WEBVTT - MDMA: Pharmacological Healer 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.120 Welcome to stuff to blow your Mind from housetop work 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:14.760 dot com. Hey, wasn't discussedable in your mind. My name 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.000 is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. So we are 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.080 in part two of our M d M A Spectacular, 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.880 and the last episode we talked primarily about what M 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.240 d M A is, when it was invented, who invented it, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.560 and what its physical effects on the body are, right yeah. Uh, 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:33.320 And so if you haven't listened to that and you 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.280 want a little bit more background, I recommend that you 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.680 go back and listen to it. But what we're gonna 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.360 focus on here today is primarily how it's being used 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:43.440 in studies, or how it's been used really for the 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.600 last thirty or forty years, uh, in studies on how 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.080 to treat people for various things from everything from mental 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.720 problems to PTSD to cancer. Yeah, and uh, as as 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.840 we set up in the last episode, you're basically dealing 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.760 with two different phases, right. So the such stence is uh, 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.960 his first sin the size and the early twentieth century. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.319 It's not until uh, generally the what the sixties, seventies 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.520 and eighties that you see it used therapeutically, you see 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:15.680 people experimenting with its, uh, the potential potential benefits outside 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.120 of a recreational environment. But then it becomes enemy number one, right, 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.720 it becomes caught up in the culture episode. It was 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.920 immediately placed on like the most restrictive drug list, so 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.520 scientists couldn't even use it in their labs to study its. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.120 And this goes for various psychedelics as well, such as 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.440 a psilocybin. But then in recent years, we've seen a resurgence. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.520 You've seen you've seen psilocybin, you've seen in d m A, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.119 all these substance coming back into the lab and uh 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.560 and and professionals are able to actually explore them some more, 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:52.600 look at these undeniably potent, powerful substances and say what 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.360 what he or can we use? What can we change? What? 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.440 What can we just try to to use in a 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.160 proper environment, and and out of it all generate some 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.200 sort of positive effect. Yeah. And so before we get 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.800 into the real, you know, boiled down details about this, 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.440 I want to remind everybody that the podcast isn't the 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.840 only way that you can, you know, interact with us 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.440 or see the things that we're looking at. This week. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.600 We also are always writing on stuff to Blow your 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.600 Mind dot com. There's galleries, there's articles. At least once 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.079 or twice a week we're putting stuff up there, and 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.919 videos as well. So there's all the old stuff to 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.959 blow your own videos. But Robert, for instance, is currently 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.360 working on the How Stuff Works Now series and as 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.720 much as possible we try to share those videos as well. Uh, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.399 and they're very stuff to blow your mind related topics, right, yeah, yeah, 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.520 very much, weird science that sort of thing. And hey, uh, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:46.280 I know a lot of you listen to us on 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:51.560 various aggregated programs, various apps and whatnot, but but there 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.160 are certainly iTunes users out there getting us on iTunes 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.520 and listen us to listening to us on your iPhones. 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.359 If you get us through iTunes, show us some love 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.760 there helped the algorithm and that's a great way to 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.320 support the show without spending a dime. So all right, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.440 let's get into the pharmacological healing properties of m d 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.040 M A and this brings us back to Sholgun. Yeah, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.120 so Alexander Shulgan, who we talked a lot about in 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.519 the last episode, also known as Sasha Shulgin, the godfather 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:23.760 of ecstasy. UH was also primarily responsible for bringing to 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:29.600 the psychological community uh in in particular UM his wife Anne. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.600 My understanding was that she was a therapist and she 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.000 used M d m A and some of her therapy 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.480 sessions with her patients. But he also UH introduced it 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.920 to a guy named Leo Zef in ninety seven who 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.480 started using it in psychotherapy and introduced other therapists to it. 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.200 And so my understanding is that there is this kind 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.800 of underground network of therapists who were using it in 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.480 their research and in their studies. And this is before 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.960 it was tremendously legal. Yes, obviously it U One of 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:00.960 the areas you see mentioned a lot is it's used 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.280 in couples therapy. Because ultimately, as as we try to 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.120 drive home in the last episode, this idea that M 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.839 D m A and ecstasy produce, this feeling of ecstasy 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.920 is is a bitness leading. It's more empathy and sympathy. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.160 It's more a feeling of openness. Again, I like to 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.599 think of it as the self becomes permeable to the world, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:25.679 and so it it's able to improve emotional communication skills. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.520 So that was a boost empathy. So This is where 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.839 psychotherapist would use it to say, you have two individuals 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.640 that they're having marital problems, they're having communication problems, they 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.159 have all this stuff bottle up inside. Well than in 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.640 these cases, perhaps m d m A can be used 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.240 to open the two up to get them to talk 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.480 about things that they're not talking about. So it's not 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.720 a situation where like you're having marital problems, take two 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.880 of these and commy in the morning. It's like, let's 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.479 let's have a rap session and let's take this. You 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.920 will take this first, and this will enable the sort 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.040 of open communication we need. Yeah, I can't ephasize this enough. 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:05.040 For all of these psychotherapeutic uses that we're talking about here, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.000 they have to go hand in hand with actual sit 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.800 down in the chair, talk to a therapist counseling. Right. 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.200 It's not like you just take the m d m 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:14.760 A and call them in the morning. Right Like as 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.800 we just said, it's it's got to be in conjunction 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.680 with building trust with somebody that you can talk to 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.560 objectively about whatever the issues. It's the m d m 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.680 A assisted psychotherapy, not psychotherapy assisted m d m A usage. 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.159 And and we'll get into this more, especially with the 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.880 PTSD stuff. But basically what it does, the argument is 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.400 is that it allows you to increase your trust for 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.640 people if you have trouble trusting people, and it reduces 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.520 your fear and anxiety levels. So it's particularly good as 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.760 I you know, as you just mentioned, for something like 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.520 couples therapy where there's communication issues, if you have fear 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.080 of not communicating something or you need to trust your 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:56.480 partner more. That that's where the idea lies in its usage. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.560 So yeah, it was being used as early as the 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.880 seventies and you know, probably up until the mid eighties, 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:05.719 right around the time that it was made illegal in 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.960 the United States. Uh, but you know that that was 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.960 primarily like an underground thing. It wasn't like it wasn't 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.680 like a man dated. It wasn't like in the D 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.160 S M for or whatever came out in the seventies, right, 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.960 and so, uh, it wasn't until a more modern time really, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.720 right around the two thousands, I want to say, where 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.000 we started seeing m d m as show up again 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.600 in psychotherapy trials. That's right. And uh, the primary player 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:39.400 here is an organization known as MAPS that's Multidisciplinary Association 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.120 for psychedelic studies, and they're they're concerned not just with 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.840 m d m A, but with psilocybin other substances um. 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.040 And they continue to explore quote whether m d m 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.080 A assisted psychotherapy can help heal the psychological and emotional 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:59.800 damage caused bi sexual assault, war, violent crime, and other traumas. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.800 So this is this is one of the huge areas 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.320 of exploration here. And oh and just to give a 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.760 little more background on maps UM there, it's as they 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:14.640 are operating in several different countries I think five right now, Canada, Israel, Spain, Switzerland, Israel, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.360 and in the US. Yeah, there are trials being done 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.560 in the US. And I think I mentioned this at 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.680 the end of last episode, but it bears repeating here. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.880 It is super expensive to research system. Not only because 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.560 of all of the restrictions that have to be placed 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.760 on the facilities in which you are holding the m 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.560 d m A for these trials, right, Like you have 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:37.440 to build like like super like heavy door frames, right 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.440 or like security systems that you normally wouldn't have for 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.160 these places. But the medical grade m d m A 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:46.880 is also quite expensive. It can cost up to a 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:51.360 hundred and seventy dollars or seventy five dollars per dose. 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.320 So and that's like, as we were saying last episode, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.880 one dose is like a hundred, two hundred and fifty milligrams. Yeah. Again, 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.800 think back to the fact that one of the reasons 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:02.440 that it was shell for so long is that it 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.040 was expensive to study. So even in the you know, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:09.240 the early twentieth century German chemicists looked at it and uh, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.600 and they realized, oh, it has some sort of interesting properties, 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.680 but who has the budget to explore it. So before 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.280 we dive deeper down to the psychotherapy thing, I think 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.960 an interesting way to approach this is to add the 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.280 criticisms up first, so then as we go through it, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.400 we can sort of say, okay, we're those criticisms valid 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.360 or not. Uh. And in the research, one of the 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:31.960 major m d m A researchers who's published a lot 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.319 of literature on this is a guy named Andy Parrott, 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:38.280 who's i believe, out of the University of Swansea, and he, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.680 you know, has done a great paper that's on sort 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:44.040 of just the the general twenty five years of empirical 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.720 history of chemistry, right that the chemistry behind m DM 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.959 UM but he does acknowledge that there's been some criticism, uh, 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.719 and mainly that it's not safe for clinical use. Uh. 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.960 And some proponents say that it needs to be used 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.679 repeatedly for more than one or two sessions or otherwise 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.000 it won't produce gains in those situations, right. Uh. And 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.320 remember from the last episode, m d M AS effects 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.480 are short lived, and uh, it doesn't exactly work like that. 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.400 You know, as we said before, there's a chronic decline 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.520 over time. The more you use it, the less positive 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.120 effects are and the more the negative effects are. So 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.880 there's some concern about that with the tolerance levels. But 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:25.960 there's also acute effects of m d M A that 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.520 are unpredictable, which we talked about as well last time. 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.000 They can both be positive or negative, right like that, 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:35.559 for instance, that there's both positive and negative emotional responses, 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.800 or or that there's some undesirable experiences during the sessions, 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.880 and sometimes these undesirable experiences can last up to two 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.679 weeks long. So that's kind of parrots argument is, you know, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.040 let's let's stop before we do this. But uh, there's 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:55.199 also the idea of the neurochemical depletion the serotonin. Uh, 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.960 and can lead to feelings of depression, anger, and paranoia anyways. Uh, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.280 and it's especially bad for those who have pre existing depression, 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.360 and it could even predispose people who like, for instance, 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.720 we're already depressed but had um you know, dealt with 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.920 that issue, to a recurrence of their previous psychological disability. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.920 So these are all of his essential like criticisms of 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.040 I don't know that we're quite there yet for the 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:27.079 psychotherapy thing. And he presents us with two scenarios in 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.640 which he thinks that that this isn't going to particularly 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.160 work out. And I'll read through the first one and 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.559 we can respond to these as we go through the 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.280 benefits of the psychotherapy and see if see if his 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.840 criticisms are right. Yeah. So if we don't launch into 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.720 picking them apart right away, understand it, that's the reason. Yeah. Okay, So, parents, 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.439 first scenario is that you have a special Air Force 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.679 soldier who's discharged from the army because he has PTSD 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.240 post traumatic stress disorder. His therapist says, let's try this 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.079 m d M A assisted therapy. Oh, but the drug 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:02.000 stimulates the re emergence of the soldier's unpleasant war experiences, 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.320 and this includes feelings of aggression, the soldiers trying to 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.360 control these while he's at the clinic. However, later that evening, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.640 this is the scenario, mind you, he violently attacks a 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.080 stranger in the street. Following his arrest, his lawyer argues 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.640 that this aggressive act has been triggered by the m 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.560 d m A assisted therapy session. So okay, so so sorry. 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.840 Parrot is basically saying, Okay, this guy could potentially go 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.800 out in assault somebody due to the negative feelings that 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.880 get dredged up by this therapy induced m d m 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.960 A session. Okay, I have so many responses to that. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.520 Stick clear for a minute, a right. The second scenario 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:42.160 that he lays up is called involves a hypothetical case 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.960 of a female rape victim UH. He says. After the 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.040 first m DM assisted therapy session, the client feels much better, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.160 but the games do not injure over time. Following a 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:54.240 second UH session, this m d m A assisted again. 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.000 There's a brief period of of relief, and then a 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.560 third session is requested, but the therapist explains that she 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.320 can't clinically recommend it to the client. Now Quote seeks 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.160 out their own illicit supplies of ecstasy slash m d 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.400 m A. The only time she feels good is when 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.080 she is on m d m A, and she becomes 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:16.880 an habitual user. However, with reducing efficiency and increasing midweek blues, 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.320 her chronic anxiety, depression, and low self esteem steadily worsens. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.360 Mm hmm, yeah, so I don't know. I mean, that 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.760 seems counterintuitive even in and of itself, right, and the 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.200 idea that this person would become a habitual user given 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.599 what we know from Parrot's own discourse about m d 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.880 m A and that most people don't use it more 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.520 than ten times. Everything we discussed in the first episode 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.440 seems to to poke holes in that argument and a 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.240 lot of the research for that game parrots own writings. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.560 So I'm not quite sure about this, but let's let's 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.880 see if it matches up as we go along. Okay, Now, 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.000 this is something that ties into a criticism of scenario one, 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.880 but also just important to to look at going forward 0:12:58.280 --> 0:12:59.839 is that when it comes to the treatment of p 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.200 E s D, there is and there is an urgent 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.520 need for better treatment methods. So this is just this 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.120 isn't just a situation of a bunch of scientists or 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.440 even an organization saying hey, we've got to find a 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.120 way to make m d M a practical This is 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.319 not what you Harrelson wearing a hip jacket around, right. 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.079 This is this is here a professional saying, hey, we 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.320 need a better tool here, we need better methods, and 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:28.080 we need need better drugs to help these individuals. There's 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.840 a potential answer here, let's explore it. So to piggyback 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.680 on top of that, I think it's important that we 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.680 sort of just quickly prime and established what PTSD. It's, right, Like, 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.560 it's a term a lot of us throw around, and 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.240 I've heard people say before like, oh I have PTSD, 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.240 you know, And uh, this is what PTSD is. Uh. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.600 It is a manifestation of trauma physically in your body. 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:55.280 It's common in victims of war and abuse. It involves shaking, sweating, crumbling, anxiety, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.120 and flashbacks. And basically what we're looking at here is 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:04.480 the psychological scars having physical repercussions. Right, So they're physically 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.160 affecting a person's body. So that's what we're talking about 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.800 here for treatment is being able to get get them 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:18.200 to integrate past that physical trauma rather mental trauma manifesting 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.000 physically So here a couple of quick points that come 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.280 directly from MAPS about m d m A assisted psychotherapy. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.600 They said, they say an Indie may assisted psychotherapy India 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.680 is only administered a few times, unlike most medications for 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.200 mental illnesses, which are often taken daily for years and 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.600 sometimes forever. UH and MAPS is undertaking a roughly twenty 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.040 million dollar plan to make m d m A into 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:47.440 a Food and Drug Administration approved prescription medicine by one 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:52.320 now Here are just a few up pointers as well 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.600 that come from Ingrid Pacy, who I mentioned earlier. There's 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.720 a fabulous bit with her on the CBC Radio Ideas 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.120 again their three part series A High Culture, which I 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.960 highly recommend for anyone who's interested in just the overall 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.000 uh re emergence of psychedelic research over the past a 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.080 few decades and in some of the you know, the 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:18.320 the the concerns they're in. But Ingrid Percy is a psychiatrist. 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.240 She's a lead investigator of MBAM a assisted therapy for 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.800 treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder at the University of 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:28.400 British Columbia. So she points out that from phase one 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.480 studies around the world, we know that m d m 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.800 A seems to lower fear, particularly for treatment resistant PTSD, 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.560 creating a window. And it's interesting she says window because 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.240 because Hulkin references a window at that I believe was 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.680 the hundred neogram creates a window during which the trauma 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.560 can be considered and discussed without the associated fear getting 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.200 in the way. So it's about sort of allowing the 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.240 monster to come out so you can look at it 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.640 and deal with it and and and perhaps exercise it right. 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.800 According to pay see M d M. A psychotherapy usually 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:06.200 begins with feelings of relaxation, easing of muscles, and among 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.000 PTSD patients you often see the flashes of the past 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.800 trauma that then emerge, and it can even be a 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.440 strong bodily experience. So we mentioned this in the last 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:20.720 episode about how how taking ecstasy can produce uh, these 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.200 very strong negative feelings can can pull those out of 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.280 an interet. So that's where I assume Parrot is getting 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.520 his scenario to of which the soldiers experienced such a 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.760 negative emotions being recalled Yeah, and that but that that 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.320 what where I can't I'm having difficulty following him is 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.160 the logical extension of that to going out and assaulting 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.640 a person on the street, right, because he's saying, well, 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.520 you're gonna pull You're gonna pull the monster out of 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:48.560 the closet, and then the monster could win. Well, yeah, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.160 but part of what are you gonna do? Just leave 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.440 it in the closet. I mean, the idea here is 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.840 we've got to we've got to face these traumatic experiences, right, 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.960 and that m D MAY assisted psychotherapy can potentially allow 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.600 us to do so in a safer way with reduced 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.320 fear um and and during all of this, the therapist 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.080 or monitoring vital signs. Uh uh. Really, it's kind of 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.840 the best case scenario to be doing m d m 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.760 A in right, because you're not like like we talked 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.160 about last episode, like the some of the bad side 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:24.119 effects like the overheating or the chewing on your teeth, 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.600 running about music. Yeah, all of that kind of stems 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.600 out of the dance culture, not because of the drug, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.280 but because of the environment that you're in. Right. Yeah, 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.199 So you know this is again it's about using it 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.919 therapeutically with a therapist, using it as a way to 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.560 open that window, to to gain access to things that 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.840 are normally going to be too too buried, or or 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.440 to fear ridden to tackle and this is this is 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.800 really key here. Again. One of the major issues is 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.560 that there we need better tools, we need better medications 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.800 to treat PTSD. And according to two percy um, you 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.360 see about a thirty percent UH success rate for conventional 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:08.000 multi year PTSD therapy, but so far with the m 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.400 d m A PTSD therapy you've seen they've seen an 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.800 eight five percent success rate. Wow, okay, well that backs 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:16.520 up some of the other stuff that I read, which 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.879 said that there were significant gains found on there's a 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.359 there's a scale that's used to measure somebody's level of PTSD. 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.159 It's called the PTSD scale. And after using that UH, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.359 after using m d m A in therapy, using the 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:35.520 PTSD scale, they found that there were great gains over time. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.359 And in fact, when they did placebo trials telling people 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.399 that they were doing m d m A when they weren't, 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.320 they found less gains. So the the evidence does seem 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.040 to show that this works. Um. It also, you know, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.240 the aim here is is to help these people with 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.439 their debilitating symptoms. It's it's when they haven't responded to 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.000 other therapies, and it's this isn't like oh, let's just 0:18:58.040 --> 0:18:59.920 try this. You know, this is this is a such 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.639 watrotion where it's resistant to the last resort. Yeah. Uh, 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.199 you know, the other treatments are anything from talking to 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.840 exposure therapy, to the things that cause the PTSD to 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.800 all these daily medications that we could be using. Uh. 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.760 One therapist says that they think that it works because 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.080 of m d M as unique properties. And we talked 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.520 about this last time. It's both a stimulant and a psychedelic, right, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.960 so they said, quote, the stimulant gives people confidence and 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.080 the psychedelic allows people to reflect on themselves and their 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:33.280 experiences in a different way. This combination helps them confront 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.960 painful memories. And then in two thousand nine there was 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.119 an article by a Norwegian psychologist named I Believe this 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:44.200 is paliurine Yo Hansen, and he argued that it works 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.760 through several mechanisms. Basically, the m d M A is 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.120 increasing the levels of oxytocin in your body and this 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.040 is the we call it the cuttle chemical. Um. I 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.920 think you guys might have talked about this previously on 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.880 the episode it's released during breastfeeding, not in the episode 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:01.960 on the show and Stuff to Blow your mind at 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.359 five years one of yeah, the most frequently mentioned uh 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.520 properties of the body. I feel. So it increases our 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.560 oxytocin and what that does It prevents the brain's emotional 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.880 processing center from overpowering our higher thoughts. So it quells 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.000 fear and it encourages trust, just like we were talking 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:23.040 about earlier. So, um, you know we mentioned m d 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:27.040 m A has to occur in conjunction with psychotherapy. You 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.520 aren't just taking m d m A. And it's not 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.600 like you immediately go into therapy and you're taking m 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.960 d m A with the therapist. You need to establish 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.399 trust with this therapist through a series of sober sessions 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.840 before you do these m d m A sessions. And 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.040 usually at the most I think it's like three sessions, 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.160 which kind of makes sense along the lines of what 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:47.360 we know about people taking m d m A, its 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:51.879 effects and their efficacy. But then also, you know this 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:58.200 uh contradicts. I want to say, parents first example of 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:02.879 the potential uh subject where this wouldn't work for them, right, 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.000 and that they've become sorry it was their second example 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:09.640 where the girl becomes an addict, right, Um, so they 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.199 only use it for three sessions at the most. All Right, 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:13.840 we're gonna take a quick break and we come back. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.359 We're gonna we're gonna roll through some other potential uses 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.000 of m d m A as a cancer fighting agent. 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:23.359 Uh is potential uh aid in in couples therapy and 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.840 even away to ease an individual uh to the death point. 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.800 All Right, we're back. So we set up for this 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.040 a little bit in the in the previous episode. The 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.120 potential for for e m d M A to help 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.520 us fight cancer, which is this is one of the 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.920 This is an area of m d m A research 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.240 that is uh, it kind of stands apart from the 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.800 rest because it's so it's not attached to the most 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.480 apparent properties of the drug. Right. In fact, so funny. Sorry. 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.000 Yesterday was getting my hair cut and as the first 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.439 time I was getting my haircut by this particular hairdresser. 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:06.199 She asked me what I did for a living and 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.000 what I was working on right now, and I told 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.439 her was researching m d M UH and and she said, oh, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.800 that's fascinating. And I said it can be used to 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.640