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Speaker 1: M what esoteric my hitler ISM's ship that is two

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Speaker 1: hitler starts in a row. Jesus Robert, Well it fits

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Speaker 1: with this episode. This is Behind the Bastards podcast about

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Speaker 1: the worst people in all of history. I'm Robert Evans.

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Speaker 1: I'm the host, and my guest today is Jamie.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I just go Jamie one name.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: I'm the Beyonce of No Billy Wayne's, the Beyonce of

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Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you are the podcaster formerly known as the Beyonce

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Speaker 1: of Behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're the Beyonce of my heart. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there we go, Here we go. Oh Jamie, how

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Speaker 1: are you doing today?

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Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm good.

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Speaker 2: I I think that that's true.

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Speaker 3: I'm good.

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Speaker 2: I have to add I have to add it probably good.

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Speaker 2: I have to add a bag to my Spirit Airlines flight.

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Speaker 2: But that's about as as challenging as it's getting to day.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of monsters, that is the greatest monster of all

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Speaker 1: online interface.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to like swipe your credit card if

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Speaker 2: you sneeze on a Spirit our Lines.

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Speaker 1: I have this friend, his name is Lenny, and he

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Speaker 1: listens to the podcast, so he may hear this and

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Speaker 1: Lenny is one of the one of the most experienced

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Speaker 1: travelers I know, and at one point I was taking

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Speaker 1: a flight with him in Eastern Europe to Ukraine through

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Speaker 1: whizz Air, which is one of the worst airlines plane

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Speaker 1: I've heard of.

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Speaker 3: Whizz Air.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're terrible.

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Speaker 3: Never had the pleasure.

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Speaker 1: There was a moment where they started hassling us about

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Speaker 1: our bags and it became clear that we weren't going

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Speaker 1: to be able to like fit everything like that, we

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Speaker 1: were going to have to take stuff out. And the

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Speaker 1: line from him that I'll never forget was I guess, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm wearing all my pants today.

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Speaker 2: I've bore multiple pairs of pants on how if you're

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Speaker 2: not going onto his Spirit Airlines flight wearing five jackets?

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Speaker 2: Like what you you're you're grabbing yourself, You're I've been

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Speaker 2: on a Spirit Airlines red eye next to like an

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Speaker 2: actively drunk person multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Although that's just normal, I.

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Speaker 3: Know, but I think, yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't wept, if you haven't wept and thrown

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Speaker 1: things away while waiting to get in line at Spirit Airlines,

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Speaker 1: have you even flown? We've gotten off topic, very off topic, Jamie, Yes,

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Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Savitri dev No? Oh good,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, Jamie, you are in for a motherfucking treat. Ooh.

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Speaker 3: I love when you don't tell me an advance.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Yeah, this is one I'm gonna guess almost

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Speaker 1: nobody listening to has heard of. But she's one of

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Speaker 1: the most important people for understanding where we are right

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Speaker 1: now in the year twenty twenty, Like the most the

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Speaker 1: most recent headline that ties directly to you. Remember when

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Speaker 1: the FBI arrested all those members of the base, that

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Speaker 1: that neo Nazi group, there's plenty to start a second

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Speaker 1: Civil War by randomly firing into a crowd in Virginia

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Speaker 1: that was full of armed people. Yeah, that whole, the

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Speaker 1: whole hulla balloo. Yes, yeah, Well she's kinda behind all that,

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Speaker 1: although she died decades before it happened. So that's today's story.

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Speaker 3: Nice, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: So now, Jamie, we're gonna start like we start every

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Speaker 1: good day by talking about our loll buddy. Shouldn't call

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Speaker 1: him a buddy, Adolf Hitler. Oh, it's weird because I

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Speaker 1: can call Stalin a buddy, but I feel like calling

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Speaker 1: Hitler a Buddy's a bridge too far.

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Speaker 3: I don't know on this show, I feel like there

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Speaker 3: are just rules that are different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're old friends at this point. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Hitler was at he was a secular ruler, Jamie. He

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Speaker 1: was not a not a not a not a. I

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Speaker 1: think I think there's a lot of misconceptions about kind

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Speaker 1: of the nature of his power and like his regime

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Speaker 1: because of all of these like History Channel documentary, in

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Speaker 1: this industry of books on Nazi occult history and like

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Speaker 1: Nazi magic and the hell Boy movies like to hear it, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean they're great movies, at least one of them is.

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Speaker 1: But like this idea that like the Nazis were like

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Speaker 1: full of full of magic, right, and that Hitler like

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Speaker 1: believed all sorts of like weird kooky occult stuff about

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Speaker 1: like raising the dead and aliens and shit, and it's

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Speaker 1: just not true. There were some funky occult ties to

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Speaker 1: national socialism, but they were phrase oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: cult ties, yeah baby yeah, But they weren't to Hitler.

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Speaker 1: They were to like kind of like side figures, like

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Speaker 1: the b List of the Nazis. A lot of those

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Speaker 1: guys were kind of into the occult, but like your

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Speaker 1: A listers really were pretty secular guys.

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Speaker 2: Beyonces the Nazi Beyonce is as I'm trying to think of, like.

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Speaker 1: Like the the Nazi Jeremy Renners.

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Speaker 2: Oh, how dare you speak his name in this forum?

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Speaker 3: I thought we made a pact to never speak of

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Speaker 3: him again.

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Speaker 1: We never signed that contract. We never did.

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Speaker 3: It was under negotiation for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is still in arbitration now. The Toulliss Society

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Speaker 1: spelled Thule Society like the top racks on people's jeeps?

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Speaker 1: Was it? Well? Suberus people Suberus. The Tullas Society was

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Speaker 1: a German ocult group in the early twentieth century in Germany,

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Speaker 1: and it provided some of the early funding and leadership

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Speaker 1: for the Nazi Party. Heinrich Himmler held bizarre quasi magical

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Speaker 1: beliefs for his whole time in power, and he was

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Speaker 1: kind of into some weird He thought he was like

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Speaker 1: a reincarnated prince and some shit. Sure, but Hitler himself

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Speaker 1: was not at all into occult stuff. And the only

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Speaker 1: guy really close to him who was was Rudolph Hess,

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Speaker 1: who was his deputy and for a long time his

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Speaker 1: best friend. This is the guy he like co wrote

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Speaker 1: minekompf with like Hess and Hitler are like fucking type

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Speaker 1: before Hitler.

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Speaker 3: His ghost his ghost writer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like more like his his muse. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and also the guy who was a competent typist both.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you got you gotta if your muse is

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Speaker 2: also a competent typist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Who says the perfect person doesn't exist?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Rudolph has That's what people say about Rudolph Has

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Speaker 1: is he was the perfect person. So he was also

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Speaker 1: the deputy fearer for a while oh six. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was a cool dude, but he wasn't really in the

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Speaker 1: picture for very long. He got increasingly marginalized after Hitler

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Speaker 1: came to power in thirty three, and in nineteen forty

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Speaker 1: one he kind of went bug fuck and got on

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Speaker 1: a plane and flew to Great Britain while the two

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Speaker 1: countries were at war. Sorry sorry, sorry?

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Speaker 3: How would you define bug fuck?

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Speaker 1: I would define bug fluck is like independently hopping in

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Speaker 1: your private plane and flying to a country that your

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Speaker 1: country is actively bombing to try to parachute down and

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Speaker 1: negotiate for peace between your two nations without anyone asking

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Speaker 1: me to. I would describe that as pretty bug fuck. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not This.

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Speaker 2: Is like a new term for me, and now this

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Speaker 2: is the only like reference point I have for it,

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Speaker 2: So I'm not gonna know how to how to define

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Speaker 2: bug fuck moving forward. Okay, So bug fuck is when

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Speaker 2: like the world is falling apart and you're like fuck

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Speaker 2: it and you go the fuck off and then you

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Speaker 2: is that.

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Speaker 1: It kind of yeah, like it was the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing where like there was no chance of it ever working.

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Speaker 1: He did not have the authority to sign a peace

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Speaker 1: treaty for Germany, and Britain did not have any interest

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Speaker 1: in talking with him or making peace with Germany at

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Speaker 1: this point sick. So he basically just flew and crash

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Speaker 1: landed in England and got arrested and spent the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life in prison. Very much And it was

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Speaker 1: a huge embarrassment for Hitler because this this is like

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Speaker 1: his right hand man who in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: war like flies to his enemies country to like try

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Speaker 1: to negotiate without Hitler's approval. It was it was very weird.

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Speaker 1: And because Hess was like this occult dude into astrology

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Speaker 1: and all this shit and like this weird, he was

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Speaker 1: actually kind of like a Buddhist, like he's a weird dude.

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Speaker 1: But because he held all these weird beliefs and he

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Speaker 1: pissed off Hitler so badly, Hitler bans like all of

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Speaker 1: this weird occult shit that had cropped up around the

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Speaker 1: Nazi party in nineteen forty one. Okay, so yeah, so

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Speaker 1: after forty one, like really most of that stuff is illegal.

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Speaker 1: Heinrich Himler gets up to a little bit of it

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Speaker 1: with the SS because he's got a castle and he

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Speaker 1: he's just a weird dude. We'll get into some of

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Speaker 1: that in the later episode. The important thing to understand

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Speaker 1: is that, like, yeah, Hitler was like a distinctly not

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Speaker 1: wooy guy, Like he's not a new age sort of dude.

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Speaker 3: He's like a dive.

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Speaker 2: If you mentioned you're like if I He's like the

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Speaker 2: guys on Reddit who like, if you mentioned you so

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Speaker 2: much as mention your zodiac sign, they're like, she's not credible,

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Speaker 2: she's fine, she's a she's lost.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I love that type of person.

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Speaker 1: And I feel confident saying that one hundred percent of

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Speaker 1: Hitler's biographers agree he would have been extremely on Reddit.

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Speaker 1: I oh, more on Reddit than anyone has ever been

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Speaker 1: on red.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he would be the most reddity guy of

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Speaker 2: all of them. And we have to admit that that

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Speaker 2: is very what's his sign? That's that's very his sign

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Speaker 2: of him.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't you say, I don't know, he's such.

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Speaker 3: A Taurus He's sure?

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Speaker 1: Sure, Okay, continue, that's I assume you're referring to the

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Speaker 1: maker of really shoddy handguns, uh, which is I think

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Speaker 1: they're Brazilian terrible guns.

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Speaker 3: To Okay, Now, I'm just trying to on the behind

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Speaker 3: the bastards board.

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Speaker 1: Now, either way, advocating the Taurus sign or the Taurus

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Speaker 1: firearms brand is not going to go well for you.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so now Hitler, so he's not into the

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Speaker 1: occult at all. He's not a big fan of Christianity either.

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Speaker 1: He felt it was fundamentally Jewish because Jesus was Jewish,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, not an irrational point of view

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Speaker 1: within the logic of being a Nazi, and he worried

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Speaker 1: weaken the German people. But he also respected Christianity for

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Speaker 1: its ability to inculcate good values in the German people,

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Speaker 1: and the primary good value it inculcated was making lots

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Speaker 1: of babies. Because most Germans were Catholic, and Catholics aren't

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Speaker 1: big fans of condoms. I'm not sure if you're aware

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Speaker 1: of that.

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Speaker 3: Ummm no, I know. I wouldn't have MS if it

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Speaker 3: weren't for this.

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Speaker 1: Attitude, none of us would. Now. Hitler himself was a

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Speaker 1: baptized Roman Catholic all his life. He probably didn't really

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Speaker 1: believe much of anything other than that that Hitler would

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Speaker 1: a cool dude, but he felt it was important to

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Speaker 1: maintain this image.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: There were some among his followers thought it was Nazism's

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Speaker 1: destiny to become the new Great German religion, but Hitler

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Speaker 1: himself pushed back against this, insisting in mind kompt that

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Speaker 1: national socialism quote is not a religious reform, but a

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Speaker 1: political reorganization of the German people. He believed quote it

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Speaker 1: is criminal to try to destroy the accepted faith of

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Speaker 1: the people as long as there is nothing to replace it.

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Speaker 1: And it is possible that given enough time, Hitler would

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Speaker 1: have tried to replace Christianity with something else, but he

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Speaker 1: never attempted to do so. And as far as we know,

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Speaker 1: the supernatural as it's generally known, played very little role

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Speaker 1: in the Nazi regime. But and here's where the real

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Speaker 1: episode starts. In the decades since Hitler shot himself in

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Speaker 1: that bunker in nineteen forty five, Nazism has changed quite

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Speaker 1: a lot. The actual political and historic beliefs of the

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Speaker 1: original Nazis and of Hitler himself have been twisted and

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Speaker 1: shifted into something even weirder. It would be too much

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Speaker 1: to say that this new form of Nazism is more

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Speaker 1: dangerous than the original, given the tens of millions people

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Speaker 1: who died from the original Nazism, but it's probably accurate

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Speaker 1: to say that the fact that Nazism has mutated into

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Speaker 1: what we call esoteric Hitlerism has made it better able

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Speaker 1: to survive in the era of the Internet. Now, Esoteric

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Speaker 1: Hitlerism is a term used to refer to a number

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Speaker 1: of different strains of post war Nazi thought that put

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Speaker 1: a bizarre religious and occult spin on Nazi racial theories

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Speaker 1: and on Hitler himself, often seeing the man as essentially

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Speaker 1: the avatar of a god. Four Chan and eight Chan

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Speaker 1: are in the modern age, two of the most prolific

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Speaker 1: vectors for the spread of this brand of nonsense. Sure,

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Speaker 1: there are strains of it in Brenton Terrence Manifesto, and

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Speaker 1: in Anders Brevik's manifesto. And today we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: woman who invented all of this, the single person who

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Speaker 1: became the living link between the Nazism that tried and

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Speaker 1: failed to conquer Europe and the modern Nazi movement that

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Speaker 1: spawns mass shootings and attempted mass shootings on a monthly basis. Today.

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Speaker 1: Her name was Savitri Devi and she was a huge

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Speaker 1: piece of shit.

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Speaker 3: This is someone's feminism somewhere. Yeah, this is some piece

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Speaker 3: of shit's feminism.

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Speaker 1: She is a feminist icon.

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Speaker 3: Feministic feminism is the law.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: This is a woman who spent her whole life living

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Speaker 1: alone with a pile of cats and changing Nazism forever.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well what if she just did the first half?

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Speaker 2: You know that she was not willing to do just

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Speaker 2: the first She was like, okay, so I'm in a

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Speaker 2: pile of cats. That's great, what else could I do?

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Speaker 3: And that was her second idea. That's embarrassed, that was.

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Speaker 1: Her second idea. As she does start first focused on

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Speaker 1: the cats and then moves straight to Nazism though, it's remarkable. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So she was born Maximiani Portas on September thirtieth, nineteen

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Speaker 1: oh five in Lyon, France. Her mother, Julia, came from Cornwall,

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Speaker 1: the town with the thirty sixth dumbest name in all

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Speaker 1: of England. Her father's ancestry was a mi longe of

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Speaker 1: various Mediterranean peoples without access to birth control. He was

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Speaker 1: mostly at Italian in Greek. Although young Maximiani was born

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Speaker 1: a French citizen, she latched onto her father's Greek ancestry

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Speaker 1: from the very beginning. Some of this had to do

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Speaker 1: with the fact that Leon had a large and active

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Speaker 1: Greek expat community, and her dad was a prominent member

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Speaker 1: of it. She also nursed an early fascination with Roman history.

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Speaker 1: Her name Maximiani was actually just the female form of Maximian,

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Speaker 1: the proper first name of the emperor Marcus Aurelius. So's

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Speaker 1: a she's a big old nerd. I really have to

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Speaker 1: emphasize what a nerd she is.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've met versions of this girl in

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Speaker 2: like sophomore English classes and they're like, actually something something,

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Speaker 2: and you're like stop at stop at plea is just

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Speaker 2: like finish reading.

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Speaker 3: Their eyes were watching God, Let's move on.

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Speaker 1: I was the male version of this for a while.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I took three years of Latin because I

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Speaker 1: was such a Roman history nerd.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Robert, some of us took five years of Latin.

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Speaker 3: And do we remember a fucking thing?

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Speaker 1: Of course, no, no, not a goddamn word.

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Speaker 3: Like when I was in high school, like in junior high.

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Speaker 2: In high school, if you were like in the quote

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Speaker 2: unquote advanced classes, they would be like, let's teach them

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Speaker 2: a language they can't use so stupid, god.

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Speaker 1: Damn totally useless term. Did you have to use me?

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Speaker 2: That's one of those did you have to use that

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Speaker 2: textbook that was about the the Romani family?

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Speaker 3: Did you do Eka Romani?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no, man, I was like fucking Kills and Quintus.

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Speaker 1: I remember those names. They were like the fucking there.

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Speaker 1: It was like a bunch of Pompeii people who all

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Speaker 1: die at the end of the book. Everyone died at

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Speaker 1: the end of our textbook.

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Speaker 2: Was it like we we have the We had the

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Speaker 2: Cornelia family. It was like Cornelia and her brother Marcus,

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Speaker 2: and then they had a friend named Sextus.

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Speaker 1: Who knows, they sound like fucking losers, they weren't they?

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Speaker 2: For me, there, your your family sounds way better because

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Speaker 2: our family there was like three books in total, and

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Speaker 2: the whole second book, So like all of eighth and

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Speaker 2: ninth grade, they're just stuck in a ditch. They're like

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Speaker 2: in a ditch. Their characters in a ditch. They can't

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Speaker 2: get out. They're staying at an inn. The innkeeper's yelling

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Speaker 2: at them. They're stuck in a dick. They're stuck in

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Speaker 2: a ditch for a whole month, and then they go

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Speaker 2: to Rome and and everything is fine.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a nightmare. Second well, yeah, nightmare, so horrible.

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Speaker 1: Maximiani would have gotten a lot. Well, no, she wouldn't have.

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Speaker 1: She would have been the most annoying person in our

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Speaker 1: Latin class. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't like when people are in the Latin class

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Speaker 3: and they're also like into it. I'm like, we should learn.

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Speaker 1: You didn't have to learn to pronounce anything, right, You

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Speaker 1: never had to speak because there was a dead.

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Speaker 3: Reason to speak it.

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Speaker 1: Well, no one knows either, like you've got ecclesiastical Latin,

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Speaker 1: but there's no way to know if it was exactly

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Speaker 1: the same as what the Romans spoke. So we just

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Speaker 1: didn't give a shit. It was great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Teacher ms Cook would come and she would what

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Speaker 2: was the thing she would say, she was like, okay,

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Speaker 2: dysipuarly at this dy skipuli. Like she'd be like, hello, students,

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Speaker 2: let's learn Jewela Caesar, and then we would just talk

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Speaker 2: about how the family was stuck in the ditch all day.

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Speaker 1: All day horrible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, Maximiani spent her young life stuck in that ditch,

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Speaker 1: and that ditch was called being a huge nerd for

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Speaker 1: Mediterranean classical civilizations. She was a strong willed child, which

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Speaker 1: here is a synonym for unspeakably arrogant and a giant

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Speaker 1: pain in the ass. She felt strongly about just about everything,

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Speaker 1: children and everything. Yeah. Strong willed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: She was known to be utterly immovable once she'd latched

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Speaker 1: onto an idea. One strong opinion she developed early was

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Speaker 1: that British people were terrible, which is not inaccurate. She

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Speaker 1: hated her mother's English friends and the way they prattled

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Speaker 1: on about illnesses and their dying families.

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Speaker 3: Harsh.

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Speaker 1: God, that's so harsh.

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Speaker 3: I wish my family wasn't dying, and she's like.

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Speaker 1: Shut up, Jesus Christ, Yeah, we get it. She didn't

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Speaker 1: like French people very much much either, and the particular

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Speaker 1: cause for her hatred of the French was the French Revolution.

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Speaker 1: She read about it as a little girl in school

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Speaker 1: and was instantly furious. The Republican ideals of equality, liberty,

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Speaker 1: and fraternity disgusted her. She was punished at school for

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Speaker 1: making an obscene gesture at a plaque of the Declaration

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Speaker 1: of the Rights of Man. And again, she's like eight

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Speaker 1: or nine. Yeah, she's like a fucking little kid at

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Speaker 1: this point.

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Speaker 3: That is that is so funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The Declaration of the Rights of Man, which small child

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Speaker 1: Savitri Devi flipped off, includes such controversial takes as people

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Speaker 1: are innocent until proven guilty, people have the right to liberty, property, security,

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Speaker 1: and resistance to oppression. And people should be able to

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Speaker 1: speak and write with freedom. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Some real hot sh run out there. Yeah, geez, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so she was like born.

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Speaker 1: To be harmful, she was born to be a fascist.

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Speaker 1: As a small child, she's like, people aren't equal? What

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Speaker 1: is this bullshit?

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Speaker 2: That's so the little flipping off to human rights? You

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Speaker 2: do you do feel like we should have known, we

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Speaker 2: should have known.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love flipping off old documents too, But

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Speaker 1: to me, it's the Magna carta and the Magna Carta

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Speaker 1: knows why.

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Speaker 3: The Magna Carta knows what she did.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the Magna Carta shakes in her boots whenever

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Speaker 2: you come walk.

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Speaker 1: The Magna Carta is a messy bitch, and I have

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Speaker 1: no time for it.

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Speaker 2: That okay, Robert, I can't believe you just called a

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Speaker 2: female document a.

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Speaker 1: Bitch a messy.

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Speaker 3: You're setting a bad example, Robert.

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Speaker 1: Feminism is document misogyny.

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Speaker 3: She's she's literally shaking right now. She's here.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, she's in the room with you. You didn't

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Speaker 1: tell me the Magna Carta was in the room today.

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Speaker 3: She's literally she drove me here.

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Speaker 1: Horrible.

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Speaker 3: She's, well, I don't want a driver's license. I don't

399
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Speaker 3: know what you want.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much further to take this bit, Jamie,

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00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,920
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna Later in life, in nineteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 1: Savitri Devi told an interviewer a beautiful girl is not

403
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Speaker 1: equal to an ugly girl. So she remained pretty consistent

404
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,919
Speaker 1: about her belief in the fundamental inequality of human beings

405
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Speaker 1: like her whole life.

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Speaker 3: And she's getting really granular about it too.

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00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, she's granular about fucking everything. Her chief

408
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: motivating factor in her childhood, I have to say was

409
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: completely understandable. She felt a deep, powerful sense of rage

410
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: at the abuse of animals by human beings. Okay, starting

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00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 1: at age five. Yeah, starting at age five, she began

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00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: expressing to her parents concern at the abuse of animals

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00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 1: she witnessed in a daily basis. She was horrified by circuses,

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Speaker 1: the fur trade, and the eating of meat. While still

415
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Speaker 1: in elementary school, she became a committed vegetarian and eventually

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Speaker 1: a vegan. Maximiani Portos was particularly disgusted by the abuse

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Speaker 1: of cats by peasants on the French countryside. Her only

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00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 1: real biographer, Nicholas Gudrich Clark, claims this quote disgusted her

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Speaker 1: and turned her against mannedkind. And since most people listening

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Speaker 1: probably don't know anything about the history of cat torture

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Speaker 1: in Europe, I didn't know anything about the history of

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Speaker 1: cat torture in Europe. I'm gonna have to talk about

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Speaker 1: that now for a little while, Jamie.

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Speaker 3: Like specific to this region, cat torture.

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00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 1: All of Europe, really, but like, yeah, specifically to France.

426
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: Like the French fucking hate cats. Okay, they are assholes

427
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: about cats. Yeah, Today we rightly revere cats as our

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00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 1: moral and intellectual superiors, and we've organized our society around

429
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 1: pleasing them. This is right and good, But cats have

430
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Speaker 1: not always been beloved in the West. Well, they are

431
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 1: considered basically holy in Islam. They're like ritually clean, Like

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Speaker 1: you can have them in mosques and stuff all over

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Speaker 1: the place. You have to wash your hands after touching

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Speaker 1: them if you're gonna go pray. There's a long Christian

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00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: tradition of seeing cats as demonic entities, and to be fair,

436
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,479
Speaker 1: Islam is kind of shitty on the subject of dogs.

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Speaker 1: So I guess whatever of the big religions you pick,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be terrible to one of the good animals.

439
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Yeah, it's weird now. In the

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Speaker 1: fifteenth century, Edward, Duke of York, announced that if the

441
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: devil inhabited any living animal, it was the cat, and

442
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: for centuries all around Europe, good Christians tortured and murdered

443
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: cats for almost no reason. In Yepra, Belgium, they held

444
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: an event called Cat and Stoate the Festival of Cats,

445
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: which sounds awesome but actually just involved drunken townsfolk throwing

446
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: cats from the top of the church on the hard

447
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: cobblestones and then lighting them on fire.

448
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, I hate Okay, it's always really frustrating when

449
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: you hear a story about the underclass and it's like

450
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: you're playing to stereotypes about the underclass.

451
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah on the pavement, Yeah yeah, I mean I'm gonna

452
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: be honest. I bet the rich people got to go

453
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: up first and throw the nicest.

454
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 3: Cats just to set a good yeah.

455
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: And then and then they would privately be throwing cats

456
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 2: at hard marble floors as well.

457
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, my god, it's horrible. And cat and stoat still

458
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: takes place in Yupra every May, but they use stuffed

459
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: animals now, which just stop, just just stop. It's not

460
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 1: a good tradition.

461
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: It would be so easy to not do it. It

462
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 3: would be so easy. Do they do Do they eat

463
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 3: the cat?

464
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: Like? Do they?

465
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 3: Or is it just we're just killing the cats?

466
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: Not that that makes a no, No, they're just murdering

467
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: cats for no good reason. Okay, it's fun. That is

468
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 1: worse and people are horrible, But Jamie, you know who

469
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 1: doesn't randomly torture cats in Belgium? Your sponsors exactly right

470
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: now that Sophie vets every sponsor to make sure they

471
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 1: do not torture cats in Belgium.

472
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 3: Yes, is that that's true? That's is a lie, Robert.

473
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, it is a small country, so the vetting's

474
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: pretty easy. Like you'll notice, I did not say, for example, Canada. No,

475
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: you certainly did. No, I did not.

476
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: Canada just got canceled before our very eyes product.

477
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: We're back.

478
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

479
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: Those were good ads, good Jamie, good products. After all

480
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: those good ads, are you ready to hear more about

481
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: the systematic torture of cats by generations of Europeans.

482
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: I just got a cat, Robert, This is not fair.

483
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 1: I love cats. Oh my god.

484
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: Shout out, Flee, shout out to flee my cat.

485
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: He's got a big neck.

486
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: He's got a big neck.

487
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: Free shout out to Roach, one of the side characters

488
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: in uh the first version of the movie with Keanu Reeves,

489
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: where some of the people are bank robbers but they

490
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: also surfers. Oh oh oh, oh, oh oh.

491
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: You're talking about the Keanu Reeves surfing movie with with Yes,

492
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: we've covered it on specle cast.

493
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: Yes. Roach. Roach is the one who bleeds out in

494
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: a plane point break. He's a good character.

495
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 3: We're talking we're talking about point break.

496
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: Yes, point break, that's the movie a classic. Yes. Now,

497
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: in France there was a centuries old tradition of burning

498
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: hundreds of cats to death and gigantic bonfires. Louis the

499
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: sixteenth even famously lit Paris's catfire in sixteen forty eight.

500
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 3: Uh, the king is such a catfire?

501
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, who else, Jamie, who else?

502
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 3: This is just all news to me.

503
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: Just I just yes, so news to me too. I Okay, I'm.

504
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: Glad that this wasn't like common knowledge. I would be

505
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 2: horrified if I just didn't. You know, it've been burning cats, Okay, I.

506
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't surprise like obviously, like you have to

507
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: assume earlier times people are more callous to cats and

508
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: dogs because them being like what they are now is

509
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: kind of a more recent development because we have all

510
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: these extra resources. But I didn't realize it was this

511
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: like cruel.

512
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 3: This is a lot. Yeah, king is sitting the catfire.

513
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 3: That's like bad writing.

514
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the king would Yeah. So brulais lechats, which

515
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: I am not going to pronounce more correctly than that,

516
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 1: because it's a horrible thing. And fuck fuck France, as

517
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: it was called varied in a number of different ways.

518
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes it was just massive bonfires where living cats were

519
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 1: tied together in like huge pires. Sometimes living cats were

520
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: tied above small fires on like a spit and then

521
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: roasted to death. Sometimes cats were set in wooden cages

522
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: and burnt to death. In some towns, people known as

523
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: quremauds cat chasers would soak cats and fuel light them

524
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: on fire and chase them through town to the amusement

525
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: of citizens.

526
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 3: Peoples are so upset all the time.

527
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: I know, right, damn they're an oppressed species.

528
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: Yes they are.

529
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would be pissed.

530
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: We you should be. I'm pissed, I am. The charred

531
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: remains of these tortured cats were taken home as good

532
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: luck charms by people. In seventeen thirty, as revolutionary sentiment

533
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: simmered and bubbled throughout French society, two Parisian apprentice printers

534
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: got fed up with the masters and abducted their cats.

535
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: They staged a massive public trial, the Great Cat Massacre,

536
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: as it's become known to history. Now, this was tied

537
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: more towards issues of class hatred than hatred of cats.

538
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: But the cats wound up actually like.

539
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: Escape cats for the whole situation exactly, and that's also

540
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: the worst way to die as as a symbol for

541
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: something that has nothing to do with you.

542
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, those cats have no understanding of class theory.

543
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: It's took at someone and then they're like, well, this

544
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: has something to do with Like my opinion on the

545
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: new Taylor Swift record has nothing to do with Jamie.

546
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 3: But I killed her as to send a message.

547
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: It would be like if one group of aliens came

548
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: to Earth and murdered you for something they knew human

549
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: beings were going to do one hundred years in the future,

550
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: something you're completely incapable of understanding or knowing about. Yeah,

551
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: like just yeah, this, like it's just wild. But these

552
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: apprentices felt their masters treated the family cats better than

553
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: their workers, and because they couldn't quite you know, murder

554
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: their bosses, they got a crowd together and they captured

555
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of rich people's cats, and then they put

556
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: them on trial and sentenced them to be hung until dead.

557
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: And they hung just a fuckload of cats to death.

558
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: That is, they made like the owners of the cat's watch.

559
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: It was super fucked up.

560
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 3: I don't know what to do right now.

561
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: Well, Eva, what you can do right now is you

562
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: can get a little bit into the head of a

563
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: sensitive young soul like Maximiani Portas, because a lot of

564
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: this stuff was still going on in France. It wasn't

565
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: at its worst, but like cat torture and burning was

566
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: still happening in the countryside. And she sees this as

567
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: a little girl and is like, this is part of

568
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: why she hates those like, you know, French revolutionary and

569
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: I'll use a freedom and equality is She's like, well,

570
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: clearly this is all bullshit. Look at what they're doing

571
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: to these animals, Like where's their you know, equality and

572
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: freedom and like like she that's kind of like where

573
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: she comes at this from, right, Yeah. Yeah, So she's

574
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: deep sympathetic to animals and particularly cats, and basically incapable

575
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: of being sympathetic to human beings. And yeah, an interesting story.

576
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to be interested in how she galaxy brains

577
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: being sympathetic towards the plight of brutally murdered cats to

578
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: becoming a fascist.

579
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: But you know fascist common thing for fascists to be

580
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: honestism well, you know, not committing cat murders, but like

581
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: hating people because of how garbage they are, and thinking

582
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: fascism is the only way to fix it, because people

583
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: just can't be allowed to live on their own.

584
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: Okay, I need to I thought you were saying cat

585
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,479
Speaker 2: specific reasons. I'm like, well, this is a true education.

586
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Maximiani was very good in school. She was

587
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: a bright student. She read and wrote constantly, and her

588
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: very favorite writer was a nineteenth century French poet named

589
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: Charles Leconte Delile. And here's how Savitri's biographer describes Lacante

590
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: Delile's work in the book Hitler's Priestess, which is really

591
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: the only decent biography of Savitri. Devi quote le Comte

592
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: Delile's own tragic view of the universe. His romantic colors

593
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: were always tinged with somber pessimism, strongly appealed to Maximiane.

594
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: He regarded all religious symbols as fragments of a divine truth,

595
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: but the profusion of faiths over time convinced him of

596
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: the relative value and ultimate vanity of every doctrine. Beset

597
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: by a sense of cosmic futility, Lecante Delile rejected Christianity

598
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: and evoked the stoical heroism of barbarian and exotic peoples.

599
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: In his famous poem Psycho poems Barbaras. He was also

600
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: powerfully attracted to Hinduism following the translation of its sacred

601
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: texts in the eighteen forties. Maximiani felt a profound sympathy

602
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: with La Comte Delile's view of life's fragility, the vanity

603
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: of existence, and the illusion of the world. His romantic

604
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: poems about the ancient Egyptians, the Scandinavians, the Celts and Hindus,

605
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: their proud paganism and heroic action yet final resignation in

606
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: the face of death and oblivion confirmed her own version

607
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: to Christianity and helped her form her own fatalistic worldview.

608
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: So Goths didn't exist in the early twentieth century, but

609
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: Maximiani's clearly that.

610
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: She is a proto goth It's again, it's just like,

611
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: if there had been a hot topic for her to,

612
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, be a lot, a lot could have been avoided.

613
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: Imagine how many hot topic employees were saved by that.

614
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: Business, Yeah, a lot of them. Imagine how many fascists

615
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: we avoided by, for example, the existence of Kylo Rin

616
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: fan fiction there.

617
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: Honestly, honestly, it's wow, that actually hit for me.

618
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: Wow, that hit that people. People need an outlet, you know,

619
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: and if you don't, this is what happens.

620
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: Right, You're just like, if you can make it horny

621
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: and palatable, you're going to.

622
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: Prevent something bad. This was a a young girl who

623
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: desperately needed to be distracted, and nothing distracted her. And that, right,

624
00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: it was a problem.

625
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: Laye out a pretty clear track for you to really,

626
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I just, yeah, send me back in time

627
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: with a Jack Skellington hoodie for this woman.

628
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that would have solved so many problems.

629
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: I want to create some others.

630
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: I mean, she still would have been a deeply annoying person,

631
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: but like I had a Jack Skellington hoodie.

632
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: But also I had never seen the movie. I was

633
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 3: a total poser.

634
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's going to get you canceled harder than

635
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: anything else today.

636
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 3: And then I saw the movie and guess what, I

637
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: didn't like it very much.

638
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: I watched it.

639
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: It's fine, it's fine, Well, actually I don't. I think

640
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 3: it's maybe not so good. Beautiful animation though anyways.

641
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you get to judge it for

642
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: its time, do I. Anyways, it was no For example,

643
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: the Little Toaster, I don't know aprils, Yeah, yeah, it's up. No, no,

644
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: it didn't fuck kids up.

645
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: I loved the pray.

646
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: Little Toaster damaged me forever.

647
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: Really, that's why he But he was so brave, Robert,

648
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: he was so brave.

649
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: Movie fucked me.

650
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 3: That's why you throw bagels, right, Robert, I don't know.

651
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: It's why I'm scared of fucking radiators.

652
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: You've got to do some exposure therapy for you with

653
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: a brave little toaster. That's why he doesn't toast his bagels.

654
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: He only throws them. That's embarrassing. I mean, that's like

655
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: the thing. Tragic, tragic. Imagine the path we could have avoided.

656
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: I know. Maximiani Portis was very political as a young girl.

657
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: When World War One started in nineteen fourteen, she at

658
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: nine years old, knew very clearly that she did not

659
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: trust the Entente powers, so like England, France, you know, Russia.

660
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: Some of this likely came from the fact that Greece's

661
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: King Constantine was very pro German and refused to get

662
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: into the war on the side of either the entent

663
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: or the Central Powers. But the King of Greece's Prime minister,

664
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: a guy named Venizelos, which I'm probably mispronouncing disagreed with

665
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: the king. He was very pro British and supported Greece

666
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: getting into the war. The two fought over this for

667
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: years until in nineteen sixteen a group of pro Venizelos

668
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: army officers staged a coup against the king. There were

669
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: rumors that the Untaunted back this, and those rumors seemed

670
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: credible in light of the fact that French and British

671
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: troops landed in Salonica and Athens in nineteen fifteen and

672
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: sixteen to force Greek compliance in their demands from military

673
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: access to the Macedonian Front so they could better fight

674
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: Austria Hungary. That's a lot a history there, but basically,

675
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: she's very pro Greece and wants Grecee to stay out

676
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: of the war because she also likes Germany, hates the English,

677
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: hates the French, and she's pissed off because England and

678
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: France back this prime minister who wants Greece to get

679
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: into the war, and they also fuck with Greek sovereignty

680
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: and stuff. She gets really angry over all.

681
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: And how old is she at this point?

682
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: Where are we nine, ten eleven years old? The end

683
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixteen, when.

684
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: They imagine, did you know what was going on in

685
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 3: the world when you were nine or ten years old? Like,

686
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: how aware were you?

687
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: I was pretty I mean nine eleven happened when I

688
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: was like twelve, and that was definitely like the start

689
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: of me getting political. I guess, yeah, I was in

690
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: World War One. Yeah, you know. World War One's that

691
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 1: level of thing, right where like even a little kid

692
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: is kind of like, you're going to pay attention to

693
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: that shit. It's kind of a big deal.

694
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 3: You don't have a fully formed opinion, but you'll know

695
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: what's going on.

696
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: You'll know what's going I guess.

697
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: I'm just like, it would be so bizarre to me

698
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: if someone was like Jamie's beliefs at eight years old,

699
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 2: was nine to eleven?

700
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 3: Was school got out early that day?

701
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: And this is where I should note that this is

702
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: going to be an imperfect episode in terms of that

703
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: sort of thing, because our main source on this is

704
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: Hitler's Priestess, which is a biography that's fairly decent but

705
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: also flawed because it's mainly based on Savitri Devi's own

706
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: biographical writings of her recollections of her own life. Like

707
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: there's just not a lot of information there's not a

708
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: lot of weren't a lot of people to go back

709
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: to and like talk to about her and as a

710
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: child and stuff who were still alive when she became relevant. Oh,

711
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: if I think it was written in ninety.

712
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: Eight, if I could write about like what I thought

713
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: I thought at eight years old, I'd be like, Jamie

714
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: was a brilliant genius who had opinions on foreign policy.

715
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: Okay, got it well. But that said, given the I

716
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: don't think we shouldn't discard all of this because if

717
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: you look at the thrust of her life, she does

718
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: live the life of someone who's always been very political.

719
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: I mean, she's sure, yeah, exactly, that's a vibe. So yeah,

720
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: Venizelos and his men took over part of Greece with

721
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: the backing of Britain and France, and those two countries

722
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: were happy to recognize his government.

723
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: Well.

724
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: They carried out a brutal ten month blockade of the

725
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: Greek provinces that stayed loyal to the king, and young

726
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: Maximiani watched all this as she grew into an adolescent girl.

727
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: Some of her earliest memories were news reports of protests

728
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: from Athens of Whyalist crowds railing against the entent and

729
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: Maximiani sided with them and can say the Aton's treatment

730
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: of Greece to be basically criminal. Her disgust was reinforced

731
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: after the war. In the wake of the Central powers defeat,

732
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,479
Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire was broken up and Greece was given

733
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: control in the Versailles Treaty of a city called Smyrna

734
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: now Smyrna is a city on the Aegean coast of Anatolia,

735
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: which is modern day Turkey. It was the center of

736
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: a nearly three thousand year old Greek community that lived

737
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: on the coasts of Anatolia. Greece, with some justification, thought

738
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: that a lot of Anatolia ought to be part of

739
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: Greece because it was culturally and historically Greece and the

740
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: newly created nation of Turkey did not agree. So, with

741
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: the backing of the Versailles Treaty, Greece invaded Smyrna in

742
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen to make good on the promises that had

743
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: been made to them by the Entente, and the fighting

744
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: was a disaster from the beginning. The Ottoman Empire had

745
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: been defeated in the war technically, but on the ground

746
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: and actual battles. Their soldiers had performed pretty well. They'd

747
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: fought off a big invasion at Gallipoli. The birth of

748
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: the Turkish nation after the fall of the Ottoman Empire

749
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: was met with a swelling of nationalist fervor and Anatolia,

750
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: and this helped to spawn a powerful insurgent Turkish movement

751
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: dedicated to defeating the Greek invasion. So a truce was

752
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: reached in nineteen twenty, but like many recent truces in

753
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: Turkish military history, it was not a real truce, and

754
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: around the same time King Constantine was restored to the

755
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: Greek throne. This turn the remaining great powers of Europe

756
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: against Greece, and even though they promised Greece Smyrna and

757
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: the Versailles Treaty in nineteen twenty one, they basically like

758
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: were like fuck that shit and their support.

759
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: Do we know where the Greeks at this time stood

760
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: on cats?

761
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, they're closer to the Middle East. So

762
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess more pro cat.

763
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: More pro cat, Okay, Okay, So okay, yeah, I think that.

764
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, the further in that direction, you get more pro cat,

765
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 1: less pro dog. You know, I think that's generally fair

766
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: so western. They've got a lot of dogs, Yeah.

767
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 3: The dog.

768
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: Maybe they just lit cats and on fire. I don't know.

769
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: I did not do that research.

770
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: Okay, these are the questions I have Robert, take em

771
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 3: or leave them.

772
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: So the French and Italian governments like betray Greece first,

773
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: and they sign agreements with the Turkish leader Mustafa Camal

774
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: and to ignore the promises they'd made in the Verse

775
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: I Treaty to Greece. Britain held out the longest, but

776
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: when Greece launched an offensive in Anatolia and March of

777
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, all of the allies suddenly adopted a

778
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: policy of neutrality. Britain banned for their arm sales to Greece, well,

779
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: France was happy to allow its weapons makers to sell

780
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: straight to Turkey. The whole effort to incorporate the Greek

781
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: regions of Anatolia into the Greek nation ended in disaster

782
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: and military defeat. In nineteen twenty two, Greek forces fled

783
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: Asia Minor, and the Turkish army conducted a campaign of

784
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: extermination and ethnic cleansing on their Aegean coast. They massacred

785
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: some thirty thousand Christians, a mix of Greeks, Armenians and

786
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: Franks in order to ensure no Greek independence movement would

787
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: ever crop up on their coast. Again. Awesome, the Smyrna debacle. Yeah,

788
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: this is why there's no real Greek community in Anatota anymore,

789
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: not like there was for three thousand years prior. This

790
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: is like what wipes out that community. Okay, yeah, so

791
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: you can see why a Greek nationalist like Maximiani Portas,

792
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: who is like fifteen sixteen years old then and like

793
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: really actually starting to like understand the world, is furious

794
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: about all this, and it breeds in her a powerful

795
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: hatred of the Entente powers, particularly of France and of England.

796
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: And she basically felt that like all these fancy words

797
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: they had about liberty and democracy were bullshit when they

798
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,479
Speaker 1: couldn't even hold the basic promises and protect the lives

799
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: of tens of thousands of innocent Greek civilians, which is

800
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: a fair point, very valid. Yes, yeah, yeah, Now I'm

801
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: not trying to like ignore the Turkish point of view

802
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: in this too, like Greece is not in the right

803
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: here as a country either, like everybody's in the wrong.

804
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: Although Turkey massacres thirty thousand people. So I'm gonna say,

805
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 1: maybe they're more in the wrong. But this is complicated. Yeah,

806
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: but this this is sort of how Maximiani is very

807
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: much on the side of Greece is fucked over. And

808
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: this is an entirely like a crime committed by the

809
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: Entente powers against Greece. Simply it sets up the rest

810
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: of her life in a lot of ways. Okay, So

811
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: other influences on her developing mind were the sight of

812
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: French crowds and Lyon cheering uproariously at the brutal terms

813
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: of the Treaty of Versailles when they were announced. She

814
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: was horrified when the French government stationed black Synegalese troops

815
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: to occupy the Rure, Germany's industrial heartland. Now, this is

816
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: one of those moves by France that engendered a whole

817
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: shitload of racism in Central Europe. It was a big

818
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: influence on a lot of early Nazi thinkers too. And

819
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: obviously black soldiers aren't he worse than white ones. But

820
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: as civilians living under military occupation, you're going to hate

821
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: whatever foreign soldiers occupy your country. And if those soldiers

822
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: are the only black people we've ever met, it wasn't

823
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: a great move on France's behalf Jesus Christ. Yeah, so

824
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: I'm trying to set up all of like this is

825
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: like the shit that like is forming. She's twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,

826
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: is all this is going on like formative fucking years.

827
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 3: Yeah.

828
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. So she hates France, she hates England, she hates

829
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: black people, she hates Turkish people. She's she loves a

830
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: lot more hate. She loves cats. This is the consistence one. Yeah, yeah, Jesus.

831
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty three, a freshly graduated Maximiani Portos left

832
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: France to attend college in Greece. She was just on

833
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: the edge of eighteen and furious with the status quo

834
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: in Europe, without any real clear idea of how she

835
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: thought things ought to be. Instead, she did, however, know

836
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: that she was obsessed with Hellenism, which is like ancient

837
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: Greek culture.

838
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 3: She's a dork.

839
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a big fucking joy.

840
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 3: She's like wait, Helen of Troy Abstin.

841
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god. She would not shut up about the elliot.

842
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 3: She was a fucking you know, I've read multiple translations

843
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 3: and you're like, can you not? OK?

844
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 1: She has strong and profoundly thirsty opinions on Achilles.

845
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: She's like ranked gods and goddesses hot to that.

846
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: If she'd seen the actual movie Troy that came out

847
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: like a decade ago, she would have been furious, because

848
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: there's no way Brad Pitt was as hot as the

849
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: Achilles in her mind.

850
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: Beautiful.

851
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, she believed the old Greeks had been quote a

852
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: civilization of iron, rooted in truth, a civilization with all

853
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: the virtues of the ancient world, none of its weaknesses,

854
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: and all the technical achievements of the modern age, with

855
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: that modern hypocrisy, pettiness, and moral squalor. Now this is,

856
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,919
Speaker 1: of course, wildly inaccurate. The ancient Greeks were like, unbelievably

857
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: fucked up. They also did a lot of cool shit, obviously,

858
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: like every other ancient bee. That's all ancient people do,

859
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: a lot of cool shit. All Aztec's amazing shit, horribly

860
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: fucked up, ancient Romans amazing shit, Han Chinese ancient amazing shit,

861
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: horribly for everybody. Yeah, in the Greek specific case, they

862
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: fucked a bunch of little kids. They repeatedly put narcissistic

863
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 1: idiots in charge of their city states. They made numerous

864
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: blunders that ensured their period of military and economic might

865
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: was short lived, and they also created some of the

866
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: most influential philosophy in fiction and art that has ever

867
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: been made in the history of the human race. Complicated people,

868
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: Maximiani does not get a complex picture of ancient Greece.

869
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: It's just the good shit. Yeah, yeah, good lord, you

870
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: might say, like, I don't know, I want to say,

871
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: her understanding of Greek history was not deep. It was

872
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: certainly incomplete. That said pretty much only like, the only

873
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: thing Europeans would write about the ancient Greeks in that

874
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: period was wildly positive. You weren't going to get like

875
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: critical like commentary on, for example, Pederasti and ancient Greece

876
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: in fucking nineteen twenty, Like, you're just not going to

877
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: read that. Yeah, So, her love of Greece was mostly

878
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: focused on obsessing over their incredible art and fantasizing about

879
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: the idealized culture that she eve it existed.

880
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 3: There, right.

881
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 2: I mean this, I mean we as children all read

882
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: revisionist history about horrifying cultures.

883
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with ancient Rome for a lot of

884
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 1: the same reasons.

885
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: Of course, because you were just like, oh, it seems

886
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: like they only to dope stuff and more cool outfits.

887
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,959
Speaker 1: Well, I will say I was kind of a fucked

888
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: up kid, so when I learned about like all of

889
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: the fucking crucifixions and shit, I was kind of like, hell, yeah,

890
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: you're so metal. I mean it is pretty fucking metal.

891
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 3: You're so fucking metal.

892
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: We'll talk about what they did to Spartacus and his

893
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: friends one of these days, but it's fucking one of

894
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: like the biggest mic drop moments in the history of

895
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: torturing people to death with wood. I think that's fair

896
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: to say.

897
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: Thrilled to have such a hyper specific.

898
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: So she moves to Greece. She's super happy for a while.

899
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: Obviously best place in the world for this girl is

900
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: fucking Grece at this point in time, and the time

901
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: she spent discovering the wonders of Athens, which rules coincided

902
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: with some very important goings on in Germany. And I'm

903
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: going to quote again from the book Hitler's Priestess. Well

904
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: years later she would recall that she spent such a

905
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: sunlit afternoon upon the Acropolis on ninth October nineteen twenty three,

906
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: the fateful day of Hitler's push when he and his

907
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: followers had attempted a coup against the Bavarian government and

908
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: staged a march to the Feldehernhall in the center of Munich.

909
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 1: The police successfully broke up the march, and sixteen martyrs

910
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: of the early Nazi movement fell beneath the hail of bullets.

911
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: When details of the incident were published in the world

912
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: press the following day, there was some discussion over lunch

913
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: at the International Home Hostel, which is where she was

914
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: crashing at the time. Maximiani admits that she did not

915
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: yet connect Hitler with her own dream of a new

916
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: racial order based on her view of classical Greek antiquity. However,

917
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: she strongly sympathized with him as an enemy of the

918
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 1: Allies on account of his contempt for the Versailles Treaty,

919
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: and saw a parallel between his nationalist idea of one

920
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: state for all Germans and the Megali idea among the Greeks,

921
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: which is the idea that Greece should recoup its ancient

922
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 1: power and takeo for the places that had controlled back

923
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: in the day. Argument Yeah, she engaged in a heated

924
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: argument in defensive Hitler with the French managers of the hostel,

925
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: So arguing about Hitler with a hostel, No, we lost her,

926
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: she's been gone for a while. Yeah, but you know

927
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 1: who won't argue in support of Hitler with the French

928
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: hostel owner in Athens, Robert the products and services support

929
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: this podcasts.

930
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: And services would never ever heard us or do something wrong.

931
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 2: I've been saying it for years.

932
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: I have agreed for years.

933
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 3: Fingers crossed for a dig pill ad right after a Yeah,

934
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: what a great transition, both of you. Just wonderful work.

935
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: We're back. So it was during this first visit to

936
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: Greece that Maximiani Portos would have seen the symbol for

937
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: the first time that would come to define her life

938
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: and legacy. I am talking, of course, about the swastika.

939
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: Odds are good she would have encountered it for the

940
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: first time in the National Museum of Athens, which hosted

941
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: a huge amount of what were believed to be Trojan artifacts,

942
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: which had been uncovered by the pioneering and controversial archaeologist

943
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: Heinrich Schleimann. Now, Schleimann was not a professional archaeologist, which

944
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: is not weird for the time. Most of like the

945
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: archaeologists of this period are like gentlemen adventurers who I

946
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: mean get our nerds.

947
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: Basically the people in the people in like the Mummy

948
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: movies who are just wearing chakeys exact money, and people

949
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 2: in Tarzan.

950
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: That was the most accurate thing about the Mummy movie

951
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: other than the way mummies react to shotguns.

952
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 3: They're all named Clayton. Yeah.

953
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Shleimann Yeah. Throughout the mid eighteen hundreds had

954
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 1: been a very successful German arms merchant, trading raw materials

955
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: for the ingredients to make ammunition, and he'd nursed a

956
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: deep obsession with the iliat his entire life. In his

957
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: late middle age, he decided to take his fortune to

958
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: the Aegean and try to uncover the true locate of

959
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 1: the ancient city of Troy. Unlike pretty much any like

960
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: traditional archaeologist, Shlemann used the Iliad as a guide. He

961
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: thought this book was like basically essentially accurate, and he

962
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: followed the poem as if it had been a work

963
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: of serious historical scholarship, and shockingly enough, this kind of worked.

964
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: In eighteen seventy one, after three years of searching, Shlemann

965
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: found what was very likely to have been the site

966
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: of ancient Troy. His methods of digging it up were brutal.

967
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: He used crowbars and battering rams and destroyed countless thousands

968
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: of artifacts, including ironically, what a lot of archaeologists now

969
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: believe was the actual physical evidence of Troy. He dug

970
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: too far down, basically because he fucked up and probably

971
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: destroyed what actual Trojan relics there were. But he does

972
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: find what a lot of people think was the site

973
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: of Troy. It's just other shit was built there, and

974
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 1: he dug up the wrong shit anyway, fucked up, Yes, yes,

975
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: So his research or his digging, despite all the shit

976
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: it destroyed, produced hundreds upon hundreds upon hun of artifacts

977
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: which people at the time believed to be Trojan and

978
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: many of those artifacts, more than eighteen hundred of them,

979
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: were emblazoned with various types of swastika. And I'm going

980
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: to quote next from Scientific American. He would go on

981
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: to see the swastika everywhere from Tibet to Paraguay to

982
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: the Gold Coast of Africa, and as Schleiman's exploits grew

983
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: more famous and archaeological discoveries became a way of creating

984
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: a narrative of national identity, the swastika grew more prominent.

985
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: It exploded in popularity as a symbol of good fortune,

986
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: appearing on Coca Cola products, boy Scouts and Girls club materials,

987
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: and even American military uniforms. The Antiquities on Earths by

988
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: doctor Schleiman at Troy Acquire for us a double interest,

989
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: wrote British linguist Archibald Sais in eighteen ninety six. They

990
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: carry us back to the later stone ages of the

991
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:47,720
Speaker 1: Aryan race.

992
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: Oh dear on Coca Cola products, Robert, what if that

993
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: was just a product or serviced advertised?

994
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: But it wasn't a naz It's like I I spent

995
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: some time living in Indias and it's fucking their's swastikas

996
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 1: all over the dam and it is weird. It takes

997
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: you never really get used to it because of like

998
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: what it means to the West. It's always like there's

999
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: so many swastikas around here.

1000
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: That is I mean, even that is fascinating to like

1001
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: track the history of a symbol and like how it

1002
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: affects different areas of the world differently.

1003
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:21,959
Speaker 3: That sounds extremely jarring.

1004
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: I actually I have some like tapestries that I picked

1005
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: up in India that have little swastikas on them in parts,

1006
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where it's like every

1007
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: now and then, like they're not the same as the

1008
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: Nazi swastikas, but they're close enough that people will be like,

1009
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: what's up.

1010
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 3: No, I need to leave your home right now?

1011
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're like most people.

1012
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 3: Swasticas are pretty small. Most people aren'tetting enough the.

1013
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: Blanket Nazi Nazi swastikas.

1014
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: See if I was over your house and you said that,

1015
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 2: I would be like, I actually, my uber is here,

1016
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 2: you know, like if you're like, they're not nasty swas

1017
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 2: Nazi swastikas, so calm down.

1018
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that.

1019
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 3: Uh, and they offer me a Miller lt. They're not Nazis.

1020
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: Would you like a Miller light?

1021
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: No, exactly, No, my standard greeting people.

1022
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how you greet all your guests.

1023
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: That's specifically how I say to hello to the officers

1024
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: who pull me over for speeding.

1025
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 3: No, no, I would be interestedd I.

1026
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: I know I've gone down that Wikipedia hole at one

1027
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: point of just like tracking the symbology, the symbology of

1028
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: the it's it goes back.

1029
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 1: So Shleman. There's criticism of Sleman honestly for his methods.

1030
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: But he's not in any way a Nazi, Like, he's

1031
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: just a guy who finds a bunch of swastika is

1032
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: buried underground, and he's just an.

1033
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 2: Unqualified archaeologist using his money in a weird way.

1034
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: He's he's very controversial. Still, there are aspects of what

1035
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: he did that a lot of people praise because he

1036
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: he got a lot of shit right, but he also

1037
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: destroyed a huge amount of cultural antiquities. He's an interesting person.

1038
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: You should read about Shlemans in archaeology. Okay, yeah, yeah,

1039
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: I mean it.

1040
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 2: Seems like a lot of those gentlemen explorers really delighted

1041
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 2: and you know, like destroying and selling off pieces of

1042
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: ancient history that had nothing to do with them.

1043
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: All of them are problematic. Yeah, I will say Schleiman

1044
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: is one who comes from like a purer place of

1045
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: just being really into this history. But yeah, you know

1046
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: they're all problematic, so hashtig problem. Yeah. Now, the swastikas

1047
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 1: he found increasingly all over the world played directly into

1048
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: a shared delusion that was spreading like a disease among

1049
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: many of the eras white people. The myth of the

1050
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 1: ancient Aryan. Now, in actual historical terms, Aryan is a

1051
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: term used to refer to the Indo Aryan language group.

1052
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: It was never a racial classification. The term started being

1053
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: used because early linguists noticed strange similarities between languages like German, Romani, Punjabi, Hindu,

1054
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: Urdu in Sanskrit. Well, the term Aryan was initially applied

1055
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: to speakers of various Indo Iranian languages. The understanding of

1056
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: the word became corrupted in the late eighteen hundreds. This

1057
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: occurred along the same time that colonialism started to reach

1058
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: its absolute zenith, and there were a lot of white

1059
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: folks looking for reasons to justify the fact that they

1060
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: were basically plundering and enslaving the entire world. There were

1061
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: also a lot of white folks looking at their increasingly

1062
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: multi racial societies, which at that point, like meant Italians

1063
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: and Slavs breed with Germans and British people, and were

1064
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: getting concerned about this fact. And I'm going to refer

1065
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: back to Smithsonian Magazine again quote. The rising interest in

1066
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: eugenics and rachel hygiene, however, led to some to corrupt

1067
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: Aryan into a descriptor for an ancient master racial identity

1068
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: with a clear through line to contemporary Germany. As The

1069
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: Washington Post reported in a story about the rise of

1070
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: Nazism several years before the start of World War two,

1071
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: Arianism was an intellectual dispute between bewhiskered scholars as to

1072
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: the existence of a pure and undefiled Aryan race at

1073
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: one time stage of Earth's history. In the nineteenth century,

1074
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: French aristocrat Arthur de Gobinho and others made the connection

1075
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: between the mythical Aryans and the Germans, who are the

1076
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: superior descendants of the early people, now destined to lead

1077
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: the world to greater advancement by conquering their neighbors. The

1078
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: findings of Schleiman's dig in Turkey then suddenly had a

1079
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: deeper ideological meaning. For the nationalists. The purely Aryan symbol

1080
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: Shleiman uncovered was no longer an archaeological mystery. It was

1081
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: a stand in for their superiority. German nationalist groups like

1082
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 1: the reich Schammerbund, a nineteen twelve anti Semitic group, and

1083
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: the Bavarian Freikorp paramilitary basically the proud Boys of the era,

1084
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: used the swastika to reflect their newly discovered identity. As

1085
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: the master race. Now, the reality is that swastikas appeared

1086
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: damn near everywhere in human history. It's a common design

1087
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: and a striking one, and a bunch of different groups

1088
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: of people have independently figured it out over time.

1089
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: And people should stop talking to you about your blanket

1090
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 2: and actually just relax.

1091
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 3: They're pretty small.

1092
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: Nowadays. The swastika is the swastika, like it's the Nazi

1093
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: thing unless you're in India, because the world's big. But

1094
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: back in these days, like if you're looking at like

1095
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: ancient history, it's best to kind of look at the

1096
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: swastika the humor that weird s doodle we all put

1097
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: on our trapper keepers back in the nineties, Like no

1098
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: one invented that. It just showed up everywhere. That's the

1099
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: fucking swastika in prehistory. It's just all over the damn place.

1100
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: But of course, yeah, uh oh, I have that blanket.

1101
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: It was not seen as this though by a lot

1102
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: of people, and anthropologist Gwendoline Lake notes quote when Heinrich

1103
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: Schlimann discovered swastikaike decorations on pottery, flagments and all archaeological

1104
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: levels at Troy, it was seen as evidence for a

1105
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,919
Speaker 1: racial continuity and proof that the inhabitants of the site

1106
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: had been Aryan all along. The link between the swastika

1107
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: and Indo European origin, once forged, was impossible to discard.

1108
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: It allowed the projection of nationalist feelings and associations onto

1109
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: a universal symbol, which hint served as a distinguishing boundary

1110
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: marker between non Aryan, or rather not German and German identity.

1111
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 2: That's fascinating that, I mean, because you can understand the logic,

1112
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 2: but it also is kind of absurd to assume that, like, oh,

1113
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 2: this symbol is always surely must mean the exact same

1114
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: thing thousands of years ago as it does to me

1115
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 2: today now.

1116
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: The people then were as dumb as the people who

1117
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: planted the Iowa Caucuses. Wow, that's why all this happened.

1118
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 3: Robert, my dog worked on the Shadow app so really

1119
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 3: wash your mouth.

1120
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: That is sunny.

1121
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 3: Sony invested in the Shadow app.

1122
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: I have to say it this all this math adds up.

1123
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, of course he kept he was talking

1124
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 2: about shadow app for and I'm like, that can't be real,

1125
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: and then probably thought.

1126
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: It was the dog from uh uh, what was that

1127
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: movie with the dogs and cat that talk and they

1128
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: find their family terrible. I don't know a good movie

1129
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: Homeward Bound, Homeward.

1130
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: Oh, I haven't seen Home found Sonny definitely just wanted

1131
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: to harm people, and he wanted to harm the discourse,

1132
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: and that's why he invested in shadow app That's fair.

1133
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: That's fair. You could call him the Hitler of the

1134
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: Iowa caucases, which a lot of people.

1135
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 3: Many have, but it makes me uncomfortable.

1136
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: Sitting in Athens, reading the news of Hitler's movement in

1137
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: Germany and staring at ancient swastikas on beloved Greek artifacts,

1138
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: things started to come together in Maximiani Portos's mind. She

1139
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: moved to Greece permanently in nineteen twenty eight, after finishing

1140
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: college and renouncing her French citizenship. The very next year,

1141
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, she went with her mother and aunt

1142
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: on a trip to the Holy Land that wound up

1143
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: having just as deep an impact on her developing mind

1144
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: as the swastika. Now, Maximiani had never been very religious.

1145
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: Her mother and aunt were, though, and while they failed

1146
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: to inculcate a love of Christ in Maximiani, they did

1147
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: succeed in making her hate Jewish people, which is not

1148
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: the part of Christianity to transfer if you're gonna pick

1149
00:58:59,200 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: one all.

1150
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 3: I mean, there's so.

1151
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 2: Many different horrible things to take away from Christianity, and

1152
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 2: that is.

1153
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 3: That is the worst of all.

1154
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1155
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, she got none of the good stuff, just the

1156
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: anti Semitism. Uh okay, yeah, yeah, it's not great.

1157
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 3: It's not great. I'm starting to think this lady maybe

1158
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 3: not so nice.

1159
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: Not heading in a great direction. Yeah. Now, a lot

1160
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: of this was tied to the fact that Maximiani was

1161
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: so in love with Greek culture and she was really

1162
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: pissed off because she was like particularly in love with

1163
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: like ancient Greek pagan culture, like the old Greek gods

1164
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: and their myths and stuff, and none of that stuff

1165
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: was very relevant other than it's like an academic thing

1166
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: by this point in history, and Christianity and Judaism were

1167
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: obviously hugely relevant in Europe, and she hated this, and

1168
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: she blamed the Jews for the fact that nobody other

1169
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: people weren't as into Greek history as she was, Like

1170
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: this is like the core of it for her. It

1171
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: was like she's in love with like Zeus and shit,

1172
00:59:58,120 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: and she's like, why don't people like this as much

1173
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: I do. It's the Jews.

1174
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 3: She's become a chaos nerd.

1175
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: No, it's not great.

1176
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really bad.

1177
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: So her trip to the Holy Land with her mom

1178
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: and aunt was a bit of a weird one. No, okay,

1179
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: I mean yeah. She was revolted by the obeisance they

1180
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: played to Judeo Christian holy sites, and as she touristed

1181
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: her way through old Jerusalem, she felt, in her biographer's words,

1182
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: overwhelmed and repelled by the exotic nature of the Jews.

1183
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: They're attired, they're customs, observances and festivals. The strange dark

1184
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: men in broad brimmed hats and blong black coats hastening

1185
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: to prayers at the Wailing Wall. Okay, it's interesting that

1186
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: Goodwin Clark Portis's biographer mentions this specifically, seeing these Jewish

1187
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: people and being like horrified by the way they look

1188
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: in their coats and hair locks and long black coats.

1189
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: It's possible that precise moment never happened, but it's worth

1190
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: noting that this moment bears a striking resemblance to a

1191
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: tale Adolf Hitler told regularly about the supposed moment that

1192
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: he specifically gained his hatred of Jewish people. And here's

1193
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: how he wrote about that moment in Mine comp. This

1194
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: takes place in Lintz, No, sorry, in Austria, maybe his

1195
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:18,439
Speaker 1: boy Vienna. Once, as I was strolling through the inner city,

1196
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: I suddenly encountered an apparition in a black caftan and

1197
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: black hair locks. Is this a jew was my first thought,

1198
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: for to be sure they had not looked like that

1199
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: in Linz, where he grew up. I observed the man

1200
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: furtively and cautiously. But the longer I stared at this

1201
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: foreign face, scrutinizing feature for feature, the more my first

1202
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: question assumed a new form. Is this a German? So

1203
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,919
Speaker 1: this is like a huge moment in like Hitler lore.

1204
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: It's possible that the reason that Portis writes her own thing,

1205
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: like her own story this way is that she's hearkening

1206
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: to mine comp, because again she writes about this later.

1207
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: It's also possible they just were similar people and had

1208
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: a similar Momentpholks.

1209
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: If she's the primary resource for herself and seems to

1210
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 2: have like a fair grasp on storytelling, it makes sense that.

1211
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: She would pull It doesn't make sense she's like, oh,

1212
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: this is.

1213
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 2: The end of act one, where's my inciting she needs

1214
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: she wrote her own inciting incident.

1215
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: If it didn't, yeah, I'll take a leaf out of

1216
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: you know. It's like, uh, you know, George Lucas stole

1217
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: from from great Japanese cinema to make Star Wars, and

1218
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: in a very similar fashion, Savitri DEVII stole from Adolf

1219
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: Hitler the causawa of.

1220
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 3: Not tr true artists Steel Robert. It's what they it's

1221
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 3: what they open saying for generations. Yeah, that is funny.

1222
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 2: I mean I feel like that same logic of like

1223
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 2: you have to have a story to go with your hatred.

1224
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: They have that same logic on like Iron Chef, you know,

1225
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: like they be like, there has to be a story

1226
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 2: that goes with this dish.

1227
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 3: And sometimes you're like, sometimes it just is.

1228
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: She just cooked some fucking food, asshole. Sometimes you just

1229
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: make some food and it's bad and it's terrible.

1230
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1231
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: So Maximiani would go on to claim that after this

1232
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: visit to the Holy Land, she decided that Hitler's campaign

1233
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: of hate against Jewish people was not just a matter

1234
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 1: of German concern, it was an international crusade. She came

1235
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: to believe that all of the formerly pagan nations of

1236
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: Europe had to throw off their Judaeo Christian heritage and

1237
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: like reconnect with their pagan roots. And this is the

1238
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: first time she realizes that she's a national socialist, and

1239
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: she the way she described that, she realizes she's always

1240
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 1: been a national socialist. And so she falls fully in

1241
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: love with Hitler at this point. And she's not a

1242
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: German Nazi though, And initially the way she decides to

1243
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: act on this newfound Nazism is to basically try to

1244
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: revive Greek nationalism and pagan beliefs, kind of with the

1245
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: structure of national socialism over them. And so she returns

1246
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: to Athens and she sets to work trying to cobble

1247
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 1: together her own Greek version of Nazism, but focused around

1248
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: a religious component that involved a return to worshiping the

1249
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 1: ancient Greek pantheon.

1250
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 3: I mean always with this woman.

1251
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, by this point, the ancient Greeks had become

1252
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: sort of the Uberminsch in her own mind, and this

1253
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: conception was nursed by the bits of Hitler speeches that

1254
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 1: made their way over into the press in her part

1255
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:21,919
Speaker 1: of the world. By nineteen thirty, she finally read mind

1256
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 1: Camp for the very first time, which introduced Maximiani to

1257
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: Hitler's theories about the Aryan race. His ideas about the

1258
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: superior race consistently undermined by the evil Jews jailed remarkably

1259
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: well with Maximiani's own beliefs about the ancient Greeks and

1260
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 1: the Jews. She became increasingly obsessed with the Arians, and

1261
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: in part the idea of seeking out the remaining evidence

1262
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: of their existence. And at the time, it was generally

1263
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: understood that India had been conquered and ruled by the Aryans.

1264
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: Many among the weirder Nazi sets saw Hinduism as an

1265
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 1: example of a pure Ariyan pagan tradition uncorrupted by Judaism.

1266
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: They found the Hindu cast system deeply intriguing as well,

1267
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: for reasons that should be obvious, and enshrining a small

1268
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: number of superior beings and power over a vast number

1269
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: of less valuable individuals. In nineteen thirty two, Maximiani's father

1270
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: died and she decided to take this as an opportunity

1271
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: to travel to India to seek out the truth of

1272
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: the ancient Arians. It's like a Nazi version of Eat, Pray, Love.

1273
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is in another world. This is a very

1274
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: cute movie, and she just took every the same from it.

1275
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: It's you remember that horrible Cameron Crow movie Elizabethtown or

1276
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 2: Orlando Blue Drivers as the Country with.

1277
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 3: His Dad's ashes, and is like, I'm glad we had

1278
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 3: this talk. And You're like, what the fuck are you?

1279
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: It sounds like forty different movies, Jamie, It's no, it's

1280
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 1: the same.

1281
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 3: It's the same. Oh my elizabeth townheads Well, no, it's

1282
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 3: the same. Paula Deane's in that movie.

1283
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: Cursed, Oh God, speaking of Nazis. Now. So Savitri decides

1284
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: she's gonna go to fucking India, and she's not the

1285
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 1: only person this idea of going to India to seek

1286
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: out the Arians. In fact, in nineteen thirty five, Heinrich

1287
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 1: Himmler's SS founded the annan Nerby, a scientific think tank

1288
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: dedicated to finding evidence of the ancient Arians, and they

1289
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: actually sent multiple expeditions into India and Tibet. Maximiani went

1290
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: to India to find evidence of the Arians too, but

1291
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: she also went there to see firsthand evidence of a

1292
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 1: civilization founded upon what she believed was a natural racial hierarchy.

1293
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: She felt that Indian society looked how the world would

1294
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: appear in the year eight thousand, after six thousand years

1295
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: of Nazi rule, very specifically then eight thousand.

1296
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 3: The Jonahs Brothers didn't even think that far, you know.

1297
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 1: But they're huge, The Nazi Jokers brothers are.

1298
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 3: Huge in the year never shut up enjoying this moment that.

1299
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:46,439
Speaker 1: I do not get that joke.

1300
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 2: The Jonahs brothers first single in two thousand and six

1301
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 2: or maybe seven was a song called year three thousand.

1302
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 2: They said, not much has changed, but we live underwater.

1303
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 2: That's all they knew about.

1304
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: That's a lot of change, Jamie.

1305
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 3: Well, they say.

1306
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: That not much has changed a thousand, not much has changed.

1307
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 3: I've been.

1308
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 1: Also live under water.

1309
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 3: It's a weird it makes no sense. Okay, sorry, Robert

1310
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 3: continued your podcast.

1311
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 2: But she's thinking that a year eight thousand, eight thousand,

1312
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 2: think even Kevin John she already has.

1313
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: You have to give her credit. She is eight times

1314
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: as ambitious as Hitler.

1315
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 3: God.

1316
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1317
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: So upon her arrival in the country, her beliefs were

1318
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: seemingly confirmed when she watched a parade celebrating Rama, a

1319
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 1: deified Aryan hero. The parade featured huge numbers of dark

1320
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: skinned Indians bowing and worshiping a lighter skinned statue of Rama,

1321
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: and Rama is most assuredly not white, although he is

1322
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: often depicted as lighter skinned, but he is definitely Indian.

1323
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 1: But it was not uncommon for Europeans who were attracted

1324
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:04,439
Speaker 1: to India in this period to decide that a number

1325
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: of ancient Hindu heroes and gods were in fact white.

1326
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: This was like a common thing, and in fact, Maximiani's

1327
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: favorite poet who we talked about earlier, Lecante Delisle, had

1328
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 1: actually written a poem about Rama that referred to him

1329
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: as Thou whose blood is pure, Thou whose body is white,

1330
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: and a subduer of all the profane races. So, yeah,

1331
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 1: everyone's a little bit of a Nazi in colonialism. That's

1332
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: kind of the deal.

1333
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 3: That's kind of their thing. It's kind of I mean, yeah,

1334
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:34,879
Speaker 3: not shocking.

1335
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 1: And if you're interested in the story of Rama. One

1336
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: thing I would recommend that's super accessible. There's a movie

1337
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 1: online by Nina Paley, who's a female graphic artist who's amazing,

1338
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: called Sida Sings the Blues. If you just google that,

1339
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:49,799
Speaker 1: it's the whole movie's free. It's one of those beautiful

1340
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 1: pieces of animation. It's why I went to Indian in

1341
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 1: the first places. An incredible movie.

1342
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

1343
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,560
Speaker 1: And one of the things that does really well is

1344
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: it has all these scenes where like individual like myths

1345
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 1: from like Hindu mythology are explained by like groups of

1346
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 1: people arguing about them, which if you actually go to India,

1347
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: is how you learn about myths. Like if you talk

1348
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 1: about the myth of Sida and Rama to like a family,

1349
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 1: everyone in the family, you like get like multiple different

1350
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: versions of the story, and people will argue with each other.

1351
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: Like it's not like Christian orthodoxy or whatever. Like it's

1352
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 1: very very complicated stuff, but fascinating. So yeah. Maximiani is

1353
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 1: convinced that this guy's white, though, and she falls in

1354
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: love with India and eventually finds her way to an

1355
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 1: ashram in Bengal, where she's able to live cheap and

1356
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: learn Hindu and study Hindu religious traditions. She gets a

1357
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,600
Speaker 1: job outside of Delhi teaching English and Indian history, and

1358
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 1: she grew more and more taken with Hinduism, until in

1359
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six, she adopted a Hindu name, Savitri Devi,

1360
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: taken from a Hindu solar goddess. This woman is obsessed

1361
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 1: with some gods and goddess.

1362
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 3: Loves gods and goddess is so much. She's such a dork.

1363
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's specifically sun gods and goddess is. She's fucking

1364
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 1: obsessed with Aknaton too. It's weird.

1365
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 2: There was a girl in my middle school who was like,

1366
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 2: call me Artemis and we're like, no, okay, no, no,

1367
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 2: we did, we did, and our and if. I was

1368
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 2: also a dork, but not that kind of dork god, No, no, no,

1369
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 2: I was just a normal, white, bright eyes loving dork.

1370
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in calling people by whatever name

1371
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: they prefer to be referred to, unless it's the name

1372
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: of a god or goddess. Then I just start I

1373
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 1: just get furious. Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna

1374
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: push that behavior.

1375
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 2: Well, she was. She was Artemis for all of eighth grade,

1376
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 2: and then she went back to uh, just just Alex

1377
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:43,679
Speaker 2: for the rest of as far as I know her life.

1378
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 1: That's fine. Yeah, yeah, any other name really now. Early

1379
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 1: on in her time in India, Savitri had hiked to

1380
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 1: the top of a hill and seen a beautiful Indian fortress,

1381
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: one of many such colossal ancient relics that dot the country.

1382
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 1: She was taken by its beauty and equally horrified by

1383
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: a more modern Jesuit hospital that had been constructed nearby.

1384
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: This was powerfully symbolic to her, and she claimed that

1385
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 1: it cemented in her a deep need to protect Hindu

1386
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 1: India from being infected by Judeo Christian taint. Starting in

1387
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:15,759
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven, she began working as an anti Christian

1388
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:20,040
Speaker 1: preacher for Swami Satyananda's Hindu Mission in Calcutta. For two years,

1389
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:22,880
Speaker 1: she criss crossed the country, meeting with various tribal elders

1390
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: and arranging public debates with Christian missionaries. And I'd like

1391
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 1: to quote now from an article by Conrad Elst, an

1392
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: indiologist who's analyzed this history. Quote. Thoroughly familiar with the

1393
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,640
Speaker 1: mentality and methods of her adversary, she could destroy the

1394
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 1: credit of the imported religion in the minds of the

1395
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 1: villagers and prevent or undo many conversions. There was a

1396
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 1: sharp contradiction between her own racist and anti egalitarian convictions

1397
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: and the reformist in a galitarian program of the Hindu Mission.

1398
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,639
Speaker 1: To the Hindu Mission, Hinduism was a value in itself

1399
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: to Savitri Devi. It was but an instrument of her

1400
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: imagined Aryan race. In her years as a preacher, she

1401
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: kept her non Hindu preoccupations to herself, but in her

1402
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: memoirs she declared that she conceived of her reconversion mission

1403
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 1: as an exercise and deception from the racist Aryan viewpoint,

1404
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:09,799
Speaker 1: it was necessary to give the most backward and degenerate

1405
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: aborigines a false Hindu consciousness, she wrote. This is one

1406
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: of the major areas where you'll run into disputes about

1407
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 1: Savitri Devi. The common view on her legacy is spoiler

1408
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 1: that she proposed a synthesis between Hinduism and Nazism, and

1409
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: aspects of this are true, but it would be more

1410
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 1: accurate to say that she found Hinduism a useful tool

1411
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:32,800
Speaker 1: for advancing Nazism. And I'm going to quote again from

1412
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: Else's essay. In contrast with the Hindu nationalists, but in

1413
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 1: tune with Indian Marxists and Castists, she believed that the

1414
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 1: concept nation and a program of nationalism could not apply

1415
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 1: to India. In nineteen thirty eight, she used the slogan

1416
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 1: make every Hindu and Indian nationalist, and every Indian nationalist

1417
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 1: to Hindu. Now this seems to be something not legitimately, Yeah,

1418
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 1: and she didn't really believe it. In her autobiography years later,

1419
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,519
Speaker 1: she expressed the belief that nationalism could only exist within

1420
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: members of the same race, thought that all the different

1421
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: casts in India were different races. And we're getting into

1422
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 1: the weeds here too much. But it's important to understand

1423
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 1: for what comes next that Saviitri Devi advocated for Hindu nationalism,

1424
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: but not because she believed strongly in it. Because she

1425
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: saw it as a useful tool for harming the British

1426
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,679
Speaker 1: Empire and advancing Nazism. Okay, it's her main goal.

1427
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 3: So she's merely co opting it for her own sinister purposes.

1428
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: It's a little more complicated than that because she also

1429
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 1: loves it, like she's She's takes on a lot of

1430
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: Hindu beliefs. It's this is a weird story and there's

1431
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 1: no like super simple answer to it. But it's not

1432
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: as simple as she just becomes Hindu and also Nazi.

1433
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 1: Like it's weirder than that too.

1434
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 3: No one edited this out. I need people to know

1435
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 3: what what I've been forced to endure. You just like

1436
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:53,440
Speaker 3: literally did that into the microphone.

1437
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: Literally it was hard.

1438
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 3: I had to I'm sorry.

1439
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 2: I can see Robert right now, and he wiped his

1440
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 2: nose on the mic and he was like, linked it

1441
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 2: and then licked it.

1442
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 3: You licked Robert Evan, You licked it.

1443
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 1: All of this gets edited out now. Many Hindu nationalists

1444
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: were very bullish about the Nazis because Great Britain owned

1445
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 1: India and ruled it as a brutal colonial oppressor, and

1446
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: they figured, you know, the enemy of my enemy, right.

1447
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 1: Not all of them felt this way. There were a

1448
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: lot of Hindu nationalists who were against the Nazis because

1449
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: they were like, well, but they're Nazis, so again, I

1450
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,679
Speaker 1: can't paint everybody with the same brush. Yeah, but Savitri

1451
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:36,800
Speaker 1: got along very well with the set of Hindu nationalists

1452
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 1: who are like, yeah, the Nazi seemed good. And she's

1453
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:44,799
Speaker 1: particularly taken with doctor Asit Krishna Mukshi, one of India's

1454
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 1: few actual committed Nazis. In nineteen thirty seven and thirty eight,

1455
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: Mukarshi started to publish a bi monthly pro Nazi magazine,

1456
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 1: The New Mercury. Savitri met him in early nineteen thirty

1457
01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 1: eight and they didn't instantly fall in love, but she

1458
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 1: fell in love with like his mind. She was probably bisexual,

1459
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 1: but certainly wasn't interested in Mukershi in any way. But

1460
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 1: she falls in love with like this guy's Nazism. Basically,

1461
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 1: they're that kind of so they're an god. That's so,

1462
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's not great.

1463
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:22,160
Speaker 2: That's bleak because it's like, yeah, I mean, if you're

1464
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:27,000
Speaker 2: gonna marry a Nanzi and you're not even attracted to them,

1465
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 2: no excuse, no excuse way, but you know what I mean, she.

1466
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:33,639
Speaker 1: Has a little bit of an excuse. But we're getting

1467
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 1: to it.

1468
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 3: So you are cutting this lady all kinds of slack, Robert.

1469
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm just explaining her, Do you have a crime?

1470
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 2: Now?

1471
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,680
Speaker 1: So she doesn't. They don't get together right away. She

1472
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: loves his understanding of Nazi ideology, and particularly his emphasis

1473
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: on the myths of the Old Arians, and Mukershi was

1474
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 1: like obsessed with the Fule society the tool of society,

1475
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:56,200
Speaker 1: and it acquired a lot of their occult writing. So

1476
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 1: he's like that kind of nerdy, and Mukershi seems to

1477
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: like genuinely appreciate Savitri's ideas and the fact that she

1478
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 1: was just as much of a nerd for Nazism. As

1479
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,360
Speaker 1: he was, but he was baffled by her insistence on

1480
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 1: staying in India while Nazi Germany like rose to the

1481
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: heights of its power in early nineteen thirty nine, He

1482
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:16,160
Speaker 1: asked her, what have you been doing in India all

1483
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: these years, with your ideas and your potentialities, wasting your

1484
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 1: time and energy. Go back to Europe where duty calls you.

1485
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: Go and help the rebirth of Aryan Heathendom, where there

1486
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 1: are still Rians strong and wide awake. Go to him

1487
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 1: who is truly life and resurrection, the leader of the

1488
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: Third Reich. Go at once. Next year will be too late.

1489
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 1: And he was kind of right about that. But sat

1490
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 1: who was convinced that she could do yeah.

1491
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like, well historically okay, yeah.

1492
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 1: Savitri, though, was convinced that she could do more for

1493
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 1: the cause of Nazism in India than in Germany. She'd

1494
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: become close with members of the Rashtriya Swaamsavik Song or

1495
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 1: rss AD, a Hindu nationalist movement that were very similar

1496
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,799
Speaker 1: to the Nazis. The founder or one of the founders,

1497
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: ab Hedjwar, formed the group to defend Hindu society from

1498
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 1: daily onslaughts by outsiders and he included Muslim Indians as

1499
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 1: members of that group. Like all fascist organizations, the RSS

1500
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:13,840
Speaker 1: had a uniform khaki shorts, a white shirt, and a

1501
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 1: black cap. RSS members met daily to train with bamboo

1502
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 1: beat sticks called lafi's and to learn about Hindutva Hindu nationalism.

1503
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty nine, Savitri wrote a warning to the Hindus.

1504
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 1: The book's forward was written by G. D. Savarkar, brother

1505
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: to one of the co founders of the RSS, and

1506
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 1: according to an article by South Asian affairs analyst Peter Friedrich,

1507
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 1: quote Devi advanced V. D. Savarkar's thesis of Hindutfa that

1508
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,759
Speaker 1: India is a Hindu nation of Hindu people and only

1509
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 1: for Hindu people. She claimed that Hindu society is India itself,

1510
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 1: called Hinduism the national religion of India and suggested that

1511
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: Hindu should tell non Hindus, we represent India, not you.

1512
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 1: Therefore India is ours not yours. Shears urged Hindus to recover,

1513
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 1: along with their national consciousness, their military virtues of old

1514
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:03,840
Speaker 1: to rebecome a military race. The method, she said, should

1515
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: be the organization of the young men in pledge bound

1516
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: military like batches with Hindu nationalism as their only ideal.

1517
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:12,679
Speaker 1: And here's where I pause to note that the current

1518
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:15,519
Speaker 1: Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi, is a member of

1519
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,960
Speaker 1: the RSS. A warning to Hindus is still considered to

1520
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 1: be a deeply influential text within the Hindu nationalist movement

1521
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 1: and the RSS. Mody probably read it as a child

1522
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,600
Speaker 1: and a list of his crimes in the thousands of

1523
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 1: murders and moss bombings and beatings carried out by Hindu

1524
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:32,600
Speaker 1: nationalists against Indian Muslims would go beyond the scope of

1525
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 1: this episode, but it is worth noting that the current

1526
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:38,559
Speaker 1: authoritarian lurch by India, the world's largest democracy, owes at

1527
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 1: least a decent amount to the work of Savitri Devi.

1528
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:44,640
Speaker 1: So that's cool, you're in love with her?

1529
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1530
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: I mean it is a sign of where this is

1531
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 1: going that I kind of glossed over the fact that

1532
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 1: she played a role in the establishment of what's starting

1533
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:57,439
Speaker 1: to become a fascist dictatorship in India.

1534
01:18:57,640 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

1535
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:01,439
Speaker 1: We just have so much to cover, We have so

1536
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 1: much to cover.

1537
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 2: We don't have time for the fascist dictatorship today. We

1538
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 2: have some time, but we have Okay, Okay, well, we'll

1539
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 2: make time. We'll make time for the fascist.

1540
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,520
Speaker 1: In nineteen forty Britain and Germany went to war. Savitri's

1541
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:15,680
Speaker 1: extremist beliefs were well known at this point, and she

1542
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 1: was forced to marry Mukershi in order to stay in

1543
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 1: the country. So that's why they get married. It's basically

1544
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: a green card thing. Yeah, got it. She described it

1545
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:26,120
Speaker 1: as a secless marriage, primarily to allow her to stay

1546
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: in the country, and she did what she could for

1547
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 1: Nazism while in India, spying on British military positions for

1548
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:35,599
Speaker 1: the Axis and facilitating communication between Subhas Chandra Bose, leader

1549
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: of the National Indian Army, a pro Axis group, and

1550
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:41,599
Speaker 1: the Japanese government. In a different world, these contributions might

1551
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:43,759
Speaker 1: have played a role in a Japanese invasion of India,

1552
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 1: but World War Two went the way it did, and

1553
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:49,080
Speaker 1: Hitler eventually shot himself in a bunker to avoid capture.

1554
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 3: I'm familiar.

1555
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: Vitry learned of his death through an overheard conversation from

1556
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 1: two Muslim men on the Marabar coast. She was inconsolable

1557
01:19:57,479 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 1: for days over the death of her hero and the

1558
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 1: end of the belief system. She had dedicated her life

1559
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 1: to championing but mcare. She told her not to worry.

1560
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 1: This was merely part of the cycle of ages, and

1561
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: the dark age brought on by Hitler's defeat would someday end,

1562
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: and likewise, Jamie, one of this episode must now end. Okay,

1563
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: but this dark age we'll continue on Thursday with part

1564
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 1: two of the story of Savitri Devin. No, Okay, how

1565
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 1: you doing, Jamie.

1566
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just unclenching.

1567
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: That's important for the next two minutes.

1568
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 3: And then we got to talk about it again.

1569
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 2: I got it.

1570
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:40,360
Speaker 1: Abka always be clenching. Yeah, go plug your pluggables first.

1571
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 3: Oh right, Uh, leave that in. I want people to

1572
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 3: know that. Yeah, overshare had to pee, and also leave

1573
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 3: in Robert blowing his nose on the mic.

1574
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 1: Then Chris, you can edit out horrible.

1575
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 3: Chris, you can edit out the part where Robert is.

1576
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 2: Like young Delicious after licking his own it's not off

1577
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 2: the mic, but everything else should probably stay in.

1578
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:05,559
Speaker 1: I feel like this is legally abused.

1579
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 3: You could probably report me to HR. Could be fun,

1580
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 3: could be fun.

1581
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 2: My Twitter is Jamie Loftus help man on my Instagram

1582
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 2: is at Jamie christ Superstar and I'm touring for the

1583
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 2: better part of February. You can go to my website,

1584
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 2: Jamie loftus is Innocent dot com to find out where

1585
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 2: yay yeah.

1586
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 1: And you can find Sophie on Twitter yeh, finding her

1587
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 1: at Why Underscore Sophie Underscore Why. And that's it. That's

1588
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 1: all you can find of us online, which are on

1589
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards dot com, including the full free text

1590
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: of Hitler's Priestess If you want to read this book.

1591
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:58,479
Speaker 1: The episode's over. Go stop the French from murdering cats. Yes, great,