1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Who do you think killed Joe Ane Tate? I had 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: no idea. It could have been Tommy Lindsild. It could 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: have been the guy who's baby shutting food Joanne, Steve Yanstree. 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: It could have been show out together different Rodney Lincoln 5 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: doesn't know who murdered Joanne and hurt her daughters. All 6 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: he knows is the state of Missouri still treating him 7 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: as if he's the one who did it. They had 8 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: to conviction. They don't want to go. I'm Leah Rothman. 9 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: This is the real Killer Episode eight thirty six years 10 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: and ten days. What happened when I recanted was the 11 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: most baffling set of circumstances. Uh. I definitely did not 12 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: expect the pushback and a negative reaction that I got 13 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: from people in the system. I really thought that they 14 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: would be just as gung hole as I was and 15 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: get the paperwork rolling and get everything moving. You're not 16 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: supposed to have innocent people in prison, right, Melissa Daboors 17 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: recantation does not result in Rodney's release that year or 18 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: even the next. For Melissa, that reality is unbearable. The 19 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: depression that came after I came forward because the dust 20 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: settled It was by far, probably the second worst in 21 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: my life. Twice I studied the train the train tracks, 22 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: waiting for the train, and I was ready to jump. 23 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: A couple of times I swallowed too much medication and 24 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: I wake up throwing up and angry that I was 25 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: still there. I had been hurting and fighting and treading 26 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: water my whole life. I was exhausted. I didn't want 27 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,839 Speaker 1: to be in the world anymore, because not only did 28 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: was he either because of me. He was gonna die 29 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: in there because of me. Melissa is struggling, and so 30 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: are Rodney and his family after they suffer a devastating loss. 31 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: Jesse Jesse was her name. Here's Rodney's daughter ka. On 32 00:02:53,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: June twel my dad's granddaughter, My daughter was murdered. Jesse 33 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: had just gotten off work and she took her boyfriend 34 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: somewhere where he shouldn't have been going. And as he 35 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: was waiting to meet with the person, somebody walked up 36 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: to the car and pulled a gun. She tried to 37 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: drive away. They fired two shots into the car. One 38 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: hit her and the arm went straight through her arm 39 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: into her heart. She drove two blocks, got her baby 40 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: and her boyfriend away from the scene and then she 41 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: collapsed and he called and they were able to transport 42 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: her to the hospital, but she died during surgery. Three 43 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: years old, left a two year old baby. So in 44 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: the middle of everything that's going on with your dad, 45 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: you lose your daughter and now you have you take 46 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: her child corner. He's so much like her, he has 47 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: her heart. Did they ever catch her killer? They actually 48 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: did catch the man that killed my daughter, and he 49 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: actually killed another young man three days before my daughter, 50 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: and three days before that committed an armed robbery. They 51 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: did catch him. My daughter's boyfriend identified him. He was indicted, 52 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 1: He went to trial, and at trial, the only eyewitness 53 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: for my daughter was her boyfriend who has a substance 54 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: abuse problem. And the defense attorney did a hell of 55 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: a lot better job than my dad's defense attorney did, 56 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: and the defense attorney just destroyed him. Prosecuting attorney didn't 57 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: really do anything to rebut that, and he was acquitted. 58 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: And that was just so so hard to hear. You know, 59 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: you fight the justice system all these years to get 60 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: somebody who's been wrongfully convicted free, and then you're you're 61 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: sitting on the other side of the aisle and you're 62 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: wanting them to do what you know they need to do, 63 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: and they let you down again. Yeah, I mean, it's 64 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: it's really hard to reconcile these two truths. How one 65 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: system can fail in so many ways. I feel so 66 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: many people in so many ways. Months later, a glimmer 67 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: of hope in Kimberly Gardner becomes the new St. Louis 68 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney. She's the first black woman elected to the office. 69 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: She ran on a justice reform platform, and one of 70 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: her first orders of business was to review potentially questionable 71 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: convictions from the past. Tell me about your conviction integrity 72 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: units and why you felt it was necessary to start 73 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: one when I took office. When we talk about the 74 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: integrity of the criminal justice system, UM, the ability for 75 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: prosecutors to correct wealth of convictions is key because things 76 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: can happen um so um day. One One of the 77 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: big pieces that I wanted to implement inside the office 78 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: is having a sent alone conviction integrity unit that is 79 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: separated from the day to day of the office, reports 80 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: directly to myself and we review these tough cases that 81 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: we all know. Good people can make bad mistakes, or 82 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: there may be some issues that prosecutors need to kind 83 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: of reconsider and we look at and if we look 84 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: at that case today, how will we try that case? 85 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: And maybe maybe there was mistakes of how the investigation 86 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: took place, the interrogation tactics of police, or was there 87 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: things that a prosecutor should have turned over to the 88 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: other side that would have had a different outcome. And 89 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: I think it's critical not only to that person who 90 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: there may be wrongfully convicted or we find, um something 91 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,119 Speaker 1: that we need to correct, But at the same time, 92 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: it's a training tool for our prosecutors of what not 93 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: to do and what we need to work on better. So, um, 94 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: Rodney Lincoln's case, when you first learned of his case, 95 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: what did you think? Well, I mean, like everybody else, 96 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: I heard of it, you know, in the news. But um, 97 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, I never had the luxury of really delving 98 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: into the case until it was time for me to 99 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: kind of look at this case and kind of say, hey, 100 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: there may be some issues. And then we had a 101 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: victim say that this individual did not commit this crime. 102 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: Once I had did our due diligence, Rodney Lincoln's case 103 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: was going to be the first UH Conviction Integrity Unit 104 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: case that our office had Originally, while Kim Gardner's conviction 105 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: and a gritty Unit begins looking at Rodney's case, his attorneys, 106 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: Tricia Rojo Bushnell and Shaun O'Brien file a one hundred 107 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: and twenty page writ of habeas corpus to the Missouri 108 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals Western District. It's the next step after 109 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Judge Green's sixteen denial in Cole County. Here's Tricia. So 110 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: we went to the Court of Appeals and we said, hey, 111 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: this was a bad decision down below, no evidence left 112 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: a convictim. And the Court of Appeals said, um that 113 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: it did not have the power two overturn a conviction 114 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: based on innocence unless the defendant was sentenced to death, 115 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: and Rodney Lincoln had not been sentenced to death. Forgive me, 116 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: but two life sentences equals death, right, Well that's you know, 117 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: Sean likes to say it's death on the installment plan, right, 118 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: So it's it is death, it's death in prison, but 119 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: it is it is death at the hands of the 120 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: state by time, right, but not I one overt act 121 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: and so but that's not what the court found. So 122 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: we asked the Supreme Court for review. We wanted them 123 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: to weigh in um, and they declined to review it. 124 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: And so that, um was was the end of that appeal. 125 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: I mean, the things that are very clear in my 126 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: mind was getting that opinion. And I was at some 127 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, some meeting with a bunch of people in it, 128 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: and I just walked outside and sat on the curve 129 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: and just cried and cried and cried. And I just 130 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: remember thinking, Um, if we can't bring Rodney home, what 131 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: are we even doing? Should I even be a lawyer anymore? Sorry? 132 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: I didn't expect that. Oh, and I can, I mean, 133 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: I can imagine, like you're fighting so hard, and it 134 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: seems so obvious. It seems like they're fighting to keep 135 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: him in. They absolutely are, and he's not the only one. 136 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: They do it over and over and over. For the 137 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: last thirty years, the Attorney General Missouri has fought every 138 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: single innocence case. Why there's a great question, A great question, um. 139 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: And so it can feel, um, you know, like a 140 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: Sisyphus moment. Right, we keep rolling the rock up, um. 141 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: And it shouldn't be this hard. It may be someone 142 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: in Kim Gardner's office who's making things even harder. It's 143 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: a name you've heard many times before former Assistant Circuit 144 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: Attorney and Chief Warrant Officer Ed Pistaco. Here's Shawn O'Brien. 145 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: There was a hearing in front of the Missouri Board 146 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: of Probation and Parole because Rodney was eligible for parole 147 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: um and at this point Melissa is on board with 148 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: his release, the Circuit attorney Kim Gardners on board with 149 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: his release, and without any notice to anybody to Kim 150 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: to us, Ed Pistaco goes down to the Missouri Board 151 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: of Probation and Parole and makes a presentation that will 152 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: never know what he said because those files are closed 153 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: by law. We cannot get into those files. Kim can't. 154 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: We can't, but I think I know what he said. 155 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: You know, it did not take the Parole Board very 156 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: long at all to deny relief. And now that would 157 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: have been Rodney's best chance for release, and I'm sure 158 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: Ed Pistaco went down there to torpedo it. I asked 159 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: our gon attorney Kim Gardner about this parole hearing. I 160 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: can confirm that I can confirm that Epistocle represented the 161 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: office with no authority at the time. I had just 162 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: taken office, so that happened. I think into was in 163 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: seventeen and um with no authority to represent the office. 164 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: And at that time I also requested what was said 165 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: in that parole hearing and was not even access. So 166 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: that is disturbing to me that even the Circuit Attorney, 167 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: who the person was representing the sentiments of office that 168 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: they're actually working for the Parole Board, would not give 169 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: me access to at Pistaco's statements and that hearing. It 170 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: defies logic, right, I mean, how can Kim Gardner, the 171 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: elected circuit attorney, be denied access to what ed Pistaco, 172 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: someone who went there representing her office said in that 173 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: parole hearing. We're gonna talk a lot more about Kim Gardner. 174 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: Her reform policies are being met with intense and unprecedented opposition, 175 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: which many say, at its core is racist. By the way, 176 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: I still haven't heard from at Pistaco. Now it's midam 177 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: and Rodney won't be eligible for parole for three more years. 178 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: But maybe Kim Gardner can help in another way. Here's 179 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: Tricia again. We go and meet with her to talk 180 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: about some ideas of some filings that we think she 181 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: could do, and essentially there is a rule um that says, 182 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: if a verdict was had based on false evidence in 183 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: civil proceedings, you can reopen that verdict. And we were 184 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: going to file something because in the DNA proceeding um 185 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: at Pistacco had said that Melissa's identification had never wavered, 186 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: and that was not true. There were all these Department 187 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: Family Services records that showed that she had wavered a lot. 188 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: She was afraid of all men. She had identified other 189 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: people as the bad man, and they never disclosed that, 190 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: and so we should reopen it. And so we were 191 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: gonna start this process. And at that time one of 192 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: the requirements that the city thought they needed was to 193 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: get a waiver of any compensation rights, any civil claims 194 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: that Rodney would raise against the city. Did it sort 195 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: of seem like if you sign this, coming home could 196 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: be more imminent, but like a quid pro quo kind 197 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: of thing. The belief was if he signed it, then 198 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: we would, yes, we would start a different process and 199 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: we would have another avenue that we did not think 200 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: would be available to us otherwise. Now, whether or not 201 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: that would be successful, we didn't know. You know, the 202 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: vast majority people who are exonerated don't collect any money. 203 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: Missouri statute only provides for people who are exonerated by 204 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: DNA evidence. So if you're exonerated but your exoneration did 205 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: not come from the DNA testing, two bad. So sad 206 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: you don't get any money from Missouri. So as part 207 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: of the discussion about doing something, the city wanted Rodney 208 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: to sign a waiver of any potential civil claim he 209 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: could ever have. How did you feel about that? I 210 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: also knew how hard it was going to be to 211 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: get him home. We had already lost every way you 212 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: could lose, and so we had to talk about that 213 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: is it worth it to keep a potential claim that 214 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: is largely unsuccessful or to potentially go home? But it 215 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: was awful. It was an awful conversation. Mm hm. I 216 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: would really love to know how Rodney describes it and 217 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: changing from me, which I told her, I can't try it. 218 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: I totally you know, we gotta fight it, you gotta 219 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: win it to make him out and think we can 220 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: win that first time drink to average at anything like that. 221 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: But for Rodney's daughter, k the decision is an easy one. 222 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: My dad sign it. Who cares if you can sue? 223 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: Who cares if you ever get a dime, just come 224 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: home sign it. And they said that it would happen 225 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: pretty quickly once he signed it, so he signed it. 226 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: April we're still waiting. May We're still waiting. He signed 227 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: the waiver. Why is this not happening? You can set 228 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: your clock by an inmates schedule and June one would 229 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: be no different until that is Rodney. Here's his name 230 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: called over the loudspeaker. That's never goodne I go up 231 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: to the un a guy, Yeah, you call me? Yeah, 232 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: drugged it once? A joc to you. Yeah, I think 233 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: you have drudged what you want. Go back to your room, 234 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: pit on your grave and bring your I d Gord. 235 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: Assuming he's about to get written up for some violation, 236 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: Rodney does what he's told. When he returns, he learns 237 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: exactly what is happening. Since you got call coming from 238 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: the governor. What did I do to him? He should not? Seriously, 239 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: you got call coming from the governor. Rodney is escorted 240 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: to the library, where there are almost two dozen officers, 241 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: sergeants and captains waiting for him. Terrifying, he's told to 242 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: sit again. He complies, Draw about that dime and draw 243 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: Another man in h Jetse. I known Jesse for years. 244 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: It's start to come. Joey, tell ju you will be 245 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: getting a call from the governor sometime between eleven and 246 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: one thins about what eleven now, eleven o'clock rose around, 247 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: No going twelve o'clock, one o'clock, not a time two o'clock. 248 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: Do nothing? Well, Rodney waits for his call. K is 249 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: about to get one of her own my phone rings 250 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: and it's Tricia. She said, well, I just called the 251 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: prison to talk to your dad because he never called 252 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: this morning. And when I asked them why my client 253 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: hadn't called, they told me he couldn't. I said, well, why, 254 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: what's wrong? You know, I'm freaking out, And she said 255 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: they said, he's sitting in a room waiting on a 256 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: call from the governor. And my mind just went blank. 257 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought put any thought into the fact 258 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: that June first was the governor's last day in office. 259 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: It's Governor Gryden's last day because he's resigning. He's embroiled 260 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: in multiple scandals that involve alleged sexual misconduct and political 261 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: campaign violations. Rather than face impeachment, he's quitting and today's 262 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: his last day and I said, Tricia, what does that mean? 263 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: She said, it can only mean one thing, but I 264 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: don't have any confirmation of it. Sean and I are 265 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: headed to jeff City. Jeff City is Jefferson City Correctional Center. 266 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: The next call k gets is from her sister Kelly, 267 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: and I'm like, are you on your way to come 268 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: get me? She's like, no, Um, I forgot to wait 269 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: till Tricia called and told us what's going on. And now, remember, 270 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: my sister is a very dominant one. She's a very 271 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: controlling one. Usually go by everything she says, and um, 272 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: She's like, I was waiting to hear back from Tricia. 273 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: I said, no, you're not. You're getting in the car 274 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: right now. You're gonna come get me, and we're going 275 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: to jep City. As Kay, Kelly, and Kelly's son drive 276 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: to the prison, Rodney sits there and waits to thirty 277 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: goes by three o'clock. Then the phone rings. It's for Rodney. 278 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: I shallow, boys, it's just Rodney blanking, not that. Yes 279 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: it is, Please hang on the governor of the stadium 280 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: and Zoo won't speak to you, okay, Rodney, yes, said, 281 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: they're just govern your briden. I wanted to call and 282 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: tell you that I'm communing your sentence, good time served, 283 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: and you'll be going home soon. I'm sitting out holding 284 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: the phone. Anything and saves. Thank you, he said, Rodney. 285 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: I want you spend the rest of your time trying 286 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: to be a better person. I want you to spend 287 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: the rest of your time trying to make your community 288 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: a better community. I want you to spend the rest 289 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: of your time trying to make your country a better country. 290 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: And God bless you. Because there, God bless you, and 291 00:21:51,440 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: the phone back. Jesse and I hugged each other. It 292 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: should We'll go out. We've got to the prison. I 293 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: walked into the lobby and the first thing I saw 294 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: was Shan O'Brien, and his smile lit up that entire lobby. 295 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: I've never seen a smile so big in my life, 296 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: and at that moment I knew it was real. I've 297 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: never seen Shawn so happy in my life, and it 298 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: was just it was crazy. I couldn't believe it. I 299 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: was calling everybody. You called me and I called you, Leah. 300 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: It's the governor to me, my friends, and the thanks. 301 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: He is coming home possibly today. I will try to 302 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: call you later. Fight a quick aside. I was at 303 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: crime Watch daily when I got case message. I ran 304 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: through the office playing it for everyone there. People literally cheered, okay, 305 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: so Rodney is going home and asks if he can 306 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: go gather his belongings from his cell and say goodbye 307 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: to some friends. Yeah, don't go back to house. Why 308 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: can't I go back there? Sure, you're being to stop. 309 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: You're not allowed back there. I can't go back. I'm 310 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: not in in met That was a moment of reckoning. 311 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: You're no longer an inmate, Jack was the moment while 312 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: we more confused than any kind in my life. I'm 313 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: not in mate? What am I? I felt like a 314 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: body in limbo. Limbo was in a very nice place 315 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: at this moment. Limbo looked mighty good to me. As 316 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: we walked out, it was chopping in window and she 317 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: oh said, what's your number for eight? Five ships three? 318 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: If you're just okay, that's you. And I walked out. 319 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: Kelly and Cake came running up to me. Hug tried 320 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: weel it was just like pandemonium. It was just amazing. 321 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: Could not even believe that it was happening. His lawyer 322 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: actually took a picture of me. My sister as he 323 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: was walking through, and you see two grown women standing there, 324 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: But what was it actually standing? There was a ten 325 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: year old and thirteen year old little girl who had 326 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: waited a lifetime for that moment. Twain mind Schefty six. 327 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: I walked up to prugeon doors. Sun was shining, the 328 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: guy was blue. No, I never noticed a difference till 329 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: that time. How the sun field inside the prugeon? How 330 00:25:52,600 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: differently field outside outside that pergeon? Pul right barely ten 331 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: steps past the prison threshold. A St. Louis news station 332 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: interviews Rodney. He addresses one person directly, Melissa, any what 333 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: you want? Finally, what you want? I'm out a Texas roadhouse, 334 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: eating a buttery World. I'm breaking up with my boyfriend. 335 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: And my phone rang and it was Lindsay, my attorney, 336 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: and she said, guess what, Rodney gets to go home? 337 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: And I think I squealed and I started crying right 338 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: then and there it was where I had went from 339 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: hating this man and fearing him for so many years. 340 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: It is not like that I love him, but he 341 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: had forgiven me and he was part of me. He 342 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: was part of my family, and it was just the 343 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: oddest reversal and one of the most happy things that 344 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: have happened to me in a long time. As they 345 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: drive off from Jefferson City Correctional Center, the concrete and 346 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: steel cage Rodney's called home for decades, they make their 347 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: way down No More Victims Road. Yes, that really is 348 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: the name of the road. Here's Kelly again. It was 349 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: so funny. I remember my son's did the back seat. 350 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: He's like, okay, is anyone else breaking the puck out? 351 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: But we just look at just like Grandpa's in the car. 352 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: He's in the car with us. Okay, Facebook, I got 353 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: somebody who wants to say hi to everybody. Just talk 354 00:27:54,520 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: I every warm back says something else me all your lives. 355 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: Roddy and his family first stopped to have a celebratory 356 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: dinner with Trisha and Sean. Then they stopped for a 357 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: second dinner. Ever since the first time that he thought 358 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: he may be getting home, you know, everybody asks these guys, 359 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: where do you want your first met when you come home? 360 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: He wanted to go to Steak and chick in Lee, Maine, 361 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: South Saint Louis, which is where he grew up, where 362 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: he hung out as a kid. He wanted us shape, 363 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: just like they made him a nineteen fifty. So we 364 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: went to Steak and chake and we had several family members. 365 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: They're waiting for us. We pulled up from the parking lot. 366 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: We got out and Dad loves to tell the story. 367 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: It's a lood betty girl by yake Al. I'm money 368 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: out of the lot, grabbed me rund the legs and 369 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: I love you, Grandpa. I had no idea of who 370 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: it was, but I loved you when you walked out free. 371 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: How much time had you spent in prison? Dirty ships years? 372 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: In ten dates on his way at the door, Missouri 373 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 1: Governor Eric Grayton's pardons five people and commutes the sentences 374 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: of four, including Rodney. Governor Grayton's commuted your sentence. Well, 375 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: he commuted my sickness to times served. You're still considered 376 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: guilty of the crisp absolutely and the eyes of the stadium, majour, 377 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: I'm guilty. Here's Shawn O'Brien again. I don't know if 378 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: you're aware of this, but the petition for clemency the 379 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: Governor Gryden's granted was written by Lindsay runolds On, behalf 380 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: of Melissa Davor. Did he granted Melissa's petition for clemency 381 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: um and and that was something we thought that no 382 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: governor should ignore. When you have the only surviving victim 383 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: of the crime saying a mistake has been made, Please 384 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: let him go free. Why did he only commute his 385 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: sentence Rodney sentence the time served and not fully pardner 386 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: exonerate him. You know what is Bizarres. The only people 387 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: who got pardoned by Governor Grten's were guilty political cronies. 388 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: So I can't tell you more than that. Here's Kelly again. 389 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: The States stupid. It's just how they could not pardon him, 390 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: exonerate him. He didn't do it, but yet they commuted 391 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: as sentence to some time served. What just means you 392 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: don't have to finish your sentence. You can go home, 393 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: but you're still guilty, so you still have this hanging 394 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: over you. Your seventy four He was seventy four when 395 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: he came home. There's no way anyone's going to give 396 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: you a job at your age, with your background, but 397 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: we're just going to kick you out, so bye, see you. 398 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: No kindness support if he was a man that didn't 399 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,239 Speaker 1: have a family that believed in him and supported him 400 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 1: the way his does, he would be lost in this world. 401 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: Eric Grayden's is now running for the US Senate. I 402 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: reached out to him for comment and we did trade 403 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: some text messages and voicemails. He said he would try 404 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: to make time for a short interview or at the 405 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: very least provide a statement, but as of right now, 406 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: neither have happened. I have to say when I started 407 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: this project, I expected i'd learn more about Rodney, Melissa, 408 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: the investigation and the prosecution of this case, which I did. 409 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: But what I didn't expect was to learn so much 410 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: about the justice or injustice system in Missouri. From where 411 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: I sit, it seems for Rodney the injustice came in 412 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: three waves. The first was when the failed investigation led 413 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: to Melissa's idea of Rodney. He was arrested and eventually convicted. 414 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: The second was after the hair and other DNA came 415 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: back to not match Rodney and Melissa recanted, but the 416 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney's office and the Attorney General's office seemed to 417 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: actively fight to keep Rodney imprisoned. And the third wave 418 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: was when the courts denied his relief for reasons like 419 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: the recantake wasn't to be believed. Rodney wasn't on death row, 420 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: and in the case of the Missouri Supreme Court, they 421 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: just flat out refused to even hear it. We're going 422 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: to talk more about this in a later episode. So 423 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: Rodney went into prison a thirty eight year old man. 424 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: He came out at seventy four. Detective Joe Burgoon was 425 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: there from day one. What did you think that day 426 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: when Rodney was released from prison? Well, it's you know, 427 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: it's just you know, he's sure a lot of years, 428 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: said a lot of time in prison. I hate to 429 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: be the guided you know, I don't know, so, I mean, 430 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: I hate to be the guy that deprived the man 431 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: of his life. You know. So if it if it 432 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: was wrong, yeah, I can tell you though, we didn't 433 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: not try to get from us. Those children are earned 434 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: doing at all. If you win, you win. If you lose, 435 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: you lose as you do your job. It's not no, 436 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: it's not you know, not the real or anybody. You 437 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: get to live it yourself. There's a lot of cases 438 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: that there isn't any evidence. You can't make up evidence. 439 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: I shouldn't you know it was there was, there was 440 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: some things that were there that I understand what we 441 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: doing A little week later around while it was a 442 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: cigarette but nobody nobody knew about cigarette pus waiting eighty three. 443 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: But DNA and all that stuff. You know, they saved that. 444 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: We saved a lot of problems when we What did 445 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: you think when Melissa recanted? Did you believe her? I 446 00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:01,479 Speaker 1: think they got to hers who day and I've asked 447 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: some experience with the innocent projects. You know, whatever whatever 448 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: it takes to win, you win not, you know, to 449 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: the ethical and I respect him that there. You've got 450 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: a job at you, but do it the right one. 451 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: Don't make a thank us look like the bad guys 452 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: who are got to pay. As you know, we're parents 453 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: and every else we're got, We're not. We're not about there. 454 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: That's the kid's life up. Besides or I wouldn't I 455 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: think pickted or own keyboard. No. I interviewed Steve Weinberg. 456 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: He said that you carried a picture. You had a 457 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: picture of Melissa and Renee in your wallet. I did, 458 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: then I took it out. Now I still got 't enough. 459 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: Why did you take it out of your wallet? Wow? 460 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: You kind of turned on everybody. Everybody, everybody that tried 461 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: to help them. You know, uh, everybody tried to do 462 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: divisity good form. And you know she's in her own mind. 463 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: She she thinks that's been that we had the wrong guy. 464 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: Why does she come forward before? There seems to be 465 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: two camps when it comes to Joe Burgoon. One thinks 466 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: that he genuinely wanted to solve the case and brings 467 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: some much needed comfort to Melissa and her family, and 468 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: what was done was neither malicious nor nefarious. The other camp, 469 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: well thinks the polar opposite. Regardless, the outcome was the 470 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: same for Rodney Lincoln, what does time mean to you? Everything? 471 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: People don't realize how prighteous time is right now seventy eight, 472 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: I think it's strange getting kind of shot, So I'd 473 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: better enjoy what I got left. If I want to 474 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: go fish, you and I go fishing. If I just 475 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: want to go for a ride, I'll go for a ride. 476 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: And there's not a person inshull looking tell me no, 477 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: which we goage home? We went to a swimming pool. 478 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: I said, I'm going out to hide. I said, no, 479 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: you're not. You're gonna kill you some if I do 480 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: my faging. So as of today, Rodney's out, though he's 481 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: still considered guilty of the crimes. His attorneys are working 482 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: on a full exhoneration for him. Meanwhile, we still don't 483 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: know for sure who the real killer is. Melissa's uncle 484 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: Natt and aunt Lourie would sure like to know. Over 485 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: all these years, all these years, Nat watched all these 486 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: crime shows that were on TV, every kind of crime 487 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: show that was on any kind of channel. When he 488 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: wasn't home, he had me recording them on VHS. Then 489 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: he had me record the same shows over again on DVD. 490 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: He was looking for some criminal out there on some 491 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: show that had the same mo m O that the 492 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: guy that killed joe Ane had, but they didn't want 493 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: to you know, on the bed sheets. Could there'll be 494 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 1: something left on there or wipe it on her nightgown? 495 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: Do they have her nightgown yet? What happened to that 496 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: or her panties? I'd like to see everything that they 497 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: have from Joanne's house. Yet, every piece of evidence that 498 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: they have, lay it out there. Let's look at it. 499 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: Let's you know, everybody he can get, somebody like the FBI, 500 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: even if it's just local St. Louis or some somebody 501 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: high up that knows crime scenes and knows evidence. We 502 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: want to solve it. We would like for it to 503 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: be I'd be more happy to do anything. I mean, 504 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: I'd stand on my head in in eat banana and anything. 505 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I do anything I could. I like to 506 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: solve this case. I know it's been a long time, 507 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: it's been since one What is the status of Joan 508 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: Tate's case? Is it open? Is it closed? Is it 509 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: a cold case? Well, at this moment, it's still you know, 510 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: there's evidence that there may be an individual that was executed, 511 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: I guess in Texas that could have possibly been a suspect. 512 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: But that's right now, you know, it's will be considered 513 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 1: an open case. Wow, Kim Gardner just said the case 514 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: is considered open, and she's talking about tommulin Cells who 515 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: was executed. As it turns out, Bill Clutter, that private 516 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: investigator who had investigated Tommulan Cell for years was able 517 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,919 Speaker 1: to get a copy of his str DNA profile through 518 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: an open records request, but that profile couldn't be compared 519 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: to the hairs from the crime scene because those were 520 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 1: done with mitochondrial DNA testing and they are two totally 521 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: different forms of testing. With different data, So can Cell's 522 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: mitochondrial DNA be tested? Can his fingerprints be compared to 523 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: those found at the scene, or what about Steve Yancy's 524 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: DNA and fingerprints? Can whatever DNA and prints still exists 525 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: be entered into the national databases in case it's someone 526 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: altogether different, I asked Shan O'Brien. Melissa and Natt both wonder, 527 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: as do I, if there is anything that could still 528 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: be tested, physical evidence that still exists, or fingerprints that 529 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: could still be run against the fancy Tommulin sells prints 530 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,800 Speaker 1: that are obviously in the system. There is a fingerprint 531 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: that's kind of smudgy. I don't know that it's good 532 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: enough to match to somebody um, and we have gone 533 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: through the physical evidence with a fine tooth comb. I 534 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: do know the person in the system who would listen 535 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: is Kim Gardner. I was there when Melissa met Kim, 536 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: and Kim was kind and compassionate and supportive. And I 537 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: think if Melissa went to Kim and said, please look 538 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: at the physical evidence in the case, and you know, 539 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: I test what you can. Having a prosecutor who is 540 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: reformed minded could very well be our best avenue for 541 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: getting access to that evidence. It's incredible to think that 542 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: Melissa and Rodney's story spans forty years and they haven't 543 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: seen each other since he was released from prison. That's 544 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: about to change. I made sure of it in the 545 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: spring of on an incredibly windy day. I mean it's 546 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: like gale force winds. It's very windy. Yes it is. 547 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: Seconds later, Melissa is at Rodney's door. Hi, you're so real, 548 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: Oh so good to see. Whatever happened? You look amazing, 549 00:42:53,120 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: I am amazing. I can't believe it. What do my soul? 550 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: There's the reason I held on in the pandemic. You 551 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 1: know that? Right? You wanted a few? Rodney offers Melissa beer. 552 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: She gladly accepts. I think they I haven't had a 553 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: beer in five years, so let's have a beer. Yeah. 554 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: I can't think of a better person to have a 555 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: beer with. Rod Today is a day of celebration, right, cheers, cheers. 556 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: Too many days and many days and nights, making up 557 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: for lost time and starting our own story, that's right, 558 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: the crew story. They hug for a long time, then 559 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: sit holding hands and you know what, like, this is 560 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: the first time I've been here in years, when I 561 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: haven't been sad or worried or afraid or guilty. You 562 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: set me free. The situation that came up between us 563 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: ships Jean thought both of us. But look where came 564 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,360 Speaker 1: of it. One of the most precious bonds I have 565 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: in my life. I feel that's right. You got to 566 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 1: have a daughter to drive you crazy. Yeah, I have 567 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: a question of where does forgiveness come from? Where? Where? 568 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:08,760 Speaker 1: How did you find that forgiveness? I don't think I 569 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: every really forgave anything because I could never see he 570 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: is being guilty of anything. I felt she was tricked 571 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:32,959 Speaker 1: and nebul Lady used and she didn't do anything wrong. Okay, home, 572 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:42,720 Speaker 1: listen this Higer girl. Kay then joins the reunion. Hi, Mama, 573 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: how are you so good to see you? Very excited 574 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: to be back here. And not only do I have 575 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: I have family here, I have you guys with my 576 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: family too. And I don't feel worthy sometimes, but I 577 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: love you fair much. You are more than worthy. You. 578 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: You put too much on yourself. You take too much 579 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: responsibility on yourself for things that were not your fault. 580 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: You know what I did do is I tried to 581 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: fight with you, and I said horrible things about your 582 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: letters about your dad. Like the things that I did do, 583 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: Like you were defending yourself and your life and everything 584 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: that you're playing for the entire your entire life. But 585 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 1: what I didn't know is that you knew more about 586 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: me than anyone I know. And that's what drives me crazy. 587 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: Everybody I talked to, I said, please tell Melissa to 588 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: call me. Yeah, please tell her to call me. I 589 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: know so much more about what happen back down than 590 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: what she will have a help. But I operated from 591 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: a very um emotionally immature place back then because when 592 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: us place and that used place in that ozation by 593 00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: people who were adults. Yeah, I knew Betty right, they 594 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 1: didn't care because they had a gold that they were 595 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: And I just like the thought of you being in 596 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 1: there being annocent. I couldn't leave you there, and I 597 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: couldn't not say anything. I had no idea, as naiva 598 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 1: as I was that they wouldn't be on board. But 599 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: when you have the knowledge that you were wrong, that 600 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: you may have messed up someone's life, you say something 601 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: no matter what it costs you, because that's the right 602 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 1: thing to do. My grand mother, you know, I called 603 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: detective bringing back in two thousand three, two thousand four, 604 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: and I asked him what evidence did you ever have 605 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: against my dad? And he said, we didn't need any 606 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: we had Melissa, I said, well, do you realize that 607 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: when you told that child that she had to pick 608 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: the bad man, you were forcing her to make an identification. 609 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,319 Speaker 1: She didn't have a choice. I never led a witness ever, 610 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,839 Speaker 1: I said, all you said, I've never had a case 611 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: of mistake and I witness identification. I said, well you 612 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: did in this one. And you know what he said 613 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: to me, well, never before and never after, what that's okay? 614 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: This one it's okay. Then Melissa confesses something to Rodney, 615 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: you know. And then there was something that opened my 616 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: heart towards you. Ever before I truly realized you were innocent. 617 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: It was an Easter message and I found on YouTube. 618 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,359 Speaker 1: That was something made me think about the fact that 619 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: Rodney was a human being and I really needed to 620 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: work on how I felt about him. That was the 621 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 1: first softening right there. You still believed he was guilty 622 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, you were just saying yeah, yeah. And 623 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,120 Speaker 1: then it was really funny. Then I started learning about 624 00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: the innocence prodect. Never before I talked to anybody and 625 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: I saw the statistics for people that were wrongfully convicted, 626 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: people that you know, Diane death Row, and I remember 627 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: thinking how many innocent people are there? And you did 628 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: cross my mind at one time, and my brain is like, stop, 629 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: stop thinking about that, because I knew if I had 630 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 1: to admit one thing you have to go down, that 631 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: I have to start admitting others. And I was already 632 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: I was scared because my whole foundation, my whole personality, 633 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: my whole life was built around being a survivor and 634 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: a victim and being upset and afraid of you. That 635 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: was my whole existence. But once I realized I couldn't 636 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: wrap you up in that anymore, I don't know. Thanks 637 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: to just begin to shift. So thank you for everything 638 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: that's good. Just thank you. Guys were like cold Love's 639 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: f oh girl, thank you for my friend understanding. Thank you. 640 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: I can't live long enough to make you proud. I'm 641 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of a hell razor, is that all right? Yeah? 642 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to the right next time on the Real Killer. 643 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,640 Speaker 1: And one of the letters that you wrote, you said 644 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 1: you never babysat the girls. No, no, no, all there 645 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,360 Speaker 1: in the hell. I finally talk with Steve Yancy. You know, 646 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:06,279 Speaker 1: What's weird is that Melissa said that you did babysit them, Steve, Steve, Steve, 647 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: are you still there? Steve? A quick note Rodney Lincoln's 648 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 1: daughter k has started a Facebook discussion group around this podcast. 649 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,880 Speaker 1: If you want to get into the conversation, search for 650 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,800 Speaker 1: who killed Joe and Tate on Facebook and asked to 651 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: join the group. The Real Killer is a production of 652 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: a y R Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by 653 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:38,760 Speaker 1: me Leah Rothman, Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen 654 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: for a y R Media. Written by me Leah Rothman, 655 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: Senior Associate producer Eric Newman, Editing and sound design by 656 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering 657 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,760 Speaker 1: by Hey sus c Mario Studio engineering by Tom Weir 658 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: and Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for a y R Media 659 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for I Heart Radio Chandler Maze. 660 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,440 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Real Killer, tell your friends about 661 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: it and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or 662 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,239 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.