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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nolan.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the

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Speaker 4: Tennessee pal Fagan.

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Speaker 3: Most importantly, you are you. You are here.

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Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: Friends and neighbors, longtime fellow conspiracy realist of a certain age,

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Speaker 4: you may remember that not too long ago, the United

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Speaker 4: States and later the world was gripped by a paralyzing fear.

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Speaker 4: The Devil is real, people claimed, and not only that

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Speaker 4: his followers are actively doing horrible things to children. This

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Speaker 4: was an outbreak, right, a moral panic that metastasized across

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Speaker 4: the cultural landscape, evolving into something we now call the

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Speaker 4: Satanic panic.

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Speaker 3: But you know what exactly was this? What is this?

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Speaker 4: How did it happen? What does it teach us? To

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Speaker 4: answer these questions more, we are thrilled to welcome none

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Speaker 4: other than Sarah Marshall, the writer, media critic, and creator

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Speaker 4: of the new hit podcast, The Devil you know, Sarah,

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Speaker 4: thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me here. Then, thank

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Speaker 5: you for calling it a hit podcast. I love that.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh it's especially a hit and we have

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Speaker 5: it in quotes.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a fantastic podcast. It's a dark listen. I

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Speaker 2: might say, uh, I've set the kids off to school

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Speaker 2: a couple of times in the past few weeks and

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Speaker 2: put on an episode and oh it's it's heavy because

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Speaker 2: of the subjects matter, right, but you handle it pretty

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Speaker 2: beautifully by talking to people that were truly affected by

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Speaker 2: what Ben just described there.

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Speaker 5: I thank you.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if you would just let us know how

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Speaker 2: the Satanic panic came into your.

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Speaker 5: Life, sir, huh, yeah, I mean it came in via

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Speaker 5: old Texas Monthly articles, because about fifteen years ago, when

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Speaker 5: I was in grad school, I was reading a lot

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Speaker 5: of Texas Monthly because they've always been very generous or

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Speaker 5: at the time at least, they were about putting their

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Speaker 5: archive online and have always had great true crime reporting.

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Speaker 5: And they had some articles about one of the nineteen

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Speaker 5: eighties Satanic panic daycare bease cases involving a couple named

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Speaker 5: Fran and Dan Keller, who had a childcare facilic kind

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Speaker 5: of at home childcare that they as many people do,

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Speaker 5: and did that they ran in the Austin area, and

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Speaker 5: they got kind of swept up in what reading about them.

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Speaker 5: At the time, I was just learning more apparently fairly

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Speaker 5: commonplace allegations in the early to mid eighties where parents

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Speaker 5: would become concerned that something was amiss at their child's daycare,

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Speaker 5: which is a very easy thing to wonder about a

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Speaker 5: place where your child goes all day and can't really

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Speaker 5: tell you what they've been doing even if they wanted to,

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Speaker 5: depending on the age. And it was at the time,

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Speaker 5: you know, police officers, detective social workers, a lot of

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Speaker 5: people kind of in the mainstream of the legal and

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Speaker 5: therapeutic communities were on TV, kind of in the media,

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Speaker 5: in the news saying, well, you know, it's just kind

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Speaker 5: of a known fact that there are a lot of

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Speaker 5: Satanists around that they like to work in daycare centers

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Speaker 5: and they abuse children there because it's apparently important to

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Speaker 5: their rituals. And at the time I just thought, wait, what,

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Speaker 5: this is something that had you know, had happened in

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Speaker 5: a huge way. But I think in about twenty ten,

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Speaker 5: our culture was not far enough removed from to be

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Speaker 5: to have started really reckoning with in a big way.

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Speaker 5: And I was just absolutely shocked because I had a

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Speaker 5: very you know, I grew up watching Law and Order,

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Speaker 5: and as people who grow up watching law order and

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Speaker 5: not having to actually tangle with the legal system often believe,

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Speaker 5: I was like, well, surely we have a basically good

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Speaker 5: legal system and things are basically fair, right, right, And

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Speaker 5: so in this way that I think that my interest

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Speaker 5: in the Satanic Panic kind of set the tone for

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Speaker 5: everything that was going to happen in actual day to

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Speaker 5: day American life for the next fifteen years, because it

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Speaker 5: felt like this astounding part of history that I was discovering,

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Speaker 5: and then as soon as I started learning about at

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Speaker 5: present day events started basically mimicking it as far as

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Speaker 5: I can tell. And so now it feels maybe less

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Speaker 5: shocking than today, and maybe in a way I think

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Speaker 5: even it can offer some comfort, which we try and

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Speaker 5: get to by the end of the show of saying,

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Speaker 5: you know, this is it's shocking how deep into conspiracy

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Speaker 5: theories people can get and how easy it is to

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Speaker 5: have a legal system. Certainly our legal system corrupted by

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Speaker 5: stories that have no actual evidence to support them. But

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Speaker 5: also if it's not an anomaly but something that humans

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Speaker 5: do a fair amount, then maybe that's something that we

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Speaker 5: can study and undermine rather than just being shocked by.

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Speaker 6: For sure, did the documentary Paradise Lost the child murders

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Speaker 6: at robin Hood Hill cross your eyeballs when you were younger?

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Speaker 5: Yes, that was actually after the Texas Monthly articles. That

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Speaker 5: was the second thing I encountered, which, again, you know,

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Speaker 5: this is kind of a fairly late case in terms

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Speaker 5: of the initial spread of the Satanic Panic, because this

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Speaker 5: is in the early nineties and West Memphis, Arkansas. But

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Speaker 5: I think that as happens with a lot of things

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Speaker 5: are kind of widespread phenomena, the Satanic Panic kind of

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Speaker 5: spread initially through mainstream media, and then after it had

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Speaker 5: begun to be taken less seriously in kind of in

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Speaker 5: big cities in the United States and North America, it

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Speaker 5: kind of stayed lodged in more rural areas, I think,

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Speaker 5: and certainly in the Bible Belt. And that was a

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Speaker 5: documentary that I remember watching and things and coming to

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Speaker 5: the closing arguments. I think of Damien Eckles's trial, and

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Speaker 5: I believe the prosecutor saying that there was not a

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Speaker 5: soul in his body. I was like, but surely you

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Speaker 5: can't say that in a trial, right.

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Speaker 6: It seems outside of the realm of legal jargon.

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Speaker 5: Say that at a trial. And they did, and they

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Speaker 5: got a conviction. And I was like, well, God, what

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Speaker 5: else is in law and order telling? We do? Go

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Speaker 5: back and watch lawn Order, And I gotta say, I

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Speaker 5: don't know if McCoy is that good at his job.

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Speaker 5: Actually he says a lot of pretty lammatory.

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Speaker 3: Some of them are.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there may be built more for the stage than

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Speaker 4: the courtroom.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe we need to cancel McCoy. Maybe I need

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Speaker 5: as well.

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Speaker 3: But you heard it here first, folks.

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Speaker 4: One thing that stands out, Sarah, not just in or

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Speaker 4: latest project.

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Speaker 3: But in a lot of your earlier work is.

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Speaker 4: The concept of moral panic and in st in the

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Speaker 4: phenomenon that we call the Satanic panic. I think you

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Speaker 4: hit on something really interesting with how much it has

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Speaker 4: in common with other outbreaks of public concern and paranoia,

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Speaker 4: like the infamous Red scare of McCarthyism, where you know,

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Speaker 4: high level US politicos thought dar near everyone was a communist,

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Speaker 4: or maybe more recently, things like Pizzagate, Wayfair QAnon, right,

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Speaker 4: those all three take cues from the panic, the Satanic Panic.

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Speaker 4: So the question here is, if we're defining the Satanic

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Speaker 4: Panic in like a window of time, what would that

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Speaker 4: window of time be?

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Speaker 5: You know, I think that everybody seems to break it

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Speaker 5: down a little bit differently, and I tend to put

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Speaker 5: the sort of need the big tent, polls or fence posts,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, Yeah, the trees between which we can

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Speaker 5: put the hammock of the Satanic Panic at its most powerful, maybe,

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Speaker 5: and it's big enough for everyone. Feminists, fundamentalists, whoever claim

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Speaker 5: in there figure it out later, but I would I

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Speaker 5: would put it between the publication of Michelle Remembers in

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Speaker 5: nineteen eighty because that was, you know, a book that

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Speaker 5: was marketed as nonfiction. And not only that, but he

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Speaker 5: used to train you know, new social workers and in

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Speaker 5: these police trainings that you see throughout the eighties of

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Speaker 5: you know, not only is this book published in the

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Speaker 5: non fiction genre, but we're going to believe absolutely everything

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Speaker 5: it says and go out looking for the things it

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Speaker 5: tells us to look for. And then in the early nineties,

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Speaker 5: and I want to kind of put this at about

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Speaker 5: about nineteen ninety two, we had the publication of the

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Speaker 5: Landing Report, which I believe was that year Landing's FBI report,

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Speaker 5: because he was the person whose job it was to

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Speaker 5: try and do student diligence and see if he could

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Speaker 5: find any evidence of actual Satanic cults in the US

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Speaker 5: the way that was being described, and despite using all

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Speaker 5: of the FBI's resources, could not ever find anything suggesting

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Speaker 5: that there was cult activity the way that people were describing,

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Speaker 5: you know, you had occasionally, like I guess learned recently,

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Speaker 5: there was a case in Long Island in the eighties,

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Speaker 5: for example, where a teenager murdered his friend or murdered

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Speaker 5: another teenager that he knew and said that that was

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Speaker 5: for the glorification of Satan, you know, and there were

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Speaker 5: kind of Satanic elements, and this was I just learned

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Speaker 5: to kind of the inspiration for the song Teenage dirt Bag,

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Speaker 5: which has been stuck in my head since I learned that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: this idea of like, you know, being profiled. Were also

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Speaker 5: enjoying Iron Maiden back in the day, right, So you

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Speaker 5: have cases of you know, an individual sometimes will do

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Speaker 5: something violent and bring up Satan somewhere adjacent to that.

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Speaker 5: But this idea of organized cults, especially with some kind

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Speaker 5: of a hierarchical like top down structure, who have kind

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Speaker 5: of goals and principles and are functioning like a church,

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Speaker 5: there is never any evidence of any of that. And

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Speaker 5: then of course you have the Church of Satan, which

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Speaker 5: says in its literature that they don't literally believe in Satan.

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Speaker 5: But if you want to hide a fact in America,

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Speaker 5: you should put it in a published book. And then,

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Speaker 5: of course, in the early nineties also Ensures stopped covering hypnotherapy,

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Speaker 5: which I think was a big part of this, because

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Speaker 5: if you have therapists who believe it's their job to

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Speaker 5: recover repressed memories and every patient, then it stops being

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Speaker 5: lucrative to do that. And interestingly, I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: some of the reasons that we moved moved on from

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Speaker 5: the Satanic panic as a culture is partly because we

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Speaker 5: you know, the evidence that we expected to define wasn't there,

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Speaker 5: but also because people were kind of I think, getting

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Speaker 5: tired of it being in the media. We've done a

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Speaker 5: lot of specials, you know, it's not being something you

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Speaker 5: could make a lot of money on as a therapist,

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Speaker 5: and so I think the financial incentive is also kind

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Speaker 5: of dried up.

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Speaker 6: Just to jump up this idea of the media, it

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Speaker 6: occurred to me that, like, you know, obviously we have

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Speaker 6: moral panics that resemble the Satanic Panic, because things like

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Speaker 6: the same witch trials and the Spanish inquisition. Is the

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Speaker 6: thing that makes the Satanic Panic sort of more of

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Speaker 6: a modern construct, its relationship with the media and the

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Speaker 6: legal system, and just this the way that it was

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Speaker 6: elevated in this very modern way.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think so. I think that one of the

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Speaker 5: interesting things about it is that it you know, we

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Speaker 5: have the first daycare you know, like satanic ritual abuse

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Speaker 5: case is famously the McMartin case and eventually trial in

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Speaker 5: southern California, and then you can see pretty clearly that

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Speaker 5: once that reached his national news, then some number of

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Speaker 5: parents who have their kids in daycares or some number

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Speaker 5: of local police see those stories and it's it's just

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Speaker 5: kind of it's almost a meme of an idea, right

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Speaker 5: where it's one of these things that just replicates itself

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Speaker 5: so easily in different communities because it's just such a

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Speaker 5: it's a fear that feels very easy to catch, right

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Speaker 5: and kind of speaking about, you know more in the

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Speaker 5: present day, the wayfair stuff and the way I remember

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Speaker 5: in the summer of twenty twenty one people were, you know, saying, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, actually putting your child in a mask is

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Speaker 5: just deployed by human traffickers, because if the traffickers get

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Speaker 5: your child at the food Lion, then you won't know

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Speaker 5: that it's your child because they'll have a mask on,

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Speaker 5: because you won't recognize any of their clothes or shoes

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Speaker 5: or hair.

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Speaker 4: Well, well, first off, thank you for that food Lion

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Speaker 4: shout out.

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Speaker 3: I like that reference there, Sarah.

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Speaker 4: We also we also see kind of the commonality that

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Speaker 4: you and nol are speaking to. There's a really great

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Speaker 4: point here about you know, what we described as the

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Speaker 4: phenomena of satanic panic metastasizing across a culture going viral.

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Speaker 3: As we would say.

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Speaker 4: Now, it appears though, to persist in some form even now,

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Speaker 4: in increasingly secular twenty twenty five, we will find allegations

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Speaker 4: of ritualized, satanically themed or as you said, adjacent abuse.

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Speaker 4: So is it is it persistent? Because it's so binary,

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Speaker 4: like very evil, powerful people and the most innocent victims

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Speaker 4: imaginable or like what's the what is this story telling

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Speaker 4: us about society?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, yeah, these are such good questions. I mean

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Speaker 5: that makes me think of a couple of things, which

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Speaker 5: is a I think, yes, I think that it is

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Speaker 5: because it's so binary and this idea of I mean,

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Speaker 5: for a while I was really fascinated by and this

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Speaker 5: is you know, about ten years ago and a lot

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Speaker 5: of the things that seemed to be coming have come true,

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Speaker 5: but kind of fascinated by the language of kind of

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Speaker 5: the pro life movement and especially the number of people

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Speaker 5: who were fixated on, you know, not protecting actual babies

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Speaker 5: that had been born in children who we already exist

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Speaker 5: in this country because like who cares about them? But

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Speaker 5: like in this idea that sort of in conservative American

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Speaker 5: doctrine that like babies were interesting only to the point

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Speaker 5: of birth and then after that they were like too

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Speaker 5: old to take care of or something, you know, because

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Speaker 5: the idea of we're gonna cut benefits, we're gonna cut

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Speaker 5: any kind of access to resources that parents need, but

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Speaker 5: if that baby is still inside or even like a

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Speaker 5: frozen embryo, we were going to do everything in our

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Speaker 5: power to protect that theoretical baby. And then even that

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Speaker 5: they were kind of. There was a subset within the

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Speaker 5: pro life movement that was fixated on snowflake babies, which

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Speaker 5: they named them, which is, you know, basically, when people

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Speaker 5: do IVF, you often get left with extra embryos and

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Speaker 5: you can either decide to keep them in the deep

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Speaker 5: freeze forever or donate them or just you know, I thought.

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Speaker 3: Snow snowflake babies were like soft liberal baby.

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Speaker 5: I think that's what it is now. I think now

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Speaker 5: we're all actually snowflake babies and today's parlance. But but yeah,

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Speaker 5: this idea that like that rather than chucking your unused

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Speaker 5: embryos down the drain or whatever they do with them,

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Speaker 5: that you should donate them to some fundamentalist Christians who

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Speaker 5: will then raise them with corporal punishment or whatever, which is,

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Speaker 5: you know, a great thing to invasion happening to my

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Speaker 5: imaginary embryos. But I guess this idea that like we

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Speaker 5: were turning away from actual babies because we'd found a

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Speaker 5: smaller baby, and then even with fetuses, it was like,

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Speaker 5: but what if there was a smaller and even more

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Speaker 5: innocent baby because it was just a blast cysts that

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Speaker 5: barely existed at all. Like that, you can't get more

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Speaker 5: innocent than that, right, And I'm sure just event yeah,

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Speaker 5: I'm sure we'll find an even smaller version of life soon.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, this idea that it almost feels like it

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Speaker 5: came up as a form of smoke and mirrors because

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Speaker 5: we were starting to talk in the seventies and a

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Speaker 5: way we hadn't before about sexual assaults and rape as

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Speaker 5: an endemic problem, and about child sexual abuse is something

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Speaker 5: that was happening in significant numbers, which as a culture

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Speaker 5: we hadn't really reckoned with before. And I think it

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Speaker 5: was very It saved us from a lot of difficult

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Speaker 5: conversations and from a lot of you know, pointing the

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Speaker 5: finger justifiably at having, you know, our society set up

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Speaker 5: in a way that kind of does facilitate abuse, you know,

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Speaker 5: where we can see now that like a lot of

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Speaker 5: abuse happens in churches and not Satanic ones, and that's

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Speaker 5: because of you know, kind of a very rigid hierarchical

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Speaker 5: power structure, for one.

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Speaker 6: And there is proof of that, by the way, right, there's.

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Speaker 5: Actual evidence of those ones. And so I feel like

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Speaker 5: the idea of having you know, this cross can who's

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Speaker 5: getting abused and who's committing the abuse it's like, well,

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Speaker 5: only tiny children and or you know, once it moves

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Speaker 5: on to adults, you can use it to say like, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, you know, babe, you weren't satanically abused, like

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Speaker 5: you weren't ever tied up in a field and made

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Speaker 5: to you know, stab a baby like you were. Only

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Speaker 5: you only experienced garden variety abuse of the kind that

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Speaker 5: women have experienced forever. So who cares? It was interestingly

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Speaker 5: like a way of saying who cares while claiming to

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Speaker 5: care so deeply about a problem. And then I think

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Speaker 5: there's just the fact that we've had the Devil as

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Speaker 5: an American character since the very beginning, and so we

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Speaker 5: just can he'se him, We're used to him. He kind

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Speaker 5: of he he's ready.

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Speaker 6: Okay, we're gonna take a quick break here, aware from

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Speaker 6: our sponsor, and then come right back to our conversation

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Speaker 6: with Sarah, and we're back. Let's jump right back in.

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Speaker 6: You pointed out a neat distinction. I just wanted to

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Speaker 6: ask you about the moment when the devil became a

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Speaker 6: thing that's just around versus the devil of the Bible

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Speaker 6: that you see when you go to hell after you've

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Speaker 6: lived a bad life, this idea of taking the devil

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Speaker 6: and inserting it into everyday life and becoming a thing

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Speaker 6: that you can find all around you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Just how that sort of you know, propelled.

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Speaker 5: This kind of thing, right, Yeah, And there's like there's

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Speaker 5: this interesting unspoken thing and the initial sproad of the

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Speaker 5: Satanic panic, where if you're secular, then you can say, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, these people believe in Satan, and there's do it.

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Speaker 5: They're doing all these things because they believe in Satan,

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Speaker 5: and so belief is scary enough. We don't have to

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Speaker 5: believe in actual Satan. But then within the movement there's

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Speaker 5: always people who you know unspoken or very much spoken reasons.

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Speaker 5: The problem is no, like the devil is showing up.

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Speaker 5: People hold these rituals and he's there, you know. And

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Speaker 5: then Michelle remembers the devil turns up as a character

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Speaker 5: and the last portion of the book and he speaks

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Speaker 5: in dogg girl. It had to be very hard to

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Speaker 5: come up with all those rhymes, and I can't believe

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Speaker 5: Michelle followed through it, to be honest, But I don't

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Speaker 5: know the thing. I always feel like I have an

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Speaker 5: interesting blind spot here too, though, because I grew up

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Speaker 5: pretty secular, and like, I am so much more ready

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Speaker 5: to believe in God than I am to believe in

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Speaker 5: the devil. I just have no interest in the devil,

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Speaker 5: you know. And I think that you can see in

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Speaker 5: kind of modern American Protestantism, the strain of thinking that

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Speaker 5: you know, goes through different denominations by different names, but

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Speaker 5: this idea that no, the devil is actually responsible for

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Speaker 5: the thoughts that you don't want to be having, for

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Speaker 5: your depression, you know, for the feelings that are inconvenient

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Speaker 5: to you, for the things that you feel tended to

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Speaker 5: do that maybe are very reasonable but are forbidden by

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Speaker 5: the religion that you're stuck in, you know, So that

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Speaker 5: the devil just becomes an interesting character, partly because I

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Speaker 5: think everyone kind of means some one slightly different when

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Speaker 5: they when they refer to that person.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely right.

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Speaker 4: It's it's not only its names, but its definitions are legion,

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Speaker 4: I think, is what we're saying here. And Okay, we're

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Speaker 4: gonna have to talk about Patrick Swayze at some point.

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Speaker 4: How However, before we do that, there's something that I

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Speaker 4: think is really connecting with a lot of our fellow

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Speaker 4: listeners tuning in here which is Michelle Remembers, with which

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Speaker 4: Matt and you mentioned just a minute ago, but it

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Speaker 4: also ties into the psychology. So up there with mass media,

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Speaker 4: I think we also see something akin to the earlier

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Speaker 4: spiritualism movement, the idea that science can answer the supernatural

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Speaker 4: or allegations thereof. So can you tell us a little

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Speaker 4: bit more about the origin story of Michelle Remembers and

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Speaker 4: the psychology and evaluation controversy involves.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, spiritualism is such an interesting thing

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Speaker 5: to compare it to because it feels like a feel

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Speaker 5: that we created out of kind of the things that

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Speaker 5: we desired to be able to figure out. And so

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Speaker 5: Michelle Remembers is a book about this real woman. Her

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Speaker 5: name was Michelle. This was in Victoria, BSI in the

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Speaker 5: nineteen seventies, and she went back to her former therapist

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Speaker 5: and I think late nineteen seventy six because she was

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Speaker 5: experiencing depression following a miscarriage, and interestingly, her therapist was like,

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Speaker 5: there's no reason for you to be this depressed. You're

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Speaker 5: simply too depressed, which I like to think a therapist

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Speaker 5: wouldn't say today. But you know, half of the time

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Speaker 5: people seeking therapy have to just just talk to someone,

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Speaker 5: you know, who's like eating popcorn in the whole time

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Speaker 5: and working for better help. So it could probably happen today.

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Speaker 5: But he just felt that, like he had given her

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Speaker 5: such good therapy in the past, this is according to

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Speaker 5: the book, that there had to be something more, and

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Speaker 5: so he put her into some kind of a trans

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Speaker 5: like state. The book never refers to it as hypnosis.

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Speaker 5: It seems at least hypnosis adjacent. And you know, hypnosis

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Speaker 5: is also kind of a complicated concept that is not

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Speaker 5: as magical as we would like it to be, because

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Speaker 5: what we kind of know now about the way hypnosis

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Speaker 5: works is that you're not going to be more truthful

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Speaker 5: in a hypnotic state than you would be in a

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Speaker 5: non hypnotic or non trance state, and some people are

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Speaker 5: more susceptible to it than others, but you are going

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Speaker 5: to be a lot more open to suggestion. And so

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Speaker 5: he started doing this therapy with her where he believed

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Speaker 5: that he was age aggressing her to the age of five,

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Speaker 5: and she began, in this first session, described kind of

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Speaker 5: this kind of dream like scenario where she was on

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Speaker 5: a table, there were women in the room lighting candles,

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Speaker 5: and her mother wouldn't look at her. I think was

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Speaker 5: part of the dream because she also had, you know,

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Speaker 5: a very traumatic bringing with a lot of abuse in

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Speaker 5: the home and a mother who died when she was

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Speaker 5: very young, and her therapists again kind of rather than

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Speaker 5: looking at her life and thinking, all this trauma that

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Speaker 5: you've experienced that I know about is a reason enough

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Speaker 5: free to be traumatized. We don't have to go looking

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Speaker 5: for more stuff, kind of took these images from the

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Speaker 5: first session they did and said, you know, that sounds

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Speaker 5: like sounds a bit satanic, sounds a bit wichy to me,

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Speaker 5: and kind of guided her. And this is in the

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Speaker 5: text of the book toward the conclusion that her mother

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Speaker 5: had given her to a Satanic cult. And then suddenly

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Speaker 5: they had to keep doing these long sessions where he

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Speaker 5: also had to apparently start hugging her the entire time

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Speaker 5: because she was recovering memories of a Satanic cult that

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Speaker 5: had imprisoned her for a sustained period when she was five.

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Speaker 5: And again she had siblings at the time who very

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Speaker 5: easily contradicted this. She was, you know, we have her

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Speaker 5: attendance records from school. She was never out of school

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Speaker 5: for a week's long period, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 5: stuff in this book that's sort of physically impossible, but

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Speaker 5: it does. If you see it as sort of visions

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Speaker 5: of the kinds of you know, the kinds of emotional

436
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 5: pain that she had been through, it makes sense. But

437
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 5: the problem was that they tried to kind of make

438
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 5: it into a story where they were going to find

439
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 5: out what these cults were up to and what the

440
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 5: devil's plan was for getting power on earth, and so

441
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 5: they kind of became these spiritual warriors and their own estimation,

442
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 5: and then we're able to publish this book, leave their spouses,

443
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 5: marry each other. Unclear what order all of this happened in.

444
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 5: I feel like we got a little bit more information

445
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 5: when we did the interviews for the show about just

446
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 5: kind of how this relationship kind of started between doctor

447
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 5: and patient, which I know we all know this, but

448
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 5: you're not supposed to do that. And so it's just

449
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 5: this wildly unethical book that kind of inspired a Satanic

450
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 5: panic that progressed along the same lines of people. You

451
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 5: can see a lot of people throughout the whole Satanic

452
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 5: panic who grabbed onto that hero role and wouldn't let

453
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 5: go of it.

454
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're listening to the show The Double, you

455
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: know that's episode two Marilyn Remembers, And just quick spoiler.

456
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: Marilyn is the name of the former spouse of Lawrence

457
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: Larry Padster, who is the guy who wrote the book

458
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: with Michelle Smith, the one we're talking about. Michelle remembers.

459
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: I've seen to recall that the divorce occurred in like

460
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: seventy eight, and then the book came out, and that's

461
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: when they're writing the book, and then the book comes

462
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 2: out in nineteen eighty. So it certainly seems as though

463
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: there's a romantic nature to that relationship, as some of

464
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: these tapes are being recorded and as some of it's happened.

465
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 5: Well, let me tell you, when you're reading the book,

466
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 5: it is clear, and all the copy and all the

467
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 5: promotional material they're just co authors. They're just doctor and patient.

468
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 5: And but you know, the I think we I can't

469
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 5: remember if we have this exact excerpt in the episode.

470
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure we do, but you know that it's

471
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 5: the book is showing us Larry seeing Michelle and she

472
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 5: was a pretty young woman with masses of curls and

473
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 5: a heart shaped mouth, and you're like what are we doing.

474
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a whole subreddit called men writing Women and

475
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 4: this is this is a top notch example cardinal sense. Yeah,

476
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 4: because in the like you're saying Siah in the text

477
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 4: which we did check out, there's there's stuff that calls

478
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 4: into serious ethical question the objectivity of the research, even

479
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 4: just bracketing way the the very challenged and controversial techniques

480
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 4: that you're describing, like regression therapy. There there's something else

481
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 4: that there's something else that we have to go into

482
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 4: when you're talking about not just in the second but

483
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 4: the third episode, and it kind of speaks to something

484
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 4: you alluded to earlier, the idea of satanic panic as

485
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 4: a business word industry.

486
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: What is.

487
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 4: How does asking a child about this kind of situation,

488
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: these allegations of satanic abuse? How does that occur? How

489
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 4: are psychologists tackling that? And what is this idea of

490
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 4: confession versus compliance?

491
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: Yeah?

492
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 5: Well, I mean the McMartin case where this all started

493
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 5: as a great example, because I mean one of the

494
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 5: things that it's easy to take for granted now is

495
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 5: that we do, you know, with as many problems as

496
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 5: we have with our system and as many reasons we

497
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 5: can see that it was you know that it's not broken,

498
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 5: but is functioning as designed and designed to oppress. We

499
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 5: at least have been around long enough to have best

500
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 5: practices around questioning small children. You know, like theres been

501
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 5: enough work done in the past few decades that police

502
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 5: and social workers have some kind of a sense of

503
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 5: what the norm is if you're going to try and

504
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 5: forensically question a child, especially a small child, about sexual abuse,

505
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 5: and that we just really didn't have that in the

506
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 5: early eighties. This was a field that was really just

507
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 5: beginning to be created, and so if you were going

508
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 5: to question a child who was, you know, maybe three

509
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 5: or four years old, as the kids in the McMartin case,

510
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 5: and a lot of the cases that followed were. I mean, interestingly,

511
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 5: you didn't hear about satan as infiltrating elementary schools. Generally,

512
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 5: you heard about them infiltrating daycare centers and nursery schools.

513
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 5: And I think that one of the reasons for that

514
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 5: is because these cases can actually be replicated if you

515
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 5: asked a new group of children, you know, he is

516
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 5: kind of any nursery school about the things that social

517
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 5: workers and police officers at this point were starting to

518
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 5: think about has indications of satanic stuff. Right, So there's

519
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 5: this thing that happens in the McMartin case, and then

520
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 5: in other cases kind of following after that, where you

521
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 5: have a child, they initially say that nothing happened or

522
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 5: they don't know what you're talking about. And so, for example,

523
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 5: I believe in McMartin, the concern was that a teacher

524
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: had abused children at the guys of taking their temperature.

525
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 5: So you ask a child about that, they say they

526
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 5: don't know anything. And then so what you would do

527
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 5: in this case is to kind of guide them an

528
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 5: imaginative play, you know, bring out toys. And then if

529
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 5: they say something weird the way that little kids very like,

530
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 5: the way little kids do very very frequently, which I

531
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 5: think is you know, developmentally appropriate, they say something yeah, yeah,

532
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 5: if they say something a little bit odd or violent,

533
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 5: or if they like, you know, this is this. I'm

534
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 5: not basing this on anything this example, but say if

535
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 5: I'm interviewing a child and they pull a doll's head off,

536
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 5: and I'll say, is that what is that? What they

537
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 5: may do?

538
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 7: You do to the baby? Right?

539
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 5: And if I'm blurring the line between imagination and reality.

540
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 5: And if I'm working with a three or four year

541
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 5: old who doesn't fully understand, you know, the difference between

542
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 5: play and in reality in some ways, or who has

543
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 5: a very strong imagination, and who also maybe just wants

544
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 5: to be done with this conversation, I can probably get

545
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 5: them to agree with me that yes, they did cut

546
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 5: the baby's head off. And then I will go to

547
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 5: all the other children and say, tell us about this

548
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 5: baby whose head you cut off? And if I say it,

549
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 5: like it definitely. Like even adults, if they're told that

550
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 5: something happened that didn't happen, can generally be counted on to,

551
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 5: at least some of the time, be like, hey, yeah,

552
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 5: that does sound familiar.

553
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 6: Well, you're a small kid and you're speaking to someone

554
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 6: who's in a position of authorities, with a sense of

555
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 6: authority and confidence. They're kind of painting reality for you.

556
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 6: They're the like person you're literally looking up to, like,

557
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 6: how are you maybe not going to be taken along?

558
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 6: They keep asking you these questions that are describing these

559
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 6: odd scenarios.

560
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: Well, you know what, it was kind of weird.

561
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 6: Actually, now that you mentioned it expertly, that's that seems

562
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 6: off right.

563
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 5: And then as a kid, adults are really writing the

564
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 5: reality that you live in. And so one of the

565
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 5: counter arguments of the idea that these you know, that

566
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 5: these cases are flawed is well, kids don't lie. And

567
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 5: it's like, well, a, they do, and that's fine. We're

568
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 5: not saying there's anything morally wrong with that, you know,

569
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 5: it's I think I would often, maybe more you could

570
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 5: call it fibbing.

571
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: And b.

572
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 5: They will say what they need to to get out

573
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 5: of a situation where they know that they can't escape

574
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 5: unless they give you what you want, and that's kind

575
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 5: of your fault as a hetault. In fact, it's definitely

576
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 5: your fault. Mm hmm.

577
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: Keep thinking about it's horrific reality that we live in

578
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 2: where there is so much child abuse that occurs in

579
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: all kinds of different institutions. Like it's just the reality

580
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: that we live in this world right where that just occurs.

581
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: And then trying to imagine that the con even the

582
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: concept of a Satanic based version of an organized group

583
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: that does that to children is seem silly, But the

584
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: fact that it is reality that other people do it

585
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: just under the guise of you know, scouting, scouting or

586
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: something that seems completely innocuous to us and did for

587
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: a long time, But in reality there was there's a

588
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: whole group of kids who became you know, men and

589
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: women who had just been abused by systems that never

590
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: said anything about it because they were trained not to

591
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: say anything about it, right, and then it was too difficult.

592
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: There's so many reasons. It's just it's striking me that

593
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: it does seem so almost silly, the concept of a

594
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: satanic abuse system like that that was alleged so many times.

595
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: But at the same time it all in a weird way,

596
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: it's not silly at all. I guess for the people

597
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: who were living through those times in that moment, maybe.

598
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: Is it a comfort?

599
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 6: Is it a way of explaining away the evils of

600
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 6: the world by like making it superbinary, like a lot

601
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 6: of conspiracies kind of do or a lot of conspiracy

602
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 6: theories kind of do?

603
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 5: I think so it's not. But yeah, I mean, speaking

604
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 5: of the silliness, I think there is something reassuring in

605
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 5: that way of saying, well, why would someone abu as

606
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 5: a child, Well, only because they worshiped the devil, So

607
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 5: no one who's worshiping God by definition abuse a child.

608
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 5: And it's like Oh, no, they can.

609
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 3: It's a very very sneaky decision. Tree. I agree with you.

610
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 4: There one question here as well, when we're talking about

611
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 4: I loved your phrase of adults painting reality for children.

612
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 4: That leads to a question that I know is on

613
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 4: all of our fellow listener's minds after all of the

614
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 4: research that you have done on this aspect in particular,

615
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 4: and we can't commend you enough for your objectivity there

616
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 4: by the way, oh thank you, because you take pains

617
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 4: to fairly and accurately describe the methods right that these

618
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 4: evaluators employ. We have to ask, in your opinion, were

619
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 4: these folks acting in good faith? Like did they believe

620
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 4: what they were asking the kids about?

621
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 5: I do think so, Yeah. I think that people generally

622
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 5: did believe. And in fact, it's hard for me to

623
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 5: think of anybody who I think was acting in bad

624
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 5: faith in all of this. But I think that maybe

625
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 5: in a way, you know, someone who is.

626
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 7: Truly deeply committed to a belief system can be much

627
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 7: more dangerous than someone who's just kind of in it

628
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 7: for themselves, you know, because someone actually I got to

629
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 7: speak once to Ken Lanning, the author of the Landing Report,

630
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 7: just to a phone call, so I didn't get to

631
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 7: record this, and I wish I had, because he had

632
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 7: this amazing metaphor about how it's all like the music man, right,

633
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 7: because if you have someone who's a true believer, they're

634
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 7: not going to give up on that belief.

635
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 5: But if you have the music man coming to town

636
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 5: and creating a moral panic about pool Hall so they

637
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 5: can sell brass instruments to everybody, and then if Ron

638
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 5: Howard confronts him, baby Ron Howard, about how he's scamming everyone,

639
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 5: then he will maybe admit it. Like the music man

640
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 5: is less dangerous. The con artist is maybe less dangerous

641
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 5: than the true believer. Emany have somebody like our current president,

642
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 5: who I think is like a corrent artist who lies

643
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 5: about TENCSI because he believes his own lies and sort

644
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 5: of that way of I don't know, narcissism, and also

645
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 5: uh is losing his mental faculties for so many other

646
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 5: great reasons. But yeah, I really I think that this

647
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 5: is a great example of how passionate belief in something

648
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 5: can be extremely dangerous. And I think it's it's the

649
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 5: idea of I don't know, I don't you look at people,

650
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 5: especially who wanted to do something to make the world

651
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 5: safer for children, and you think, yes, that's always a

652
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 5: good goal. And then I think you had people who

653
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 5: kind of believed that they could eradicate child abuse if

654
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 5: they could guests get rid of these Satanists. And it's like, well,

655
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 5: we let's not try to Let's not have our only

656
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 5: reason for being involved in a cause or trying to

657
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 5: make the world better this idea that we can do

658
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 5: it in a heroic role. Because I think that if

659
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 5: you're gonna be committed to doing good work in the

660
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 5: world as it is, then you have to accept that

661
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 5: it's going to feel like not very much a lot

662
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 5: of the time. Because I think that the Satanic panic

663
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 5: stuck around for so long partly because it sold people

664
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 5: this very appealing narrative where you know, as with Larry

665
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: and Michelle is they're writing Michelle remembers they're not just

666
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 5: two Catholics too were cheating on their spouses with each other.

667
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 5: They're actually stopping Satan from taking over the earth, and

668
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 5: that's the most important thing they could be doing with

669
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 5: their lives.

670
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: And a little sin is fine if it's for the great.

671
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, say it's.

672
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 6: Okay to lie, I mean, I was going to just

673
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 6: ask you about this other book in episode four. I'm

674
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 6: the name of this author is escaping me. But she

675
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 6: was on Oprah. Yeah, famously wrote a book where she

676
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,959
Speaker 6: participated in breeding babies for the purposes of Satanic sacrifice,

677
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 6: and literally Oprah platforms this person and speaking about it

678
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 6: very objectively as if all of this were fact, and

679
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 6: of course Oprah no hard questions at all, and all

680
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 6: of that was proven to be complete fabrication. Do you

681
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 6: think that person was good had good intentions? Is this

682
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 6: like a breaking the few eggs argument? Or is this

683
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 6: the person? Because then didn't she move on to another

684
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 6: grift immediately after?

685
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, Yeah, because she is a good example

686
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 5: of a grifter actually because she uh Laurence Stratford, she

687
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 5: wrote a Satanic panic memoir, she claimed, because there is

688
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 5: a question that kind of came up through the eighties

689
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 5: of like if Satanic cults were always talking about or

690
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 5: if we're always talking about the Satanic cults sacrificing like many, many,

691
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 5: many babies, where are they getting all these babies? Because

692
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 5: like it's the eighties, we actually keep a pretty close

693
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 5: eye on these babies. Yeah, and then he had, you know,

694
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 5: Lauren Stratford strapping up to be like, actually, I was

695
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 5: used by a cult to breathe these babies. I have

696
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 5: one of those baby breeders you've been hearing about. But

697
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 5: although even then she only ever talked about producing three

698
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 5: to be clear and imaginary babies. And it was also

699
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 5: in her story. I've read these the most horrible books.

700
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 5: I'm so happy to be able to take a break

701
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 5: from the literature. But you know, she her story also

702
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 5: involved kind of getting involved in pornography and then this,

703
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 5: you know, the most out there thing for a pornographer

704
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 5: to do next is to start a satanic cult? Was

705
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 5: I think at how it went in her book.

706
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 6: So it's well snuff films, right they were making, which

707
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 6: we also know is an urban legend.

708
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, sorry, thank god.

709
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of things are real, but not that

710
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 5: that what Harry, who's your who's your distributor going to

711
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 5: be for that? I ask you. It's hard enough to

712
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 5: make a midbive yet rom com these days. Yeah, So

713
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 5: this idea of like, well, you know, out in la

714
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 5: they're all doing drugs and making pornography and killing babies

715
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 5: and it's all one and the same to them.

716
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 4: So it's it's a very interesting point you bring up there,

717
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 4: because one one piece of the one missing piece of

718
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 4: the puzzle for the Satanic panic as a conspiracy theory

719
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 4: is qui bono, right, who benefits? So, uh, you raised this,

720
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 4: You raised this excellent point where he said, you know,

721
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 4: a lot of times, if you're a member of the

722
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 4: concerned public at large, it may not necessarily matter whether

723
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 4: or not a devil exists. It's the the fact that

724
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 4: there are people doing crazy, evil, horrific things. So what

725
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 4: would if we were to complete the jigsaw puzzle here

726
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 4: as members of the concerned public, what would we say

727
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 4: the ultimate end game of these devil worshipers would be?

728
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 4: Like is it just a ruin stuff or is there

729
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 4: like a greater goal at play.

730
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 6: To glorify the dark Lord?

731
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 5: Yeah?

732
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, but why right?

733
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 5: Why do we have sewing circles because it's a nice

734
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 5: way to spend Saturday night. I mean, I think the goal,

735
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 5: and this comes up, and Michelle remembers, is that like

736
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 5: Satan is going to take over the earth like pretty soon,

737
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 5: and so if you take it to its most extreme,

738
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 5: then you're like trying to then you're you know, we're

739
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 5: getting into the end times because of course late twentieth

740
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 5: century and early twenty first century Christianity has been very

741
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 5: apocalypse oriented, as we just saw when you know, we

742
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 5: had like a TikTok rapture, panic and September, which is

743
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 5: so funny to me because especially because this thing where

744
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 5: like people are like, I'm going to get raptured, but

745
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 5: who will take care of my pets? And it's like

746
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 5: your pets are going to be raptured and you're going

747
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 5: to stay. Don't worry about it.

748
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 4: Also, speaking of speaking of narcissism and inserting oneself into

749
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 4: the heroic moment, I think the appeal of cultic activity

750
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 4: and the appeal of apocalyptic belief is always that it's

751
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 4: going to happen while I'm around.

752
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 3: Yes, you know what I mean.

753
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 4: So maybe that is maybe that is part of the aspect.

754
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 4: But we keep going back to this when we were

755
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 4: talking off air about it a little bit, We keep

756
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 4: going back to this concept that there was actually no

757
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 4: proof of this like of a larger conspiracy.

758
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: Can we confirm that? Is that true? That there was

759
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 3: no proof?

760
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, if you trust

761
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 5: the FBI and the Landing report, which you know, I

762
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 5: don't trust every single little thing the FBI has ever done.

763
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 5: They did try and get Martin Luther King Junior to

764
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 5: kill himself, but I generally think they do pretty good

765
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 5: work a lot of the time. And that's one of

766
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 5: the examples. And you know, it's just the amount of

767
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 5: effort that went into because I mean, okay, so like

768
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 5: to compare it to other forms of organized crime, right

769
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 5: if you compare it to like the mafia, Like the

770
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 5: FBI was working on that and had you know, probably

771
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 5: thousands of hours of wire tapped conversations. We had trials

772
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 5: involving physical evidence. You know, there's like if you look

773
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 5: at other cases of religious abuse, right, like if you

774
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 5: look at I think that there was a you know,

775
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 5: there are cases in Canada, which of course our show

776
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 5: is also looking, you know, to some extent, how this

777
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 5: phenomenon got transported down to the United States and then

778
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 5: embiggened and taken back up to Canada to some extent,

779
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 5: you know, it was already there culturally, but American police

780
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 5: also did training and kind of brought our particular spin

781
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 5: to it. But you know, there's if you think about,

782
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 5: you know, what happened at Canadian residential schools and the

783
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 5: presence of you know, mass graves of First Nations children

784
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 5: who you know, of Indigenous people who never, never were

785
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 5: mourned and who never made it out of a system

786
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 5: that saw them as expendable. You know, we're just kind

787
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 5: of graves of of unclaimed people. Kind of one of

788
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 5: the things that we get into, and the final episode

789
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 5: actually is that, you know, it's kind of easy to

790
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 5: forget that in nineteen seventy eight, that was when the

791
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 5: Jonestown massacre happened, you know, and it was I think

792
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 5: the largest loss of American civilian life until September eleventh,

793
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 5: and about a third of the people who died in

794
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 5: Jonestown were miners. A lot of them were quite young.

795
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 5: There were a lot of babies there, and nobody wanted

796
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 5: to take the bodies of the people who had died

797
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,959
Speaker 5: of Johnstown after the fact. Nobody wanted to to bury them,

798
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 5: and they were very difficult to identify, and I think

799
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 5: most of those people were never in any way identified

800
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 5: or reunited with their families. And so we have this

801
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 5: presence of you know, if there is an actual mass

802
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 5: baby grave, like we usually know where it is, people know,

803
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 5: and it just doesn't matter that much to us, you know,

804
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 5: and that's happened pretty routinely throughout history. You know, there

805
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 5: are bodies and we keep finding them. And so this

806
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 5: idea that there are these satanic cults acting in a

807
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 5: way that would leave massive amounts of physical evidence that

808
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 5: would require huge amounts of infrastructure to do what they're saying,

809
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 5: what we're saying that they're doing. And this is kind

810
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 5: of a prosaic comparison, but I think a lot about

811
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 5: the fact that one of the things that was a

812
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 5: huge concern for the People's Temple and kind of caused

813
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 5: the unwrap veling in Jonestown was just like, how do

814
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 5: you feed this many people? Like if you have a cull,

815
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 5: they only need food, and they got hungry, like you have,

816
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 5: you know, a long worship session, and then you have

817
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 5: to feed them afterwards. And so where are these satan

818
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 5: Is getting all their food? You know? I mean it's

819
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 5: a serious question I've always had and nobody has ever

820
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 5: you know, the idea of something this big functioning without

821
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 5: leaving any kind of of evidence in terms of just

822
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 5: you know, physical evidence or the kinds of resources that

823
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 5: they needed to operate. You can only believe that if

824
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 5: you believe that the magic of Satan himself is just hiding,

825
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 5: you know, hiding all this physical evidence after the fact.

826
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 4: We sometimes refer to that as the bigfoot question, because

827
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 4: you know, if there is a if there's a large

828
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 4: cryptid of that size, no matter what it eats, it

829
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 4: poops somewhere, right, it lives, it dies, So where where

830
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 4: is the physical evidence. The Jonestown comparison there is is

831
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 4: quite harrowing because I think it teaches us that there

832
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 4: are real life consequences for people enacting beliefs, even if

833
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 4: those beliefs cannot be proven.

834
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well, and also I think what and again,

835
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: I think the sight handing panic was a way to

836
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 5: distract ourselves from this because I know that, you know,

837
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 5: Americans saw what happened, you know, in Jonestown after the fact,

838
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 5: after it was too late to do anything about it.

839
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 5: And what that revealed is that you really don't need

840
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 5: Satan at all. You just need one guy who's able to,

841
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 5: you know, just got a stranglehold on the lives of

842
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 5: a lot of people and systematically take away any sense

843
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 5: of power that they have over their own lives, make

844
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 5: it physically impossible for them to escape, and then you

845
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 5: don't need anything supernatural at all, you know, because normal

846
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 5: human abuse is enough.

847
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: And he use a sin a bunch of troops into cities.

848
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: Oh wait, wait, that's a different we're talking about.

849
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 5: Different thing to fight the evil of public nudity here

850
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 5: in Portland orgh.

851
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 4: We're gonna pause here for a word from our sponsors,

852
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 4: which are hopefully not wayfair, and we'll be right back

853
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 4: with Sarah Marshall.

854
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: And we've returned.

855
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: I wonder about underground worship sometimes, and that's not to

856
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: say speak ast anything we've been talking about. I just

857
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: wonder about, historically, over time, when there's a prevailing religion

858
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: that is in some way entrenched in the power structure,

859
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: let's say a city or state or something like that,

860
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: and then the underground worship that occurs. And I'm thinking specifically,

861
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: guys about some of the Freemasonry things that were discovered

862
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: over the years, where there was a really awesome almost

863
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 2: cave system, like small cave system that was built underneath

864
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: buildings so that people could, you know, go there small

865
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: groups and worship just the way they on it to

866
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: and they needed to without being persecuted by anybody up above.

867
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: I just wonder if that kind of thing. I don't know,

868
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 2: I get I'm kind of obsessed with this concept that

869
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: I feel like personally I'm dismissing some of it in

870
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: a way that I'm almost uncomfortable with because it feels

871
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 2: so it feels like movies that I've watched it write

872
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 2: this the whole concept of everything in the Satanic Panic.

873
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: It feels like a fictional story and there is no evidence.

874
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I almost feel like I'm

875
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: being tricked into not believing it's there's any sand to it.

876
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, is it helpful to think of it

877
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 5: in the sense of like, because I think the great

878
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 5: lie of the Satanic Panic because like, I could start

879
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 5: a Satanic cult with you right now if we all agreed,

880
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 5: we could be like our colt. Yeah, and as our

881
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 5: first cult activity, we're gonna write to our senators because

882
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 5: the most satanic thing you can do, because Satan is

883
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 5: all about asking uncomfortable questions.

884
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: Well, according to Peter Teele, it would be we would

885
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: protest some form of AI data center.

886
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,479
Speaker 5: I think, well, I've been fine with that too.

887
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 3: Oh call Greta right now, guys me, I'll text.

888
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 5: Let's get satanic let's conserve some water for the humans,

889
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 5: like satan let us do.

890
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 3: Like classic lucifer as you were saying.

891
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 5: Well, so, I think that a key part of kind

892
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 5: of the Satanic panic is like is not sort of

893
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 5: what not even exactly what it's identifying, but this idea

894
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 5: of like the Satanists have already basically taken over and

895
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 5: we're in the minority, and therefore we have to fight

896
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 5: with you know, all of the force and all of

897
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 5: the resources available to us, because the Satanists have already

898
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 5: won basically and we're like late to the party. Because

899
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 5: I think that one of the functions of a moral

900
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 5: panic is to kind of identify real anxieties and real

901
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 5: problems and then target, you know, find some kind of

902
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 5: a useful scapegoat, and to never look at who's in

903
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 5: power visibly and actually and you know, one of the

904
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 5: things I find interesting about the context of this is

905
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 5: that Reagan comes into office, you know, in early nineteen

906
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 5: eighty one, gets shot, immediately bounces right back, and then

907
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 5: one of the first things that he does, as he promised,

908
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 5: is to cut the federal budget. And one of the

909
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 5: things that he cuts the budget for is childcare, and

910
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 5: so part of the reason people are so stressed about

911
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 5: childcare and daycare in the early eighties and kind of

912
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 5: setting the stage for McMartin is because there's less there's

913
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 5: fewer viable resources than there used to be because of

914
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 5: the direct actions of the president, you know. And so

915
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 5: it feels like part of the function of a panic,

916
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 5: or of a moral panic, is to identify the wrong

917
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 5: cause for the thing that you are worried about, because.

918
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 6: It is tricky, right, because I mean, every flavor of

919
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 6: depravity and evil and you know, despicable act exists. Like

920
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 6: I think films aren't an urban legend anymore, talked recently

921
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 6: about the first like proven Stuff film out of Yasha.

922
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 5: I mean, we do have a different distribution model now

923
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 5: it makes sense.

924
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 6: Yes, every corner of the Internet, you're going to find

925
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 6: some thing that is equally as bad as what we

926
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 6: imagine Satanism to be, is not entirely worse. So we

927
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 6: don't even need this organized version of it. It's just

928
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 6: a way, like a stand in for something that already

929
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 6: exists in worse ways than we could possibly imagine. But

930
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 6: it's being weaponized in a way that isn't for the

931
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 6: greater good.

932
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 5: I think is the right. And there's this kind of

933
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 5: you know, this idea and the satanic panic of when

934
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 5: we look at who gets accused in these trials, there's

935
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 5: a statistically very out of line with what we know

936
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 5: about you know, who's abusing children. It really goes after

937
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 5: a lot of women and a lot of queer people,

938
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 5: and also just you know, anyone who's kind of a

939
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 5: low wage daycare worker, because that's who's available, and that's

940
00:51:55,320 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 5: who's easier to crush legally, to be sure, right, gotable, Yes, right,

941
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 5: it's a great m uh.

942
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 4: And this this also leads us to this interesting complication, right,

943
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 4: because as we said, we're kind of establishing the fingerprint

944
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 4: of a moral panic. That being one, there's a binary

945
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 4: good and evil.

946
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 3: These are absolute right.

947
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 4: Two, Uh, the people who are in power are in

948
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 4: a weird relationship with the underclass right as ever, Right,

949
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 4: And it turns out that the folks who are, as

950
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 4: Noel said, scapegoatable usually aren't the folks who have a

951
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 4: high uh high level Uh. They're the folks who historically

952
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 4: don't have the means to defend themselves against accusations or

953
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 4: are so big ticket sociologically that that they don't have

954
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 4: to worry about it. And this takes us to the

955
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 4: quot U Shu we teased earlier. As we're wrapping up

956
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 4: Patrick swayzey, Sarah, just give it to us straight.

957
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 3: Guy doesn't worship Satan right well, you know, as a

958
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 3: force for good.

959
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 5: Like Patrick Swayze is sitting at the right hand of

960
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 5: the Lord as we speak. Let's be real here, he's

961
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 5: playing pickleball with Simon Peter. Not really pickleballs, pickleball belongs

962
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 5: and help.

963
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 3: Yeah stuff.

964
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 8: Wait, so but please please just a story, the story

965
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 8: that we start off with, and this because you know, yeah,

966
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 8: the story is kind of we're trying to maybe give

967
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 8: you a little sampler platter for what the whole experience

968
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 8: will be like.

969
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 5: Because basically, we tell the story of this woman we

970
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 5: call her Diane and the show who uh was you know,

971
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 5: living a few hours away. Came to the small town

972
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 5: in Kentucky as an arts educator. She had a grant,

973
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 5: I believe, so she is going to teach photography at

974
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 5: locals and especially teenager is like this very nice, you know,

975
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 5: just thing of the country, people from different parts of

976
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 5: the state, different parts of the country, kind of sharing

977
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 5: skills of each other. Getting to know each other. And

978
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 5: during that same period, this is real East Kentucky. In

979
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 5: the late eighties, a film crew had come to town

980
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 5: because they were making a Patrick Swayze movie called Next

981
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 5: to Ken, which is about Patrick Swayze going back to

982
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 5: the holler where he grew up and you know, getting

983
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 5: vengeance as you do sometimes, And they had to shoot

984
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 5: a funeral scene, which actually didn't make it into the movie,

985
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 5: but to do that, they had to purchase a bunch

986
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 5: of black dresses. Like I haven't listened to it in

987
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 5: a while, but you know, it's late ten or twelve,

988
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 5: but a largish number, and a number again that you

989
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 5: would is not unimaginable, like feral is maybe the first

990
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 5: thing that you would think, maybe in reasonable frame of mind,

991
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 5: but because there was so much anxiety about kind of

992
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 5: Satanism and satan cults in the air. You know, this

993
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 5: is the era of the you know, Heraldo special where

994
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,720
Speaker 5: they're like, please, if you're if you're an impressionable child,

995
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 5: don't watch this. We're putting it on right after school

996
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 5: and or right in prime time, and it's got a

997
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 5: lot of gory, scary, violent stuff in it, so don't

998
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 5: watch it. So Obviously everybody watched it, because if you're

999
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 5: a kid, you're going to watch that.

1000
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 3: And a disclaimer is an invitation.

1001
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they knew that. And so there's just this

1002
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 5: general anxiety that Satanists are around. And so when somebody

1003
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 5: buys a bunch of black dresses all at once, that

1004
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 5: kind of is enough for the local rumor mill to

1005
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 5: kind of reach a flashpoint. And aside, the Satanists have come.

1006
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 5: There's a Satanic cult. They're looking for blonde, blue eyed

1007
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 5: children to sacrifice. Interestingly, and this woman who has come

1008
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 5: to town trying to just like educate some kids in

1009
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 5: basic photography skills. Because she's she's the outlier, she's the stranger,

1010
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 5: she's a new person in town. They decide, well, this

1011
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 5: is our Satanist and so she basically has to flee

1012
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 5: with a very reasonable fear that you know that her

1013
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 5: life is in danger, because if you have a scapegoat,

1014
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 5: then you get to come at them with all the

1015
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 5: force then that the person truly in power deserves to

1016
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 5: get from you. So because of Patrick Swayze, there was

1017
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 5: enough of a disturbance in everyday life that people felt,

1018
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 5: you know, things feel weird. And I have been told

1019
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 5: by people smarter than me that that means Satanists are

1020
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 5: here right now.

1021
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: As it reminds me a lot of the the FEMA

1022
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: camp rumors that were started by those the black Liners

1023
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 2: for Grave Grave Liners. Do you guys remember this, Yeah,

1024
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,280
Speaker 2: it was just storage, but the images circulated on social

1025
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 2: media in such a way that it was panic really.

1026
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 4: Began launching Jade Helm and their similar conspiracy theories. That's

1027
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 4: a great call, mat it. Also, it reminds me of Oregon.

1028
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 4: Theft conspiracies were common in theories that were common in

1029
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 4: Latin America, like back in they had real world consequences, Sarah,

1030
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 4: kind of like what you're illustrating with the Satanic panic.

1031
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 5: Uh.

1032
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 4: Specifically, there were Japanese nationals in Guatemala who were killed

1033
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 4: by people in a rural area because the assumption was

1034
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 4: by taking a photograph of the kid, you were planning

1035
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 4: to abduct them and steal their organs.

1036
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 3: No proof of it, but you.

1037
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 4: Have confirmed officially on stuff. They don't want you to

1038
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 4: know that Patrick Swayze is not a devil worshiper, And

1039
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 4: we couldn't be more grateful.

1040
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 5: And I'm just glad that there's not any question about it.

1041
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 5: I mean, I that's why you're here today, right.

1042
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 6: He's a bit of an agent and dirty dancing started dancing.

1043
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 3: To the summer camps.

1044
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 5: He does teenage to move cross first and you know what,

1045
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 5: I'll take it.

1046
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: It is, Yeah, I'll take it.

1047
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 4: So we we have we always like to end on

1048
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 4: one final question. First off, folks, we hope you can

1049
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 4: tell that we're huge fans of this show. We think

1050
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 4: it's extremely important, especially in an increasingly divisive and paranoid

1051
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:26,919
Speaker 4: society right these days. Sarah, what do we hope our

1052
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 4: fellow listeners can take away from the Devil?

1053
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 3: You know?

1054
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for asking that. I just I hope

1055
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 5: that you listen. It is a very as we've been

1056
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 5: talking about, in many ways, depressing subject matter. But I

1057
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,479
Speaker 5: hope that we've told the story, or allowed the people

1058
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 5: who experienced it to tell the story in a way

1059
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 5: that also highlights just how many amazing people have lived

1060
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 5: through this, and who've survived it and who are you

1061
00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 5: motivated in all things by really just the search for

1062
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 5: truth and love. You know that that's not going to

1063
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 5: go out of style. And I would also say that

1064
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 5: this really we tried to tell the story of the

1065
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 5: kind of the origin and the spread and the shape

1066
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 5: that this took. But also this is, you know, really

1067
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 5: just the tip of the iceberg. And I think that

1068
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 5: as much media and as much reckoning as we've done

1069
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 5: with the Satanic Panic in the past few years, there's

1070
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 5: so much more to do, and there's so much more

1071
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 5: history left undiscovered. So I hope that this inspires people to,

1072
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 5: you know, if you get curious, to do your own research,

1073
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 5: to find more of those stories that we haven't heard yet,

1074
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 5: and also just to as we're living through this moment,

1075
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 5: to maybe take some perspective and useful knowledge and comfort

1076
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 5: from the fact that this is something that seems to recur.

1077
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 5: Moral panics seem to be a part of not just

1078
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 5: the culture we're in, but kind of the people that

1079
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 5: we are, and to learn how to ride those waves,

1080
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 5: because there's a lot of us all all in this

1081
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 5: trying to he's trying to keep telling the truth and

1082
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 5: keep taking care of each other, you know. And I

1083
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 5: think that when I when you're younger, you might have

1084
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 5: the idea of history that, like, you know, especially before

1085
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 5: our country descended into fascism, it was easy to look

1086
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 5: back at history and be like, why didn't Germans just

1087
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 5: simply stop it? Why didn't they say, hey, stop that?

1088
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 5: And now we have been humbolt and and so that

1089
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 5: you know, you can you can live in a culture

1090
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 5: that's going out of its mind and you can't steer it.

1091
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 5: Maybe on the scale that you would have liked to

1092
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 5: believe that you could be, can still make more of

1093
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 5: a difference than you may realize you're doing at the time.

1094
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 5: And that's what we're trying to tell too with the

1095
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 5: story Amazing.

1096
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 3: This reminds me so much of your earlier work on

1097
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 3: You're Wrong about Thank.

1098
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 5: You Yeah, thank you Yeah, And that's you know, and

1099
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 5: we love making that show today and just kind of

1100
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 5: sharing sharing stories and and getting to laugh about it too.

1101
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 5: I think that's important. These are all really hard, sad stories,

1102
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 5: but we get to laugh about it together and that's

1103
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 5: gonna help us get through all this.

1104
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: For my final question, sir, do you still talk to

1105
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 2: Tonya Harding? And is she doing okay?

1106
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 5: I have never met Tanya Harding. I really want to,

1107
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 5: but I want it to happen organically. I want to

1108
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 5: us like get really into skating and then one day

1109
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 5: we're going to run into each other and then We're

1110
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 5: just gonna like kind of nod. It'll be like the

1111
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 5: end of Francis Ha.

1112
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 3: Okay, perfect.

1113
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 6: The only thing I know about Francis Haw is the twirl.

1114
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 6: I actually need to get a bit of a blind

1115
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 6: spot for me.

1116
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 4: It's gonna happen. We're manifesting it. Sarah are our final

1117
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 4: thank here. First off, thank you for being so generous

1118
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 4: with your time. Thank you for your excellent work as

1119
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 4: a media analyst, as a writer, as a as a podcaster.

1120
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 4: Uh where can outwur Fell listeners go to learn more

1121
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 4: about not just The Devil you Know, but your many

1122
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 4: other projects.

1123
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, well yeah, so of course check out The Devil

1124
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 5: you Know. It's out from CBC Podcasts. Listen to it.

1125
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 5: Wherever you got podcasts. You can listen to my week

1126
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 5: to week I guess once every two weekly Fortnightly you

1127
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 5: can listen to my fortnightly show You're wrong about as well,

1128
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 5: which is also wherever you fine podcasts. My mom, if

1129
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 5: she would listening, would say what what does that mean?

1130
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 5: And I would tell her just google it, Just google

1131
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 5: it's my name and it'll it'll come up. And I

1132
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 5: feel like I should tell you to visit a website

1133
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 5: or a newsletter or something.

1134
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 3: Oh remember Sarah Marshall.

1135
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's my website. Yeah, I have a website. I

1136
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 5: really need to update it. But it's it's pretty good.

1137
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 3: I love it.

1138
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 6: You just gotten ahead of the forgetting Sarah Marshall jokes

1139
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 6: with your r L.

1140
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 3: I think it's key.

1141
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 5: I'm sure you love.

1142
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 6: It when people bring that up.

1143
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 5: I got right on top of that one. Yeah, that

1144
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 5: was important set. But if you want to find out

1145
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 5: more about the Satanic panic, also listen to American Hysteria,

1146
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 5: another great show that is made by my friend Chelsea

1147
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 5: Weber Smith and I got to go on there and

1148
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 5: guest sometimes, which is an amazing show. And there's just

1149
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 5: so much There's so much great stuff out there. Read

1150
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 5: some old Texas Monthly articles, watch the Paradise Lost documentary.

1151
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 2: There.

1152
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 5: We've mentioned some some good stuff here today. So yeah,

1153
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 5: listen to my show, listen to other shows. If your

1154
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 5: brain is too overwhelmed to listen to anything right now,

1155
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 5: I also really understand. Just take a nice walk.

1156
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 3: And there you have it.

1157
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 4: Folks, get thee to thy podcast platform of choice and

1158
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 4: check out The Devil. You know, we had a great

1159
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 4: time with this. When we can't wait to hear your thoughts.

1160
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 3: Guys.

1161
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 4: This was I think this was a great accompaniment to

1162
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 4: our earlier episode about how so your soul works?

1163
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 3: Right?

1164
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and our episode are there real devil worshipers

1165
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 2: and Italy's Satanic murders and gosh we've been talking.

1166
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 3: About snosis work. Yeah, we we went deep.

1167
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 4: As you can tell. We're big, big fans of Sarah.

1168
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 4: Do check out you're wrong about as well. If you

1169
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 4: dig our show, you'll love that one and hit us

1170
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 4: on folks, We would again love to hear your thoughts.

1171
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 4: You can call us on the phone, you can send

1172
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 4: us an email, you can find us on the lines.

1173
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 6: Oh please do find us at the hammlic Conspiracy Stuff

1174
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 6: where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's

1175
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 6: where it gets crazy, on XFK, a Twitter and on

1176
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 6: YouTube or we have video content just galore for you

1177
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 6: to dive into on Instagram and TikTok. However, we are

1178
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 6: Conspiracy Stuff a show.

1179
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1180
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. Why don't you call in tell us

1181
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 2: what you thought about the episode and maybe your experience

1182
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: with a satanic cult. When you call it, give yourself

1183
01:04:58,680 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 2: a cooal nickname, and let us know if we can

1184
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 2: your name and message on the air. If you want

1185
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 2: to send us an email, you can do that.

1186
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 4: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1187
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 4: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void

1188
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 4: writes back, would you like a random fact? Would you

1189
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 4: like a random quotation? Something that Sarah referenced in our

1190
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 4: conversation reminded me of a quote we've shared in the past,

1191
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 4: but it's terrifyingly relevant for this Methodist pastor David Barnhardt said, quote,

1192
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 4: The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for.

1193
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 4: They never make demands of you. They are morally uncomplicated,

1194
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 4: unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor. And when

1195
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 4: they are born, you can forget about them because they

1196
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 4: cease to be unborn. They are, in short, the perfect

1197
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 4: people to love if you want to claim you love

1198
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 4: Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe, prisoners, immigrants, the sick,

1199
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 4: the poor, widows, orphans, all the groups that are specifically

1200
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 4: mentioned in the Bible. They all get thrown under the

1201
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 4: bus for the unborn conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1202
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You To Know is a production

1203
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,959
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1204
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.