1 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: In today's episode of two Percent, I am speaking with 2 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Sam ki Yonas. Sam as a journalist and author. He 3 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: is probably best known for his work covering drug addiction, 4 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: the opioid and meth epidemics, and the unraveling of American communities. 5 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: But he recently got a bit burnt out on all 6 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: that sort of negative, depressing stuff and he started looking 7 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: for people finding fulfillment through hard work that doesn't offer 8 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: a quick reward, a quick payoff, money, or fame. And 9 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: he found it in the Tuba, of all places. So 10 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to speak to Sam because his books, I 11 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: think are a big metaphor for this modern world we 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: live in where we can get all these rewarding things quickly, cheaply, 13 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: but they often heard us in the long run. 14 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: Sam, Welcome to the show. 15 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 3: Michael, great to be with you. 16 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on and for 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 4: your support of the Tuba book. 18 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: How did you start reporting on drugs? 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 4: Well, it really it's a strange thing, but I mean 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 4: I lived in Mexico for ten years. 22 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 3: I was a reporter down there. 23 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 4: My first two books were about Mexico, so my job 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 4: was really to go out into the provinces to the 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 4: states far away, the Mexican villages and stuff where particular, 26 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 4: they began to focus on immigration. And then I came 27 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 4: back to work for the La Times in two thousand 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 4: and four, and it was a year after that that 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 4: the Savage drug War kicked off. But I was really 30 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 4: writing about immigration because I thought that was most important story, 31 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 4: really much more important than drugs at that time. And 32 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 4: I also didn't want to write about drugs because it 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: was very dangerous. 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 3: I didn't have anybody backing me up. 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 4: So when I was at the La Times and I 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 4: had people back me up, began to write about this. 37 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 4: And at one point I remember a woman, a DEA agent, 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 4: supervising agent in Phoenix, told me, we are now seeing 39 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 4: this would have been two thousand and eight. 40 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: Or nine, I think nine. 41 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 4: We are now seeing huge amounts, new amounts of heroin. 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 4: We're seizing new amounts of we haven't seized these quantities 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 4: of heroin in thirty years. 44 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 3: And I'm like, Wow, that's wild. Who would be using 45 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 3: heroin again? And why you know? 46 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 4: And that's really what got me into my first book, Dreamland, 47 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 4: about the opioid epidemic, because what I learned along the 48 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 4: way was the reason why we had so much addiction 49 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 4: to heroin was because of this brand new revolution really 50 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 4: in pain management in American medicine that said you now 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 4: should use almost unrestricted amounts of opioid painkillers, narcotic pain 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 4: prescription painkillers in a way that medicine. 53 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 3: Never ever used before. 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 4: And also seemed to me that no one had written 55 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 4: in a comprehensive way about the opioid epidemic at the 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: time and how addiction to these pain pills, which include 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 4: opioid painkillers, would then lead to heroin, which is another 58 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 4: opioid drug. 59 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: You know, beyond the fact that we had this sort 60 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: of revolution and how pain was treated in the US, 61 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: do you feel like there were underlying cultural conditions in 62 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: the US at the time that made people want to 63 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: do drugs in the first place. 64 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: Yes, answer your question. 65 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 4: One is the most basic was a kind of a 66 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 4: shredding of community that did that had been happening probably 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 4: since the eighties, but really kind of accelerat and that 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 4: is uh. And and this was in rich areas and 69 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 4: poor areas and middle class it didn't it didn't really matter. 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 4: It's kind of pretty much across the board in the 71 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 4: United States, where you had all these people, all Americans, 72 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 4: just got gradually got used to not being with each 73 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 4: other in one way or another. And this was a 74 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 4: gradual thing, took some time, but we stopped investing in 75 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 4: things that brought us together cost too much tax money. Uh. 76 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 4: In some areas, job loss and disintegration of a community. 77 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 4: People atomized that way. But whatever it was, we became 78 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 4: a far more lonely isolated country. One of the symptoms 79 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 4: then was a drug drug addiction. However, I would say 80 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 4: also we were watching the development of a of a 81 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 4: corporate economy of isolating an addictive products and services. Of course, 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 4: junk food and all of that is number one. Starts 83 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 4: with that, I think probably sodas and all that kind 84 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 4: of stuff. But by the time I was writing Dreamland, 85 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 4: and then certainly by the time I wrote my next 86 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 4: book about this topic, The Least of Us, you began 87 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: to see smartphone media and apps and the very toxic 88 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 4: algorithms that seem to be almost diabolical sometimes honestly to me. 89 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: You began to see a widespread addiction to pornography, to 90 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 4: video games. Most recently obviously it's gambling apps, and the 91 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 4: transformation of the gambling industry you wrote about in the 92 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 4: Scarcity Brain. And then on top of that you add 93 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 4: massive prescribing of the most addictive drugs. 94 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: Known to the human species, which are opioids. 95 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you need a population. 96 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: There needs to be some underlying problem or discomfort that 97 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: the substance temporarily fixes. Right, it provides some sort of comfort, 98 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: whatever it might be. If if the society has no problems, 99 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: you're probably not going to have as much of an 100 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: addiction problem. But if there's also not that supply, then 101 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: there's nothing fueling that. So it's like this this collision 102 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: of these two things. 103 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 4: Yes, I think also if you if you allow economic forces, 104 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 4: meaning corporations and whoever free reign to do all that, 105 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 4: then you are you are you know, you're going to 106 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 4: pay a significant price. I would say that we did 107 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 4: not learn our lesson, and we have legalized marijuana in 108 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 4: a in a way that kind of almost replicates the 109 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 4: opioid epidemic. 110 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 3: Now, marijuana should be. 111 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 4: Legal, but there are ways of legalizing it. The details 112 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 4: are the thing, you know, Devils in the details and 113 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 4: all this, and and so we we have we have 114 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 4: not been good at standing in the way of people 115 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 4: who want to make money. 116 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 3: It's almost like almost in our cultural to. 117 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 4: Say, oh you want to make money, create jobs, Oh 118 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 4: go go for it. You know, no matter what damage 119 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 4: that that activity it may actually be creating. 120 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 121 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: And in the In the Least of Us you write 122 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: about how the drug industry changes in a way where 123 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: things become faster, stronger, easier to make. It almost becomes 124 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: drugs used to have to be grown in fields and processed, 125 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: and then it goes into this sort of more lab 126 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: based that really accelerates things. 127 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: So tell us about that a little bit. 128 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: Mexicans figured out the Mexican trafficking world in particular is 129 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 4: very sophisticated, very deeply very uh uh you know, wide, 130 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 4: and have kind of like a lot of division of 131 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 4: labor and been going for for a number of years. 132 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: Figured out that there was this new market. 133 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 4: Before that, trafficers in Mexico never wanted to deal heroine ever, it. 134 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: Was the scuzziest drug. 135 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 4: Nobody liked heroine and they want to do cocaine and 136 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 4: that kind of thing. But now they figured out own 137 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 4: there's this new heroin market out there and they began 138 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 4: to supply that. The guys that I wrote about is 139 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 4: from this one little village were pretty quickly, well within 140 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 4: a within about ten years, overwhelmed by the big cartels. 141 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: And you know. 142 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 4: That's a whole other long story, but but but basically 143 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: you saw that that that transition happened all of a sudden, Wow, heroin, 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 4: we got to. 145 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: Get into that. 146 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 4: Along the way, uh, they discover that that there is 147 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 4: actually a synthetic way of making a very very powerful opioid, 148 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 4: which is known as funnannel. They don't really know what 149 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 4: that's that's what it's called. When they discover it. They 150 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 4: think it's called eroina synthetico, which is what they call it. 151 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 4: But they figure out that the and and they have 152 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 4: already figured out through the production of metham fetament, that 153 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 4: is far more profitable and far less risky to make 154 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 4: your own drugs with chemicals rather than. 155 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 3: Grow them. 156 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: They're like, oh wow, we don't have to harvest poppies 157 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 4: grow poppies, and oh great, this is better. They begin 158 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 4: to shift and so what you begin to see. Really 159 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: it takes a few years, but by the twenty thirteen 160 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 4: fourteen fifteen, you see the entire United States become inundated. 161 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 4: Gradually over the next six five, six, seven years with 162 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 4: two synthetic drugs, which is still the case. Fentanyl may 163 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 4: again no plants involved in either one of these. And 164 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 4: then methem fetament, which they figure out ways to make 165 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 4: that are and the potent that the real thing is. 166 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 4: The supplies are massive, they cover the country and also 167 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 4: highly highly potent. Fentanyl has always been way more potent heroin, 168 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 4: and any form of fentinal you provide is going to 169 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 4: be way far far more more potent and very very dangerous. 170 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: Methum fetament becomes. 171 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 4: More and more potent because they are able to control 172 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 4: the amount of the chemicals they get in through the ports. 173 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 3: Now that's all you care about. Can we get access 174 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 3: to the. 175 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 4: World, come local markets through the shipping ports China principally great, okay. 176 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: And they begin to make. 177 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 4: Quantities of metham fetament that we have never seen. They 178 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: run out of business, all those little meth cooks across 179 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 4: the United States and they take over the entire market, 180 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 4: and they cover the country and drop the price by 181 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 4: ninety percent and reached levels of purity and potency and 182 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 4: metham fetament that the drug has had never equalled. 183 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: And it feels to me, I mean from anecdotes and 184 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: you've written about this that with the potency rising, so 185 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: do the effects on a person's life. So I have 186 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: friends that were meth addicts, and you know, they've done 187 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: it for years, and it was something they often started 188 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: because they had a job that had crazy hours, demanding hours. 189 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: So they're a truck driver there, you know, graveyard shift worker, 190 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: and they would do math. You know, they knew it 191 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: wasn't good for them, but they're going, well, it helps 192 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: me work more than I can earn an income. And yeah, 193 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: there's some repercussions, but okay, and then when you see 194 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: this shift to this new form of math, they wind 195 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: up with mes psychosis, living on the streets for a 196 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: handful of years. They're like, there was this moment where 197 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: you just started. That started happening, happening to everyone, and 198 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: even getting off of it was harder. 199 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: What did you what did you hear about that? 200 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 4: Well, that was in two thousand and eight and nine 201 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 4: is when that really happened. And before that, the meth 202 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 4: the myth that they made in Mexico, the myth they 203 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 4: learned to make meth on used a chemical known as 204 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 4: a federan, which is a decongestant. You find it in 205 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 4: suda fed pil dey congestant pills. It's why you can't 206 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 4: after a while, you couldn't just go into a Costco 207 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 4: or a Walgreens and get suit of fed pills. You 208 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 4: had to sign your life away and all that because 209 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 4: meth dealers would take those pills. It was very laborious, 210 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 4: not terribly efficient, and distill those pills down into a vegerant, 211 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: and from a veterant, combined with other chemicals, they would 212 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 4: make metham futtament. Down in Mexico, they gotten effan from 213 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 4: the pharmaceutical industry that was diverted. It was really headed 214 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 4: to the pharmaceutical companies in Mexico. In some portion of 215 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 4: that went to the trafficking world. And then in two 216 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 4: thousand and eight the Mexican government really restricted effteran importations. 217 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 4: The trafficking world shifted to this new it's not a 218 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: new method, it's an old method, but it was new 219 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 4: to them, a method of making metham fetament that evolved chemical. 220 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 4: The principal precursor was no longer a fteran. It was 221 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 4: a chemical called phenal to propein oonne P two P. 222 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 4: Just the P two P method is how it's basically known. 223 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 4: And this method was not a great way of making 224 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 4: metham fetterm. It was smelly, and it tended to explode 225 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 4: more easily than the Federan method. However, it did have 226 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 4: one benefit, and that was you could make P two 227 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 4: P many different ways with different combinations of legal, toxic, cheap. 228 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: Very liberally easily available chemicals. 229 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 4: That meant that the government could not easily crack down 230 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 4: on your production the way it did with a federant 231 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 4: and so you could shift. If the government cracked down 232 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 4: on this method of making PTP, you could shift to 233 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 4: this and to that. There's probably twenty thirty ways of 234 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 4: making PTP, according to chemists I talked to with the DEEA. 235 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 4: So they shifted, and that shift really began in two 236 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 4: thousand and nine. And this is the time when you 237 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 4: begin to see the first cases of the people you're 238 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 4: referring to. I've met few like that as well, where 239 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 4: I was a Matthewser and then all of a sudden 240 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 4: and it was a party drug. It was like I 241 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 4: was everybody's best friend and yak and away all night, 242 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 4: and then all of a sudden, it was sinister, and 243 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 4: I was seeing demons coming out of there, and I 244 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 4: was talking to people who weren't there, and this began 245 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 4: to happen as that myth exploded in quantity, and so many, many, 246 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 4: many people in New Mexico got into it. 247 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 3: The chemicals were never ending, almost. 248 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: Limitless quantities of metham fetament, and they came in and 249 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 4: people began to make it Mexico, and it just marched 250 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: across the country. And you see again the price drop, 251 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 4: the potency rise. But as you say, you also began 252 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 4: to see this transformation of you know, a huge rise 253 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 4: in mental illness, huge rise in homelessness. 254 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 3: To me, this was the remarkable idea. 255 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 4: I started the least of us thinking I'm going to 256 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 4: write about how these guys have been able to produce 257 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 4: so much metham fetament. 258 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 3: That they cover the country and drop the price. 259 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 4: And then along the way, towards the end of the manuscript, 260 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: about to finish it, maybe three four months from finishing it, 261 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 4: I came upon this other element, which was that it's 262 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 4: not only doing that, it's also creating rapid descent into 263 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: essentially symptoms of schizophrenia so much that people in doctors 264 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 4: and nurses and eers cannot tell when you come in 265 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: if you were an organically schizophrenic, or you are a 266 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 4: meth induced schizophrenic. But it began to happen all over 267 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 4: the country, and and doing my research then, but then 268 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 4: after the book came out too, I continue, it's clear 269 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 4: that it is happening all over the country. 270 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it feels like there's this ingredient of more, faster, stronger, cheaper, 271 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: And to me, that is almost a metaphor for our 272 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: times and all these other behaviors substances that people overdo 273 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: that provide some sort of short term relief but get 274 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: them in trouble in the long run. I mean, we'll 275 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: use gambling as an example here. Right, it's I live 276 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: in Las Vegas. If you lived in the country and 277 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: you wanted to gamble, you had to get your butt 278 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: on a plane and you had to fly to Las Vegas. 279 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: You had to go into the casino to make that 280 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: sports bet, and then you had to sit and wait 281 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: for the game to finish three hours and you go, okay, 282 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: I won or I lost, and then you go back 283 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: to Des Moines or wherever the hell it was. Today though, 284 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: to continue this example, sports betting has been spread across 285 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: the country. It's now in phones, so you don't have 286 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: to do the physical act of going somewhere. And even 287 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: the speed of betting has increased in the sense that 288 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: sports betting places, they start to go, oh well, a 289 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: game takes three hours. That's a lot of time between 290 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: when people are making bets. What if we just did 291 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: oh well, now you can bet on like will this 292 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: guy make the next shot? What will the score be 293 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: at the end of this quarter? And so it's just 294 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: this rapid, more faster, stronger and cheaper. And I feel 295 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: like that extends to so many different areas. Where do 296 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: you see this and how do you see this affecting us? 297 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 4: It's really part of what we are seeing that I 298 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 4: was talking about earlier, which is simply the ultra processesation. 299 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: That's a bad term. 300 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 4: I got to figure out on another one, but it's 301 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: ultra processing of supply. You know, you are constantly being prodded. 302 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: To be distracted, which we naturally we. 303 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 4: Evolved to do because if you're not distracted until you 304 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 4: get eaten, you get killed, right, you know, back millions 305 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 4: of years ago whatever, and so gambling new gambling apps 306 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 4: or absolutely that. But then you also get pornography. So 307 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 4: no longer do you have to be in a movie theater, 308 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 4: you know, dared to be to feel the shame of 309 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 4: people watching go into the movie theater. And now you 310 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: can constantly watch the most graphic stuff. And we see 311 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 4: it with marijuana too. So now marijuana that used to 312 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 4: be like seven percent, three percent whatever THC it was 313 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 4: back thirty years ago. Now it's ultra processed into THC. 314 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 4: Evapes and wax and can and gummies and all of 315 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 4: these things, all with the idea of massive hits, immediate, immediate, immediate, 316 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 4: all of this kind of thing. There is an entire 317 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 4: segment of our economy. I think, as I was saying earlier, 318 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 4: it just seems to me to be devoted to creating 319 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 4: the tendency, not creating drug addicts, but creating the tendency 320 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 4: for addiction necessary. 321 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 3: You know. 322 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, So The Least of Us has this subtitle True 323 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: Tales of America and Hope in the time of fentanyl 324 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: and meth. 325 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: So the word hope, why hope? 326 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 4: Part of this was really about me trying to tell 327 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 4: stories of people as bulwarks against what we were just discussing, 328 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 4: this whole you know, processed version of of consumer and 329 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 4: goods and services to make them more addictive. And the 330 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 4: way I wanted I thought was important to highlight was 331 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 4: that people were working in very small ways, nothing magical 332 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 4: or big, solving all our problems. It just solve this 333 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 4: one issue in your neighborhood, or you know, do something 334 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 4: with this old parking lot and turn it into a 335 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 4: baseball field, you know that kind of thing. It's small 336 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 4: steps together with other people together that take a time 337 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 4: to do. 338 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: It's not overnight, it is in no way overnight. 339 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 4: And and and that this is the way you come 340 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 4: to true social change, without without the unintended consequences that rapid. 341 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 3: Sexy, magical answers would give you. That's true. 342 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 4: True social change comes small steps, just the way small 343 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 4: human innovation comes usually in small steps, just the way 344 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 4: human improvement comes usually in small steps, with lots of 345 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 4: hard work and practice and all that. You know. I 346 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 4: wrote about the threat fatonal, math, synthetics, all that kind 347 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 4: of stuff, the addictive qualities of so many products and 348 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 4: so on. I wanted to write about people in the 349 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 4: smallest way, unnoticed, not sexy, just moving forward towards repairing 350 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: or rebuilding community in various towns. 351 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: All right, so you just released a new book the 352 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: perfect tube of forging, fulfillment from the base horn band 353 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: and hard work. And let me just say to the listeners, 354 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to expect when I opened this book. 355 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: I'm not the type of person that reads books about tubas, 356 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: but this book was awesome. So how did you go 357 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: from covering drugs to tubas of all instruments and topics? 358 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: And I will say, let me hearry and say for 359 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: listeners before we start, the book is fantastic. It's so fascinating. 360 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: It was one of those where I read it, I 361 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: go and go tubas, huh, I'm not even sure what 362 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: a tuba looks like or sounds like. And then I 363 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: start reading, I'm like this, this is one of those 364 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: things where you found this subculture and you just went 365 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: all in and you made it something that I would 366 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: never picture myself reading. 367 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: I was just turning pages. It was unbelievable. 368 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 4: So how'd you get thank you? First of all, I 369 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 4: don't play the tuba. I was never in marching band. 370 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 4: I grew up in the seventies man playing guitar like 371 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 4: every single other guy I knew, okay at the La Times, 372 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 4: having a deep background in Mexico speaking Spanish and all 373 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 4: this my job. Part of my job was to write 374 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 4: about the Mexican immigrant community in LA. And one of 375 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 4: the stories I wrote about was how huge and important 376 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 4: the tuba was in the Mexican immigrant world in Los Angeles. 377 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 4: Hit very important, and mostly because a lot of social 378 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 4: life takes place in backyard parties. And one way of 379 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 4: showing you have arrived, you know, kind of a certain 380 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 4: way of economically, certainly socially, is you have a band 381 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 4: with a tuba in it. And the tuba is enormous, 382 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 4: big gold thing, you know. And so it became like 383 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 4: this hugely popular instrument in Mexican LA. And I wrote 384 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 4: that story and then the day came out, a band 385 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 4: director called me. He says, you know what, yeah, so 386 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 4: much so your story is right on the money. We 387 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 4: have been losing. People have been stealing our tubas for 388 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 4: the last whatever had been three or four months. By then, 389 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 4: I had not heard this. I wrote another story about 390 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 4: tubas being stolen from these high schools because it was 391 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 4: so popular. Eventually began to just interview tuba players of 392 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 4: all kinds, nice of Mexicans, but all kinds of tuba players. 393 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 4: Why because I could see that most tuba players loved 394 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 4: what they did, but they loved it without, as you said, 395 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 4: the expectation of any you know, applause, any wealth or 396 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 4: fame or any of that kind of stuff. And generally, 397 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 4: as a journalist, I find if you can find people 398 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 4: like that doing something absolutely for the love of it, 399 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 4: you will find if you stick with them, you will 400 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 4: find some great stories. So as I was writing the 401 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 4: Dreamland book about the opioid epidemic and then fentanyl and 402 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 4: mathma in the Least of Us, I was periodically I 403 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 4: would periodically do interviews so tuba players. 404 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 3: Why I had no plan to write a book. 405 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: I just thought, if I stick with it, something good 406 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 4: is going to happen. And so I interviewed over the 407 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 4: next few years, probably fifteen to twenty eight tuba players. 408 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 4: It wasn't like constant, but and there was this big 409 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 4: file at the back of my computer called Tuba and 410 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 4: I just put all my notes and my tapes and 411 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 4: all that stuff in there. And then The Least of 412 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 4: Us came out, and that was twelve years. That marked 413 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 4: twelve years of writing about grim stuff like addiction and 414 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 4: drug profiteering and all the rest that you would write 415 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 4: about and. 416 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 3: I felt like I needed like I love writing about 417 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: that stuff. 418 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 4: I still love writing about that I still find it 419 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 4: a fascinating topic. But there is a point where I 420 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 4: want to say, I think I need to do something 421 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 4: totally new. And my agent said, well, why don't you 422 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 4: see what kind of book you might be able to 423 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 4: write about that tuba project. You've been kind of half working, 424 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 4: half assed working. I mean it was really not very 425 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 4: focused on it. Just wanted to see what kind of 426 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 4: could learn. 427 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 3: You know. 428 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 4: I had remembered this conversation that I had with this 429 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 4: guy named Bob Carpenter years before in Orlando, Florida, a 430 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 4: NASA scientist and a tuba player for the Orlando Symphony, 431 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 4: who told me about these two perfect tubas, these two 432 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 4: tubas made in York Instrument Company in nineteen thirties and 433 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 4: Grand Rapids, Michigan for a very famous tuba player who 434 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 4: ended up not being able to play them and it 435 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 4: was too fat, basically, and he sold him to one 436 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 4: of them to his student, and his student using this 437 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 4: tuba went on to be one of the greatest tuba 438 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 4: players in the history of the instrument. Arnold Jacobs, who 439 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: then was forty years at the Chicago Symphony and sold 440 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: that horn, and then he bought the other two. 441 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 3: These were two prototypes. 442 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 4: There was only two of them, and the York Instrument 443 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 4: Company went out of business not long after the story 444 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 4: of the Search for the Perfect tuba because nine companies 445 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 4: have tried to make these tubas, replicate these tubas and 446 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 4: really kind of succeeded, but not exactly. It just overtook 447 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 4: my life in this beautiful way. So its not writing 448 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 4: about people pimping out their sister or their girlfriend for dope. 449 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 4: It was people practicing endlessly to get this eight measured. 450 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: Part of this A two Just right, I'm going to 451 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: read you a quote from the book. I found it 452 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: hard to avoid the conclusion that a root of our 453 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: epidemic of drug addiction was a s running of community 454 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: in America, which left us isolated and a loaned and 455 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: vulnerable to addiction. I came to see how marching bands 456 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: in fact create community in this country. They find a 457 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: place for kids of all kinds to thrive, not based 458 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: on their side or speed, but instead on their willingness 459 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: to work hard. What did you learn from some of 460 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: those kids? And I will say, as you're saying this, 461 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: when you think about. You know, if I pick up 462 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: a guitar and start playing when I'm twelve, I can 463 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: go well, if I do that, I could end up 464 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: on some big stage in front of one hundred thousand 465 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: people a tuba player. 466 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: No, no one's. 467 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: Going to know the name of the tuba player in 468 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: our current society. But they keep at it. And there's 469 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: lessons in. 470 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 4: There, absolutely, And I think a lot of the lessons 471 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 4: of what we've already talked about, the importance of hard work, 472 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 4: the importance of attention to detail, and a time of distraction, 473 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 4: focus and attention to detail. Right, it's a collaboration and 474 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 4: time of isolation. Even with people collaborating with people you know, 475 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 4: maybe don't like all the time, still keep on doing. 476 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: It's hard work. 477 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 4: It's discipline, postponed gratification, and a time when immediate gratifications 478 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 4: we all crave. 479 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 3: Apparently I began. 480 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 4: To see too that that is how we evolved as 481 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 4: a species to find that inner feeling that we call 482 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: fulfillment or contentment. We don't, you know, we want that 483 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 4: immediate gratification, but it's so transitory, it just passes quickly. 484 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 4: Every you get a new iPhone, two days later, you 485 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 4: don't really care, right, you know, And and there is 486 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 4: instead this feeling of working very hard without much applause, 487 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 4: until finally you create something, say a big concert you've 488 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 4: been practicing for, and you play it once, really really well, 489 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 4: and it's over and you feel the applause. You have 490 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 4: people coming up slapping you on the back. Wonderful thing, 491 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 4: and then it's over. But it's it's It leaves you 492 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 4: this feeling like of achieved something through hard work. It's 493 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 4: not like buying something which didn't, you know, as somebody 494 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 4: else did the hard work. 495 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 3: You just bought it, you know. And to me all 496 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 3: of this, I began. 497 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 4: To realize that what I had stumbled into and was 498 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 4: writing about fully and fully focused on now was in 499 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 4: fact the opposite of what I had written spent twelve 500 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 4: years writing about. 501 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: The addition is about an opioid, is about the drug. 502 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 4: Stifling that your ability to breathe. That's how you overdose 503 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 4: on an opioid. It just the brain stops breathing. Basically, 504 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 4: Tuba is about nurturing that beautiful column of air so 505 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 4: that you can force it through this big, enormous metal 506 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 4: beast and out. And it comes starts with this horrible 507 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 4: sound through the mouthpiece, going like that, and it comes 508 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 4: out the bell, this gorgeous, powerful sound that will rock 509 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 4: your world, you know, and the bones of everybody in 510 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 4: the listening to it. It seemed to me strangely that 511 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 4: I was writing about something that was like the bulwark 512 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 4: against the thing that I'd spent the last twelve years 513 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 4: writing about isolation and distraction and craving a pleasure, all 514 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 4: leading to addiction on one hand. And here you have 515 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 4: these people who we ignore, we don't pay any attention to. 516 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 3: We plot the athletes on the field. 517 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 4: The kids who are really learning the great lessons are 518 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 4: in the stands playing for those guys out on the field. 519 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 3: This is so beautiful. 520 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 4: It's about sustaining community, about working with others. It's about 521 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 4: working hard and accepting that every progress will be hard 522 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 4: earned and will be small. 523 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: But then you keep on and you keep on. 524 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 4: And there was this one part about a band from 525 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 4: Lopez High School in Real Grand Valley in South Texas 526 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 4: and Brownsville, and they practiced they were selected the first 527 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 4: honor band for all of Texas for from the Rio 528 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 4: Grand Valley, and which was an honor that and they 529 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 4: were terrified that they wouldn't be able to pull it 530 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 4: off and show and represent the value well. And they 531 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 4: practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced for six months 532 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 4: on this program that they were going to perform before 533 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 4: all these music teachers at this big conference and everything. 534 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 4: It was just so powerful what these kids, thirty five 535 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 4: kids or something like that create, And it's still remembered 536 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 4: twenty years later, and all this kind of stuff. But 537 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 4: then I remember this one kid who was late leader 538 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 4: of the French horn section that a week later on campus, 539 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 4: sees the band director. He goes, hey, hey, hey, what's next. 540 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 4: And the guy goes, no, that's it, nothing else. We're done. 541 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 4: He goes, what do you mean we're done? We need 542 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 4: to keep going. We need to practice hard. You know, 543 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 4: he had gotten so enamored with the process of making 544 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 4: sound sound better by small, small increments that he couldn't believe. 545 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 4: He just got used to the beauty of hard work. 546 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 4: And that's what they say. And the one guy said 547 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 4: in the book, don't ever tell the kids this is hard. 548 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 4: They'll rise to whatever level you set, Just don't tell 549 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 4: them it's hard. And what he said later this kid, 550 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 4: now I'm talking to him twenty years later about that concert, 551 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 4: and he says, you know, they wanted that we were 552 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 4: trying to make everything perfect. 553 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if we actually did it. 554 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 4: We did our best, but the idea was we were 555 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 4: working towards something. We got used to working hard towards 556 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 4: that perfection, and what were we trying to do? 557 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 3: Play one thing? Once? 558 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 4: Really well, I used to not know what to say 559 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 4: when parents would come up to me and say, how 560 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: do I keep my kid away from drugs? And I 561 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 4: didn't really have a good answer for that. Now what 562 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,239 Speaker 4: I tell him is, well, you know, I don't know. 563 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 4: I'm no expert, but high school band seems to do 564 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 4: a pretty damn good job. 565 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 3: Am I want to try that? You know? Anyway? I 566 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: get carried away on this stuff sometimes. 567 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: You wrote the two gives kids an unnoticed middle class 568 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: life of nurturing your abilities. But that's why it's the 569 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: same thing. It's pairing life to what we need, not 570 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: what we're told to want and insistently demand. And I 571 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: think what you just said it actually played out in 572 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: this Texas border town you wrote about where there's this 573 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: band director's names al Cortinas, and he arrives down there 574 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: and there's all these kids who are getting sort of 575 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: sucked into the Sinaloon cartel. 576 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 4: Is that right, the golf cartel actually, but yeah, it's 577 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 4: the same idea golf cartel. 578 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: They're almost acting as lookouts. They're making a few hundred 579 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: bucks just providing eyes for the cartels. And he starts 580 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: trying to grab these kids into band, and it saves 581 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: so many of them. 582 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 3: So tell us about that. 583 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 4: Yes, he Al Cortinez is a wonderful, wonderful guy, not 584 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 4: even is still still around. Seventy eight now seventy nine. 585 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 4: He came up in a town that was mightily segregated 586 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 4: Latino white, and it was helped to go to college 587 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 4: and got into band and it changed his life and 588 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 4: he lived he still lives the rest of his life 589 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 4: with this fervent belief in the transformative power of band 590 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 4: to change kids' lives, particularly poor Latino kids. And so 591 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 4: he is teaching at another school in the real Grand 592 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 4: Valley and the band. The superintendent from a school district 593 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 4: nearby Roma, Texas, wants to really revamp the band. The 594 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 4: band is really not good, they've never been any good. 595 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 4: They're really like old beat up instruments on it. They 596 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 4: hire Al and al says, you know, I've been teaching 597 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 4: on the real Grand Valley for a long time. The 598 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 4: economic realities are that most of your kids, almost all 599 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 4: your kids, really will not have enough money to afford 600 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 4: music lessons. 601 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 3: So we need to design a band system that will make. 602 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 4: That will offer lessons as the primary way of getting better. 603 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 4: And the superintendent's all for it, and they devote a 604 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 4: ton of money to the Courtinas what I call the 605 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 4: Courtina system, which is too higher for the entire district. 606 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 4: Ten teachers, each one focusing on one instrument, you know, trumpet, clarinet, saxophone, etc. 607 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 4: And over a period of years, this system with one 608 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 4: teacher guiding kids through from six to twelfth grade. By 609 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 4: the time these kids are in ninth tenth grade, they 610 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 4: are really getting good. And over this, over a period 611 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 4: of years, the Cortinas system transforms Roma, Dinky little Roma Texas, 612 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 4: eleven thousand people in this town. No one in Texas 613 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 4: knows where on the map Roma Texas is. Transforms the 614 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 4: band from Roma Texas into a band that competes head 615 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 4: to head with the white tech suburbs of Boston and Dallas, 616 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 4: Fort Worth and Houston. It's in a remarkable, remarkable story. 617 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 4: Do they ever win outright? Do they ever win top 618 00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 4: band of all is Marching Vandiba. No, they still based 619 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 4: hurdles with regard to size of the band, the amount 620 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 4: of money they have, stuff like that. But that is 621 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 4: not the point. Band is about winning later because band 622 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 4: is only tangentially about It's about music, obviously, and it's 623 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 4: about the difficulties of playing music well together in a group. 624 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 3: But it's not about churning out musicians. It's about turning. 625 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 4: Out kids who who are able to navigate life productively, positively, 626 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 4: with a community basis and so on. 627 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 3: And that's really what you found. I interviewed a bunch of. 628 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 4: Kids from the two thousand and three two thousand and 629 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 4: four Lopez High School band. 630 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 3: I think eight or ten kids. 631 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 4: Every one of them twenty years later was doing really well, 632 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 4: a couple of PhDs. Everybody had a positive point. They 633 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 4: had families, they had they had careers. No one was 634 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 4: about involved in drugs. It was it was just this 635 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 4: wonderful story. They were the middle class. They rose up 636 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 4: out of like migrant poverty. It's these activities you engage 637 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 4: in that at the time seem extraordinarily hard to do, 638 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 4: and we should not hover over kids and so oh yeah, no, no, 639 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 4: no no, don't don't do. 640 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 3: That'll be too hard for you. No no, no. 641 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 4: Let them go through heart, let them go through difficult 642 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 4: let them let them work together. 643 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 3: To go through all of that. Very very important. 644 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: It seems to me, what do you think the sort 645 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: of practical advice for the average listener is, if they're gone, 646 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to pick up a tuba. 647 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 4: So I think for most people, I would say it's 648 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 4: don't ask for easy, don't demand easy, you might get it. 649 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 4: That would be a damaging thing for you. And parents, 650 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 4: don't insist that your kids like this. One one woman, 651 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 4: a parent in Roma, Texas, said, my all, my all, 652 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 4: my friends, They say, doesn't it bother you that your 653 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 4: kids out there practicing marching in the rain, And she said, 654 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 4: as long as. 655 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 3: There's no lightning, I'm good with it. 656 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 4: You know that there's a reason why they are where 657 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 4: they are, and it's because they practice their butts off. 658 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 2: So you go from. 659 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: The opioid epidemic to writing about meth and fentanyl to 660 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: tubas and so, what is the next project for you? 661 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: Because I feel like the trajectory is just who knows 662 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: where it's going to go. 663 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 2: So I want to hear what's next. 664 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the next book is going to be a 665 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 4: biography of Chalino Sanchez, who was the Mexican narco singer 666 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 4: in who started his career really in Los Angeles, not 667 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 4: in Mexico, and. 668 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: Very much a punk rock kind of guy. He just 669 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 3: starts singing. 670 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 4: Everyone tells me he can't sing, and in Mexican context, 671 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 4: you know. 672 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 3: It's very velvety, operatic voices. He sounds like battery acid. 673 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 3: You know. He isn't not very good, but he keeps going. 674 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 4: But he rises out of nowhere, unlettered, no English immigrant, 675 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 4: illegally in the country, and creates this phenomenon of ballads 676 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 4: about drug villages and drug drug involved people, mostly from 677 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 4: his own village or ones nearby, stories he knew, and 678 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 4: he transforms Mexican music becomes one of the most important 679 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 4: musical figures come out of Los Angeles, right up there 680 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 4: with n WA and some. 681 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 3: Of the punk rock bands. 682 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 4: I think that that became very very popular in Los Angeles. 683 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 4: And so he goes back to Mexico to for a 684 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 4: gig where later on after the show, there's a famous meme. 685 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 3: Where he's looking at a note during his show. 686 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 4: The meme is that the note is supposed to say 687 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,879 Speaker 4: something like sing well, because it's gonna be your last time. 688 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 3: Someone threatened to kill him, and that. 689 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 4: Night they cops take him out and anyway he gets 690 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 4: he gets abducted and is found murdered that morning in 691 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 4: an irrigation canal. And after that his his his fame 692 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 4: post mortem fame just explodes. And to this day he 693 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 4: remains the most important musical Mexican musical singer come out 694 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 4: of Los Angeles and one of the most important really 695 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 4: in Mexican, in Mexican music, and it's I got the 696 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 4: In the Tuba book, I wrote one chapter about him, 697 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 4: because he is really responsible for making the tuba so popular. 698 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 4: The tuba was a corny, old fashioned instrument and a 699 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 4: lot of kids before Chalino started singing these really riveting, 700 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 4: almost cinematic stories of how people died and shootouts and 701 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 4: whatnot back in Mexico, and a lot of the times 702 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 4: he recorded those songs with a BANDA banda is is 703 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 4: a form of Mexican music that plays dance music with 704 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 4: marching band instruments, and so the tuba is a very 705 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 4: big deal and that he really transformed the tuba into 706 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 4: this popular instrument that it was not before him, and 707 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 4: it became after his after his death. So that's kind 708 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 4: of how all of this kind of weirdly fits together. 709 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,959 Speaker 1: Before we go, what are three narco courido bands people 710 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: should check out? 711 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 4: Well, the very best band of all all time is 712 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 4: not specifically exclusively a narco corrido band, but I would 713 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 4: say that that Losis del Norte are the best. I 714 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 4: spent a lot of time with those guys when I 715 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 4: was in Mexico. They are the best Mexican binational band 716 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 4: that you can. 717 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 3: Possibly listen to. 718 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 4: And if you want to understand Mexican immigration and the 719 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 4: feelings of Mexican emmorants, just check out the lyrics to Thesigurs. 720 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 4: A certain number of their songs are also narco corridos, 721 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 4: although they don't really focus on that exclusively by any means. 722 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 4: They are the best, and I actually learned a lot 723 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 4: of when I went down to Mexico. I didn't really 724 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 4: speak Spanish, and uh, part of my homework every night 725 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 4: was to take a ticket is a Norte sung home 726 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 4: and transcribe it and and learn it. And this kind 727 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 4: of thing because they're singing very clear. It's actually very 728 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 4: good to use that. I would say. Another good band 729 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 4: to pay attention to only because it teaches, not because 730 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 4: it's narco Corridos, but but because it's right out of 731 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 4: saying Aloa is Banda Perricodo, which is probably like the 732 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 4: top banda. You know, a lot of times the narco 733 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 4: corrido stuff is really vile. I'm not gonna lie. It 734 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 4: is absolutely pornographic. Has become pornographic lately in the last 735 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 4: ten years or so. Charlino had a different approach to it, 736 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 4: which was more reserved spare, you know. But and so 737 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 4: I think much far prefer prefer him. But one band 738 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 4: that you can listen to that I think is reflective 739 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 4: of all this is those Kanes the Tijuana, who were 740 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 4: I'm not sure how much they're around anymore, but they 741 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 4: were in their time, kind of like the up and 742 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 4: comers after Chelley, you know, was killed. 743 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 2: Awesome, great recommendations. 744 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 3: I love those. 745 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 2: Tea Grace, Sam, Yeah the best. 746 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on the show. This is 747 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: an awesome conversation. 748 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I really had a great time, Michael. 749 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 4: Thank you very much for the invitation. It's wonderful you 750 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 4: to do that. Appreciate it. 751 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for watching and listening, and thanks to Sam 752 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. We are in your feeds 753 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: twice a week, so keep an eye out for more. 754 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: As a reminder, we are always open for questions for 755 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: our Ask Michael Anything section, so please drop in any 756 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: questions you have into the comments. You can even email 757 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: them to media media at twopct dot com. Even better, 758 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: if you want to send us a voice memo or 759 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: a video of yourself asking the question, we would absolutely 760 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: love that. We will try to answer as many of 761 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: your questions as possible as always, have fun, don't die, 762 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: class back