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Speaker 1: Cool Media. Hello, and welcome to coopy Booted Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 1: your weekly reminder that there's a show that comes out

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Speaker 1: called kopy Booted Cool Stuff. I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 1: and my guest is the one, the only, the anti

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Speaker 1: weird little guy, Molly Conger him.

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Speaker 2: So glad to be back, Margaret, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah on this day, that's totally a separate day than

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Speaker 1: the last time we recorded.

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Speaker 2: Wish we were talking about something else, But I'm glad

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Speaker 2: I'm back.

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Speaker 1: Wait, you don't want to get into part two where

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust happened.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm always trying to avoid that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't do a lot of I mean, I

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Speaker 1: do some shows about people fighting the Nazis, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't done a lot of like straight up Auschwitz episodes.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, a lot of people did some really

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Speaker 2: cool stuff when it came to fighting the literal Nazis.

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Speaker 2: But it is kind of a bummer.

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Speaker 1: I know it is kind of a bummer. But what

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Speaker 1: isn't a bump? Nope, actually this is we're not saying

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Speaker 1: the bummer. No, it's actually it just starts right with

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Speaker 1: a bombing of a city.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, Jesus christ Magpie.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I know, I know, I'm fully aware. I have

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Speaker 1: been like I've been talking to people and like, how's

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Speaker 1: your week, And I'm like, let me talk about this man,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, how are you feeling? And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, because like when people ask me on

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Speaker 1: Wednesday how I'm doing, the answer is about thirty minutes

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Speaker 1: of me talking about something that happened at least one

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago. M hm, Like that's just the answer

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Speaker 1: to how I'm doing on Wednesday night. We record on Thursdays.

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Speaker 3: But I know a lot of your friends and they're down.

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Speaker 1: They want to know, they want to hear you.

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Speaker 2: Every day, my husband comes home from work and ask

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Speaker 2: me how my day was, and I'm like, I have

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Speaker 2: to tell you about this FBI file I've been reading. Yeah, really,

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Speaker 2: I have a new conspiracy theory about the assassination of

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Speaker 2: Martin Luther King Junior.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to listen to whatever episode this is about.

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Speaker 2: No, this is just private.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, it's like, how I'm doing is my work

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Speaker 1: by a certain point in the week, you know, And

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Speaker 1: that's fine. So where we last left off, we had

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Speaker 1: a complicated anti hero named Saint Maximilian Koby. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the most revered people in the twentieth century

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Speaker 1: from a strict Catholic point of view.

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Speaker 2: Again, I would argue because of a very particular political

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Speaker 2: project in the nineteen eighties, not because of anything specific

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Speaker 2: he did that was better than any other saint. That's

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Speaker 2: my soapbox.

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Speaker 1: That seems completely possible. Although when I read about the

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Speaker 1: average saint, they're like kinda cool, and then they said

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Speaker 1: some stuff, and then someone says that they think that

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Speaker 1: they like made a spring appear.

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Speaker 2: You don't care about the new gamer saint.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about the new games.

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Speaker 2: You don't know about the new gamer Saint. Markret. Saint

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Speaker 2: Carlo acutis the millennial saint. Who's a gamer.

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Speaker 1: There's a millennial saint. Yeah, he's new, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: good for him. I'm proud of him. I hope he

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Speaker 1: did something good.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm just happy we have a gamer saint.

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Speaker 3: Now, you know, that's cool.

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Speaker 2: Kennonie alongside Pierre Georgio Fersati, which was a legitimate anti

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Speaker 2: fascist saint. So it's even the al We're getting there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, this guy's right down the middle on September one,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, the Nazis started their invasion of Poland

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Speaker 1: by bombing a small city called Yalun, killing thirteen hundred

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Speaker 1: civilians according to one book, but Wikipedia says like one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty. So I think there was an order

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Speaker 1: of magnitude that was misrepresented in the book that I read.

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Speaker 1: The town had no military targets. It was still horrible crime. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm just mad at my sources. This is going to

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Speaker 1: come up again and again and again. The town had

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Speaker 1: no military targets. With the Nazis coming, Kolby had the

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Speaker 1: friars burn copies of their daily paper. Basically, it's like,

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Speaker 1: maybe when the Nazis take over to the town and

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Speaker 1: you have your newspaper called we must defend ourselves from

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Speaker 1: the Nazis. We hate the Nazis. Here's a picture of

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Speaker 1: Hitler and it's making fun of him. Sometimes you burn

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Speaker 1: those before they show up at your door.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you just trt to reduce the number of problems

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Speaker 2: you're going to have next week.

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Speaker 1: Right, because it genuinely had caricatures making fun of Hitler

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Speaker 1: in it, that, yeah, it becomes a problem later.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to get silly with it.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know. He then evacuated the city of Mary.

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Speaker 1: He sent almost everyone out. Basically, he was like, you

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Speaker 1: don't go go home, but you can't stay here, except

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Speaker 1: that you actually can stay here, but you probably don't

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Speaker 1: want to because we're probably all going to die if

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Speaker 1: we stay here, because they really don't like us. And

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Speaker 1: he sent almost everyone out. Most people went out to

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Speaker 1: go serve in medical capacities in various hospitals and things

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Speaker 1: like that, or go home. Only thirty six brothers stayed.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, figuring they'd stick it out until the end.

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Speaker 2: They all die, don't they.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't know if these thirty six weat percentage

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Speaker 1: of them die. More are going to come back later.

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Speaker 1: Fifty friars who live at this place are going to

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Speaker 1: die at this place over the course of the war,

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Speaker 1: and they just keep doing good stuff the entire time

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Speaker 1: they're there. A lot of the people who left, I

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Speaker 1: think hundreds of people left. A lot of them left

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Speaker 1: Poland completely, and those are the ones who survived the

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Speaker 1: war more consistently. Colby wrote his period and he's like,

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Speaker 1: okay in Warsaw and he was like, hey, I sent

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Speaker 1: everyone home, what do you want me to do, and

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Speaker 1: he could have gone to Italy. He had a passport

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Speaker 1: connections there. They were like stay at your post. He

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, stay at my post. As the Nazis

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Speaker 1: bombed nearby, the brothers would run around and help people,

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Speaker 1: and then they set up a hospital started bringing people

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Speaker 1: who are being injured in One brother, Juventin wrote in

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Speaker 1: his journal in the city of mary As for all

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Speaker 1: people in Poland, these were the days of suffering and terror.

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Speaker 1: The shock experienced by the defeat on the battlefront and

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Speaker 1: the prospect of the loss of freedom, the bombardment and

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Speaker 1: the uncertainty of what the invaders would all this was

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Speaker 1: a terrible psychological trial for everyone. Every day during our

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Speaker 1: morning meditation, Father Maximilian reminded us that this might be

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Speaker 1: our last day of our life, and try to prepare

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Speaker 1: us for a happy death.

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Speaker 2: Really kind of starting the day off shitty, brother, like

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Speaker 2: at breakfast.

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Speaker 1: I have different attitudes of I'm like, man, the Nazis

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Speaker 1: at the door. You start off breakfast being like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we might die.

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Speaker 2: Today's the day, guys.

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Speaker 1: Today might be the day. I like, I'm very attached

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Speaker 1: to being alive, but I find the thing that gets

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Speaker 1: me through a lot of things is being like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: death is inevitable. That's a big part of whatever my goth.

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Speaker 2: I'm mean, it just really helps sort of adjust the steaks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. On September nineteenth, a German officer knocked on

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Speaker 1: the door and announced that the monastery was to be closed.

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Speaker 1: Max was like, but can we leave the hospital open?

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Speaker 1: And the officer said two of the brothers could stay

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Speaker 1: and run it, and everyone else, including Max, was to

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Speaker 1: be sent to internment camps. So the Friars were marched

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Speaker 1: out and the Germans ate the Friars pancakes and berries

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Speaker 1: that they'd made, like they literally like made breakfast of

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Speaker 1: the morning.

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Speaker 2: They were just having their morning pep talk about how

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Speaker 2: today's the day we die and they hadn't even started

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Speaker 2: their fucking pancakes yet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the Nazis come in and eat their pancakes.

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Speaker 2: That's undignified, just I mean, as bad enough that the

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Speaker 2: Nazis came and shut down your monastery, but then the

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Speaker 2: ature fucking breakfast.

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Speaker 1: I know, that's those like insult to injury kind of moments.

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Speaker 2: The indignity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Later that day, while he was doing forced labor

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Speaker 1: for the Nazis, a soldier snatched away Max's kane. Later

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Speaker 1: that night, another Nazi returned it to him some good No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even yep, and it kind of thumbs down

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Speaker 1: for that one. Nope. As Nazis drove them through Poland

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Speaker 1: to Germany, sympathizers lined the road and threw them food

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Speaker 1: and told them to jump to freedom, that they would

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Speaker 1: help them escape, being like, hey, we'll help you change clothes.

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Speaker 1: Like none of the brothers jumped to freedom, and I

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Speaker 1: think they probably thought they couldn't. They were loaded into

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Speaker 1: cattle cars on a train and taken to Germany. Just

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Speaker 1: a spoiler, this isn't actually when he dies. He hasn't

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Speaker 1: even started the refugee camp yet. Just to anyway, whatever,

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Speaker 1: just a long road of suffering. Yeah. All the while

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Speaker 1: he's giving speeches to his brothers about how it's all fine,

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Speaker 1: how they might even convert their captors to Catholicism.

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Speaker 2: I mean hope Spring's eternal.

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Speaker 1: Max in Germany, captured Jews in Ukrainians were added to

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Speaker 1: their cars. And this is the first time I've read

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Speaker 1: anything like this.

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Speaker 2: He was already in Poland. Why are they taking the

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Speaker 2: train to auschwitzz in Poland?

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Speaker 1: He's not going to Auschwitz.

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Speaker 2: Oh but let' whe he dies.

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Speaker 1: I told you, this isn't where he dies.

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Speaker 2: He's just on a journey.

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Speaker 1: He's going to end up back at the city of

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Speaker 1: Mary after this part. Oh shit, Okay, yeah, this man

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Speaker 1: has a journey.

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Speaker 3: He was booked and busy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not German efficiency.

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Speaker 1: No, but this is the first time I've read about

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Speaker 1: this particular thing. Okay, So first he's going through Poland

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Speaker 1: and poles are throwing food to the cars. Then German

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Speaker 1: workers lined the trains desperately trying to give everyone water

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Speaker 1: who was on the train, and the Nazis wouldn't allow it.

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Speaker 1: This stands out to me because this is the first

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Speaker 1: time I've read about German workers trying to do basic

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Speaker 1: solidarity work in this context. It might happen more right.

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Speaker 2: You most often hear about them pretending they didn't know

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Speaker 2: this was happening.

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Speaker 1: Right, totally. At one point, a soldier a Nazi was

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Speaker 1: going to give them water, but another soldier knocked it

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Speaker 1: out of his hand and said, they are all destined

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Speaker 1: for extermination. I'm skeptical of this because.

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Speaker 3: That timeline's kind of wonky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the language that they were using because

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Speaker 2: this is like nineteen forty, right.

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Speaker 1: This is nineteen forty. And so the implication here is

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Speaker 1: that actually, like individual Nazi soldiers are like, now we're

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Speaker 1: gonna kill all of you.

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Speaker 2: But also, where does this account come from? So this

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Speaker 2: particular anecdote is being related by whom? This one Who

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Speaker 2: among the people who witnessed this survived.

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Speaker 1: No, I know, actually almost everyone who witnesses survived. All

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Speaker 1: of the friars are going to survive this part of

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Speaker 1: the story, okay, and get a chance to write their things.

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Speaker 2: Who wrote this down? Someone with motivated reasoning?

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Speaker 1: Right, you have the hagiography, right, But also like even

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Speaker 1: that I keep calling hagiography to talk shit, but like

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Speaker 1: it it actually like does cite a lot of like

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Speaker 1: individual soldiers who are interviewed later, including Nazis, will say things.

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Speaker 2: Especially in the twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: The cause for canonization is recorded kind of like a

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Speaker 2: court proceeding, right, Like there are witnesses, people provide their testimony,

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Speaker 2: their depositions, their attestations, like it is sort of recorded

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Speaker 2: and attested to and signed. And but again there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of motivated reasoning here totally.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think that there's a ton of motivated reasonings.

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Speaker 1: For specifically, a Nazi tried to give them water and

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Speaker 1: another Nazi knocked out of their hands, and so they're

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Speaker 1: all destined for extermination. But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the human memory is very complicated.

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Speaker 1: Also true. At the internment camp, Nazi soldiers would come

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Speaker 1: by and show them pictures of bombed out Polish cities

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Speaker 1: to laugh at them and be like, yeah, we fucked

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Speaker 1: you up, that's nasty. While they were there, they learned

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Speaker 1: that the USSR, Germany's ally at that time, had also

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Speaker 1: invaded and taken the other half of Poland. At some point, Colby,

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Speaker 1: is of German heritage, was offered a chance to sign

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Speaker 1: the Deutsch volkslista, basically granting him German citizenship, and he

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Speaker 1: would have been let go and he refused, right.

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Speaker 2: Because he had an Austrian passport or what.

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Speaker 1: So he he's of German heritage. His father is a German, right,

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Speaker 1: His father was German, and so he's of like good

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Speaker 1: blood to them, and he has a German last name,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, ah, Colby, huh wan, you wanna be German?

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Speaker 1: And he's like, nah, I'm good.

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Speaker 3: Look.

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Speaker 2: At this point, no, dude.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Eventually, December eighth, after eleven weeks of captivity, the

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Speaker 1: Friars were released entirely because the Nazi in charge of

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Speaker 1: the camp was a devout Lutheran who had become friends

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Speaker 1: with the Friars. Yeah, Molly's making a goddamn it face.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm just I mean, as things progress, the way

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Speaker 2: the Catholic clergy are treated in the camps.

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Speaker 1: Is not good. No, it's gonna get really bad.

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Speaker 2: So that's an interesting anecdote.

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Speaker 1: No. Yeah, there's stuff along the way where like they

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Speaker 1: take over the internment camp's kitchen for a while and

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Speaker 1: are like running it and feeding everyone.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess they know how to run a kitchen.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they live communally, that is a thing you

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Speaker 1: could say about them, you know. On their way back

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Speaker 1: to the city of Mary, the other Friars are like, hey, Max,

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Speaker 1: you should probably go into hiding. They're probably going to

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Speaker 1: kill you. And he's like, no, I got to stay

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Speaker 1: at my station.

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Speaker 2: He chose both crowns.

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Speaker 1: He absolutely chose both crowns. They get home to see

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Speaker 1: that the place has been looted down to the silverware

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Speaker 1: and the woodworking tools, and they're like, oh, those fucking

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Speaker 1: Nazis took the woodworking tools. What the fuck. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: they cussed this much. But then as soon as the

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Speaker 1: priests were back, all the locals came out and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we thought you all were gone for good. You all

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Speaker 1: want your silverware and would working tools back.

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Speaker 2: That's nice though, Like I know, they were just making

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Speaker 2: sure it was getting put.

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Speaker 1: To good use, perfectly reasonable. And then they started doing

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Speaker 1: the work that they're famous for. They started taking in refugees,

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Speaker 1: thousands of them. By most reports I've read, most of

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Speaker 1: the refugees were Jews. I've read they's somewhere between thirty

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Speaker 1: five hundred and four thousand refugees over the course of

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Speaker 1: this period, and of them, fifteen hundred to two thousand

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Speaker 1: of them are Jews. From these refugees, the Friars learned

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Speaker 1: that Catholic priests were all being arrested, and that Protestant

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Speaker 1: ministers or whatever they're called, I think ministers were all

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Speaker 1: being conscripted to die for the Nazis. So basically they're like, oh, clergy,

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Speaker 1: Catholic off to jail, ministers, Protestants off to the army.

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Speaker 2: It's a death sentence either way.

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Speaker 1: It is and of these refugees, Max wrote, quote, there

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Speaker 1: is no distinction made because of religious or ethnic identity.

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Speaker 1: They are all And this is the big Whatever anti

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Speaker 1: Semitism he may have espoused in the past, it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter in the face of actual Nazism. Moment for

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Speaker 1: Colbay and the Friars, realizing that the Jews probably didn't

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Speaker 1: too much care for their big Christmas celebration that they did,

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Speaker 1: they immediately afterwards had a big New Year's party so

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Speaker 1: that everyone gets a party. It's nice, right, So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just like, oh, you're here, you better be Christian,

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Speaker 1: because that's our whole thing, is to try and make

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Speaker 1: you Christian. This is where some of the like I

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Speaker 1: think the way he's thinking about things is changing.

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Speaker 2: Or at least it's like it has moved down the

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Speaker 2: list of priorities.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Maybe in his heart it would still be very cool

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Speaker 2: for him if everyone converted, of course, but we're in

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Speaker 2: an emergency situation. We can deal with that later. We

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Speaker 2: can deal with the immortal soul after we get through

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Speaker 2: the imminent existential crisis.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I wish I knew Catholic theology better enough

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Speaker 1: to know when they switched to you have to be

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Speaker 1: Catholic in order to get into Heaven versus like just

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Speaker 1: on your works. But I don't know, and someone does,

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Speaker 1: and that's just not where my chops are. Local polls

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Speaker 1: were like, hey, should we be giving food out to Jews?

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Speaker 1: And Kolby's like, yes, what are you doing? Yes? And

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Speaker 1: So's he's getting there. He's consciously trying to get their

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Speaker 1: surrounding area to be nicer to the Jews. But as

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Speaker 1: a mutual aid nerd me, I'm a mutual aid nerd.

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Speaker 1: What really struck me about the refugee center is that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't divided into administration and refugee. It wasn't like

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Speaker 1: we are the ones who run this, you all do

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Speaker 1: whatever we say. It was probably hierarchical, but the refugees

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Speaker 1: took an active role in the administration and care of

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Speaker 1: the refugees. Short term folks, priests and refugees alike went

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Speaker 1: into town to beg in order to get the supplies

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Speaker 1: they needed. But they started setting up gardens and livestock farming,

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Speaker 1: and they had like a both an infirmary and a hospital,

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Speaker 1: which are different somehow. I think the infirmaries people who

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Speaker 1: are like chronically incapable of doing certain things, and the

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Speaker 1: hospitals for people who are wounded. And Max had this

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Speaker 1: vision where the whole thing was going to be so productive. No,

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Speaker 1: not that, No, there, it's actually done. When he had

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Speaker 1: his two visions, although he's going to cause another one,

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Speaker 1: he wanted the whole thing to be so productive that

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Speaker 1: the Nazis would be like, oh, that's fine, you're contributing

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Speaker 1: to the economy. You can stay. Everyone's fine. This didn't work.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was a good idea, No, totally. They

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Speaker 1: ran a hospital in a machine shop and a carpentry

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Speaker 1: shop and all these things. They made food for all

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Speaker 1: the refugees. They had generators there and so they ran

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Speaker 1: electrical lines from their own spot out to help other folks,

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Speaker 1: like the nearby train station. And when you read a

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Speaker 1: pop history, it's going to say he hid the Jews,

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Speaker 1: and that's not true. He provided refuge for the Jews.

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Speaker 1: The Nazis knew they were there. I believe they certainly

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Speaker 1: know there was a refugee center there. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if he was like, hey, and by the way that

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Speaker 1: one's Jewish, that one's like, I don't think he was

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Speaker 1: doing that.

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Speaker 3: I think It's interesting because this concept gets brought up

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Speaker 3: a lot. I think in modern times that he was like, well,

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Speaker 3: if I contribute to society, like I should get to

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Speaker 3: stay right, Like everything's fine, right, And it's like, no,

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Speaker 3: we've learned nothing. Do we not see? Like at the

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Speaker 3: time of recording, there's going to be two halftime shows

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Speaker 3: for the Super Bowl. You're telling me bad buddy, isn't

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Speaker 3: contributed to the economy? Like please?

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Speaker 2: I mean it's like you see liberals say all the time,

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Speaker 2: like how can they want to go after undocumented immigrants?

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Speaker 2: You know they pay taxes? Like, yeah, they do, but

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Speaker 2: the kind of people who want to exterminate them don't

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Speaker 2: care about their contributions to the economy.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's not actually capitalist? Is that it's a capitalist

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Speaker 1: society that is part of the problem. But it's not capitalism.

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Speaker 1: You can't capitalism your way out of it. It's racism.

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Speaker 3: It's racism, it's anti semitism.

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Speaker 2: There's no amount of contribution to the economy that will

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Speaker 2: conquer that.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: We should contribute to the economy and go to an

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Speaker 3: ad break.

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Speaker 1: That's an important part of the economy. I think regularly

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Speaker 1: about how strange it is that the way I contribute

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Speaker 1: to the economy is this podcast and you can help

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Speaker 1: that happen by listening to or skipping these podcasts. Ads,

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Speaker 1: And we're back. So the Nazis are aware there's a

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Speaker 1: refugee center here and they don't like it, but they're

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Speaker 1: not fully ramped up into their machine yet, so they're

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Speaker 1: not immediately capable of destroying or shutting it down, and

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Speaker 1: so they're just aggressively fucking with it. On Hitler's birthday

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Speaker 1: four twenty, the Nazis hung a huge Nazi banner over

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Speaker 1: the entrance to the city of Mary with the words

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Speaker 1: one Empire, one nation, one leader. No one was happy

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Speaker 1: about this.

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Speaker 3: Molly and I are both making the same face.

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Speaker 1: Which is just like you, no, I know, there's actually

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Speaker 1: photo of this center with the Nazi banner hanging in

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Speaker 1: front of it and all these like precent in front

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Speaker 1: being like ugh.

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Speaker 2: I was just having like just the dumbest realization that

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Speaker 2: of course they were really into Hitler's birthday while Hitler

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Speaker 2: was still alive, because like the kind of guy I

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Speaker 2: read about every week, like I tell myselfand all the time,

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Speaker 2: like I probably say the phrase Hitler's birthday more often

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Speaker 2: than anyone on Earth. I feel like I'm constantly talking

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Speaker 2: about Hitler's birthday because all my little guys have a

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Speaker 2: party every year on Hitler's birthday. And it just never

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Speaker 2: occurred to me that they did that while Hitler was

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Speaker 2: still alive too. Of course they did. Of course they did.

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Speaker 2: Of course they were doing it.

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Speaker 1: Never change right wing fanatics.

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Speaker 2: They love Hitler's birthday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Max, at one point he's like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: really miss running my newspaper. But he goes to the

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Speaker 1: regional authorities aka the Nazi occupation government, and he's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: can I keep printing my newspaper.

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Speaker 2: You should have started a substack.

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Speaker 1: I know. They're like, no, of course, you can't start

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Speaker 1: your newspaper. Why would we let you do that. The

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Speaker 1: version of this story that I had heard was there's

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Speaker 1: this anti Semitic, right wing Catholic dude who changed his

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Speaker 1: tune once the Nazis occupied Poland and started hiding Jews

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Speaker 1: and printing illegal and anti Nazi propaganda, and they killed

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Speaker 1: him for it. And that's not true. He offered refuge

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Speaker 1: to Jews and he got permission eventually from well, we'll

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Speaker 1: get to it. He like didn't break the law. This

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Speaker 1: didn't save him. He's gonna die in Aschwitz.

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Speaker 2: Like, I guess that's part of the lesson, right, go

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Speaker 2: ahead and break the law. Yeah, exactly, you're gonna die

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Speaker 2: in the camp anyway, honestly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so he goes and he's like, hey, can

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Speaker 1: I put my newspaper and they're like no. And he's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just like a normal Catholic thing and they're like.

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Speaker 2: No, especially no. Yeah, that's part of no.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the whole time, the Nazis were planning to

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Speaker 1: liquidate the potential leadership of Poland, especially including religious leaders.

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Speaker 1: There's a letter written by Hitler's personal secretary saying as much.

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Speaker 1: It's like, if they don't preach what we want them

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Speaker 1: to preach, we're going to liquidate them. But Nazis didn't

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Speaker 1: have perfect centralization, despite all of the claims of perfect

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Speaker 1: Nazi efficiency, and so some regional administrators eventually gave Max

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Speaker 1: permission to print one issue of his paper only in Warsaw,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty thousand copies. And I think it

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Speaker 1: couldn't go through the mail. It had to be like

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Speaker 1: hand distributed, and so they made it and it was

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Speaker 1: clearly anti fascist. But instead of being like kill Hitler,

436
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 1: Rise up, kill Hitler, it was like love wins against hate,

437
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 1: and the Nazis they didn't like. They know that that

438
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: means anti fascism. They don't like when love wins against hate.

439
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: So his days were numbered and he knows it.

440
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: Seems like he did them on purpose. Yeah.

441
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 1: No, he's like he chose both crowns. Yeah, no, absolutely,

442
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm not getting out of this. Like he

443
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: didn't leave when he had the chance. So it's like

444
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: when I say, it's like, oh, he didn't print illegal

445
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: anti Nazi papers. No, he printed legal anti Nazi papers

446
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 1: that he knew would still get him in trouble. He

447
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: didn't think he was going to get away with it.

448
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: He's just fundamentally lawful in the way that's like hard

449
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: for me to identify with, you know, but that doesn't

450
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: make him less good in this particular contents.

451
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: And he still did it knowing it was going to

452
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: be his death warrant.

453
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, even though it doesn't say Cole Hitler, it says

454
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 1: like love wins against hate.

455
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: It just said be nice, and Hitler said absolutely fucking not.

456
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 1: Dog. Yeah, this is the most catholic thing I've ever read,

457
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 1: and not in a way that I feel positively about

458
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: Max's last Christmas in nineteen forty he let a Nazi

459
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: officer who is Catholic join them for mass.

460
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 2: You know, I understand that he felt like he needed

461
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 2: to do that, but that's not how I feel. Nope,

462
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: I see what you were going for.

463
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,239
Speaker 1: But I'm gonna go with no right. But again, it's like,

464
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: this is part of what makes him who he is,

465
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: and the good stuff he does come from the same

466
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: source as the stuff that he does that I'm like, oh, man,

467
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: I wouldn't fuck it.

468
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 2: Oh you know, he's just really locked into a very

469
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 2: particular track.

470
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

471
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely. On his forty seventh birthday January eighth, nineteen forty one,

472
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: he said, quote, children, I'll not survive the war, many

473
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: of you will survive, and it's left to you to

474
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: carry on the work we've begun together. And in February

475
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, the Gestapo drove up and demanded a

476
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 1: tour of the building. It's like, Okay, takes them around

477
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 1: the end of the tory goes he wants some tea.

478
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: The Nazi in charge said, this is a quote, priest,

479
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: you don't seem to understand. We're not here to drink

480
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: your tea, but to place you and four of your

481
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,479
Speaker 1: priests under arrest.

482
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: What was that the quota for the day. They needed

483
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 3: five priests in total to arrest.

484
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, I don't know whether it's like the four

485
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: who like names were on the letterhead of the paper.

486
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: Because there were surely others there, I know, And.

487
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: It's just it's a like, well, there's a saint, so

488
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: no one pays attention to anyone else, I mean, the

489
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: other they're probably dying too. He was arrested for his

490
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: anti fascist publication, the one he'd gotten permission from the

491
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: Fascist to print. My biggest frustration as a history enthusiast

492
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: is that every single version of this story I found,

493
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: and I looked through probably fifty different accounts of Saint

494
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: Max's life and at least ten different accounts of the

495
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: city of Mary, every single one stops paying much attention

496
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: to what happened at the city of Mary after he leaves.

497
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: But I'm very interested in what happened after he left

498
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: me too.

499
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: I know a little bit, but I don't know what

500
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: happened to the thirty five hundred refugees, including two thousand Jews.

501
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: Y did they come back the next day with the

502
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 2: whole train or what?

503
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: Probably not right because the machinery hadn't been oiled so

504
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 1: quickly yet. And I do know that some Jews, at

505
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: least including a specific large group of Jews, was using

506
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: it as a place to stop along the way. It

507
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: wasn't like, oh, we live here now. It was like,

508
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: we need our shits on fire, we need a place

509
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 1: to stop.

510
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: They were on their way somewhere.

511
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, because a bunch of Jews specifically came and stayed

512
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: there for a while and then thanked him profusely and

513
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: were like, again, hey, geographies us Jews all love you.

514
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: You've saved the Jews. Anyone In nineteen eighty two, Clayser,

515
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: anti Semitic, is lying.

516
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: I feel like if there were a bunch of accounts

517
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: of people who were there the day he was arrested,

518
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: who then were fine after that, those would be in hagiography.

519
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: That seems possible. I do know about it later, like

520
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: a person he's friends within the camp who yeah, no,

521
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I would guess, honestly, cynically, I would

522
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: guess that most of them don't survive. But that's not

523
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: because he didn't save them, because.

524
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 2: For his canonization is his martyrdom.

525
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not this part.

526
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: It has very little to do with what he was

527
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 2: doing that led to his martyrdom. Like the Church was

528
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: not so interested his work with these refugees, so they

529
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: just didn't find out.

530
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: I guess it wouldn't have been part of the canonization

531
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: court record. I would guess that most of the refugees,

532
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: both Polish and Jewish, die because most Poles did. Because

533
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: it's nineteen forty one and there's four more years of

534
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: this war and they don't have a home, and two

535
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: thousands of them are Jewish.

536
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 2: Or like even the ones that did survive the next

537
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: four years, they were a lot of places.

538
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: Right. It's also completely possible that a ton went to

539
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: go joint partisans, a ton disappeared cross borders. I don't know,

540
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: and lots of things feel possible, and I'm guessing it's

541
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: a mix of stuff. And I'm just frustrated that in

542
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: this case Jews are being counted as like holy points

543
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: instead of individual people.

544
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 2: Because what happened to those people? Where did they go?

545
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: Did they die?

546
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: Right? And I just don't know.

547
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: No one writing the story of this man's martyrdom was

548
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: interested in. He martyred him of those four thousand.

549
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: Refugees, right, whereas I actually think he probably would be.

550
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: He would have been I'm sure.

551
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: Like he probably would feel the death of every single

552
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: person under his care very deeply, you know. But the

553
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: people who then prop him up don't, it seems to me.

554
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: And maybe that's too cynical of a take. And maybe

555
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: if I you know, there's so many books about this man,

556
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: just most of them are y or whatever, and some

557
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: of them might have lived, some of them might not

558
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: have I don't know. I also know that fifty Friars

559
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: died during the war at the city of Mary because

560
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: the place gets bombed later in the war. Because they're

561
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: continuing to offer refuge to people throughout the war, including

562
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: opening their doors up to the people wounded during the

563
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: Warsaw Uprising. Not the Warsaw ghetto uprising that I know of,

564
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: because they didn't really get out very much, but the

565
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: later Polish uprising in Warsaw. So I don't know what

566
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: happens to them, but I do know what happens to Max.

567
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: I also know what will happen to you if you don't. No,

568
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: I can't. No, that tone doesn't work at all. Well,

569
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: there's ads here anyway, Sorry, and we're back. So the Nazis,

570
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: instead of drinking tea, take five friars, including Max, to prison.

571
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: And first they take him to a jail staffed by

572
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: Polish guards and one Nazi sees is rosary and held

573
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: it up. It's like, oh, do you believe in this?

574
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: And Max is like, yeah, of course I believe in that.

575
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

576
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. So they beat him with it and the whole

577
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: time they're like, you still believe in it? And Max

578
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: is like, why would this be the mechanism by which

579
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: I no longer believe in my religion. I don't think

580
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 1: he actually said that. I think he said yes. He

581
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: was in this prison for a few months. And the

582
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: Polish guards they're like, I mean, they're working for the Nazis,

583
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: and the word for might be Nazis, but they're different.

584
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: They're not in the Nazi army, right. The Polish guards

585
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: start helping him smuggle consecrated communion wafers into prison so

586
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: that he can perform masks for prisoners.

587
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: They wouldn't need to smuggle in so I think it

588
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 2: was already consecrated. He could consecrate it.

589
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: I I was thinking the same thing when I was

590
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: reading this. I don't know enough about what level of everything,

591
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: what priest level. I've only played clerics, I've never played priests.

592
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: For as a D and D joke.

593
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: I got it really late.

594
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: I got it after you explained it. I was like, oh,

595
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 3: that's very funny, and I've ruined the whole joke. And

596
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: now I've over explained it again, which ruins it multiple times.

597
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 3: I'm a really good at job.

598
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: We're also good.

599
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: Maybe transubstantiation doesn't work inside of a death camp.

600
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. It's well, that happens

601
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: once you eat it. It's actually not substantiated until you

602
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: took us in your body anyway, whatever, Okay, Theoretically, consecrated

603
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: communion wafers are smuggled into prison so they can perform

604
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: masks for the prisoners. When the guards are caught doing this,

605
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: forty five of them are found guilty of this and

606
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: sent to concentration camps, and ten of them are executed,

607
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: Like immediately.

608
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: That seems a little harsh, it does?

609
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 3: These might be the bad guys.

610
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. In May, he was taken to Auschwitz in a

611
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: cattle car. Auschwitz is a death camp. I think people

612
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: mostly know that but just don't want to assume knowledge.

613
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: His uniform had a red triangle marking him a political prisoner.

614
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: It was a symbol that he shared with the communists

615
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: and the anarchists, although some of the anarchists had a

616
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: black triangle for antisocial In the center was a P

617
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: for poll The number one six six seven zero was

618
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: branded into him. They were immediately informed that they would

619
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: be dying there. And this is interesting again, Auschwitz was

620
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: not yet a full on extermination camp. It was moving

621
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: into that very rapidly, but it would be another year

622
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: before the gas chambers were built. It's right, this is

623
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: the heaviest part of the whole thing. Apologize for all this,

624
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: but it is what it is. The deputy commandant of

625
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: the bunker said that the only exit was through the

626
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: chimney of the crematorium. He told them that Jews would

627
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: last two weeks, priests would last a month, and everyone

628
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: else would last three months. When I told this story

629
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: to my friends this week, a friend of mine was like,

630
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: how much was this guy just trying to die and

631
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: trying to get to be a martyr? And it's a

632
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: good question, because since he was nine he wanted that

633
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: red crown, right, but he keeps not dying. He has

634
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: chance after chance to die, and he continues to not

635
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: die very effectively for a long time in the death camp.

636
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: So I actually, as we kind of talked about in

637
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: part one, like he's not itching to get off the train.

638
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: You know, of life is a weird metaphor. I'm just

639
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: going to continue my script. At one point, a guard

640
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: kicks him so much that he's left for dead in

641
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: the field. Hours later, other prisoners find him alive. At

642
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: another point, he sort of adopts a fourteen year old

643
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: Jewish kid who had lost fifty eight members of his

644
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: family and was there. I believe as an orphan he's

645
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: like drying the kids hears and shit. And this kid

646
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: lives and lived out his life in Delaware. He might

647
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: still be alive. I don't know. Everything I read about

648
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: him was from the early nineteen eighties. On June fifteenth,

649
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, Max wrote his final letter to his mother, quote,

650
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: my dearest Mamusha. At the end of May, I was

651
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: transported to the Auschwitz camp. I'm well, dearest Mamusha. I

652
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: apologize if I'm pronouncing that wrong. It might be Mama Yusia,

653
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: but I think it's Mamusha because our dear God is

654
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: everywhere and thinks of everyone with great love. Don't be

655
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: concerned about me or my health, since I don't know

656
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: how long I'll be here. For the time being, it

657
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: would be best not to write Cooba Raymond because he

658
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: still used his birth name with his mom.

659
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: We switch it in Polish.

660
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then on January twenty ninth, nineteen forty one,

661
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: an inmate named Zigmunt Pulaski escaped. His fate is unknown,

662
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: though some say he was rearrested or later found dead.

663
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: Two other inmates from another block escaped at the same time,

664
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: and the Nazis used collective punishment. When one person escaped,

665
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: ten people from their block were sent to a starvation

666
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: bunker to die. This was before it was a just

667
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: kill everyone camp. It was just a you're gonna die

668
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: here soon anyway. Camp. So one guy escapes and ten

669
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,479
Speaker 1: people are to be starved to death in a bunker.

670
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: They line up six hundred inmates and they have them

671
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: just stand there while the search for this guy happens.

672
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: They never find the escapee, so ten people are picked

673
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: for death. The Nazis delight in the torture of like

674
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: they're like going through the line being like maybe you

675
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: and like watching people react before moving on to the

676
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: next person. When they get to the tenth inmate, a

677
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: Polish sergeant named Franciscak Gasuni Sek. He cried out and

678
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: he said, quote my poor wife, my poor children, who

679
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: will take care of them? So the Nazis beat the guy.

680
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: And the risk of cutting into the narrative tension because

681
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: I don't like when side characters are just props for

682
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: this man. I want to tell you about Franciscik because

683
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: he did more than the average person to stop fascism,

684
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: and he's usually just presented as this faceless man native

685
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: charity and saving. He was a non commissioned officer. I

686
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: think he fought in World War One for the liberation

687
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: of Poland, and in World War II he helped defend Yalun,

688
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: that first city the Germans had attacked. Although this is

689
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: confusing because I read a book that says he was

690
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: part of that defense of that city, and I read

691
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: other people that there was no defense of that city.

692
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 1: But he won the Cross of Valor in the defense

693
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: of Poland, I believe at Yalun. And then he fought

694
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: in a second battle as a scout. His entire unit

695
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: was destroyed, he was captured. He didn't like that much,

696
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: so he escaped and then he joined the underground resistance,

697
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: and then he was caught again and he was tortured

698
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: for seven months before the Nazis sent him to Ashwa

699
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: and he was one of the first seven hundred Poles

700
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: sent to Auschwitz, and he wound up the only one

701
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: of those seven hundred to survive. And so he is

702
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: an anti fascist hero. And he's not just a man

703
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: who we only see his moment of abject horror. And

704
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to call it weakness.

705
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: Right, He's not just the vehicle of Maximilian's martyrdom.

706
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: Right.

707
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: He was a man, He was a person, right, and lived.

708
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: Exactly and I think Maximilian Colbert would agree with that,

709
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: you know. And so he cries out in terror, my wife,

710
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: my kids, Who's going to take care of them? And

711
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: so max Colby steps forward out of the line, which

712
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: is like, you could just get shot for doing that,

713
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: but he's just so audacious. The commandants like in German

714
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: thinking he doesn't know it like, what does this Polish

715
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: pig want? And then in German, Colba says, I would

716
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: like to take place of one of the inmates selected.

717
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm a priest, I have no dependence. I'm

718
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: not fit as a worker for you anyway. Let me

719
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: die instead of this man. The Nazi agrees, just startled

720
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: by the audacity of it, and Francis Shek steps back

721
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: into the line. He survived the war, Francis Shek, and

722
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: he said, of that moment quote, I was stunned and

723
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: could hardly grasp what was going on the immensity of it.

724
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: I the condemned, am to live, and someone else willingly,

725
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: involuntarily offers his life for me, a stranger. Is this

726
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: some dream or reality? So the ten prisoners are marched

727
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: the starvation bunker. I never do this on the show,

728
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: where I just talk about a horrible shit, but I

729
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: think it's important. They're march to an eight by eight

730
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: cement basement with only a single bucket in it, and

731
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: they're strip naked and put into this room. And for

732
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: fourteen days he led the other condemned prisoners in prayer

733
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: and song. They have no food or water. Prisoners die

734
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: one by one, in Max's arms as he performs the

735
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: last rites for them. Two weeks later, four of them

736
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: are still alive, and Max was the only one who

737
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: was conscious. They're like, well, we need the space. You're

738
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: supposed to have died already, so they sent in a

739
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: doctor to inject them with carbolic acid, and Max holds

740
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 1: out his own arm for the needle. The guard who's

741
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: tasked with clearing the dead each day said of Max, quote,

742
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: I'll never forget the gaze in his eyes. On August fourteenth,

743
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, Max Colby died. His actions, according to

744
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: the survivors of the camp, gave people life, like even

745
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: stuff like I talk a lot on the show or

746
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: like in my life about the importance of hope and

747
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: how it's a discipline, right, and it's how a thing

748
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: you have to practice. Everyone dies in the fourteen days.

749
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: Five of them didn't, right, And what happened in that prison,

750
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: like prison is about breaking people and turning people to

751
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: creatures of fear and anger, and word of Colby's sacrifice

752
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: kept people alive in that camp, and it specifically kept

753
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: Franciszek alive. Later, he had one hundred and four fever

754
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: and was like dying of typhoid. He had a vision

755
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: where he saw Max on a white road and Max

756
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: was like, no, you're going to survive Aschwitz.

757
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: I mean at this point you have to.

758
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And with his one hundred and four fever, He's like,

759
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: I have to survive so that Max's sacrifice isn't in vain.

760
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: And there's a kind of interesting final thing about all

761
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: of this. In order to be a martyr for Catholicism,

762
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: you have to be killed for your Catholicism. This is

763
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: an important part of it to be a martyr of

764
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 1: the faith. And while our boy Max was imprisoned because

765
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: he was a Catholic priest, he wasn't killed specifically for

766
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: being Catholic, or so the church decided at first. So

767
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: they came up with a whole new category of martyr

768
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: for him that later gets applied to a bunch of people,

769
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: the martyr of charity, someone who dies in the process

770
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: of doing Catholic charity.

771
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: Right, he wasn't killed for his Catholicism, but he was

772
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: killed while doing what his Catholicism commanded of him.

773
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: And so what's interesting is they think about this for

774
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: years and they actually change their mind. They decide that

775
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: being killed trying to protect someone from the Nazis is

776
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: being killed for being Catholic. If you're Catholic and doing

777
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: it out of your Catholic faith, that feels right to me,

778
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: because to be Catholic is to be anti Nazi. Tell

779
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: that to the Francoists. But that's besides the point. Very slightly.

780
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: So he was upgraded to a martyr of the faith,

781
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: the regular martyr status.

782
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: Right, because you don't need to have done a miracle

783
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 2: to get canonized. If you die a martyr, you.

784
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: Don't have to do miracles while you're alive. His miracles,

785
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: I didn't write this into the script. His miracles is

786
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: that people pray to him and then put pictures of

787
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: him under their pillow and then get cured of tuberculosis.

788
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 1: He's done that for two people. You're making a skeptical face,

789
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: and I'm not disagreeing with.

790
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: It, Okay, I mean I'm happy for them.

791
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hope is a powerful drug.

792
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's all over the place. Yeah, patriots said of

793
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: you know all that?

794
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm going to get to the list.

795
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

796
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: And because Nazis hate entire segments of humanity, that's inherently

797
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: anti Christian according to this teaching. Tell that to the

798
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: current administration.

799
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 2: You know, I just think you'd be so chill if

800
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: jady Vans got excommunicated. But that's just something I think

801
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: about every day.

802
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 1: I agree, I think all the time about that meme

803
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: that's like every cradle. This isn't fair to any Catholic converts,

804
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: but there's this meme that's like every cradle Catholic, and

805
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: it's like, I think Jesus said, we're supposed to be

806
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: nice to people and feed people and stuff, and then

807
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 1: there's like every Catholic convert according to the Fourth Council

808
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: of Nicea.

809
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, now I know the post you're talking about.

810
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was one of my favorite. There was

811
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: this brief moment where all the jady vance Is of

812
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: the world of the Catholic convert right wing Nazi people

813
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 1: were like, I think I have to leave the church

814
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: because they keep preaching tolerance to my children.

815
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, what's all this woke bullshit? They keep talking

816
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: about a mass.

817
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like a Spanish Mass at my church. He

818
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: is the patron saint of a mixed bag. He's the

819
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: patron saint of journalists, prisoners, drug addicts, amateur radio operators,

820
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: the pro life movement. He has also been called the

821
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: patron saint of the twentieth century, and honestly, I get why.

822
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: It's just morally complicated, flawed, did his best.

823
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, But when I think about World War Two, I

824
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: think of three of the world's most evil empires teeming

825
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: up to beat the even more evil empire. That's the

826
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: history of World War Two.

827
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 2: There's no heroes here.

828
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: It's just the USSR, the UK, and the US are

829
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: some of the most evil, destructive, murderous empires that have

830
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: ever existed. And then the Nazis.

831
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: Sometimes the bad guy has to kill the worst guy exactly.

832
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 2: Sometimes the guy with the anti Semitic newsletter has to

833
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: fight the Nazis.

834
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was also called the Priest of the Dark Time,

835
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: and I like that because his metal as fuck. The

836
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 1: guy he saved, Franks Tishek, was liberated by the US

837
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: Army while on a death march to Berlin in nineteen

838
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: forty five. All right, francsish Ek and he gets out

839
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: and he's reunited with his wife. Both of his sons

840
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: were killed by the Soviet bombing of Poland in nineteen

841
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: forty five. He attended the canonization of the man who

842
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: saved him. That's wild. Yeah, he dedicated the rest of

843
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: his life to be like I'm telling everyone what a

844
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: good guy to say is.

845
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what you should Yeah too, totally Also

846
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 3: way to go ninety four.

847
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he dies in ninety four to nineteen ninety five.

848
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: I mean he had to live a long life, like

849
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: somebody paid for that, I know.

850
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: And it's like that man went through so much and

851
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: so did millions of people during that time, and many

852
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: of those millions of people quite famously didn't survive it.

853
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 2: Really, things were pretty bad for him before he even.

854
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: Got to Auschwitz. Yeah, exactly. And now here at the end,

855
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something that I promised at the

856
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: end of part one that I've never done before in

857
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: the show. I am going to quote a philosopher that

858
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about and I'm distrustful

859
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: if people have strong feelings about him in either direction.

860
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote Gzack. Well, and now I've said

861
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: that if now I've implied that if you have strong feelings,

862
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: I'll say I'll think negatively. But do you have strong

863
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: feelings about Gzeck? I do not.

864
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 2: I suppose I should.

865
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 1: I don't know.

866
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: I try not to think too much about philosophy. It's

867
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 2: not my business.

868
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: I try not to think too much about men.

869
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, both of these entirely legitimate. But of all the

870
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: analyzes I've read of old Saint Max, the one I've

871
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: read that was already written that I agreed with the

872
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: most is from Gijack's book, which this is a title

873
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: that I would never have read this book based on

874
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 1: the title. His book is called Less than Nothing Haig

875
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 1: and the Shadow of Dialectical Materialism. Yeah.

876
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: See, that's why I feel like philosophy is not my business.

877
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I agree with about eighty percent at least

878
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 1: of this analysis. Jijaqu asks, how can we reconcile these

879
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: two facts about Saint Max That he was conservative Catholic

880
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: and that he published propaganda for the church that was

881
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: clearly anti Semitic and anti Masonic, but also that he

882
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: gave up his life for another and quote. Most commentators

883
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: take one of the many easy ways out. Some simply

884
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: try to deny or minimize Colby's anti Semitism, even dismissing

885
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: the rumors about it as a KGB plot. Some insist

886
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: on the scholastic distinction between anti Semitism proper and anti Judaism,

887
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: a mere prejudice against Jews, not a murderous hatred of them,

888
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: claiming that Colby's error was of the second minor sort.

889
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: Others interpret this helping of the Jews and final sacrifice

890
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: his acts of repentance. Having witnessed the suffering of Jews

891
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: under the Nazi occupation, Colbay changed his views and tried

892
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: to ass swage his guilt. Still others taking the risky

893
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: step of minimizing not his anti Semitism but his final

894
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: self sacrificial gesture, pointing out the man he saved was

895
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: not a Jew, but a Catholic pull. All these versions

896
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: are desperate attempts to avoid the embarrassing fact that the

897
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: two attitudes and activities can easily coexist. A person who

898
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: is anti Semitic can also be capable of a dignified

899
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: act of ethical self sacrifice, And, even more embarrassingly, the

900
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: explicit motivation for Colby's noble self sacrifice may well have

901
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: been the very conservative Catholic ideology which had sustained his

902
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: anti semitism.

903
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:44,919
Speaker 2: End quote, I'm glad you didn't do the whole thing

904
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: in the Jijak voice because I wasn't gonna work it

905
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: was a longish quote.

906
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: I think that would have been I thought about the sniffle,

907
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: like a sniff but then I thought about that, and

908
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: then I looked it up and he actually doesn't do cocaine.

909
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: So I decided that actually just might be as I'm

910
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: not trying to be a list about the shit. You know,

911
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: man has a lisp, has a sinus thing, has an accident,

912
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: a lisp and a sinus thing. I was only going

913
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: to do the sniffle because I thought he just did

914
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: a lot of coke and I feel like I could

915
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: make fun of someone for that, but he doesn't do.

916
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: The accident would have been difficult to sustain.

917
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I.

918
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 2: Guess there's not an There's no answer to that, right, Like,

919
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: we don't know if he changed his mind, if he

920
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 2: was sorry, if at any point he sort of intellectually

921
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 2: reckoned with the nature of anti Semitism or the place

922
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: of Jews in Polish society. We don't know, right, And

923
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: I guess maybe what Jijak is saying is can't know

924
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: and maybe it doesn't matter.

925
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that like the same conservative Christianity Catholicism that

926
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: drove him to be shitty also drove him to be noble.

927
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: And we don't like that because it's messy, it feels bad.

928
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: And it's not to say that only conservative Catholics would

929
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: have done this, but it wasn't a break with his

930
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: beliefs to care for people, including the Jews.

931
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: Everything that he did, all of these seemingly contradictory acts

932
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: were in fact quite consistent with his stated beliefs. That

933
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: did not change, right, And I think that's important to

934
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: understand me now. And we are in a difficult political moment,

935
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: and you may find yourself working with people whose motivations

936
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: seem contradictory or confusing to you. But now is not

937
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: the time for I don't know, you don't know how

938
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: to interrogate the motivations of everyone.

939
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you need to work towards the common goal.

940
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, survival, because most people have inscrutable motivations.

941
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

942
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 2: But if you're taking in four thousand refugees at your monastery, good,

943
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 2: maybe we don't need to scrutinize.

944
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like and one of the things that's interesting

945
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: to me too, Coolbay wrote hundreds of articles and thousands

946
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: of letters and has hours and hours on the radio.

947
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: He was not shy about talking about what he believed.

948
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: In the end, no one remembers him for what he

949
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: believed or what he wrote about. They remember him for

950
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: hiding two thousand Jews, and they remember him for dying

951
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: for someone else in Auschwitz. And it's like the boldest no,

952
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: it matters what you do, right, that I've ever read

953
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: about in my life.

954
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: I mean, you see this with some like Civil rights

955
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: era martyrs, right that, like you don't have a lot

956
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: of information about the specifics the person's motivations. I was thinking,

957
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: we wrote recently about Byola Luzo. There's a lot of

958
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: sort of disagreement about the sort of depth of her

959
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 2: understanding of the movement. But right, she died for it.

960
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: Right, She's the one who was in Detroit who was like.

961
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: She was a Detroit housewife who drove down to Selma

962
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: and she was shot driving people back to Selma from

963
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: the march to Montgomery.

964
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, she understood enough.

965
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 2: She understood enough to and she was on the right side.

966
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: She understood enough to walk to Montgomery, Alabama and stand

967
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: there and listen to doctor King's speech, and she knew

968
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: that it was dangerous for her to be driving at

969
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: night with black people in her car. She did know that, Yeah,

970
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: But again there's disagreement about sort of the depth of

971
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: her understanding, her precise motivations and this, that and the other.

972
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, I guess you could

973
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 2: sort of try and pick apart what is left of

974
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 2: her legacy, or you could say she understood.

975
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: What she died for. Yeah, I think this man did too.

976
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: Was it that Frederick Douglas said about John Brown? You know,

977
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: I can speak for the slave, but he died for

978
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: the slave.

979
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: Yeah? Fuck, yeah, totally. Anyone who's like cast in Stone's

980
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: from now back to someone who believes what pretty much

981
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: every white Catholic in nineteen twenties Poland believed, you know,

982
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: like and again not defending what he did when he

983
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: was younger.

984
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 2: Right, his anti Semitism is a historical fact. You cannot erase.

985
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: That is a historical fact. But it also was not

986
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: an unusual will wait for him to have been in

987
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: the time that he exists. Right, That doesn't make it good,

988
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 2: That doesn't make it okay. Doesn't mean he couldn't possibly

989
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: have known better. He could, and some people did. But

990
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't an unusual set of beliefs.

991
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: Right, and it helped lay the groundwork for what a

992
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: lot of like four anti semitic taking over a fucking

993
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: Poland right, Like, he.

994
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: Was willing to die for it, are you?

995
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah? And if people don't forgive him, man, I don't care.

996
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: I don't need you to. Like, he's just interesting to me.

997
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: And I guess that's the thing is I'm kind of cool.

998
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say I do or don't forgive him,

999
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: because it wasn't me that he wrong totally. He's a

1000
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: complicated man and he was willing to die to save

1001
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 2: somebody else and I don't know how many people could

1002
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 2: do that.

1003
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he's also just kind of a guy like

1004
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: stubborn in a positive way, kind of a guy just

1005
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 1: just doing a thing.

1006
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1007
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: Imagine if he hadn't wanted those pet chickens when he

1008
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 2: was nine, things would have been different.

1009
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: It would have been so different. Absolutely. Also, just like

1010
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: how metal is, Like, I'm reading things that are like

1011
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: then he accepted the Red Crown and I'm like, hell yeah,

1012
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: that's pretty fucking hell yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's the patron

1013
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: saying of Republicans, right ice.

1014
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 2: We're all just doing our best. Saint Max.

1015
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, hopefully you can carry of TV, but I think

1016
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: modern medicine's better at that word.

1017
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 3: Mollie, do you have anything you want to plug? Like,

1018
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 3: maybe perhaps the podcast?

1019
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you can listen to my podcast Weird Little Guys.

1020
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm in the middle of writing about a

1021
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 2: much less complicated figure, a guy who just actually straight

1022
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: up sucks, the Nazi serial killer who paralyzed pornographer Larry Flint.

1023
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm so sad I got left on a cliffhanger

1024
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: on that one. Don't worry.

1025
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: It's going to be a while because I am. I'm

1026
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: slogging my way through it to in painstaking detail. You know,

1027
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: I love context, So it's going to be a minute.

1028
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: I remember podcasts visually by like I can look at

1029
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: the part of the wall that I painted while listening

1030
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: to you explain this thing about this guy. Like if

1031
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: I look up in the corner, I'm like, oh, that's

1032
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: where I learned about the serial killer.

1033
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,959
Speaker 2: Oh, those are good landmarks to keep in your home.

1034
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: No, that is what it is. Anyway, take care of

1035
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 1: each other, take care of dogs, and raise chickens. Guests.

1036
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: I don't know do whatever you want.

1037
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 4: Bye everyone, Bye cool People Who did Cool Stuff is

1038
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 4: a production of cool Zone Media.

1039
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 3: For more podcasts and cool zone Media, visit our website

1040
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 3: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1041
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 3: app a Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.