1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, this is part two of our episodes about 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams and Miss America. If you haven't listened to 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: part one, I recommend starting there. 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 2: And I know Miss America. 5 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 3: It's Vanessa Willy out of his face. 6 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams upended more than sixty years of white beauty 7 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: standards when she was crowned Miss America in nineteen eighty four, 8 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: making history as the first black pageant winner. But when 9 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: a nude photo scandal forced her to cut her rain short, 10 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: the public shaming was swift and relentless. 11 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: Miss America. Vanessa Williams took off her clothes, and now 12 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: she's being asked to give up her crown. Within seventy 13 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: two hours. 14 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: Racist hate mail was sent to her parents home. Derogatory 15 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: graffiti was scrawled on shops in her hometown. She was 16 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: characterized as a slut in the press. As one cultural 17 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: historian put it, she became the pageant's own hester prynne. 18 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 3: But Vanessa Williams didn't go away quietly. 19 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: She would go on to make a staggering comeback, and 20 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: of the publisher who released her nude photos, she vowed, 21 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: I won't let that man destroy me. I'm Jessica Bennett 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: and I'm Susie Vannacaram. This is in retrospect. For each week, 23 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped. 24 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,639 Speaker 4: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about today. 25 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: We're talking about Vanessa Williams, who made history as the 26 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: first Black Miss America, but whose win was overshadowed by 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: a scandal that stripped her of her crown. We're also 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: talking about Miss America, the beauty paget that, for more 29 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: than a century sent a particular message about what womanhood 30 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: was supposed to look like. 31 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 3: Young, fin unmarried, and white. 32 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 4: Jess Let's take a moment to recap where we ended 33 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 4: part one. Yeah, so, Vanessa Williams has had this historic 34 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 4: when as the first Black Miss America. She's almost made 35 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 4: it through the year long term, and it's been a 36 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 4: roller coaster. She's had these amazing opportunities, but she's also 37 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 4: experienced some pretty explicit racist backlash. 38 00:01:58,320 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 39 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 4: And before her historic rate ends, Vanessa finds out that 40 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 4: the porn magazine Penthouse is going to publish a bunch 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 4: of nude photos she'd posed for as a model a 42 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 4: few years before she entered the pageant. Right, And it's 43 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 4: important to say that these nude photos were sold by 44 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 4: the photographer without her permission. 45 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, exactly, they're sold without her permission. And the 46 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: photos are also with another woman in a lot of 47 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: suggestive poses, which I'm saying only to note that there's 48 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: this kind of homophobic undertone to the whole thing as well. 49 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: And you know, Penthouse, the magazine, of course, really leans 50 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: into the whole Miss America thing. One of the headlines 51 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: is here she comes dot dot do. 52 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 4: Of course, of course that's a he gat frame it. 53 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 4: And so now we heard the clip at the top. 54 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 4: The Miss America pageant is basically demanding she turn over 55 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 4: her crown, and they've given her just seventy two hours 56 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 4: to figure out what to do. But it doesn't really 57 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 4: sound like she has options, right. 58 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't really seem like she has many options. 59 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: And so Vanessa and her family, and her publicist and 60 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: her lawyer, they're all hunkered down in her childhood home 61 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: in upstate New. 62 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: York trying to figure out what to do. 63 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, as you can imagine, the media is going crazy. 64 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 5: I can imagine. I imagine they are going absolutely nuts. 65 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 3: You know, this is the era of the tabloids. 66 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: So the New York Daily News headline says miss America 67 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: in Nudie picks. Some of the other headlines choice headlines 68 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: Vanessa the dressa that was real terrible and mess America 69 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: mess like mass yeah, and then another one there she 70 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: is dot dot dot in the buck. 71 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 4: Your heart really breaks for her, like this has to 72 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 4: feel so awful. She's had this incredibly rough, overwhelming year, 73 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 4: even though it's been exciting, to suddenly be exposed in 74 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 4: this way must feel terrible. 75 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: She actually, in her memoir describes it as feeling like 76 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: she'd been raped, Like it felt so utterly violating, and 77 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: she had no control over how the images appear or 78 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: the fact that they did appear. And what was interesting, too, 79 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: is that all of the press at this time is 80 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: then like going and doing these men on the street 81 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: interviews where they're just asking any old, random person what 82 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: they think. And so there's this interesting clip that I 83 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: kept hearing in recap segments of this kind of middle 84 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: aged white lady pontificating on what she has done and 85 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: what it means for black people. 86 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 5: I felt that she, you know, she had the opportunity 87 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 5: to do something very good for black people, and she 88 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 5: let them down. 89 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 4: Thank you, white lady for telling us how black people 90 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 4: feel about Vanessa Williams. I'm sure black people felt some 91 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 4: sympathy for her, at least some people did. I mean, 92 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 4: this is not okay when someone releases pictures of you 93 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 4: in this way. 94 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 5: This is terrible. 95 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: Well, and it's interesting too, because this, of course is 96 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: before the time that we understood what that meant. We 97 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: say now, like she didn't consent to the photos, but 98 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: people weren't using that language then. But one of the 99 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: interesting things that happens is that at this time she 100 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: had done this whole cover shoot for Essence magazine and 101 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: they had this big piece coming out about her. It 102 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: was really celebratory of her, and when the editor got 103 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: the news, it was too late to pull her from 104 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: the cover. So there she was in all of these 105 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,679 Speaker 1: negative headlines, and she's also on the cover of Essence, 106 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: which interestingly actually boosted Essences sales because of course it 107 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: was now this scandal, but it also hurt their subscriptions 108 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: because readers thought they were condoning these photos. 109 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 5: I mean, that's just ridiculous. 110 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course, not surprisingly, when Penthouse actually does 111 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: publish the images soon After Vanessa is given this kind 112 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: of heads up, sales for that magazine go absolutely wild. 113 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 2: While the photos may have ended her reign, they have 114 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 2: not hurt sales of the magazine they were pooming. 115 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: Penhouse, by the way, we should note, is an explicit magazine, 116 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: like much more so than Playboy. Playboy is considered in 117 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: this genre, like the tasteful one of the tour, and 118 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: over time that issue of Penhouse would become the best 119 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: selling issue of all time, earning twenty four million dollars, 120 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: none of which Vanessa Williams gets, of course, not that 121 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: she would want it. It's interesting because at this time 122 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: Penthouse this is like kind of its mo o. They 123 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: had done something similar to Suzanne Summers. 124 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 3: A couple of years earlier. 125 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: They would do this to Madonna a year later, and 126 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: then somewhat famously, they did this to Pamela Anderson, where 127 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: they would buy these photos from whoever had them or 128 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: leaked to them, and it didn't matter whether the person 129 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: who was in the photo had any say in it 130 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: or wanted them to appear. 131 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 4: Oh that's right, I remember we talked about that during 132 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: the Pamela Anderson episode. Okay, so they basically are creeps. 133 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 4: I mean, that's going to be my takeaway from this. 134 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 4: So this magazine hits the newsstands, what comes next? 135 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: As you know, the pageant is pushing for her to resign, 136 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: and Al Marx, who is the head of the Miss 137 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: America organization at this time, says, quote, she knows that 138 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: the photographs are totally inconsistent with the Miss America image. 139 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: I mean sure, And then he goes on to say, 140 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: as a man, as a father, as a grandfather, as 141 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: a human being, I've never seen anything like these photos. 142 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: I can't even show them to my wife. 143 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 5: I mean, why is she showing penhouse to his wife? Like, 144 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 5: don't do that then? 145 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: Or maybe do do that anyway. 146 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: But let me just say for those wondering, because I 147 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: feel like if I were listening, I would be wondering 148 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: what is actually in the photos? They are extremely sexually suggestive, 149 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: like she's simulating sex acts with this other model. There 150 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: is full frontal. You can really imagine how mortifying this 151 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: is for her. 152 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 5: I really feel for her. So how did her parents react? 153 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you can just imagine having to tell 154 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: your parents this is occurring. But her parents were actually 155 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: supportive and were in fact really opposed to her resigning. 156 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: Her father told the Post at the time, our feeling 157 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: is that she should continue with it. We feel she's 158 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: earned it. We feel it could be seen as an 159 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: admission of guilt of having done something that was wrong 160 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: and distasteful, and we don't feel that she did. 161 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 5: I mean, that's honestly, really nice. 162 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 4: It's good that she had supportive parents who really held 163 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 4: her up during this, because you know, in a lot 164 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 4: of cases, people's parents aren't misunderstanding. 165 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 5: So I like that for her. 166 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And there were people who supported her through this too. 167 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: I mean, once somebody becomes an underdog, sometimes peo will 168 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: come out of the woodwork in support. 169 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: So there were. 170 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: Those who took to the streets with signs that said 171 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: things like long Live the Queen and boycott Penthouse and 172 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: were protesting the magazine and really did stand by her. 173 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 5: Bow wait Bonga way. 174 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: Finally, after her seventy two hours are up, Vanessa Williams 175 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: holds a press conference to address the question of her resignation. 176 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 6: I would like to start and everyone here, good afternoon, 177 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 6: ladies and gentlemen of the press, and thank you for 178 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 6: your attendance today. 179 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: So she reads from a paper of her prepared remarks, 180 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: this is a packed room. It's happening in Manhattan. You 181 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: can see that she is charismatic even in the face 182 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: of these charges. Her voice is clear and calm. She 183 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: manages to smile and make eye contact. 184 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 6: As you all know, the Miss America passion is asked 185 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 6: for me to resign as Miss America nineteen eighty four. 186 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 3: Now with the time for my response. 187 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: First, she addresses how the photos came to be. So 188 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: it's nineteen eighty two, she's a freshman in college. She 189 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: replies to a model's wanted classify mad and when she 190 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: goes in, the photographer who's hiring is basically like, look, 191 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: if you want to be a model, you need a portfolio, 192 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: so I can help you with that. And so the 193 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: photographer offers her a summer job as his receptionist and 194 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: makeup artist. She had some experience in that, and she 195 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: says they had a mostly normal working relationship, but then 196 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: he would frequently ask if she wanted to pose nude, 197 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: and eventually she. 198 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 7: Agrees, based on his persistence and encouragement that I would 199 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 7: be a good subject and his assurance that the photographs 200 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 7: would just be for me to see. 201 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: I was ultimately persuaded to do a session. 202 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: So first they do like an artsy nude shoot in 203 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: a forest. These photos are never lead. Then a week 204 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: later he asks her if she wants to do another 205 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: nude shoot, and this time it's with another woman. The 206 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: poses in the nude shoot look like they're meant to 207 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: be simulating sex. 208 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 3: Each pose was set up. 209 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 6: At no time was there any spontaneous or ongoing activity 210 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 6: between myself and the other model. 211 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: One thing I want to note here is that she 212 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: does tell people later on, I know these photos look incriminating, 213 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: but believe me, there was no lesbian activity that in 214 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: of itself we could unpractic. 215 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,239 Speaker 3: But that's what she says. 216 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: And he promised her that these would be silhouette style photos, 217 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: like you wouldn't be able to see her face. He 218 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: promises that he will not publish them. He lied, obviously. 219 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 6: After viewing the photos, I was enraged and I felt 220 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 6: a deep sense of personal embarrassment. It is one thing 221 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 6: to face up to a mistake that one makes a youth, 222 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 6: but he is almost totally devastating to have to share 223 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 6: it with the American public and the world at large, 224 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 6: as both a human being and as miss and earth. 225 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: She then goes on to thank her family, friends and 226 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: all of those who've come to her defense in what 227 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: she describes as the most difficult time in my young life, 228 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: and then she says. 229 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 6: Therefore, I do officially relinquish my title as Miss America. 230 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 5: In nineteen eighty four, to the Miss America pageant. 231 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: Good Evening, Miss America, Vanessa Williams has lost her crown. 232 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 5: NESSA. Williams yielded her crown. That's the glamor of pageant, Demanda. 233 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: He was stripped of her crown, that apparently being the 234 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 2: only thing she had not previously doffed voluntarily. 235 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 4: Jess, I'm curious did she have to resign? Are there 236 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 4: actually rules in the pageants that she had violated? 237 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's interesting technically not. 238 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: But she had signed a contract swearing to quote good 239 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: moral character, so that kind of leaves it to Miss 240 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: America to decide what good moral character it is. And 241 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: then she had also pledged that she had not engaged 242 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: in what they describe as acts of moral turpitude, So 243 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: the contract doesn't define moral turpitude or good moral character. 244 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: But I think that you can make the assumption that 245 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: they didn't think this was appropriate. 246 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 4: I'm embarrassed to admit that I do not know what 247 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 4: turpeitude means. 248 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 3: That's so funny. 249 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: I was just thinking of the same thing. What is moralude? 250 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: So clearly we need to google that. But I feel 251 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: like we get the gest right. 252 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 5: We get the idea. We get the idea. 253 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 4: So now she's resigned, does she go away quietly or 254 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 4: then what? 255 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: First off, she vows to keep fighting, which I think 256 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: is pretty interesting. There's this famous interview she gives to 257 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: People magazine shortly after all this happens in nineteen eighty 258 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: four that she starts by saying, I'm going to fight 259 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: if it takes my last dime. 260 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 3: I'm fighting for my life and for the people I've 261 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 3: let down. 262 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: Good for her, yeah, it is good for her and 263 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: to be able to say that, like she's not just 264 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: backing away quietly. But one of the things that is 265 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: so sad in the same interview is that she talks 266 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: about how she feels like she hasn't just let women down, 267 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: but she's let the whole black community down. And she 268 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: goes on to say, you know, I made a terrible 269 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: error in judgment. I know I'll have to pay for 270 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: it as long as I live. And then there's this line, 271 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: which I feel like is one of these lines I've 272 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: heard repeated and is one of the reasons why I 273 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: wanted to revisit this story where she says, but I 274 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: am not a lesbian and I am not a slut, 275 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: and somehow I'm going to make people believe me. 276 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 4: I mean, you can understand why she felt the need 277 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 4: to say that, but it's depressing because there's so many 278 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 4: layers of ingrained homophobia and like shame around sex in 279 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 4: that and you know, it makes sense she's a product 280 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 4: of her time. 281 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: But now we would be clear that there's. 282 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: Nothing wrong with being a lesbian, and frankly, there's something 283 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: wrong with being a slut, like your body, your choice. 284 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 4: What happens to the title, because you know, it's pretty 285 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 4: close to the end of the term, right, good question. 286 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you would think that they could just wait 287 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: until the following year, but they actually promote or whatever 288 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: the word is. In Miss America Land, her first runner up, 289 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: who is this woman? Sus that Charles also a black woman, 290 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: she assumes the throne and when she does, she says 291 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: she would represent quote the wholesome American image. So really, 292 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: putting herself in contrast to what people were perceiving. 293 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: Fanessa, I don't like to. 294 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 5: See that, Charles. I feel like she's being rud to 295 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 5: Vanessa with this little comment. 296 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: I mean, it does seem that way. 297 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: And then the pageant allows Vanessa to keep the scholarship money, 298 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: but she does lose a bunch of money and endorsement deals, 299 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: like that's a product of being Miss America. All of 300 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: these companies partner with you, you do endorsements, and so 301 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: she loses that money. She ultimately ends up suing the 302 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: magazine and the photographer, but they argue that she had 303 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: signed waivers allowing them to use the photos. 304 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: Vanessa says that's not the case. 305 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: But basically what happens is her lawyers warn her that 306 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: her life and her sexual life if she goes through 307 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: with this suit, would be put so firmly under the microscope, 308 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: either in discovery or in deposition. 309 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: And so she drops the suit. 310 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: But meanwhile, as all of this is going down, it 311 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: turns out this is great for Miss America the pageant. 312 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: They gain renewed interest. In nineteen eighty four, ticket sales 313 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: jumped by twenty percent, viewership briefly leaps back to seventy 314 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: four million, like they're thriving or in the wake of 315 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: this scandal. 316 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: There's nothing like a scandal to resurrect, righting suit. 317 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: Then you may think we're getting to the end of 318 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: the bad parts of the story, but it's not actually 319 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: over yet, because what happens is that more nude photos 320 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: come to go and again Penthouse Princess, poor girl. 321 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 3: I know, I know. 322 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: And basically this is from a shoot from around the 323 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,479 Speaker 1: same time, and this is a different photographer, another supposed 324 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: fashion photographer, And the scandal this time is that it 325 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: was kind of an S and M esque shoot. Vanessa 326 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: is in like a leather harness and handcuffs and the 327 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: photos are published in the January nineteen eighty five edition 328 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: of Penthouse. 329 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 4: And this time she thought she had all the negatives right, 330 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 4: she had actually like made the effort to get the 331 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 4: negatives of these photos. 332 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: Yes, so in this case she has talked about how 333 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: she was really uncomfortable midshoot, like she knew that she 334 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable. She cut the shoot short and she went 335 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: back a week later, I think with her boyfriend at 336 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: the time to get all of the negatives or so 337 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: she thought. It's interesting too, because all of this kind 338 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: of reminds me of these stories that have come out 339 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: more recently about like Terry Richardson and all of these 340 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: quote unquote fashion photographers who are men who co were 341 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: some models. 342 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 5: I was just thinking about that. 343 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 4: I think if you were not around for this era, 344 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 4: some of these stories may seem strange, like why did 345 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 4: she agree to do these things? But the reality is, 346 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 4: if you were a model coming up in the eighties, 347 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 4: you were asked to do these shoots, and if you 348 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 4: didn't do them, you were considered prude and sometimes dinged 349 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 4: in your career. 350 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 5: So it was kind of an impossible choice. 351 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 4: Like you needed to show that you were game and 352 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 4: you were playful and you were willing to take risks. 353 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 5: And so I'm sure she felt like she had to 354 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 5: do this. 355 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: She felt well, and she's so young, I mean, like 356 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: she's a teenager, so what better does she. 357 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, she is so young. 358 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 4: It's always easy to forget when we're talking about these 359 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 4: stories that these are nineteen twenty twenty one year old 360 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 4: girls usually, so is she really demoralized at this point? 361 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: She's so strong, she's actually steadfast even as the second hit, 362 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: the second terrible thing comes she's going to keep fighting. 363 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: In that People magazine article I mentioned, she says of 364 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: the head of Penthouse Magazine, and one thing you can 365 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: be sure. 366 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: Of, I won't let that man destroy me. And she doesn't. 367 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: She is adamant that she's going to fight for the 368 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: bigger dream for her, which always was to be in 369 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: the entertainment business, to be a singer and actress. 370 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 8: I feel at this time I should expand my energies 371 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 8: and launching what I hope will be a successful career 372 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 8: in the entertainment business. I feel my new career will 373 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 8: be the greatest challenge in my life. 374 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: This episode makes me love Vanessa Williams more and more, 375 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 4: like really inspiring that she did not just crawl away 376 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 4: like they wanted her to and hide. 377 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: And she does end up taking some time away from 378 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: the spotlight. Probably smart, But what happens is she makes 379 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: one of the greatest comebacks in entertainment history. 380 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: No so yeah, I mean, we recognize that song. 381 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams goes on to have a very successful career 382 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: as a Laddies pop star. Her debut album drops in 383 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. It has multiple singles on the Billboard charts, 384 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: and then She goes on to receive eleven Grammy nominations. 385 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: She enters stage and film, she becomes a television act like, 386 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 1: she's nominated for four Emmys and Tony all sorts of accolades, 387 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: really really successful. She performs a song in Pocahontas, which 388 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: then ended up winning the Academy Award for Best Original Song. 389 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 4: I just want to say that it's kind of amazing 390 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 4: that she went from being dethroned to appearing in a 391 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 4: Disney movie like I am right, No, it really is 392 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 4: totally turned things around. 393 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: It's so interesting to think about what allows someone to 394 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: move past a thing that happened in this era where 395 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: we didn't let women move past things, and what doesn't 396 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: and like, what are the small differences that allowed her 397 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: to seemingly really move on from this and become like 398 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: a huge star on Ugly Betty. 399 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: I remember loving her character willem. 400 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 4: Oh, Yes, I loved Ugly Betty even if I wanted 401 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 4: to express simply I physically can't so good. 402 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: And you know, if it isn't already clear, Vanessa really 403 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: is a multifaceted talent. You know, she's on Broadway, she 404 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: does mainstream TV. She's a singer, she has. 405 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 3: Gone on to write books. 406 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: She really is doing everything that she set out to 407 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: do and said she would. 408 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 4: And I think it's partially just who she is, right, 409 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 4: I mean, she is someone who refuses to be torn down. 410 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,479 Speaker 4: I mean there is something really amazing about that. 411 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: And actually she kind of acknowledges that later, like in 412 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six she gets a Career Achievement prize and 413 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: she says in her speech, I knew once the deat settled, 414 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: I would ultimately get the chance to do what I 415 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: do best. 416 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: And she really she did. 417 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 5: Yes, Vanessa William's hero. 418 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: Also, who needs Miss America anyway? 419 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, she really didn't need Miss America. In fact, she 420 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 4: rose from those ashes and was able to never look back, right. 421 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: Well, okay, kind of, except that she does go back 422 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: many years later, basically as Vanessa's career rises, Miss America's 423 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: currency stock whatever you want to call it, plat interest, 424 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: not surprisingly recently, thirty two years after her crowning and 425 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: dethroning in twenty fifteen, Miss America actually invites her back 426 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: to be a judge. 427 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 5: Oh my god, that's isn't that sunny? So funny? And 428 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 5: also that must have felt so good. 429 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: I wonder what was going through her mind when she 430 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 3: was deciding whether or not. 431 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: To accept right, And actually it ended up causing like 432 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: its own mini scandal because the question was whether she 433 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: would apologize to them no, or if the organization would 434 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: apologize to her. 435 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: I'm like how that would play out. 436 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 5: Oh my god. 437 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: When she does finally get up on stage at the 438 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen pageant, it must have been so validating. Sam Haskell, 439 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: who then was the pageant's CEO, apologizes to her and 440 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: to her mother, who is in the audience. 441 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 9: You have lived your life in grace and dignity, and 442 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 9: never was it more evident than during the events of 443 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 9: nineteen eighty four when you resigned. Though none of us 444 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 9: currently in the organization were involved in on behalf of 445 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 9: today's organization, I want to apologize to you. 446 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 3: And to your mother, Miss Helen Williams. I really am 447 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 3: so happy right now. 448 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 5: I love it. I didn't know anything. 449 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: About this, and I love it like the ultimate vindication 450 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: a little bit. 451 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 10: Yes, she gets her revenge. 452 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 5: So you've been to Miss America? 453 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 3: Right? 454 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 5: Was that the year you went? 455 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 3: Yes, I have been to Miss America. 456 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 5: I love it. 457 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: It was Actually it's one of the most fun things 458 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: I've met I've remembered I would go. Sometimes you just 459 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: get to go on a reporting trip, but it's like, ah, 460 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: this is why I do this, And Miss America was 461 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: that for me. 462 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 5: Yes, I love a weird reporting trip. 463 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: It was not the year that Vanessa Lyms came back. 464 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: It was a couple of years later, but it was 465 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: interesting because so she appears, and then a year or 466 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: so later is when the me too movement begins, and 467 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: so by the time I'm going is when this really 468 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: complex conversation is happening in the culture about what is 469 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: appropriate and what is appropriate when it comes to even 470 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: something as seemingly silly as a beauty path. There's all 471 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: this discussion around whether beauty pageants should exist at all, 472 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: if swimsuits should be allowed. Is that objectification? And then 473 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: actually that year that I went, Gretchen Carlson, she is 474 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: the woman who successfully sued Fox News for sexual harassment 475 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: the former newscast, and also America had taken over for 476 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: that guy I mentioned earlier, Sam Haskell, who had gotten 477 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: in trouble for sending lude emails about the contestants Natchurally, 478 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: but of course. 479 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 4: There's always a bad man somewhere in the shadows whenever 480 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 4: we're talking about anything. 481 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 5: So, what was it, like? 482 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 3: Tell me everything. It's on the Atlantic City Boardwalk. 483 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: It's in this huge stadium, and I'm kind of expecting 484 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: it to be glitzy and glam and it is not that. 485 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: It's pretty dark, like literally dark, and also feels kind 486 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: of dark. 487 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 3: There's not very many people there. 488 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: At one point, I'm sort of poking around trying to 489 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: get a sense of the place, and I go down 490 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: this long hallway that's sort of the backstage area of 491 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: any stadium, and I come across the actual office to 492 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: the Miss America headquarters and it has like a sad 493 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: piece of paper identifying itself. It's like this dark, dingy 494 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: office with like gray, kind of dirty carpets. It's all 495 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: pretty run down, and Atlantic City has had financial trouble 496 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: and is pretty run down too, So they were so 497 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: desperate for people to come to the event itself that 498 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: people were handing out flyers to like random passerbys on 499 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: the street to go for free. 500 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 3: Tickets to fill empty seats. 501 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: And the flyers said, all you need to do is 502 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: get dressed up really nice and show up to board wall. 503 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's time has passed. 504 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 4: Like I think it might be time to accept that 505 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 4: Miss America's time has passed. 506 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: It really is right, and so I mean, and that 507 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: was really why I was there in the first place. 508 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: It was like they were attempting to rebrand for the 509 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: modern era. 510 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: And so what did that mean? 511 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: Well, for starters, there was a lot of linguistic terminology 512 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: change happening. So it was no longer being called a 513 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: pageant this year, it was being called a competition. The 514 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: participants were no longer participants or contestants. They were candidates 515 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: run running for office, yes, and they were interviewing for 516 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: the job of I was really framed as a job. 517 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 4: I'm always interviewing with vasilin on my teeth and like 518 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 4: a see exactly. 519 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: They had gotten rid of the runway and the word 520 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: miss had actually been stripped from the sashes, so normally 521 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: it's like Miss Washington, miss New York, so it would 522 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: just say New York. But each sash did also still 523 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: have a little pocket for your lipstick. 524 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 5: Go oh, I never knew that sashes had that. That's 525 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 5: actually very functional. 526 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: And then of course, as I mentioned, there were no 527 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: swimsuits like that was really the big change, And so 528 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: when Gretchen Carlson, who was then the head of the organization, 529 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: would talk about it, she'd be like, this is a 530 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: place where we can highlight diverse and inclusive and empowered 531 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: candidates and leaders. 532 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 3: They're beautiful inside and that. 533 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 5: I was like, oh this, Yes, they're beautiful inside and out. 534 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 5: But we're still gonna pick the most beautiful. 535 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 3: Right though, I do. 536 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I went in with a 537 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: lot of stereotypes about Miss America, many of which we 538 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: have probably expressed here thiscast. 539 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: But these women were really impressive, I must say. 540 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: And they were impressive not just because they were literal neuroscientists. 541 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: They were like Harvard software developers who work for Microsoft, 542 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: woman who worked in STEM. One of them had started 543 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: a cancer organization. They talked about growing up with incarcerated parents, 544 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: and had developed nonprofit organizations to deal with campus sexual assault, 545 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: like all of those really impressive things. But then on 546 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: top of that, they could like dance and do ventriloquism and. 547 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 3: Play the harmonicas isn't one of the talents you mentioned clogging? 548 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 5: Do some of them do clog? 549 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, I have some amazing videos from 550 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: this that I wish we could show. But yes, there 551 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: was a clogging episode. There was like one, there was one. 552 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 3: How do I even just guess? 553 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: It was like an interpretive dance with a ghost. That 554 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: does not clarify anything I was performing with a ghost. 555 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: I don't know, but it was all just incredible. 556 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 5: I also feel like the only reason I know about baton. 557 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 4: Twirling is pageants, Like I'm always envisioning someone up there 558 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 4: with the baton. I mean, it is really interesting that 559 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 4: such fascinating women are choosing to do this. Is it 560 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 4: for the scholarship money? Like, it's interesting that these women 561 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 4: who are going to Harvard or are neuroscientists are drawn 562 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 4: to this still in some way. 563 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of them are doing 564 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: it for the scholarship money and for visibility for their 565 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: like nonprofit organizations to cure insert specific kind of cancer 566 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: or other bad things. They really were very mission driven, 567 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: really fascinating, and I don't know, you know, maybe all 568 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: of these women had really interesting paths and they just 569 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: weren't able to express them during the time when Miss 570 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: America was popular, or maybe they've gone out of their 571 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: way to work people who have interesting paths. I don't know, 572 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: but what appeared to be much more progressive or what 573 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: they were aiming to have be much more progressive on 574 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: the outside was having a full fledged, as one woman 575 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: described it to me, civil war. 576 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 5: Oh on the inside. 577 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: All right, So if you were to imagine going into 578 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: a conference room in this giant stadium where all of 579 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: these state and local enthusiasts, like really strong enthusiasts who 580 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: have a lot of feelings about As America were gathering 581 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: to essentially try to stage a coup to overthrow the president. 582 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 3: They were trying to overthrow Gretchen Carlson. 583 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: I think it was just a culture war happening on 584 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: a micro level inside this organization. 585 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 3: Like they did not want it to choose. 586 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: There was like a real division about whether they wanted 587 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: it to change or not, whether she was the right 588 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: leader for it. In the week leading after the pageant, 589 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: they were like posters hung around town in Atlantic City 590 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: with giant letters calling Gretchen Carlson so fake amazing, It's 591 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: like fully. 592 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 5: Midol, I love a dark underbelly. I like it. 593 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: There was a blue sash with the words Gretchen sucks 594 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: that was placed on this statue of Miss America that's 595 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: perched outside the hall because it's been taking place here 596 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: for so many years, so people would go and pose 597 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: in front of that statue and like it would have 598 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: the sash on it. 599 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 4: I just want to say that I would watch a 600 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 4: scripted series about the war inside Miss America, because. 601 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 5: I bet you it would be hilario. 602 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 3: I mean, maybe we need to do that. 603 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 5: I'm in let's do it. 604 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: I wish I had recordings that we could play. But 605 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: basically I snuck into this secret meeting of the local 606 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: leaders where they were plotting this over through. Okay, but 607 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: it was so interesting because it was happening at the 608 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: same time that Miss America was just grasping for relevance, 609 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: and at this time, viewership was basically at an all 610 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: time low. They've tried moving in to different stations, They've 611 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: tried all these different th but like nobody wanted to 612 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: watch Miss America. They couldn't even fill the little seats 613 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: in the stadium we were in, and so I don't know, 614 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: maybe it was a bit of a last gas, but 615 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: I just happened to be lucky enough to wear Miss It. 616 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I do feel like that's lucky. I wish I 617 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 4: had been there with you. I can't believe you didn't 618 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 4: invite me. 619 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 5: So where is Miss America today? Is it totally off 620 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 5: the air now? 621 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: So I'm sure if you were to ask Miss America 622 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: enthusiasts question, they would take something really different. But it's 623 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: pretty much irrelevant. It's only live streamed on their website now. 624 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: People are not watching it. It did not air on 625 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: TV last year, and I'm not sure what the state 626 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: of it is, and I don't think people are talking 627 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: about it really. 628 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 4: It sort of reminds me of when we talk about 629 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 4: soap operas, like there's always going to be fans, There's 630 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 4: always going to be people who feel a real connection, 631 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 4: but there are just some things that don't maintain the 632 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 4: same cultural. 633 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: Relevance, even things with long interesting albeit problematic the word 634 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: we yeah and don't like she's on the show. Histories 635 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: sometimes have to get retired. But the good news here 636 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: is Vanessa Williams does't Nameless America. She is way past that. 637 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: She's thriving. 638 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 5: I know Vanessa Williams thriving. 639 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 4: That is the message of this podcast. 640 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 5: What she been doing lately. 641 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: So she has been a judge on RuPaul's Queen of 642 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: the universe, which is the Drag Queen Singing Competition, which 643 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: is very fun, very fun. She is in a Broadway show, 644 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: a recent Broadway show called Potus, where she actually plays 645 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: the first Lady. 646 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 3: It's an all female cast. 647 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: It was described as I haven't seen it, but like 648 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: bride'smaids in the White House are trying to keep the 649 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: president alive. 650 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 3: It sounds very fun. 651 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: And she recently turned sixty and as she told Jennifer 652 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: Hudson on her talk show, there is a sense of ease. 653 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 4: The older you get, the less you care about what 654 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 4: everybody else has to say. 655 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 5: This is the best. I love a comeback story. 656 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 4: This has been one of my favorites, so I feel 657 00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 4: like this is a great place to end it. 658 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: You know, as they put it in Miss Congeniality, she 659 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: is beauty, she is grace, she is Miss United States. 660 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: But I guess in this case miss America and also 661 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: screw Miss America. Before we go, I wanted to give 662 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: a quick shout out to two authors whose books were instrumental. 663 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 3: In our research of this episode. 664 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: The first is Margot Mifflin, whose book is Looking for 665 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: Miss America, a Pageant's one hundred year quest to define Womanhood, 666 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: and the second is Amy Argetsinger, whose book is There 667 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: She Was The Secret History of Miss America. They're both 668 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: fascinating reads and you can find links to them in 669 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: our show notes. 670 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 4: So, jess we talked about some fun reporting you did 671 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 4: on Miss America in this episode that all week long 672 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 4: you've been asking me about stories from my past. So 673 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 4: next week we're going to reveal some fun behind the 674 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 4: scenes experiences we've both had, right. 675 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: Like the time you booke Jessica Simpson for Katie Couric show. 676 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm finally going to talk about Jessica Simpson, which. 677 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 5: I know you've been dying to hear about. 678 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 3: I have, so tune in next week and you'll hear 679 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: all about it. 680 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 5: This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. 681 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 4: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 682 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 4: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 683 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 4: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find 684 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 4: us on Instagram at in retropod. 685 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 686 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 687 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 688 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 689 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 4: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 690 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 4: and at suzib nyc. Also check out Jessica's books, Feminist, 691 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 4: Fike Club, and This Is eighteen. 692 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 693 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 694 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharan 695 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 696 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 5: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. 697 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 4: Our executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 698 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 699 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 4: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are 700 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 4: your hosts Susie Bannacarum and Jessica Bennett. 701 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: We are also executive producers for even more check out 702 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: in retropod dot com. 703 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 3: See you next week.