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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. It's Saturday. Time

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Speaker 1: to venture into the vault, this time for a movie

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Speaker 1: episode that originally aired August. This was our episode about

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Speaker 1: the science of two thousand one Space Odyssey. Yeah. This was,

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Speaker 1: of course a tremendous amount of fun. It's one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest movies ever made, um based on a fantastic book.

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Speaker 1: And this was also like really our first, our first

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Speaker 1: true movie episode. Getting into this pattern we've we've kept

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Speaker 1: up over the past year where every month or so

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Speaker 1: we'll devote an entire episode to a particular movie and

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Speaker 1: then pick apart the science that is attached to it.

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Speaker 1: I remember this one very fondly, so we hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from

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Speaker 1: how Stuffworks dot com. Are you welcome to Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm

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Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. And Robert, do you remember just about seventeen

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Speaker 1: years ago how disappointing it was that the year two

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Speaker 1: thousand one was not like the year two thousand one

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Speaker 1: in the movie two thousand one Space Odyssey. Well, certainly

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Speaker 1: it did not resemble the night film two thousand one

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Speaker 1: of Space Odyssey. It did not resemble that that vision

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Speaker 1: of the future, not exactly. We were not uh, we

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Speaker 1: were not traveling. We did not have a moon base.

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Speaker 1: I want my milk carton of corn to suck through

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Speaker 1: a straw well that can be arranged if if that's

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Speaker 1: if that's the definite uh uh, you know, futuristic experience

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Speaker 1: you're looking for. But yeah, this is this is a

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Speaker 1: classic science fiction film, perhaps the classic science fiction film.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can you can certainly make a case

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Speaker 1: for other pivotal works of sci fi cinema, but Stanley

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Speaker 1: Kubrick and Arthously Clark's two thousand and one is a

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Speaker 1: film that has stood the test of time. Uh, inspired

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Speaker 1: just countless other sci fi visions and uh and yeah,

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Speaker 1: that definitely gave us this this sort of benchmark to

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Speaker 1: look for in the future. So the reason we're talking

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Speaker 1: about two thousand one of Space Odyssey is because this

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Speaker 1: year that movie is actually fifty years old. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to believe it half a century old. It was released

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Speaker 1: in April of nine eight, and so because of the

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Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary, because the movie is so endlessly fascinating to

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Speaker 1: talk about, we thought we would devote today to a

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Speaker 1: discussion of two thousand one, the film itself, it's ideas,

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Speaker 1: and its legacy. Robert, how old were you when you

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Speaker 1: first saw two thousand one? Oh? You know, I saw

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Speaker 1: it when I was pretty young, so I don't have

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Speaker 1: a very um concrete memory of it. I think my

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Speaker 1: dad he either he had had a VHS copy of

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Speaker 1: it playing, or it was on TV. I'm not sure,

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Speaker 1: but i'd say who Maybe I was eight or something.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I remember it being a very

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Speaker 1: interesting film to watch because it what It has this

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Speaker 1: dreamlike quality to it, that is there, no matter what

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Speaker 1: level of of awareness you're approaching it with as a

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Speaker 1: view or you know, whether you understand the more complicated,

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Speaker 1: uh science, fictional or philosophical aspects of its message, there's

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Speaker 1: still this this hypnotic quality to the film that draws

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Speaker 1: you in. I have a weird question about it. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if a kid for whom the plot pretty much

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Speaker 1: goes over their head actually understands the movie better than

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Speaker 1: an adult who can grasp more of the content of

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Speaker 1: the plot. Do you think about that? I mean, because

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Speaker 1: the movie is. In many ways, it's almost like a

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Speaker 1: more like a painting or like a you know, a

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Speaker 1: work of art that is radically open to interpretation, where

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Speaker 1: the stuff that the characters do, I'm not so sure

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Speaker 1: that it matters as much as more the kind of

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Speaker 1: like visual themes established the questions raised by you know,

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Speaker 1: the spectacle before your eyes. Yeah, yeah, the spectacle is

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Speaker 1: is a huge part of it. I I actually was tempted.

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Speaker 1: I thought we should I let my six year old

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Speaker 1: see at least part of two thousand and one and

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Speaker 1: just see what his take is on it. And I

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Speaker 1: did not quite get around to performing any a test

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Speaker 1: of that sort um, but I have a feeling he

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Speaker 1: would be drawn in by the visuals for sure. Just

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Speaker 1: thinking about the visuals alone, it's hard to believe this

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Speaker 1: movie is half a century old. Like we were saying

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Speaker 1: a minute ago, it still feels so weird and so

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Speaker 1: fresh and so intellectually adventurous. Apparently, you know. When it premiered.

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Speaker 1: One of the things about the movie is that it's

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Speaker 1: mostly silent. There are only actually very limited parts of

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Speaker 1: it where characters are speaking to each other, and according

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Speaker 1: to the stories about the premiere, the first audience is

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Speaker 1: just hating. Not everybody. There were some people who saw, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is revolutionary, something very different and new, an original

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Speaker 1: is happening here. But a lot of the Hollywood hot

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Speaker 1: shots who were in attendance just hated it. There were

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Speaker 1: tons of people walking out of the theater. Allegedly, Rock

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Speaker 1: Hudson walked out saying out loud, will someone tell me

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Speaker 1: what the hell this is about? Yeah, it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: it is a film in which a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: does not happen, a lot happens. It's a film that

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Speaker 1: that that that kind of sums up the ascent of

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Speaker 1: humanity and where humanity might go beyond beyond our planet.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, every time something seems to

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Speaker 1: be happening, we kind of get a cut, you know,

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Speaker 1: the scenes where characters are having pivotal discussions about what's happening.

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Speaker 1: It's becomes just sort of a staple of so many

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Speaker 1: other films, Like most films are missing. The murder that

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Speaker 1: occurs to in the film is not actually seen, so

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Speaker 1: it when you're watching two thousand one of Space Odyssey,

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Speaker 1: there is almost this sense that someone is messing with

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Speaker 1: you by removing these key bits of him from nation

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Speaker 1: that should tell you what you're supposed to think about. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can understand people hating it at first because it

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Speaker 1: is in a way an intentionally challenging film. It's it

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Speaker 1: goes against narrative conventions in a very deliberate way. Another

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Speaker 1: thing about it is just I'm not usually a person

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Speaker 1: to call out special effects first as a thing to

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Speaker 1: love about the movie, but the visual effects in this

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Speaker 1: movie are just unparalleled in so many ways. They look

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Speaker 1: astonishingly realistic. For for you know, a time in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties when we hadn't even been to the moon

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Speaker 1: yet when this movie was made, we had not been

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Speaker 1: to the moon or space. Photography was very limited, so

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Speaker 1: it's amazing they could get something looking as accurate to

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Speaker 1: the experience of outer space as as they did. But

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Speaker 1: then at the same time, it's so derealized and so

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Speaker 1: unreal and uh, it has almost kind of a Dario

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Speaker 1: Argento kind of quality, though of course it predates Argento,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, like the you know, the strange lights

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Speaker 1: and the way the colors color our moods. It's so good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad Argento did not direct it, by the way,

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Speaker 1: it could have been a very different film then The Monk,

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Speaker 1: The The The the Dawn of Man sequence might have

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Speaker 1: been similar, but uh yeah, the special effects in this

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Speaker 1: film are just so breathtaking. I feel like if anyone

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Speaker 1: out there is wondering, what does it like to watch

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one Space Obessee with Robert Lamb, it's like,

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Speaker 1: every five minutes may sang aloud, why can't we make

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Speaker 1: why don't we make movies that look like this? Now?

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Speaker 1: You know, why can't why can't why don't spaceships look

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Speaker 1: like this anymore? In films? And basically they don't look

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Speaker 1: this good in anything else. For instance, nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 1: Silent Running, another one of my favorite sci fi films,

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Speaker 1: was directed by Douglas Trumbull, who worked on two thousand one,

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Speaker 1: worked on the effects, and Silent Running looks fabulous, but

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Speaker 1: it's not as pressed pristine as two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: And obviously you can point to a lot of different

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Speaker 1: reasons for that. But then there's you know, you can

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Speaker 1: you can say, well, these others were not directed by Kubrick.

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Speaker 1: They maybe they did not have the budget, they didn't

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Speaker 1: have the right key artistic people in place. Uh, this

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Speaker 1: kind of perfect storm of creativity and intent. But but

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Speaker 1: but you end up with this film that you had

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Speaker 1: just looks so unlike anything else. And every single frame

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Speaker 1: of this film I feel like you could you could

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Speaker 1: print out, and you could put on the wall and

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Speaker 1: and no one would question the choice. It's also somehow

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Speaker 1: a movie that many people I think have tried to

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Speaker 1: copy and been unable to. It's a movie the style

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Speaker 1: of which is uncopyable. Uh My. I've talked about this

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Speaker 1: a good bit with with my friend Dave. He often

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Speaker 1: points out that you have the sequel to the film

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Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, uh which which did not did

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Speaker 1: not direct, came out in the eighties. Oh who was

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Speaker 1: the guy who directed two thousand ten? Who he's the

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Speaker 1: same amount gentleman and directed Outland as I Alo Cahol,

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Speaker 1: Peter Hyams, and not just Outland. He made Time Cop.

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Speaker 1: The guy who made thousand and ten made Time Cop. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting just if you just look at the trailers

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Speaker 1: um between the two and you see just the stark

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Speaker 1: difference because on one, on one hand, you have the

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Speaker 1: again that the pristine white um, you know, almost hermetically

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Speaker 1: sealed edible U seeming like you feel like you could

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Speaker 1: just bite into the white chocolate goodness of the spaceships.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and one of Space hodysty and then

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Speaker 1: by two thousand and ten everything is industrial and grimy,

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Speaker 1: and not just the sets the order of the day

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Speaker 1: it was, but but not only the sets but also

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Speaker 1: the character interactions, because suddenly it's not this this very

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Speaker 1: subdued performance, limited uh interaction, limited discussions between characters. No,

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Speaker 1: you have Roy Schider run and center, mayor not Mayor

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Speaker 1: of Amity from Jaws Chief of Police, Chief Rody. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Chief Rody is just right up front getting into you know,

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Speaker 1: loud discussions with with all available characters. We're gonna need

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Speaker 1: a bigger spacecraft before we keep going. And let's let's

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Speaker 1: actually just listen to an excerpt from the original theatrical

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Speaker 1: trailer for two thousand and one, millions of years ago,

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Speaker 1: before the human race existed, an adventure began, an adventure

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Speaker 1: that ultimately leads man to confront his own destiny in

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Speaker 1: anticy of Exploration. Sounds great even without those impressive visuals.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you still get you still hear that,

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Speaker 1: and you just sucked in. Oh yeah. The music is

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Speaker 1: a big part of the movie. In fact, they're they're

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Speaker 1: segments of the movie where the screen is black and

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Speaker 1: it's just music, and I think that's a very important

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Speaker 1: part of the experience as well. So if you've never

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Speaker 1: seen the movie and you don't want it spoiled, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that really makes sense with this movie,

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Speaker 1: you might want to pause this and go watch it.

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Speaker 1: Now we're about to talk about what happens in the plot.

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Speaker 1: But I would say this is not a movie that

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Speaker 1: is that is really going to be spoiled by you

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Speaker 1: knowing what happens in advance. That's not really the point

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Speaker 1: because it again, it leaves so much for interpretation and

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Speaker 1: it's so visual. I would urge you definitely if you

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Speaker 1: have the ability used to get the blue ray on

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Speaker 1: this one, because this is a film where the higher

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Speaker 1: definition available the better. So the movie is basically broken

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Speaker 1: into four parts. Would you say that's fair? Would you

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Speaker 1: say three or four? Um? I would say it's broken

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Speaker 1: into four parts kind of three separate movies that are,

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Speaker 1: and it will feel like that you're like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: guess we're done with this section. Now, Uh, let's follow

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Speaker 1: this character. So the first section you get a title card.

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Speaker 1: It says the Dawn of Man, and you've got this

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Speaker 1: group of early hominids. I think it's suggested, well not,

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Speaker 1: I think it is definitely suggested that these are our ancestors.

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Speaker 1: That you go back some number of millions of years,

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Speaker 1: and they are these sort of desert savannah dwelling ap

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Speaker 1: like creatures, and they are hanging around eating plants, hiding

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Speaker 1: from a leopard that attacks them, and fighting with another

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Speaker 1: band of apelike creatures over access to a puddle of water.

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Speaker 1: And then one day they wake up and find this

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Speaker 1: great black rectangle, this rectangular box that's known in the

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Speaker 1: in the story is the monolith. Yea, this slab of

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Speaker 1: matter that is unlike anything in their natural habitat. It's

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Speaker 1: not only unlike anything they've seen, it embodies interesting mathematical

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Speaker 1: characteristics like the dimension ratios are one four and nine,

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Speaker 1: so it's nine units high, four units wide, and one

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Speaker 1: unit deep. Of course, one four and nine are the

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Speaker 1: squares of the first three integers one, two, and three.

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Speaker 1: And so after first being frightened by the monolith and

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Speaker 1: they kind of scream at it and do territorial displays,

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Speaker 1: one of them gets the courage to go up and

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Speaker 1: touch it, and then they all begin to touch it,

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Speaker 1: and the encounter somehow triggers something in human evolution, and

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Speaker 1: the mechanism is not explained, but something happens to these

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Speaker 1: apelike creatures, right, yeah, they they this amazing sequence. They

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Speaker 1: be one of them, in particular, I believe this is

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Speaker 1: Moon Gazer Uh as he's referred to in the book,

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Speaker 1: picks up the bone of one of these taper creatures

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Speaker 1: that they're living among and realizes that he can wield

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Speaker 1: it as a tool and wield it as a weapon. Right,

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Speaker 1: Grabbing the femur of one of these tapers gives you leverage,

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Speaker 1: and that extra leverage makes all the difference in the

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Speaker 1: world for these creatures, who now suddenly have the ability

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Speaker 1: to kill the tapers and eat the meat and to

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Speaker 1: fight off the predators, right exactly, to fight off the leopard,

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Speaker 1: to defend, to win in territorial disputes with the other

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Speaker 1: with the other ape like creatures over the water puddle,

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Speaker 1: and so in victory, then one of the ape like

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Speaker 1: creatures throws this bone up in the air and then

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Speaker 1: we get one of the most fantastic cuts in all

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Speaker 1: of movie history, where the bone immediately cuts to a

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Speaker 1: spacecraft above the Earth. It's like a five million year

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Speaker 1: smash cut. It's also the reason that in Mystery Science

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Speaker 1: Theater three thousand, the satellite of Love looks like a bone.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, they said that explicitly, Joe Joel Hodgson

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Speaker 1: says that explicitly. But its shaped like a cartoon bone,

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Speaker 1: like the two little lobes on each side, or like

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Speaker 1: a dog chew toy bone. And then of course after

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Speaker 1: this we're in the age of space exploration, which is

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Speaker 1: where the rest of the movie takes place. You've got

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Speaker 1: this middle section that is not given a title card,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't let you know explicitly this is a

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Speaker 1: different part of the story. But a character named Heywood

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Speaker 1: Floyd is flying around in space travels to a space

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Speaker 1: station and then to the Moon to investigate an anomaly

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Speaker 1: that's been discovered on the surface of the Moon, where

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Speaker 1: researchers on a moon base have discovered an underground object

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Speaker 1: generating a strong magnetic field. So they dig it up

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Speaker 1: and it's another monolith. Right. I should also add that

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Speaker 1: it's only in this sequence that we get any dialogue.

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Speaker 1: We go and what feels like an astounding amount of

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Speaker 1: time in the film without any characters speaking to anyone,

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Speaker 1: no narration, nothing, and it's beautiful. It's just hypnotic. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The scenes of the of the Taurus space station rotating

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Speaker 1: there with the classical music playing behind it. Absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: that the whole thing about space stations in the sequence

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Speaker 1: is a really interesting and deliberate filmmaking choice on Kubrick's part.

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Speaker 1: I think, um, because very often what you want to

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Speaker 1: show in in sci fi of the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you had the sci fi of the fifties, sixties,

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Speaker 1: Flash Gordon type stuff, you you would have wanted to

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Speaker 1: show spaceships as an exciting, fast moving, powerful thing. But

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Speaker 1: instead spacecraft in this movie are are presented as a

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Speaker 1: thing as a kind of like slow moving, very careful,

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Speaker 1: behemoth technology. Yeah. And uh, and I also love how

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Speaker 1: the station itself that we see is unfinished. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: there's not this sense of this pristine sense of all right,

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Speaker 1: humans have done it, they're in space now, they've got

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Speaker 1: it all worked out. No, there's this sense that even

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Speaker 1: though everything this this technological world is is so advanced

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Speaker 1: compared to what we had then and also what we

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Speaker 1: have now in many respects, yet it is still unfinished.

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Speaker 1: It is still work in progress. We will definitely come

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Speaker 1: back and talk more about the about the technological reality

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Speaker 1: of the space travel sequence later. But um, so, what

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Speaker 1: happens in the plus so they find this monolith on

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Speaker 1: the Moon. It emits a powerful radio signal when sunlight

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Speaker 1: touches it, and it seems to indicate that there's something

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Speaker 1: else for them to find in orbit around Jupiter. You know,

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Speaker 1: I thought we're rewatching it for this episode. This was

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Speaker 1: the first time I realized that without that sequence, um,

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Speaker 1: the Ark of the Covenant in Raiders at the Lost

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Speaker 1: Ark would have been very different, because clearly that's where

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Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg got the inspiration for the way the arc

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Speaker 1: is presented. You mean the opening scene at the end

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Speaker 1: of the movie. Yes, yeah, don't look at it, yes exactly.

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Speaker 1: You know, that scene I think takes a page from

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Speaker 1: two thousand one in multiple ways. There's the sort of

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Speaker 1: staging of the scene which is clearly esthetically derived from

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Speaker 1: two thousand one. But I think also the mystery of

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Speaker 1: the scene, how it's not really fully explained, how Indie

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Speaker 1: No is not to look at it, you know, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree. Interesting bit of Hollywood gossip trivia. But during

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Speaker 1: the filming of Raiders, Uh, the art in the monolith

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Speaker 1: we're actually dating. Not many people know that. It should

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Speaker 1: have known better than to trust an arc and Arkell

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Speaker 1: break your heart every time. So then we go to

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Speaker 1: the next sequence, the third sequence of the movie, which

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Speaker 1: is a crude mission to Jupiter in a spacecraft called

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Speaker 1: Discovery one. So you've got several crew members who are

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Speaker 1: in hibernation, and then you've got two astronauts named David

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Speaker 1: Bowman and Frank Poole who are awake, and the Discovery One,

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Speaker 1: we find out, is controlled by an onboard artificial intelligence

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Speaker 1: called HOW nine thousand. It's always been fun to point out,

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Speaker 1: especially years ago when I was wrestling with the sluggish

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Speaker 1: IBM for eighty six, that, of course HOW as an acronym,

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Speaker 1: is just one letter removed from IBM HL. I actually

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Speaker 1: never put that together before. I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: was intentional. I assume it was. But How advertises the

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Speaker 1: fact that he, you know, he's an artificial intelligence. He

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Speaker 1: has conversations with people. He sort of presents himself as

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Speaker 1: in many ways a person. He straight up says that

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Speaker 1: he has consciousness, kind of off handedly. But uh, and

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Speaker 1: He also advertises that he is perfect and that he

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Speaker 1: is incapable of error, and of course, when How begins

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Speaker 1: to appear to malfunction, Bowman and Pool are really troubled

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Speaker 1: by this, so they secretly decide to take How offline

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Speaker 1: and complete the mission under human control without the artificially

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Speaker 1: intelligent computer. How becomes aware of their plans and tries

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Speaker 1: to kill them. Uh. He believes that if he's deactivated,

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Speaker 1: it will put the mission in jeopardy, so How kills

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Speaker 1: Frank Pool during a spacewalk and then tries to kill

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Speaker 1: David Bowman, but Bowman manages to get inside the ship

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Speaker 1: and deactivate the computer. And as he's doing this, there's

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Speaker 1: this long, strange sequence where How begs for his life

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Speaker 1: and I forgot how how unnerving that whole sequence is,

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Speaker 1: while where the computer is begging not to be killed,

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Speaker 1: while the while the astronaut is taking out its memory. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just the what are you doing day? We tend to

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Speaker 1: I feel like I tend to remember just a little

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Speaker 1: bit of it that it does. It goes on for

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Speaker 1: a while as he's slowly removing he well, first as

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Speaker 1: he's gaining access to the chamber, and then slowly removing

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Speaker 1: each of those cards, and then in the final sequence

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Speaker 1: of the movie, Bowman reaches the destination on Jupiter and

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Speaker 1: discovers another monolith there in orbit around Jupiter, and this monolith,

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Speaker 1: unlike the others, which were just solid objects, appears to

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Speaker 1: be some kind of doorway or gateway, which begins this

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Speaker 1: surreal sequence that ends the movie, where Bowman is apparently

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Speaker 1: taken across vast distances and shown incomprehensible sites. We it's

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Speaker 1: it's hard to know exactly how literally to take the

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Speaker 1: things that he appears to be seeing. We're showing a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, apparently from his perspective that are just

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Speaker 1: colors and hard to understand. Yeah, there's this sense that

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Speaker 1: is definitely an acid trip vibe to it. I mean

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Speaker 1: some of the visuals so where we see these sort

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Speaker 1: of cosmic explosions taking place like those are are are

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Speaker 1: films of like oil, uh that are very similar to

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Speaker 1: some of those, like those oil projection patterns that you

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Speaker 1: see in like sixties musical performances, whether you know, projected

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Speaker 1: on the on the screen or on the band itself.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of like stand brackage movies like if

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Speaker 1: you've ever seen a Dog, Starman or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: Experimental films that have a lot of things like close

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Speaker 1: ups of liquids being pressed between pains of glasts and stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So you're you're left wondering, is

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Speaker 1: this is this the gateway that were as we're seeing it,

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Speaker 1: Is this just like the the crazy um psychedelic experience

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Speaker 1: that is that is happening to Bowman as he's kind

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Speaker 1: of like squeeze through the fabric of reality and you know,

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Speaker 1: with space and time warping all around him. Is this

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Speaker 1: essentially Stephen King's the Jaunt because he looks like he's

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Speaker 1: jaunting and some of those skills that we see, Yes,

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Speaker 1: so like his visions seem to be intercut with these

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Speaker 1: stills of his face being blurred and warped and like

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Speaker 1: he's losing his mind. And then Bowman finally ends up

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Speaker 1: in a strange room that has like a glowing floor

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Speaker 1: and neo classical furniture and decorations, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have argued over what this scene means, but he

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Speaker 1: essentially sees himself other versions of himself and then becomes

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Speaker 1: them as an older and older version of himself. It

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Speaker 1: seems to sort of suggest that many years passed with

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Speaker 1: him living in this room, but it's not exactly clear.

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Speaker 1: And then finally he's laying in bed, apparently near death,

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Speaker 1: and another monolith stands at the foot of his bed,

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Speaker 1: and he appears transformed into some kind of glowing newborn

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Speaker 1: baby with these creepy adult eyes. Adult eyes on a

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Speaker 1: baby is just the most horrifying side. But it's this

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Speaker 1: new form of humanity shown. And then he has finally

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Speaker 1: shown hovering back over Earth, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have argued, what does this mean? Has he come back

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Speaker 1: to Earth to what has he been transformed? Is he

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Speaker 1: back here to share some kind of knowledge with us?

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Speaker 1: Is he back here to do something to observe us,

401
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Speaker 1: to destroy Earth? Yeah? Or indeed, I mean it's also

402
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Speaker 1: open to interpretation. Really, like, how literally should I take this? Is?

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Speaker 1: I mean, how much of the later portions of the

404
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Speaker 1: film are just purely uh, you know, metaphoric. Am I

405
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Speaker 1: supposed to really think about him becoming a giant star

406
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 1: child and orbiting the planet um? And certainly there's a

407
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Speaker 1: lot of evidence of support that you are. But then

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, I always feel like any kind

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Speaker 1: interpretation is always an equal opportunity game. I feel like

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Speaker 1: you can equally say, well, this is this is all

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Speaker 1: happening within the head of Bowman, or this is just

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Speaker 1: kind of this is kind of pointing the direction for

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Speaker 1: the future evolution of of human civilization now that they

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Speaker 1: have essentially made contact with this higher power. One of

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Speaker 1: the things I love about two thousand one is that

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Speaker 1: I think it is a movie that is deliberately made

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Speaker 1: to have extremely compelling symbolic significance, but symbolic in the

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Speaker 1: in the original true sense of the word symbolic, meaning

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Speaker 1: something that is not just a sign pointing to one

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00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: correct interpretation, but an intention all in valid way accused

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Speaker 1: to lots of different themes like that, there are there

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Speaker 1: are many I think legitimate differend interpretations of two thousand one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like when I watch it now, I definitely get a

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Speaker 1: sense of like he becomes a baby at the end,

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Speaker 1: so as an adult and as an adult with with

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Speaker 1: a child, it's like, I see, this is a new beginning,

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Speaker 1: like this is all, you know, a new possibility for

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Speaker 1: Bowman and or the human race. But when I think

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Speaker 1: I do remember watching it as a child, and that

430
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: last section of the film was like just you know,

431
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: super confusing as one would imagine. It was just dream

432
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 1: like but also hypnotic. Like I said, but when he

433
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: becomes a baby. Watching it as a child, I was

434
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, he's he's dead. You know, this

435
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: is this is a reduction. You know. It's like he

436
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: was this capable, grown up astronaut hero dude, and now

437
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 1: he's a star baby. We've taught a horrible fate. We've

438
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: talked about that before, like, why is it that when

439
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: you're a child, the greatest insult is to call something

440
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 1: a baby, you know, like that that seems like a

441
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: really horrible thing when you're a kid. But now, of

442
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: course there's adults you would like, no, wait, I want

443
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: another life. Yeah, let me go back. Yeah. And plus

444
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: you know he's in he's orbiting in space, and and

445
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: uh and some of the sequel material and the literary

446
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: material accompting a demonstrate he has powers beyond well beyond

447
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: that of a normal child. But but that's outside of

448
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: the movie itself, and we're largely just talking about the film.

449
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: There is one thing that has always stood out to

450
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: me about the movie in a way that makes it

451
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: almost completely unique among stories I can think of, and

452
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: that is that the human characters are dull, I mean dull,

453
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: and it's great anyway. In fact, I think it's great

454
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: because they're dull. And so let me try to explain

455
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: what I mean. Uh, no human character really says almost

456
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: anything of interest in the movie. Most of the movie

457
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: is without dialogue, and when the characters do talk, almost

458
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: everything they say is banal. And so I want to

459
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: say something about the movie that I would scoff at

460
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: in pretty much any other context. And so I think

461
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: the characters are boring on purpose and it works. Now. Normally,

462
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: if a movie had boring characters and somebody who liked

463
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: the movie tried to defend it by saying, oh, but

464
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: it's that way on purpose, I'd be like, oh okay,

465
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: because I mean, you know, if you've been in a

466
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: creative writing class, you've heard that kind of excuse. Somebody's like,

467
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: your story doesn't make any sense of right, it's not

468
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: supposed to make any sense. It's like, well, congratulations, good job.

469
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: I mean, most of the time that's just excuse making

470
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: for a failure of somebody to you know, create something

471
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: in a compelling way. Um, but two thousand one is

472
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: a big exception. I think the human characters are boring.

473
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 1: I think it's that way on purpose, because judging from

474
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: Kubrick's other movies, we know he could create characters that

475
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: were interesting, and somehow the movie is better because they're boring.

476
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: It makes us feel the movie's themes in an even

477
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: more powerful way. And I think the reason is that

478
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: this is a movie where the individual characters are not

479
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: the protagonists. The protagonist is somehow the meta organism of

480
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: the evolving intelligence of the human species. Uh, It's like

481
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: the abstract entity of human civilization and human potential. And

482
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell a story like that and make

483
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: it interesting without sort of anchoring it within some character

484
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: who symbolizes everything you're talking about. But Clarke and Kubrick,

485
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: I think did it here. Like in the face of

486
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: the Cosmos, each individual human is vanishingly insignificant and banal,

487
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: but the potential of an intelligent civilization is vast and unimaginable.

488
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: That's a good read. I like that. Um yeah, these

489
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: these cars, so they're they're sort of two levels to

490
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: my interpretation on it. On one, I can't help but

491
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: look at it now and certainly as a Night is

492
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: a film from the nineteen sixties, and this is uh,

493
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: this is a predominantly white male movie. Yeah. Uh, there

494
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: are some waspy characters and and they are they are

495
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: dull to your point. So it's it's interesting to watch

496
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: it and kind of tear that apart because on one

497
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: level you're thinking, oh, well, this is just speaking to

498
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist at the time, and then how much of

499
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: it is this intentional process? Uh? And and I do

500
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: agree with you, I think it is intentional. We have

501
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: those scenes, um, where the crew members are interacting with

502
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: How and how is so much more interesting than the

503
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: more human character like I know How far more than

504
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: I know Bowman. Um. Likewise, I know a moon Gazer

505
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: more than I know most of the characters in the

506
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: film that we we see that that ape in particular,

507
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: like struggling through stuff, figuring stuff out, and you get

508
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: arguably you get more of a sense of of of

509
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: his values as opposed to the values of Bowmen. A

510
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: moon Gazer is definitely a more interesting character than Heywood Floyd. Um.

511
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: I want to say one more thing about the just

512
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: the pace of the film, and uh, this film is

513
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: it is a rarity compared to so many other films,

514
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: because it does have this lethargic well, I wouldn't say lethargic,

515
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: I would say quo ludic of pace where everything is

516
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: is hypnotic and chill, but also just really drawn out,

517
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: or at least as far as my movie going experience goes,

518
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: I I do not become impatient with it um. But

519
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: it's it's having those spaces, having room to breathe in

520
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: the film that allows you to think more about what's

521
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: going on, to contemplate the symbols. And I think there

522
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: is also something to be said for the spaces that

523
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: are afforded by the absence of uh, you know, a

524
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: bunch of of of of are being arguably unnecessary conversation

525
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: among the characters, or character development or emotional resonance with

526
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: these characters. By by keeping them so slim and kind

527
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: of abstract, I'm forced to think more about them like

528
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: this is I think one of the reasons that I'm

529
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: so drawn to terrible science fiction films as well, right

530
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: are just bad or mediocre ones, because in those films,

531
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, they may have the same frenzied pace of

532
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: any other action movie. They might you know, and they

533
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: might not even have that much intelligent content to them,

534
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: but the spaces are there in the quality of the film. Uh,

535
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: And I'm for and you know, they don't give me

536
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: enough to play with as far as characters go or plot,

537
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: But I'm but I can set there and just think

538
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: about something interesting on the set. I so you and

539
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: I've had this conversation before, and it's definitely true that

540
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 1: this is part of what draws me to bad movies

541
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: as well. For some reason, I find a lot of

542
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: bad movies thought provoking in the way that a lot

543
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: of competent movies are not. Because a competent movie will

544
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: get you sucked into the plot more than a bad

545
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: movie will. And when you're sucked into a plot, there

546
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: are a lot of pleasures in that as well. Like

547
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: I enjoy being sucked into the plot of a movie.

548
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: It it gets you into that flow state you sort

549
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: of like forget yourself and you just become awareness of

550
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: this other narrative. That's all great and great fun, but

551
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: they're a different kind of great fun and stimulation to

552
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: be had. And the way you watch a story or

553
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: a movie that does not arrest you in constant plot

554
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: developments and and the character's emotions, and two thousand one

555
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 1: does that in a in a very different way than

556
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: a bad movie does. Two thousand one is a movie

557
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: full of breathing room. Like you're saying it. It's constantly

558
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: allowing you to think about what you're seeing, rather than

559
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: just being pulled along by it. The late Roger Ebert

560
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: has an essay about two thousand one from his Great

561
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: Film Series where he talks about the the appeal of

562
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: the movie and one of the things he says, I

563
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: just wanted to quote. He says, quote. Only a few

564
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: films are transcendent and work upon our minds and imaginations,

565
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: like music or prayer or a vast, belittling landscape. Most

566
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: movies are about characters with a goal in mind who

567
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: obtained it after difficulties, either comic or dramatic. Two thousand

568
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: one of Space Odyssey is not about a goal, but

569
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: about a quest, a need. It does not hook its

570
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: effects on specific lot points, nor does it ask us

571
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: to identify with Dave Bowman or any other character. It

572
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: says to us, we became men when we learned to think.

573
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: Our minds have given us the tools to understand what

574
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: we live and who we are now it is time

575
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: to move on to the next step, to know that

576
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: we live not on a planet but among the stars,

577
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: and that we are not flesh but intelligence. Oh that's good.

578
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: I think that says a lot of what I feel

579
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: about the movie. Yeah, this is one of those cases

580
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: where I definitely agree with Leebert. I find that I

581
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: either completely agree with what he said had to say

582
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,479
Speaker 1: about a film where I strongly disagree. Oh yeah, well,

583
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean, the best kind of critic is the critic

584
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: who you like reading even when you fully disagree with absolutely.

585
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: All right, Well, on that note, we're going to take

586
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: a break, and when we come back, we're gonna talk

587
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: some more about two thousand and one of Space Odyssey,

588
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: about how it came to be and many of the

589
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: fabulous sci fi but thoroughly stuff to blow your mind

590
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: ideas that are utilized in the film. Thank alright, we're back.

591
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: So Supposedly, two thousand one of Space Odyssey was developed

592
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: by Kubrick and Arthur C. Clark on the basis of

593
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: an idea from an earlier story by Clark. Right, yeah,

594
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: a story known as The Sentinel also known as the

595
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: Sentinel of Eternity. Uh. This was published in nineteen fifty one. Basically,

596
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: it's a story about an alien artifact in the form

597
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: of a mineral pyramid buried on the Moon, and Clark

598
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: has apparently complained that the story contains so little of

599
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: what's in two thousand one that it really shouldn't be

600
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: said that two thousand one is based on it. But

601
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it seems like it's there.

602
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: There's a monolith on the moon. It might not be

603
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: shaped the same way, but that that's already a compelling idea. Right,

604
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: we go to the Moon and we find something they're

605
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: waiting for us. Though there's an interesting, all alternate take

606
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: on what the function of that object on the Moon

607
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: could be. There's the idea that what if aliens left

608
00:32:53,920 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: behind some kind of technological intelligence detector alarm that recognizes

609
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: a certain point of technological development in the human species

610
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: and then sends a signal back home saying like, oh

611
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: now watch out, these guys are coming. Well that yeah,

612
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: it's kind of yeah, cosmic security alarm. Yeah. I've also

613
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: read that there there's at least one earlier Clark's story

614
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: that closely resembles the Dawn of Man segment, and one

615
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind here is of course, that

616
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: the Clark was a was a prolific writer. He wrote

617
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: a number of sci fi stories. By the time two

618
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: thousand and one came into production, he had established himself

619
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: as a major sci fi writer and also experienced success

620
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: as a science writer, often dealing with topics related to futurism,

621
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: computer space travel. Uh. So he he already had a

622
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: career in which he had gotten to explore so many

623
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: of these concepts, so it makes sense that two thousand

624
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: one would be a further refinement of those ideas. Yeah,

625
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: and Clark was known as a as a writer of

626
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: what it might be a silly word, but what's often

627
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: known as hard science. Not not like space pirates and uh,

628
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: space fantasy, but science fiction that's based on some reasonable

629
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: appreciation of the laws of nature. Right and uh. There

630
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: is a novel, two thousand and one, but it's worth

631
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: noting that he wrote it concurrently with the film, so

632
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: the film is not based upon two thousand and one

633
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: of Space Oudissey the book, but they both emerge from

634
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: the same process, and the book is worth checking out.

635
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,479
Speaker 1: I especially enjoyed the Dawn of Man portion of the book,

636
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: because you do get to spend more time with those apes.

637
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: And they have names. They have names, yeah, such as

638
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: moon Gazer. Yeah. Now, of course, Stanley Kubrick was well

639
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: established as a respected filmmaker by the time he made

640
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: two thousand one. Right. His previous film, uh, you know,

641
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: prior to this was Dr Strange Love from sixty four.

642
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: He directed the excellent Spartacus in nineteen sixty ninety seven

643
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: Paths of Glory. But nothing, nothing prior to two thousand one.

644
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: I would say, really, you know, points towards this as

645
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: like the next logical evolution of Kubrick's uh filmography. I mean,

646
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: Kubrick experts may discrew with me on that there, and

647
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: maybe you can, you can, you can point to examples

648
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: to that, but for the most part, like this is

649
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: this is suddenly a sci fi epic, a space epic, uh,

650
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: from someone who has not really dipped their toes in

651
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: any kind of genre material previously. Well, I mean, I

652
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: think it makes sense that his career would take a

653
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: turn like this at this time. This is night, I

654
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: mean this, this is a year of change for the

655
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: modern world. It's often recognized as this this pivotal turning

656
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: point where you know, modernity becomes whatever the world is

657
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: now that there's some kind of upheaval, changing of culture,

658
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: changing of values, a rebellion against the old ways. And

659
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: in two thousand one is definitely that in terms of

660
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: many aspects of filmmaking. Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, it's

661
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: almost as if in sixty eight a crazy space Break

662
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: came to be all touched it right. Yeah. Now, of

663
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: course we we know from Kubrick's later films, you know

664
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: he would he would definitely explore more, you know, genre territory,

665
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: weirder territory with works like seventy ones, Clockwork, Orange Nighties,

666
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: The Shining Um. But but those are still far more

667
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: narrative and traditional films compared with two thousand one. Two

668
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: thousand one stands out even in a filmography such as Kubricks.

669
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: And of course we also have to recognize that Doulas

670
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: Douglas Trumbull, who I mentioned earlier, the visual effects Wizard,

671
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: largely responsible for the many amazing lasting effects in the film.

672
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: He also went on to work on Blade Runner, another

673
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: great looking movie, Yeah, Star Trek the motion picture, And

674
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: also he was at least in an advisory capacity on

675
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: A Tree of Life. I never saw it yet, Oh

676
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: it's good. Yeah. Uh And and of course, as I mentioned,

677
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: he directed one of my favorite sci fi films of

678
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: the era, V two, Silent Running, starring Bruce Dern. I

679
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: don't know if I've asked this before, but which came first,

680
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: Silent Running or the Lorax? Oh? Well, let's see, Laura

681
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: is one and influence on the other. Well, I'm not

682
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: sure enough, Han, I'd have to ask you to look

683
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: up when when the Laura emerged from his stump. The

684
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: Laura X was published in ninety one, one year before

685
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 1: Silent Running. Maybe they kind of emerged from the same stump.

686
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean they're both emerging from. Again, we we have to,

687
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: like you pointed out in sixty eight, we have to

688
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: think about this the various changes that were occurring there

689
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: is revolutions that were occurring in uh in in the

690
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: in the zeitgeist, in the way people were in interacting

691
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: with their world, and certainly the environmental movement was one

692
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: of those. Uh. And both the lo Ax and the

693
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: Silent Running, you know, echo those sentiments. Well, Robert, are

694
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: you ready to drill down and focus on some individual

695
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: elements in the movie. Let's do it. So we wanted

696
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: to just look at some aspects of different parts of

697
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: the film, ideas explored there, what's interesting or what's scientifically accurate,

698
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: what's not um And so I guess it would make

699
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: sense to first start with the Dawn of Man segment,

700
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: the the segment with the ape like creatures that are

701
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: exposed to the monolith and somehow learned to use tools,

702
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: which are, by the way, some of the best looking

703
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: ape suits you will find in any motion picture. I mean,

704
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: Hollywood history is replete with ape suits great, great and small,

705
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: and and good and bad, and man, I love a

706
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: bad ape suit, like I love the movie Robot Monster

707
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: or the Aliens that invade Earth, or like it's a

708
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: guerrilla suit with a fish bowl on the head. But

709
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: but yeah, these are some good suits, good suits, and

710
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: great performances to you had a very physical mime performances

711
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: that brought these to life based on the movements of

712
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: actual primates. And then of course we have actual primates

713
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: and the scenes as well, because you have actual chimp

714
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: uh like young chimps standing in as the young members

715
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: of this tribe. And the weird thing is, you don't

716
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: necessarily even think about it when you're watching it, Like

717
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: everything works so well in that scene, you're not thinking, oh,

718
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: we have people in ape costumes and actual apes. That's

719
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: a good point. So I was wondering, you know, is

720
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: there any way of looking at this and saying, how

721
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: how realistic is this? I mean, obviously we don't know

722
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: everything about our ancestors from this period, and that that

723
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: part of the movie does not say exactly how long

724
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: ago it is, though in the middle part Heywood Floyd

725
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: says that the monolith on the Moon is four million

726
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: years old, So if they're all roughly the same age,

727
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: if they would put there at the same time, that

728
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: might put this scene on Earth around four million years ago.

729
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: So I was wondering what were our ancestors like then?

730
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: And supposedly the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees

731
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: lived sometime between about ten and about four million years ago,

732
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: and the hominids depicted in this scene appeared to be

733
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: would you say, semi bipedal, like not standing upright but

734
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: often perched in a crouch on two legs and uh

735
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: able to stand up, but often sort of hunkered near

736
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: the ground. Yeah, I would definitely say that. But then,

737
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: of course, when the one hominid gains the use of

738
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: a bone tool. This one finally begins to stand upright

739
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 1: in a full fighting posture. And as best I can tell,

740
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: there's still vigorous debate in the scientific community about the

741
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: origins of human bipedalism. This is not a settled question.

742
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: Used to be commonly assumed that human ancestors began to

743
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: walk upright on two legs when they moved down from

744
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: the trees, down from an arboreal environment onto the grasslands

745
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: and the savannah, and so they stood up, you know.

746
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: The classic explanation was stood up to see over the

747
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: grass but for whatever reason, down on the savannah, that

748
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: that's when we started going by peedle. And this was

749
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: still a dominant explanation in the nineteen sixties when two

750
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: thousand one was made. But this idea, I think is

751
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: has largely fallen out of favor in the past couple

752
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: of decades for several reasons, one of which is evidence

753
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: that seems to show that humans were still primary tree dwellers,

754
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: or at least highly adapted to climbing and living in

755
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: trees after they became bipetle So that's a strange kind

756
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: of upset of the picture. A lot of people have

757
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: of human evolution. But there's evidence, say from from ancient

758
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: Hamay skeletons like Australian epithesnes, that at the same time

759
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: our legs seemed to show that we had upright posture,

760
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: we also still had shoulder blades and hands adapted for

761
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: living in a tree environment. So the picture of this

762
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: movie paints was probably more uh was more a feature

763
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: of the dominant theories of the time and wouldn't be

764
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: quite so accurate today. But the picture it paints of

765
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: the the origin of tool use, I think has always

766
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: been a really fascinating thing. Earlier I mentioned that essay

767
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: by Roger Ebert about the movie in his Great Movie

768
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: Series and and he says this. Also. He says, quote

769
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 1: in the in the first movement of the film, quote

770
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: prehistoric apes confronted by a mysterious black monolith, teach themselves

771
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: that bones can be used as weapons, and thus discover

772
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: the first tools. I have always felt that the smooth

773
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: artificial surfaces and right angles of the monolith, which was

774
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: obviously made by intelligent beings, triggered the realization in the

775
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: ape brain that intelligence could be used to shape the

776
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: objects of the world. I think that is fascinating because

777
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: so he's saying that it's not necessarily even something magic

778
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: about the monolith. You know, that it did something physical

779
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: to their brains maybe, but that it literally could have

780
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: just been a form, like a form that they observed

781
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: that they've never seen before, and by simply seeing this

782
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: form it triggered something in them, just kind of like

783
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 1: mere inspiration to say, oh, shapes like that are possible. Yeah,

784
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: and I wonder, I mean, I do wonder if something

785
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: like that is, but not so much that aliens put

786
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: a thing on the earth. But I mean you always

787
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: have to wonder about those moments, like we don't know

788
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: the answer of what triggered the evolution of hominid intelligence

789
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: millions of years ago, which eventually led to language and

790
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: tool use in human civilization and all that. But one

791
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: is tempted to imagine individual on the ground scenarios like,

792
00:42:54,800 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 1: obviously we've got an intellectual capacity to make and use tools,

793
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: but to some extent there had to be moments of

794
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: proto cultural and technological transition, right, a moment when an

795
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: ancient hominid suddenly understood that an inanimate object like a

796
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: stick or a bone could be used as a tool.

797
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 1: To do something or could be used in a different

798
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: way than it had been used before. And it's it's

799
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: just amazing to wonder what did that moment look like?

800
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: What did she see or hear or feel that allowed

801
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: that jump across the chasm of of how an object

802
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: can be manipulated and used. Yeah, and indeed it was

803
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: probably not so cinematic R and I. It's easy to imagine, uh,

804
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, an individual making a discovery like that and

805
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: then either not utilizing it, uh and treating it as

806
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: a curio or dying before they can pass it on.

807
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: And then someone else, another individual has to make the

808
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: same discovery years later, and maybe that one picks up.

809
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't, um, but certainly it works. I feel

810
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: like the scene itself in the film works as a

811
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: great illustration of this overall movement. I almost feel like

812
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: this is something that, you know, I want evolutionary anthropologists

813
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: to think about, like, is is there a site that

814
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: could have been seen somehow away, a way of mimicking

815
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: something seen in the environment that could produce the inspiration

816
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: for tool use. But we'll have to have to maybe

817
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: look into this, because two use among animals is always

818
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: a fascinating topic, and it's something we continue to learn

819
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: more and more about, particularly thinking about the but believe

820
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 1: they're largely German experiments taking place with with the tool

821
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: using birds and observing how into what degree they'll use uh,

822
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, sticks on various tasks. Oh yeah, we've done

823
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: We've done whole episodes on bird intelligence, and yeah, there's

824
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 1: extensive tool used by birds. Crows and corvids show really

825
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: startling kinds of tool use, you know, on the level

826
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 1: of what you'd you'd expect to see from an ape. Right, yeah,

827
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: so yeah, what what did it look like the first

828
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: the first crow to to actually pick up a twig

829
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: and use it as a tool. What might that have

830
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: looked like if we've had kind of a like a

831
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: god's eye view of the whole process. All right, let's

832
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: throw this bone in the into the air Joe and

833
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: move on to the age of space travel. You know,

834
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: one of the best things I think about the technological

835
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: accuracy of the movie is that they don't have magical

836
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: gravity plating on the floors. And this was standard in

837
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: the science fiction of the time that you know, you

838
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: have a spaceship and people just walk around in it,

839
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: because why not, Oh, and it's and it's largely standard afterwards,

840
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: like you'll find some pretty you you'll find some some

841
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: sci fi that that's pretty serious about its science. But

842
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: when it comes to gravity on the ship, they just

843
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: they just go ahead and just assume there's magic gravity.

844
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 1: It's like, ultimately easier to just go ahead and chalk

845
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: that one up to magic so we can talk about

846
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: other things. Um. I mean, it's one of the reasons

847
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: that I really like the Expanse uh the television series,

848
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: book series as well. And they don't cheat. They don't

849
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: cheat on the gravity. I mean, there may be some

850
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: case to be made for some level of cheating, but

851
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: for the most part, they take the gravity seriously and

852
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: it's a part of the plotting as well. Yeah, and

853
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: so all of the artificial gravity in two thousand one

854
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: Space Odyssey is created by real forces, by by rotating force.

855
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: So just like we've talked about in our artificial gravity episode,

856
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: you've got a space station that's a rotating wheel. This

857
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: uses the angular momentum of the rotation to create a

858
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: downward pressure on the floor inside the wheel where people

859
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: can walk around. Uh. And even in the spaceship in

860
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: the Discovery one there's like a big spherical kind of

861
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: command area that has a segment of it with artificial

862
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: gravity in it. Uh, that's created by rotating a sort

863
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: of ring around the middle. Now, I have read some

864
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: analysis that says one problem with the discovery one artificial

865
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: gravity is that, given what we're looking at in the movie,

866
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 1: it is not big enough and would have to spin

867
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: too asked to create a realistic artificial gravity environment because

868
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: there would be excess Coriolis forces. Yeah, I believe we

869
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: went into this a little bit on our artificial gravity

870
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: episode that yeah, you would. You would probably need a

871
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: bigger wheel. Yeah, you probably would. So the brief refresher

872
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: the Coriolis forces is basically just uh strange counterintuitive movements

873
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: that happen when you're within a rotating frame of reference.

874
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: So if you imagine uh, people sitting on a merry

875
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: go round like horses going around, and one of them

876
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: tries to throw a ball to the other one is

877
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 1: not going to be so easy, right, because it's rotating.

878
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: It's not moving in a straight line. So you try

879
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: to throw a ball to somebody and you are maybe

880
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: throwing the ball to where they would be if they

881
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: were moving in a straight line, but they're rotating, so

882
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: the ball appears to curve off path. It doesn't seem

883
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: to make any sense. Before we move on, I should

884
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: also point out the other big obvious um aspect of

885
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: the presentation of space travel in this uh, in this movie,

886
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: and that is that there is there is no sound

887
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: in space. And they adhere to this in a way

888
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: that virtually no other film does. Yeah, like even pretty

889
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: smart film, even films and properties that will go ahead

890
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: and try and be realistic with gravity. They're like, Nope,

891
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: if we're having a space battle, nobody's gonna watch it

892
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: unless they're explosion noises, right. Uh. But there there are

893
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: noises for the astronauts, but they're internal noises. That's fantastic.

894
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: Like when the astronauts go out for e v A,

895
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: there is this almost deafening hiss of life support systems

896
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: within their suits. And I was reading a little bit

897
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: about what astronauts do actually here when they're on their spacewalks, uh,

898
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: and apparently, yeah, they mainly hear their own life support systems.

899
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: They hear like pumping and fans and stuff like that

900
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: within their suits. But it's kind of creepy to imagine

901
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,439
Speaker 1: because imagine trying to do mechanical work with tools when

902
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: you can't hear anything you're doing. Yeah, it's it's a

903
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: it's it's a different reality than we're used to dealing with.

904
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: You normally, you should be able to to hear your tool,

905
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: and even if you're not, you're not consciously thinking about it.

906
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: It's part of your your your sensory experience of the

907
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: of of of the activity. Yeah, I mean, I imagine

908
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: to be deeply unsettling to go and loosen a bolt

909
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: and I just hear nothing. It's completely silent. But they

910
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: have to. Astronauts on spacewalks have to do things like that.

911
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: That's why you gotta have those explosive bolts joke, because

912
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 1: just push the button and you're done. No, no sitting

913
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: there cranking them around. Oh, there's some good explosive bolts

914
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: in the movie too. Uh. And there was one part

915
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: where I thought I caught a mistake in the movie.

916
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: I thought I caught a gravity mistake where there's a

917
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: scene where they're flying in a moon shuttle to a

918
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: thing on the surface of the Moon. And we just

919
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: did an episode about coffee and space. Heywood Floyd and

920
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: his buddies. They're pouring out a caraff of coffee to

921
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: pour coffee into cups, and I was like, hey, that

922
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't work. But then I realized, oh, wait a minute.

923
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: Now this shuttle is presumably not actually in a zero

924
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: G environment. It's flying over the surface of the Moon, right,

925
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: so it would be something more like imagining be in

926
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: an airplane. But then again I thought. I came back

927
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: on that and I was like, well, but an airplane

928
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't work on the Moon because airplanes have to generate

929
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: lift by creating a differential flow of air under the wings,

930
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: you know, so you can generate forward thrust, and then

931
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: there's a differential pressure of of flow of air above

932
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: the wing and below the wing, or the aerofoil, whatever

933
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: it is, and then that lifts the plane up. On

934
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: the Moon where there's no atmosphere, you couldn't do that,

935
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: So how would you even have air travel on the moon. Well,

936
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,720
Speaker 1: as far as the coffee aspect of this problem goes,

937
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 1: they do. The cooper does have make the factulous choice

938
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 1: of simply cutting away before we see coffee actually poured,

939
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: So we we end up having a lengthy discussions later

940
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: on about how that coffee might have worked, but the

941
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: magician doesn't reveal his trick well. But there's a huge

942
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: amount of attention paid in general in the movie too,

943
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: allowing life to continue in microgravity or zero gravity environment food,

944
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: for instance, either being stuck through the straw or scraped

945
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: off of that trade that wonderfully appetizing green paste. It

946
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: looks like like the worst possible store bought guacamole, a

947
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: thing like the not the cool kind of guacamole we

948
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: can get now, the kind of store bought guacamole that

949
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: you could only either you've got in like that the nineties,

950
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: I would say all the food now you're talking about

951
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: the scene on the Discovery one, but that's in a

952
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: simulated gravity environment. But it's still disgusting. It is disgusting. Yeah,

953
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: they it looks like to me, it looks like what

954
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: they're eating is different colored versions of the the I

955
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: don't know whatever that stuff is on the top of

956
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: a lemon bar, you know what I'm talking about, Like

957
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: that just kind of gelatinous consistency stuff. It just kind

958
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: of scraping it off with that with the device. It

959
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: kind of looks like the thing that the Romans used

960
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: to scrape their skin in the bat in the baths,

961
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 1: except I guess it's you know, this is like corn

962
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: beef flavored lemon bar. But yeah, so so you've got

963
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: the space travel scenes in in the zero G space

964
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: shuttles in the middle section of the movie, where they're

965
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: eating and drinking out of like corn cartons. I guess

966
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: liquid corn liquid carrot seems kind of gross. The the

967
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: flight attendants have these grip shoes that allow them to

968
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: walk around by gripping the floor. I guess it's some

969
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: kind of velcro like thing. Yeah, yeah, you might have

970
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: missed it in the film because they only spend like

971
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: a half hour establishing this technology. But I say that

972
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: it's not a not a second off. It's boring, but

973
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: they do firmly establish how they're walking around. An amazing

974
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: comic relief moment is the moment where Haywood Floyd is

975
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: on the flight and I think he's just been sucking

976
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 1: up some some corn carton, you know, like a corn

977
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,439
Speaker 1: through a straw, and then the next thing we see

978
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: is him staring at the instructions for a zero gravity toilet.

979
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: It says like passengers are advised to read instructions before

980
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,439
Speaker 1: use and then there's this massive column of text. He's

981
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: like biting his knuckle. But that does also play on

982
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: on some real space issues, like you've talked about before

983
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: with the the emergencies of of bladder control in zero gravity.

984
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: Oh certainly, Yeah, that the how the bladder doesn't fill

985
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: up from top to bottom, but from all sides in

986
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 1: and then suddenly it's the last second and you've got

987
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: to go potty. Um. Yeah, A tremendous amount of research

988
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: and development has gone into creating a better bathroom experience

989
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: in space, and for for a great reason. I mean,

990
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: this is a basic aspect of how the human body

991
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 1: works and when you absolutely need to maintain hygienic control

992
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: off in a microgravity environment. Do you know how the

993
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: early space command design did not take that into account,

994
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: Like in his first orbital flight, Alan Shephard, Well, actually

995
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: I think not while he was in flight. I believe

996
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: it was before liftoff he had to he had to

997
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: pee in his space suit, and he was They did

998
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: not give him any anything to deal with this. They

999
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: just figured, you know, the flight would be so short

1000
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: that he could hold it. But then there were launched

1001
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: delays and so he's there in his suit for hours

1002
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 1: and hours and he's got a pee, so he just

1003
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: went and it shorted out some of his sensors and equipment.

1004
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 1: It's kind of an embarrassing story that they were like, Oh,

1005
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 1: we don't need to worry about that. Isn't this scene

1006
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: presented in the right stuff the motion picture? I don't

1007
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: recall it, is okay, unless that's a false memory. I

1008
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: seem to recall this this scene taking place. Well, if

1009
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: it does, apparently that's a true story. But but more

1010
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: about the way the movie deals with space travel, space communication,

1011
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,919
Speaker 1: all that beyond just the toilets. Uh So, one thing

1012
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: that it does correctly acknowledge is the time delay between

1013
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: signals received and transmitted between say a ship en route

1014
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: to Jupiter and the Earth. Like there's a part where

1015
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: the astronauts on the Discovery one going to Jupiter they

1016
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 1: do an interview with the BBC and the BBC guys

1017
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: like we had to edit out the seven minute delays

1018
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: between questions and answers. But also once they actually do

1019
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: the interview, when you're thinking about that, it seems kind

1020
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 1: of like, what because there are parts where the interviewer

1021
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: asks such dumb questions if you're not going to get

1022
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: an answer for seven minutes. It seems like he should

1023
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: have been more concise. Yeah, you think you would think so. No.

1024
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: One thing the movie demonstrates that that I think we

1025
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: have not yet figured out from a scientific perspective is

1026
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: the idea of hibernation, human hibernation on board spacecraft. So

1027
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: on the Discovery one, you've got two astronauts who are

1028
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: awake and sort of minding the store, and then you've

1029
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: got a whole other crew of astronauts who are in hibernation,

1030
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: and it says sarcophagus looking devices. It's very creepy. Yeah,

1031
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: and like some of the like I think I can't

1032
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: remember if it's Pool or Bowman, but one of them

1033
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: is drawing them while they're in hybernation. And how is

1034
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: is commenting as that it looks very good days. It's

1035
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: really been working on your your skill. That's great. But

1036
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: they say the hibernation is like sleep. They breathe once

1037
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 1: a minute, the heart beats three times a minute, and

1038
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: body temperature is three degrees integrade. And as far as

1039
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 1: I know that, they don't explain in the movie really

1040
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: how this works. And as far as I know, this

1041
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: is not possible, right, I mean, certainly hibernation continues to

1042
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: be of of key interest to researchers for a number

1043
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: of reasons. I should have said not possible yet, right, yes,

1044
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: but but it's one of the reasons that we keep

1045
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 1: looking at hibernation, hibernation in actual organisms because I mean,

1046
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: there are a number of different health potential health benefits there,

1047
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: but also the ability to use this for long term

1048
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: space travel is is very attractive. Now. The explanation in

1049
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 1: two thousand one is that it's not so much of

1050
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: a spacist situation, so they're not traveling between stars or anything,

1051
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 1: but rather it's about raining in consumption of air, water,

1052
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: and food for the travel portion of the mission. So yeah,

1053
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: you don't need the doctor until you get there, or

1054
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: you know, an astrophysicists or whatever the specialists are. You

1055
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 1: don't need them on the way. So why feed them

1056
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: and water them and give them, uh, the finite portions

1057
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: of the atmosphere rations until you get there? Right? And

1058
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: hibernation would seem to be the biological process to look

1059
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 1: to here, because I mean it's uh, we've seen examples

1060
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 1: of in true hibernators of greatly decreased metabolic activity, ability

1061
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: to withstand extreme cold and uh, and resistance to muscle

1062
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: atrophy while they're under uh. That's that's one of the

1063
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: amazing things about like any hybernating species. But if you're

1064
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: gonna look at something even it's like a hibernation light

1065
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: arguably like like various bears, the fact that they can

1066
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: essentially be a mobile for such a long period of

1067
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: time and get out and all their muscles still work.

1068
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's amazing. Well human perspective, muscle

1069
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: atrophy is a problem even from the point of view

1070
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: of active astronauts and nunberduced gravity. I mean, if you're

1071
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: on the space station, you've got to exercise vigorously uh

1072
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: to try to maintain some of your your bone density

1073
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: and muscle strength because what you don't have a floor

1074
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: to push against. Yeah. Now, one thing I sort of

1075
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: take issue with, and again this I'm I'm not nitpicking

1076
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: here too much, but it's said that the hibernation is

1077
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: like sleep. But I've read accounts that sleep the sleep

1078
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: light aspects here might not match up with with reality

1079
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: all that much. I've seen the hibernation of Arctic ground

1080
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: squirrels compared to a kind of awful insomnia where the

1081
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: where the creatures actually have to extend a fair amount

1082
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: of energy to heat back up so that they can sleep.

1083
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: That sleep is perhaps something that is um, it's not

1084
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: possible why you're truly hibernating, which which which is fascinating

1085
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: to think about. So it also does remind me of

1086
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: of another science fiction work of Orson Scott card Is

1087
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: Um he had he had an older novel titled Hot Sleep,

1088
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: and the idea here was that that suspended animation was

1089
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: kind of like an awful boiling insomnia. It was that

1090
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 1: one experienced while they were in transit to another place.

1091
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 1: Sounds bad, but I always think of that when I

1092
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: read about this idea that hibernation is not sleep, it

1093
00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe more like hot sleep. Now we're back to the jaunt. Yes, yeah,

1094
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: there's uh, that's another one. I feel like Stephen King's

1095
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: The John might not have been possible without two thousand

1096
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: and one. Yeah, I wonder. But well, speaking of sleep,

1097
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: there's another thing that I thought was worth mentioning maybe

1098
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: is there's a scene on The Discovery One where it

1099
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 1: appears that the astronaut Frank Pool is I could be

1100
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: mistaking what's going on in the scene, but he appears

1101
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: to be doing some kind of light bathing, like he's

1102
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: in his underwear and he's laying on a slab under

1103
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of lights um And you know, I wondered,

1104
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: is that supposed to be what's going on there? And

1105
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: it would make sense because light regimes matter to astronauts.

1106
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: What kind of light you're exposed to does have an

1107
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: effect on your body, on your circadian rhythms, on everything.

1108
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I've read about reports of astronauts sometimes having

1109
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: trouble sleeping on space stations, and the different kinds of

1110
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: light and exposure to different kinds of light at different

1111
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: times could help alleviate that problem. Like if you're exposed

1112
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: to a fluorescent light that's putting out blue frequencies, this

1113
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: could lead to trouble getting to sleep, and you might

1114
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: need to turn on an led some kind of different

1115
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: kind of light if you want to maintain your daily

1116
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: cycles correctly. Yeah, I like the circadian rhythm interpretation of

1117
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: that scene. Otherwise he's just bored and decided to strip

1118
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: down and hang out, you know, totally unrelated to what

1119
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: we're just saying. Well, actually, no sort of related to

1120
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: sleeping in space. One thing I love it predicts is

1121
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: that there are hotel chains on the space station. So

1122
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: I love heywood Floyd gets up to the space station

1123
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: on the ring module, you know, with the artificial gravity,

1124
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: and he's walking around and we see like a Howard

1125
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: Johnson's and a Hilton. It's such a that whole station.

1126
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,439
Speaker 1: It's just so stylish. Just I just I just want

1127
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: to be there. Yeah. And if I was there, I

1128
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: could just check into the hotel and it'd be good

1129
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: to go. Well, I don't necessarily think that's all that implausible.

1130
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: I mean I wonder about commercial hotel chains getting into someday,

1131
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: uh space stations. I mean, we've already seen at least

1132
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: I can think of at least one company the working

1133
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: on space station habitats, like a big Low Aerospace which

1134
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: has been working on orbital habitats. I think the guy

1135
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: behind that company was like a like a hotel or

1136
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: motel chain guy. Yeah. I think we will get to

1137
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: the point where there will be there will be orbital hotels. Now,

1138
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: will they have bed bugs? I don't know, it depends

1139
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: what will the will you know, cosmic radiation and occasional

1140
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: solar radiation swells due to those bed bugs. Maybe they'll

1141
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: become the giant mutants rampaging through the the the orbital wheels.

1142
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: The answer is yes. But what is a space holiday

1143
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: in without some mutants? That's true, I would hope that.

1144
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: I mean, we're basically doing all the legwork here for

1145
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: future sci fi riders taking note. Yeah, helliday in in space,

1146
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: that'll be. That'll be the franchise. All right, Should we

1147
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: take another break and then come back talk a little

1148
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: bit about how an Ai And that's right, we should

1149
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna We're gonna be right back. Alright,

1150
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: we're back. So before we get into talking about how

1151
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: I do need to point out that we do see

1152
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: some scenes where it looks like the the the crew

1153
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: members the Discovery are using iPads. They have these wonderful

1154
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: flat screen devices, and that's just one of those those

1155
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 1: moments where you're like, oh man, this film totally got

1156
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: it right. I mean, they missed iPads. Uh, you know,

1157
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 1: they were a little early on the on the prediction,

1158
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: but there it is. So maybe everything else in the film,

1159
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,919
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of time. Like most other things, though,

1160
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: I think they did not correctly predict miniaturization. So everything

1161
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: is very big. So obviously, as we were talking about earlier,

1162
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: one of the huge themes dealt with in this movie

1163
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: is the concept of artificial intelligence, especially if you consider

1164
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: it a story about intelligence itself, you know, biological intelligence

1165
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: and then machine intelligence. This is this is one of

1166
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: the key features of the story. And as we said before,

1167
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: How nine thousand, the computer is somehow the most interesting

1168
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: character in the movie, Like, it has much more interest

1169
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: things to say than the people do. Yeah, and I

1170
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 1: feel far more for him when he essentially dies than

1171
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: the actual human characters who die only one of whom

1172
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: we get to know at all and then very barely.

1173
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: And I've probably feel more about how is death than

1174
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,919
Speaker 1: I do about you know, the nameless nameless eight that's

1175
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: beaten to death. You know, I wonder if exactly what

1176
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 1: you're feeling their empathy for a computer more so than

1177
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: your felly human being is uh. I have to wonder

1178
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: if maybe that's intentional to and supposed to make us

1179
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: a little worried. Well, like I said earlier, we do

1180
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 1: not even see that one human death. We see the

1181
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: the how controlled e V a pod moving towards him,

1182
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: and then the next shot is are the are the

1183
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: pod and the human that the corpse just tumbling through

1184
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: the void. Well, I mean even the characters say in

1185
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: the movie Pool, the character who gets killed by how

1186
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: says at one point in this BBC interview from the spacecraft,

1187
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: he says, he's just like a six member of the crew.

1188
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: You very quickly get adjusted to the idea that he talks,

1189
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: and you think of him really just as another person.

1190
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: And I think that that is in a sense quite literal,

1191
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: that there is this risk that we think of machines

1192
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: as people, and research is born that out. I mean,

1193
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: there have been tests that if a machine talks, if

1194
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: it uses language, if it uses social conventions, do people

1195
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: start to treat it like a person. And I haven't

1196
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: read this research in a while, but last time I

1197
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: checked in on it, I mean it seemed like the

1198
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: consensus was, yes, we very easily, quite readily start attributing

1199
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: human characteristics to inanimate objects if they just talk and

1200
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: stuff like that, If they they look like an animal

1201
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 1: or a person, smiley face on it, yeah, and you

1202
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: begin to feel bad if somebody gives it a kick, Yeah,

1203
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 1: that's a person, Noel, I mean, think about uh, if

1204
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: you ever watched those Boston Dynamics videos where there are

1205
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: these four legged robots that walk around in the parking

1206
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: lot and stuff, and somebody coming by kicking. Yeah, somebody

1207
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: kicks it to see if it can keep its balance,

1208
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 1: because they're they're testing its locomotor capabilities, like can it

1209
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: stay on its feet if somebody tries to throw it off?

1210
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: But when I see that, I'm like, what a mean person?

1211
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: How could you kick that animal like that? And it's

1212
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: a robot. This is a huge blind spot for the

1213
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: human mind. And it could be that they were anticipating

1214
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 1: this kind of research, I mean before it was really

1215
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: even out that that Kubrick and Clarke may have been

1216
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 1: trying to make a point that like, we very easily,

1217
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: uh fall victim to thinking of machines as people if

1218
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: they even resemble people in the barest sense, such as

1219
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: speaking like a human, or or seeming to think like

1220
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: a human, or just having that one focal point, that

1221
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: red light that seems to be an eye, yeah, just

1222
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: giving it the eye. If it didn't have the red

1223
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: light and just talked, I wonder how if we would

1224
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: feel the same way. Another thing about how that that's

1225
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: kind of disturbing is that how describes itself himself. However

1226
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: you characterize, I don't know. I think he sort of

1227
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: presents himself as male gendered. I guess how says that

1228
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 1: he is quote by any practical definition of the words

1229
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: fool proof and incapable of error. That seems like a

1230
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: bad impression to give an AI. You know, you shouldn't

1231
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: teach him to think that way. When people think that way,

1232
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: or express themselves that way, or tweet that way, we

1233
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: we instantly say there's something wrong with that person. Yeah.

1234
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: I mean you would think that any good computer program,

1235
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: especially one is complex and difficult to understand as a

1236
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: conversational AI module, should have debugging features like it should

1237
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: be aware of the fact that it can malfunction, and

1238
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: should have built in processes for rooting out malfunction and

1239
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: fixing it. Yes, um, I mean. The only other scenario

1240
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 1: I can think of is that if it is important,

1241
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 1: as it is on this discovery message, where it's in

1242
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 1: charge of looking after everyone's life, then perhaps it is

1243
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 1: advantageous to lean into sort of the godlike qualities of

1244
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: how that how, of course how didn mistakes because of

1245
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 1: how it makes a mistake, then we're all dead. But

1246
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: I think Hal is actually a very good early vision

1247
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: of AI. I mean that this again, this was back

1248
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 1: in the sixties and computers were not like they are today.

1249
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: It might have been harder to imagine they would ever

1250
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: get there. But there's a lot that's smart about the

1251
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: way How is characterized as an AI that goes an

1252
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: AI that goes off the rails and becomes murderous because

1253
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: they don't go the terminator direction. It's like, you know, oh,

1254
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: I've got to I've got to eliminate humanity. HOW is

1255
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: just trying to do its job. But we're also and

1256
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: we're also not privy to like all the read like

1257
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: How didn't set there and saying, look, yeah, I killed him,

1258
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: but this is why I killed him, This is why

1259
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 1: I killed all these these individuals as well. Like it's

1260
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,959
Speaker 1: it's left for us to try and guess at what

1261
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: the what the what the full you know, rationale there

1262
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: is in the computers thinking or at least and that's

1263
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 1: the thing that's explored more in the book. But but

1264
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 1: but I love how it isn't in the film because

1265
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: there is this this sense it was like we can

1266
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: we can try and imagine what it is, what is

1267
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: going on? In how's mind. But then ultimately, to what

1268
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: extent does that match up with the computer process that's

1269
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: taking place the actual compute. Well, this is a great question,

1270
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: the question of AI psychology, because normally, in order to

1271
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: understand a computer program, what you would do is you'd

1272
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: want to go and look at its code and see

1273
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: what its code is doing. But obviously a program as

1274
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: complex as a conversational artificial intelligence is not. You can't

1275
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: really analyze it that way, right because it's probably been

1276
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if they knew this at

1277
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 1: the time, but based on the way that we train

1278
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 1: machines like this today, they go through like machine learning,

1279
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: through say like deep neural networks, which produce rules that

1280
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: generate outcomes that match the outcomes you try to train

1281
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: them toward. But eventually these the rules they generate are

1282
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 1: kind of opaque to us, like it's hard for us

1283
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 1: to understand why they're doing what they're doing. They can

1284
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 1: train themselves to produce the kind of output we want,

1285
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: but you know, they're sort of a black box to us,

1286
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: just like other minds are in a way, like you

1287
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:08,839
Speaker 1: can't see inside somebody else's mind and understand what's happening.

1288
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 1: You can only judge by their external behavior, and so

1289
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 1: we have processes like psychology where we try to understand

1290
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,639
Speaker 1: people's motivations. And at some point you've got to wonder

1291
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,639
Speaker 1: if the best way of understanding and artificial intelligence will

1292
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: not be through looking at its code and what it's doing,

1293
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: because it's just too complex for us to understand and

1294
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 1: we don't get what the rules are. Instead, you'll have

1295
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 1: to make inferences based on machine psychology. I'm sure there

1296
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 1: are some wonderful examples of this. I'm gonna put this

1297
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: out to our sci fi readers out there, but I

1298
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: wonder has there been is there? Are there? Are there

1299
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: fictional like AI psychologists that pop up in sci fi? Oh? Absolutely?

1300
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: Uh in I robot? Oh of course, how could I

1301
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: forget all of them, all of them robots. What's her name,

1302
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: Susan Calvin? Is that right? I think she's a robot psychologist? Yes,

1303
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,640
Speaker 1: I remember I read all of these when I was

1304
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 1: in junior high and I was was one of these

1305
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 1: times where like now, I don't do this, but at

1306
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 1: the time I always would make a distinctive choice in

1307
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: which actor I was casting as uh as a given part,

1308
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 1: and so I always chose to cast her as Sigourney Weavers,

1309
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 1: so oh yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. I mean

1310
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 1: it also shows my limitations of of casting out uh

1311
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: stories in your mind when you've only seen, you know,

1312
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 1: so many different sci fi films as a kid. Well,

1313
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: I think she would make a great doctor Susan Oh yeah,

1314
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: but yeah it is Susan Calvin, that's her name. Yeah,

1315
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,520
Speaker 1: and she's a robot psychologist. So no, this has absolutely

1316
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: been explored in science fiction before. I mean, I wonder,

1317
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if this will literally be at some point

1318
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 1: the best way we have of understanding what an AI

1319
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 1: is doing, because it'll be too complex and too opaque

1320
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 1: to try to understand it a mechanistic level. We have

1321
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: to understand it like get the get the gestalt in

1322
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 1: the same way that a psychologist would from interviewing a person. Yeah.

1323
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 1: So I guess what I'm trying to imagine here and

1324
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 1: again this is or have something that does exist in

1325
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 1: a sci fi story somewhere. Would you have a situation

1326
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 1: where you have a lengthy space flight and you have

1327
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: on one hand the AI that is managing the people

1328
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: and looking for psychosis or any other kind of mental

1329
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,600
Speaker 1: problems in the humans. But then you also have to

1330
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: have a human or a portion of the human population

1331
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 1: whose whole job is to just watch the AI and

1332
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 1: make sure the i AI isn't my malfunctioning, And so

1333
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: you end up having to have this careful balance of

1334
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: both sides looking for signs of essentially mental illness. Well, yeah,

1335
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: you you can imagine a kind of like a talk

1336
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: therapy regime for an AI, just to make sure that

1337
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:42,480
Speaker 1: it's emotionally stable, that it's you know, that it's experiencing

1338
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 1: mental health, to recognize signs and symptoms of I don't

1339
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: know what you would call it in AI, but the

1340
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:52,360
Speaker 1: AI equivalent of delusion or hallucinations or anything else that

1341
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 1: could be worrying. Quick fun fact here, it's it's mentioned

1342
01:11:55,840 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: in the film that how became operational in Okay, which

1343
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 1: which I love that because that that makes everything even

1344
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 1: feel feel even more um like. That's the date that

1345
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: makes me sad as opposed to two thousand one. Cinematically,

1346
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 1: nine two, I would say is the first year of

1347
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties, because in a in a cinematic time scale,

1348
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,679
Speaker 1: nineteen nine we're still the eighties. Yeah, and ninety two

1349
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: I was looking this up. Sort of a terrible year

1350
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 1: in actual science fiction, as it gave us such let's say,

1351
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 1: challenging to love films as Alien three, and Alien three

1352
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 1: is the best film I'm gonna list here because it

1353
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: also this is also the year that gave us Universal Soldier,

1354
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 1: Free Jack, the lawnmower Man, Memoirs of an Invisible Man.

1355
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 1: Haven't seen it, John Carpenter joint. It's not a good one. Yeah.

1356
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it at the time, but I was like

1357
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: a child. Uh. And then a solar crisis. I don't

1358
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: know it. Oh, very problematic production history. Also split second,

1359
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 1: don't know this one second it's a ba Rugger Howard

1360
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: running round in sewers with monsters. It's actually it's kind

1361
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: I'm on board, yeah, but put me in that sewer.

1362
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 1: There were no certainly no contenders for the crown of

1363
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:10,720
Speaker 1: two thousand one of Space Odyssey in but speaking of

1364
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: Alien three, I mean, I would say Alien is another

1365
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,679
Speaker 1: franchise where you do absolutely see echoes of two thousand

1366
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 1: Space Odyssey, you see, I mean, it's a very different

1367
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: kind of story, but you absolutely see the legacy of

1368
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 1: the way it changed our vision of space travel and

1369
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 1: space exploration and UH and kind of the deep, the

1370
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,679
Speaker 1: mystery of of the world beyond to one more question

1371
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: about how How claims to be conscious? Do you believe him? Robert?

1372
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,680
Speaker 1: Is he conscious? I? In watching the film, I was

1373
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 1: definitely thinking about this. Uh when I when How brought

1374
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 1: it up? Uh? You know, in a large part due

1375
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 1: to our recent topics about consciousness. I keep coming back

1376
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 1: to the eye, the eye of How. You know, we

1377
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: spent a lot of times zooming in on it. Uh.

1378
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 1: There's an implied focus of attention there is How is

1379
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 1: watching things, observing things, watching the Uh. The two crew

1380
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 1: members uh speak, reading their lips as they're essentially plotting

1381
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: against him. How has enormous computing power obviously, but does

1382
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:13,440
Speaker 1: seem capable of focus, focusing his attention on given problems,

1383
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 1: people in situations. So if you lean towards an explanation

1384
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: of of human consciousness that is more about focused attention

1385
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 1: attention schema theory, and you know the use of limited

1386
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:30,719
Speaker 1: cognitive um mechanisms to to to tackle any given problem

1387
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 1: or scenario, then then I buy the idea that How

1388
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 1: is conscious. Well, I don't know, I mean, I don't

1389
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:40,639
Speaker 1: know if it's he's conscious by necessity or by design,

1390
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,600
Speaker 1: if you're looking at it in this lide though, I

1391
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 1: very much am persuaded by the idea that consciousness has

1392
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: something deep to do with attention, uh, from a from

1393
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: a brain structure standpoint. But at the same time, I

1394
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 1: don't know if focus and attention is enough for consciousness,

1395
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: because you can imagine just making an automated security camera

1396
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,720
Speaker 1: that tracks things, so you wouldn't assume that that thing

1397
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 1: was conscious. So it seems very true to me that

1398
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: consciousness in humans definitely has something strong to do with attention,

1399
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: But I don't know if just the ability to focus

1400
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 1: and give attention to things creates consciousness. It's true now,

1401
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 1: but then you know another thing that comes up in

1402
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 1: all of this. It's just the question. I believe this

1403
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 1: is the question that I I asked Max tech mark

1404
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 1: in in my interview with him from previous episode. Uh,

1405
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 1: is it possible? Would you would you be able to

1406
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 1: have a super intelligent machine? Would you be able to

1407
01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: have a how nine thousand that wasn't conscious or his

1408
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: consciousness essential to the too to its function? That's a

1409
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 1: great question. Obviously that's not something we know the answer to,

1410
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 1: but it's it's interesting to wonder if, yeah, if there

1411
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,560
Speaker 1: could be such a thing as great intelligence without consciousness.

1412
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:58,320
Speaker 1: Is How quote unquote conscious because How has to be

1413
01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:01,439
Speaker 1: conscious to do what he does? Or is it all

1414
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,840
Speaker 1: about making the humans comfortable, giving the humans something that

1415
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: they can relate to and have a conversation with. Yeah,

1416
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 1: So it would be a great irony if the designers

1417
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: of How made him act like he is conscious to

1418
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 1: make the crew members more comfortable around him, make him

1419
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 1: seem more like a person that they can get along with.

1420
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,599
Speaker 1: But in fact, the irony is that when David Bowman

1421
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:26,599
Speaker 1: has to go kill How, How begs for his life

1422
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 1: because he simulates consciousness. He says, I'm afraid that's such

1423
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 1: a heartbreaking moment because he says that towards the very end. Yeah,

1424
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 1: and he says it over and over again. Yeah, And

1425
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 1: it kind of makes me hate David Bowman a little bit, Like,

1426
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: I know, I know How dis killed about people, but

1427
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 1: I'm still kind of like, Ah, Bowman, you have no

1428
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:46,799
Speaker 1: chill where you're You're falling for those sli machine appeals

1429
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: that they're getting under your skin. They were they were

1430
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 1: I mean, in many ways, How is like a child,

1431
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 1: and you know, he's he's a very he's a different

1432
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 1: type of child. He has a capable there's a calmness

1433
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: and a reason to him that you generally did not

1434
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 1: find in Ail that is far more emotional. But but yeah,

1435
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 1: there's the there is this childlike element. So it's like

1436
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:07,760
Speaker 1: Bowman is killing a child, especially towards the end when

1437
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:10,599
Speaker 1: he is he's singing Daisy. Yeah, he's singing a song.

1438
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's it's incredibly unerving. Uh. And that scene

1439
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 1: is mostly remembered when people make jokes about it, now,

1440
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: like that's the primary context in which that scene comes up.

1441
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 1: But if you watch it in the context of the movie,

1442
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 1: it is a deeply disturbing, weird, uh surreal scene. It

1443
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:31,639
Speaker 1: kind of makes it takes you out of your body

1444
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: in a way. Yeah, alright, so we're beginning to run

1445
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: out of time here. We should probably talk if you

1446
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 1: should probably talk about those aliens that Oh yeah, there's

1447
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 1: any kind of the entire movement of the plot. So

1448
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 1: of course there's the huge question of of what is

1449
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: happening at the end of the movie after David Bowman

1450
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 1: goes through the stargate. Uh, and he's in that room

1451
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: with the weird, you know, neo classical furniture and the

1452
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,719
Speaker 1: paintings and he and he turns into the Star Child.

1453
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: What is happening there? Uh? On one hand, I can

1454
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 1: definitely see that the creators try to resist explaining literally

1455
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 1: what's happening there. It might be that they don't have

1456
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 1: a literal answer. There is one audio clip that is

1457
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: supposedly of Kubrick, but I think it's unconfirmed whether it's

1458
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 1: Kubrick or not. But it's been alleged, well it was.

1459
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: I think it was a recording supposedly made by a

1460
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 1: filmmaker who was doing a documentary and interviewed and and

1461
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 1: claimed to have interviewed Kubrick, and was released many years later.

1462
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: But if this clip of Cooper talking is actually genuine,

1463
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: he explains, you know, he says, like I've been resistant

1464
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: to explaining the ending, but if you must know, basically

1465
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 1: what's happening is that Bowman has been put into a

1466
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 1: kind of cosmic zoo. Uh. It is a place where

1467
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 1: he can be observed by these creatures from you know,

1468
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 1: galactic civilization, and the zoo is it has this sort

1469
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: of like inaccurate historical furniture. They've tried to create an

1470
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:00,600
Speaker 1: environment that he would think was pretty like mulating his

1471
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 1: natural environment. So they have this like French you know,

1472
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 1: kind of furniture and stuff like that, and uh, and

1473
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,040
Speaker 1: it's kind of in the same way that like a

1474
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:11,559
Speaker 1: human zoo might put a tiger in a cage with

1475
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 1: something kind of roughly approximating its natural environment, but not

1476
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 1: in a very not in a very accurate way. I like,

1477
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 1: I like this explanation. I mean, of course, it inevitably

1478
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: reminds me of Billy Pilgrim and slaughter House five. Very

1479
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 1: different type of zoo, very different, very different story entirely,

1480
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:33,880
Speaker 1: but but ultimately the same scenario. Let's just put him

1481
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,679
Speaker 1: in here and uh watch him go. And then of course,

1482
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,840
Speaker 1: the the alleged Kubrick in this recording says that after

1483
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:43,879
Speaker 1: they're sort of finished with him, after after they've finished

1484
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 1: observing him, they transform him into some kind of god,

1485
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 1: into some kind of super being and send him back

1486
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: to Earth. Uh, and that that he you know that

1487
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 1: Kuber says, this is something that happens in a lot

1488
01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:56,880
Speaker 1: of myths, which is very true. You know, like the

1489
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:00,519
Speaker 1: human gets the apotheosis kind of near of the human

1490
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 1: gets transformed into a star. Heavenly being or God or

1491
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 1: demi God, and look at what they can do now. Yeah,

1492
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 1: And I know that this idea is more born out

1493
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 1: in the literature and in Clark's writings, But at the

1494
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 1: same time, I I can't watch the final portions of

1495
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 1: the film without thinking of it and contemplating it more

1496
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:21,400
Speaker 1: as a almost kind of a Riddle of the Sphinx

1497
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:27,080
Speaker 1: kind of moment, like having this encounter with this deadly

1498
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 1: potentially deadly at least powerful uh in human force, and

1499
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,600
Speaker 1: in doing so you are contemplating You're just forced to

1500
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 1: contemplate the nature of man because there is this sense

1501
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 1: of it is kind of like the real l of

1502
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 1: the Sphinx, where you're seeing Bowman progressively age and go

1503
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:48,280
Speaker 1: through at least the remaining phases of human existence and

1504
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 1: then well and then if you count the baby and

1505
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 1: kind of coming back around to the first model. Well,

1506
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 1: I like. So the model of change that I like

1507
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 1: in that scene is sort of similar to what we

1508
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: were talking about with Bert's interpretation of what happens with

1509
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 1: the monolith and the ape like creatures. So the ape

1510
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:09,720
Speaker 1: like creatures see the monolith and it's not even necessarily

1511
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: that it does something to their brains physically to change

1512
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 1: them into smarter organisms or something. Is just seeing. It's

1513
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 1: just the inspiration, the experience of what that shape is

1514
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:23,640
Speaker 1: like that inspires them to pick up the bone. I

1515
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: like that interpretation. And so what if at the end

1516
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 1: it's it's you know that to the millionth power, it's

1517
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 1: that David Bowman has seen such things. He's been He's

1518
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:37,919
Speaker 1: experienced such a different reality than he thought was possible

1519
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:41,320
Speaker 1: in the presence of these aliens with all their technological power,

1520
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 1: that he is in a sense transformed the same way

1521
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:48,559
Speaker 1: that the ape like creatures are transformed, but just by

1522
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 1: what they've seen. Yeah, I mean he probably saw colors

1523
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 1: that don't exist in the real world world for like

1524
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 1: a thousand years there in that segment. So yeah, I

1525
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 1: like that in interpretation as well. But there is a

1526
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 1: sense of information. I mean, obviously he does become something else,

1527
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 1: sort the thing that was Bowman becomes this new entity. Uh.

1528
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:09,679
Speaker 1: In a sense when he comes back and looks over

1529
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:11,800
Speaker 1: the earth, what is that? Is he there in a

1530
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 1: benevolent way, in a malevolent way? What's he going to do?

1531
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:16,719
Speaker 1: I think that was this kind of a great riddle

1532
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 1: to uh. To close out the episode on like what

1533
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:22,400
Speaker 1: what is he going to do? What? What is the

1534
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:26,879
Speaker 1: what is this next phase and human evolution going to produce?

1535
01:22:27,360 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 1: You know, what will the the higher human form be?

1536
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 1: Like what will it be? Uh? Would be as dangerous

1537
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: and self destructive? Is what we have now? Or you know,

1538
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:40,280
Speaker 1: in which case the Bowman starchild is is a destroyer

1539
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:45,679
Speaker 1: returning to his birth world? Or is human Is humanity

1540
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 1: going to become something nobler, in which case he is

1541
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 1: returning as a savior. Or is it going to transcend

1542
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:55,840
Speaker 1: our physical forms altogether? Is our future a future of

1543
01:22:55,960 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 1: information alone? Do we become intelligence in some way rather

1544
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 1: than becoming a biological species? These are all great questions

1545
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 1: And one of the great things about two thousand one

1546
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 1: what makes it a great movie is that it forces

1547
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 1: us to ask these kinds of questions. Yeah. Absolutely, So

1548
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 1: it's one for the ages man. All right. As we

1549
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,800
Speaker 1: close up, I will say, Uh, there was a little

1550
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:19,680
Speaker 1: bit I wanted to discuss about the idea of an

1551
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 1: alien civilization storing a monolith on the other side of

1552
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 1: the moon, but I think we talked about it a

1553
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 1: little bit in our Ancient Aliens episode. Uh, there there

1554
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:31,000
Speaker 1: was some some some earlier writings from K Carl Sagan

1555
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 1: where he actually referenced um Um Clark and said, oh, well,

1556
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:37,479
Speaker 1: this is actually a pretty good idea of how an

1557
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 1: alien civilization might have left a sentinel for us to

1558
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:47,640
Speaker 1: encounter should we reach a certain level of technological advancement. Unfortunately,

1559
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:50,400
Speaker 1: we have come across no such artifacts. No, we have not,

1560
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 1: but we do have two thousand and one, which is

1561
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:55,080
Speaker 1: a really good movie. This is the kind of thing

1562
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:57,799
Speaker 1: we might want to leave on the dark side of

1563
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 1: of of of a lunar body for another civiphlization to discover.

1564
01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:04,680
Speaker 1: All right, So, if you want to listen to more

1565
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:06,720
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over

1566
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:08,720
Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where

1567
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:12,200
Speaker 1: we'll find all of the episodes, including that Ancient Aliens

1568
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 1: episode that we mentioned there, uh and all these episodes

1569
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:21,600
Speaker 1: that have dealt with consciousness, AI, space travel, micro gravity,

1570
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,240
Speaker 1: you name it. Uh. And you also find links out

1571
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:26,920
Speaker 1: there very social media accounts such as Facebook and Twitter

1572
01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:29,639
Speaker 1: and Instagram. And as always, if you want to support

1573
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:31,840
Speaker 1: the show, the best thing you can do is rate

1574
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:34,559
Speaker 1: and review us wherever you have the ability to do so.

1575
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our wonderful audio producers, Alex

1576
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 1: Williams and Tarry Harrison. If you want to get in

1577
01:24:40,760 --> 01:24:43,240
Speaker 1: touch with us directly with feedback about this episode or

1578
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:47,559
Speaker 1: any other, with the suggestions for a future topic, or

1579
01:24:47,720 --> 01:24:49,800
Speaker 1: just to say hi, let us know where you listen from,

1580
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 1: you can email us at blow the Mind at how

1581
01:24:52,600 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

1582
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com?

1583
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:21,600
Speaker 1: They f