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Speaker 1: You sound great. I sound even better. Well, I just

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Speaker 1: mean volume wise, And you do have a very good voice,

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Speaker 1: though it's a very comforting like it's a nice voice,

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Speaker 1: a comforting voice. About that. This doesn't come for you.

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Speaker 1: You don't feel like you're being tucked into a soft bed.

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Speaker 1: If you wanted to use your powers for good, you

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Speaker 1: could probably do like dope guided meditations or something. Relax

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Speaker 1: breathe through your mouth. Oh maybe you can't, and try

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Speaker 1: to picture yourself on the edge of a cliff. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, never mind what I said. That's not relaxing.

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Speaker 1: You're on the edge of a cliff looking over a

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Speaker 1: deep hole. It's dark down there. You could fall forever

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Speaker 1: and never die good night. Or you could fall very

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Speaker 1: shortly and die quickly. You never know with a deep hole.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, at Headspace app if you'd like a couple

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Speaker 1: of new guided meditators, we're here. Slip this out and

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Speaker 1: just send it in as my audition, both of our auditions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: come as a as a duo. Perfect. Welcome back, everybody.

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Speaker 1: I'm Eli, I'm Diana. We're here in the recording studio. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's very fancy. There's a toilet, a prison there's a

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Speaker 1: toilet ready here, toilet sink and that's it. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is a boy. This is we're recording inside our own

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Speaker 1: little prison cell. We're bringing you quite a story today.

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Speaker 1: You're joining us on our adventure into our first throuble. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah. We're here to talk about William Marston, Elizabeth Marston,

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Speaker 1: and Olive Byrne. William Marston better known as Charles Moulton,

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Speaker 1: the creator of a Wonder Woman, and the two women

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Speaker 1: who inspired him to do so and really and helped

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Speaker 1: him create it too. We should not minimize air input,

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Speaker 1: especially Elizabeth Holloway Marston. We really had a lot to

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Speaker 1: do with Wonder Woman. This is not an episode about

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Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, Like that's something that we've had to kind

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Speaker 1: of be really cognizantive in our research and putting this

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Speaker 1: episode together, because it's easy to get into the whole

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Speaker 1: of Wonder Woman history and feminism and it's fascinating. There's

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Speaker 1: a whole lot there to learn. I'm sure there are

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Speaker 1: more comics savvy people out there talking about it, but

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Speaker 1: we're really trying to narrow our focus to this particular

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Speaker 1: romance between these three people. I guess among these three

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Speaker 1: people is the grammatically correct way to say that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: between is two a month more than two, so let's

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Speaker 1: get into it. Yeah, hey their French, come listen. Well,

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Speaker 1: Elia and Diana got some stories to tell. There's no

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Speaker 1: matchmaking a romantic tips. It's just about particulous relationships. I love.

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Speaker 1: It might be any type of person at all, and

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Speaker 1: abstract concept on a concrete wall. But if there's a

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Speaker 1: story to again, glance ridiculous. A production of I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio William Marston is I'm going to quote our vet

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Speaker 1: when she talked about our dog Hobbs. He's a complicated guy.

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Speaker 1: It's a great note about Hobbs. By the way, Marston

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Speaker 1: is someone who I think has some positive ideas and

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Speaker 1: some questionable behaviors. I think you kind of have to

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Speaker 1: back up and look at everything to really kind of

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Speaker 1: make sense of him, because you hear one thing and

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Speaker 1: you're like, Wow, this guy was ahead of his time,

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Speaker 1: and then you hear something else and you're like, damn,

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Speaker 1: this guy was a piece of shit. And in speaking

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Speaker 1: of piece of ship, let's not set aside just right

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Speaker 1: up front here, there are some early Wonder Woman comics

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Speaker 1: that have been called out as being very racist and

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Speaker 1: it's hard not to tie that into Marston himself and

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Speaker 1: kind of assumed that maybe he was a big old racist.

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Speaker 1: Jillipor wrote an article in the Smithsonian magazine called The

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Speaker 1: Surprising Origin of Wonder Woman that she had written a

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Speaker 1: book in the same year called The Secret History of

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Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, where she found thousands of documents and archives

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Speaker 1: and all these collections and private letters and papers of

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Speaker 1: the family that nobody else had seen before. And she

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Speaker 1: calls him the man of a thousand lives and a

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Speaker 1: thousand lies. I think that's a pretty good story. Good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: put it on his business card. Yeah. So he was

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Speaker 1: born in and he went to Harvard in he was

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Speaker 1: twenty years old, and he sold a screenplay called The Thief.

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Speaker 1: And this was directed by French filmmaker Alice gi Blach,

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Speaker 1: who's amazing. She's the first woman to direct a film.

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Speaker 1: And she was also a woman who pioneered the acting

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Speaker 1: style of just being natural on screen. Of course when

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Speaker 1: they're making films. There was coming at Red out of Oddville,

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Speaker 1: so people were in theater and people were being very

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Speaker 1: big in their reactions, and she kind of realized that

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Speaker 1: with a camera you don't really need all that. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to talk about else Blache today, but

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Speaker 1: you should look her up. She's dope. Yeah, she's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Other than that, just not really much note worthy about

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Speaker 1: Marston's early years before he met Elizabeth Elizabeth Holloway. So

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Speaker 1: let's meet Elizabeth Holloway. Yeah. Elizabeth was born in eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three on the Isle of Man but was raised

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Speaker 1: in Boston. Boston University notes that in an era when

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Speaker 1: few women earned higher degrees, Elizabeth received three, So she's

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Speaker 1: a boss academic boss. She got a b A in

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Speaker 1: psychology in nineteen fifteen at Mount Holyoke College. Wasn't Mount

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Speaker 1: Holyoke where Emily Dickinson went, That's right. I'm also researching

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Speaker 1: Emily Dickinson right now, and I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: she also went there. Anyway, she was engaged to William

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Speaker 1: and would have loved to attend Harvard Law School at

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Speaker 1: the same time as him. Um, and she was asked

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Speaker 1: in an interview about that, Elizabeth, what's your take on

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Speaker 1: not going to Harvard Law School? Those dumb bunnies at

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Speaker 1: Harvard wouldn't take women, so I went to Boston University.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what she sounds like Betty Boop. I

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Speaker 1: went to Boston University, like Harley Quinn. Well, Harley Quinn

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Speaker 1: also got a degree in psychology. So anyway, so she

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Speaker 1: went to Boston University, and she pushed through school in

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Speaker 1: spite of her father. She had asked him to help

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Speaker 1: her with the one hundred dollar tuition, which I want

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Speaker 1: to I want to play a little game here and

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Speaker 1: talk about prices. So Boston University one hundred dollar tuition,

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Speaker 1: which is the equivalent of two thousand, six hundred dollars today.

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Speaker 1: So Diana, come on down. I want you to tell

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Speaker 1: us what you think the price of Boston University's School

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Speaker 1: of Law is today. Remember that price adjusted for inflation

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Speaker 1: would be two thousand, six hundred dollars, two thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: in Boston. I'm going to say eighty thousand dollars. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: eighty dollars. I'm sorry. By prices, right rules, you actually

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Speaker 1: went over, so you lose, but your heart was in

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Speaker 1: the right place because it is insanely expensive. It is

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Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars per year today. Yeah, I figured actually

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Speaker 1: wouldn't even cover the books. I don't think so. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's an increase of like a jillion percent. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I didn't go to a good college because I couldn't

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Speaker 1: afford it. Yeah, if only we gone to Boston University. Well,

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Speaker 1: her father didn't want a pony up the hundred dollar

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Speaker 1: tuition um in at Boston University publication Who was Wonder

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Speaker 1: Woman one by Marguerite Lamb. She writes that, according to

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth's granddaughter, he said to her, as long as I

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Speaker 1: have money to keep you in aprons, you can stay

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Speaker 1: home with your mother. I wouldn't well, I guess I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't punch my father, but it would be real hard.

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Speaker 1: So she had to raise the money herself. And Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't gotten the clue yet, is a boss.

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Speaker 1: So she said, I'm gonna go sell cookbooks to local

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Speaker 1: ladies clubs. Probably took a little while, but by the

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Speaker 1: end of summer she had raised a hundred dollars selling cookbooks,

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Speaker 1: and she and William married in September, just as the

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Speaker 1: school year was arting. But she insisted on paying her

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Speaker 1: own way because she had just done all this work.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen she became one of the three women to

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Speaker 1: graduate from the School of Law that year. She said

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Speaker 1: that she finished the Massachusetts Bar exam so fast that

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Speaker 1: she had to go outside and wait for William to finish. Well,

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Speaker 1: you've done already, what like it's hard. Elizabeth finishes in

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Speaker 1: record time and then William stumbles out of there. Eventually

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Speaker 1: both of them take their law degrees that they just

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Speaker 1: got and they joined Harvard psychology program. William goes for

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Speaker 1: his doctorate. Women aren't allowed to enter the doctorate program

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Speaker 1: at Harvard, So even though she kicked more ass on

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Speaker 1: the exam and presumably all through school, it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: but you can't come here. You gotta go to Radcliffe College,

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Speaker 1: which is Harvard's female coordinate institution. At the time, they're like, okay, fine, fine,

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Speaker 1: mine will educate women, but we have to do it

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Speaker 1: over there, separate, b equal. It's always worked perfectly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So while at Harvard, William Marston's mentor was a guy

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Speaker 1: named doctor Hugol Munsterberg who was a founder of applied psychology.

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Speaker 1: His work is important in the history of psychology, although

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Speaker 1: his name is not mentioned very much. But why not,

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Speaker 1: Well he had some interesting views, for one, on women.

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Speaker 1: According to his biography on very well mind dot com,

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Speaker 1: he believed that women should be able to receive a

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Speaker 1: higher education right, but graduate studies were too difficult and demanding. Also,

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Speaker 1: he believed that women should not be allowed to serve

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Speaker 1: on juries because they were quote incapable of rational deliberation. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well I don't think I'm capable of rational deliberation about

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Speaker 1: that quote he and I need to go outside. One

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Speaker 1: of my fistic is called rational and the other is

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Speaker 1: called deliberation. You're getting them both in the faith. So uh.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, he also went ahead and appointed himself

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Speaker 1: as the spokesperson for Germany during World War One. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: a couple of black marks on his record there. You

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Speaker 1: can see why he wasn't celebrated despite his valuable contributions

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Speaker 1: to psychology. So in nineteen sixteen, this guy, Dr Munsterberg

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Speaker 1: is quote hated by more Americans than any psychologist before

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Speaker 1: or since. It's not making friends out there, but he's

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Speaker 1: still teaching. The nineteen sixteen he's given a class, and

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Speaker 1: he's given a lecture some something along the lines I'm

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Speaker 1: sure of like women are so crazy. That's like women

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Speaker 1: be like when I asked them, where do you want

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Speaker 1: to go for dinner? They're like, Oh, I don't care

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Speaker 1: but then you tell a place and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: not there please. And the other thing about what I'd

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Speaker 1: like to pull in the speculation station and say that

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Speaker 1: I think the students probably killed a lot of your

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Speaker 1: speculations above. Who murdered I just I just paint everyone

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Speaker 1: as a murderer. Well they had a damn good reason.

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Speaker 1: I could see them like, oh no, no, he died, professor,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't salck. So that is why Dr Munsterberg himself

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Speaker 1: gets very little space in the psychology books, um, despite

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Speaker 1: his ideas continuing to shape and contribute to modern psychology.

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Speaker 1: So here's the thing, and here's where it ties back in.

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Speaker 1: Munsterberg himself was very interested in lie detection and using

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Speaker 1: physiological indicators to read how truthful people were being when

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Speaker 1: they were speaking, and William Marston picked up his work

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Speaker 1: from there and this became kind of a focus of his. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth actually told him that her blood pressure would change

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Speaker 1: when she got mad or excited, and this became the

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Speaker 1: foundation of their research on the project. According to an

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Speaker 1: appendix in the National Academy papers Polygraph and Lie Detection,

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Speaker 1: she isn't listed as a collaborators, but many authors referenced

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Speaker 1: her contributions to his deception research, and she appears in

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Speaker 1: a picture taking in his polygraph library. Library. What's the

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Speaker 1: polygraph library? Just all the lies people told them. They're like,

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Speaker 1: maybe that'll be a good story later. Um No. She

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Speaker 1: appears in a picture taken in his polygraph laboratory in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. I think it's interesting that she Why

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Speaker 1: do you think she walked up to him one day

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Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, whenever I'm real mad, my

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Speaker 1: blood pressure goes up. I'm sure it has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with anything he was doing, but together they did

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Speaker 1: work on this. Their work focused on systolic blood pressure

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Speaker 1: readings as a means for lie detection, and he pushed

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Speaker 1: really hard for polygraphs to be used in courts. This

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Speaker 1: was the first really instance of that when someone was

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Speaker 1: coming to the legal system and saying, hey, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you when people are lying. And after World War

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Speaker 1: which at the time was like the R and D

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Speaker 1: branch of the Council of National Defense, and he told them,

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Speaker 1: you got to look into my polygraph work. We could

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Speaker 1: be detecting spies and things like that. You could use

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Speaker 1: this in so many ways. And they looked into it,

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Speaker 1: and they basically came back and said pretty much the

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Speaker 1: same thing that we say about lie detectors today. There's

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Speaker 1: too many variables, we can't pull really reliable testimony from it.

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Speaker 1: It's not solid enough for us to say it's accurate. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: it's really just tainting the evidence. So they played with

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Speaker 1: it for a while, but it didn't really take off.

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Speaker 1: According to Matthew J. Brown, a professor of philosophy at

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Speaker 1: UT Dallas, Marston was a tireless popularizer of psychology. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a point when like psychology wasn't necessarily I think,

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Speaker 1: a household thing, and Marston put out articles in like

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Speaker 1: Cosmo and Good Housekeeping and Readers Digest, and he was

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Speaker 1: trying to bring it into the home. He was trying

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Speaker 1: to tell people like, you know, hey, psychology is kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting and we can use it to be happier

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Speaker 1: with ourselves. Right. He had this vision of psychology as

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Speaker 1: like a progressive and liberating force, as opposed to earlier

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Speaker 1: psychologists that were like, let's find out what's wrong with

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Speaker 1: you and fix it. He was sort of like, why

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Speaker 1: don't we just find out what's interesting about us and

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Speaker 1: and enjoy it. I mean that's very interesting. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: said that psychology could teach us to live, love, laugh,

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Speaker 1: and be happy. Marston originated live Laugh Love. I don't

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Speaker 1: think he's getting a cut of any of those cute

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Speaker 1: signs you can buy at the hobby lob. That's why

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Speaker 1: they changed it. The live Love Laugh was Marston's and

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Speaker 1: then they said live laugh, Love, and we can sell

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Speaker 1: this appear one, so it's and they both graduate. Marguerite

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Speaker 1: Lamb says, quote that year, Elizabeth punched into work and

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Speaker 1: didn't punch out for thirty five years. Elizabeth Holloway Marston

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Speaker 1: loved working. She fucking loved it. She taught at universities.

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Speaker 1: She would lecture on law and ethics, and then she

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Speaker 1: worked as an editor for Encyclopedia Britannica. Smart. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: imagined editing an encyclopedia, like I guess a lot of

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Speaker 1: people can, because you can do Wikipedia now and it

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Speaker 1: seems hard to me be a lot harder at the

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Speaker 1: time without the Internet. A lot of time in libraries,

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Speaker 1: that's true, you have to double check and triple check

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Speaker 1: all your stuff because everybody's going to check you as

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Speaker 1: their main source. So you gotta get that ship right.

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Speaker 1: It's like, how, um, let me get the pronunciations right

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Speaker 1: sometimes in these podcasts, because I'll go look for a

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Speaker 1: person's pronunciation of their name and it won't be out there,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, God, next time somebody googles that, they're

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Speaker 1: going to find our podcast and they're going to take

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Speaker 1: our pronunciation as a source. I never thought about. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's important to It's important if you're putting information out

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Speaker 1: in the world to make sure it's exaccurate as possible

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Speaker 1: because somebody's listening to you, damn it, even if you're

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Speaker 1: just some dumb comedians in your bathroom. Right. So, meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: William Marston went to teach at American University and then

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Speaker 1: Tufts University, which is where he met a student by

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Speaker 1: the name of Olive Burne. Yes, but before we get

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Speaker 1: to Olive, let's take a moment to hear from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: All right, and we're back here talking about Mary olive Byrne.

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Speaker 1: Mary Olive Byrne was born in nineteen o four, the

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Speaker 1: daughter of Ethel Burne. Ethel was a Progressive era activist

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Speaker 1: who opened the first birth control clinic in the US

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Speaker 1: with her sister, Margaret Singer. Margaret Sanger, I know her.

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Speaker 1: She's from the thing, She's from lots of things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so she's already got an historic background and sturdy roots

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Speaker 1: in coolness minus theugenics. Right. Yeah, there's Margaret Sanger. Another

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Speaker 1: complicated figure in feminist history. Very true. But from the

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Speaker 1: age of two to ten, she was raised by her grandparents.

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Speaker 1: Her mother had taken her and her brother there to

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Speaker 1: escape from her abusive father. When their grandparents died, she

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Speaker 1: was sent to an orphanage. In nineteen seventeen, her mother

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Speaker 1: was arrested for passing out information about birth control, and

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Speaker 1: she went on a hunger strike in prison. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen, this was kind of a famous moment

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Speaker 1: in sort of feminist history when ethel Byrne and Margaret

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Speaker 1: Sanger were handing out pamphlets on birth control and it

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Speaker 1: was really blowing people's minds. It was kind of the

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Speaker 1: reefer madness of its day. You know, everyone was was fearmongrains.

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Speaker 1: So this is going to lead to just you know,

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Speaker 1: moral chaos and the whole world's going to fall apart. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's just like in Mars attacks when the Aliens her

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Speaker 1: just splat inside their own helmets, people's heads bursting. Women

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Speaker 1: don't have to be pregnant. Oh yeah, so Ethel's having

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Speaker 1: this hunger strike in prison. So Margaret Singer went and

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Speaker 1: found Alive Byrne at the orphanage and told her about

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Speaker 1: her mother and her work. So, when Olive was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: she met her mother for the first time in ten years,

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Speaker 1: and she went to go live with them, and she

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Speaker 1: started getting exposed to her mother and her aunt's feminist work.

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Speaker 1: Her mother sent her to Toughs University to study medicine,

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Speaker 1: which easy, peasy, It's only a hundred dollars. What could

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Speaker 1: it cost Michael a hundred dollars? Olive joined the sorority

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Speaker 1: Alpha on the kron Pot and she was a statuesque woman.

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Speaker 1: She was thin with black hair and blue eyes. She

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Speaker 1: was tall and in she's twenty one and a senior

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Speaker 1: at TUPS University, and she took a psychology class that

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Speaker 1: was taught by Dr William Marston. Yeah, she was totally

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Speaker 1: into that class. She ended up becoming his research assistant.

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Speaker 1: And this is weird. She would take him into her

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Speaker 1: sorority for research on some interesting subjects. For example, the

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Speaker 1: notorious baby party experiment. There are articles written about this experiment.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there's one called the Unethical Trials of William

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Speaker 1: Marston on Rampages dot Us and it says that Marston

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Speaker 1: conducted many experiments, very few were without ethical infractions. The

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Speaker 1: goals of these trials were in themselves very promising, but

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Speaker 1: the way in which they were carried out were questionable,

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Speaker 1: if not altogether indecent. Yeah, so just to give you

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Speaker 1: a picture, let's paint a picture of a baby party

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Speaker 1: from you and you can probably guess it's gonna I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I kind of pictured a lot of baby

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Speaker 1: like actual babies, Okay, I figured. But yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: sorority hazing ritual. It tufts and somehow I'll have convinced

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Speaker 1: the sorority to let this older guy into watch this

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Speaker 1: bay thing, which also seems like a long shot, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, who knows how much say they had in it.

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Speaker 1: So for a t A to come in and tell

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Speaker 1: all these freshman and sophomores, Hey, my professor is going

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Speaker 1: to come watch the hazing ritual tonight. Like oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: I guess, but they did it. He was there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the okay, so the hazing part is that freshman

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Speaker 1: members were addressed as babies and ordered to do certain

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Speaker 1: things by the sophomores, and if they didn't do the command,

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Speaker 1: they got a spanking. And it sounds like a porn.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this porn already exists. I think it's

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Speaker 1: definitely the setup for several hundreds of thousands of porn

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Speaker 1: movies out there, hundreds of thousands. It sounds fake like

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Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds, but this is what they were doing.

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Speaker 1: Jillapoor says that after the party, he and Olive interviewed

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Speaker 1: participants and he noted, quote the pleasantness of captivation emotion,

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Speaker 1: which is the people doing the capturing the people more

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Speaker 1: or less. Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of about that relationship there. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of in Marston's work, like what we would might call

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Speaker 1: early B D s M exploration. He's really looking at

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Speaker 1: the dynamic between the captor and the captive. He wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called The Emotions of Normal People, and this

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Speaker 1: book was basically a defense against sexual taboos, among other things.

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Speaker 1: Here's a quote from it. He said, quote nearly all

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Speaker 1: the sophomores reported excited, pleasantness of captivation emotion through the party.

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Speaker 1: The pleasantness of their captivation responses appeared to increase when

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Speaker 1: they were obliged to overcome rebellious freshmen physically or to

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Speaker 1: induce them by repeated commands and added punishments to perform

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Speaker 1: the actions from which the captive girls strove to escape. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I am imagine he's watching a bunch of like giggling

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Speaker 1: schoolgirls tease each other by being fake disciplinary like t

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Speaker 1: he you better, you better go. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: they were telling them to do. It would be good

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Speaker 1: to know what they had to do, like clean something, maybe,

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Speaker 1: I think so. I think they were pretty innocuous like that,

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Speaker 1: like if you know it's grub out the sink, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna get us bank in and then they know I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna and they left, and they were kind of

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Speaker 1: having lighthearted fun. And Marston took this as it's basically

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Speaker 1: like it's fun when people tie other people up and

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Speaker 1: make them do things for some yeah, for some yes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's where Marston's analysis gets a little weird,

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Speaker 1: where it's a little too blanket statement, a little too

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Speaker 1: much like if this is true, then it's always true

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Speaker 1: for everyone. I'm thinking of the prison experiment where they

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Speaker 1: made they took that class. This was definitely after this,

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Speaker 1: I think, But they took that class and made some

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Speaker 1: of them guards and some of them prisoners the guards

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Speaker 1: and were immediately like super brutal and like terrible to

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Speaker 1: their classmates or whatever. And it's just kind of funny

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Speaker 1: to like compare these two, yeah, because I know it's

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Speaker 1: not a prison situation, but it's funny to be like,

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Speaker 1: t go clean out this thing, ha, and then there's

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Speaker 1: like all these other like in a prison being like

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Speaker 1: just abusive, you know what I mean. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a good point because I think that's the difference

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Speaker 1: between the two is what's the undercurrent, what's the dynamic

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Speaker 1: that you're building? You know, In the sorority situation, it

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Speaker 1: was meant to be kind of silly, I think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a baby party, Like, how silly is that as

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Speaker 1: a setup? As opposed to this prison experiment, whereas you

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Speaker 1: are in charge of these bad people and you're their

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Speaker 1: disciplinarians in a in a very in a much more

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Speaker 1: serious way, that's true. So that's a difference to the response.

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Speaker 1: For sure. Yeah, I almost feel like somebody should tell

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Speaker 1: Marston about the prison experiment and be like, yeah, not always.

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Speaker 1: This is not always fun. Sometimes it brings out your

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Speaker 1: worst qualities. But I think you're right, and it really

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Speaker 1: depends in the power dynamic um as it's true and

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Speaker 1: in b D s M. I think the power dynamic

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Speaker 1: is everything trust, the level of trust. Nor Burlatsky from

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic, he wrote a lot about Marston and Wonder Woman,

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Speaker 1: really interesting stuff, and and he writes in this one

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Speaker 1: blog about the difference between Marston's view of sexual taboo

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Speaker 1: versus Freud's, and I think this is kind of goes

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Speaker 1: to what we were saying. Uh, Burlatsky says, quote, My

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Speaker 1: general take on Freud is that he thinks everyone is abnormal,

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Speaker 1: so it's normal to be unhealthy and neurotic in the

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Speaker 1: sense that it's typical, but not in the sense that

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Speaker 1: it's healthy. The oedibus complex is something to be overcome,

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Speaker 1: ideally or worked through, whereas Marston seems to believe that

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Speaker 1: everyone's abnormal kinks are healthy and normal, more or less,

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Speaker 1: especially women's. So that Marston is saying, look, if you

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Speaker 1: want to be tied up and have fun with it,

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Speaker 1: that's good, that's great. You should celebrate that and not

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Speaker 1: You should find the reason for that. You should talk

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Speaker 1: about your parents and find out why that is, and

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Speaker 1: then you'll stop, yeah, and stop liking it more importantly. Right,

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Speaker 1: But back to our Romanceam and Olive bonded over class

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Speaker 1: and these experiments and more, and of course they end

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Speaker 1: up falling in love. Yeah, big ethical cringe face, because

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Speaker 1: of course he's a professor and her boss us a

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Speaker 1: little bit older than her. Of course she's not under

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Speaker 1: age or anything like that. And we don't know if

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00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: they were sleeping together while he was still in this position.

424
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: We really don't know if their sexual relationships started before

425
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: after he was her supervisor or teacher. Um, so we

426
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: can only speculate. But well, another big ethical cringe is that,

427
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: according to Jill Lapoor's book, he presented his wife Elizabeth

428
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: with an ultimatum, either Ali comes to live with the

429
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: two of us, or you and I are done. Yeah,

430
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth apparently walked out the door and walked without

431
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: stopping for six hours. Elizabeth had energy. I'm just she

432
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: had energy. I wish I had some of that. I'll

433
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: have whatever, Elizabeth Holloway Marston saven. She did, and she

434
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: could move. Really this is this is the first account

435
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: of that, although Lapoor is the person who got to

436
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: go through all these old family letters and stuff, so

437
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: if anybody knows, it's her. Olive and Elizabeth remained close

438
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: for the rest of their lives, so it doesn't seem

439
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: like they were living in a lifestyle against their will,

440
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: but perhaps the origins of that lifestyle may have been

441
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: highly questionable, if not downright abusive. Right, Elizabeth was kind

442
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: of put in a really difficult situation because she was

443
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: already fighting really hard against this oppressive system. She had

444
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: already made such great strides. I mean, she was working

445
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 1: her ass off, and part of that is because of

446
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: her relationship with William, who was felt the same way.

447
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: He was open to women's liberation. He liked not every

448
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: husband would have been cool with her going out and

449
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: getting multiple degrees and working every day and everything. So

450
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: that's that's very true. But that in and of itself

451
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: kind of became a trap because now she's stuck with him.

452
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: If she wants to live that lifestyle, it's not his trap,

453
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: but it's just this like social trap. It's like this

454
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: guy said, I have to take this other woman into

455
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: my home. And if I say no, I can say

456
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: no to basically everything in my life. Probably she also

457
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: did really want children, so met with that ultimatum, you

458
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: can see why she just sort of had to say yes.

459
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: But then it's very unclear as to how happy she

460
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: was in this. Lapoor writes that before Olive even came along,

461
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: they actually did have another polyamorous relationship with another woman

462
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: named Marjorie Huntley. And Marjorie Huntley stayed in their lives

463
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: and would come and go throughout their lives for years

464
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: decades to come, really, but they did live together, and

465
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: when asked about the relationship, they would lie. They had

466
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: to say to the census takers that Olive was Elizabeth's

467
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: widowed sister in law, or they told William's mother that

468
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: she was their widowed housekeeper. And during the years that

469
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: they lived together, instead of a wedding ring, Olive war

470
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: large metal bracelets. Yeah, it seems from all accounts like

471
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: they three of them were very happy together. Lapore describes

472
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: a sex cult in to nine, which usually doesn't end well.

473
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: I feel a sex cult usually a tragic story. So

474
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: they held a sex cult anyway that they held at

475
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: Marston's aunt's house can you imagine asking your aunt, my aunt, hey,

476
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 1: can we get the house for a weekend. I promise

477
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: I'll change the sheets. Any cameras do you if you do,

478
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: that's great, that's great. I'd love to be able to watch.

479
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: Do you mind if I install a mirror on the ceiling.

480
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 1: It's for a good reason. I promised. Huntley was there too,

481
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: their previous polyamorous partner from the Atlantic Quote. Participants celebrated

482
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: female sexual power, dominance, submission, and love by forming love

483
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: units consisting of multiple partners, including love girls who were

484
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: basically nudists. And they would get into deep into conversation

485
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: at these meetings about Margaret Sanger and her work, which

486
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: William found fascinating, which I love that they had a

487
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: sex cult that like with like an intellectual salon as well,

488
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: reminds me of like but what Lord Byron was it? Yeah,

489
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: you know they get together to philosophize and just talk

490
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: about psychology. They were all super into psychology, of course,

491
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: and they just get together and hang out, and you know,

492
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: Olive Byrne of course has this deep connection to Margaret

493
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: Sanger and deathel Byrne and the feminist strong feminist movements

494
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: of the day, and that's William is surrounded by women

495
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: who are very progressive and forward thinking, and I think

496
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: that became the foundation for a lot of his thinking. See, men,

497
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: if you let smart women into your life, you'll really

498
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: improve your quality of thinking. I mean, that's that's been

499
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: true for a long time, and maybe your sex life.

500
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: And yes, if you let multiple women into your life,

501
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: you might improve your sex life. But you don't expect mean,

502
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: I know I was about to say, I don't think

503
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: that you should expect all the smart women you let

504
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: into your life to just suddenly decide to fuck you

505
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: and each other at the same time. But I will

506
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: say that if you have smart women in your life,

507
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: you become a type of gentlemen who will attract sexy,

508
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: awesome ladies. So even if they don't fuck more than

509
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: one person, they will fuck you real well, that's a guarantee.

510
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: I let all these smart women to my wife, and

511
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: none of them are having sex with me. What am

512
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: I doing wrong? I wonder why? So anyway, So, William

513
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: had a deep interest in Margaret Sanger, and he shared

514
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: a belief with her that women were purer and better

515
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: than men, and that their loving nature made them better

516
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: leaders naturally, right, which I think has some some truth

517
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: to it. I think we can still agree to that today,

518
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: that in a lot of instances we can see women

519
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: being better leaders than men and being more empathetic and

520
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: things like that. That's true, especially if you look at

521
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: world leaders, particularly during the pandemic, and like what countries

522
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: did better. It was noted several times that they had

523
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: women leaders. Coincidence not I'm just kidding. Well. It's also

524
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: a viewpoint that I think the conclusion matches modern feminist beliefs,

525
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: But like Burlatsky wrote in The Atlantic, that view sits

526
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: very uncomfortably with the current feminist movement, which often sees

527
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: discussions of feminine purity as an excuse to restrict what

528
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: women are allowed to do. I took that to mean,

529
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: like he's thinking about high priestesses or something. Women, you're

530
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: so much better and elevated and superior to men, So

531
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: go live, close yourself off in that temple and and

532
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: take a vow of celibacy for thirty years. That's the extreme.

533
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: We women are so delicate and pure and innocent that

534
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: working or having any any life outside of home and

535
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: family is too much. Yeah, too much for them. More

536
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: of a gilded cage, I guess, but still a cage.

537
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: So you know, you can see that William had some

538
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: strong feminist undercurrents in his belief but maybe the practice

539
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: was a little misplaced. You can kind of look at

540
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: this different ways. I think you can say, Oh, here

541
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: was a guy who really believed that women should have

542
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: the freedom to work as much as they want and

543
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: educate them selves. And I want to support them in

544
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: their beliefs. And I'm out there right in psychology and

545
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: saying like women are better than men, honestly. But like

546
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 1: Catha polit writes in The Atlantic, Marston had a sweet

547
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: thing going too, remarkably smart, adoring women to cater to

548
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: his every need, each apparently believing she'd landed in feminist heaven.

549
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: So there's that kind of angle to It's like, yeah, maybe,

550
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: But also he was also kind of get to funk

551
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: both of you. One of you stays home and takes

552
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: care of our kids while the two of us make

553
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: money that we can spend. We aren't you so happy

554
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: beyond that one of us can stay home and take

555
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: care of the kids, the other one can have a stable,

556
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: high paying career, and I can bounce around from thing

557
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: to thing, sometimes totally failing, and not really have to

558
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: worry about it because Elizabeth held a much more steady

559
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: job than he did. He was and he was always

560
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: getting into trouble people who are always like really iffy

561
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: about his beliefs and viewpoints. As much as he popularized

562
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: psychology in the home, he also kind of depopularized himself

563
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: over the years too. He really kept pushing for the

564
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: slide detector thing, and no one was getting on board

565
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: with that. He developed the DISC system, which is a

566
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: personality assessment system, and this is pretty much it's been

567
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: quoted as being like the astrology of psychology today there

568
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: it's not talked about so similar to Munsterberg. I feel

569
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: like he had some valuable contributions, but it's not like

570
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: people are not worshiping his psychology in At the age

571
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: of thirty five, Elizabeth had her first child, Pete, and

572
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: then later birth to daughter named Olive Ann, and she

573
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: continued working even after childbirth, which was pretty unheard of

574
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: at that time. That was due in part to the

575
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: fact that Olive wanted to stay home and take care

576
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: of the children. Olive and William had two of their

577
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: own so they have four kids in all. Yeah, Elizabeth

578
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: working all of rays the kids, and William was, like

579
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: we said, doing his kind of random stuff out there.

580
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: He published a bunch of articles, he had books and

581
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: journals and moved more into feminism and progressivism you know

582
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: of the time. But he did get very into pop culture.

583
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: I mean, he wrote that screenplay when he was twenty,

584
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: sold that, and now he was getting into the movie

585
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: system a little bit more. He wrote a book about

586
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: how to write screenplays that were quote healthy and appealing,

587
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 1: and he went on to work as a consultant for

588
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: Universal Pictures and d C Comics. So in steps Maxwell Gains,

589
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: the man who popularized comic books in nineteen thirty three.

590
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: But comics were kind of nationally disrespected I guess at

591
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: that time. There's a Chicago Daily News article in ninety

592
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: that called them a national disgrace and said ten million

593
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: copies of these sex horror cereals are sold every month

594
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: and called for them to be banned. I mean it

595
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: sounds like the free market to me. It's like the

596
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: reformdness thing all over against like birth control being availed.

597
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: Oh it's gonna menace to society. And now it's comic

598
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: books there a menace to society. It's just whatever. People

599
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: are opening their minds too. At the time, somebody else

600
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: is going to say, hey, now I like the way

601
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: I like things the way they are the kids these days.

602
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: So in Maxwell gains hires William Marston as a consultant.

603
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: Lapore writes that if Gaines had known about Marston's unconventional lifestyle,

604
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: he probably wouldn't have called him. They kept their throuble

605
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: of secret, but Gaines was specifically looking to avoid controversy

606
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: and not invite it. But he'd heard about Marston in

607
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: an interview in Family Circle magazine by an interviewer named

608
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: Olive Richard. She had interviewed him several times, and he

609
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: said that comics had a lot of educational potential. She

610
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: said in the interview, well, hey, comic books are full

611
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: of torture and kidnapping and other cruel business. But Marston replied,

612
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: unfortunately that is true. But when a lovely heroine is

613
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: bound to the stake, comics readers are sure that the

614
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: rescue will arrive in the nick of time. The reader's

615
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: wishes to save the girl, not see her suffer. Man,

616
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: if you're like me, and are like, wow, there's a

617
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: lot of Olives in this story. What a popular name.

618
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: It turns out it was Olive all Burn was working

619
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: for Family Circle magazine and she interviewed Marston under the

620
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: pseudonym Olive Richard. So there's nothing like a sympathetic interviewer,

621
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,479
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And it was just free

622
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: publicity for Marston. It's just true. He's like, I I know,

623
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: just the gal for this job. But anyway, Gain sees

624
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: that interview and he's like, yes, he says, this is

625
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: the guy I want to wash back a coup the criticism,

626
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: Bring some damn legitimacy to comics, and bring me some

627
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: pictures of Spider Man. He well, like world War two

628
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: is ramping up comics, Heroes are coming out of the

629
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: ass of America. There's just this is the birth of

630
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: many of the heroes we know today. Superman and Batman

631
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: had just popped up a year earlier, Goat in America

632
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: was in development. Green Landard was fresh on the page.

633
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: You know, all these all these heroes, and Marston looked

634
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: at what they had and he said, yeah, this is great.

635
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: He did like Superman's altruism, but he thought that these

636
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: guys were too tough and brutal, and so much of

637
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: what was happening was still based on fear and vengeance.

638
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: So when he talks to Gains, he says, we need

639
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: a hero that is about love and optimism and fighting

640
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: for truth. And this is all coming out of I

641
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: think his history. I mean, now that we know him

642
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth and Olive better, we can sort of see

643
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: why this would be the direction that Marston would want

644
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: to go in with comics. And Marguerite Lamb writes that

645
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: he took the idea home to Elizabeth and she said, fine,

646
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: but make her a woman. And there's a damn fine idea, ma'am.

647
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: In Wonder Woman made her debut in All Star Comics.

648
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: But let's just take a little quick break and be

649
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: right back after this, and we're back. Marston wrote under

650
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: the pen name of Charles Moulton, maybe because comics had

651
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: this terrible reputation in in the nation being this utter

652
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: disgrace or whatever, and so he kind of was like,

653
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: I don't want my own name attached to this in

654
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: case it doesn't go well. Yeah, that was kind of

655
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: the the idea that was put out there. But I thought, well,

656
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: his own reputation was kind of failing, so I thought

657
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: maybe he thought it was better for Wonder Woman if

658
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: he didn't put his own name on it. It's like

659
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: this guy whose reputation sucks working on a in a

660
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: product that reputation, right. So anyway, he wrote under the

661
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: name Charles Moulton. Yeah, that was his middle name was Molten,

662
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: and Maxwell Gains middle name was Charles. So it is

663
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: that simple, Charles Moulton and the Like we said, there

664
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: is a whole history of Wonder Woman here that is

665
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: fascinating and brilliant, and we could probably spend another two

666
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: hours talking on it on ourselves. But specifically, what we

667
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: want to look at is their relationship and how it

668
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: fed into Wonder Woman, and then how that sort of

669
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: fed back into them. And you can kind of see that,

670
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: like we said, this loving, nonconforming sort of female empowered

671
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: ideology became the foundation for this comic. Elizabeth and Olive

672
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: together were the ideological inspiration for Wonder Woman. And then

673
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: physically she was tall, thin, black haired, blue eyed, and

674
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: wore large metal bracelets. Maybe sound familiar. That sounds a

675
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: lot like all of thinking we figured it out? Did it? Uh?

676
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,479
Speaker 1: And then the lasso of truth. We all know Wonder

677
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: Woman's last so of truth. She ropes you with that,

678
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 1: and you are compelled to speak the truth of whatever

679
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: she asks you. And of course that came straight from

680
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: the lie detection work that he and Elizabeth were doing.

681
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: And wonder Woman is what Diana Prince is, a liberated

682
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,959
Speaker 1: woman in Boston with a strong mind for business who's

683
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: fought for equality through love. I mean it. You couldn't

684
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: create a more perfect mash up of his relationship with

685
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and Olive right, and like all their best qualities

686
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: together in this one character. In an interview, Marston said,

687
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: not even girls want to be girls so long as

688
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: our feminine archetype lacks force, strength and power. Not wanting

689
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive,

690
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: peace loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have

691
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is

692
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: to create a feminine character with all the strength of

693
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.

694
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman is psychological propaganda for the new type of

695
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: woman who I believe should rule the world. So a

696
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: real mixed bag there, Okay, so you think good women

697
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: are tender, submissive and peace loving, but also should have

698
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: all the strength of superman. Um. I don't know, it's

699
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: just it's a lot to ask. Yeah, he brought bondage

700
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,479
Speaker 1: very heavily into the comic. Lapore writes in her book,

701
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: in episode after episode, Wonder Woman is chained, bound, gagged, lassoed, tied, fettered,

702
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: and manacled. She cites a panel in this comic where

703
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: I think some villain has gotten Wonder Woman get you know,

704
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: women chained and tied, get away if you get great

705
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: girdle of aphrodite. Am I tired of being tired of

706
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: direct quote? I need to start saying great girdle of aphrodite.

707
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: They say that Wonder Woman all of her curses were

708
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: women gods too, so she would say things like oh

709
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: yeahrodity or suffering Sappho. Suffering Sappho. That's when you should

710
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: start incorporating. And so I'm definitely I would be like

711
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: suffering Sappho. This traffic. So Labor describes the insane detail

712
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: that Marston went into when he was telling his artists

713
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: how Wonder Woman was going to be tied up in

714
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: certain panels. It's literally just like this chain needs to

715
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: be three inches thick and wrapped around her left wrist

716
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: and then under her right wrist, and then over the

717
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: top and between him, with her arms tied close to

718
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: her breast, and you know this side of the chain

719
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: hanging down on her right and this thank the change,

720
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: just insane detail. At the end of this detailed description,

721
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: he writes, this whole panel will lose its point and

722
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: spoil the story unless these chains are drawn exactly as

723
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: described here emphasis mind, but it just sounds very petulant. Yeah,

724
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: does this at all call up to mind like a

725
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: film director who's like, no, the nudity is really important

726
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: to the story. I promise it does have that energy

727
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: to it. And it was not without criticism at the time.

728
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: Marston replied that, look, no one's actually whipped or tortured,

729
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 1: and says, quote, my whole strip is aimed at drawing

730
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: the distinction in the minds of children and adults between

731
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: love bonds and male bonds of cruelty and destruction, between

732
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: submitting to a loving superior or deity and submitting to

733
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 1: people like the Nazis, which The New York Times described

734
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: as psychological mush. So I mean, I don't know, I

735
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: think there's something buried in there, and well, I think

736
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: there's something there about just trying to describe the difference

737
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: between submission that is in a place of trust and

738
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: coming from a place of just trusting your capture and

739
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: knowing that you're safe. And I mean that makes a

740
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: huge difference to like somebody put you in a cage

741
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: to harm you specifically, or to to dominate you, you know,

742
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: like to colonize you, to crush you or whatever, which

743
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: is what he's kind of talking about male bonds of

744
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: cruelty and destruction. I think so maybe there's something there too,

745
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: where he's just trying to distinguish, like there's not all

746
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: submission is cruel and not all domination is cruel. It

747
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: really depends on who's doing it and what their relationship is,

748
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: Like all of that nuance really makes a difference instead

749
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 1: of this like blanket. I mean, I'm I'm putting words

750
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: in his mouth, I guess, but I'm I'm I'm speculating, Yeah,

751
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: And it does seem like that's again, like we talked

752
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: about his sort of blinders and his sort of blanket statements,

753
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: like is he just applying this to well, you know,

754
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: we do it in the bedroom. Therefore women must like

755
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: it all over, you know, whenever you're tied up, it's

756
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: it can be good, or assuming that every woman would

757
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: enjoy that in the bedroom, you know, which is not true.

758
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: But but but he does say in that quote that

759
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: he's trying to straw the distinction for people between those two,

760
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: like you said, like between a trusting situation or nazis.

761
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Marston had written on the value of taking

762
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: pleasure in submission, like for example, the golden lasso. He

763
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: saw as a tool of liberation. If you're submitting to

764
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: the truth, that meant freedom, he said, quote, only when

765
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: the control of self by others is more pleasant than

766
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: the unbound assertion of self in human relationships, can we

767
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: hope for a stable, peaceful human society. Giving to others

768
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: being controlled by them. Submitting to other people cannot possibly

769
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: be enjoyable without a strong erotic element. So I don't

770
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: know if he's saying this is only fun in the bedroom,

771
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: or if you make it sexy, it's okay. If you

772
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: make it sexy, you could do anything you want. And

773
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: that's somebody broke in your house and tied you up.

774
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: But why don't you make it sexy and then they're

775
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,959
Speaker 1: not really controlling you. I don't know that that's that's

776
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: a strategy, I think, But anyway, it does bring up

777
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: the question is this something they did at home? Like

778
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: did they enjoy like a bondage relationship at home? Sexy

779
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: stuff at home? But in a rare peak into the

780
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: Marston's personal life from one of their children, it was

781
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,720
Speaker 1: William and olives Son Burne Holloway Marston said to Lapour

782
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: in an interview that his father only meant this metaphorically,

783
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: and he said, I never saw anything like that in

784
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: our house. He didn't tie the ladies up to the

785
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: bed post. He'd never have gotten away with it. Which

786
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: it takes a lot there too because of like but

787
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: hang on, let me go into speculation station. First of all,

788
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: what child knows what their parents got up to in

789
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: the bedroom, Like could say definitively they didn't get into that.

790
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: How much graphic detail are you getting from your mom

791
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: and dad about how they like to do it. I

792
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: would think you'd even if you did learn that, your

793
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: brain would just block it out forever. And second of all,

794
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: I think you know that's kind of an uneducated stance

795
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: on b DSM, because it's sounds like he's saying Olive

796
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth were so tough and independent and strong they

797
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: never would have let him tie them up in the bedroom.

798
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: But I think, as we know now, if you know

799
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: anything about BBSM, that a lot of strong, powerful people

800
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: men and women then like to be tied up in

801
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: the bedroom. Not all of them, but you kind of

802
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: see patterns in that of like people who are very

803
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: sturdy and independent in their day to day life like

804
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: to kind of let it all go and submit. So

805
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how much we can take his word

806
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: for it, but we can only take his word for

807
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: it because we don't know what's going on in that

808
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: bedroom either. We don't have any other words. And then,

809
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: in fact, on that same note, Marston actually wrote in

810
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: a letter to Maxwell Gains, the secret of women's allure Everybody,

811
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,959
Speaker 1: get ready, Here here comes the secret of women's lure.

812
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: Here we go from Marston's lips to your ears. The

813
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: secret of women's allure is that women enjoy submission and

814
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: being bound. Only women enjoy that all women, only women, women,

815
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: definitive statement period. I know women. I'm around several. I've

816
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: had sex with three of them. And they all liked it.

817
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are women, so I think

818
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: I know them all by now. But that also does

819
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: kind of imply that. I mean, if he thought that,

820
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: then they probably did like it, right, I mean, that's

821
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: his lived experience is whatever Elizabeth and Olive would have

822
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: been into. True, although they did have that sex cult

823
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: with the love girls right right, right, maybe some of

824
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: them liked it, right. So So in any case, his

825
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: his sexual experience is probably heavily based around tying up

826
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: submitting things like that. Otherwise I can't imagine he would

827
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: and he liked it. He said it was this was

828
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: luring of you, that you liked me to tie you up,

829
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't think he would say that without

830
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: the experience behind it. If if Elizabeth and Olive were like, no,

831
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: you can't fucking tie us up, then he probably wouldn't

832
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: say the secret of women's lures that they enjoy it.

833
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: I think I think he at least would be like, well,

834
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: they don't like it, you know, women don't like being

835
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: tied up. I've tried. That's a good point, I believe me.

836
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: I've tried. I feel like that just kind of gives

837
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: screedence the idea that they probably did well. And and

838
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: like we mentioned earlier, there is some stark racism in

839
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: the early Wonder Woman comics. Look up Wonder Woman issue

840
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: number nineteen if you want to hear about it for

841
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: some reason you want to read that it's bad. Just

842
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: trust us on this. Not a collector's item. Uh, it's

843
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: not brought up in much of the discourse about him. Yeah,

844
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: specifically Marston, it doesn't really come up that much. They

845
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: kind of focus more on his feminism and don't really

846
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: get into his racism because I don't I think it

847
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: wasn't very overt and out there right. But Noah Burladski

848
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: did right on medium in an essay called the Enduring

849
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: Racism of Wonder Woman that for Marston there's an uncomfortable

850
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: sense in where Wonder Woman's whiteness was central to, rather

851
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: than incidental to, her feminism. The powerful transformative femininity of

852
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: love Leaders was tied to the moral power of white women.

853
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: In particular, for Marston, a black Amazon would not be possible.

854
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: So not an intersectional feminist by any means, which, by

855
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: the way, is the only right way to do it

856
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: in my opinion opinion. Nothing that's objective I think that's true. Yeah,

857
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: I think you could say objectively, if you're not talking

858
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: about all women, trans women, sis women, white women, women

859
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: of color, then you're not doing it right. Um so

860
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: William Marston not doing everything. That's that's our podcast on

861
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: his camp. But coming back to the romance, you had

862
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: Olive raising all four children at home. Interesting. I thought

863
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: I liked that. Um, Elizabeth and Olive each named one

864
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: of their kids after the other, so to get their

865
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: own names into the mix. Holloway and like their own

866
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: actual surnames. Olive was going by the name Olive Richard

867
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: at home. She had dropped burn as her surname in public,

868
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: I guess, and so she named her son Burne Holloway Marston,

869
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth named her daughter Olive and Marston. So. But

870
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: Olive did hide from even her own children that William

871
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: was their father. She told them their father was a

872
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: man named William Richard who died shortly after they were born.

873
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: They didn't learn their father's true identity until nineteen sixty three.

874
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: Do you think that they wondered though, you know, speculation

875
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: station come on. Surely at some point they thought, boy,

876
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: I grew up in a house, are like looked in

877
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: the mirror and they were like, I don't know, my

878
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: nose is the same. I don't know, we both have

879
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: the same ears or something. Not a situation I've been in,

880
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine that they didn't at least at

881
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: some point be like, yeah, but he's our dad, right, yeah,

882
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: William Richard. Sure, they just happened to have the same

883
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: first name. Nineteen sixty three, They're like thirty years old

884
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: or something, and she sits down and it's like, I

885
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: need to tell you the true identity of your father,

886
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, it's will Williams. Right, Okay, great,

887
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: can we go out for ice cream or something? I

888
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: guess I'm thirty, but I still like that. I don't know,

889
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: it might have blown their minds. I mean, that would

890
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: be a weird thing to learn at any age. I

891
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: guess you think that your father is not who you

892
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 1: thought it was. And Elizabeth, despite the Great Depression, which

893
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys heard, was a tough time,

894
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: was it? Yeah? Great Depression? In our new segment, the

895
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: Great Depression actually hard. But she landed a bomb mass

896
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: job in nineteen thirty three, not the year for bomb

897
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: mass jobs. She was the assistant to the chief executive

898
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: at Metropolitan Life Insurance, and she held that position until

899
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: she was sixty five years old. I mean, she should

900
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: have been the chief executive at Metropolitan Life Insurance, but

901
00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: let us skate right over that. Three. So she, like

902
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: we said, had her first child at the age of

903
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: thirty five and continued to work even after kids were born.

904
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 1: Both of those things totally revolutionary acts at the time.

905
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: Nobody was having kids, like they weren't waiting. Women weren't

906
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: waiting until thirty five to have kids in the thirties,

907
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: and then they weren't continuing to work once they did

908
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: have children. But it kind of goes back into that

909
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: idea that this probably wouldn't have worked without them as

910
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: a throuble. You know, if Olive hadn't been home to

911
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: raise the kids while they were off both working a lot,

912
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, one of them would have had to have

913
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: stepped back, and we can only imagine it might have

914
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: been Elizabeth. I will throw out there that in the

915
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: spirit of our intersectional feminine feminist conversation, that this is

916
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: again mostly white women I think did not work outside

917
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: of the home once they had kids. I've definitely read

918
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: that women of color did not have the option to

919
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: stay home as much, you know, so that's just something

920
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: to say. They're just heads up. Yeah, that's very true,

921
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: very unusual for white people to be doing it like this.

922
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: And want to add into that, it's not like it's

923
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: impossible for you know, a husband and wife to both

924
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: work full time and not raised four kids, but it

925
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: seems like that challenge in ninety three, and that's sort

926
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: of like social standard would have made that really difficult

927
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: to do, right. I mean, even now you have women

928
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 1: working where everyone's like, don't you miss your kids? Where

929
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: your kids right now? Or whatever, and it's like, I

930
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: don't know, I left him in the street somewhere, don't

931
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: worry about it. Like, but yeah, at the time, it

932
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: would have been even more difficult, I'm sure than now

933
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: to have that conversation where people are like literally or

934
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: morally obligated, you know, like your moral standing, you're like

935
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: a bad person right right now. William retained complete control

936
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: of Wonder Woman at d C Comics from its beginning

937
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: in ninety one until his death in ninety seven. He

938
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: died fairly suddenly of skin cancer. They had an income

939
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: still coming in from Wonder Woman. Although Wonder Woman did

940
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: begin to decline after his death, some reviews in the

941
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: fifties said, you know, this comic doesn't have anything to

942
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: say anymore now that its original creator and artist has died.

943
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: So Elizabeth's career kept them afloat. Elizabeth and Olive continued

944
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: to live together for the rest of their lives. We

945
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: don't know much about what that life was like. Psychology

946
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: Today writes that we really don't know the intimate nature

947
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth and olives relationship. Pretty tasteless. I guess to

948
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: ask two women if they were having sex, I don't know.

949
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 1: But in two thousand and four, Less Daniels in Wonder

950
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: Woman The Complete History popularized the idea that their relationship

951
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: was truly a throuble. But it's unclear where that idea

952
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: comes from. That author of the Psychology Today article had

953
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 1: interviewed the kids a few times in the past, and

954
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: he actually questioned the director of the movie there's a

955
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: movie called Professor Marston and the Wonder Women that definitely

956
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: depicts their relationship as sexual. Elizabeth and Olives, and he

957
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: asked at a panel about that. He said, well, you know,

958
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: you kind of say this movie is based on a

959
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: true story, and you say that these two women were

960
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: having sex, but how do you know that? And the

961
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: director kind of dodged it a little bit and said,

962
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: you know, well this is there there really nobody really knows.

963
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 1: So this is sort of you know, any any biographical story.

964
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: You're interpreting some things, and this is how I chose

965
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: to interpret it. And that director is a woman as well,

966
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: for what it's worth, And he says that after that question,

967
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: immediately after that question, a moderator started hearing the questions

968
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: before anyone was allowed to ask them. Oh really, yeah, yeah,

969
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: so it was something they they thought was a little

970
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: sensitive to, like no hardballs at the conventions, right yeah.

971
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: Later in life, William and Elizabeth's son Pete said that

972
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: the adults had their part of the house, the kids

973
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 1: had their part, and they didn't know what happened over there,

974
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: which they had their side of the I'm picturing like

975
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: the crayon thing where they just went through the whole house,

976
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: put a big line, you clean that part, I'll clean

977
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: this m don't cross this line after six pm, kids,

978
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,439
Speaker 1: And then and he would say, who cares? Why would

979
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: you ask me that? Which is a good I mean,

980
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: why would you ask the children how again, why would

981
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: you ask to a grown adult and say or I mean,

982
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: we're a young kid. But you go to anyone and

983
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: you say, hey, what was the sexual relationship of your

984
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: two mothers? Like, oh my god, dude, fuck off. I

985
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: don't know and I don't care. Why do you Anyway,

986
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's career put all four of their children through college.

987
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: Imagine four children on a single income. What a time,

988
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: while she was supporting Olive too, so like five five

989
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: people plus herself. Olive died in at the age of

990
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: eighty six. Um. They had been living together in an

991
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: apartment in Tampa, and at this point they lived together

992
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: for sixty four years. And Labore writes that while Olive

993
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: was in the hospital, Elizabeth fell and broke her hip

994
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 1: and was admitted to the same hospital in a separate room,

995
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: And when in her hospital bed, she was told that

996
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: Olive had died, and Elizabeth hang a poem by Tennyson,

997
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: Sunset and the Evening Star and one clear call for me,

998
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: and may there be no moaning of the bar when

999
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: I put out to see it. And it really makes

1000
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: me think that they that they did have a romantic

1001
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: relationship together. Elizabeth was somewhere around fifty when William died,

1002
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: and Olive was, you know, somewhere around forty, and either

1003
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: one of them certainly could have ventured out of their own.

1004
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: They obviously had an established family unit, so that may

1005
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: have been enough for them, you know, at that point

1006
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: to just say, let's just stick it out together. Whether

1007
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: or not they had a romantic relationship, but it feels

1008
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: like they did to me. I don't know, I think

1009
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: we have a better understanding even if it wasn't romantic,

1010
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Their friendship was clearly really

1011
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,280
Speaker 1: important to them, and they liked the way their life

1012
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: was organized, and maybe they just couldn't find a do

1013
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: that was as open minded as William about how they

1014
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: wanted to lead their lives, you know, and at at

1015
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: some point, you have your ship set up, you know

1016
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:05,479
Speaker 1: what I mean. I mean, I think that's why people

1017
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: find it difficult to date, like after they've been divorced

1018
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: or something later on in or widowed or something later

1019
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 1: on in life, is that they're like, I'm just so

1020
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: in my habits. I'm very used to a person who

1021
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: already knows my habits and what I like and don't like,

1022
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: and it's really hard to incorporate a new person into that.

1023
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: But I kind of agree, like, just this poem and

1024
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 1: stuff is really beautiful, and I don't know it speaks

1025
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: to to a real heartrending I guess. I think they

1026
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: lived a long time together, being probably the only two

1027
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,439
Speaker 1: people who fully understood each other, who really appreciated each

1028
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: other's experience and had similar opinions about things at a

1029
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: at a time. I mean, they lived from the late

1030
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds until nineties, so they saw

1031
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: it all and at their formative years they were ahead

1032
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: of the game, and then they got to see the

1033
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: world sort of catch up to them, probably reevaluate their

1034
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: own beliefs and experiences. And who else could they turn

1035
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: to in that time? Who else could understand what they

1036
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 1: had been through in terms of this sense of liberation

1037
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: and the sense of non conventional relationship. You know, who

1038
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: else would have understood that? Right? And then even if

1039
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: you know you've lived however long, however many decades in

1040
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: this type of relationship, how hard to share that information

1041
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: with somebody who may or may not agree with you.

1042
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's like a secret that you might have

1043
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: from a new partner or something where you're like, I,

1044
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: I would love to tell you about all the things

1045
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: I've done and seen, but you might send sure me

1046
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: for that and kind of be like, Oh, you're a weird,

1047
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: promiscuous lady who had a sex cult in their house

1048
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: and has this other woman raising your children and works

1049
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: all the time and just stuff like that. It might

1050
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: be hard, again, just hard to incorporate another person into

1051
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: that throatle is a throuble. It's not just three random people.

1052
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's like a couple. It's got a own life,

1053
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: its own units, has its own life. So to me,

1054
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: I I just think that the at the end of

1055
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: the story, the central romance here is kind of there's

1056
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: I mean, whether it was sexual or not, you know,

1057
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: I think that they're their connection and their feelings together,

1058
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: and they're the way they sort of built each other up.

1059
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: You know. Not only was the foundation for Wonder Woman

1060
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: and clearly had a heavy influence on the feminist movement

1061
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: at a very crucial time, um, but just on a

1062
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: personal level, yeah, I became like a really important, really

1063
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: significant thing. And it's nice too that we're talking about

1064
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: two feminists, one who did not want to stay home

1065
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: with kids, and one who did. They're both equally feminists,

1066
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: and that their work and their life and what they

1067
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: wanted out of life is just as feminist as the

1068
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: other ones, do you know what I mean? And I

1069
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: like that there's at least in our research, no evidence

1070
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: that one was put above the other or as more

1071
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: powerful as the other, or more feminine as the other,

1072
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It was just like, look

1073
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: at these two women and everything they're capable of doing.

1074
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: And then three years later in Elizabeth Holloway Marston died

1075
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: one month after her one hundredth birthday. She's a wonder woman,

1076
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: total boss. I mean, she is like girl crushed for

1077
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: me now history historic girl crush. Yeah. And then there's

1078
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: William just like I said, just a bag of huh,

1079
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: like just all over the place. Again. You pull out

1080
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: one sentence from his life and you're like, Wow, what

1081
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: a cool guy. And then you look at the next

1082
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: sentence and you're like, what the fuck is wrong with

1083
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: this guy? He is a He is a mess. To

1084
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: some degree. You want to say, hey, hey, he's he

1085
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: was trying a lot harder than than most other men

1086
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: in his era for that. Good for you. You might

1087
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: have laid the foundation for men's involvement in the feminist movement.

1088
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: You know, he might have been into griled to that

1089
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: the early days of that. But and it's really questionable

1090
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: a lot of his behaviors, especially if he was a racist.

1091
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: Then suck it. Yeah, right, we had a hard time

1092
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: with that. But there's a lot of discourse on wonder

1093
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: Woman and feminism and William Marston that really kind of

1094
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: goes back to that feminism is an ever changing set

1095
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: of idiological values. It's constantly growing for the better. And

1096
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: it's really hard to look at the context of feminism

1097
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: back in the day through today's eyes because we know

1098
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: so much more than they did because of what they did. Right,

1099
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: it's a good time to note that a progressive movement progresses,

1100
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it changes over time, and so as I

1101
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: don't like to say, well, they are a product of

1102
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: their time, because it excuses a lot of behavior that

1103
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: even in their time, a lot of people were already

1104
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: saying no, you know, if you're talking about slavery or

1105
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: something like people in the time we're also like, this

1106
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: is sucked up. But you do have to make some

1107
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: concessions for predominant thinking and like the the internal misogyny

1108
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: that some women feel, where you know, they'll be like, oh,

1109
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: I'm I'm feminist, so I can't be home with the kids,

1110
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: even if that's what I really want. I need to

1111
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: show that that's not what I'm a strong, powerful woman,

1112
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:18,919
Speaker 1: and so I'm going out, you know what I mean.

1113
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 1: So anyway, and of course he would also have his

1114
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: own just frames, just a framework, you know, just a

1115
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: lens through which he's seeing things, and he's seeing it

1116
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: through a culture that is pretty different from now from today.

1117
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: Even though it was America, you know, it was still

1118
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: a very a different time. So it was like as

1119
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: open minded as he might have could have been at

1120
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: that time, do you know what I'm saning? You got

1121
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: to imagine that everyone probably in his life, everything he

1122
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: was ever taught was pretty antithetical to what he was

1123
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 1: saying in terms of women's liberation and things like that.

1124
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: He was already pushing back against something. So there's I

1125
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: guess I feel like there's some credit there, but it's

1126
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's complicated, nobody's all good or bad, and

1127
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: maybe this guy was more bad than good. But we

1128
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: got wonder Woman, Yeah, we did get wonder Woman. And

1129
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 1: thank the Lord for that. She's a dope hero. What

1130
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: a throuble, What a throuble. Indeed, if you want to

1131
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: be a throuble, hey, send us an email. It's romance

1132
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:20,919
Speaker 1: at our Heart Media dot com. Yeah, and we're also

1133
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: on the socials. It's at ridic Romance and I'm at

1134
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: dianamite boom, I'm at Oh great, it's Eli And thanks

1135
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: so much for listening to this story about Wonder Woman

1136
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 1: and the people who created her. Yeah, let us know

1137
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: what you think, and go read about Wonder Woman's history

1138
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: because that is a whole other subject. And it's just

1139
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: go read wonder Woman. Great runs of her stories. There

1140
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: are all right, we're going back to the mascara by

1141
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: can wait so long? Friends, It's time to go. Thanks

1142
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: so listening to our show. Tell your friend's names, uncle's

1143
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: and this to listen to a show ridiculous Little n