1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 2: Guess what, Mango? What's that? 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Will? 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: All right? 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 3: I know you love shopping malls, so I'm sure you've 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 3: noticed these people, but you know the people who like 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 3: to exercise by walking back and forth through the mall. 8 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: Sure, mallwalkers. It's like half the country's. 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 3: Grandparents at least, and as you mentioned, it's especially popular 10 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 3: with senior citizens. But they're actually not the only ones 11 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: doing this. There was this twenty fifteen report from the 12 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 3: CDC that shows that shopping malls are now the second 13 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 3: most popular place to go for a walk, just behind neighborhoods. 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 2: How weird is this? 15 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: It's weird, But why is the CDC doing reports on mallwalking? 16 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 3: Well, this isn't a small report either. It's actually fifty 17 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 3: six pages long and I'm reading every word of it 18 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: is just riveting. But to be fair, taking walks is 19 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 3: a way to prevent certain diseases, and the CDC is 20 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: actually the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. And I 21 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: bet you forgot that silent p at the end of 22 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 3: the CDC. There's one funny thing that I learned. It 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: actually turns out that most mallwalkers don't actually shop at 24 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 3: the mall. At most they might buy a coffee at 25 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 3: the food court or something like that. But according to 26 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 3: the CDC report, they really just want the camaraderie, you know, 27 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 3: to spend some time strolling and socializing. 28 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: And that actually puts. 29 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 3: Mallwalkers right in line with the original idea for shopping malls. 30 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: So the architect who designed the first mall in America's 31 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 3: name is Victor Gruen. He actually envisioned the mall as 32 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 3: a place to quote find opportunities for social life and 33 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 3: recreation and a protected pedestrian environment. 34 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: Ah, that's interesting. So by that measure, despite not buying anything, 35 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: mallwalkers are really the only ones doing malls right. 36 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 37 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 3: I don't know about from the mall manager's perspective, but 38 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: definitely from Gruin's. And he clearly had more in mind 39 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: for shopping malls than what they would ultimately become. But 40 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 3: what exactly did he envision, why didn't it work out? 41 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: And most importantly, is there still a chance that his 42 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 3: high hopes for shopping malls could still be fulfilled? Those 43 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 3: are just a few of the questions we'll try to 44 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: answer today. So let's dive in Hey their podcast listeners, 45 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as 46 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: always I'm joined by my good friend mangesh Hot Ticketer 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: And on the other side of that soundproof glass, just 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: tucking into a feast of food court stables. That's our 49 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: friend and producer Tristan McNeil. I gotta be honest, I'm 50 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: a little jealous of what I'm seeing over here. 51 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: I know, Missus Fields. There's a cinnamon bun from Cinnabon, 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: a pretzel from Auntie Ann's, and a huge orange Julius 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: to wash it all down. Man, it's like a good 54 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: trip to the mall in food form. But from what 55 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: it sounds like, that wasn't exactly Victor grusion of them all. 56 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. 57 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: But to understand what his vision did entail, we should 58 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 3: first talk about who Grewen was and where he came from. 59 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: So he was born in nineteen oh three in Vienna, Austria. 60 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: He grew up in a middle class Jewish family, fell 61 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: in love with the city's thriving art scene, and this 62 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 3: was at a pretty young age. So in the nineteen 63 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 3: twenties he spent many of his evenings performing satirical theater 64 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 3: at various cafes, and then during the day he studied architecture. 65 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 3: And this was at the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts, 66 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: so it was actually the same school that had rejected 67 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: Adolf Hitler just a few years earlier. Just a little 68 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: fun factor thrilling. 69 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: I feel like too good for Hitler should be on 70 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: all their t shirts. 71 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: Well. 72 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, though, the Academy wasn't the only point of overlap 73 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: between Victor Grewen's life and Adolf Hitler. So when Nazi 74 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: Germany annexed Austria back in nineteen thirty eight, Grewin knew 75 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 3: it was time to leave his country behind, and weirdly, 76 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: he left the same week as Sigmund Freud. I keep 77 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: throwing in these little side facts about. 78 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: All these people I like him. 79 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 3: Well, leaving was easier said than done, so grew And 80 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 3: turned to one of his theater buddies for help with 81 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: the escape. 82 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: And it's actually kind of remarkable. 83 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 3: His friend, dressed up as a Nazi stormtrooper, escorted Gruen 84 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: and his wife to the airport and then made sure 85 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 3: they were allowed to board a plane to Zurich. So 86 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 3: from there the couple made their way to England, where 87 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: they found passage on this ocean liner and traveled over 88 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 3: to New York City. So Grewin later looked back on 89 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 3: this journey and he said that he had arrived quote 90 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: with an architect's degree, eight dollars and no English. 91 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: Pretty tough. 92 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's an incredible story. So how do 93 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: you make it work? 94 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: Well? 95 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: He once again turned to the art scene. He joins 96 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 3: up with some other German immigrants and together they form 97 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: what they called the Refugee Artists Group, where Grewin did 98 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: set design. So the group caught the attention of some 99 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 3: big names in the music business. This included Al Jolson 100 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 3: Irving Berlin, and they ended up helping them with their 101 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: songs and all of that help actually paid off. So 102 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: the next summer the group was a to stage an 103 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 3: original Broadway show and this actually ran for eleven weeks straight, 104 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: which is just remarkable to think about this guy arriving 105 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: with eight dollars and how much longer later the guy's 106 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: putting on a Broadway show that's running for eleven weeks. 107 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: It's not bad, you know. So things were going well 108 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: for Grewin, but his architecture career had you know, suffered 109 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 3: since coming to America. Then one afternoon in midtown, Grewen 110 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: bumped into an old friend of his from Vienna, was 111 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: this guy named Ludwig Letterer. So Ludwig wanted to open 112 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: this leather goods store on Fifth Avenue, and he asked 113 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: grew In to help him design it, and so grew 114 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 3: In agreed, and what he ultimately came up with with 115 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: something of a game changer for American store design. So, 116 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: rather than build the entrance flush, you know, with the 117 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 3: street like all the other shops in the area, Grewen 118 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: actually made this recess like arcade style entryway with the 119 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: tall glass cases on either side to sort of draw 120 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: in the customers. So once they came inside, these guests 121 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 3: were just dazzled by these faux marble floors, a green 122 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: glass ceiling, a slew of bright spotlights that sort of 123 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 3: reflected these display cases, and you know, the result was 124 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: a store that felt decidedly modern and unlike anything else 125 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: on Fifth Avenue or really American retail in general. So 126 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 3: it's kind of hard to imagine now, but customers and 127 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 3: critics ate up this new design, and as a result 128 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 3: of this, Gruin was swamped with job offers. I mean 129 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: he was going to these upscale design stores all around 130 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 3: the city and beyond getting these offers. 131 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: So obviously designing these high end boutiques and then going 132 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,119 Speaker 1: to big, boxy shopping malls seems like quite a leap, 133 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: and not exactly an upward one. 134 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 3: Maybe so, But keep in mind that grew And was 135 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 3: commissioned to design the country's first indoor shopping mall in 136 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: nineteen fifty two and it opened in nineteen fifty six. 137 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: So prior to that, malls as we know them really 138 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 3: didn't exist, so there wasn't any stigma that we might 139 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: associate with them today. 140 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: So tell me about the revolutionary part about what Grewing 141 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: came up with. Like, what was the shopping scene like 142 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: in America pre mall? 143 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: Well, it was, you know, mainly mail order catalogs and 144 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: department stores for the most part. Outdoor shopping centers started 145 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: to catch on in the nineteen twenties, but they were 146 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: basically just strip malls as we think of them now, 147 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 3: like a bunch of different stores stuck together and just 148 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 3: happened to share a parking lot. So Grewin's big idea 149 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,239 Speaker 3: was to put all of these stores and walkways under 150 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: one roof, and then you'd have the addition of central 151 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: air and heating to make this complex sustainable year round. 152 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: And that last part was especially important given the location 153 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: of Gruin's first mall. This was the Southdale Shopping Center 154 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 3: and Edina, Minnesota, just outside of Minneapolis. 155 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: Where the winters are obviously frigid. 156 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 3: Exactly, I don't think people would want to be walking 157 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: around in those parking lots in the cold of winter, 158 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 3: and so the project grew and signed on for was 159 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: meant to address the residents demand for a temperate place 160 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: to be able to shop, and one where they wouldn't 161 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 3: have to brave the cold if they wanted to visit 162 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: a different store after they'd gone to the first one. 163 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So what about 164 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: this bigger idea he had of them all being kind 165 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: of the social hub. 166 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of that was just in how he 167 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 3: arranged the interior. So, just as an example, most shopping 168 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 3: centers of the era were on a single level. So 169 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: you know, you think about the number of stores in Southdale, 170 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 3: it was actually meant to house seventy two stores, plus 171 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: these two big anchored apartment stores so making your way 172 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: from one end to the other would have felt, you know, 173 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 3: like forever just to get there. So instead Grewin opted 174 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: for this two story design. They were linked by escalators, 175 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 3: of course, and now we're all envisioning, you know, kind 176 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 3: of the modern shopping center. So not only did this 177 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 3: breakup that monotony and make for a much easier trip 178 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 3: back to the car, but it also ensured that people 179 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: would circulate better, have more opportunities to socialize. But probably 180 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: the most prominent example of his people first design is 181 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 3: what he put. 182 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: In the middle of it. 183 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: It was kind of an indoor garden court, I guess 184 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: they called it, complete with a skylight, a goldfish pond, 185 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: towering live trees, balconies, hanging plants, like all of this 186 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: other stuff, including a bustling cafe. There was even a 187 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 3: twenty one foot tall cage filled with brightly colored exotic birds. 188 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 3: And so it was basically Gruin's ode to the European 189 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: piazzas that he had grown up with in Vienna, and 190 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: he wanted to bring some of that old world European 191 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: charm to the American shopping scene, which he kind of 192 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: saw is characterized by urban sprawl. And Tacki design. So 193 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: you fast forward a few years later, we're in nineteen 194 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: sixty at this point, and Gruen wrote a book in 195 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 3: which he outlined his hope and belief that the malls 196 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 3: could really be more like a town square and Greek 197 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 3: Agoras of the past, which. 198 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: Is not exactly what we think of malls today. 199 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 3: Right, definitely not so. When Southdale opened in October of 200 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: nineteen fifty six, it was met with this glowing praise 201 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 3: from shoppers as well as jerm from every publication from 202 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 3: Newsweek to the New York Times to Women's Wear Daily. 203 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 3: In fact, my favorite review though, comes from Time, which 204 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: harolded Gruin's mall as quote the pleasure dome with parking. 205 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: You know, ally, it's just it's such a great quote. 206 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 3: But with all that said, there was at least one 207 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: person who absolutely detested the Southdale Shopping Mall, and that 208 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: was none other than the legendary architect Frank Lloyd Wright. So, 209 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 3: a month after the mall opened, and you know, it 210 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: had gotten all this national press, right made the pilgrimage 211 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: to Minnesota to see it for himself and he was 212 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 3: not impressed at all. So after his visit, Right penned 213 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: this scathing article for the Star Tribune, writing quote, what 214 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: is this a railroad station or a bus station? You've 215 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 3: got a garden court that has all the evils of 216 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: the village street and none of its charm. 217 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: I love that. The way he really criticized it was 218 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: by calling it a railroad station. 219 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: He really really burned with that. 220 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: So I'm guessing even in the minorities, since you know, 221 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: every mall seems to have cred most of his design 222 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: from Gruin's, I mean, somebody must have liked these, right, 223 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. 224 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: I mean the design was such a success that it 225 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 3: became really the de facto blueprint for indoor malls throughout 226 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: the rest of the twentieth century. And Gruin embraced all 227 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 3: the love at first, and for about a decade after 228 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 3: the Southdale Mall opened, he gave speeches, he wrote books 229 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: about his creation, and really kind of pondered what he 230 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 3: hoped it would do for American society. But sadly though, 231 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 3: Gruin's view of his work soured in the nineteen sixties 232 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 3: and in the seventies as more malls began to dominate 233 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 3: the landscape. 234 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: I mean they popped up. 235 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 3: Everywhere, and worst of all these copycat malls were built 236 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 3: with tweaked designs aimed at maximizing profit rather than, you know, 237 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: more fostering that sense of community. So he even started 238 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: to see malls that he designed himself in a new light. 239 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: So when he visited some later in life, he wrote 240 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: of the quote severe emotion shock he'd experience, and the 241 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: ugliness and discomfort of the land wasting parking lot that 242 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: sprang up around these. So it definitely changed the way 243 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,359 Speaker 3: he thought about them, and it was a bit disillusioned, 244 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 3: and he decided to move home to Vienna. But when 245 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 3: he got there, he was actually heartbroken to discover that 246 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: the new shopping mall had been built just south of 247 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 3: the old Vienna and that it was driving independent shops 248 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 3: out of business. And as Malcolm Gladwell put it in 249 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 3: a piece for The New Yorker, quote Victor Gruin invented 250 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 3: the shopping mall in order to make America more like Vienna. 251 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: He ended up making Vienna more like America. 252 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: Oh that's awful, But you know, I'm a little confused. 253 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: It sounds like Grewin really hated those giant mall parking lots. 254 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: So were those something that was added later and not 255 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: a part of his original design. 256 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's actually pretty right. 257 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: I mean, Gruen's mall designs included a much more modest 258 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 3: parking lot than the endless stretches of asphalt that we 259 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: were used to associating with malls today. And in fact, 260 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: when Gruin first drew the plans for Southdale, he placed 261 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: it in the center of this four hundred and sixty 262 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 3: three acre plot, and to fill all that surrounding space, 263 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 3: he drew up designs for apartment buildings and schools and 264 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: a park and actually even a man made lake. But 265 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 3: unfortunately none of that ever came to pass, and instead 266 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: the space was used to make this massive parking lot. 267 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: And of course future malls followed suit, and very few 268 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: of them ever adapted Gruin's multi use approach to these developments. 269 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: That is a shame. 270 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 3: You know. 271 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: The whole story kind of reminds me of what happened 272 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: with the inventor of the TV file of Farnsworth. You know, 273 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: he was another guy who saw his invention grow up 274 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: in a way he wasn't expecting and grew to kind 275 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: of hate it over time. 276 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is weird. 277 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: To kind of resent the thing. That's held up as 278 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: the biggest achievement of your life. Right for both these Yeah, and. 279 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: In Gruen's case, he actually took his distaste even further 280 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 3: than Farnsworth by completely disowning his creation. So two years 281 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: before his death, which was in nineteen eighty, Grewin gave 282 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 3: a speech in London and he washed his hands of 283 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: malls entirely. Here's what he told the crowd. I'm often 284 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: called the father of the shopping mall. I would like 285 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 3: to take this opportunity to disclaim paternity once and for all. 286 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 3: I refuse to pay alimony to those bastard developments. They 287 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 3: destroyed our city. 288 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: Okay, well, and now that we've unspooled the long and 289 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: sad history behind the birth of shopping malls, what do 290 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: you say we step inside of one and take a 291 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: closer look at some of the behind the scenes tricks 292 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: that developers use to keep the customer shopping. 293 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: Sounds good, but before we get to that, let's take 294 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: a quick break. You're listening to Part Time Genius and 295 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: we're talking about all the sort of devious design tricks 296 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: that shopping malls use to empty our wallets. But to 297 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 3: be clear, none of the stuff we're about to talk 298 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: about came from Victor Gruin. As you can probably guess 299 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 3: by now, he was fundamentally opposed to any design aimed 300 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: at manipulating customers into spending more money. I think he 301 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 3: would have felt like he was betraying that sense of 302 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 3: community that he was hoping to instill in these malls. 303 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's another dark layer to the story because 304 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: despite his principal approach to design, Gruon still wound up 305 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: having a shady mall tactic named after him. So you 306 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: know how sometimes you get disoriented in a mall or 307 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: a big store, like you're just walking through this giant 308 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: maze and you kind of lose track of where you 309 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: are in the building or how long you've been there. 310 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: That's known as Gruin transfer, and Gruon would have hated 311 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: the name, but the effect is a real thing, and 312 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: stores actually put a lot of effort and thought into 313 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: how to best trigger this reaction in their customers. So 314 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: Victor Gruen might have wanted malls that were easy to navigate, 315 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: but future designers learned that confused shoppers actually spend more money, 316 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: and that's why so many malls have these maze like 317 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: layouts with difficult to find exits, and while you're wandering around, 318 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: other carefully designed, coordinated features kind of do their part 319 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: to keep you feeling up, eat and engage. You can 320 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: think about things like musac that's relaxing and played through 321 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: the pipe speakers, or eye catching entrance displays. And the 322 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: more time you spend in this mall days, the more 323 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: likely you are to make impulse buys. Right, Like, an 324 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: article on New Scientists describes it as being quote confused 325 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: into a state of unplanned consumption. 326 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: I call this the Ikea effect, I think, and all 327 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: this makes sense. I get why they called it after Gruin, 328 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 3: but you know, because he helped build these malls, but 329 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 3: actually helped me out with that last part, the word transfer. 330 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's actually being transferred is the desire to 331 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: have a specific item. So you go to the mall 332 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: to buy a sweater, and it's only a sweater that 333 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: you're looking for, But if the designers play their cards right, 334 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: you'll be so dazzled by the time you get to 335 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: the store that your desire for a sweater will already 336 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: have been transferred to a bunch of different items that 337 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: you never planned on buying. 338 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: Oh okay, that makes sense, But I mean, I'm still curious. 339 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: If Gruin didn't come up with the different sales tricks 340 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: that we find in malls now, then who is responsible 341 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: for that? Like it was just mall architects who followed 342 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: him or what I mean. 343 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: That's where some of the ideas came from and new 344 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: methods were added over the years. Certainly, but a lot 345 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: of the common features in malls actually originated with one 346 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: of Gruen's contemporaries, this fellow storefront designer. His name was A. 347 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: Alfred Tobman, and he goes on to be a huge 348 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: mall mogul. In the late nineteen fifties, Todman followed Gruen's 349 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: lead by building his own indoor shopping mall in California, 350 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: and over the next fifty years or so, he just 351 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: kept on building. So he actually passes away in twenty 352 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: fifteen at the age of ninety one, but his company 353 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: is still going strong, with twenty four malls spread across 354 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: eleven different states plus Puerto Rico's, South Korea and China, 355 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: and each of them incorporate special designs, all developed by 356 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: Tobman over the years. 357 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 3: All right, son, can you give me some examples of 358 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 3: what these designs are. 359 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is going to sound a little hyperbolic, 360 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: which I guess it kind of is. But a lot 361 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: of Todman's innovations were sort of like perversions of what 362 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: Gruon had designed. So, you know, we talked about grew 363 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: and wanting this two level mall. It was so that 364 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: people could circulate easier and bump into more people. But 365 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: Topman kind of took that trick and moved the escalators 366 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: to the ends of the buildings, so you wouldn't meet 367 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: up in the center, but rather you'd have to make 368 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 1: the full loop around the mall and buy more as 369 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: a result. Got it, and Tobman's malls also applied the 370 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: circulation theory to the exteriors. He was actually the first 371 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: to put a circular road around the mall and add 372 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of extra entrances so that shoppers could easily 373 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: get to any part of the building. 374 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 3: That's interesting, And that bit about the moving of the escalators, 375 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 3: I mean, it's such a good example of how a 376 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 3: simple tweak can change the focus from you know, customer 377 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: comfort to something that really more benefits the sellers. And 378 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 3: I'm curious, did you find any other cases like that. 379 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 380 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: So another good example is what Tobman did with the lighting. 381 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: So he kept all the skylights from Gruin's design, but 382 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: he made them recessed so the sunlight would never directly 383 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: affect the storefronts. And he also added these tiny lights 384 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: around the skylights so that when the sun started to 385 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: go down, customers wouldn't take the shift in lighting as 386 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: this queue that it was time to leave. And speaking 387 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: of visibility, Tomman insisted on using transparent handrails in his 388 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: mall so that you could always see the stores around you, 389 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: regardless of what level you were at. I mean, apparently 390 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: it was he was trying to battle something called threshold resistance, 391 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: which I guess refers to both the physical and psychological 392 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: barriers that might prevent a customer from entering a store. 393 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 3: Like they could block your view and keep you from 394 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 3: seeing a store on the upper level that you might 395 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 3: otherwise go inside. 396 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, that's part of it. 397 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, speaking of psychology, we were talking about 398 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 3: Muzac earlier, and I have to mention this weird fact 399 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: I came across this week. So, according to a twenty 400 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 3: eleven report from Stanford, all the malls in America put 401 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 3: together consume more than a gig awot of electricity every 402 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: month just from playing that awful background music that's supposed 403 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 3: to make you shop more. And when you do the 404 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: math on this, that energy usage comes out to three 405 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: thousand metric tons of CO two added to the atmosphere 406 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 3: each year just from this store music. 407 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess not only as an annoying 408 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: and manipulative it's also contributing to climate change. 409 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: Well. 410 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: To be fair, human society emits around thirty giga tons 411 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 3: of greenhouse gases per year, so it's not like three 412 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 3: thousand tons from the mall is doing that much damage. 413 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: But I just thought that that was interesting. 414 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 3: And yeah, of course, once you factor in all the 415 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: energy that malls used to heat, cool, and light these 416 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 3: massive interiors around the clock, their contribution actually starts to 417 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 3: look a bit more significant when you put it in, 418 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: you know, as a whole. 419 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I'm sure. Actually, Gabe was telling me 420 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: about this one mall he visited in Kentucky where there 421 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: were only like two or three actual stores in the 422 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: entire complex still open, like every other one had been shuttered. 423 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: But the a seed, the lights, the escalators, the music, 424 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 1: you know, all of that was still going on throughout 425 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: the building. And that's actually not a one off thing. 426 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: There are hundreds of malls like that across the country. 427 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: I feel like you see them on YouTube a lot, 428 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: like Urban Explorers will we'll go and take videos of them. 429 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: But a lot of these dead malls, as they're call 430 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 1: are actually just limping along kind of on life support, 431 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: like the one he saw in Kentucky. 432 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like we should probably talk a little 433 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: bit about why that is in the state of malls 434 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 3: you know today, But let's take one more quick break 435 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 3: and then we'll get back to that. 436 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part time genius. Okay, So it's been 437 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: sixty three years since the country got its first indoor 438 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: shopping mall, and during that time, as many as fifteen 439 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: hundred more malls have been built in the US, sometimes 440 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: growing at more than twice the rate of the population. 441 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: And you can tell by those numbers that America's malls 442 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: have actually had a great run. But I want to ask, 443 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: how are they holding up in the digital age? Like, 444 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: do the next sixty years look as promising. 445 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: As the first? Oh? Not even close. 446 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 3: I mean it's not fall Yeah, I was going to say, 447 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: thanks for that tough question. I mean, those fifteen hundred 448 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 3: malls you mentioned, we're now down to about eleven hundred. 449 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 3: And you know, if you ask a lot of analysts, 450 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: they project that hundreds more will close over the next 451 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: decade alone. 452 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: So what do you think is behind that decline? Is 453 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: it just, you know, something predictable like online shopping or what? 454 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: Is it? All? 455 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: Right? 456 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 3: Well, maybe cover your ears, because predictable or not, the 457 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: rise of online shopping has definitely done some serious damage 458 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: to the mall industry. And that said, the demise of 459 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 3: brick and mortar retail has been greatly exaggerated though, because 460 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 3: according to the Atlantic, it's actually growing at a rate 461 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 3: of three percent per year. Even e commerce space companies 462 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: like Amazon and Apple, they've doubled down on the physical 463 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: retail game, which is something they definitely wouldn't be doing 464 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: if brick and mortar retail was truly on its way out. 465 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: So why are malls closing then? Why is it so desperate? 466 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 3: Well, to put it simply, our country devotes way way 467 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: too much space to retail stores. So forty eight square 468 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 3: feet per person, to be exact, that is twice as 469 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: much retail space per capita than any other country in 470 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 3: the world, and a lot more than that in some cases, 471 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: four times more than Japan and France, six times more 472 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: than England, nine times more than Italy, eleven times more 473 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: than Germany. I'm just going to keep going. I've got 474 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: fifty seven more of these. But a retail analyst told 475 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 3: CNBC that America is quote the most overstored place in 476 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 3: the world, and when you look at the numbers, it's 477 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: hard to disagree with us. 478 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: So obviously this isn't a new development. We've been hearing 479 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: about urban sprawl for years now, and it was a 480 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: big part of why Gruin turned his back on malls 481 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: entirely in the seventies. So why is the rug being 482 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: pulled out now? Like, did it just take a while 483 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: for the effects of all that retail expansion to manifest? 484 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean again, their arrival of online shopping was 485 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 3: kind of the tipping point in all of this, and 486 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 3: being able to shop at home really shined a spotlight 487 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: on just how out of control retail construction had grown. 488 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 3: So suddenly you had all these empty stores, malls without customers. 489 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 3: So we may have just started seeing the effects recently, 490 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 3: but the so called retail upoclypse has actually been a 491 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 3: long time coming. I mean, the big question now is 492 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 3: what to do with all the unneeded malls that we 493 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 3: already have, And in most case, tearing down a failed 494 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 3: mall is considered too expensive to be a real option. 495 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 3: But leaving them there to just decay, like that's not 496 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 3: an appealing strategy. 497 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: Either, Right, Well, it's not like all the remaining malls 498 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: are going to close. From what I read this week, 499 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: the three hundred or so of the top earning malls 500 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: like they're going to be fine in the long term. 501 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: And those are the fanciest, top tier malls that sit 502 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: in wealthy areas and still bring in a lot of money. 503 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: But the other eight hundred or so lower tier malls, 504 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, you might have to get creative with, like 505 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: if they want to avoid being those sort of YouTube 506 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: spectacles that we were talking about earlier. 507 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, from what I've seen, that's exactly 508 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 3: what a lot of them are doing. Some of them 509 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: are just being straight up repurposed, either as apartment complexes, churches, 510 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 3: or schools. I even read about one old mall that's 511 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 3: been transformed into this enormous indoor paint ball park. 512 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: Which actually kind of sounds kind of amazing. 513 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, but plenty of other malls are being inverted into 514 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 3: what are called lifestyle centers, So that's kind of a 515 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 3: more hip or more upscale take on a mall, with 516 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: specialty stores like Creighton Barrel or Pottery Barn in place 517 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: of the more traditional department store anchors like a Seer's 518 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 3: or a Macy's. So they also focus more on entertainment 519 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 3: options than regular malls do, so in addition to stores 520 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: and restaurants, you might find live music venues, a bowling alley, 521 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: and art galleries, sometimes a built in movie theater. And 522 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 3: a lot of these lifestyle centers are open air too, 523 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 3: with like these facades that make stores look like row houses, 524 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 3: so you get some of that main street feel to them. 525 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I've been to a few of those before. 526 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: There was one being built in Durham years ago, and 527 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, like, you don't have to build a 528 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: mall that looks like an old tobacco warehouse when you've 529 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: got these old tobacco warehouses. 530 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: Just around the corner. But exactly what I do like. 531 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: About this manufacturer of downtown field is that it's kind 532 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: of a throwback to what Victor Gruin wanted for malls 533 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: in the fifties, Like he wanted to bring a touch 534 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: of culture and character to the suburbs by just giving 535 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: people a nice place to gather and socialize and of 536 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: course shop as well. 537 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 538 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 3: I think that's right, And actually in the book I 539 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 3: quoted earlier, grew and wrote that quote. By affording opportunities 540 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 3: for social life and recreation in a protected pedestrian environment, 541 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: by incorporating civic and educational facilities, shopping centers can fill 542 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: an existing void. That's while the classed uplook of a 543 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 3: lifestyle center might seem like the first time malls have 544 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 3: come close to delivering on that promise, I'd actually argue 545 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 3: that even the crasses most commercial malls still did manage 546 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: to fill an important void for a lot of people. 547 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: So what do you mean by that, Well, think back to. 548 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 3: When malls were at their peak in the nineteen eighties 549 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: and even the early nineties. So back then there was 550 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 3: really some social benefit to going to the mall. When 551 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 3: you think about rural and suburban areas, there just weren't 552 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 3: enough people to have the kind of daily interactions that 553 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: you know, so commonplace in cities. So in that sense, 554 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 3: malls were a way to get people into close for 555 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 3: proximity to one another really more prompted this meaningful chance 556 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: encounters for people who might not have met otherwise. And 557 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 3: you know, aside from accessibility to humans, there's also accessibility 558 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 3: to products that malls provided. If you think back in 559 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 3: the dark days before the internet, just so scared even 560 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 3: think about, you know, someone in a place like Minnesota, 561 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: they would have very limited selection of clothing and books 562 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: and music to choose from, and any kind of international 563 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: products would have been next to impossible. But with these 564 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 3: malls coming along, you know, suddenly products from all over 565 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: the country and all over the world really were available 566 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 3: under one gigantic roof. 567 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: Which is a good point. And speaking of mall and 568 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: nostalgia and how different it is from a world where 569 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: we're getting marketed to from our phones and our computers 570 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: and just NonStop. I have a quote here that I 571 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: wanted to share from an author named Ian Bogost, and 572 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: he wrote a great article for the Atlantic that kind 573 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: of served as an elegy for shopping mall culture, and 574 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: this is what he writes, quote, days of hating the 575 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: mall are numbered. When it gets replaced by appletown squares, 576 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: Walmart supercenters, and the online offline sleurry of and ever 577 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: rising Amazon, we will miss those zoos of capitalism, those 578 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: prisons of commerce where consumersm roared and swelled, but inevitably 579 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: remained contained. 580 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 3: I guess you don't know what you've got till it's gone. 581 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: Well, we can't dwell in the past forever. So what 582 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: do you say we head into the fact off and 583 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: share a few of the crazier mall stories we found 584 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: this week? 585 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: All right, let's do it. All right, I'll get a 586 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 3: start and let's see. Well, remember how I said that 587 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 3: America has twice as much retail space per person compared 588 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 3: to the rest of the world. Well, our record is 589 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: even worse when it comes to parking spaces. In total, 590 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 3: the United States has roughly two billion parking spots and 591 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: only about two hundred and fifty million cars to park 592 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 3: in them. That evens out to eight parking spots for 593 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 3: every car in the country, And one of the biggest 594 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 3: contributors to this over supply of parking is, of course, 595 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 3: the giant parking lot that circles the thousand plus shopping 596 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: malls that we have been talking about today. In fact, 597 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 3: there are more than twelve and a half thousand at 598 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 3: the Mall of America. 599 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: Alone, which is so weird. Anyway, there's one person who 600 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: always comes out ahead at malls, no matter what the circumstance, 601 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: and that is Santa Claus. So according to a magazine 602 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: you might be familiar with mental floss. Being a mall 603 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: Santa is a salaried position and can net first timers 604 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: around ten thousand dollars per six week season. And if 605 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: you're a Santa with a little bit more experience under 606 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: your belt, you might actually be able to earn closer 607 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: to thirty thousand dollars per season. Of course, any would 608 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: be Santa's listening should keep in mind most malls typically 609 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: require their Santas to have natural beards, so no false 610 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: is allowed. 611 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 3: Ah okay, all right, well here is a kind of 612 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 3: a weird one. So malls may be on the decline 613 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: in the US, but the business is still booming in 614 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 3: many Asian countries, particularly in China. The only problem is 615 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 3: that a lot of the men there don't seem to 616 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: enjoy shopping nearly as much as their wives do. So 617 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 3: to get around this, some Chinese malls have begun offering 618 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 3: complimentary lounges, specifically for board husbands who would have rather 619 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 3: stayed home. The name for these facilities literally translates to 620 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 3: husband cloak room, which I kind of love. But it 621 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 3: sounds like they offer way more amenities than the average 622 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: code check. I mean this varies from all to mall, 623 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 3: but the lounges typically include you know, these comforts like 624 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 3: Wi Fi, snacks, big TVs, and of course comfortable chairs. 625 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: I love that, and I love the idea of like 626 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: a wife dropping off their husband and claiming a tag 627 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: and then like maybe forgetting to come and get on 628 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: at the end of the day exactly. So this is 629 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,239 Speaker 1: a pretty odd fact. Six malls in southern California now 630 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: feature funeral home kiosks, where shoppers can pick out coffins 631 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: or earned and plan their own funerals. Apparently they even 632 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: have a cremation earned with the La Dodgers logo on it. 633 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: So nice. 634 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: So far. The funeral industry seems to view this whole 635 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: thing as a major win in terms of reaching the 636 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: audience where they're at. There's this one director of International 637 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: Cemetery Creation and Funeral Association who said quote nobody gets 638 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: up on a Saturday morning and says, Gee, it's a 639 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: nice day. I wonder if I can go out and 640 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: get myself a burial plot. But if they're surrounded by happy, 641 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: lively people and maybe clutching a bag of missus Field's cookies, 642 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: the thought is they'll feel differently. 643 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 3: I'm not sure that I agree with that, but it 644 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 3: is pretty interesting, and I guess. 645 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 2: There's a reason they're doing it. 646 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 3: But all right, with the risk of seeming obsessed here, 647 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to steer us back to the exciting world 648 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: of mall parking lots, but for good reason. Here because 649 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 3: I want to share a tip that I came across 650 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: for how to easily find an open space. According to 651 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: mathematician Joe Pagano, all you need to do is find 652 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 3: anile close to the mall entrance, get about twenty full 653 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 3: spaces in your site, and then just stop and wait 654 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: six minutes. 655 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: I love the idea of just stopping like that's not 656 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: upset anyone behind you, But why sex men? 657 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: According to Joe, the average shopper spends one hundred and 658 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 3: twenty minutes in the mall. So if you divide one 659 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 3: hundred and twenty minutes. By the twenty spaces you've zeroed 660 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 3: in on, then you get six minutes. And that's how 661 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 3: long it should take for a shopper to return to 662 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 3: one of those spaces. So if you follow Joe's method, 663 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: that should be the max amount of time you'll spend 664 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: hunting for a spot. 665 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: Well, I do like that one, and I'm going to 666 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: have to try it out the next time I'm craving 667 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: an orange. Julius, I think you end up with the 668 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: trophy for this round. Nicely done, well, thank you so much. 669 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 3: All Right, well, I think that does it for today's 670 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 3: Part Time Genius from Gabe, Tristan, Mangesh and me. 671 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. 672 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 3: We'll be back soon with another episode. 673 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: Part Time Genius is a production of iHeartRadio. 674 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 675 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 676 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: The continu