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Speaker 1: Michael basically did the same program as anybody in our

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Speaker 1: age groom team until he had already made an Olympic team.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like the Michael Felps programs, the North Bons

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Speaker 1: Park Body Clubs program. This is the Reformed Sports Project,

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Speaker 1: a podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all

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Speaker 1: areas of sports through education and advocacy. I'm Nick Bonacore

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Speaker 1: from the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Joining me today is

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Speaker 1: Bob Bowman, head swimming coach at Arizona State University. Coach

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Speaker 1: Bowman has worked with a talented group of collegiate and

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Speaker 1: Olympic swimmers over the years, including one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: of all, Michael Phelps. I'm excited to talk with him

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Speaker 1: as he has a very unique perspective of working with

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Speaker 1: athletes from age group swimming two professionals. I'd love to

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Speaker 1: have your inside, your perspective on the specialization that's being

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Speaker 1: pushed in like almost the professionalization in kids that are

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Speaker 1: sub twelve years old to play one sport become a specialist.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about the kind of culture that's

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Speaker 1: out there right now. I think there's clearly benefits for

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Speaker 1: kids playing lots of sports and having a wide menu

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Speaker 1: of things to choose from just from a physiological standpoint.

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Speaker 1: We get kids in college these days who can't throw

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Speaker 1: a ball, can't balance, can't do a lot of things

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Speaker 1: because they just didn't play a lot of things when

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Speaker 1: they were growing up. So I feel like it's critical

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Speaker 1: that they do that. And I think what I see

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Speaker 1: in youth sports, particularly in the sport of swimming today,

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Speaker 1: is a lot of programs are training age group swimmers

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Speaker 1: like college swimmers. They're giving them absolutely every tool, every

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Speaker 1: possible modality at a very young age, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's doing them a disservice. See that is such a

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Speaker 1: powerful message. And here's where I'm finding a lot of

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Speaker 1: concern is that you're seeing youth participation numbers in overall

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Speaker 1: sports declining. You're seeing kids being priced out so they

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Speaker 1: can't play. And I firmly believe the greatest thing that

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Speaker 1: you take away from the partist a base in new

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Speaker 1: sports are the life lessons that serve you as a husband, father,

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Speaker 1: wife without questions, and it opens up doors for kids

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Speaker 1: to try other things. What's important about sports is not

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Speaker 1: what you get, it's what you've become in that process,

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Speaker 1: and it's all of the things that successful and well

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Speaker 1: adjusted people need to make their way in life. You

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Speaker 1: learn how to manage yourself, You learn how to set

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Speaker 1: a goal and work for it an intelligent way. You

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Speaker 1: learn how to deal with others, You learn how to

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Speaker 1: work in a team environment. All of these things are

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Speaker 1: critical to your success as a person, not just an athlete,

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Speaker 1: and I think it carries over, like you said, to

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Speaker 1: other things. I'm a big musician. I grew up playing

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Speaker 1: lots of instruments that have a large background in music,

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Speaker 1: and the two things are very, very similar. You're just

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Speaker 1: learning skills which make you a better person. Whether you

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Speaker 1: can play the piano as well as the others, I

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Speaker 1: guess you can figure that out later. Or swim any

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Speaker 1: faster than anybody else, it doesn't really matter at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day. I wasn't a particularly good swimmer,

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Speaker 1: but I was able to learn things and love things

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Speaker 1: about the process of training at the environment of our

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Speaker 1: swimming program that just kept me in at the rest

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Speaker 1: of my life. So you know, it's not all about

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Speaker 1: the end or the result. It's much more about the process.

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Speaker 1: I never played an individual sport. I was a football

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Speaker 1: baseball guy, but my older boys started wrestling four years ago.

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Speaker 1: I knew nothing about it, so I can, for the

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Speaker 1: first time just be a fan. And I realized, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, I might be a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: crazy parent here. So it was I opening to be

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Speaker 1: naive to the sport. And that made me realize that's

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Speaker 1: the way it's supposed to be as a parent, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: I take it a step further and I saw my

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Speaker 1: boys being taken out of their comfort zone. Meaning in

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Speaker 1: baseball and other these pay for play organizations, you pay

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Speaker 1: and your kid gets on the team, he gets on

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Speaker 1: a roster. They don't have to really overcome much adversity nowadays.

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Speaker 1: And when I saw wrestling, I was like, wow, this

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Speaker 1: is stripped down raw. This is real life stuff that

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Speaker 1: they can use later on, whether they become wrestlers or not.

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Speaker 1: So my thought is almost the culture, with pay for

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Speaker 1: play being so expensive and all of these things, it's

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Speaker 1: almost handicapping kids. They're not learning how to overcome any adversity.

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Speaker 1: That's absolutely right, and you see in youth sports today

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Speaker 1: is no one wants their child to fail at anything

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Speaker 1: right or be uncomfortable, which is the single most important

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Speaker 1: lesson you learn, and sport if you ever wanted to

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Speaker 1: swim in the Olympics, the essence of Olympic competition is

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Speaker 1: getting comfortable being uncomfortable. So what you get is you

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Speaker 1: get these kids too. At the first side of adversity,

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Speaker 1: they just shut down. We encourage our guys to solve problems.

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Speaker 1: We build an environment that is full of adversity so

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Speaker 1: that they can overcome these things and become confident, because

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Speaker 1: that's how you get confidence. Nobody gives you confidence. Confidence

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Speaker 1: comes from demonstrated ability under adverse conditions, and when you

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Speaker 1: do that, then you know you can do it in competition.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing how I'm finding. Initially I'm like, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: this is just as a certain couple of sports there

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Speaker 1: and there. No, it's not. This is a cross over

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Speaker 1: every sport. I don't care what it is. The mindset

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Speaker 1: is really the same. It's amazing though, how I'm finding

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Speaker 1: a lot of high level athletes and you can speak

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Speaker 1: to this, and I think it's something that's not talked

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Speaker 1: about enough. Is the mental health aspect of it. If

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Speaker 1: you're thirteen fourteen year old kid, I remember for me

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Speaker 1: it was hard enough developing and being insecure, let alone

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Speaker 1: with Instagram Snapchat, and now the professionalization of sports, like

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Speaker 1: how does that impact a kid? How much more of

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Speaker 1: a microscope visit? It app acts it a lot, And

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Speaker 1: particularly now we have a lot of websites about swimming

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Speaker 1: and thinks for the kids go all the time, and

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Speaker 1: all of these people who know absolutely nothing about the

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Speaker 1: process or development of athletes comment on their performances right

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Speaker 1: and set expectations for them, and they should be able

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Speaker 1: to do this if they did this in certain meat,

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Speaker 1: and it's very detrimental. I myself stopped reading those comments

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Speaker 1: because they say bad stuff about me on there. But

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Speaker 1: look for the kids, it's really bad because you have

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Speaker 1: expectations are really they're kind of like important, and then

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Speaker 1: they're the worst thing in the world at the same time. Right,

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Speaker 1: you want to have some reasonable expectations about where you

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Speaker 1: should go, and your coach you can help you do that.

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Speaker 1: But if you have unrealistic and or things that don't

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Speaker 1: match up with where your ability level or performance level

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Speaker 1: are at a certain time, I think it causes a

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Speaker 1: lot of mental health issues with everyone, not just the kids.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that. What concerns me is that is

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see I really believe sports is an overall

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Speaker 1: micro cosum for the society. Now, I'm not suggesting that,

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Speaker 1: I'm we're trying to do. I mean, hopefully we can

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Speaker 1: make invents and change people's thinking, But you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a micro cosum to where kids are being

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Speaker 1: so sheltered that unstructured play is like a thing of

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Speaker 1: the past. Everything is organized, structured game after game after game.

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Speaker 1: Kids aren't just going out there and playing wreck and

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Speaker 1: having a good time, which I hear from many pros

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Speaker 1: and I know myself that's where you get creative and

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Speaker 1: actually learn how to have a lot of fun. Do

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Speaker 1: you agree with so unstructured play? How can we maybe

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Speaker 1: incorporate that more? Can you try to do that? Well?

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Speaker 1: I don't do this so much in the workouts have now,

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Speaker 1: But when I was going to little kids, we used

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Speaker 1: to do it all the time. We would have a

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Speaker 1: day where we just play games, or we would just

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Speaker 1: see if they could learn at certain skill, and then

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Speaker 1: we have fun with it instead of making everything just

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Speaker 1: like a lesson. Right. I would definitely include that when

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Speaker 1: we were doing it with the younger guys, and I

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Speaker 1: probably should do it more with my older ones. Glad

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Speaker 1: you're reminded me of that. I talked to Jacob Casper,

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Speaker 1: who was an All American wrestler, and I did a

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Speaker 1: post about him. I talked to him least he's the

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Speaker 1: assistant coach at Duke right now, and he said, Nick,

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Speaker 1: once a week, we're incorporating a soccer game, something to

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Speaker 1: keep these kids excited because they're coming to college and

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Speaker 1: they don't have the same movement skills that we did

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Speaker 1: or other kids that by playing multiple sports, He's like,

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Speaker 1: we're almost teaching kids to do things they should have

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Speaker 1: learn when they were eight, nine, ten years old. Completely

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Speaker 1: agree with that. We put some of that stuff in

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Speaker 1: the early season with my college teams were definitely out

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Speaker 1: on the track or doing some things, doing a little running,

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Speaker 1: playing a few games. And we tried to get him

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Speaker 1: to play ultimate frisbee and half the kids can't move,

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Speaker 1: throw and catch. I'm more worried about him getting hurt

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Speaker 1: now because they just not used to doing Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: totally are you. I think it's a great thing. After

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Speaker 1: the break, Coach Bowman and I we'll talk about the

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Speaker 1: science behind youth athlete development and how he designed Michael

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Speaker 1: Phelps training program. I'm Nick bonecor and you're listening to

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Speaker 1: the Reform Sports Project podcast. Welcome back to the Reform

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Speaker 1: Sports Project podcast. I'm Nick Bonacourt, and today we have

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Speaker 1: Bob Boom, head swim coach at Arizona State University. Where

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Speaker 1: we left off, Bob and I were about to dive

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Speaker 1: into how science based training programs helped young athletes developed

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Speaker 1: the right way, both mentally and physically. So there's one

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Speaker 1: thing I really want to touch on with you because

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Speaker 1: I spoke to Frank Bush, and I spoke to several coaches,

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Speaker 1: Jim Calhoun, Mike Fox, he's the head coach at University

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Speaker 1: of North Carolina, and all saying the same thing. You

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Speaker 1: are bought what Jim Calhoun said. I think it's important

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Speaker 1: because a lot of parents, I hear they're chasing the

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Speaker 1: tiger Woods, the Michael Phelps with their kids. Jim Calhoun said,

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Speaker 1: he goes Nick. Nothing supersedes talent. He goes Ray Allen.

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Speaker 1: No matter how much I coached him or not, he

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Speaker 1: was gonna be a star. He was that gift. He

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Speaker 1: was one in a million, like Michael Phelps, like a

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Speaker 1: Tiger Wood Lebron James. But I think people are chasing

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Speaker 1: that and that's not normal. Would you agree with that athlete?

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Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. And you know what, we

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Speaker 1: didn't chase it with Michael Phelps. It just happened. Michael

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Speaker 1: basically did the same program as anybody in our age

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Speaker 1: group team until he had already made an Olympic team.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like the Michael Phelps program. It was the

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Speaker 1: North Baltismore quantity club program. After he got it pretty

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Speaker 1: good and was starting to get to the top three

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Speaker 1: or four percent of world performance, he probably did some

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Speaker 1: more specialized things. But until then he didn't train twice

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Speaker 1: the day. Until he was almost fifteen years old, he

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Speaker 1: was just in the regular program. Quite frankly, we were

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Speaker 1: trying to keep him from turning into a star. We

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Speaker 1: wanted him to be as normal as possible for as

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Speaker 1: long as possible. So we talked a lot about the

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Speaker 1: physical attributes, you know, with youth athletics and kids playing

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Speaker 1: various sports and developing the whole body and such. But

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Speaker 1: what I wanted to ask you about and hear your inside,

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Speaker 1: is I hear a lot from baseball coaches, in particular

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Speaker 1: about the signs that's involveds data and analytics that's become

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Speaker 1: part of the game and all these things, and at

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Speaker 1: times it could be used in a negative way, but

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Speaker 1: in the right hands, it's really how really helpful, you know,

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Speaker 1: with people who know what the hell they're doing. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about the science, the way the human body works,

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Speaker 1: and all this stuff in development, specifically with dealing with

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Speaker 1: mp you know, Michael felt, well, you know, in swimming

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Speaker 1: it works on a different many different levels. So you

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Speaker 1: have the biomechanic area, so that's got the stroke technique,

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Speaker 1: how certain limbs work as levers, how you apply pressure

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Speaker 1: to certain points, all of those things. The one that

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Speaker 1: we've probably delved in the most was the physiology, right

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Speaker 1: and the physiology of training. We felt like we wanted

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Speaker 1: everything we did to be based on sound principles of

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Speaker 1: science in terms of training, and we developed a program

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Speaker 1: over the long term that really addressed what we thought

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Speaker 1: were critical windows during his growth patterns or any athletes

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Speaker 1: growth patterns, so that we were addressing the appropriate type

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Speaker 1: of training at the appropriate age developmental age. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you brought that up because I hear Eric Backitt, who's

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Speaker 1: the head baseball coach in Michigan. Um, you're a former

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Speaker 1: Michigan guy at Cold Yeah, coach backage is like the

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Speaker 1: data supports and the science supports, six to twelve is

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Speaker 1: an age window where kids should be just playing, you know,

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Speaker 1: kicking hard and swinging hard, jumping up. He calls it

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Speaker 1: letting your body organize itself. And to me, I hear that,

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Speaker 1: I go, well, that's all pre puberty? Is that kind

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Speaker 1: of what you're doing. Is there like a natural development

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Speaker 1: phase that you don't want to interfere with before kids

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Speaker 1: hit puberty exactly? You know? And um with Michael, he

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Speaker 1: played all different sports, right, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, And with

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Speaker 1: our younger kids on our swim team who are just

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Speaker 1: coming to swim team, all the eight Hunders would go

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Speaker 1: outside and run and skip and hop and learn to

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Speaker 1: do movements, and a lot of them I was shocked

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Speaker 1: don't know how to do the basic kind of kid movements.

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Speaker 1: So we would teach about to do it. And I

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Speaker 1: definitely believe that in the early development stages they need

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Speaker 1: a wide menu of exercises and movements so that they

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Speaker 1: can then choose from things later on. And if you

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Speaker 1: don't learn how to kind of do a lot of

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Speaker 1: different things as a kid, you're really locked into some

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Speaker 1: specific movement patterns and at some point are just gonna

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Speaker 1: say as you get older and train more. So it's

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Speaker 1: very important. I think that the pre puberty kids are

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Speaker 1: having a variety of different options in terms of how

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Speaker 1: they move and the wrong hands when it comes to swimming,

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Speaker 1: the data that you use and you know, because now

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Speaker 1: that in baseball talk about exit velocity and all these

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Speaker 1: different things, Well you're standing there with a stopwatch, you know,

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Speaker 1: and the wrong hands. Can that be manipulated or used

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Speaker 1: it and hurt an athlete? Or how how do people

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Speaker 1: know how to use the science the right way? Well? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And the first premise in swimming is that swimming is

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Speaker 1: a technique based sport. So if you don't have proper technique,

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Speaker 1: you're you're gonna limit your potential. Okay, So the first

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Speaker 1: thing that kids need to be taught is how to

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Speaker 1: swim properly. And the way that you do that is

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Speaker 1: not under the stress of training, right, It's done in

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Speaker 1: a way where they can focus on the nerm muscular patterns.

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Speaker 1: They can kind of build up there can their fitness

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Speaker 1: level to actually be able to do the technique. And

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Speaker 1: because needs to know what the right technique is, So

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Speaker 1: there are you know a number of things that go

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Speaker 1: with But I've seen so many kids who just got

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Speaker 1: thrown into a pool and swam a million yards and

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Speaker 1: they got really fast as young kids that they did

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Speaker 1: it with poor technique. And when they get to the

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Speaker 1: final level, so they're trying to get to a national

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Speaker 1: team or to the Olympics, that's a real limiting factor

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Speaker 1: if they have poor technique, because everybody there has good technique.

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Speaker 1: You can't be without it. So that's one phase of it.

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Speaker 1: The other one is they're just getting inappropriate uh modalities

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Speaker 1: of training. In my mind, and what I've seen in

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Speaker 1: youth sports since I've been coaching now for thirty years,

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Speaker 1: is that age group coaches are looking at what college

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Speaker 1: coaches do and they're using the same modalities. Right. They're

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Speaker 1: asking them to do resistance training, to pull on buckets

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Speaker 1: and things that we have for swimming. Now you can

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Speaker 1: actually swim against resistance, right, and they're not ready to

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Speaker 1: do that when they're twelve, eleven, thirteen, fourteen fifty. Michael

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Speaker 1: didn't lift weights until he's did in an Olympics because

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Speaker 1: we wanted to save that part to add so his

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Speaker 1: career would keep moving. Um So I think all of

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Speaker 1: that goes back to what's an appropriate thing to do

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Speaker 1: with a kid at a certain age, And for me,

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Speaker 1: it would work like this. There would be a phase

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Speaker 1: where it's skill based, only technique based, and just some

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Speaker 1: general conditioning like we said, jumping, Jack's running, swimming a

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Speaker 1: little bit, doing all the strokes, kind of learning everything.

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Speaker 1: Then there's gonna be a phase where you would start

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Speaker 1: to develop the aerobic system because we know that actually

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Speaker 1: pre pupacent kids can develop their heart and lungp size.

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Speaker 1: You can actually increase heart and lungp size prior to

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Speaker 1: puberty if you do some training. But that's not like

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Speaker 1: training like Michael would do when he was twenty. It's

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Speaker 1: appropriate training for eleven twelve year old. So you give

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Speaker 1: them a capacity, an aerobic capacity, but then with the

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Speaker 1: skills you have that, so you have aerobic and skills,

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Speaker 1: and then you start moving on to more anaerobic training,

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Speaker 1: more kind of power based training, and by the time

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Speaker 1: they get to college, they're ready to lift weights, they're

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Speaker 1: ready to do resistance and power based training because they

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Speaker 1: have a back ground of all these other things. But

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Speaker 1: it has to flow and it has to go into progression,

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Speaker 1: and if you ignore that progression, you just end up

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Speaker 1: really stunting how far they can go at the end

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Speaker 1: of their career. So let's say you know, you recognize

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Speaker 1: or a parent I have no idea, a coach recognizes

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Speaker 1: like you did you know a Caleb dress Sole, Michael Phelps.

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Speaker 1: You know these kids that are just wow, you know

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Speaker 1: this kid is special. Do you intentionally and I mean

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Speaker 1: you see it, you've seen it before, you see this

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Speaker 1: could could be an outlier? Do you intentionally not press

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Speaker 1: the envelope so that you don't over exert them? Because

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Speaker 1: I think what people do is they see this potential.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but my guess is they automatically go

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Speaker 1: into we gotta step it up a little bit. Is

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Speaker 1: that like the quickest way to burn a young kid

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Speaker 1: as the quickest way to ruin that? Actually, Michael just

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Speaker 1: came out with this documentary called The Weight of Goal

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Speaker 1: and there's a tiny clip of me and they're giving

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Speaker 1: what I think is my first TV interview ever, and

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Speaker 1: my words are, we've limited his training so that we

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Speaker 1: can add things later on so he can get a

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Speaker 1: lot better down the road. Yeah, and we we deliberately

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Speaker 1: limited his training early on. He slammed once a day,

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Speaker 1: where a lot of people would have tried to make

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Speaker 1: him some twice. Um. We saved the weight training where

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Speaker 1: a lot of people would have thrown him right into that.

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Speaker 1: And we tried to have a deliberate plan for how

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Speaker 1: we would develop each one of his strokes and each

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Speaker 1: one of his training qualities over time so that when

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Speaker 1: we finally got to the top level, the Olympic level

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Speaker 1: for him, he had all the tools in his tool box.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't missing something so and he could also do

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Speaker 1: an injury free That's a big part of what happens

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Speaker 1: when you start getting advanced training modalities early. The kids

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Speaker 1: get hurt and there shouldn't be eleven and twelve fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old kids with chronic shoulder problems in swimming that

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Speaker 1: just should not exist. That means you're not doing it correctly.

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Speaker 1: So you know, all of these things factor into what

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Speaker 1: a smart development plan is. In my opinion, how did

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Speaker 1: you recognize, like we gotta be calculated? I think a

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Speaker 1: text mession was that this all stuff that you have learned,

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Speaker 1: because it seems I don't them. Did you coach a

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Speaker 1: Phelps type person before? Like, how did you know this?

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Speaker 1: I studied. I studied Phelps type people because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to coach them, and I worked with coaches who had

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Speaker 1: developed that kind of people, you know, I could. I

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Speaker 1: worked with the coach who had developed Tracy Calkins is

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Speaker 1: probably the best of email swimmer ever. You know, if

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Speaker 1: it wasn't for the nineteen eighty boycott, everybody would know her.

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Speaker 1: She came back in eighty four once and medals, but

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Speaker 1: she was, you know, set American records in every stroke.

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Speaker 1: I worked with other coaches who had developed young swimmers

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Speaker 1: to the very top level and watched how they did

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Speaker 1: that and talked to them about it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: so so I was learning about it. And it was

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Speaker 1: obvious with Michael right, he wasn't just a good age

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Speaker 1: group swimmer. He was like you just had a feeling

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Speaker 1: that he was special. So you wanted to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you were going to give him every tools so

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Speaker 1: that he could maximize that. So that's kind of where

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Speaker 1: I approached it. So the long term I want to

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Speaker 1: say long term development, but like having the long lenses

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Speaker 1: is not something that you advent, like that's been going

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Speaker 1: on forever, because now it's a yeah, I love good

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Speaker 1: coaches have been doing that forever, right, That's how you

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Speaker 1: know them. They got people to really high levels because

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Speaker 1: they smartly developed them or they intelligently developed them. They

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Speaker 1: didn't just try to get everything now because they have

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Speaker 1: this kid who happens to be pretty good. So that's

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Speaker 1: what it takes. And I feel like today everyone and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter the sport. It seems like they want

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Speaker 1: to make a name for themselves. So let's get this

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Speaker 1: kid as good as they can. And at times I'm

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Speaker 1: just trying to connect the dots. It seems like we

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Speaker 1: are speeding it up and at times we're doing the

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Speaker 1: kids a disservice. Is that what we're Absolutely anytime you're

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Speaker 1: speeding that up, you're doing them a disservice. Everybody has

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Speaker 1: a raid at which they progressed. How Michael I would

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Speaker 1: be perfectly honest, Michael's chronological age did not match up

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Speaker 1: with his developmental age. Right, No fifteen year olds make

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Speaker 1: the Olympics, boys, you know he did, so you know

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Speaker 1: so that there is that piece. So he was probably

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Speaker 1: accelerated in terms of what I would do with somebody

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Speaker 1: who's his same age. That's not his talent level. But

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Speaker 1: in general, you always want to be moving at the pace,

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Speaker 1: and they'll tell you what the next step should be.

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Speaker 1: If you're a good coach, you're observing how they adapt

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Speaker 1: to what you're giving them. Are they swimming with better technique?

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Speaker 1: Are they able to handle this workload and still come

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Speaker 1: into practice with a positive attitude and not be the

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Speaker 1: walking dead, you know, because you're killing them. Are they

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Speaker 1: happy doing what they're doing? Are they racing and progressing

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Speaker 1: over time? And if you're also your job to kind

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Speaker 1: of make some of these things happen. Like for Michael,

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Speaker 1: I knew on day one that his best event was

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Speaker 1: the two hundred butterfly. Okay, you knew it was gonna be.

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Speaker 1: I didn't let him swim that for almost a year.

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Speaker 1: When he started something, he we kept him from swimming.

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Speaker 1: So I got him at eleven. He didn't really swim

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Speaker 1: it into meat till he was thirteen that because you

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Speaker 1: want to be uncomfortable, Well, no, I wanted to get

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Speaker 1: his strokes right, and I didn't want him to start

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Speaker 1: swimming this event that all these older people swam and

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Speaker 1: just burn himself out on it. Right, So Michael swam

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Speaker 1: the two hunter fly, the first time he ever swim

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Speaker 1: in the meeting qualified for the junior Nationals, and then

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Speaker 1: the next time he got third at in your Nationals,

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Speaker 1: and the next time he broke in Nashal as your

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Speaker 1: bigger by five seconds. So it got a spiral from there.

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Speaker 1: Uh So it was you know, I think it tells

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Speaker 1: you planning of how new events they swift, how you

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Speaker 1: choose to compete. Just because everybody's competing in a certain

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Speaker 1: way doesn't mean you have to do that. What we

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Speaker 1: thought was important for his development at thirteen and fourteen

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Speaker 1: is he would go to meets and swim nine events

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Speaker 1: a day. He would swim a lot of events at

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Speaker 1: these beats, and he got used to swimming back to

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Speaker 1: back events. But it wasn't done in a way that

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Speaker 1: was you know, we weren't going home and swimming twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand yards a day. It was just the meets would

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Speaker 1: present the challenge that he loved to raise. So he

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Speaker 1: loved the challenge of seeing what he could do. Could

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Speaker 1: he win three events in a row in a program,

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Speaker 1: Could he come back at night and do the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Could he do the best time in all those events?

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Speaker 1: So you know, you kind of have to know your

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Speaker 1: athlete and know what they're capable of and then you

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00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,439
Speaker 1: are pushing them, right, You're pushing them to the next step.

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Speaker 1: You're not going from step ten to step a hundred.

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Speaker 1: You are from step ten to step eleven to twelve.

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Speaker 1: Maybe sometimes you skip and go to fourteen, but you

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Speaker 1: don't skip and go to twenty five. You know, tell

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Speaker 1: me this. You keep using the word compete, compete, compete.

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Speaker 1: You know, parents and kids are looking for the secret sauce.

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Speaker 1: From what I'm gathering, the willingness to go out and

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00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: compete like a killer. Uh you know what I mean

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Speaker 1: by that. But to compete to win seems to be

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Speaker 1: what every college coach wants. They want athletes that want

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Speaker 1: to compete. And from what I gather, Michael's in the

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Speaker 1: category of a Jordan Like Michael loved to win, but

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Speaker 1: he hated to lose more. How important that, Oh, it's

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00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 1: absolutely important to what drives everything we do, right, because

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00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: we tie everything we do and training back to the

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Speaker 1: next meet. So we're doing this because we want to

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00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: develop this quality of your strokes, and then when you

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Speaker 1: get to the next meet, you'll be able to do

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Speaker 1: this at this time of the race, and then everything

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Speaker 1: has meaning, right. See, I think a lot of people

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00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 1: they just kind of go to practice and the coach

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Speaker 1: just kind of gives them something and they do it,

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Speaker 1: and then it might go well, it might go poorly,

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00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 1: and then they go to a meet and they went

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00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: well and it's un poorly, But they don't tie the

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Speaker 1: whole thing together. You know. It's sort of like the

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Speaker 1: practices are your homework and the needs are your tests

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Speaker 1: your quizzes. Right, so you find out if you learned

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Speaker 1: the material about and then from the results of the needs,

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Speaker 1: you can go back and change what you're doing in

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Speaker 1: the classroom so the next time they do better. So

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Speaker 1: that's how I approach it. It's it's not just trial

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Speaker 1: and error. It's a plan system. And then you can

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00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: check your results, go back and tweet something, throw something

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00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 1: out at something in that you think they need, and

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Speaker 1: then over time, if you do that well enough, you

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00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: can refine it to a point where you can get

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Speaker 1: really predictable results. That classroom analogy I think everyone can

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Speaker 1: relate to. But Coach Baum and this has been awesome.

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Speaker 1: I know you're busy, I know you've got a lot

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Speaker 1: going on. I thank you so much and I always

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Speaker 1: appreciate you here. Thanks for listening to the Reformed Sports

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Speaker 1: Project podcast dom Nick Boncourt and Our goal is to

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Speaker 1: restore a healthy balance and perspective in all areas of

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00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: sport through education and advocacy. For updates, please follow us

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00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, or check out our website

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00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: by searching for the Reform Sports Project