ain't none but a fucking crackhead. Okay, Michelle

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Speaker 2: Parker's done guy. All of her kids too.

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Speaker 1: Parkhurst twenty sixteen, Alfid David continued that she was noticeably

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Speaker 1: pregnant at the time and had already lost custody of

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Speaker 1: her first son, and then these detectives threatened her with

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Speaker 1: murder charges if she didn't cooperate, at which point she

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Speaker 1: said the wrong month as well as the wrong time,

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Speaker 1: between midnight and one am, when Vernon was last seen

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Speaker 1: alive around three am, and it appears that the police

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Speaker 1: suggested that perhaps the group arrived in a gray Chevy Nova.

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Speaker 2: Evidently Michelle knew I drove that great Nova. It used

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Speaker 2: to be my mom's car. It was always parked right

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Speaker 2: down the street. From her, and I bought the car. Okay,

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Speaker 2: but the car was a piece of shit and it

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Speaker 2: set in my mother in law's backyard. It wasn't even

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Speaker 2: fucking running in July, let alone August. But why would

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Speaker 2: they say we're looking for a great nova? Why not

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Speaker 2: a blue nova? Unless you read some shit that suggested

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Speaker 2: something great.

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Speaker 1: Like the gray station wagon from the initial investigation. So

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Speaker 1: that's three falsehoods for Parkhurst. And that theme continued when

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Speaker 1: they visited Joey Hall, who also chose to be a

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Speaker 1: witness rather than a co defendant, giving many inconsistent statements

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Speaker 1: that ultimately allowed him a vantage point for the fatal beating.

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Speaker 1: And this is where Ismael and Lorenzo v Aska has

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Speaker 1: first come out.

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Speaker 2: Listen, Joey Hall just got out a juvie. His ass

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Speaker 2: got locked right back up after this dude got killed.

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Speaker 2: So the only thing I could think of, man, is

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Speaker 2: he did that shit to get his ass out of trouble.

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Speaker 1: And Derbino was no different now. Not only did he

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Speaker 1: claim to have founded this wooden club wielding white supremacist group,

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Speaker 1: also said the wrong month and time, a July night

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Speaker 1: between midnight and two am. Despite these numerous inconsistencies and

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Speaker 1: falsehoods in their statements. Arrest warrants were signed for Lou

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Speaker 1: Joe Rickard who went by CJ, and then the Vasquez brothers,

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Speaker 1: and all of them were charged with murder.

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Speaker 2: When they came and got me, I was working and

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Speaker 2: they slammed me up against the wall. At the time,

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Speaker 2: I was on back child support, so I thought that's

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Speaker 2: what it was. And then when they told me murder,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, y'all got to be fucking tripping. I

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Speaker 2: ain't killed nobody. I thought it was a fucking joke.

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Speaker 2: So but yeah, I think me and CJ was the

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Speaker 2: first two to be arrested.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Urbina, allegedly on his own, also named a sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old kid named Eric Mish who was brought down

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Speaker 1: to the precinct where he was adamant that he knew

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Speaker 1: nothing about the crime.

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Speaker 4: The detectives then take him out of the police department,

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Speaker 4: drive him over the crime scene. They're showing him where

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Speaker 4: this stuff happened, and the detectives start really feeding him

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Speaker 4: this fake story of and Joe and everybody else's involvement.

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Speaker 4: And they are lying to Eric who's sixteen and saying

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Speaker 4: we know you were there. We've got proof that you

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Speaker 4: were there, we got witnesses that you were there. You know,

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Speaker 4: you don't want to go down alone on this. You

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Speaker 4: don't want to be in prison. So you're fifty years old.

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Speaker 2: Until he was fifty, they said the same shit to me.

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Speaker 4: Too, And they are literally coercing a sixteen year old

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Speaker 4: kid into saying a statement that's complete bullshit. What's also important,

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Speaker 4: I think is the detectives were with him for hours

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Speaker 4: and hours, feeding him there what they call pre thoughts

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Speaker 4: about their theory of the case.

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Speaker 1: So they made a twenty one minute long recording running

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Speaker 1: through the narrative as if Eric was there as a

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Speaker 1: witness to the fatal beating.

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Speaker 4: You can hear him trying to make this shit up

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Speaker 4: as he's going along, and they're having him correct his

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Speaker 4: story as he's making it up, and he's saying, in

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Speaker 4: his mind, if I can tell these guys what I

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Speaker 4: know they want to hear, maybe I can go home today.

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Speaker 1: So he does go home with the expectation that he'd testify,

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Speaker 1: but he recanted the following day, so he was arrested,

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Speaker 1: and meanwhile they offered lou a plea deal.

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Speaker 2: It was an involuntary man slaughter in the commission of

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Speaker 2: a flonious assault, which we call for ten to twenty

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Speaker 2: five and I'm not going to lie. I thought about

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Speaker 2: it like man, because I didn't know what the hell

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Speaker 2: was going on. But then the next day I called

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Speaker 2: my attorney, I said, man, I can't do this. I

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Speaker 2: didn't do nothing, but they told us, if you don't

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Speaker 2: take this deal, we're going to read indict you on

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Speaker 2: AG murder AG robbery. I'm like, how in the hell

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Speaker 2: are you gonna do that? Where they used Air's confession,

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Speaker 2: and that afternoon the sheriff came up and say, here's

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Speaker 2: your reindictment papers, AG murder, AG robbery.

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Speaker 1: Joe Rickard, Ismael and Venzo Vasquez and Eric Misch also

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Speaker 1: received aggravated murder and aggravated robbery chargers. And somewhere along

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Speaker 1: the way, a woman named Rosemary Nell came forward with

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Speaker 1: a wooden club that was allegedly left at her home

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Speaker 1: by CJ aka Joe Rickard, which was entered into evidence

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Speaker 1: not as a murder weapon, but as an example of

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Speaker 1: what might have been used and with what Lou and

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Speaker 1: CJ knew about johnre being as tendencies toward children. They

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Speaker 1: were paired off for a trial without John or being

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Speaker 1: a testifying in June of ninety three.

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Speaker 4: Park Hurst was really the person who put all this

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Speaker 4: together for the prosecution. She talks about seeing Joe and

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Speaker 4: Lou and others bragging about supposedly jumping some black guy.

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Speaker 4: But again she's got the wrong dates. She's thinking that

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Speaker 4: this happened in July. The detectives are correcting her and

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Speaker 4: feeding her that this happens in August.

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Speaker 3: They get Hall and it's more of the same.

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Speaker 2: Joey Hall, he couldn't point to what the murder happened

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Speaker 2: at my trial. Prosecution had to fucking showing And her

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Speaker 2: and Joey couldn't even agree on whether I drove or

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Speaker 2: we walked, because she said we walked, Joey said we drove.

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Speaker 4: These are folks who weren't sober when all these events occurred.

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Speaker 4: They're talking about it months later. And the glaring thing

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Speaker 4: is what was absent from the trial any physical evidence

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Speaker 4: at all. I mean, this was a vicious attack by

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Speaker 4: supposedly five guys who all took turns whaling on mister Vernon,

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Speaker 4: and there's just no physical evidence at all, nothing at all.

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Speaker 1: Plus, I'm not saying that shoeprint evidence is positive of anything,

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Speaker 1: but how the hell would they only collect one shoe

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Speaker 1: print from a group assault in an outdoor setting like

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Speaker 1: a park.

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Speaker 2: I had nothing else to do in prison but to

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Speaker 2: look at shit. Okay, so I looked at the weather.

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Speaker 2: It was raining that night, a light rain, and one

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Speaker 2: fucking shoe print, But you got five of us. What

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Speaker 2: did I do? Hold them all on my fucking shoulders.

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Speaker 1: In addition, the state presented medical experts, one of whom

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Speaker 1: testified that the injuries were more consistent with a baseball

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Speaker 1: bat leaning away from the thin wooden club that was

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Speaker 1: turned in by Rosemary Nell, which could have been corroborated

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Speaker 1: by Nathaniel Huggins. But all of Burke's evidence pointing toward

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Speaker 1: a group of men with a wooden chair leg on

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Speaker 1: the east side of Toledo around three am had been

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Speaker 1: hidden from the defense, making a path for the false

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Speaker 1: narrative about a white supremisist gang attacking with these thin

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Speaker 1: wooden clubs around midnight on the north end.

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Speaker 4: I think the jury got caught up in the brutality

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Speaker 4: of the crime, this idea that this was a white

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Speaker 4: supremacist Act and without the evidence that shows that they

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Speaker 4: were lying. The defense attorneys were kind of fighting with

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Speaker 4: two hands tied behind their back.

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Speaker 2: I was young and dumb man. I was still believing

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Speaker 2: in the system. I didn't kill nobody. As far as

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Speaker 2: my defense goes, there wasn't nothing really presented. When the

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Speaker 2: state was done, my attorney was like, they didn't prove nothing,

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Speaker 2: and again I knew what they were saying was lives.

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Speaker 2: I even asked the deputy sheriff that was walking me

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Speaker 2: back and forth, Hey, you think they don't find me guilty?

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Speaker 2: He said, if they believe that girl, they don't find

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Speaker 2: you guilty. If they don't, you'll walk out of here.

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Speaker 2: And I was trying to convict it in less than

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Speaker 2: twenty four hours. I mean, this shit was a joke.

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Speaker 2: Me CJ Doctor in June of ninety three. My sentence

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Speaker 2: was fifteen in life. Even when I first went to prison,

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Speaker 2: I still had a little bit of belief, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I got these appeals, somebody gonna see something somewhere, and

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Speaker 2: I set my appeals attorney a letter, I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 2: didn't kill nobody, and she sent me letter back. Somebody

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Speaker 2: ain't gonna do whether you're innocent of Gilts. It's whether

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Speaker 2: he was given a fair trial. So I accepted that.

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Speaker 4: So Joe and Lou they're convicted. Eric is bound over.

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Speaker 4: He's tried as an adult, and they introduced this false confession,

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Speaker 4: and Eric's convicted. The Vasquez brothers are seeing how all

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Speaker 4: this unfolds, and they talk to their lawyer and they

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Speaker 4: work out a deal and they offer an Alfred plea,

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Speaker 4: And Alfred plea is a denial that you did anything wrong.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't admit that you committed a crime, but it said, look,

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Speaker 4: I'm not risking it. I've seen two juris convict innocent men,

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Speaker 4: and I don't have any faith in the system at all.

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Speaker 4: I'll take my chances with the parole board and take

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Speaker 4: a lesser sentence. And the Vasquez brothers pled guilty and

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Speaker 4: avoided the two trials that lou Joe and.

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Speaker 3: Mitch got convicted of.

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Speaker 1: So Eric got twenty the life, while Ismail and Lorenzo

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Speaker 1: got fifteen to life.

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Speaker 2: When Melon Lorenzo came through, they got shipped somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: But from ninety three to ninety eight, yeah, Me, CJ

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Speaker 2: and Misch was all in the same person. And ninety

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Speaker 2: five my last appeals was exhausted. So I did what

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Speaker 2: I had to do to survivor life. Since I'm under

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Speaker 2: the old law, so I knew I was going to

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Speaker 2: board and tenure. But I wasn't stupid enough to think

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Speaker 2: they was gonna let me go home. I knew they

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Speaker 2: was gonna give me time, so I just I did

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Speaker 2: what I had to do to survive. O three was

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Speaker 2: my first time going to board. They gave me five years,

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Speaker 2: went back. You know, eight, they gave me three more,

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Speaker 2: they gave me five three three three three. Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: gave me eighteen years and flops.

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Speaker 1: And during that time it appears that Eric Mish was

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Speaker 1: the most active in post conviction litigation, garnering the support

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Speaker 1: of the Wrongful Conviction Project of the Ohio Public Defender's Office,

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Speaker 1: led by a friend of our show, Joanna Sanchez.

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Speaker 4: Joanna Sanchez is an incredible, amazing, tenacious, badass lawyer. The

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Speaker 4: problem is you're making multiple public records requests and you're

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Speaker 4: starting to kind of pull it the thread and you're

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Speaker 4: getting new and different information kind of piecemeal. It's not

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Speaker 4: all delivered at once. It's coming through, there's more and

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Speaker 4: more information.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, early records requests only turned up the initial criminal

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Speaker 1: complaint in August of ninety two, along with the investigation

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Speaker 1: files starting in that December. Burke's investigated files didn't begin

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Speaker 1: to turn up until twenty eighteen. Meanwhile, Michelle Parkhurst had

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Speaker 1: recanted in twenty sixteen, saying that when she had been

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Speaker 1: interviewed way back in January of ninety three, the police

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Speaker 1: had threatened her with murder charges if she didn't name

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Speaker 1: their suspects. Joey Hall, John Orbina, and lu Castilla, never

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Speaker 1: mentioning Eric Mish. They also mentioned her pregnancy, seemingly implying

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Speaker 1: that she would lose custody of her soon to be

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Speaker 1: born and Sun and for her cooperation, she was given

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Speaker 1: immunity among other temporary benefits.

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Speaker 2: The prosecutors then gave her hotels, put her in apartments,

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Speaker 2: and once the trialsers over, would they kicked her ass out.

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Speaker 1: Then, in twenty eighteen, Joanna Sanchez filed a new records

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Speaker 1: request asking specifically for the investigation records from August through

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Speaker 1: December nineteen ninety two, which turned up one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fourteen pages of Burke's investigation records, including a number of

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Speaker 1: alternate suspects, as well as the bloody bottle collected at

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Speaker 1: the scene.

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Speaker 4: That's a bombshell, And there's a statute in the state

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Speaker 4: of Ohio that you can go to the court for

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Speaker 4: post conviction relief and request DNA. The state is fighting this,

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Speaker 4: the state doesn't want it. The States upholding this wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: And while Joanna fought for the DNA testing and filed

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Speaker 1: a motion for a new trial, all five innocent men

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Speaker 1: finally parolled out. Lorenzo was in May twenty fifteen. Cj, Eric,

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Speaker 1: and Lou were all released within days of one another

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Speaker 1: in April of twenty twenty. While Ismael came home that June.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean when I actually got the letter shit,

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Speaker 2: I cried like a little baby right there to Milly York,

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Speaker 2: my wife. Now she was there to pick me up,

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Speaker 2: cook the roast, roast, potatoes, carrots. My first day home.

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Speaker 2: When we was coming home, I saw Walmart and I

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Speaker 2: told her, I said, look, just take me in there

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Speaker 2: and get it over with now. I just I made

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Speaker 2: sure I was gonna put myself in every position that

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Speaker 2: was going to make me uncomfortable, so I wouldn't get

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Speaker 2: stuck in a house in a room like I was

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Speaker 2: still in prison. I couldn't sleep for two weeks because

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Speaker 2: of the new noises. I wasn't used to cars driving by.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this woman put up with a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of shit in the last four years with me dealing

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Speaker 2: with my demons. I still deal with them. They're just

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Speaker 2: not as bad as they used to be.

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Speaker 1: It never ceases to amaze me how love can still

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Speaker 1: find a way even when partners are on opposite sides

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Speaker 1: of the prison walls.

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Speaker 2: I met her like back in ninety eight, and that

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Speaker 2: we stayed in contact. I didn't think the pro boy

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00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 2: was gonna let me get pro to her because she's

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Speaker 2: the reason I first got in trouble because she used

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Speaker 2: to be a seal in ninety eight. So that was

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Speaker 2: my first whole shot. But thankfully I got the right

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Speaker 2: parle officer and he was like, no, I want him

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Speaker 2: to come here, and that was probably about the best

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Speaker 2: thing that could happen to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, we haven't talked about this yet, but lou has

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Speaker 1: four children now. One initial connection to this whole situation

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Speaker 1: for him was through a woman he had been sleeping with,

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Speaker 1: and then his first time getting sent to the whole

415
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: was over an affair he had had with a correction

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Speaker 1: officer who ended up marrying him over two decades later.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm just saying, the lady seemed to really like

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Speaker 1: this guy.

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Speaker 2: Listen, if I'm being honest with you. Okay, I met

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Speaker 2: my wife in ninety eight, but I met somebody in

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Speaker 2: ninety five that stood by me the whole time I

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Speaker 2: was in prison. She passed away a year before I

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Speaker 2: came home. Her name was Faviola. She's the reason that.

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Speaker 2: She's the reason I made it. I loved my wife,

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Speaker 2: but she was there day for day twenty five straight years,

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Speaker 2: and I screwed up and we split up in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and that's when my wife came back and we started

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Speaker 2: talking to you. A lot of people helped me get

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Speaker 2: to where I'm at, and I respect each and every

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Speaker 2: one of them. Some of them are here, some of them.

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Speaker 2: But if it wasn't for her, yeah, I wouldn't checked

432
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 2: out A long time ago. It wasn't easy coming home.

433
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: I couldn't find a job for four months. I'm at

434
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 2: the same job I started back in twenty twenty. I

435
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: went from picking people's orders to now I'm working on

436
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: the bay systems and robotics. Because I was determined not

437
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: to go back to that damn place. They offered me

438
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: to teach me things, so I learned them and now

439
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: I make pretty good money. I'm in tell with all

440
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 2: my kids. I don't have the best relationship with all

441
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: of them, but I'm doing what I can. You know,

442
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: I made a promise to myself before I came home,

443
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: and no matter what I was gonna try, you know,

444
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: I got a son now that lives down here with me,

445
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 2: and he was going through what he was going through,

446
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: and I asked him, now you want to leave you

447
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: little He said, yeah, I went and got it. He

448
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: been here with me ever since. I'll do anything for

449
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: my kids.

450
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: So, while Lou and the other guys struggled with reacclimating

451
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: Ismael got a parole violation just three months after his release,

452
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: sending him back to prison, all of which made the

453
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation even more pressing. Luckily, the court sided

454
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: with Eric and Johanna Sanchez, ordering DNA testing, and when

455
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: the materials that were sent for testing to the Bureau

456
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: of Criminal Investigation or BCI, came back, it turned out

457
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: that two sealed bags containing even more investigative files from

458
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: Burkes had also made the round trip journey, which included

459
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: background that Burkes had worked up about Vernon Huggins and

460
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: his girlfriend, Emma.

461
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 4: Vernon was pretty out on his luck. He would hustle

462
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 4: for money, he had some issues with substance abuse, he

463
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 4: had some issues with alcohol. He and Emma had a

464
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 4: pretty volatile, sometimes violent relationship. And what's really important is

465
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 4: within days of Vernon's death, he and Emma have a big,

466
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 4: huge falling out there's a big fight. Vernon pulls Emma

467
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 4: into a car, he speeds off. The car crashes, people

468
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 4: are scattering, they're all running away. Emma goes home, she's

469
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 4: with her mom, and then Vernon, on three consecutive nights,

470
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 4: the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday before his homicide, he basically

471
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 4: breaks into where Emma is and he's pissed off, he's angry,

472
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: he's not sober. Vernon is threatening her, He's threatening Emma's mom.

473
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 4: And Emma has a couple of brothers and some family

474
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 4: members who don't take too kindly. And we know now

475
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: through witness account and through public records requests that Emma's

476
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 4: brothers confronted Vernon. One of the brothers had what looked

477
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 4: like a club that would have fit the description of

478
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 4: the kind of weapon that was used on Vernon on

479
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 4: the day of his death, and they threatened Vernon. And

480
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: that is the absolute clear motive for Vernon's homicide.

481
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: And then there's the interview with Nathaniel Huggins about the

482
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: lead up to Vernon's death, in which we know he

483
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: was seen after three am on the east side of Toledo.

484
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,959
Speaker 1: Nathaniel gave him money, followed him and saw this confrontation

485
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: with four men, one of whom had a wooden chair leg,

486
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: and they all had emerged from a gray station wagon

487
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: with tinted windows.

488
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: Them cops knew that shit. Thep cops read that fucking report.

489
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 2: The prosecutors read their fucking report, because how else are

490
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: they going to go from a gray station wagon, low

491
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 2: writer to my gray nova that was broke the fuck

492
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: down in my mother in law's back yard. How was

493
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 2: that that prosecutor going to go when they said we

494
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: beat this man with a stick, and their witness said,

495
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: that's impossible. There would have been slivers in the skull.

496
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: What's he go to? Oh maybe it was a Louisville slugger.

497
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: How the fuck do you go to Louisville slugger? Because

498
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: it's more like a goddamn cheer lake. Right, you can't

499
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: tell me. None of them guys didn't see it. They

500
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: all saw that shit, just like these cops that don't remember. Now,

501
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: I wouldn't remember either of us sent five fucking kids

502
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: to motherfucker prison.

503
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: So not only was there evidence of a more compelling

504
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: alternate suspect, narrative and motive, but then also the victim's

505
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: uncle undermined both the timeframe of the murder as established

506
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: by the state's witnesses, as well as disproved Eric Misch's

507
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: alleged confession. But wait, don't forget that this all came

508
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: alongside DNA test results from the bloody bottle.

509
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 4: And again, this is against the backdrop of zero physical

510
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 4: evidence connecting lou Joe, the Vasquez Brothers or Eric Minch

511
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 4: to this homicide. There's nothing, and the DNA comes back

512
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: of a local guy who's got a felony record. And

513
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 4: then Joanna is also able to make a connection that

514
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 4: this guy knew Vernon and this is another alternative suspect

515
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 4: who had nothing to do with lou Joe, Defasquez Brothers

516
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 4: or Eric Minch. So Joanna files this motion for a

517
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 4: new trial, and the prosecution stipulated that this evidence was

518
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 4: not turned over to the defense team.

519
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: There's no dispute about that.

520
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,719
Speaker 4: But procedurally, the prosecutor's office is fighting us at every

521
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 4: step of the way and making this kind of weak

522
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 4: ass argument that it wasn't really relevant, it really wouldn't

523
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 4: have had an impact on the trial. Joanna has a

524
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 4: full blown hearing. She puts on these witnesses. She talks

525
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 4: about how a false confection can happen, especially with a minor,

526
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 4: and she convinces the court to grant a motion for

527
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 4: a new trial, but the prosecution still had the audacity

528
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 4: to appeal that decision. And you know, I'm not the

529
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: smartest lawyer in the world, but I'm smart enough to

530
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: know to let Joanna go first and do all the

531
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: hard work.

532
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 3: Joanna really paved the way. She did all the heavy lifting.

533
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: I talked to Lou, we talked to Joe, and we said, listen,

534
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 4: let's see how Eric's case plays out. Eric had a

535
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 4: really tough case because he had a confession, so we

536
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: felt like if Eric can get some relief, there was

537
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 4: really no doubt that we were going to get that

538
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 4: same relief.

539
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: At this time, the Vasquez brothers were fighting to withdraw

540
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: their Alfred please while Lou and CJ monitored the new

541
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: trial motion through the Court of Appeals and the collective

542
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: process took over two years.

543
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 4: And the prosecution they reach out to Joanna and say

544
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: they're going to drop the appeal, and eventually they file

545
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 4: motions saying they're not going to contest for the Alfred

546
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 4: pleas of the Vasquez brothers being withdrawn. They're not going

547
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 4: to fight a new trial, and eventually they say they're

548
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 4: not going to oppose a motion to dismiss So the

549
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: prosecution files this motion to nully the charges, and that

550
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 4: motion means the charges are dismissed, and the judge said

551
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 4: the words that the conviction is vacated. The judge sign

552
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 4: the order there is no conviction. There's not going to

553
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 4: be a retrial. And that was an incredible day. It

554
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 4: was twenty eight years too late. It doesn't give Lou

555
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: back his life for Job or Eric or the Vasquez brothers,

556
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 4: but it was a partial end to an agonizing, brutalizing,

557
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 4: torturous stint that these guys had to endure.

558
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: When I went to my hearing, I was already upset

559
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: because they wasn't gonna let mel walk out with us

560
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: because they needed paperwork to let him out, so he

561
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: had to sit there for about six hours in Olden Seale.

562
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: But I just assumed that when I got back home

563
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: that I would give with my parole officer and just

564
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: like everybody else, my stuff would be terminated. Everything that

565
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: happened on this case, every courterering, I let the APA

566
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: know so they knew this was coming. But when I

567
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: get back in, my PO tells me, well, I need

568
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: to see you on a tent.

569
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 4: Lou shows up at his parole officers and is telling

570
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 4: her the good news. It's by then been reported on

571
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 4: the television, and she says, no, you're still under supervision.

572
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: Lou calls me and I'm that's got to be a mistake.

573
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 4: I don't know what's going on. So I politely call

574
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 4: her and say, hey, I don't know if you've heard,

575
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 4: but you know there is no conviction. You have no

576
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 4: lawful basis to continue to supervise Lou. And she says, well,

577
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 4: I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see it on

578
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 4: the docket. And I said, well, it's on the docket.

579
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 4: Let me email you a certified copy of the judge's order.

580
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 4: So I hang up and I email the parole officer

581
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 4: not only a certified copy of the judge's order, but

582
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: a copy of the prosecutor's motion to dismiss. And I

583
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 4: say to her terminate his supervision immediately. There's no lawful

584
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 4: basis to supervise. And she writes back some smart ass

585
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 4: letter that says, well, this has been referred to the parole.

586
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: Board, and I just lose my shit.

587
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: And I write a letter, an email to her, I

588
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: call the parole board and I basically say, Lou was

589
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: brutalized by the criminal justice system for three decades or

590
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 4: crime he didn't commit. And this is the indignity that

591
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 4: you have to throw on top of him after the

592
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 4: case is dismissed. There's no lawful basis at all to

593
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 4: continue to supervise him. And every hour that you deny

594
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 4: him is just deny him as humanity.

595
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: Still, as of right now, I'm still on paroth.

596
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: When we recorded this interview, all of that was still true.

597
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: But we're happy to announce that Lou's supervise release was

598
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: finally terminated on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty five, a

599
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: final act and a series of others that took entirely

600
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: too long to come to pass.

601
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 4: And this is the bigger problem here. The system is

602
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 4: designed to protect itself. The system isn't designed to find

603
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 4: out who's innocent, who's guilty. The system is designed to

604
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 4: perpetuate a guilty verdict at all costs, despite physical evidence,

605
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 4: despite witnesses recanting, despite new evidence of innocence, despite DNA testing,

606
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 4: the prosecutors, police officers, and everybody involved in the system.

607
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 4: Their goal is to perpetuate this guilty verdict and fuck

608
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 4: it if you're innocent. Not to mention the DNA testing

609
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 4: identified someone who's still alive. The problem we have is

610
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 4: the incentive of the cops and the prosecution to really

611
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 4: solve this crime. They are still to this day hiding

612
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 4: behind this procedure and saying, well, we're not saying these

613
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 4: guys are actually innocent, so there's no real motivation on

614
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: their part to find the true killer or killers of

615
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 4: mister Huggins. Despite the fact that they vacated the decision.

616
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 4: They don't have the courage and the integrity and the

617
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 4: honesty to say and do the right thing that these

618
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: five men are actually innocent and they need to find

619
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 4: the true killer. They're just not doing it.

620
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: And with that we're going to go to closing arguments.

621
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: This is my favorite part of the show. This is

622
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: where I think each of you, from the bottom of

623
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: my heart and on behalf of our whole team here

624
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: at Lava for Good. And then I'm going to turn

625
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: it over to you don for anything else you want

626
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: to share with me and our wonderful audience, and then

627
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: you can hand the microphone off to Lou and he'll

628
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: take us off into the sunset.

629
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 4: It's hard to hear Lou talk about what he's been through.

630
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 4: It's hard to hear Joe talk about what he's been through,

631
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 4: because we don't want to think that this happens, right.

632
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 4: We don't want to link relive in a society where

633
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 4: someone who is innocent is ignored, really laughed at. And

634
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 4: that's what happened here. These police officers framed innocent men,

635
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 4: and it took decades to get this.

636
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:39,439
Speaker 3: To come to light.

637
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 4: I talked to Lou, I talked to Joe, and they

638
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 4: had the right attitude. They knew that this was going

639
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 4: to work out. I don't know how I would have

640
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 4: reacted if I was in their shoes. Give Lou, I

641
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 4: give Joe a lot of credit. This is a system

642
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 4: that protects itself, and it's a system that covers up

643
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 4: the injustices. And when there are claims of innocent we

644
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 4: need to pay attention and the people in power need

645
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 4: to make.

646
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 3: The right fucking decisions. Man.

647
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 4: I mean, the defense attorneys can bring this to the

648
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 4: attention of the courts. We can bring it to the

649
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 4: attention of the media. But these prosecutors, these police officers,

650
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 4: these judges, I can't believe that there's some of them

651
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 4: that are out there that don't want.

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00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 3: To do good. Raise your voice, say something when you

653
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: see something. This was wrong.

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00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 4: This could have been stopped decades ago, and this system

655
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 4: perpetuated these lies and brutalized these men for no other reason.

656
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 3: Then people weren't brave enough to speak up.

657
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 2: This ain't just me. There's many people that are locked

658
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 2: up in the system that are innocent. But like I said,

659
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: the first time I talked to somebody, nobody wanted to

660
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: ask the right questions. People would just wanted to sweep

661
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: shit in the rug just for a conviction, for a

662
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 2: rating or whatever. Nobody thought about my kids. The choices

663
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: them two cops made affected a lot of people, a

664
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: lot of people. And for them to just sit here

665
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: and say they forgot, they don't remember now, I'm not

666
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: gonna buy it. If anybody out there who's going through

667
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: what I'm going through, it's gonna get better. There was

668
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: times I didn't think it was gonna get better. But

669
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: I know what is the more I talk about it.

670
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: That's why I'm grateful for everybody that's let me speak

671
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 2: that way. I wasn't imploding on myself. I've been holding

672
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: so much shit in for damning my whole life. I'm

673
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: just grateful, man, that I was blessed enough to meet

674
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: the people that I met from the time of mycarce

675
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: ration to now, because if it wasn't for them, I

676
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: probably would have lost my shit a long time ago.

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00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ron for Conviction. You can

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00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts

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00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: one week early and ed free by subscribing to Lava

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00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank

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00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well

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00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and

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00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: Jeff Cliber. The music in this production was supplied by

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00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay. Be sure to follow

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00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: us across all social media platforms at Lava for Good

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00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on

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00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production

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00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company

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00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: Number One. We have worked hard to ensure that all

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00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: facts reported in this show are accurate.

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00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in

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00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect

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Speaker 2: those of Lava for Good