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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Last

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Speaker 1: week I was at Harvard University with the great Naomi

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Speaker 1: Arescuez and a whole cast of other really fascinating researchers

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Speaker 1: who are all looking at this question of climate accountability,

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Speaker 1: and not just for the fossil fuel industry, but really,

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Speaker 1: how do we widen the lens of accountability? How do

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Speaker 1: we look at the industries that have enabled the fossil

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Speaker 1: fuel industry to greenwash? For example, where is the responsibility

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Speaker 1: of the pr and advertising industries? And that also what

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Speaker 1: are the other industries that have worked in lockstyf with

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Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry to obstruct climate policy, So the

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Speaker 1: automotive industry, the manufacturing industry, the airline industry, the list

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Speaker 1: goes on and on. In this episode, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: bring you some of the conversations from that event, starting

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Speaker 1: with an interview with Naomi Auresquez about her work in general,

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Speaker 1: and also the work that has fed into her new

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Speaker 1: book coming out in February. It's called The Big Myth,

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Speaker 1: and it looks at where this idea that Americans should

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Speaker 1: stop relying on or even trusting the government, and instead

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Speaker 1: rely on big business and the so called free market

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Speaker 1: came from. Where did this ideology come from? And who

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Speaker 1: does it benefit? It's a fascinating read. It's not out yet.

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Speaker 1: I got an early copy and it's really, really, really good.

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Speaker 1: So we got Naomi talking about some of the themes

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Speaker 1: that come up in that book and some of the

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Speaker 1: interesting research that fed into it. Then following that interview,

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Speaker 1: we also had a panel discussion with four really interesting researchers.

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Speaker 1: Doctor David Michaels an epidemiologist and professor at George Washington University.

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Speaker 1: He served as Assistant Secretary of Labor for the Occupational

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Speaker 1: Safety and Health Administration that's OSHA from two thousand and

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Speaker 1: nine to twenty seventeen. He was the longest serving administrator

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Speaker 1: in the agency's history. He's also written two books about

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Speaker 1: doubt and deception in science. One is called Doubt Is

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Speaker 1: Their Product, and the other is The Triumph of Doubt.

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Speaker 1: We also had doctor Jennifer Jaquette. She's an associate professor

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Speaker 1: of Environmental Studies at New York University, and she wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called The Playbook, How to Deny Science, sell lies,

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Speaker 1: and make a killing in the corporate world. It's fantastic.

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Speaker 1: We also talked with Jessica Wentz, a senior fellow at

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Speaker 1: the Saban Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia, and

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Speaker 1: doctor Jeffreys Pran, who's a researcher at Harvard who's been

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Speaker 1: working with doctor Uresquez for a long time. He's about

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Speaker 1: to start a really interesting new project at Miami University,

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Speaker 1: specifically looking at how digital and social media plays into

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Speaker 1: climate delay and denial. Those are both coming up right

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Speaker 1: after this quick break.

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Speaker 2: My name is Naomi Orescus. I'm the Henry Charles Lea

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Speaker 2: Professor of the History of Science, an affiliated professor of

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Speaker 2: Earth and Planetary Science, is here at Harvard University. So

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Speaker 2: I'm going to start now by inviting my friend and

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Speaker 2: colleague Amy Westervelt to come up, and Amy and I

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Speaker 2: are going to have a conversation for a little bit

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Speaker 2: of time, and then we'll take a break, and then

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Speaker 2: just you know what the run of show is. After

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Speaker 2: the break, we'll invite four more colleagues up to the

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Speaker 2: stage to talk about their research in this important area. So, Amy,

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Speaker 2: I was going to help the microphone you, but you're

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Speaker 2: ready have your own, so metaphorically.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Okay, So Naomi. In your book

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Speaker 1: Merchants Dat, you laid out some of this kind of

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Speaker 1: network of enablers. And now we're talking about kind of

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Speaker 1: widening the lens of accountability. Where do you think that

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Speaker 1: lens needs to be widened and how do we do that?

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Speaker 1: What do we need to do that?

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the things, thanks for that question. One

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Speaker 2: of the things we know from our research is that

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Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry doesn't work alone, and they probably

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Speaker 2: couldn't be as successful as they are if they did,

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Speaker 2: because they have experts in one particular thing, finding fossil

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Speaker 2: fuels and getting them out of the ground. But they don't.

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Speaker 2: The fossil fuel industries themselves don't have expertise in advertising, marketing,

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Speaker 2: public relations, and so they rely on a cadre of

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Speaker 2: other industries that help and support them, that help them

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Speaker 2: craft their messages. And they also rely on a network

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Speaker 2: of think tanks that try to make it seem as

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Speaker 2: if they're standing up for virtuous things like American freedom

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Speaker 2: or prosperity, when in reality, what they're really doing is

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Speaker 2: selling an incredibly dangerous and damaging product.

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Speaker 1: Right, and what are the kinds of things that are

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Speaker 1: needed to go after those folks too. What kind of

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Speaker 1: research is needed, what kind of thinking is needed to

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Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, Yeah, build build the kind

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Speaker 1: of evidence that we have about the fossil fuel industry

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Speaker 1: against these other industries.

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Speaker 2: Well, in this era we live in of disinformation, where

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Speaker 2: we're saturated by disinformation and by half truths and sometimes

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Speaker 2: by outright lies. Sometimes people throw up their hands and

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Speaker 2: they say facts don't matter, But that's not true. What

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Speaker 2: I like to say is that facts are not enough.

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Speaker 2: Facts are necessary, but not sufficient condition for people to

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Speaker 2: understand what's going on around them. But a lot of

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Speaker 2: this work does start with the factual information, knowing the

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Speaker 2: facts about who did what, when they did it, how

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Speaker 2: they did it, why they did it, and so a

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Speaker 2: lot of my work and the work I've done with

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Suprann and Ben Frant and others, is really to

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Speaker 2: lay out those facts to tell the story of what

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Speaker 2: has happened, so that we can really understand what has

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Speaker 2: transpired and so that we can hold the industry accountable.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit. This is, you know,

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Speaker 1: bringing together lots of researchers from different realms. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of encouraging collaboration and information sharing. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: how how that's necessary both from an information perspective but

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Speaker 1: also from a structural perspective that you know, to combat

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Speaker 1: extractive industry, you should maybe be collaborative and not extractive yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great question. Well, I think there's two things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, from a purely practical standpoint, we know that

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Speaker 2: this network of deception and disinformation is huge. Some of

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Speaker 2: our colleagues have tried to count them. I often, you know,

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Speaker 2: have joked that when I tried to make a slide

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Speaker 2: with all the think tanks that had spread disinformation about

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Speaker 2: climate change, I couldn't get it on one slide in

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Speaker 2: a READABLEK font. And if we include the PR companies,

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Speaker 2: the advertising agencies, we've identified literally thousands. I think some

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Speaker 2: of our colleagues have suggested as may as eight thousand

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Speaker 2: different organizations that have been involved in this project. So

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Speaker 2: this is huge. This is more than any one scholar

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Speaker 2: could study and understand on their own. So it's really

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Speaker 2: important that we have a collaborative effort so each of

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Speaker 2: us can take a piece of it. You know, maybe

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Speaker 2: the PR piece like Melissaaronsik has worked on, or you know,

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Speaker 2: the advertised peace, or the think tanks that I and

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Speaker 2: Justin Farrell and Bob Brule and some others, or the

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Speaker 2: funding streams. Bob Brule has done a lot of work

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Speaker 2: on the funding streams. So by putting these pieces together,

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Speaker 2: we can get a picture of what the whole looks

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Speaker 2: like and how it functions, what are the sources of disinformation,

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Speaker 2: you know, who's replicating it, reproducing it, who's crafting the narratives,

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Speaker 2: all of that, And then I think it's also important

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Speaker 2: to be collaborative because just from a practical standpoint, if

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Speaker 2: you try to do this work by yourself, it's too depressing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is really hard work to do because

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Speaker 2: you're confronting really terrible things. You're confronting people and organizations

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Speaker 2: who don't seem to care who gets hurt, who don't

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Speaker 2: seem to have any respect for truth or honesty. Basic

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Speaker 2: values and virtues that our parents taught us to respect

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Speaker 2: and honor are routinely dishonored in this space, and so

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Speaker 2: it's difficult work to deal with and sometime it's hard

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Speaker 2: to even understand how people can behave this way, and

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Speaker 2: so it's really important to have the moral support of

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Speaker 2: your colleagues, and also because I think all of us

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Speaker 2: who have worked in the space have had moments where

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Speaker 2: we think, you know, is it me, like, am I

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Speaker 2: exaggerating this? Am I? Am I reading too much into this?

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Speaker 2: You know? And then having colleagues saying, no, actually it's not.

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Speaker 2: Only is it as bad as you think, it's actually worse,

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Speaker 2: And then they show you the evidence and you realize

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Speaker 2: you are reading this correctly, you're not exaggerating, you're not misinterpreting.

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Speaker 2: Having that objective and honest feedback from colleagues it's crucial

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Speaker 2: in all academic work, but it's particularly crucial in this space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that this comes up for any academic,

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Speaker 1: especially any academics that do work that the fossil fuel

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Speaker 1: industry doesn't particularly like. Accusations of bias or you're an

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Speaker 1: activist or you know these kinds of things. How do

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Speaker 1: you deal with that? And yeah, I guess what's your

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Speaker 1: response to that sort of framing?

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Speaker 2: Well, my first response is that if they're attacking us,

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Speaker 2: we must be doing something right. I mean, when you

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Speaker 2: think about it, Xmobi is this multi billion dollar corporation

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Speaker 2: with armies of well paid lawyers, strategist you know, expensive

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Speaker 2: advertising and PR firms that work for them. And if

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Speaker 2: we get under their skin, you know, if they feel

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Speaker 2: that they need to undermine what we are achieving, that's

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Speaker 2: kind of suggesting that we're onto something. And so I

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Speaker 2: always take it as a reminder that you know, if

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Speaker 2: someone's trying to shut you up, it probably means you

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Speaker 2: have something to say, and also that you know they're worried, right.

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Speaker 2: I think they're worried because they know that they have

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Speaker 2: done something wrong. They know they're selling a dangerous and

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Speaker 2: deadly product. They know that they have worked for thirty

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Speaker 2: years to stop meaningful action to transition to a safer, greener,

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Speaker 2: renewable energy economy. They know they've lobbied Congress, and I

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Speaker 2: think they know this is my opinion, but I think

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Speaker 2: that they know that they've lied, and so they know

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Speaker 2: that there's a risk that they will be held accountable culturally, socially, politically,

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Speaker 2: and possibly legally. And I think they're scared. And we

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Speaker 2: know that when people are scared, they often you know,

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Speaker 2: do kind of desperate things. So, yeah, we get attacked

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Speaker 2: all the time. I try to, you know, take it

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Speaker 2: as fuel.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're you have a new book, coming out in February,

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Speaker 1: and it looks at, you know, the history of this

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Speaker 1: idea of so called free market capitalism and how it

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Speaker 1: got so ingrained in American culture to think about the

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Speaker 1: idea of, you know, trade offs between the economy and

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Speaker 1: the environment, or between the economy and you know, public

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Speaker 1: health and social well being, and also this idea of

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Speaker 1: it's better to rely on corporations than the government. Can

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Speaker 1: you just talk a little bit about what prompted you

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Speaker 1: to dig into that history?

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Speaker 2: Sure? And Eric Conway and I were writing Merchants of Doubt.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we found was that there was

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Speaker 2: this consistent pattern in the rhetoric of the fossil fuel

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Speaker 2: industry and their allies, particularly their ideological allies in libertarian

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Speaker 2: think tanks like the George C. Marshall Institute, in which

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Speaker 2: they would say that they were protecting freedom and that

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Speaker 2: environmentalist like you and I that we wanted to take

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Speaker 2: away people's freedom. Now, I thought that was completely ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I thought it was sort of absurd, because actually,

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Speaker 2: if anything threatens our freedom, it's climate change. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I mean, look at the people in Florida who are

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Speaker 2: displaced now, who've lost their homes. I mean, they're not free, right,

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Speaker 2: And then we discovered that they had taken that trope

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Speaker 2: from the tobacco industry. The tobacco industry had used the

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Speaker 2: trope of freedom to try to prevent government regulation of

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Speaker 2: its deadly products and to say, well, if you let

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Speaker 2: the government regulate tobacco, it's only a matter of time

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Speaker 2: before we're living under a Soviet dictatorship. It was such

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Speaker 2: a ridiculous argument, and it was so clearly, patently, you know, facious,

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Speaker 2: and refuted by so much evidence from history that we

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Speaker 2: started wondering, well, where did this argument come from? And similarly,

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Speaker 2: as you just suggested, they also put forward this di

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Speaker 2: economy that sadly many of us have brought into this

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Speaker 2: idea that we have to choose between the economy and

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Speaker 2: the environment. But I knew enough about the history of

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Speaker 2: environmental regulation and environmental activism to know that actually many

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Speaker 2: environmental regulations have helped the economy. They've generated jobs. We

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Speaker 2: have a line towards the end of Merchants of doubt

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Speaker 2: where we say, you know, we all know that necessity

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Speaker 2: is the mother of invention. Regulation is a very powerful

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Speaker 2: form of necessity, and we saw this in the Cleaner

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Speaker 2: Act amendments in nineteen ninety that were designed to deal

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Speaker 2: with acid rain. That when those amendments were put in place,

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Speaker 2: those regulations, companies came up with it with good technological

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Speaker 2: innovations to improve the efficiency of their power plants. So

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Speaker 2: we knew that that argument about environment versus economy was false,

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Speaker 2: and yet so many people believed it. So we wanted

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Speaker 2: to know where that came from. So it took a while,

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Speaker 2: All important things to take time. But now Eric Collay

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Speaker 2: and I have finished the new book that tries to

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Speaker 2: answer that question. Where did this idea that we can

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Speaker 2: you know that if we regulate the economy we're on

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Speaker 2: the road to communism? Where did that come from? Who

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Speaker 2: promoted it? Who promoted the idea that we have to

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Speaker 2: choose between the economy and the environment, And who proposed

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Speaker 2: the idea that regulation is somehow a threat when in

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Speaker 2: fact it's one of our most powerful tools to protect ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And so the new book is called The Big Myth,

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Speaker 2: How American Business taught us to loathe the government and

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Speaker 2: love the free market.

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Speaker 1: Just as you're talking, it makes me think of, like

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Speaker 1: I feel like in all of these situations, the free

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Speaker 1: speech arguments for example, or this. They often are saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, no, no, no, you guys don't want this,

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Speaker 1: when in reality, it's corporations that don't want regulation. Right,

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Speaker 1: So this idea that like regulation is bad for us

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Speaker 1: as individuals, well.

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Speaker 2: This huge amount of projection in this space. Ben Sander,

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Speaker 2: one of the first climate scientists who was really horribly

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Speaker 2: attacked by the fossil fuel industry and its allies, one

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Speaker 2: time said to me he couldn't understand all the things

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Speaker 2: they were accusing him of doing until he realized that's

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Speaker 2: what they were doing, you know, cherry picking the data,

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Speaker 2: misrepresenting the science, telling half truths, you know. So that's

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Speaker 2: really important to keep in mind. When you hear them say, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, Arescus is trying to take away my free

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Speaker 2: speech rights, you should get very worried that actually they're

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Speaker 2: trying to take away your free speech rights. And we've

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Speaker 2: seen this particularly in the big agg business, with these

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Speaker 2: I forget what it's called, but these laws that they're

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Speaker 2: like product deformation laws that you can't say bad things

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Speaker 2: about meat. I mean, this is shocking, right, How is

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Speaker 2: that even possibly legal for Corporate America to prevent Americans

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Speaker 2: from speaking freely about what they think about red meat.

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Speaker 2: And yet we have seen laws like that pass in

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Speaker 2: the state. So actually, in many cases it's actually big

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Speaker 2: industry that is trying to suppress free speech.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they're trying to expand it for themselves,

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Speaker 1: unlimited for us exactly.

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Speaker 2: And of course, as I always like to say, free

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Speaker 2: speeches and't free. It's very expensive. They spend tens hundreds

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Speaker 2: of millions of dollars on these advertising campaigns, these pr campaigns,

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Speaker 2: you know, these greenwashing ads. It's not on all a

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Speaker 2: level playing field. They have far more money to put

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Speaker 2: out their message than, for example, I do. And one

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Speaker 2: of the things we look at in the book, in

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Speaker 2: the new book is how much money was spent actually

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Speaker 2: on pushing out their ad campaigns, and it's it's probably

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've been able to document specific campaigns that

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Speaker 2: spend hundreds of millions of dollars on just one piece

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Speaker 2: of the story. So we're looking at billions and billions

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Speaker 2: of dollars that have been spent to promote the story

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Speaker 2: of American industry, the story of the so called free market,

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Speaker 2: the anti regulatory, anti government story. While US academics, you know,

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Speaker 2: while most of us. You know, we have budgets for

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Speaker 2: our science if we're lucky in the tens to hundred

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Speaker 2: of thousands, and often there's no money in it for

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Speaker 2: a communication component. So if we want to communicate our results,

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Speaker 2: that's something we have to do on our spare time

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Speaker 2: or on our own dime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk about some of the I know,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want you to spoil

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Speaker 1: the book for.

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Speaker 2: Spoiler, that's okay, spoiler. It's five hundred pages. There's no

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Speaker 2: way I could descrab it all day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you share just some of the things that

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Speaker 1: that were maybe some of the more surprising findings as

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Speaker 1: you started to look into this, Like what jumped out

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Speaker 1: at you is as something I don't know, you know

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Speaker 1: those moments when you find something and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is big, what was it?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that keeps surprising me

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Speaker 2: repeatedly is have the same people, the same actors, the

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Speaker 2: same institutes keep cropping up over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: So one of them is the National Association of Manufacturers.

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Speaker 2: This is a trade group that represents manufacturing industry in America.

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Speaker 2: And I should start by saying, I like manufacturing. I'm

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Speaker 2: in favor of manufacturing jobs. Someone manufactured my shoes and

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Speaker 2: this microphone, so I'm not anti manufacturing, but NAM is

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Speaker 2: anti climate science. And they have been involved in numerous

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Speaker 2: amikas briefs on court cases trying to stop policy action

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Speaker 2: on climate change. They have partnered with organizations that have

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Speaker 2: spread disinformation about climate science. And they were one of

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Speaker 2: the original members of the Global Climate Coalition, which in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties worked actively, consciously and by their own admission,

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Speaker 2: to stop the United States from ratifying the Kyoto Protocol

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Speaker 2: to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. So this

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Speaker 2: is a group that has been extremely active in the

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Speaker 2: anti climate science space. In the new book, we track

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Speaker 2: them all the way back to arguments over child labor

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Speaker 2: in the early part of the twentieth century. Now you

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Speaker 2: might say today, who in the world would defend child labor.

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Speaker 2: Who in the world would think that it was fine

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Speaker 2: for a five year old to work in a textile

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Speaker 2: mill up the road in Lowell, Massachusetts. And the answer is,

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Speaker 2: in the early twentieth century, the National Association Manufacturers thought that,

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Speaker 2: and not just thought that, but actively lobbied against child

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Speaker 2: labor bills.

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Speaker 1: Wow Wow, and I feel like they're also one of

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Speaker 1: the few organizations that has never stopped denying climate science, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: they never really.

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Speaker 2: So far as I know. I mean, if they've ever

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Speaker 2: made a public statement acknowledging that climate change is real

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Speaker 2: and caused by people accepting the science, I'm not aware

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Speaker 2: of that. If they would do that, I would be

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Speaker 2: very happy to tweet it.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about I don't know,

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Speaker 1: the sort of acceleration of all of this free market

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Speaker 1: stuff post World War Two? What was going on? And

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Speaker 1: you know, why why did we see such an explosion

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Speaker 1: of it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the big questions that comes up often,

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Speaker 2: you know, is am I against capitalism? Where is this

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Speaker 2: book manifesto against capitalism? And the answer to that is no,

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Speaker 2: because one of the interesting things we see in this

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Speaker 2: story is that, well, capitalism has been around for you know,

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Speaker 2: since at least we can say, the early eighteenth century,

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Speaker 2: and it's evolved and changed a lot during that time.

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Speaker 2: So the capitalism of Adam Smith is not the capitalism

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Speaker 2: of global finance that we have today. And so one

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Speaker 2: of the things we were interested in our book is

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Speaker 2: how certain kinds of arguments came to the fore really

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Speaker 2: only since about the nineteen seventies onward. Often people will

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Speaker 2: mark the administration of Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom

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Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan here in the United States is kind of

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Speaker 2: a turning point where a set of ideas that until

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Speaker 2: that had been considered pretty not mainstream, pretty outlier, ideas

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Speaker 2: that we could just trust markets to solve our problems,

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Speaker 2: we didn't need the government to remedy market failure. You know,

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties, very few people thought that was

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Speaker 2: a credible argument. John Maynard Kanes famously said, Laissey Fair

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Speaker 2: is dead. I mean, nobody thought during the Great Depression.

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't say nobody. There were people who thought that,

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Speaker 2: but very few people could stand up in the depths

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Speaker 2: of the Great Depression and say, oh, oh, it's all fine,

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Speaker 2: just leave it all to the magic the marketplace. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Herbert Hoover tried to say that, and we know what

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Speaker 2: happened to him, so right, he lost his bid for reelection.

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Speaker 2: So that idea, the idea that somehow markets would solve

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Speaker 2: all our problems, that was really discredited after the Great Depression.

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Speaker 2: But there was a group of thinkers financed by American business,

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Speaker 2: and we document this in the new book, who worked

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Speaker 2: really hard to resurrect let's say, fairy economics. They didn't

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Speaker 2: call it that, they gave it a new name. They

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Speaker 2: called it a few different things. Sometimes they didn't call

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Speaker 2: it anything. Sometimes they just called it Americanism or the

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Speaker 2: American way of life, patriotism, right. So they put a

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Speaker 2: lot of nice sounding language on it, but most people

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Speaker 2: know it as neoliberalism, right, the idea that the economy

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Speaker 2: will thrive and do best if the government just steps

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Speaker 2: back lets the markets to their magic, and that any

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Speaker 2: government attempt to regulate or control the market is a distortion.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: And we've all heard those arguments. A law of work

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Speaker 2: was put into making people think that those arguments were right.

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Speaker 2: And in the book we document how a group of

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Speaker 2: American businessmen associated with the DuPont Corporation, associated with the

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Speaker 2: libertarian Lunau Fund, actively worked to identify and fund academics

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Speaker 2: who would then promote these ideas to give them academic credibility.

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Speaker 2: And not all of those academics, but most of them

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Speaker 2: were at the University of Chicago, and so they consciously

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Speaker 2: helped to build the Chicago School of Economics. So we

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Speaker 2: called this a kind of unnatural selection. They chose people

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Speaker 2: who had views that they liked, They fostered them, they

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Speaker 2: fed them literally and metaphorically, and they promoted them so

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Speaker 2: that these ideas then got picked up by journalists, got

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Speaker 2: picked up by politicians, and especially got picked up by

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Speaker 2: Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, and then implemented in US

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Speaker 2: and UK policy.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in this room can

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Speaker 1: probably connect the dots from there to what we see

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Speaker 1: in climate. But can you just sort of lay that

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Speaker 1: out for people, like, how does that lay the groundwork

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Speaker 1: for what we see in climate obstruction?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 2: Well, so the first administration where we begin to see

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Speaker 2: science denial is the administration of Ronald Reagan. Prior to that,

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Speaker 2: Republican presidents. You might have agreed or disagreed with their

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Speaker 2: policies or their world views, but they didn't deny science.

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Speaker 2: Dwight Eisenhower was a great fan and supporter of science.

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Speaker 2: He had a very strong science advisory committee. Richard Nixon

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Speaker 2: not so much. We know Nixon didn't really like scientists.

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Speaker 2: In fact, we know he hated scientists, but nevertheless he

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Speaker 2: didn't deny scientific evidence. But that changes with another did

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Speaker 2: gerald Ford. It changes with the administration of Ronald Reagan.

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Speaker 2: There we begin to see for the first time the

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Speaker 2: rejection of scientific evidence, and what evidence. Not all science.

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Speaker 2: Reagan was perfectly fine with biomedicine, but evidence, scientific evidence

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Speaker 2: that pointed to the need for regulation of markets, regulation

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Speaker 2: of air pollution, regulation of water pollution. And the big

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Speaker 2: issue during the Reagan administration was acid rain and then

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Speaker 2: the emerging problems around the ozone hole, but also the

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Speaker 2: evidence of climate change was starting to emerge. At this time,

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Speaker 2: the Reagan administration began to align the Republican Party with

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Speaker 2: climate change denial, that if there was science that showed

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Speaker 2: there's a market failure, this product, this legal product, is

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Speaker 2: killing people. That was a problem for their ideology because

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Speaker 2: their ideology, and Reagan was the one who put into

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Speaker 2: the lexicon the notion of the magic of the marketplace.

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Speaker 2: So the ideology was government should get out of the way.

433
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: Reagan famously said in his inaugural address, government is not

434
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: the solution to our problems. Government is the problem. So

435
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: the ideology is government is bad. Markets are good, so

436
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: government needs to step back, let the private sector sort

437
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: these things out. But now you have scientists saying well, wait,

438
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: hold on a second, private sector activity, whether it's tobacco

439
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: or it's air pollution from power plants and automobiles, are

440
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: causing these big problems. They're hurting people, They're causing sickness

441
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: and death. They're damaging property, I mean acid range at

442
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: a lot of property damage, hurting the environment, killing fish.

443
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: So that science was a problem for their ideology. And

444
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: so what we see is that Reagan oriented Republicans begin

445
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: to deny the science. And at first it's a little bit.

446
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: We see in Merchants of Doubt, we documented some interference

447
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: with an important report on acid rain, but then it

448
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: really begins to accelerate, so that by the time we

449
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: get to the nineteen nineties, when the scientific of evidence

450
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: of global warming has become overwhelming and we have a

451
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: scientific consensus and we even have a political consensus under

452
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, the Republican Party

453
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: turns against it.

454
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Where would you personally like to see

455
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: more research done on climate accountability in general? Or you know,

456
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: is there any is there any like golden goose dot

457
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 1: comment that you wish you could, you know, get your

458
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: hands on.

459
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: Well, one thing that's come up in our research discussions

460
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: has to do with demonstrating the impact of disinformation, denial, deceit,

461
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: all those good D words and one important G word greenwashing.

462
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: So we know this has all taken place. We've documented it,

463
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 2: chapter and verse. What's harder to know is what the

464
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,239
Speaker 2: impact of it is. It's relatively easy, I don't want

465
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: to say easy because my work is hard, but relatively

466
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: easy to go into archive, find documents, see what the

467
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: documents shows, see what people have done, and even to

468
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: know why they did it. Often the documents will explain

469
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: the motivation, the strategy, and so we know, and we

470
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: showed this emergence of doubt that a lot of the

471
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: early climate change denial was motivated by these pro market

472
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: what we call market fundamentalist ideologies, but proving the effect

473
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: it had. You know what did a person if I'm

474
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 2: at home in my house and I see a greenwashing

475
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 2: ad on television, you know what effect does that have

476
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: on me? Or in one of my earlier papers, I

477
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: document and did an ad campaign that had been run

478
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: by a group called the Information Council on the Environment.

479
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 2: And this is signing that many of us have found it.

480
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: These things names that sound very nice Oh, Information Council

481
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: on the Environment sounds like an environmental group and it

482
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: sounds like they're grving us information. No, it was a

483
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: disinformation group wholly funded by coal producers in the Powder

484
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: River basin in the western United States, and its aim

485
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: was to confuse people about the climate science so that

486
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: they would not support action. And we know that was

487
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: the aim because we have the documents where they say

488
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 2: that in their own words in black and white, so

489
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: we know why they did it. What we don't really

490
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: know is what the impact was. Now in this case,

491
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: we know they think it was successful because there are

492
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: actually some memos where they boast about their successes. So

493
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: one of the successes they boast about is how they

494
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 2: got editors to then write articles support you know, that

495
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: would support the ad campaign, Like we reiterate the message

496
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: that the science was unsettled. But it's it's harder, it's

497
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: much harder to know what the effect is. And also,

498
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: I mean, we know we've had thirty years of inaction

499
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: on climate change, and we know that, but how do

500
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: these different pieces fit together? You know, how much of

501
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: this can we pin on the disinformation from the fossil

502
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: fuel industry versus other factors like well, other industries that

503
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: have been evolved. It's not just fossil fuels. So so

504
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: we need more research on that. We need more research

505
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: that shows the ways in which differsinformation influences people's thinking

506
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: about problems and therefore influences what they will or won't do,

507
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: either in terms of supporting policy action or buying an

508
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: electric car or you know, re placing their windows with

509
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: with you know, better windows or whatever it is.

510
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, excuse me, I'm curious what you think about.

511
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: I guess what the solution to disinformation is. Right, Like,

512
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: there's there's this sense of, oh, well, we need some

513
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: kind of regulation. But every time you talk about that,

514
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: people but that's an infringement on free speech. So how

515
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: do you regulate disinformation in a way that doesn't get

516
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: people's you know, free speech hackles up.

517
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's a very good question, and again this is

518
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: something we need. This is there. We need more research,

519
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: but we do know some things. So first of all,

520
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: one thing that I remind people of is that what

521
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: Judge Kessler said in the Big Tobacco case, which is

522
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: that the First Amendment does not protect fraud. Fraud is

523
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: a crime you do not have a right to commit crimes.

524
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 2: So if by saying something you are committing fraud that

525
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: is not protected by the First Amendment, and judges have

526
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: said so. So I think that's a really important thing

527
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: for us to keep in mind and not to be

528
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, sucked into kind of agreeing that

529
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: it's a problem to try to call out fraud. No

530
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 2: fraud is a crime, period. Yeah, breathe on that. But

531
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: in addition, one of the things that that I've seen

532
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: in my own work and that other people have worked on,

533
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: particularly John Cook has done some very nice work on

534
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: this is the idea of inoculation is that if you

535
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: can show people, if you can explain to people, this

536
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: is disinformation, This is part of a greenwashing campaign. This

537
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 2: is a deliberate attempt to prevent Congress from acting on

538
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: climate change by undermining public support for environmental policy. If

539
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: you explain that to people, that can be very very effective.

540
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: And we talked about this in the film version of

541
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: Merchants of Doubt. In a way, the whole climate deception

542
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 2: game is a con game. It's a lie. It's like

543
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: three card monte. Nobody wants to be on the losing

544
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: end of a con. No one wants to be the

545
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: sucker that is suckered by all of this. And so

546
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: when you put it that way and say, do you

547
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: really want to be conned by the fossil fuel industry?

548
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 2: Do you want to be con into continuing to buy

549
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: a product that is actually going to bring an actual

550
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: material harm to your home? I mean, now is not

551
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: the time to talk to people in Florida about that,

552
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: but soon right or we can be talking about it.

553
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously those people need help in this moment,

554
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: but people need to understand. The American people need to

555
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: understand that that hurricane was made worse by climate change.

556
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: And of course, even as we speak, the forces of

557
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: disinformation are already out there trying to intimidate scientists. Oh,

558
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: you can't say that, blah blah blah. No, you can

559
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: say that because we know, first of all, that there

560
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: is more heat in the atmosphere, there's more heat in

561
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: the ocean. Ocean heat drives hurricanes. When you have more

562
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: heat in the Gulf of Mexico, you will get more

563
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: hurricane activity, either more hurricanes or strong hurricanes. That's science.

564
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: We know that this particular hurricane, well, fortunately scientists have

565
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: got a lot better in doing rapid what they call

566
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: detection and attribution studies, And already this morning we have

567
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: a study that says that we can say with confidence

568
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: that the storm was at least ten percent worse than

569
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: it would have been. And ten percent is a lot

570
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: when it comes to infrastructure, because again this is signed up.

571
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: Maybe some people don't always get right away. Ten percent

572
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: might not sound like a lot. You know. If I

573
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: have ten dollars and then you give me one more,

574
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: I have eleven, eh, you know, not bad. Rather I

575
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: have eleven and ten, but it doesn't change my life.

576
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: But infrastructure is generally designed to cope with the range

577
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: of conditions, and the range of conditions that we expect

578
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: to deal with is based on past experience. When our

579
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: experience begins to change, scientists have a technical term for this.

580
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: They call it non stationarity. Every now and again, I

581
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: like to throw in the geek stuff, you know, but

582
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: it's actually a very important concept. Stationarity implies that we

583
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: can assume that the future will be like the past,

584
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: and therefore the data we have in the past will

585
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: be relevant in predicting the future. That is no longer true.

586
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: It was a really important paper written some years ago

587
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: called stationarity is dead. So that's actually a great slogan,

588
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: even though it's a little geeky, right, yeah, because it

589
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: means that our infrastructure, which has been designed to deal

590
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: with a range of conditions based on past experience, is

591
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: no longer able to cope with what we were experiencing.

592
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: And we saw that in spades in Florida, and we've

593
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: seen it in the wildfires in the West. We've seen

594
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: it in so many different ways. So that extra ten

595
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: percent could be the difference between a bridge being stable

596
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: and a bridge being washed down.

597
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: That's it for our interview with doctor Auresquez. We're going

598
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: to take a quick ad break now and be back

599
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: with the panel featuring doctor David Michaels, doctor Jennifer Jacquette,

600
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: Jessica WinCE, and doctor Jeffrey Supran.

601
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 5: Hi.

602
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 6: Everyone, my name is Jeffrey Supran. I'm a research associate

603
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 6: here at Harvard and co host of this meeting with

604
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 6: Naomi Esquez. I wanted to start by taking us back

605
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 6: to twenty fifteen when journalists at Insclimate US in the

606
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 6: La Times published really groundbreaking work uncovering internal documents suggesting

607
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 6: that Exon has known about the basics of climate science

608
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 6: for decades. Xomobile, of course, to any such allegations of

609
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 6: wrongdoing with false and they challenged the public to quote

610
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 6: read the documents. They said, read all of these documents

611
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 6: and make up your own mind. So Niram and I

612
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 6: decided to take them up on that challenge, and over

613
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 6: the course of the year, we read the documents and

614
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 6: we analyzed them according to social science methods, and what

615
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 6: resulted was the first ever peer reviewed academic analysis of

616
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 6: Exomobile's forty year history of climate change communications. And what

617
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 6: we discovered were systematic discrepancies between, on the one hand,

618
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 6: what the company said what their science is said about

619
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 6: climate change privately and in academic circles, versus on the

620
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 6: other what they said to the general public in the

621
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 6: New York Times and elsewhere. And so, in other words,

622
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 6: our analysis showed that Xomobile misled the public about the

623
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 6: basics of climate science and its implications, and they did

624
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 6: so effectively by contributing quietly to the science, but loudly

625
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 6: to promoting doubt about that science. So this combination of

626
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 6: journalistic and scholarly approaches really seemed to awaken maybe something

627
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 6: a little new in the public consciousness about the climate

628
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 6: crisis Inside Climate News was a finalist for pubt Surprise,

629
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 6: and our own oarschool has read hundreds of millions of times.

630
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 6: You know CNN us that when questioning Joe Biden about

631
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 6: this stuff, and our work, of course, was just one

632
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 6: example of a really growing wave of journalism and scholarship

633
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 6: that has been nurtured by a small group of really

634
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 6: dedicated people, many in this room for several decades, but

635
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 6: which has exploded over the past few years. So today

636
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 6: there are literally hundreds of scholars, journalists and nonprofit researchers

637
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 6: in thirty plus countries. Layser focused on climate disinformation during

638
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 6: on interdiscipreine techniques as diverse as the history of science, sociology, geography,

639
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 6: communications science, computational linguistics and journalism of course, and collectively

640
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 6: we have learned so much. At its most fundamental level,

641
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 6: this search has shown that the climate crisis isn't just

642
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 6: a problem about the pollution of our atmosphere. It's also

643
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 6: about a pollution of our information landscape. But arguably the

644
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 6: dirtiest technology ever invented, which is the climate denial and

645
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 6: delay machine. So this is a well funded, well oiled

646
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 6: labyrinth of people and money connecting fossil fuel interests, think tanks, foundations,

647
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 6: pr firms, and front groups and all feeding into an

648
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 6: echo chamber of astroturfs, media, blogs and politicians. And in

649
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 6: today's time, I really want to focus on big fossil.

650
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 6: So that's the coal, oil, gas utility companies that represent

651
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 6: core cogs, but certainly not the only ones in this

652
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 6: denial and delay machine. And time and again, what research

653
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 6: by me and my colleagues as shown is that big

654
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 6: fossil is the new big tobacco. So what I mean

655
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 6: by that is that big fossil big tobacco. Actually, most

656
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 6: industries that produce harmful of deadly products tend to follow

657
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 6: the same four step playbook. First they know, then they scheme,

658
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,479
Speaker 6: then they deny the science, and then they delay action

659
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 6: with other forms of propaganda. And what I'd like to

660
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 6: do is to walk you through some of the past

661
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 6: and present of those four steps. So step one in

662
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 6: their playbook is to learn about the dangers of their products.

663
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 6: Simply put, the fossil industry has known that its products

664
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 6: could cause dangerous global warming since since the nineteen fifties,

665
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 6: for more than fifty years. By nineteen fifty nine, more

666
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 6: than sixty years ago. Twice in my lifetime, the American

667
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 6: Petroleum Institute knew that its burning fossil fuels could lead

668
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 6: to global warming quotes sufficient to melt the ice cap

669
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 6: and submerge New York. Their knowledge continued to grow, and

670
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 6: through the seventies and eighties, scientists at x on elsewhere

671
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 6: did really cutting edge climate research, warning their executives of

672
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 6: potentially catastrophic climate impacts.

673
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 3: And the coal industry.

674
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 6: Has likewise known about the basics of climate science since

675
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 6: the sixties, Electric utilities GM Ford and Total since at

676
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 6: least the seventies, and Shell at least since the eighties,

677
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 6: But instead of alerting the public or taking action, what

678
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 6: they did was stay silent for as long as they

679
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 6: possibly could, until what Excellon internally called a critical event

680
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 6: in nineteen eighty eight, when NASA chief Climate Scientists war

681
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 6: in Congress that he was now ninety nine percent confident

682
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 6: that human cause global warming was underway. Nineteen eighty eight

683
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 6: it was the year that action was supposed to begin.

684
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 6: It was the year that policymakers began to take note.

685
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 6: It was the year that hit the headlines. It was

686
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 6: the year that Time magazine called Earth its Planet of

687
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 6: the Year, but for that very reason. Instead, nineteen eighty

688
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 6: eight became the moment that Step two kicked in and

689
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 6: Big Fossil schemed devising a PR strategy straight out of

690
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 6: Big Tobacco's playbook to weaponize science against itself. So in

691
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty eight, Excelle set out to quote extend the science,

692
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 6: to quote emphasize the uncertainty, or, as a nineteen ninety

693
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 6: eight WEL industry member put it, victory will be achieved

694
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 6: when average citizens in the media recognize uncertainties in climate science.

695
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 6: So these plans put into motion Steps Streeen four to

696
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 6: deny the science and delay action with proper gander. And

697
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 6: from that point forward, in the late eighties and to

698
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 6: this day, oil and gas companies in the PR firms

699
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 6: that a bet them have waged a multi decade, multi

700
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 6: billion dollar campaign of lobbying, disinformation, and propaganda to sabotage science,

701
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 6: to slant the scientists, to confuse the public, and ultimately

702
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 6: to undermine policy to protect profits. So, in terms of lobbying,

703
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 6: between twenty twenty sixteen, Fossil fue Injures spent two billion

704
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 6: dollars lobbying Congress against climate legislation. They outspent environmentalists by

705
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 6: ten to one, and as of late twenty tens, climate

706
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 6: delign members of Congress received four times as much money

707
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 6: from the fossil fuel industry as those who accept basic science.

708
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 6: In terms of disinformation, much of the fossil fuel industry

709
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 6: spent the better part of two decades explicitly denying the

710
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 6: basics of climate science. And they did so both as

711
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 6: Naomi said directly, but also by paying contrarian scientists, politicians

712
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 6: and think tanks and someone who did it for them.

713
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 6: And there's basically way too much history to unpack here.

714
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 6: But the the kature I want you to have in

715
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 6: mind is, for instance, the coal and utility group that

716
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 6: Naomi mentioned running newspaper adds in nineteen ninety one claiming

717
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 6: quote non existent proof of global warming. It's the nineteen

718
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 6: ninety seven a campaigned by a front group for utilities, coal, railroad, auto, etc.

719
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 6: Attacking the un Kyoto Climate Protocol as we were discussing

720
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 6: for economics, but through economic scaremongering. It's the New York

721
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 6: Times vatorials by Mobile Exomobile, one of the largest marketing

722
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 6: campaigns in American history. The cold climate science a lie

723
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 6: they tell our children in the nineteen eighties, and as

724
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 6: confusing as a maze in the two thousands. And finally

725
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 6: it's you know, send us to Jim Inhoff taking two

726
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 6: million dollars from oil and gas companies while at the

727
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 6: same time describing global warming as the greatest hoax ever

728
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 6: perpetrated on the American people. Also, old climates now by

729
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 6: fossil free interests, as we've been discussing at this meeting,

730
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 6: has set back climate action by two to three decades,

731
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 6: and it's really turned what was a serious challenge into

732
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 6: the greatest emergency in human history. Over the past decade, however,

733
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 6: as public and policy makers have woken up, the industry's

734
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 6: propaganda has necessarily evolved from the outright blatant denial of

735
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 6: the past to various forms of propaganda that we call

736
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 6: discourses of delay. So one of Big Fossil's most prominent

737
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 6: notorious discourses has been greenwashing, which is when a company

738
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 6: talks green but acts dirty. So in twenty twenty, for instance,

739
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 6: Chevron put out sixty five TV ads a day. We

740
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 6: found that well others found that roughly eighty percent of

741
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 6: those ads contain green sustainability messaging, and that's compared to

742
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 6: the zero point two percent of their budget that they

743
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 6: actually invest in low carbon technologies. More starts of Equally

744
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 6: insidious is the discourses of individualized responsibility. As most of

745
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 6: you here know, the very notion of a personal carbon

746
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 6: footprint was first popularized by none other than BP. And

747
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 6: a third common discourse of delay is fossil fuel solutionism,

748
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 6: whereby big oil asserts the fossil fuels will be essential

749
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 6: for the foreseeable future. And since at least the eighties,

750
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 6: fossil fuel companies have been calling methane clean, and since

751
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 6: two thousand and six, BP has been touting an all

752
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 6: of the above energy mantra. And unfortunately, these rhetorics were

753
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 6: adopted by the Obama administration, when in reality, no major

754
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 6: fossil fuel company anywhere in the world has a plan

755
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 6: consistent with the Paris Agreement. The last thing I want

756
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 6: to say is that not only has Big Fossil's messaging evolved,

757
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 6: so too has their medium. So today climate deception really

758
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 6: has gone digital. And then you know, really social media

759
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 6: in particular has become the new frontier of propaganda. In

760
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 6: the run up to the last US presidential election. Ex

761
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 6: Or Mobile spent more on advertising on Facebook and Instagram

762
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 6: than any other company in the world except for Facebook itself.

763
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 6: All told, even as big Fossil's climate prep propaganda has evolved,

764
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 6: their end goal remains the same, and that's to stop

765
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 6: action on the climate crisis. But what has changed has

766
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 6: been the uprising and efforts to confront this and hold

767
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 6: them accountable for this behavior. Since twenty fifteen, almost two

768
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 6: dozen American cities, these states and counties have sued fossil

769
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 6: fuel companies and trade associations for their climate damage's denial deception.

770
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 6: And there have been first of their kind hearings in Congress,

771
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 6: in the EU and elsewhere, and there've been international documentaries

772
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 6: bringing this stuff to light. But most importantly, there's also

773
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 6: been a powerful grassroots and shareholder movement emerging under this

774
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 6: moniker of excel new and the bedrock of all these

775
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 6: accountability efforts. In fact, the only reason we know everything

776
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 6: that I'm saying right now is because of the work

777
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 6: of the researchers, the journalists, the advocates in this room

778
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 6: and beyond. You know, from salothing in archives to peer

779
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 6: viewed research, to journalism to expert witness testimony to Amicus briefs.

780
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 6: This community is the driving force for global climate accountability,

781
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 6: and now more than ever, as our planet warms up,

782
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 6: as humanity's carbon budget shrinks, as big fossils lobbying and

783
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 6: propaganda become more subtle and systematic, and as accountability efforts

784
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 6: mount to meet them, there is an urgent need for

785
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 6: solutions oriented research to expose the industries of climate to sect.

786
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 6: And in response to this moment, of course, we've been

787
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 6: meeting here today in Harvard, And in response this moment,

788
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 6: I think we're seeing a generational shift in research and

789
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 6: journalism in this field. So we're basically seeing a growing

790
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 6: movement of truly engaged scholars unwilling to accept the traditional

791
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 6: maws of academia that say that advocacy in academia are oxymorons,

792
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 6: a new class of interdiscipline researchers during a truly unprecedented

793
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 6: range of techniques and seeking out, rather than shying away

794
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 6: from impact driven collaborations with all the advocates and practitioners

795
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 6: in this room. I'd finished by saying that, as Climate

796
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 6: Scientists Employer Chikubas said a few years ago, we need

797
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 6: to shift the academic mantra away from published, published, publish,

798
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 6: to publish, communicate, engage. And I think that this meeting

799
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 6: here today shows that we're making brilliant progress, and so

800
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 6: my call to action is for us to keep going.

801
00:44:52,719 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 6: Thank you very much, and with that, I'll hand over

802
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 6: to my friend and colleague, Professor David Michaels.

803
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jeffrey. My name is David Michaels. I'm an

804
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,479
Speaker 3: epidemiologist at the George Washington University School of Public Health.

805
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 3: I served as the Assistant Secretary of Labor for OSHA

806
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: Iran OSHA for almost eight years under President Obama. And

807
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 3: I've written a couple of books on disinformation, and I'm

808
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: here to talk about disinformation and the enablers of climate

809
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: change and the acceptance of toxicity of chemicals and the

810
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 3: scientists who do that. So I have a couple of

811
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 3: slides here that I'm going to share. The basic premise

812
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 3: of my talk is that it has become standard operating

813
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 3: procedure when the company, when the corporation faces allegations that

814
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: their product is causing illness or despoiling the environment, isn't

815
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 3: to say, let's figure out what the problem is. Maybe

816
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 3: if they were Patagonia, they're doing that. But otherwise they say,

817
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 3: you know, how can we take this on, How can

818
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: we essentially manufacture uncertain so we can continue to do

819
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 3: what we're doing and avoid regulation by a government agency

820
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 3: or avoid liability related to litigation from people who've been hurt.

821
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: We often call this the tobacco playbook because tobacco did

822
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 3: so well for so long, untilled so many people. And

823
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: we call it that also because the tobacco documents they

824
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 3: are available allow us to document exactly what they did.

825
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: But it really predates tobacco, and it was done by

826
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 3: the lead industry, by the sugar industry, by the asbestos industry.

827
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 3: But we know what tobacco did. And there is, of

828
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 3: course the wonderful quote from the Tobacco Library that said,

829
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: doubt is our product, not tobacco, but doubt is our product,

830
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 3: since it's the best means of competing with the body

831
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 3: of fact that exists in the minds of the general public.

832
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: It's the means of establishing controversy. Of course, if there's

833
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 3: controversy amongst science, some scientists say this to say the opposite,

834
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 3: then the instinct of the public is to say, well,

835
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 3: we just got to do more research. We shouldn't do

836
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: anything until we really figure out the answer. Of course,

837
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: that's exactly what the book is to delay. The tobacco

838
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 3: industry spent hundreds of millions of dollars sending out information

839
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 3: essentially to point at other causes of lung cancer other

840
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 3: than tobacco. My favorite, of course is lung cancer rare

841
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 3: in bald men. But you could go through there. You

842
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 3: can find endless amounts of things in there in those

843
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 3: library documents. But what happened was a lot of the

844
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 3: same scientists who worked for tobacco then moved on. They

845
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: saw that there's there's a very lucrative business to be

846
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 3: made creating uncertainty. And I call this the Enronization of science.

847
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: Those of you who remember the Enron Corporation, it's essentially

848
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 3: it's a house of cards. It was a giant fraud

849
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 3: that ended up when it collapsed after some people made

850
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 3: a huge amount of money. It you know, many many people,

851
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 3: many pensioners lost all of their their savings, they lost

852
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: their pensions because this was a company that really wasn't

853
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 3: it was fake. And what this science is is very

854
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 3: similar to what Enron was doing. Scientists are hired or

855
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 3: their their firms are hired essentially to defend products, and

856
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: that's the model to defend the product. They call themselves

857
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 3: product defense. The studies they do have no important scientific value.

858
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 3: They really have no scientific value. They're there for use

859
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 3: in regulation and litigation. No one cares about these studies.

860
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 3: They're done for these purposes to use in litigation. You

861
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: would never cite one of these studies because they're not

862
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 3: of any interest in anybody in terms of how they market.

863
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: It's really interesting. The key thing is to think about

864
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 3: this idea of the loss of presumptive innocence. Many of

865
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,959
Speaker 3: us who you know, we watch all the TV shows

866
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 3: about lawyers, and they are even some lawyers in the room.

867
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: The idea that you know in the United States, if

868
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: a person's accused of a crime, they're innocent until proven guilty.

869
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: And so the chemical companies at the you know, fossil

870
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 3: fuel companies others have essentially taken this idea and inserted

871
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: into this discussion, not overtly so you don't see it,

872
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 3: but this idea is until we prove some thing is guilty,

873
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 3: it's innocent. But chemicals shouldn't be like that. It should

874
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: be the officer we shouldn't be exposed to something unless

875
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 3: we know it's safe. But that's been turned upside down,

876
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 3: and the product defense people know that, and that's exactly

877
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 3: how they they structure their arguments to show that we

878
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: haven't proven it dangerous and therefore we can continue to

879
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 3: use it. And that turns out to be a terrible mistake,

880
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 3: and many people pay for that with their health and

881
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 3: their lives. A couple of examples, I'll go through them

882
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 3: pretty quickly. When diesel fuel is burned, it puts out

883
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 3: from engines, it puts out particulates and a whole bunch

884
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: of other very nasty materials. We've thought for a long

885
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 3: time that these particulates are carcinogenic, but it's very difficult

886
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 3: to study that in people, because if you live near,

887
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 3: say a road, you're also exposed to a lot of

888
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: other things. If you're a driver, exposed to other things.

889
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 3: But a couple of government agencies realize that there are

890
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: minds where which use gigantic diesel engines, and the workers

891
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 3: the miners are exposed to diesel engine exhaust, and the

892
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 3: material in the minds otherwise don't cause cancer. So let's

893
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 3: do some studies in the minds. The industry spent a

894
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: tremendous amount of time fighting those studies, trying to stop

895
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 3: them from being done. But eventually, when they were done,

896
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: there were two studies done by the National Cancer stud

897
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: National Institute for Occupational Safe Health. To everybody's shock, I'm saying, ironically,

898
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 3: it turns out diesel engine exhaust increases your risk of

899
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 3: lung cancer. So how did the industry respond. Not by

900
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 3: saying let's make a clean diesel product. Though a few

901
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 3: companies Cummins for example, said let's make it a clean

902
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: diesel prict, most did not. What they did was they

903
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: hired scientists to say, well, those studies are bad, and

904
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: they really ran the disinformation campaign. They do something called

905
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 3: strategic literature reviews. You get some scientists together, they read

906
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 3: the literature and say, no, we don't agree. It doesn't

907
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 3: say that. It says literature really doesn't say it's carson agellic.

908
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 3: They did this study and another one, another study. Eventually

909
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 3: they got the raw data and they reanalyzed it. If

910
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: you give me the raw data from a study, I

911
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: can change the parameters around and turin a positive study

912
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 3: negative it's you know, it's epidemologia alchemy. It's all doable,

913
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 3: and they did it over and over again. A lot

914
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: of this was done by a firm called Gradients, which

915
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 3: is just down the road here in Cambridge, and that's

916
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 3: what they specialize in. And it goes on and on.

917
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 3: This was done by a company called Exponent. Another example Pfast,

918
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 3: which is in the news quite a bit. You probably

919
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,479
Speaker 3: many of you have seen the movie Dark Waters, which

920
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 3: actually goes through some of these studies and it's really

921
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: sort of an ugly history. When community residents in the

922
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 3: area of this DuPont plant in West Virginia on the

923
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 3: border of Ohio started saying there were some serious issues

924
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 3: with their water contamination, DuPont recommended West Virginia hire this

925
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: one consulting firm, Terra. He's run by Michael Dorson. You

926
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 3: may remember he was a candidate to be the Assistant

927
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 3: Administrator of EPA for chemicals, but actually Republican senators stopped

928
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 3: that because they knew of his work on pfats in

929
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 3: gen X, North Carolina, so they said, you cannot use him.

930
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 3: So his nomination was withdrawn. But he did a study.

931
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 3: Hold on, yeah, he said, you know, West Virginia, the

932
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: safe level of this particular pfas in the water there

933
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: is one hundred and fifty parts per billion. Now, DuPont

934
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 3: internally already was saying one part for billion is the

935
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 3: safe level. But we're at telefolks around there the one

936
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty parts of the same level. Then DuPont,

937
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 3: when you know, these things began to heat up. They

938
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: hired this film called Cheme Risk, which is still around,

939
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 3: and they based on that first study they said, don't

940
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 3: worry the exposures here. They estimate the exposures ten thousand

941
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 3: times less than any exposure that could make that could

942
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 3: cause any illness. You know, it's safe, don't worry about now.

943
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: While that was going on, because of these lawsuits that

944
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 3: you were covered in dark waters, and Rob Belle at

945
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 3: the lawyer, really mentioned to negotiat, DuPont actually had to

946
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 3: pay for a bunch of epidemologic studies done by scientists

947
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 3: that they didn't choose. They were chosen jointly by their

948
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 3: lawyers and the plaintiff's lawyers and those three world famous

949
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 3: epidemiologists to a series of studies probably the best studies

950
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 3: will ever have on sort of that sort of chemicals

951
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: in water, and found that PFAS increases the risk of

952
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 3: several different diseases among workers. It was testicular and kidney cancer.

953
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 3: There's some oio immune conditions that could have been going on.

954
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 3: The studies all showed p fats having particularly serious talks

955
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 3: of effects. But when three M in DuPont faced lawsuits,

956
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 3: they hired exponents of this case, which produced a literature

957
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 3: review saying, you know, the evidence doesn't support the hypothesis

958
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,720
Speaker 3: of a causal association between any of these chemicals and cancer.

959
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 3: They could just dismiss those studies they actually do. PUNT

960
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 3: paid for the National Toxicology Program said, you know, these

961
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 3: are presumed, but because of these human and animal states,

962
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 3: they're presumed to be immune hazards to humans. So gradients

963
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 3: again disagreed, and they filed papers with NTP saying the

964
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 3: human animal evens does not support NTP's conclusions. We should

965
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 3: downrate the hazards. And finally, this was a big one

966
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 3: for a case in Minnesota where the state of Minnesota

967
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 3: sued three M. They said, this is years later p

968
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 3: FASK contamination. Essentially, there is no health effect that's associated

969
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 3: with p fast contamination. Of course, you know what the

970
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: numbers are EPA recently essentially said there is no safe

971
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 3: level point four parts per trillium. So who pays for this?

972
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 3: I'll do this very briefly, not just people who are sick,

973
00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: but in fact a lot of these corporations they share

974
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 3: end up paying the price of this. You probably all

975
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 3: heard that Jane Jay has actually pulled baby powder from

976
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 3: the market. They no longer sell talcum powder based baby

977
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 3: powder talk based baby powder from in the United States

978
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 3: and Canada. They still sell it in India, of course

979
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 3: other places. The reason for that is there have been

980
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 3: lawsuits following a lot of studies that showed the link

981
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 3: between ovarying cancer and talk exposure. There was one case

982
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 3: where a twenty two women ensued. The total award to

983
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 3: the women who was twenty five million dollars each, but

984
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: the juror saw what Jane j was saying in their

985
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 3: internal documents and to they things like time to come

986
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 3: up with more confusion and really and they end up

987
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 3: getting a four billion dollar award. I'll just pass on this.

988
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 3: It was caught in half, but they still had to

989
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 3: pay more than two billion dollars because the juror said,

990
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 3: you know, this is a poll. We want to send

991
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 3: dupontum message. Jane Jay's market capitalization went down about fifty

992
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 3: fifty billion dollars after that. They're facing fourteen thousand lawsuits

993
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 3: actually more now and they have to pull baby power

994
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 3: for the market and they now you've probably heard about this,

995
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 3: but they're trying to spin off a company directly into

996
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 3: bankruptcy with all those all that liability to avoid having

997
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 3: to pay out any more cases of women with ovarian

998
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 3: cancer similar to glypha sate. You know, it was found

999
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 3: to be a probable carssling by the by r ARC.

1000
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 3: Monsanto launched a national international campaign to essentially say that

1001
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 3: wasn't true, but to go after the scientists who did

1002
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 3: that work. It was all this all was revealing lawsuits.

1003
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 3: You know, Monsanto has won a few lawsuits, they've lost

1004
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 3: a few lawsuits. The first case was you know, te

1005
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: hundred fifty million dollars and a billion dollar case. They

1006
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 3: were all reduced. But Bear is facing twenty thousand cases.

1007
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 3: And what's interesting is Beyer, which purchased Monsanto for sixty

1008
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 3: three billion dollars at the time Bear was worth eighty

1009
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 3: seven billion. That's been called one of the worst corporate

1010
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 3: deals ever. And you know, because Bear is worth fifty

1011
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 3: three percent of what it was worth before it borrowed

1012
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 3: all this money. So that's where we are, very very

1013
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 3: briefly here. How do we know these are product defense companies?

1014
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 3: How do we know what they're doing is not science?

1015
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 3: Go to the glassdoor one company, one worker said, this

1016
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 3: is a law consulting company, not a science consulting company.

1017
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 3: Don't expect to be a scientist if you work here

1018
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: or gradients. Some of the principal scientists have been have

1019
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 3: questionable ethics, have been called out for it, or sometimes

1020
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 3: you'll be seen working for evil doers and trying to

1021
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 3: make them seem like they did nothing wrong. So you know,

1022
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 3: the areas this is working are outrageously wide. It also

1023
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 3: has a big impact on how people think about science,

1024
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 3: because when you see sort of scientists who disagree, even

1025
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 3: though the disagreements are real, they're ser based in these

1026
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 3: fraudulent studies. I think it hurts how people think about

1027
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 3: science and how people response to science. So, in shameless

1028
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 3: self promotion, I've written a book on all of this,

1029
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 3: actually a couple of books, but this book, The Triumph

1030
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 3: of Doubt, Dark Money, and the Science of Deception, comes

1031
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 3: out in paperback next week and so you can read

1032
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 3: more about that. So thank you all so much. And

1033
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 3: I have the pleasure of turning over the microphone to

1034
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,959
Speaker 3: Jennifer Jacket, who has just written a terrific new book

1035
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 3: on that playbook. So Jennifer, thank you so much.

1036
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 4: I was asked about enablers of industry, and just like

1037
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 4: there are accountants right that help companies minimize their their

1038
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 4: tax burden and move my the offshore, there are a

1039
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 4: bunch of third parties to help these companies deal with

1040
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 4: scientific evidence. And we've heard numerous examples, and you know,

1041
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 4: occasionally these third parties are referred to as third party allies,

1042
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,439
Speaker 4: but I think that's a little like mistaking a sex

1043
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 4: worker for your girlfriend. The PR firms and law firms

1044
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 4: and even scientists who align themselves with industry would align

1045
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 4: themselves with another client with potentially opposite views if they

1046
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 4: offered bigger, longer term contracts.

1047
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 7: I mean, this is work for hire.

1048
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 4: And that's not to downplay the role of things like

1049
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 4: think tanks that Professor Reski's was mentioning, like the George C.

1050
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 4: Marshall Institute, which truly shares the fundamental ideology of the corporation,

1051
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 4: which is to postpone or prevent regulatory action. And I

1052
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 4: also don't want to downplay the role of trade associations

1053
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 4: who do so much of the dirty work for these companies,

1054
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 4: and they say things so the company doesn't have to.

1055
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 4: The Center for Consumer Freedom can call obesity a myth,

1056
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 4: so that McDonald's can say that it's taking obesity seriously.

1057
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 4: And the Independent Petroleum Association of America can launch Divestment

1058
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 4: facts dot com so that Exxon can stay in the

1059
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 4: shadows of the divestment debate. The American Farm Bureau Federation

1060
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 4: said in twenty nineteen that even if greenhouse gases are

1061
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 4: a factor in climate change, it's not clear if this

1062
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 4: is due to natural global climate cycles or other factors

1063
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 4: such as greenhouse gases. So you see a direct denial,

1064
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 4: really of the problem of anthropogenic climate change from a

1065
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 4: gigantic trade association of agriculture. But there is a special

1066
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 4: spot in the question of enablers for public relations or

1067
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 4: strategic communications or crisis management or advertising firms, or whatever

1068
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 4: category you want to put around these groups. And these

1069
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 4: are firms where a lot of well intentioned journalists go

1070
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 4: to die. Public relations are a big and expensive piece

1071
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 4: of the denial puzzle. And again I think it's important

1072
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 4: to remember that they are work for hire. They fit

1073
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 4: very neatly into Harry Frankfurter the philosopher's idea of bullshit

1074
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 4: that the essence of bullshit is not that it is false,

1075
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 4: but that it is phony. So bullshit may be true

1076
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 4: or false, and that doesn't mean that bullshit isn't disinformation

1077
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 4: that happens, and we know a huge mastermind behind disinformation

1078
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 4: is John.

1079
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 7: Hill who founded Helen Nolton.

1080
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 4: He came up with the whole idea of creating scientific

1081
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 4: controversy that David Michaels was just talking so much about,

1082
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 4: and he used that with the cigarette companies, obviously to

1083
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 4: challenge the link between smoking and cancer. Hilln Nolton though

1084
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 4: they did not seek any medical expertise, They didn't talk

1085
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 4: to scientists. That wasn't their interest. They were there to

1086
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 4: support their clients, and you see that language in PR

1087
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 4: all the time. We are here to support the client.

1088
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 4: But the main way in which I believe PR firms

1089
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 4: have been essential is in scaling the tactics across industries.

1090
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 4: So really the globalization of deceit and denial. Before he

1091
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 4: worked for cigarettes. John Hill worked for the Manufacturing Chemist

1092
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 4: Association and successfully prevented the government from mandating testing on

1093
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 4: the food supply for chemicals. And then he used the

1094
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 4: notion of scientific controversy, both with cigarettes a few years later,

1095
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 4: and then he got the Johns Manville asbestos account in

1096
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 4: the sixties, and then in the seventies he got the

1097
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 4: plastics account. And so you can see the way in

1098
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 4: which he can just use what he has learned and

1099
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 4: apply it across these very distinct industries who may or

1100
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 4: may not have been talking much to one another. So

1101
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 4: I think the PR firms really made the playbook a

1102
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 4: global thing, and they took the friction out of the

1103
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 4: sharing tactics. They are the arms dealers. PR firms provide

1104
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 4: the weapons for the companies. So in addition to the

1105
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 4: two sides idea hillan Nolton, they were pioneering in attacking

1106
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 4: independent scientific researchers. So when the eight tobacco executives meet

1107
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 4: in the Plaza Hotel in nineteen fifty three, they agree

1108
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 4: that they are under no circumstances, it's underlined in their

1109
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 4: document going to attack the integrity of the scientific researchers

1110
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 4: who have been leading the attack against cigarette smoking.

1111
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 7: They like war language.

1112
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 4: The next year, A Hill and Nolton economists laid out

1113
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 4: the options for handling the scientists who were making these claims,

1114
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 4: and the very first option on the list was smearing

1115
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 4: and belittling them. Today, attacking the integrity of scientific researchers

1116
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 4: is tried and trusted, and some firms even consider it

1117
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 4: a specialty. So you mentioned you know these product defense firms,

1118
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 4: and there's a great case of Syngenta using one to

1119
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 4: hire a biologist, Tyrone Hayes at UC Berkeley. And when

1120
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 4: he goes against eco risk was the name of the

1121
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 4: firm and publishes his result anyway, the company tries to

1122
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 4: disparage his reputation. They investigate his wife, they harass him

1123
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 4: both privately and publicly. And Professor Hayes is famous now

1124
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 4: because he refuses to sell out. The thing is most

1125
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 4: people do sell out who work for industry. They don't

1126
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 4: go against the grain. They continue to quietly publish the

1127
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 4: results or postpone publishing the results that the industry, as

1128
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 4: the industry would like. And that's great news for the

1129
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 4: companies and pr firms who are trying to create scientific controversy.

1130
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 4: Thanks to the work of Professor Zareski's and Conway. We

1131
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 4: know about the merchants of doubt in the twentieth century,

1132
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 4: a handful of fiercely anti communist scientists who created scientific

1133
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 4: controversy across so many different issues, and I really thought

1134
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 4: they were able to scale doubt in an interesting way

1135
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 4: from issues like acid rain, ozone hole, the whole nose

1136
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 4: and layer, and climate change. But today what I'm seeing anyway,

1137
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 4: is that the merchants of doubts tend to stay much

1138
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 4: more in their industry's lane, and they don't work as

1139
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 4: much across industries, but they happily work outside their area

1140
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 4: of expertise. This is common, and they seem to be

1141
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 4: motivated primarily by money more so than ideology, and the

1142
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 4: amount of it and the ease of securing it, as

1143
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 4: well as the amplification the industry can provide. So they

1144
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 4: are again tasked in the way that you described that

1145
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 4: for looking for alternative causation or questioning the studies, and

1146
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 4: they don't do it in a peer reviewed way at all.

1147
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 4: They can just tweet about it and get huge industry grants.

1148
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 4: So that brings me to Frank Mitlhoner, who's afessor now

1149
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 4: at the University of California Davis, and he works with

1150
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 4: the meat industry and Huvaveca Morris and I are looking

1151
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 4: into pretty closely. He got a little bit of funding

1152
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 4: twenty six thousand dollars from the Beef checkof program. After

1153
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 4: this two thousand and six report comes out of the

1154
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 4: United Nations called Livestock's Long Shadow, and this is a

1155
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 4: report that tries to quantify and estimate the global impacts

1156
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 4: of livestock on the environment, including greenhouse gases and climate change.

1157
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 4: And he gets this grant to challenge the report, especially

1158
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 4: the idea that the livestock emissions are equivalent to transportation,

1159
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 4: and he winds up publishing a paper in a journal

1160
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 4: that does exactly that. It challenges those transportation numbers. But

1161
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 4: then that year, that was three years later, in two

1162
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 4: thousand and nine, the University of California Davis releases a

1163
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 4: press release and it's titled Don't Blame Cows for Climate Change,

1164
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 4: And in the press release, frankmin Lohner makes statements that

1165
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 4: are in no way in the published paper. He says

1166
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 4: things like, we can certainly reduce our greenhouse gas production,

1167
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 4: but not by consuming less meat. And milk, and producing

1168
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 4: less meat and milk will only mean more hunger in

1169
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 4: poor countries. Again, these topics and statements are nowhere to

1170
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 4: be found in the actual paper, and the media covered

1171
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:25,959
Speaker 4: this work of researcher Vasily destenesc who has written about

1172
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 4: the astonishing amount of coverage that that press release Scott

1173
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 4: and it basically launches Frank Mitlerner as a climate guy

1174
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 4: and he starts getting a lot of industry money after

1175
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 4: this point, even though he has a PhD. By the way,

1176
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 4: in Animal sciences, what worked as an extension officer and

1177
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 4: is basically an arm of the meat and dairy industry.

1178
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 4: He now tweets under the handle Greenhouse gas Guru, and

1179
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 4: he spends an enormous amount of effort communicating that cows

1180
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 4: are not the problem. He loves to keep the attention

1181
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 4: on fossil fuels. Runs this giant center at UC Davis

1182
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 4: called Clear which is completely aimed at muddying the waters

1183
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 4: on the role of meat and dairy in climate change.

1184
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 4: It's also a model for other centers like ad Next

1185
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 4: that is being built at Colorado State University. So on

1186
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:18,640
Speaker 4: that note, finally, I just like to bring up the

1187
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 4: role of press releases, because I'd be remiss if I

1188
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 4: did not mention the media as an enabler of industry.

1189
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 4: We know about the two sides idea. I don't want

1190
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,760
Speaker 4: to believer that point, But I want to talk a

1191
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 4: little briefly about this neat study that Rachel Wetts did

1192
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 4: that got me really depressed.

1193
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 7: So we know reporters are very busy.

1194
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 4: They have to file stories quickly, they can't always go

1195
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 4: out and do original research, and so sometimes they quote

1196
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 4: extensively or even verbatim from press releases. So she examined

1197
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 4: seventeen hundred press releases from that were all about climate change,

1198
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 4: and they were from various agencies, including industry as well

1199
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 4: as NGOs and others. And what's really depressing is that

1200
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:10,640
Speaker 4: the industry press releases were twice as likely to be

1201
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 4: reported verbatim compared to the other kinds of institutions. So

1202
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 4: this suggests not only that press releases are so important

1203
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 4: as we know, but that there is actually an allegiance

1204
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 4: right between the media and the industry, because if it

1205
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 4: was just reporter laziness, we'd expect to see verbatim verbatim

1206
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 4: articles across all the all the kinds of different kinds

1207
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 4: of press releases. So the fossil fuel industry has a

1208
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 4: number of allies in the media, but not here in

1209
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:45,759
Speaker 4: this room, of course.

1210
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 7: So thank you Amy for the work that you do,

1211
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 7: and we look forward to talking.

1212
01:09:58,560 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 4: Hi.

1213
01:09:58,800 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 7: I'm Jessica Wentz.

1214
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 5: I'm senior fellow at the sab And Center for Climate

1215
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 5: Change a Lot Columbia University, and I'll be providing some

1216
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 5: legal perspective on accountability for the deception industry, drawing largely on.

1217
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 7: My work with climate litigation.

1218
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 5: So climate change is often framed as a collective action problem,

1219
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 5: and this is in fact one of the rhetorical tools

1220
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 5: that fossil fuel companies are now using to try to

1221
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 5: disclaim responsibility for the problem. And it can have a

1222
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 5: significant effect on how we can sceptualize legal responsibility for

1223
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 5: greenhouse gas mitigation and for climate damages. And for many

1224
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 5: years the focus has been on government obligations. This is

1225
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 5: reflected in the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change as

1226
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:43,600
Speaker 5: well as policies and litigation strategies. And there's certainly some

1227
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 5: truth to this. As Jennifer pointed out, bullshit can have

1228
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 5: a truthful element. I mean, climate change is a collective

1229
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 5: action problem. And we do need governments to step up

1230
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 5: and do their part, but it's not the whole truth.

1231
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 5: The reality is that there are these individuals and corporations

1232
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 5: that have intentionally exhasted or rated the climate crisis. In

1233
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 5: some cases, you might even say they manufactured the crisis,

1234
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,639
Speaker 5: all for primarily financial profit, in some cases ideological reasons,

1235
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 5: and one of their primary strategies, as we've heard today,

1236
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 5: has been to spread disinformation about climate change.

1237
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 7: And it's not just fossil fuel companies.

1238
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 5: There's an entire enabling network of as we've heard, pr firms,

1239
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 5: consulting firms, trade associations, even the media, and politicians. And

1240
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:31,639
Speaker 5: this sort of behavior is so clearly unethical and socially harmful,

1241
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,639
Speaker 5: and so there is a compelling need for some sort

1242
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 5: of mechanisms by which we can establish accountability for public deception.

1243
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:42,560
Speaker 5: Litigation is one possible pathway through which we may be

1244
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 5: able to establish that accountability, and there has recently been

1245
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 5: significant growth in lawsuits aimed at holding fossil fuel companies

1246
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 5: as well as some other types of industry actors accountable

1247
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 5: for not just the manufacture.

1248
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 7: And sale of fossil fuels, or for activities.

1249
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 5: That generate emissions directly, but also for deceiving the public

1250
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 5: about the harms of climate change. Some of the fossil

1251
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:10,560
Speaker 5: fuel lawsuits also notably include API as a defendant, and

1252
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 5: so there is to some extent litigation aimed at getting

1253
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 5: it at least one of these enablers. So the litigants

1254
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 5: are experimenting with different legal theories. Here in the US,

1255
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 5: we have state municipal governments that are using tort law

1256
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 5: and consumer protection law trying to establish liability on the

1257
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 5: part of fossil fuel companies for their deception, and they

1258
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 5: are drawing on the strategies used in litigation involving disinformation

1259
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 5: about tobacco, which has also recently been adapted to cases

1260
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:41,480
Speaker 5: involving other types of harmful products and disinformation, including opioids

1261
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 5: and lead paint. And outside of the US, we have

1262
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 5: some human rights lawsuits that are proceeding, and there are

1263
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 5: also some cases that involve more discrete questions about corporate

1264
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 5: disclosures and fiduciary obligations to discrete groups such as shareholders

1265
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 5: and investors. Some of the legal approaches that are being

1266
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 5: tested in these cases are still As I mentioned, this

1267
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:05,440
Speaker 5: is somewhat experimented.

1268
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 7: We don't know.

1269
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 5: Exactly whether and how these cases are going to proceed,

1270
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 5: but this experimentation is part of how legal systems and

1271
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 5: legal norms develop, and if and when the climate cases

1272
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 5: do make it to trial and if we receive final

1273
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 5: verdicts from the courts, this could help shape emerging legal

1274
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,920
Speaker 5: norms about this idea of legal obligations to not deceive

1275
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 5: the public. So there are a number of factual and

1276
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 5: legal hurdles that the plaintiffs are going to have to

1277
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 5: overcome in these cases.

1278
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 7: I think they're actually in pretty good shape when.

1279
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 5: It comes to proving sort of their core argument that

1280
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 5: major fossil fuel companies like Exon intentionally deceive the public

1281
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 5: about climate change, and that is due to the efforts

1282
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 5: of journalists and social science, social scientists, historians, researchers, all

1283
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 5: kinds of people who have been working so hard in

1284
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 5: this space.

1285
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 7: We now have this very compelling.

1286
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 5: Narrative of how these companies conducted their own research on

1287
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 5: climate change, about the risks of climate change, and then

1288
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,560
Speaker 5: intentionally deceive the public. And they also spread disinformation not

1289
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 5: only about climate science, but about the efficacy and cost

1290
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 5: of climate policies, and more recently, their main strategy has been,

1291
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 5: as we heard, greenwashing their products and activities. At this point,

1292
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 5: the evidence is so strong, at least against certain defendants

1293
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 5: like Exxon, that it's hard to imagine how a reasonable

1294
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 5: FactFinder could reach any conclusion other than that these companies

1295
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 5: intentionally deceive the public about the facts of climate change

1296
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 5: in order to delay climate action.

1297
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 7: That being said, I don't mean to imply that.

1298
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 5: There's not room for further research on the question of

1299
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 5: this conduct and these disinformation campaigns. To the contrary, For

1300
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 5: one thing, additional evidence is only going to make the

1301
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 5: plaintiffs claim stronger. There's also a lot of different defendants

1302
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 5: that are named on these in these cases, other fossil

1303
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 5: fuel companies as well as I mentioned API, and further

1304
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 5: research on their conduct could be useful. And then there's

1305
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 5: also room for additional research on the sort of large

1306
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:03,599
Speaker 5: network of actors involved in climate disinformation, not to mention

1307
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 5: other public deception schemes like those related to COVID in

1308
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:11,720
Speaker 5: the election. So in particular, it would be great to

1309
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 5: be able to dive to take a deeper dive into

1310
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 5: how certain groups, public relation firms and consulting firms have

1311
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 5: specifically contributed to the messaging of fossil fuel companies, and

1312
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 5: there is a recent development legally which indicates that this

1313
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 5: could possibly pave the way for litigation. So there were

1314
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 5: a number of state attorney generals that filed lawsuits against

1315
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 5: opioid manufacturers for disinformation about opioids, and they also filed

1316
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 5: lawsuits against McKinsey, who had provided quite integral sort of

1317
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 5: support to help flesh out the advertising campaign for opioids,

1318
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 5: including support, for example, directing companies to focus their messaging

1319
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 5: on how they can get higher dosages people taking higher

1320
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 5: dosages because that's more lucrative for them. And so there

1321
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,639
Speaker 5: was never a final trial and verdict in that case,

1322
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 5: but mackenzie did end up entering into a settlement with

1323
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 5: forty nine state attorney generals where it agreed to pay

1324
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:14,960
Speaker 5: nearly six hundred billion in damages for its role as

1325
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 5: an enabler in the opioid crisis.

1326
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:19,679
Speaker 7: So that's just one example.

1327
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 5: Even if this sort of research doesn't result in litigation

1328
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:25,479
Speaker 5: or successful litigation, it would still be useful to have

1329
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 5: a better sense of the full network of actors involved

1330
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 5: in climate disinformation. And then I want to conclude with

1331
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 5: just a couple of other big picture thoughts about the

1332
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:41,640
Speaker 5: role of disinformation researchers in supporting potentially litigation. So one

1333
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 5: thing which Professor Arrescus mentioned is in these cases, in

1334
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 5: addition to proving the fact of conduct, the plant may

1335
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 5: also need to present evidence on the effects of disinformation,

1336
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:56,799
Speaker 5: and so, for example, evidence indicating that deceptive advertising caused

1337
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 5: people to continue using or increase their use of fossil

1338
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 5: above and beyond what would have happened in some counterfactual

1339
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 5: universe where the disinformation hadn't occurred. So that's certainly one

1340
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 5: area where disinformation researchers could play a big role in

1341
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 5: sort of fleshing out the factual foundation for the litigation.

1342
01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:18,480
Speaker 5: And then, you know, we talk a lot about corporate accountability,

1343
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 5: but one thing I think Jennifer did a great job

1344
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 5: highlighting her talk is that there are individuals ultimately making

1345
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 5: all of these decisions, and so I think that there

1346
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,519
Speaker 5: could be a real benefit to more strategic thinking about

1347
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 5: how we might hold individuals accountable for their contributions to

1348
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 5: climate disinformation as well as other major social problems that

1349
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 5: are driven by disinformation. And then, last, but not least,

1350
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 5: I just want to highlight several ways that disinformation researchers

1351
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 5: can get involved in this work. So one way is

1352
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 5: that you can potentially serve as expert witnesses in cases,

1353
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 5: providing your expertise, for example, on the topic of how

1354
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 5: is it that disinformation influences consumers? Really this is there

1355
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 5: are ample opportunity for pulling in your expertise into these cases.

1356
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 5: Another way to bring your expertise to the table is

1357
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:08,960
Speaker 5: to participate in amicus briefs. These are briefs that are

1358
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,960
Speaker 5: prepared by people who are situated outside of the litigation.

1359
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 5: They don't have a direct interest in the litigation, but

1360
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,479
Speaker 5: they can provide their expertise and insights to judges and

1361
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,880
Speaker 5: fact finders to help them resolve factual and legal issues

1362
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,640
Speaker 5: in cases. And then finally, the Union of Concerned Scientists

1363
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 5: has also launched the Science Hub for Litigation where they

1364
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 5: are working to connect researchers, social science researchers, physical scientists,

1365
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 5: and folks who are actually involved in litigation.

1366
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 7: And so that's another excellent resource.

1367
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 5: And I don't know, I guess it's not up on

1368
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,639
Speaker 5: the screen, but if you google the UCS Science Hub

1369
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 5: for Litigation, you should be able to find it.

1370
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 7: All right, thank you.

1371
01:18:57,520 --> 01:18:59,639
Speaker 6: With that I'd like to invite Amy Wes vote Beckens

1372
01:18:59,680 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 6: the same.

1373
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 1: Thank you guys all for that. That was really really great.

1374
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 1: I want to start by asking a question of everyone

1375
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: on the panel, and that is that you know, to me,

1376
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 1: what really jumped out when all of you were talking

1377
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: is just that this thing that we've been calling disinformation

1378
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,760
Speaker 1: that excuse me, I've started calling information pollution because I

1379
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 1: feel like it has no boundaries, you know, and what

1380
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,680
Speaker 1: we see in all of your talks is just how

1381
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 1: much the exact same strategies are used over and over

1382
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: again in every single industry, and that accountability, unfortunately, does

1383
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 1: seem to have boundaries. So I'm curious what you think

1384
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 1: about that, Like, how do we how do we get

1385
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: at this thing that just seems to keep spreading its

1386
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 1: tentacles into everything When the sort of structures we have

1387
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 1: only allow us to go after one company, or one

1388
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 1: industry or one person a time just that solve, then, I.

1389
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:07,719
Speaker 7: Mean it is a huge problem.

1390
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:10,600
Speaker 5: One of the reasons I mentioned that there's experimentation with

1391
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 5: the litigation is because for the most part, we don't

1392
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 5: have clear causes of action for this concept of sort of.

1393
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:20,639
Speaker 7: Fraud that applies to the entire public.

1394
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 5: And it's somewhat counterintuitive that, all right, you have a

1395
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 5: cause of action if someone like defrauds a particular individual

1396
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:31,639
Speaker 5: causes them economic injury, all right, But then this massive

1397
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 5: scale of fraud that is so much more harmful than

1398
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,880
Speaker 5: your typical case of fraud, you can't quite litigate it

1399
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 5: under your typical common law fraud scheme because the legal

1400
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 5: elements have all been structured with something else in mind.

1401
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 5: And so perhaps the litigation will help expand some of

1402
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 5: these legal norms, certainly outside of the US, where they

1403
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:52,360
Speaker 5: have human rights law available to them. I think human

1404
01:20:52,439 --> 01:20:55,760
Speaker 5: rights law can actually provide sort of a more expansive

1405
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:59,679
Speaker 5: and malleable legal framework for developing new corporate obligations which

1406
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 5: couldn't obligations not to lie to the public.

1407
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:06,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I'll take on the issue of scientific studies.

1408
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 3: You know, we've known for many years of something called

1409
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 3: the funding effect, which is the results of studies are

1410
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 3: very much consistent with the needs of the funders. And

1411
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,839
Speaker 3: that's really across the board, and it's seen tremendously in tobacco,

1412
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:21,719
Speaker 3: but also more recently in lots of different food products

1413
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:24,080
Speaker 3: and in e cigarettes. If you look at you know,

1414
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:26,679
Speaker 3: the studies done on e cigarettes, if it was paid

1415
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,320
Speaker 3: for a buy one of the cigarette companies, it tends

1416
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 3: to say there's no harm, and it's these aren't done

1417
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 3: by these very mercenary scientists, the one I talk to,

1418
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:38,679
Speaker 3: the ones I talked about, but actually academic scientists, because

1419
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 3: there are lots of reasons when you get funding, you

1420
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 3: have some interest in making sure your funder is happy,

1421
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 3: and that's certainly true in the private sector. So I

1422
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 3: think to build the scientific evidentiary base that we need

1423
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:52,800
Speaker 3: to protect the public, we need to have systems where

1424
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:58,599
Speaker 3: pollutants and polluters and manufacturers are dangerous chemicals. And certainly

1425
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 3: the fossil fueling is repaid for the science, but they

1426
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 3: don't control it in any way. And so you need

1427
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 3: to set up structures where the money goes into a

1428
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 3: structure that then choose as scientists who are independent, who

1429
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 3: are not conflicted, to do the studies, because we need

1430
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 3: those studies to be done and we need those companies

1431
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 3: to pay for the studies.

1432
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 1: Shout out to Princeton for just what yesterday or today,

1433
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, taking a first step towards getting at

1434
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:27,400
Speaker 1: least some of the fossil fuel funding out of their research.

1435
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 1: And also this speaks to why that's important. Sorry, did

1436
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: one of you guys want to talk about this whole,

1437
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:34,320
Speaker 1: like how do we get our arms around?

1438
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 4: Well, I'll just add to what David is saying about

1439
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:42,679
Speaker 4: the contractual agreements between universities and companies, because just solving

1440
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 4: the fossil fuel alone, as you can, it won't address

1441
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 4: the playbook writ large, and so I actually think we

1442
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:52,120
Speaker 4: do need the universities to step up and say we

1443
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 4: will not, you know, allow you to withhold ten percent

1444
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,880
Speaker 4: until you're satisfied with the results. We will not allow

1445
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 4: certain contractual agreements to go through our university and use

1446
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 4: our universities to greenwash these companies.

1447
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:06,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1448
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 6: I was also going to actually one random thought is

1449
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,640
Speaker 6: on the way in this morning a friendship with me

1450
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:15,160
Speaker 6: that in London today there was an event where they

1451
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:19,920
Speaker 6: were trying to re term, re reposition this information as

1452
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 6: brain pollution, which I think is quite interesting way to

1453
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 6: look at because in a way, it's not the pollution

1454
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,679
Speaker 6: of just the atmosphere around us, it's of our own minds.

1455
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 6: But the other thing I was going to say was,

1456
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 6: maybe at a slightly more meta level, is you know,

1457
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:37,559
Speaker 6: the very reason that these issues pervade so many industries,

1458
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,559
Speaker 6: so many sectors is because of the cross pollination of tactics,

1459
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:44,679
Speaker 6: you know, by way of the mercenaries, the pr firms,

1460
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:47,800
Speaker 6: the ad agencies that move between them, and so I

1461
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 6: think that an equal measure we need the methods we develop,

1462
01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 6: and in broader terms, the strategies we take, the approaches

1463
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 6: we take to themselves cross pollinate, which means collaborating like

1464
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:03,680
Speaker 6: we're doing here with scholars across industries, and also translating

1465
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 6: our methods. And one thing that's really emerged I think

1466
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 6: through our meeting is that we need to get better

1467
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 6: at work developing our techniques and our tools so that

1468
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 6: we can use them more effectively.

1469
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:18,320
Speaker 1: Of course, all these areas, yeah, yeah, David, I want

1470
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:22,600
Speaker 1: to ask you a particular question about the product defense scientists.

1471
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:26,400
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, where, where where do these firms find

1472
01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 1: these scientists? How do they recruit scientists? You know, we

1473
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 1: kind of despital of the erosion of credibility. I think

1474
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,679
Speaker 1: it's just like socially we think of scientists as being,

1475
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 1: you know, trustworthy people. What's happening there, Well.

1476
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:44,639
Speaker 3: First you have to recognize this is a very lucrative pursuit.

1477
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 3: The companies spend a lot of money into paying into

1478
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,040
Speaker 3: these firms, and a lot of the senior scientists have

1479
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:53,120
Speaker 3: been doing it for a long time. The disheartening thing

1480
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:55,720
Speaker 3: I see is that, for example, we have graduates from

1481
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:58,519
Speaker 3: my university who look, you know, they have master's degrees.

1482
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:02,360
Speaker 3: They're looking for a job. These companies higher and they

1483
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:04,559
Speaker 3: grind people up and you work there for a few years,

1484
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 3: but they're certainly available. The challenging question, though, is how

1485
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 3: do you then when you're in a company like that

1486
01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:13,000
Speaker 3: and you end up staying, You end up convincing yourself

1487
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 3: that what you're doing isn't wrong. And that goes back,

1488
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,560
Speaker 3: you know, to tobacco, asbestos, or where you had asbestos

1489
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:24,719
Speaker 3: executives who saw people get asbestosis and still simply said,

1490
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't it doesn't cause aspestosis, or the

1491
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:32,000
Speaker 3: or the tobacco executives who put their right hands up

1492
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 3: and swore that nicotine isn't there was no evidence or

1493
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 3: they didn't there was not yet compelling evidence that nicotine

1494
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,560
Speaker 3: was addictive. I mean, you know, and you convince you

1495
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:44,120
Speaker 3: have you know, I don't think all those people are liars.

1496
01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:46,800
Speaker 3: I think there's some way they convince themselves, because if

1497
01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:49,880
Speaker 3: they don't convince themselves of that, they can't sleep at night,

1498
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 3: you know. Upt In Sinclair famously said, it's difficult to

1499
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 3: convince a man of saying when his salary depends on

1500
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 3: him not believing it.

1501
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 5: And that's one complicating right now too, is when we

1502
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 5: live in this age of rampant disinformation, it is so

1503
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:07,400
Speaker 5: easy for people to say something is disinformation. You can

1504
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:11,559
Speaker 5: almost weaponize the very concept of disinformation to spread additional

1505
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 5: disinformation news.

1506
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:19,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, again, a question for all four of you. Thank

1507
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:21,800
Speaker 1: you for mentioning the media's role in all of this.

1508
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:25,560
Speaker 1: I think the media has been a huge enabler of

1509
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. But I also think that the

1510
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: techniques and strategies of PR have have sort of permanently

1511
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:40,519
Speaker 1: warped the information ecosystem in this way where you know,

1512
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: so many stories come directly from press releases. I know,

1513
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:46,720
Speaker 1: because I get the same press releases and then I

1514
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:50,040
Speaker 1: see the stories. You know, So I just I don't know.

1515
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 1: I'm curious what your thoughts are on how we deal

1516
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: with that. How do you not just fight back against disinformation?

1517
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 1: But sort of to Naomi's point, about inoculation earlier, like

1518
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:06,040
Speaker 1: how does the media play a role in that inoculation?

1519
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:13,760
Speaker 5: And all right, I was recently reading an article about this,

1520
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 5: and I apologize because I had forgotten the author's name.

1521
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:21,599
Speaker 5: But a woman was proposing, a legal academic was proposing basically,

1522
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 5: since the First Amendment makes a little bit difficult to

1523
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 5: go after media directly for disinformation, that perhaps there'd be

1524
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 5: some sort of professional accredation requirements where people in the

1525
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 5: media have to somehow have some sort of training relevant

1526
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:38,040
Speaker 5: to ascertaining the diff you used to.

1527
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 1: Be part of getting the job.

1528
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:43,200
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, yeah, I mean so that's that could be

1529
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:46,400
Speaker 5: one possibility. I'm not sure how effective it would actually be,

1530
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:47,639
Speaker 5: but it's a thought. Yeah.

1531
01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, this won't be anything revelatory, but the

1532
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 4: platforms have to be seen as publishers too clearly in

1533
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 4: this age of disinformation, and there's no way, right, I mean,

1534
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 4: we've already creeped toward that a little bit and they

1535
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:08,240
Speaker 4: keep pushing back, but there's just no way to sort

1536
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,719
Speaker 4: of maintain as is under the current flux of information.

1537
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:17,719
Speaker 6: Another thought is, and I'd like to give a special

1538
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:21,639
Speaker 6: shout out to native news, Native Native advertising, so basically

1539
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:24,360
Speaker 6: the direct digital descendants of the advertorials that they I mean,

1540
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 6: I've studied. The only difference being that now the companies

1541
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 6: just get to pay the newspaper's own brand studios to

1542
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:32,760
Speaker 6: make the ads for them. Shout out to the shout

1543
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 6: out the New York Time, shouts to Washington Post, shout

1544
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 6: out to Politico, and a whole bunch of other places.

1545
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 6: They're not special. They all do it well, a lot

1546
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:44,240
Speaker 6: of them do it. But it makes me think because

1547
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:47,520
Speaker 6: I've met journalists, including in those places, who are very frustrated,

1548
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 6: especially when they work on climate and environment, that their

1549
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:53,760
Speaker 6: own newspapers are undermining their reporting. And I have on

1550
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,639
Speaker 6: reasonably good authority that sometimes these companies have the ability

1551
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 6: to decide when and where these ads run in terms

1552
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 6: of adjacency to relevant stories and policy and so on.

1553
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Washington Post told me that I asked to

1554
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:10,080
Speaker 1: buy an ad for something, and I asked, like, what

1555
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:12,760
Speaker 1: kind of keywords can I attach to and what kind

1556
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 1: of and like they just like anything you want, So yes, So.

1557
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 6: That gets you know, that makes me think that myself,

1558
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 6: being in academia and being part of I'd say, you know,

1559
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:26,920
Speaker 6: a generation of scholars who's kind of fed up with

1560
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:30,640
Speaker 6: what Ben French and I call the colonization of academia,

1561
01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:34,640
Speaker 6: this massive amounts of fossil fuel money influencing climate and

1562
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:39,439
Speaker 6: energy relevant research. There is a groundswell of opposition of

1563
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:43,720
Speaker 6: activism amongst scholars internally making a fuss saying we're not

1564
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,919
Speaker 6: happy with this. The same thing could happen amongst journalists

1565
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:50,600
Speaker 6: if enough of them speak up internally. Perhaps I'm not

1566
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,679
Speaker 6: I've never been a journalist, but I would be excited

1567
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:56,680
Speaker 6: to see that or perhaps simply to report on it

1568
01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 6: as a legitimate climate story going on in house or

1569
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 6: in the houses of their fellow news outlets.

1570
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:04,280
Speaker 5: Just the sort.

1571
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:07,000
Speaker 3: And if I can just add, you know, the one

1572
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 3: of the conditions that plagues a lot of the media

1573
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 3: is both siderism. You know that you know, people say,

1574
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 3: you know, climate change is real, and it used to

1575
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:20,599
Speaker 3: be that they find some one of the few scientists

1576
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:22,360
Speaker 3: paid for by the industry said no, no, it's not

1577
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:24,439
Speaker 3: real or the evidence and that we're sort of past that.

1578
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:29,920
Speaker 3: In most leichitimate venues, you no longer get both sides

1579
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 3: of that sort, but you still get that on you know,

1580
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 3: is a carbon sequestration and lots of other things. They're

1581
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 3: more complicated arguments, and so it's important, I think, to

1582
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:40,720
Speaker 3: engage reporters and point out to them that these are

1583
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 3: these arguments are being made the same way and there

1584
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 3: there really aren't two sides to this discussion either, and

1585
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 3: to push back on those because the instinct of most

1586
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:50,760
Speaker 3: reporters is to say, well, I've got to cover all

1587
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:51,639
Speaker 3: sides of that story.

1588
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:54,360
Speaker 7: And just one final note.

1589
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,679
Speaker 4: There's a philosopher Thomas Kuhn, or philosopher science who said

1590
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 4: that there are very special social conditions to support science.

1591
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:06,200
Speaker 4: It may not go on forever. And I think that's

1592
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:09,560
Speaker 4: also true of a press, of true freedom of the

1593
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:12,439
Speaker 4: press and a genuine press that's pushing back against power.

1594
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 4: There's you know, there's not always the social conditions to

1595
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 4: support a true press.

1596
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 6: I had the one second foot note the New York

1597
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:24,639
Speaker 6: Times wishing to posts where the climate teams are brilliant.

1598
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:29,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, I mean this.

1599
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:33,679
Speaker 1: I'm annoyed on their behalf at what their papers are doing.

1600
01:31:34,240 --> 01:31:36,040
Speaker 6: I I mentionine they're annoyed too, Yeah.

1601
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:41,439
Speaker 1: Yeah they are. Okay, So, Jennifer, you talked about how

1602
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:45,800
Speaker 1: these strategies have been around for very long time, and

1603
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 1: they've crossed industries, and especially about the press release, and

1604
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:53,680
Speaker 1: it got me thinking about just how old a lot

1605
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 1: of the messaging is and how much it just keeps

1606
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:59,120
Speaker 1: being repeated over and over and over again across multiple industries,

1607
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 1: and why that continues to work. I don't know if

1608
01:32:04,200 --> 01:32:06,720
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on that, like why, why why

1609
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 1: is it still working? These are you know, the press

1610
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:11,960
Speaker 1: release is like over one hundred years old and some

1611
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,439
Speaker 1: of the first ones were printed in their entirety, you know,

1612
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:20,639
Speaker 1: so that we're back to passages being lifted from press

1613
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 1: releases is kind of depressing.

1614
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:25,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, my, I mean my thought.

1615
01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 4: It reminded me of junior year of high school where

1616
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,360
Speaker 4: I learned about logical fallacies. And if you're on a

1617
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:32,479
Speaker 4: debate team or you went through high school, you remember

1618
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:35,599
Speaker 4: learning all those those are ad hominem, you know, post

1619
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:36,720
Speaker 4: hoc ergo, propter.

1620
01:32:36,520 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 7: Hawk, I can. It's like, these are these are skill.

1621
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:43,679
Speaker 4: Sets you know, developed over a long time on tools

1622
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:47,720
Speaker 4: for debate, and now they have been corporatized, and I

1623
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 4: really think this is sort of part of the toolkit

1624
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 4: that everyone sort of needs to survive in a in

1625
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:55,599
Speaker 4: a free market fundamentalism America.

1626
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:59,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you want to add anything, David?

1627
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:03,040
Speaker 3: You know, I mean I think about some of these

1628
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:05,600
Speaker 3: same people who are able to sort of say the

1629
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:08,479
Speaker 3: same things over and over again, and the same sciences

1630
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 3: who said that PFAZ isn't dangerous, or you know, there's

1631
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:16,120
Speaker 3: no asbestos in telc or you know, and I can

1632
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 3: just give you the long list. And what's interesting is,

1633
01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 3: as they could often say the time, there's still some

1634
01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:25,320
Speaker 3: ability to raise doubt, but then it passes. So some

1635
01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:27,760
Speaker 3: of these same sciences who I put up here in

1636
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:32,120
Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties were working for the tobacco industry saying

1637
01:33:32,160 --> 01:33:35,560
Speaker 3: that the EPA's risk assessment on environmental tobacco smoke was

1638
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:38,600
Speaker 3: not you know, there's inadequate evidence to support that. I

1639
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:40,479
Speaker 3: think what we need to do is go back and

1640
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,880
Speaker 3: catalog you know, here are the things they said in

1641
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:45,160
Speaker 3: the number of times that the sort of the science

1642
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 3: has proven them wrong and raise the question why do

1643
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 3: we even listen to these people? Why are they allowed

1644
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:52,800
Speaker 3: to pontificate on this, because clearly what they're doing is lying.

1645
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah that actually that reminded me of something that jumped

1646
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 1: to mind when during your time, too, is that like,

1647
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:06,760
Speaker 1: these settlements are enormous in especially with chemical and health

1648
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:10,800
Speaker 1: where you can really prove the link between exposure and

1649
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:15,639
Speaker 1: a health problem or wrongful death, and yet it keeps

1650
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 1: fucking happening like it's you know, it's just like it

1651
01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:21,200
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to stop them from continuing to do it.

1652
01:34:21,360 --> 01:34:27,400
Speaker 1: So like what would well regulation answer is right, I mean,

1653
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,599
Speaker 1: hundreds of billions of dollars settlements don't do it, then

1654
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:34,799
Speaker 1: what will government's truly committing to phasing out fossil fuels altogether?

1655
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:39,280
Speaker 3: We have to essentially, the government has to step in.

1656
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:41,840
Speaker 3: As you heard from Naomi's talk earlier, you know, the

1657
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 3: market is not going to solve these problems. And when

1658
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:47,840
Speaker 3: you have these big settlements, eventually maybe that will take

1659
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:51,400
Speaker 3: some money out of the the worst offenders pockets. But

1660
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 3: often first they're covered by the insurance industry anyway, so

1661
01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 3: they're less worried. But it's also too late, after people

1662
01:34:57,920 --> 01:35:02,400
Speaker 3: have died, after property has been destroyed. Lawsuits aren't the answer.

1663
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:06,560
Speaker 3: Lawsuits are useful in terms of encouraging better behavior, but

1664
01:35:06,720 --> 01:35:09,240
Speaker 3: this we can't wait for these lawsuits. Not to say

1665
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:11,200
Speaker 3: we should stop working on them, but we need the

1666
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:13,800
Speaker 3: government to step in and simply say this is what

1667
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:15,519
Speaker 3: you're allowed to do, this is what you're not allowed

1668
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:17,719
Speaker 3: to do, and that's the only way that we'll really

1669
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:19,200
Speaker 3: be able to save the world.

1670
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:25,080
Speaker 1: Okay, we have a question that's come in from the interwebs.

1671
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:31,080
Speaker 1: All industries use deception scripts. What are commonalities and distinctions

1672
01:35:31,280 --> 01:35:35,200
Speaker 1: between the various sectors. That's really interesting.

1673
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:41,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so one big thing I've noticed at least between

1674
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:44,439
Speaker 4: fossil fuel and meat and dairy, because they're using a

1675
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 4: very similar playbook. But whereas the fossil fuel industry really

1676
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 4: wants you to believe in individual responsibility, right, this is

1677
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:56,680
Speaker 4: your responsibility as someone who turns on the lights and

1678
01:35:56,800 --> 01:36:01,240
Speaker 4: drives a car and flies to wherever, the meat and

1679
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:06,400
Speaker 4: dairy companies really don't want to focus on individual responsibility.

1680
01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:08,320
Speaker 7: They want to avoid that narrative.

1681
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 4: They do everything they can to downplay. Like you saw

1682
01:36:12,320 --> 01:36:15,760
Speaker 4: on the quote, I read right, consumers changing their preferences

1683
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:16,599
Speaker 4: will not matter.

1684
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 7: And that's a very big distinction.

1685
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 4: And I think it has to do obviously with the

1686
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:23,439
Speaker 4: fact that we eat three times a day and these

1687
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 4: choices are much more elastic, and so that strikes me

1688
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:29,200
Speaker 4: as a major difference.

1689
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:33,920
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Yeah, anyone else want to weigh in

1690
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:38,840
Speaker 1: on the differences or similarities? Okay, I have another question.

1691
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:47,000
Speaker 1: It's really analogue, okay from Tim cook Hurl. He says

1692
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:50,960
Speaker 1: in the UK client Earth's December twenty nineteen complaint against

1693
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 1: BP under the OECP Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises targeted BP's

1694
01:36:56,400 --> 01:37:00,679
Speaker 1: greenwashing ads. The complaint contributed to BP's decision in February

1695
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 1: twenty twenty to withdraw and not replace their global green

1696
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:09,520
Speaker 1: adverts and to undertake not to engage in corporate reputation advertising,

1697
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:13,720
Speaker 1: although they absolutely have done that since then. How can

1698
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:19,519
Speaker 1: soft law tactics be used against other firms and sectors.

1699
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,760
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what soft law means, but maybe you know,

1700
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 1: this is.

1701
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:24,679
Speaker 2: An English question.

1702
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:25,280
Speaker 4: I think.

1703
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:28,960
Speaker 3: Inditionally responsible for everything said in.

1704
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:34,000
Speaker 6: I'm not sure soft law means all that one can infert,

1705
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:37,320
Speaker 6: but I was immediately thinking that, you know, there's obviously

1706
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 6: a very and also to the discussion about the clearly central,

1707
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:47,160
Speaker 6: maybe ultimately vital role of government in ultimately precluding this stuff.

1708
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:50,120
Speaker 6: I wanted also because I'm aware that there are like

1709
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 6: you know, we are also citizens, and there are many

1710
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,280
Speaker 6: people watching online hopefully you know, And I think it's

1711
01:37:56,280 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 6: important to think about how we can nonetheless player role

1712
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 6: in combating some of this. And the first thing that

1713
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 6: comes to mind is the journalist Mary Hegler and the

1714
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:08,840
Speaker 6: green trolling that she has pioneered on social media. You know,

1715
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:13,560
Speaker 6: social media, for all its problems, really a vessel for greenwashing,

1716
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:18,200
Speaker 6: also provides a small amount of democratization, sense that provides

1717
01:38:18,240 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 6: individual citizens to punch back, and so her you know,

1718
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:27,200
Speaker 6: use of satire and comedy. Another climate comedian Roddy Williams.

1719
01:38:27,240 --> 01:38:28,599
Speaker 6: I want to give a shout out to them, because

1720
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:31,479
Speaker 6: they're really helping to change the public narrative, at least

1721
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:35,760
Speaker 6: in some constituencies, to just cool this stuff out, just

1722
01:38:35,880 --> 01:38:38,840
Speaker 6: call it what is to bs it it is. That's

1723
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:39,800
Speaker 6: one immediate thought.

1724
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:43,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I suspect by soft law that person may be

1725
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 5: referring to sort of the threat of litigation, the prospect

1726
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:50,479
Speaker 5: of litigation, and the reality is a lot of the

1727
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:53,680
Speaker 5: it's not quite legal precedent, but a lot of the

1728
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,880
Speaker 5: cases that our analogolists have been settled rather than gone

1729
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:00,439
Speaker 5: to trial and received a verdict and so, and that

1730
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 5: does suggest that simply the prospect of litigation can change outcomes,

1731
01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,719
Speaker 5: and in fact the Mackenzie settlement that I mentioned earlier,

1732
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:12,240
Speaker 5: I found myself wondering if perhaps, you know, consulting companies

1733
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 5: in PR firms might actually be more likely to try

1734
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:18,880
Speaker 5: to settle and improve their reputation in the face of

1735
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:22,040
Speaker 5: prospective litigation due to the nature of their work. Right,

1736
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:24,679
Speaker 5: I mean, McKenzie isn't completely dependent. It does do oil

1737
01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:27,640
Speaker 5: and gas consulting, but that's not all it does. It

1738
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:30,519
Speaker 5: doesn't just do opioid consulting. It's got a broader network

1739
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:32,240
Speaker 5: of things it does, and it has an interest in

1740
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 5: maintaining its reputation. So the threat of litigation might be

1741
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 5: almost more effective with some of these enablers.

1742
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:43,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I interpret soft law differently. Sort of

1743
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 3: interesting that more I thought, this is more so of

1744
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:48,679
Speaker 3: the behavioral economics and looking at some of the enablers

1745
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 3: what they can say and not say, but not going

1746
01:39:50,439 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 3: directly at fossil fuel production and combustion, which is the problem.

1747
01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:57,640
Speaker 3: And so while I think that's all useful, you know,

1748
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:01,720
Speaker 3: we are facing this existential threat and to say, well,

1749
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:05,599
Speaker 3: we're going to try to do these smaller steps, yes,

1750
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 3: we should do them, but as you heard from Naomi Reskies,

1751
01:40:09,960 --> 01:40:13,200
Speaker 3: government action really does drive behavior in a way that

1752
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:16,000
Speaker 3: no one else does. I mean the story from the

1753
01:40:16,120 --> 01:40:20,479
Speaker 3: OSHA world, which I think Sir captures this is there's

1754
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:23,479
Speaker 3: a plastic vinyl chloride. You've all heard of it. Vinyl

1755
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:28,120
Speaker 3: is used for roofing materials and records and shower curtains.

1756
01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:31,759
Speaker 3: And in the early nineteen seventies there were five cases

1757
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:35,320
Speaker 3: of a very rare cancer at a vinyl chloride manufacturing

1758
01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 3: facility in Kentucky. So there was no question the vinyl chloride,

1759
01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 3: actually the monomer, the precursor chemical to polyvinyl chloride, caused

1760
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 3: this fatal and rare liver cancer. And OSHA moved quickly

1761
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:52,799
Speaker 3: because they could in those days, to issue a regulation

1762
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:55,599
Speaker 3: limiting exposure. Tried to get to zero, but to one

1763
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:58,839
Speaker 3: part per million, and the industry said what the industry

1764
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:05,160
Speaker 3: always says, it's unnecessary, it's infeasible, and it will cost.

1765
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:07,280
Speaker 3: In this case, they said two million jobs, because that's

1766
01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 3: a number of people involved in plastic. And it was

1767
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:13,240
Speaker 3: in the New York Times, was you know they put

1768
01:41:13,360 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 3: that was their message, and oh, she said, sorry, you know,

1769
01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 3: the law is very clear. The law was very new.

1770
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:19,840
Speaker 3: It said we need to make sure these workers are safe.

1771
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:24,080
Speaker 3: They put through this this rule, and less than year

1772
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:28,080
Speaker 3: later the headline and chemical week was PVC polyvalthoride goes

1773
01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:33,320
Speaker 3: from jeopardy to jubilation because the the old system allowed

1774
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 3: the feed stock, which was you know, petroleum based into

1775
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:38,559
Speaker 3: the air. That's why people were exposed and they will

1776
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:41,800
Speaker 3: lose a lot of feedstock. And you know, regulation is

1777
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:45,639
Speaker 3: the mother of necessity in this case, and they enclosed.

1778
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 3: The engineers were very you know they were I don't

1779
01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:52,360
Speaker 3: even know if they were brilliant, but they figure out

1780
01:41:52,400 --> 01:41:55,720
Speaker 3: pretty quickly how to make this product safely, and they

1781
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:58,720
Speaker 3: eliminated the exposure and now the single job was lost.

1782
01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:02,599
Speaker 3: In fact, profitability went on. But well, we're always going

1783
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:05,479
Speaker 3: to get this line. Well, don't really come right off

1784
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:07,879
Speaker 3: the target because it's gonna cost too much, it's not feasible,

1785
01:42:08,080 --> 01:42:11,120
Speaker 3: it's gonna kill jobs. And that turns out more often

1786
01:42:11,120 --> 01:42:12,240
Speaker 3: than not not to be the case.

1787
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:16,920
Speaker 6: I was also gonna say, the US congressional investigations going

1788
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:20,599
Speaker 6: on right now into greenwashing and the history of this information,

1789
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:28,120
Speaker 6: there's obviously likely of playing a vital role in renormalizing

1790
01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:30,200
Speaker 6: this landscape the same way they did in the case

1791
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:31,599
Speaker 6: of the tobacco industry.

1792
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, anybody else. Okay, I have a question, and then

1793
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:42,680
Speaker 1: I have another viewer question. Do you think that that,

1794
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:47,400
Speaker 1: given given how much a sort of side effect of

1795
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 1: this has been the erosion of credibility for science and

1796
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:56,720
Speaker 1: expertise in general, do you have any sense that that

1797
01:42:56,920 --> 01:42:59,680
Speaker 1: was part of the goal, that you know that that's

1798
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:02,360
Speaker 1: not actually an accidental side effect at all.

1799
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:06,760
Speaker 2: That's a great question.

1800
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 3: I hadn't thought about that. I just assumed that was

1801
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 3: a bypractice. It's hard to me to think, so, you

1802
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:15,920
Speaker 3: know that people are so evil, but you know, we see,

1803
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:21,439
Speaker 3: you know, the the skepticism around science, around COVID now,

1804
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:24,519
Speaker 3: which is killing people. I mean, it's really it's a

1805
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:28,160
Speaker 3: remarkable and disheartening thing. I don't it's hard to me

1806
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:30,600
Speaker 3: believe that was intentional that. I think they thought that

1807
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:33,040
Speaker 3: there's an immediate need, which is to make sure those

1808
01:43:33,120 --> 01:43:34,120
Speaker 3: scientists aren't believed.

1809
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:38,000
Speaker 1: But but you know, it doesn't stay contained, you know, Wally.

1810
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:41,960
Speaker 3: Tomlin Willie Tomlin famously said, no matter how cynical I get,

1811
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:50,439
Speaker 3: I can't keep up. It's yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

1812
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:56,320
Speaker 6: I can't think of I'm thinking through the documents. Yeah,

1813
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:01,000
Speaker 6: I think I think I've also I've seen it as

1814
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:04,519
Speaker 6: a sort of by product of a broader attempt to

1815
01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:09,160
Speaker 6: undermine to promote a sense of uncertainty. So you have

1816
01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:13,200
Speaker 6: to promote uncertainty associated with this set of scientists.

1817
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 3: There's also the.

1818
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:19,280
Speaker 6: Opposite, which API the American Return Institute was internally explicit about,

1819
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:25,519
Speaker 6: which was to win over small groups of sympathetic scientists.

1820
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:26,840
Speaker 6: So that's the flip side of it.

1821
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

1822
01:44:29,080 --> 01:44:32,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, something, I mean, it's very unfashionable these days to

1823
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:38,800
Speaker 4: be passionate about science, but it's really such a cool

1824
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:41,240
Speaker 4: way of knowing something about the world.

1825
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:44,360
Speaker 7: I mean, it doesn't there's no system that can be.

1826
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:46,559
Speaker 1: That and another scientific methods.

1827
01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:47,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1828
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:52,080
Speaker 4: Well, but so when you see in the same document

1829
01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:54,719
Speaker 4: where they suggest Hill and Norton suggests mirror and belittle

1830
01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:58,040
Speaker 4: the scientists, they also suggest as the fourth option to

1831
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:03,080
Speaker 4: raise the issue so far above that they can't really comment.

1832
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:06,920
Speaker 4: And to me, that's maybe the closest that I've seen.

1833
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 4: And maybe you have other ideas of sort of getting

1834
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:13,720
Speaker 4: at like we're bigger than science, which to me is

1835
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:21,760
Speaker 4: like almost kind of sacrilegious, and that they're not sort

1836
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:24,480
Speaker 4: of saying like we want science to go away explicitly,

1837
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:28,360
Speaker 4: but they're suggesting that they they're so powerful that they

1838
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:30,679
Speaker 4: can control what we know about the world.

1839
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:36,559
Speaker 1: That's so interesting and scary. Yeah wow, Okay, question from

1840
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 1: Enrique Rosso. He says, talking about personal responsibility, personal responsibility,

1841
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:50,160
Speaker 1: since big settlements don't seem to modify behavior, wouldn't liability

1842
01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:55,320
Speaker 1: personal liability, holding executives individually responsible be a way to

1843
01:45:55,400 --> 01:45:58,320
Speaker 1: make them take ownership for greenwashing and pollution.

1844
01:45:59,160 --> 01:45:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1845
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:01,679
Speaker 5: I mean that's part of why I mentioned this idea

1846
01:46:01,720 --> 01:46:05,880
Speaker 5: of more strategic thinking about accountability for individuals. And I'll

1847
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:08,640
Speaker 5: to be totally transparent, I have not yet had the

1848
01:46:08,680 --> 01:46:11,360
Speaker 5: opportunity as a legal analyst to really dig into that issue,

1849
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:16,519
Speaker 5: even if it's not something that feeds into litigation. Though,

1850
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:19,280
Speaker 5: I think there's incredible value to not just calling out

1851
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:22,439
Speaker 5: like shell X on Chevron, but actually calling out people.

1852
01:46:22,479 --> 01:46:25,280
Speaker 5: I remember looking at some of the stuff that's come

1853
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:28,600
Speaker 5: out of the current congressional hearings, and it's the individuals

1854
01:46:28,640 --> 01:46:30,920
Speaker 5: who are saying things, and you're not just mad at

1855
01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:33,679
Speaker 5: some abstract company. It is people on the ground making

1856
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:35,640
Speaker 5: these decisions, and so I do think that we need

1857
01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:36,599
Speaker 5: to start trying to call.

1858
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:39,040
Speaker 7: Them out more I think you know.

1859
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:42,879
Speaker 3: Something that moves in that direction is a legislative concept

1860
01:46:42,920 --> 01:46:46,560
Speaker 3: that is in place in Australia and New Zealand and

1861
01:46:46,760 --> 01:46:50,120
Speaker 3: other places, which is the corporations have the duty of care.

1862
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:51,040
Speaker 2: Here.

1863
01:46:51,160 --> 01:46:53,679
Speaker 3: We have many different laws here. For example, the Ocean

1864
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:57,320
Speaker 3: law says you have to care for your employees, but

1865
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:00,519
Speaker 3: it doesn't say anything about the you know, a contractor

1866
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:03,680
Speaker 3: who walks in or you know, a messenger or something

1867
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,160
Speaker 3: like that, or the pedestrian. It's covered a different way.

1868
01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 3: So the law in Australia is that you have to

1869
01:47:09,479 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 3: take care not to do bad things that hurt other

1870
01:47:13,080 --> 01:47:18,040
Speaker 3: people directly or indirectly. And there's also criminal penalties against

1871
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:23,720
Speaker 3: corporate board members. Now I don't know if that's been

1872
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:28,080
Speaker 3: applied in the climate change I suspect hasn't, because you know,

1873
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:30,640
Speaker 3: there's still is the whole question of attribution that has

1874
01:47:30,720 --> 01:47:33,000
Speaker 3: to get there. But it's a big step forward and

1875
01:47:33,120 --> 01:47:36,559
Speaker 3: that's certainly something that we should be looking at here. Basically,

1876
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:40,760
Speaker 3: if you run a business, that business should not hurt someone, right,

1877
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:44,000
Speaker 3: and that's that seems like, you know a basic principle.

1878
01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:45,160
Speaker 3: It isn't too hard to get to.

1879
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 4: Lee Raymond is still alive, right, I mean, this is

1880
01:47:50,640 --> 01:47:54,760
Speaker 4: this is what is remarkable to me because somebody is

1881
01:47:55,320 --> 01:47:58,000
Speaker 4: that is such a mastermind behind so much of this,

1882
01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:00,880
Speaker 4: Who ran X on for so long? Who really, who

1883
01:48:01,040 --> 01:48:06,120
Speaker 4: really made some very important chess moves? Is here?

1884
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:08,519
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's next door.

1885
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 6: I was gonna I was going to point out that,

1886
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:16,240
Speaker 6: you know, the CEO of X and Mobile, Darrenwoods, he

1887
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:18,479
Speaker 6: lied to Congress. When was it a few months ago?

1888
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:23,240
Speaker 6: You know we were watching and and yeah, likewise, these

1889
01:48:23,439 --> 01:48:28,799
Speaker 6: other CEOs are on record disinforming the public, disinforming decision makers.

1890
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,639
Speaker 6: I'm under the vague impression that there is some work

1891
01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 6: going on to try to get at this in a

1892
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:39,640
Speaker 6: legal sense, but I'm blanking on what that is, so.

1893
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:48,080
Speaker 1: Criminal charges. Okay, the question from Tobia Spampati. I'm sorry

1894
01:48:48,080 --> 01:48:51,200
Speaker 1: if I'm mispronouncing your name. If there is one thing

1895
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:55,440
Speaker 1: we know about climate disinformation, it's that it constantly evolves.

1896
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:57,240
Speaker 1: What do you think is going to be the main

1897
01:48:57,280 --> 01:49:00,560
Speaker 1: deception tactic in two, five, ten years from now so

1898
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:01,960
Speaker 1: we can pre bunk it.

1899
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:09,080
Speaker 3: Good question, Yeah, she ask the audience too. There are

1900
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:10,840
Speaker 3: lots of smart people in this room, that's true.

1901
01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:15,360
Speaker 1: Yes, Carol, you're introduce yourself to for people.

1902
01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:19,439
Speaker 8: Listening, it's happening right now and it's accelerating. And the

1903
01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:22,519
Speaker 8: main deception, and you heard people talking about it is

1904
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:25,720
Speaker 8: representing the sources of the problem as the key to

1905
01:49:25,800 --> 01:49:29,040
Speaker 8: the solution. We're seeing it in the rise in narratives

1906
01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:33,240
Speaker 8: around false solutions like net zero carbon capture and storage,

1907
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:36,960
Speaker 8: blue hydrogen, blue ammonia. That's that's where this denial fight

1908
01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:37,800
Speaker 8: is going right now.

1909
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:44,120
Speaker 1: That was Carol Muffett from the Center for International Environmental

1910
01:49:44,160 --> 01:49:48,000
Speaker 1: Lot Just for people that are listening and not watching. Yeah,

1911
01:49:48,320 --> 01:49:49,760
Speaker 1: anyone else want to jump in?

1912
01:49:51,120 --> 01:49:51,240
Speaker 3: Well?

1913
01:49:51,280 --> 01:49:54,320
Speaker 4: I mentioned and when I was thinking about beef and

1914
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:57,400
Speaker 4: dairy that beef is sort of the equivalent to coal.

1915
01:49:57,520 --> 01:50:00,599
Speaker 7: We saw a clean coal them. I thought we'd see clean.

1916
01:50:00,479 --> 01:50:06,120
Speaker 4: Beef, But there's actually a very there's an analogous case

1917
01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:11,720
Speaker 4: of beef that's now available, and watch for it in

1918
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:13,479
Speaker 4: a greenwashing ad near you.

1919
01:50:13,680 --> 01:50:16,640
Speaker 7: Clean beef really basically equivalent of that.

1920
01:50:16,840 --> 01:50:23,280
Speaker 1: Yet Wow, Wow, anyone in the audience panning Panning note, Okay, Jeffrey,

1921
01:50:24,400 --> 01:50:25,599
Speaker 1: you thought about it long enough.

1922
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 6: So like some of the recent work that NAO mean

1923
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:35,680
Speaker 6: I have done has tried to find close rhetorical parallels

1924
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:42,960
Speaker 6: between the tobacco and fossil fuel industries. And one it's

1925
01:50:43,080 --> 01:50:45,240
Speaker 6: very specific, but one thing that we picked up on

1926
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:50,519
Speaker 6: is the use of risk rhetoric. So essentially now and

1927
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:52,879
Speaker 6: I think we saw it really emerging during those congressional

1928
01:50:52,920 --> 01:50:59,200
Speaker 6: hearings last year, is that now the companies generally state

1929
01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:02,400
Speaker 6: on their webs sites and in their statements that they

1930
01:51:02,479 --> 01:51:06,439
Speaker 6: acknowledge the climate that the risk of climate change is real,

1931
01:51:06,640 --> 01:51:11,080
Speaker 6: or that the climate change is a risk. And this

1932
01:51:11,240 --> 01:51:16,640
Speaker 6: is drawing from a legal strategy employed really profusely in

1933
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:21,400
Speaker 6: the case of tobacco defense to shift the blame by

1934
01:51:21,479 --> 01:51:25,280
Speaker 6: basically implying that consumers were aware of the risk and

1935
01:51:25,400 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 6: they brought into it and therefore the companies themselves aren't

1936
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:30,840
Speaker 6: liable for it. That's very specific, and so to some

1937
01:51:30,920 --> 01:51:32,800
Speaker 6: extent I hesitated to mention because it is actually happening

1938
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:36,559
Speaker 6: right now. But I think we really foresee that trajectory emerging.

1939
01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:39,719
Speaker 6: But it is a really interesting question to think about.

1940
01:51:40,040 --> 01:51:43,880
Speaker 6: Are there ways to use, for example, modern tech, you know,

1941
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:48,920
Speaker 6: algorithmic computational techniques to maybe try to project in ways

1942
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:50,320
Speaker 6: that we haven't been able to in the past. So

1943
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:52,880
Speaker 6: that's very thought provoking, which is an academic way of saying,

1944
01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:53,639
Speaker 6: I don't know any answer.

1945
01:51:54,880 --> 01:51:59,000
Speaker 5: You know, one other possibility is so as we get

1946
01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:02,280
Speaker 5: more and more detection attribution research showing us how things

1947
01:52:02,320 --> 01:52:05,200
Speaker 5: are already changing due to climate change. You know, in

1948
01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:07,879
Speaker 5: the past they attacked sort of more of the general

1949
01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:12,240
Speaker 5: scientific evidence about greenhouse gas emissions causing global climate change.

1950
01:52:12,400 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 7: But I could envision not that I want to give

1951
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:15,519
Speaker 7: anyone ideas here.

1952
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:19,840
Speaker 5: But I could envision people funding research which is specifically

1953
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:24,160
Speaker 5: aimed at challenging detection attribution findings making the claim that oh, no, no, no,

1954
01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:27,760
Speaker 5: it was natural variation that caused this according to our findings. Like,

1955
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:32,040
Speaker 5: I think that sort of science denial is quite possible

1956
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:33,080
Speaker 5: for our future.

1957
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,799
Speaker 1: The way they funded studies of like the other causes

1958
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:37,640
Speaker 1: of lung cancer and things like that.

1959
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:40,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do think that sin Sorry, this is getting

1960
01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:43,160
Speaker 6: a bit broader, but I do think that attacking the

1961
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:49,559
Speaker 6: public health science and how it attributes damages is an

1962
01:52:49,560 --> 01:52:51,760
Speaker 6: area you know, we actually I know that Excellent has

1963
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:55,080
Speaker 6: been funding malaria research I think at Oxford, want to say,

1964
01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:57,080
Speaker 6: or maybe Cambridge for a long time. You know, in

1965
01:52:57,160 --> 01:53:00,320
Speaker 6: it's obvious why because it will get worse because of

1966
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:02,680
Speaker 6: the booming. But I think that that could be an

1967
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:08,679
Speaker 6: area where we see emerging tentacles, you know, going into

1968
01:53:08,920 --> 01:53:09,960
Speaker 6: two academic research.

1969
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:13,760
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting to look back on the the

1970
01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:20,080
Speaker 3: Exxon Valdez disaster in Prince William Sound, where uh, there

1971
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:27,719
Speaker 3: was disastrous oil spill killing tremendous amount of sea wildlife.

1972
01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:32,680
Speaker 3: Exon funded a bunch of studies looking at willingness to

1973
01:53:32,760 --> 01:53:35,519
Speaker 3: pay and trying to essentially shave off some of the

1974
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:38,080
Speaker 3: liability costs that were used. And these were all used

1975
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:40,640
Speaker 3: in course, and they very well known academics, including some

1976
01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:44,360
Speaker 3: here at this prestigious institution, took their money and did

1977
01:53:44,439 --> 01:53:47,000
Speaker 3: these studies that could say, well, it wasn't really worth

1978
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:49,599
Speaker 3: that much money, you know, in terms of killing all

1979
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:53,640
Speaker 3: these birds and aldoris et cetera. Well, exactly how much

1980
01:53:53,680 --> 01:53:55,840
Speaker 3: would you pay for the bird? And so I think

1981
01:53:55,920 --> 01:53:57,439
Speaker 3: in the long run we may see that sort of

1982
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,680
Speaker 3: studies stickets ugly head up as well.

1983
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:07,200
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, I have another question from a viewer. It's

1984
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:10,320
Speaker 1: hard to imagine this is Grace Poudrier. It's hard to

1985
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 1: imagine the state being able to regulate disinformation effectively when

1986
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:18,280
Speaker 1: the federal government is itself a huge polluter. Yes, Department

1987
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:21,879
Speaker 1: of Defense, et cetera. Its own agencies suffer from revolving

1988
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:25,720
Speaker 1: door hires. Polluters become regulators and vice versa. How do

1989
01:54:25,800 --> 01:54:29,840
Speaker 1: you think about regulatory capture in state agencies and federal

1990
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:32,000
Speaker 1: agencies for that matter. Does that play a role in

1991
01:54:32,480 --> 01:54:33,720
Speaker 1: curbing disinformation?

1992
01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:36,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to say goodbye, well.

1993
01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:49,560
Speaker 7: Miss you, thank you so much, just saus So, that's

1994
01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 7: such a good question.

1995
01:54:50,800 --> 01:54:53,480
Speaker 5: And as we saw during the Trump administration, sometimes the

1996
01:54:53,920 --> 01:54:58,160
Speaker 5: government can be the purveyor of climate disinformation. So one

1997
01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:02,160
Speaker 5: of the reasons that people are concerned about so one

1998
01:55:02,200 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 5: of the First Amendment rationales for not having the government

1999
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:08,720
Speaker 5: decide what is true and false is concern about having

2000
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:12,760
Speaker 5: that decision making authority situated within a centralized government. That

2001
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:15,160
Speaker 5: can you know, you have a change in administration suddenly

2002
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:17,600
Speaker 5: of President Trump being the guy who decides what's true

2003
01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:17,960
Speaker 5: and false.

2004
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 7: You don't want that.

2005
01:55:19,240 --> 01:55:23,160
Speaker 5: So that's actually, in my mind, possibly a rationale for

2006
01:55:23,320 --> 01:55:28,600
Speaker 5: why litigation is a perhaps good strategy for dealing with

2007
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:31,680
Speaker 5: issues of disinformation, because rather than having a centralized government

2008
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:33,880
Speaker 5: agency that says this is true and this is false,

2009
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:37,680
Speaker 5: you have a more decentralized system of adjudicating disputes, and

2010
01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:41,160
Speaker 5: you know, the focus could be on massive public deception

2011
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:44,120
Speaker 5: schemes like what we've seen with tobacco and climate change.

2012
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:49,600
Speaker 5: You have obstensibly neutral fact finders looking at information after

2013
01:55:49,720 --> 01:55:52,280
Speaker 5: the fact, not sort of making advanced decisions about what's

2014
01:55:52,360 --> 01:55:54,000
Speaker 5: true and false. And so a lot of the First

2015
01:55:54,040 --> 01:55:59,480
Speaker 5: Amendment concerns about having the government arbitrating truth and falsehoods

2016
01:55:59,840 --> 01:56:02,880
Speaker 5: are I think less compelling as a reason to not

2017
01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:04,960
Speaker 5: have this happening in the court. So maybe we could

2018
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,200
Speaker 5: try to get at this through litigation for that reason.

2019
01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:12,800
Speaker 6: I was hoping that our Steam senior former government employee

2020
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:15,520
Speaker 6: would have some thoughts, but apparently he didn't like the question.

2021
01:56:17,200 --> 01:56:20,080
Speaker 6: I don't have much to add, but you're at your

2022
01:56:20,120 --> 01:56:23,200
Speaker 6: additions that it's not just state agencies but also federal

2023
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:26,280
Speaker 6: to federal government with large I mean, you know, it's

2024
01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 6: obvious that the hearings we were talking about the House investigations.

2025
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:33,600
Speaker 6: You know, I think, who knows where politics is going

2026
01:56:33,640 --> 01:56:35,840
Speaker 6: to take us soon, and so I think there are

2027
01:56:35,880 --> 01:56:38,520
Speaker 6: pressures in that regard to get their work done. You know,

2028
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:42,840
Speaker 6: on these cases. That's just a quick thought. I think

2029
01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:45,520
Speaker 6: there are other people's from probably more qualified to answer that.

2030
01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:49,160
Speaker 1: Does anyone else in the room want to speak to that?

2031
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2032
01:56:53,160 --> 01:56:56,920
Speaker 9: Can I just have you introduce yourself, Brad Campbell from

2033
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:01,440
Speaker 9: the Conservation Law Foundation. There is a revolving door problem

2034
01:57:01,520 --> 01:57:05,320
Speaker 9: in terms of agency capture, and it's not just the

2035
01:57:05,360 --> 01:57:10,120
Speaker 9: Trump administration. One of the most senior climate officials in

2036
01:57:10,240 --> 01:57:13,720
Speaker 9: the Obama White House went directly to the board of

2037
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:19,280
Speaker 9: one of the big biggest franking companies right after the administration.

2038
01:57:21,160 --> 01:57:25,720
Speaker 9: Pifos was mentioned earlier when I'm a former regulator, when

2039
01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:29,280
Speaker 9: we were considering regulating pifos at the state level, a

2040
01:57:29,400 --> 01:57:33,839
Speaker 9: former deputy administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency a company

2041
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:37,080
Speaker 9: DuPont to tell us that give us all the reasons

2042
01:57:37,120 --> 01:57:42,080
Speaker 9: why we shouldn't regulate pifos, including things that were just

2043
01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:45,920
Speaker 9: that I could google and look up and we're patently false.

2044
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:49,320
Speaker 9: So I do think that's a component of the problem

2045
01:57:49,440 --> 01:57:53,120
Speaker 9: in terms of how when they go back into government,

2046
01:57:53,280 --> 01:57:56,680
Speaker 9: as they often do, how willing they are to actually

2047
01:57:56,800 --> 01:58:02,880
Speaker 9: take on very powerful companies when, whether consciously or not,

2048
01:58:04,120 --> 01:58:08,200
Speaker 9: they may be seeking employment there or in the enabler

2049
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:10,440
Speaker 9: industry after their public service.

2050
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:16,680
Speaker 1: Okay, that's the end of our time, guys. I really

2051
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:18,960
Speaker 1: appreciate all of you in your work and all of

2052
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:23,120
Speaker 1: you in this room and everyone watching and listening. Yeah,

2053
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:35,120
Speaker 1: this is great. That's it for this time. Thanks for

2054
01:58:35,240 --> 01:58:37,920
Speaker 1: joining us, and we'll see you back here next week.

2055
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:43,640
Speaker 1: Drilled is an original Critical Frequency production. The show was

2056
01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 1: created and reported by me Ami Westervelt. Original music and

2057
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 1: mixing and mastering for this episode by Peter duff.

2058
01:58:52,200 --> 01:58:53,160
Speaker 3: Our artwork is.

2059
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:56,720
Speaker 1: By Matthew Fleming. You can find us online at Drilled

2060
01:58:56,800 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. You can also find us on Twitter

2061
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:05,080
Speaker 1: at we are Drilled. For ad free episodes and bonus content,

2062
01:59:05,360 --> 01:59:08,440
Speaker 1: you can sign up for our newsletter at drilled podcast

2063
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Speaker 1: dot com or our Patreon at patreon dot com slash

2064
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