1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, they 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: call me Ben. We are joined with our super producer 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You 7 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: you to know. Our compatriot Knoll is currently traveling but 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: will be returning soon, So no worries there. I've got 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: to say, Matt, it's a it's interesting now too. Just 11 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: just be back in the studio recording. Yes, we've been 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: gone for about a week doing live shows all around 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: the Northeast, and now we're We've researched a topic that 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: is very dark. We're sitting in this dark room. It 15 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: is Halloween as we record this. That's true. And yeah, 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: this is just a warning up front. You probably read 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: the title unless this is auto played somehow, this is 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: an episode about concentration camps, all of the various kinds, 19 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: including the most horrific iterations of this. So just be warned. 20 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: This is a topic not for sensitive listeners. Yeah, absolutely, 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: And the topic is so dark, in fact, that we 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: decided not to recap our tour on this episode. It 23 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: felt inappropriates. Will do that in a later episode. This 24 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: episode starts on a dark note, but we believe it 25 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: is of vital importance. We've all heard of concentration camps. 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: Most often these camps are associated with the Holocaust and 27 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: the actions of the National Socialist or Nazi regime in 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: Germany during World War Two, but that's not the whole story. Now, 29 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: those will kind of get into it further. Many of 30 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: those became extermination camps, which is an entirely different thing, right, Yeah, exactly. 31 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: So if you're like many people in the U. S. 32 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: Or in the Western world, then when you think of 33 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: concentration camps, you think exclusively of the horrific atrocities visited 34 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 1: upon German citizens during the war, or people who lived 35 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: in German controlled areas. But the phrase concentration camp goes 36 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: goes back much further. Correct, Yeah, that's correct. It's uh. 37 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: It wasn't always a purely German concept. It originated in 38 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: seven when the first reconcentration camps were set up in 39 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: Cuba by General Valeriano way Er, and this was he's 40 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: a Spanish general and he was rounding up or he 41 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: gave eight days two Cubans to leave or get to 42 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: these basically reconcentration camps, because he was basically attempting to 43 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: control the population, right all, a concentration camp is, when 44 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: you look at the definition, is um a way to 45 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: confine people based on certain perceived common attributes to a 46 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: single area so that they may be controlled or more 47 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: closely monitored. And usually it's a group that is considered 48 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: undesirable in some way. There's to the current regime. Yeah, yeah, 49 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: there's never been concentration camp of you know, people who 50 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: were very smart or very good at juggling, you know, 51 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: they haven't been rounded up and forced to juggle for 52 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: hours on end. Yes, or highly positive members of the 53 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: current social group, right right, Yeah, Concentration camps aren't for 54 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, movie stars and what else, Olympic athletes. In 55 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: some cases, this phrase concentration camp became a euphemism for 56 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: things like labor camps, re education camps, or most tragically, 57 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: as you have mentioned matt extermination camps, wherein prisoners or 58 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: detainees were intentionally sent to a single place for the 59 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: purpose of mass murder and typically when they were on 60 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: the way to an extermination camp or when extermination was 61 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: in the cards, they were told these would be labor camps, 62 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: re education camps. So it was deceit, trickery, chicanery that 63 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: led these people to these tragic ends. And you know, 64 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: another thing a lot of people don't know about this 65 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: topic is that concentration camps were set up in Germany 66 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: and by the Nazi Party prior to World War two, 67 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: actually beginning even and they were yet we're talking about 68 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: the ghetto ization, for instance, you can only live in 69 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: certain areas of the country or a city. We're also 70 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: talking about the I guess the change in purpose or 71 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: the change in motivation for the Nazi Party during World 72 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: War two, because originally they were attempting to in some cases, 73 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: they were attempting to force certain groups to immigrate, to 74 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: leave the country. Yeah, it was a measure to essentially 75 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: scare terrorize the own their own population of people living 76 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: in the area to leave. And then as the war 77 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: ignited and continued, the government began imprisoning people, are detaining 78 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: them to prevent them from leaving the country. And this 79 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: this involved um the forfeiture of all of their assets 80 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: unless they were able to hide them or somehow get 81 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: them out of the country. This also included, you know, 82 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: just in human levels of degradation, humiliation, torture, and then eventually, 83 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: as we know, genocide. And they were gunning for relatively, 84 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: in their opinion, relatively specific types of people, most notably 85 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: people of the Jewish faith, or even people who had 86 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: Jewish background or their family was Jewish. It didn't matter 87 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: what we're saying is it did not matter whether or 88 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: not they were practicing Judaism. You know, Yes, religion was 89 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: less of import than essentially where this group of people 90 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: was from and perhaps um what perceived political beliefs by 91 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: the Nazi party, right, they were treating this as a 92 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: matter of ethnicity, and this was a cause that was 93 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: meant to unify the non Jewish German people and get 94 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: them to support this insane, monstrous aim. There were other 95 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: groups that were also persecuted, also imprisoned, forced to work 96 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: as slaves, and then murdered. Those would include people who 97 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: had same sex orientation, you know what I mean that 98 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: This would also include the Roma, the historically called Gypsies 99 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: at the time. The Travelers also a lot of POW's 100 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: political prisoners, even Jehovah's witnesses and people of other religious 101 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: beliefs and faiths ended up in these camps. And these 102 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: groups were forced into hard labor under these brutal conditions, 103 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: and as we said, in many cases, they were led 104 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: to their deaths. The lead editors of the Encyclopedia of 105 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: Camps and Ghettos three to nine of the United States 106 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: Holocaust Warial Museum cataloged forty two thousand, five hundred Nazi 107 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: ghettos and camps throughout Europe, not just in Germany, but 108 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: in areas of France and Russia where German forces controlled 109 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: the communities. The authors of this, Jeffrey mcgargy and Martin Dean, 110 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: also they say this operated from nineteen thirty three to 111 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: ninety five, so as you said, Matt, before the beginning 112 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: of the Second World War. But they also cataloged how 113 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: many people were imprisoned in these sites or died, and 114 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: the numbers staggering. Yeah, it's somewhere between fifteen and twenty 115 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: million human beings. Yeah, and that again, it's staggering to 116 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: imagine that. What's also staggering to imagine is that we 117 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: I guess humanity somewhat learned from their mistakes in this way, 118 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: and yet we still after World War Two, continued putting 119 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: people in camps like this, again, not extermination camps, but 120 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: camps that concentrate a certain group of people. Right, And 121 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: when we say not extermination camps, we have to be 122 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: very clear and that we don't know of we don't 123 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: we don't know of something certainly not on that scale. 124 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: But concentration camps were not just relegated to wars of 125 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: yesteryear and even in the days of World War two, 126 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: they were not relegated to Europe. Roosevelt himself authorized the 127 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: mass incarceration and internment of Japanese American citizens. And when 128 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: he did this, he called those locations where these innocent men, women, 129 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: and children were detained, he called them concentration camps. They 130 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: were concentrating the Japanese American population. Yeah, And the people 131 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: that got caught up, caught up in these camps were 132 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: about a hundred and twelve thousand people. They're both first 133 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: generation and second generation Japanese Americans. Most of them were 134 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: living on the West coast and they were forced to 135 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: temporarily go to these places where they were relocated. There 136 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: they called them. Uh, like you said, concentration camps and 137 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: relocation camps, and they had to go there regardless of 138 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: whether or not they were full citizens, right, right. And 139 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: the second generation thing is very important too, because imagine 140 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: that your grandparents came to the US from Japan or 141 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: maybe even from Hawaii or something right where there's a 142 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: large Japanese population, and you don't speak Japanese. You have 143 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: like a weird Bay Area California accent, if anything. You 144 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: were wondering when you were going to be drafted for 145 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: the army. Yeah, and you end up here just because 146 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: of your heritage and because of the perceived security risk 147 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: that the government saw at the time. Now in I 148 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: has it hate to say in the US's defense, Uh, 149 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: let's say instead, in the interest of accuracy, so far 150 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: as we know, despite this great and unforgivable injustice that 151 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: the US committed against its own citizens, people were not 152 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: being tortured and murdered. We also should mention that at 153 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: the same time there were hundreds of Italian Americans and 154 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: German Americans who were not detained. But we're banned from 155 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: going to certain areas on both the East and the 156 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: West coast. Again for concerns of of spying and espionage. Yeah, well, 157 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: we noticed that a lot of what we're going to 158 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: be hearing about for the rest of the day or 159 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: this episode at least, is the concerns from the governments 160 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: are security based generally when something like this is enacted generally, 161 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: because there are a few cases where it is not 162 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: um and that is not to excuse it in any way. 163 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: It's just you can see them the perhaps the motivation 164 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: behind the powers making these things happen. I would say, 165 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. I would say there's it feels like 166 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: that's the official explanation often, but you know, it's going 167 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: to be up to you folks to see how much 168 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: on a case by case basis this claim holds water. 169 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: Because that's the thing. I think that's the elephant in 170 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: the room that we've been waiting to mention here, and 171 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: we should get it out of the way now. Concentration camps, 172 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: as as I think you alluded to earlier, Matt never 173 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: really went away. They are still here in the modern day. 174 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: That is baffling, That is beyond disturbing, That is genuinely 175 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: terrifying to realize that here as we record this episode 176 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: in countries around the world are actively creating new concentration camps, 177 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: new institutions founded on ethnic discrimination and with some of 178 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: the same rific and sane practices found in the concentration 179 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: camps from Germany. It's still happening. Yeah, and we're going 180 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: to take a closer look right after this word from 181 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Although nothing currently 182 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: exists on the scale of Nazi concentration camps, at least again, 183 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: nothing that we know of yet, the truth is that, 184 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: as we said, countries across the planet are actively detaining 185 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: citizens for for different reasons that are seen as egregious 186 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: or threatening by the government. We mentioned ethnicity. There's also 187 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: legal status, are you are you not a citizen of 188 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: this country? Uh, perceived political opinions, do you are you 189 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: suspected of wanting to topple the regime? And so on? 190 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: Or of course they're religious beliefs, among other things. And 191 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: our first example here um comes from across us the Pacific. 192 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: It's something that is astonishing in terms of scale. It's 193 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: by far one of the largest active detainment operations on 194 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: the planet today, and it's occurring in Western China. One 195 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: of China's biggest boons and problems is that it has 196 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: so many people one point four billion residents. That's uh, 197 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: that's a lot of mouths to feed and a lot 198 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: of jobs to to you know, that are needed. There's 199 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: just that comes there come a lot of issues with 200 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: having that many people and the People's Republic of China 201 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: again being the world's most populous country. Um, it's it's 202 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: attempting in its own way to deal with something that 203 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: it perceives as a problem. Um. Although the government of 204 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: course wouldn't officially come out and make a statement anything 205 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: to to this effect, it is it is in a 206 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: constant struggle to unifor by its citizenship because it is 207 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: so huge. There are so many people from different ethnic 208 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: and backgrounds, from different countries that have assimilated into China. Um, 209 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: it is trying to create one China essentially, right overall, 210 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: That's that's one of its biggest, biggest goals. Speaking about 211 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: China as though it's a person, but it is the 212 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: People's Party, the People's Republic of China, and they do 213 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: have a large I guess unifying goals in that way. Right. 214 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: So this is this is something weird because here in 215 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: the West China is often presented as somewhat of a 216 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: monolithic entity, right, and we will typically hear of two 217 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: places where there is some sort of domestic tension or friction. 218 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: That would be Tibet and that would be Taiwan. However, 219 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, domestically, the governing party of China is 220 00:15:54,760 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: in a constant struggle to a sity mi late it's 221 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: ethnic groups, because China is not just one people, there's 222 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: a myriad of ethnic groups. The dominant ethnic group is 223 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: the Han h A N, and they enjoy vast advantages 224 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: over many other groups or communities there And for for comparison, 225 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: we could say, consider consider other countries with caste systems 226 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: or other countries with uh systemic racism, and you will 227 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: see that the Han enjoy different advantages. Typically, you you 228 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: will be more likely to have a better job, maybe 229 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: a better shot at career advancement. You'll probably come from 230 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: you'll have a better chance of coming from a good family, 231 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: by which we only mean financially well off, and you'll 232 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: have a better chance of going to a good school 233 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: and so on, all those all those things like if 234 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: you ever hear the phrase uh, this person started life 235 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: on third base and then called it a home run 236 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 1: kind of thing. It's it's similar to that. And of 237 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: course that doesn't apply to everyone because there are billions 238 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: of people there, but it does apply and statistically appears 239 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: out and many regions of China our home to people 240 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: with the unique non Han culture. You know, we mentioned Tibet, 241 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: but in this case we're exploring a far western region 242 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: of China known as Xinyang, and Xinyang is located it's 243 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: so far west Man, it's pretty much Eurasia. Yeah. If 244 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: you're looking at a map of China, which is huge, Yes, 245 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: it's huge, you're gonna see Tibet kind of in the 246 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: southwestern corner, and like Mongolia is kind of on the 247 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: on the northern side in between those two. If you 248 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: keep going west, just up there in the corner um 249 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: as you're just pushing for like further and further west, 250 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: you you'll see it. Yeah. And this this area is 251 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: largely populated by a group of people known as Weaker's 252 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: U y g h u r S. These are the 253 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: descendants of communities who traveled along the legendary trade route 254 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: known as the Silk Road. They are overwhelmingly Muslim, and 255 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: for years and years and years, the Chinese government has 256 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: tried various strategies to assimilate this population. Right, begin to 257 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: think of yourself not as Weakers, but as Chinese nationals. 258 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: That's a that's a tall order for people with with 259 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: so much of of a history that that is different, 260 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, from from that Chinese the Chinese culture. Yeah, 261 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: that's not an easy task from either side to to 262 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: either change even just a one family to completely change 263 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: their cultural identity from the inside or from the outside, right, right, 264 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: And it's a distinct, unique culture. The food is different, 265 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: the language is different, the script that they would write 266 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: with might be different, and many of the of course, 267 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: the religious celebrations are different. So in recent years, after 268 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 1: about two thousand nine or so, the Chinese government resorted 269 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: to putting people in something they call re education centers. 270 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: These are detainment camps. These are concentration camps. And the population, 271 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: which is understandably incredibly um frightened by this. The population 272 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: has had to start describing this stuff circuitously or making 273 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: illusions and euphemisms. So you won't say someone has been 274 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: sent off to a camp. You will say that they 275 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: went to school. So so what are what what's to 276 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: deal with these camps, Matt, Well, one of the biggest 277 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: deals is the number of people that are trapped in them. 278 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: And it is not a situation where you are sent 279 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: there uh to be re educated and then you get 280 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: to leave or you know, you you're voluntarily re educated. No, no, no, 281 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: you are detained and sent to one of these camps. 282 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: And there are one million human beings there right now. 283 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: Almost all of them was the minorities, the weakers that 284 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: we talked about, the Kazakhs, the Uzbeks, the Hui and others. 285 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: Um again, almost over a million of them currently detained 286 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: in this massive network of internment camps, all in the 287 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: northwestern Chinese territory that we talked about, jin jin Yang. 288 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: And these camps are part of a campaign that the 289 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: PRC refers to as Strike Hard, which just sounds sounds 290 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: like a weird, terrible early nineties cop show Strike Hard. Yeah, 291 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: it's just a bad train relation, I want to say, probably. Yeah, 292 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: that's a good point, Matt. So this program allegedly uses 293 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: extra judicial detention that all that means is that you 294 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: get locked up and you don't get a trial. That 295 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: means you don't have to do process or anything. Like that, 296 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, like one of the most terrifying things that 297 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: could possibly happen to you, right right. Uh. They will 298 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: also use surveillance, political indoctrination or re education, which you 299 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: know is essentially brainwashing, also physical torture and abuse to 300 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: root out extremist elements. And we in the rest of 301 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: the world know about this because there is a growing 302 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: mass of evidence, not just witness accounts, but media reports 303 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: and also government documents and then fly over satellite images 304 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: that confirm these are real locations. Recently, a U S 305 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: Congressional Commission on China called this quote the largest mass 306 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: incarceration of a minority population in the world today. We 307 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: we talked about how this started relatively recently to two 308 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: thousand nine or so, but why it began for a 309 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: reason that much as sure there were there was a 310 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: series of violent, weaker riots in two thousand nine, and 311 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: they continued up until about two thousand and sixteen, and 312 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: they were truly violent. It's not as though you know, 313 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: this was this was not a thing at all and 314 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: completely unsubstantiated, at least the fears on the part of 315 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: um the government. There were some very violent actions that 316 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: took place. Yes, absolutely these are what we today referred 317 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: to as the July two thousand nine or rom Chi riots. 318 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: I am mispronouncing this, I apologize. So the riots lasted 319 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: over several days starting the fifth of July, and people 320 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: started disappearing. The riots escalated into violent attacks that targeted 321 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: people of the Han ethnicity, and at this point, still 322 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: years later, we don't officially know how many how many 323 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: Weaker died or how many Han died, But as as 324 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: a result of this from the Chinese perspective, something had 325 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: to be done. They had to get control of a separatist, 326 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: extremist group that could cause instability in the country. Because 327 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: the the Chinese attitude on human rights is very different 328 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: from the Western attitude on human rights. Things that are 329 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: considered like civic or civil rights in the US are 330 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: often prioritized uh with a little bit more weight, and 331 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: things that are considered economic rights like the right to 332 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: have a good job and the right to progress financially 333 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: and so on, those are more heavily weighted in the 334 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: Chinese year. And this means that um, the best way 335 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: for the government to keep people from rioting in the 336 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: streets and throwing the world into anarchy means the best 337 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: way for them to do that is to guarantee uh, 338 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: financial progress, economic growth, things like that, because this is 339 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: this is just a speculative thing, because a lot of 340 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: experts on China will tell you that the government is 341 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: much more vulnerable to instability than it would have us believe. 342 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, anytime you're trying to unify that many people 343 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: into one thing, any small uprising could become a larger 344 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: movement pretty quickly. And so yeah, and we want to 345 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: be fair and say that from that Chinese perspective, from 346 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: this pro I can't believe we're saying this, matt from 347 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: this pro concentration camp perspective, what they are doing is 348 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: curtailing a few individual rights and the interest of the 349 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: greater good and the economic rights of the country, or 350 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: the need to unify under one voice, one flag, and 351 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: so on. Yeah, and they say they're preventing the rise 352 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: of domestic terrorism. That's the that's the official thing, right, Yeah, 353 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta break a few rights to save 354 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: the omelet of unity. I don't know, that's that's the attitude. Right, 355 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: That's a terrible comparison, and again not our opinion, just 356 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: trying to see it from the other side. Right, that's 357 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: one of the things we try and do here. So 358 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: as as word of these these camps begin, the official 359 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: PR line was, at least in the beginning, what are 360 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: you talking about? What camps? Yeah? See that's okay. See 361 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: that's the sketchy part because the first it began as 362 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: a true conspiracy. They conspired to kidnap these people, and 363 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: and they conspired to say it wasn't happening. But eventually, 364 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: just like the recent Saudi murder of the journalists, eventually 365 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: the facts were just too apparent, and so they changed 366 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: their tone and they said, oh, okay, we didn't know 367 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: what you were talking about at first. We don't have 368 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: concentration camps, but we do have something that we like 369 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: to call vocational training centers. Tight, okay, so like job 370 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: corps or something. Right, Yeah, that's exactly what it sounds like. 371 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: So they deny allegations of any persecution. They claim that 372 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: all the measures used are meant to improve stability and 373 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: solidarity to the Far West, which is, by the way, 374 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: we said they were over in estimated over one million 375 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: people detained. The population of the area is only like 376 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: twelve million. At least, they're they're twelve million Muslim minorities 377 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: of of one ethnicity or another. And that means that 378 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: a little under of the population has been in one 379 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: of these things or will be in one of these 380 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: things is now And they said, it's not about religion. 381 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: Oh no, they said, quote, China protects the religious freedoms 382 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: of its people. All ethnic groups in China enjoy full 383 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: religious freedom according to the law. And that's from Gang 384 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: shuong U, spokesman for the PRC's Foreign Ministry. He said 385 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: that in September of very recently. Yeah, the United Nations, 386 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: by the way, completely disagrees. They say this is malarkey. 387 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: You have to release everyone has been detained and will. 388 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: We'll see what happens in the coming months, because you know, 389 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: China is a huge force in the world. So what 390 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: what could mitigate or ameliorate this situation. Let's let's talk 391 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: about what happens in the camps. Also, this is a 392 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: statement we'll hear multiple times in this episode. Uh. Supporters 393 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: of the practice have said these are not like concentration camps. 394 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: It's like summer camp, you know what I mean. We're 395 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: training people to better improve their economic opportunities. We've heard 396 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: that comparison recently in the news here in the United 397 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: States as well, but we will get into that later. 398 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: So in the camps, there are things like sing alongs. 399 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: Detainees are forced to sing patriotic songs for probably an 400 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: average of two hours on most days. They have to 401 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: memorize a ten point disciplinary code, and they have to 402 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: participate in self criticism sessions. Do you know what those are? 403 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: It sounds like scientology, It's kind of it is kind 404 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: of CULTI uh, A lot of places do this. Scientology 405 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: does do this as well, or something similar, I imagine. 406 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: So a self criticism session is when you get together 407 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: with a group of people, you know, maybe it's your family, 408 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: maybe it's your co workers, maybe it's members of or 409 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: um nonprofit, your religious organization, whatever. You all sit down 410 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: together and you talk about how much you have screwed up, 411 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: how you've screwed up more than anyone, and how fortunate 412 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: you are to get a chance to improve, and how 413 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: much you want to improve, but what terrible, terrible things 414 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: you've done, and how inadequate and insignificant you are compared 415 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: to what is normal or good. So, for instance, if 416 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: there was something like this for podcasters or self criticism session, 417 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: and when you sit in the room and we would say, oh, man, 418 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: I know deadline. I'm so terrible at deadlines. I'm the worst. 419 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: And you know, when it comes to editing an outline 420 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: or when it comes to doing a q A or something, 421 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: I am just a human stain. I have no idea 422 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: why I'm here. I'm grateful though, I'm grateful that the 423 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: and then you would name whatever the authority figure was like, 424 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm grateful the the authorities have given someone as lowly 425 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: and I don't know, stinky is me a chance to 426 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: to try to be a little less subhuman And then 427 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: it probably goes to your left of your right someone else's. 428 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: They may join in and criticize you. But the main 429 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: thing is when it's their turn they try to kind 430 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: of one up you with self criticism. They have to 431 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: be like, oh, you're a you're a humans. I'm not 432 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: even a human stain. I'm just I'm like sloppy dirt. 433 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm like dirt with poop on it. It sounds like 434 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. It's supposed to, I think inspire 435 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: people to move towards honesty, but psychologically that that sounds 436 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: clearly manipulative. Right to make you be your own enemy. 437 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: And then of course you have to in these camps, 438 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: you have to monitor other people. Oh yeah, that's one 439 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: of the big things. If you're you could basically get 440 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: put on night watch, and you have to check your 441 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: fellow detainees and make sure people don't turn away from 442 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: the cameras that are set up to make sure everybody's 443 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: sleeping and or in the same you know, you're where 444 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be. Essentially, Um, that's pretty messed up. Um. 445 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: And and let's talk about how some of the criteria 446 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: I guess for how people end up in these camps. 447 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: Oh man, this is so insane that at first I 448 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: wondered whether it was Western propaganda. And I have I'm 449 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and say I think some of it 450 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: feels like it could be. Yeah. Yeah. So we found 451 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: a list assembled by Tanner Greer over at foreign policy 452 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: dot com. Uh. This was in September this month as well, 453 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: and Tanner cited forty eight reasons that are apparently on 454 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: the books. Forty eight reasons that people were detained or 455 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: sent to one of these camps in Western China. Some 456 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: of them makes sense. Some of them makes sense, like Um, 457 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. Owning multiple knives, I guess, yeah, that's weird. 458 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: But owning a tent, yeah, owning owning a tent, owning 459 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: welding equipment, having extra food somewhere in your domicile or 460 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: with you arguing with an official makes sense. But telling 461 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: people not to swear, that's weird. Yeah. Well, and then 462 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: you get into some of the religious discrimination here where 463 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, if you're if you're a Muslim in you 464 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: don't drink alcohol and you don't smoke cigarettes. So that's 465 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do. They send someone to they 466 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: send someone to a camp for that, Yeah, at least 467 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: allegedly according to this um. But then you know, they're 468 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of other ones. Gosh, not letting officials take 469 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: your d n A, or speaking your native language in school, 470 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: not speaking Chinese, which completely would make sense perhaps to 471 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: some of the population. Sorry, and that's Mandarin specifically. Um, 472 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: but you know then okay, here's where we're gonna play 473 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: Devil's advocate a little bit too. Right. So there were 474 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: these vent acts that occur two thousand nine to two 475 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, and then according to the government, these are 476 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: re education camps, right, these are vocation camps. Then if 477 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: you're if you're looking at a population that, in your 478 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: mind as the government has the potential at least elements 479 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: within this population have the potential to be violent or 480 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: perhaps even in your mind become radicalized is a word 481 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: we can use there. I think there are things on 482 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: this list like having a VPN, having What's App, speaking 483 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: with someone abroad via Skype, traveling abroad, knowing people who 484 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: have traveled abroad, speaking with someone who has traveled abroad. 485 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: I can imagine some of these as the criteria as 486 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: being a little more at least make a little more 487 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: sense to me personally, just because we have researched before 488 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: how isis was infiltrating other countries, specifically through those means, 489 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: through What'sapp, through we Chat and Skype and some of 490 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: these other um apps where there was communication occurring across 491 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: borders and in attempt to radicalize a small population. Yeah. Yeah, 492 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: And that's why I think that's a really fair and 493 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: valid point too, because that is how some of those 494 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: networks have spread and found new recruits. But how do 495 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: you apply that to a million people also owning a tent, 496 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: having speaking your native language at school? Um, having a 497 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: full beard is one of those. Yeah, what's the other 498 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: eating breakfast before the sun's up? Did I mention that 499 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: one already? Yeah, that's that's pretty messed up. It's strange. 500 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: And we were trying to find more specific anecdotes about this. 501 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: One weaker interviewee told Human Rights Watch that he just 502 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: stopped using his phone because he couldn't tell which websites 503 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: would be okay for him to go on and which 504 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: would get him in trouble. And then another person who 505 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to be identified, she said that she just 506 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: stopped talking to neighbors and strangers altogether because she was 507 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: worried she might accidentally say something that she didn't know 508 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: was across the line and then get arrested. Jeez. So 509 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: she just decided to she just went full drake. No 510 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: new friends. I'm just gonna I'm just going to talk 511 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: to people I already know, and even talking to them, 512 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: I will exercise some caution, man. And you know we 513 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: have there are so many places online right now where 514 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: you can read a personal account of a family member 515 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: perhaps being taken to one of these. In a few cases, 516 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: we actually have accounts of an individual who ended up 517 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: in one of these camps for a short amount of time, right, yeah, 518 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: we do. We have a story of a twenty three 519 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 1: year old woman named Gooley who was picked up by 520 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: police in a park in Rumchi in June, and she 521 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: was uh. She was sentenced to fifteen days in a 522 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: detention center fifteen days at quote unquote school for not 523 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: having her I D with her, and local authorities had 524 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: already had her on their radar because there have been 525 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: reports that she wore a hejab, which she weren't supposed 526 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: to do under the age of forty five there and 527 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: that she also prayed yeah um and and she said 528 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: when she was there, she was detained with another two 529 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: and thirty people roughly, and most of the women there 530 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: were weaker or Kazakh, a fewer Han Chinese. Even which 531 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: you know this this feels more like a it's tough 532 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: when you when you're noticed that there's that larger range 533 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: of people that perhaps there is even more social um 534 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: social motivation. But behind these things like truly truly re 535 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: education camps where I don't want to say it, but 536 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: perhaps brainwashing is a cur r where you're trying to 537 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 1: fully change people's thinking to assimilate I mean, it feels 538 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: very bored to me in that way, even if you've 539 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: got you know, han in there. And Googley spoke to 540 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 1: other people while she was in there. She said one 541 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: woman told her that police found this Happy d message 542 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: for her on her phone. This is a Muslim holiday, 543 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: and another that she spoke to said that she had 544 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: been there for ten years. Yeah, D is the end 545 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: of Ramadan, so it's it's essentially the same thing as 546 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: saying Merry Christmas. You know what I mean, Yes, you 547 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: found that message on your phone. Well, because that was 548 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: another part of the requirements. There are reasons that people 549 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: were in the detention centers because you didn't allow authorities 550 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: full access to your phone and allowing them to back 551 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: up and download everything on your phone. And yeah, it's true, 552 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: it's true. And the guards would practice intimidation with the 553 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: detainees or the inmates. The guards regularly told Googley again, 554 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: according to her account, that she would be imprisoned for 555 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: another six months for some arbitrary reason. They would shout 556 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: at inmates for speaking, for walking your windows, or for 557 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: not always speaking in Chinese. Googli saw a woman in 558 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: a cell across from hers who had her hand chain, 559 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: her hands chained to her feet for four days. And 560 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: then there was another guy, a Kaza Muslim as well, 561 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: named Kirat Samarkand who was forced to wear something that 562 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: he called iron clothes, an outfit of iron claws and 563 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: rods that left him immobile in like a star like 564 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: five pointed star position, and one time he had to 565 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: wear it for twelve hours because he refused to make 566 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: his bed um. And although they were not told outright 567 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: to renounce their faith, they were continually inundated with messages 568 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: like there is no religion. The government and the party 569 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: will take care of you. There's no God. Before each meal, 570 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: they had to thank that he's President jin Ping. They 571 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: were required to learn the names of all the top 572 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: Chinese leaders and they had to recite them in different 573 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: chants along with their songs. We found one of the 574 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 1: chants as well. If there were no party, if there 575 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: were no j in Ping, there would be no country. 576 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: There you go, that's a that's one chance, super catchy, right, Yeah, 577 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: I wonder if it rhymes in Mandarin, but tell tell 578 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: us if it does. But there are other chants to write. Yeah, 579 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: he also got at all times, I should be civilized, honest, 580 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: respect my elders, obey laws, dress neatly, love work, and 581 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: be industrious and frugal. I am a citizen who obeys 582 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: laws and regulations. Dropped the beat. Wow, it's scary stuff. 583 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: But we do know that the repeated pronunciation of certain phrases, 584 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: or even just thinking those phrases over and over again, 585 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: can change change the way you think it, can influence 586 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: it to a great degree. And currently this situation is ongoing. 587 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: I think the United Nations is tempting to hold some 588 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: meetings about it in the near future. As we record this, 589 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: we will hopefully have some sort of update. But you 590 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: can see pretty clearly that from the Chinese government's perspective 591 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: this is a necessary thing to do um and you 592 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: can see from the other side, from the rest of 593 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: the world's perspective, and especially from the weaker perspective, this 594 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: is assimilation and colonization. I would I would ask you 595 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: to check out some of the documentaries about what's going 596 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: on in that part of the world if you would 597 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: like to learn more. But what the Chinese government is 598 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: doing is they're taking people to haunt ethnicity from other 599 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: parts of China, usually rural parts, and they're sending them 600 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: out as settlers in this area. They're giving them the 601 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: best land for farming, and they're pushing the weakers increasingly 602 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: to the fringes of society if they do not assimilate. 603 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: This is ongoing. Uh, these are these do fit the 604 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: definition of concentration camps. They're not acts of genocide yet. 605 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: There they're concentrating people of the specific ethnicity or religion 606 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: in a single place and attempting to change them, change them, 607 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: and also change the areas in which they used to 608 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: live exactly. And this this sounds pretty messed up, right, 609 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: sounds really messed up. But wait, because these things get 610 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: so so much worse. While we're on the Asian continent. 611 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: Let's travel to the northeast. We're in the northwest. Now, 612 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: let's go to the northeast through the Democratic People's Republic 613 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 1: of Korea also known as North Korea, also known as 614 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: the Hermit Kingdom. It's a reclusive country ruled exclusively by 615 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: a single family, the Kim dynasty. And and uh, the 616 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: descendants in most cases now the descendants of families that 617 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: assisted the Kims in the days of the Korean War. Yeah, 618 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: and we've talked about this country before. The DPRK. We've 619 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: talked briefly about some of the labor camps that have 620 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: that exists there to this day, but let's just jump 621 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: back into it. For for decades, this country and the population, 622 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: the people that live there, they've been brutally repressed, forced 623 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: to participate in all kinds of propaganda activities. They've been 624 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: encouraged to spy on one another, and I mean this 625 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: is a huge one, like spying on one another, keeping 626 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: everybody else in line that's around you in your small 627 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: community wherever it is that you live. They also have 628 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,760 Speaker 1: to submit completely and absolutely to the person that is ruling, 629 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: which will always, at least for the foreseeable future, be 630 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,439 Speaker 1: someone in the Kim dynasty. They and by the way, 631 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: this is where it gets super weird for a lot 632 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: of people, me included. It borders on it borders on 633 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: being a cult where you are worshiping a leader or 634 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: a god in a way like yeah, religious fervor, almost absolutely, 635 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: and it's a forced thing or it's a let's say, 636 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: it's highly requested right right exactly. You can see this 637 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: in different documentaries. For instance, um, there's one where a 638 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: nonprofit has traveled to Korea too to help with medical conditions. 639 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: Especially they're working on people's eyes and helping restore or 640 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: improve their vision. And one person who had been blind 641 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: for some time has an operations so they can see again, 642 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: and they don't think the doctors. They fall to their 643 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: knees weeping, thanking a large portrait of I think it 644 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: was Kim John Gill at that time. This there's a 645 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: question here about how much of this is sincere, how 646 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: much of this is performative, you know what I mean. 647 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: And it's a good question. It's one that's tough to answer, 648 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: but especially if you have generations that have grown up 649 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: with this as just being normal everyday life. Just this 650 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: is how you function, and especially if ensures your good 651 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:19,879 Speaker 1: standing in the community. Because we're giving a relatively simplistic, 652 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: but overall accurate depiction in the social climate. One thing 653 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: a lot of outsiders don't understand about North Korean society 654 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: is that despite the fact that on paper it's an 655 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,240 Speaker 1: egalitarian country, you know, with equal rights for men, women, 656 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: so on, etcetera, the society and practice is closely governed 657 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: by a social hierarchy. It's highly stratified, and it is 658 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,240 Speaker 1: based on your family's position before and during the outbreak 659 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: of the Korean War. Yeah, and this is um something 660 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: that continues on within other aspects of the society. This 661 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 1: idea of the generations before you kind can have a 662 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: massive impact on how your life is going to be. 663 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, it's all in the blood, right, According 664 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: to researcher and a Korea expert, a guy from the 665 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: Brookings Institution conged on Oh, he says, since the nineteen fifties, 666 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: the Kim regime has subjected to people to a series 667 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,399 Speaker 1: of political examinations in order to sort out those who 668 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: are presumed to be loyal or disloyal to the regime. 669 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: I think for three years starting in nineteen seven, Kim 670 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: Il sung needed the entire population to be categorized into 671 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: three big groups. It was a loyal core class, and 672 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: then a suspect wavering class, and a politically unreliable hostile class, 673 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: kind of the untouchables. Geez, just three options there to 674 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,959 Speaker 1: be placed into. Well, you got, you got the three 675 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,879 Speaker 1: big options, But then you have a bunch of other 676 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: classifications in there, right, Oh yeah, So then so then 677 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: you get into fifty one sub categories such so let's 678 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,800 Speaker 1: look at the middle wavering class which is just a 679 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: very strange way to classify, um, those who in the 680 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: wavering class who have been landowners before the Communists came 681 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: to power, or those who had resided in the southern 682 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: half of Korea before nineteen So these are just ways 683 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: to separate people again a little bit further, depending on 684 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:34,880 Speaker 1: where they were what they were doing at that time. Right. Yeah, 685 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: and again you can still be in one of these 686 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: classes just based on your grandparents, your parents situation essentially 687 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: where they lived, and the political history of your parents. 688 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: Grandparents and even people as distant as your second cousins 689 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:55,360 Speaker 1: are also a determining factor in this process. In nineteen eighty, 690 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: I think they had a party congress meeting in the 691 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,399 Speaker 1: d p r K and about the population. One out 692 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: of four people fell into the loyal class, the core, 693 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 1: the good ones, and then one out of two people 694 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: were in the wavering class or like the middle class 695 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,360 Speaker 1: kind of thing, and the remaining were relegated to the 696 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,799 Speaker 1: hostile class. So the Bell curve, it makes sense. That's 697 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: generally statistically how it would work out, and it goes 698 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: deeper than we might imagine because these three classes that 699 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,399 Speaker 1: we mentioned enjoy or suffer from distinct differences in day 700 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,919 Speaker 1: to day society in the country. But remember, folks, how 701 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: Matt mentioned earlier that there was that your parents position 702 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: could affect you. It got even worse because for a 703 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 1: long time, the DPRK practice something called intergenerational punishment. So 704 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,480 Speaker 1: with this, and we mentioned it before in that other episode, 705 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: if someone, let's just say an individual attempts to escape 706 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: the count tree in some way to leave or repatriate 707 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,320 Speaker 1: their family, the people that they leave behind in the 708 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 1: DPRK can be punished for three generations. Now, when we 709 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: say three generations, we don't just mean your let's see 710 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,439 Speaker 1: this person's parents and their grandparents. No, we mean like 711 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: the sons and daughters, and then the grandsons and granddaughters, 712 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: and then continue on down for three generations, which is insane. 713 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,879 Speaker 1: This means that people who are denounced as politically unreliable, 714 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: they're felt guilty of political crimes. Of course, without the 715 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 1: bother of a trial and all that slow jazz, they 716 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: run the risk of being sent to along with the relatives, 717 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: being sent to a North Korean prison camp known as 718 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: a quality so k W A L l I s O. 719 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: And let's let's talk about what a quality. So is 720 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsor and we are back. 721 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: I've got the feeling that is going to be a 722 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: long episode. Man. Yeah, we just kind of power through. 723 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,839 Speaker 1: We got this. It's it's a rough topic. So they're 724 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,760 Speaker 1: currently in estimated eighty thousand to one hundred and twenty 725 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: thousand prisoners in these camps. It used to be a 726 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty to two d thousand back in the 727 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: nineties and early two thousand's, but due to famine deaths, 728 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: releases at some point, and the fortunately the eventual abandonment 729 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: of the punish your whole family practice, the number is down. Yeah. 730 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 1: And and this this is one of the most insane parts. 731 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: So detainees are a lot of the time told that 732 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: they are traders. You're a trader to this nation. You 733 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: have betrayed your leader, and you deserve to be executed. 734 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,280 Speaker 1: But the party, and it's good natured mercy, is allowing 735 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: you to work off what would be your execution and 736 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:52,280 Speaker 1: instead live. It's insane. Uh, and you're going to repay 737 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,440 Speaker 1: the nation through forced labor for the rest of your life. 738 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: These people are routinely starved and beaten. We've got an 739 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,280 Speaker 1: account from a guard who depicted just sickening, horrific conditions. 740 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,359 Speaker 1: People who have survived these camps and people who have 741 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,200 Speaker 1: researched them or commented on them, have compared the conditions 742 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 1: of these camps yeah to Central and Eastern Europe, to 743 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: the Nazi regimes concentration camps. And the general consensus is 744 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: that although this exists on a much smaller scale, it 745 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: is the closest modern thing to what to the atrocities 746 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:37,440 Speaker 1: of World War Two without being you know, without mass killings. Right, 747 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,040 Speaker 1: we have to always say that, well, there's still thousands 748 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,239 Speaker 1: of people dying, but not millions. And a lot of 749 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 1: the information does come from eyewitness accounts, which can be 750 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,760 Speaker 1: somewhat problematic because you don't know if those are propaganda 751 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 1: from the South Korean side. Uh, you don't know how 752 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,040 Speaker 1: accurate they may or may not be. There was a 753 00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: former guarded a political prisoners camp named on Young Trill, 754 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 1: and before he defected, he witnessed a lot of insane 755 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,879 Speaker 1: He insane is not a good word. I would say, 756 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: unholy things. Yeah, here, things will taint your soul. Well, 757 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: here you go prepared to be tainted. Quote. When I 758 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: first saw them, I thought we had captured a bunch 759 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: of the South Korean beggars we often see depicted on 760 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,359 Speaker 1: North Korean TV. One of my buddies said that later 761 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: he'd heard that midgets live in special communes, and he 762 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: thought we were entering such a village. The inmates were 763 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 1: all short, like midgets. They were walking skeletons, nothing but 764 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: skin and bone. They frightened me. On average, they are 765 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,520 Speaker 1: about four ft eleven. Their faces are covered with cuts 766 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,960 Speaker 1: and scars where they have been struck. Most have no ears, 767 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,360 Speaker 1: they have been beaten off. Many have crooked noses, or 768 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: only one eye, or one eye turned in its socket. Jesus, 769 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,800 Speaker 1: and we're using these words just because they were a 770 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: quote from his end. Right. That's not my Those are 771 00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: not my word. Right. The tortures and punishments included amputation, 772 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: mutilation of sexual organs, forced abortions, public executions, which will 773 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: later change to secret executions so that uh the prisoners 774 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: would not try to rise up. The prisoners are routinely 775 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,719 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, disavowed if they resist, even if they do 776 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: behave They may become victims of horrific medical experiments, including 777 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 1: exposure to extreme weather conditions to see how the body 778 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:37,719 Speaker 1: reacts exposure to poisons, substances, gases and so on, and vivisection. 779 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 1: The DPRK officially denies the existence of these camps, and 780 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 1: the international community is well aware of them, has confirmed 781 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: many of the reports from defectors, including their satellite imagery 782 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,920 Speaker 1: they found and so on. They're trying to be careful 783 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: to make sure they're not falling for propaganda. But there's 784 00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:02,719 Speaker 1: very little international pressure to end this, and that's the thing. 785 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: It used to be covered up. But the world knows 786 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 1: this is happening right now, and what do we do 787 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,400 Speaker 1: about it? Do you know, does the international community decide 788 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,920 Speaker 1: to invade the DPRCADE to put an end to it 789 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:23,799 Speaker 1: when they have at least some nukes right right, and 790 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:28,360 Speaker 1: when they are functionally a vassal state for China. Now 791 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,879 Speaker 1: this we want to be clear, this is not meant 792 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:37,200 Speaker 1: to be a hit piece on the practices of Asian countries. 793 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: We have two more examples here, and this is again 794 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,560 Speaker 1: just scratching the surface. Let's travel to Czechenia, officially known 795 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:49,160 Speaker 1: as the Chechen Republic. Czechenia is a republic Russia located 796 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,400 Speaker 1: off the North CAUCUSUS about sixty two miles from the 797 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: Caspian Sea. It doesn't pop up in the western news 798 00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 1: a lot today. It's it's kind of a small place 799 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: like xin young It is a majority Muslim region of 800 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: the population in the capital city are Muslim, overwhelmingly their 801 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: Sunni Muslim, and the republic is relatively small. Its population 802 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: has been heavily reduced uh Do as a result of 803 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 1: a series of conflicts, the Chessni and Russian conflicts most notably, 804 00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:25,319 Speaker 1: but this region appears to despite its small size and 805 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: relatively small population, it appears to have a dark and 806 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:34,800 Speaker 1: terrifying secret. Yeah. Around two thousands seven, reports began emerging, 807 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: specifically from the Russian paper Novaya Gazetta and several other 808 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,840 Speaker 1: human rights rights groups, and like we said online, just 809 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 1: things were popping up that the government of Chechnya was 810 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: actively kidnapping, detaining, and torturing gay men in these secret 811 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 1: camps that they were referred to as concentration or re 812 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 1: education camps, very similar to some of the other ones 813 00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: we've we've looked at today. Now. Of course, as soon 814 00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,600 Speaker 1: as these reports begin coming out, it's denied by official sources. 815 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: They suggest there are this is one of the craziest things. 816 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:14,400 Speaker 1: They suggest that there are no homosexuals in the Muslim 817 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: majority region, and it was also stated that it's impossible 818 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 1: to persecute those who are not in the republic. So 819 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:30,359 Speaker 1: there's an official denial by several top level officials that 820 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,840 Speaker 1: gay people within Chechen you even exist, right, Not only 821 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 1: is there not a concentration camp in our government, we 822 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,440 Speaker 1: don't have anyone to put in there because there's no 823 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,840 Speaker 1: such thing as gay people here. The problem with that, 824 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,840 Speaker 1: what's interesting about that is it is completely and demonstrably untrue. 825 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: Well especially I mean now as we've seen here, there 826 00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,920 Speaker 1: have been several videos taken that you can watch on 827 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:04,040 Speaker 1: line right now that show the process of some people 828 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,719 Speaker 1: being abducted and taking or being taken to one of 829 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,920 Speaker 1: these camps. Yeah, there was for a long time a 830 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,400 Speaker 1: secret prison which was the primary site of this hidden 831 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,279 Speaker 1: concentration camp, located in a town called Argoon. It was 832 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: once a military headquarters and then became home to these 833 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: violent interrogations. Witnesses describe being tortured and beaten while being 834 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,799 Speaker 1: ordered to confess their sexual orientation and then give up 835 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,120 Speaker 1: the names and location of more men that they know 836 00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 1: or suspect to be gay when they don't even have 837 00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 1: to give up the names sometimes because usually when these 838 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,400 Speaker 1: people are are abducted, their phones are taken, and then 839 00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:45,879 Speaker 1: their phones are essentially looked through and the authorities there 840 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,160 Speaker 1: searched for others who maybe what they would consider to 841 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,240 Speaker 1: be accomplices. And it doesn't even matter if those folks 842 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,960 Speaker 1: are gay. They will threaten the victims friends and family members. 843 00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:01,760 Speaker 1: Torture includes assault, electric shocks, at times fatal physical violence. 844 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,400 Speaker 1: At least three three people have died as a result 845 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,520 Speaker 1: of this still unacknowledged secret program. At least one was 846 00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,719 Speaker 1: physically beaten to death, which is an ugly, ugly way 847 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,800 Speaker 1: to go sometimes. In fact, the men are ransomed to 848 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,720 Speaker 1: their families and then they are released, only to be 849 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: arrested again, beaten and ransomed again. No one knows exactly 850 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: how long this has been going on. No one knows 851 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,800 Speaker 1: for sure who's behind this purge. We do know that 852 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,320 Speaker 1: the law enforcement in charge of this is making some 853 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,400 Speaker 1: money off of it because of the ransoms, and the Kremlin, 854 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,760 Speaker 1: for its part, denies any knowledge of this event. Yeah, 855 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:41,920 Speaker 1: and at this point I think there are only around 856 00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,080 Speaker 1: a hundred people who have been confirmed to have been 857 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,000 Speaker 1: taken to one of these camps like this again confirmed. 858 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:49,920 Speaker 1: We don't know how long it's been going on, like 859 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,040 Speaker 1: Ben said, or how extensive it is, but there are 860 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,880 Speaker 1: at least that many cases that we know of, and 861 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,240 Speaker 1: as with the earlier cases, the camps in Korea and 862 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:03,200 Speaker 1: the camps and kinda, we will update as we learn more. 863 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,920 Speaker 1: We'd like to. We'd love to have some good news 864 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:12,120 Speaker 1: at some point. I've got some bad news. Yeah, I think, 865 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:13,760 Speaker 1: I think I know where you're going with this. Man. 866 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: The United States also makes this list, not and not 867 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,959 Speaker 1: just you know, with the interment of Japanese Americans during 868 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:26,480 Speaker 1: World War Two. No, we we made this list this year, right, 869 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,360 Speaker 1: It would be hypocritical to ignore America's disturbing past and 870 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,400 Speaker 1: present when it comes to concentration camps. That is correct, 871 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:38,480 Speaker 1: past and present. We okay, so we have what we 872 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:45,920 Speaker 1: have Muslim communities, impossible terrorists communities in Western China. We 873 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:52,280 Speaker 1: have gay men in Czechnia. We have political dissidents alleged 874 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:57,720 Speaker 1: political distance in North Korea. In the US, we have children, yeah, 875 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:03,880 Speaker 1: children being caught up in immigration migration politics, right, families 876 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:09,360 Speaker 1: from other countries, typically Mexico South Central America, traveling illegal 877 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,600 Speaker 1: illegally to the US are apprehended by US authorities when 878 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,600 Speaker 1: they have children with them. They have been, especially in 879 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,800 Speaker 1: recent years, forcibly separated from their parents. They've broken up 880 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,480 Speaker 1: the family, and the fewer in the US is growing 881 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,200 Speaker 1: over this policy. It's called zero tolerance, and the idea 882 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: is that we should prosecute all illegal immigrants and separate 883 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,560 Speaker 1: them from their children as kind of a deterrent, as 884 00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,560 Speaker 1: a warning to make sure other parents don't show up 885 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,680 Speaker 1: with their kids. It's important to say before this um 886 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:49,160 Speaker 1: gets penned entirely on one administration or another, that at 887 00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: times in the past this sort of detainment had occurred 888 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,320 Speaker 1: as well under the Obama administration, Yes, in what I 889 00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,240 Speaker 1: want to say, two thousand fourteen or so, and in 890 00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,120 Speaker 1: this type of has occurred before that as well, in 891 01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:06,040 Speaker 1: fits and starts kind of throughout the history of this country, 892 01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,720 Speaker 1: where where people trying to migrate into the United States 893 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:14,040 Speaker 1: are detained at least temporarily um and usually it's too then, 894 01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,720 Speaker 1: hopefully at least in the eyes of the government to 895 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,840 Speaker 1: turn them back around and send them away somewhere else. 896 01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,520 Speaker 1: And it's we've talked a little bit about it. There's 897 01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: a Stewart detention center where where they do it with 898 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,680 Speaker 1: the adults. But this is the first time, at least 899 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:31,240 Speaker 1: the national public has really been um shown the pictures 900 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:36,439 Speaker 1: of children in this detention camp kind of thing and 901 01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,800 Speaker 1: hearing the stories of mothers and fathers and children being 902 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 1: ripped apart. Yeah. This this is really this series of 903 01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,800 Speaker 1: photographs which you can find easily online. That's really the 904 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,080 Speaker 1: spark that lit the powder keg. These the pictures you 905 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,640 Speaker 1: see will show kids in these sort of fenced in 906 01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:01,080 Speaker 1: cage like enclosures, just sitting there, maybe the mattress or 907 01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,440 Speaker 1: palette on the floor. These kids are being detained not 908 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,920 Speaker 1: because they are guilty of a crime, but as a 909 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 1: strategy to terrify immigrants considering crossing the US Mexico border. 910 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: As of October one, two thousand eighteen, the New York 911 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,400 Speaker 1: Times and CNN estimated that thirteen thousand children have been 912 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,920 Speaker 1: separated from their families. They're not going to school, they 913 01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 1: don't have access to books. Uh, they're not. They're not 914 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: in any kind of structured environment or taking any sorts 915 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,240 Speaker 1: of classes. And there's more than one detention center. They're 916 01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,720 Speaker 1: located across the country. A lot of them are tense cities. 917 01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:43,080 Speaker 1: The administration realizing that people had a moral problem with this, 918 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: whether or not they were, you know, very very anti 919 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,520 Speaker 1: immigration or very very pro immigration. One thing most people 920 01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:54,280 Speaker 1: can get behind is the idea that you shouldn't take 921 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:59,480 Speaker 1: like a seven year old from their mom in a 922 01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:05,120 Speaker 1: foreign country and just put them in a storage unit essentially. 923 01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:10,160 Speaker 1: So yes, freaking infuriating man. So the administration wanted to 924 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:14,080 Speaker 1: soften this term, soften this phenomenon or the perception of it, 925 01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,520 Speaker 1: and they started to use the term tender age shelters 926 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,520 Speaker 1: to describe where the children are held after the kidnapping. Well, 927 01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:22,960 Speaker 1: that's what I mean, that's what it is. It might 928 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Speaker 1: be controversial for some people, uh to hear us call 929 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:30,360 Speaker 1: it kidnapping, but it is kidnapping. Yeah, And there's something 930 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,800 Speaker 1: in common with these detention centers. A lot of the 931 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:37,320 Speaker 1: times it's just an area or a building or just 932 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,880 Speaker 1: a piece of land that has not been used for 933 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 1: a while. And it's usually best for a lot of these, 934 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,600 Speaker 1: no matter which country you're in, if you can find 935 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 1: a large, somewhat disused building, because you don't need much 936 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,080 Speaker 1: besides walls. In these cases, you don't even need walls. 937 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,640 Speaker 1: You're just you're gonna put tents on some land, um 938 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,320 Speaker 1: you you it looks like a prison again. We're we're 939 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,320 Speaker 1: talking just chain link fences, barbed wire, um. And there's 940 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,880 Speaker 1: one in Tornado, Texas that's home to one of the 941 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:12,280 Speaker 1: largest tent camps. And in this place it was like designed, 942 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,880 Speaker 1: I guess, to have four hundred and fifty miners kept there. 943 01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,880 Speaker 1: But in the future the United States authorities planned to 944 01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,200 Speaker 1: have at least up to thirty eight hundred children detained 945 01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,520 Speaker 1: there at some point. Right, And obviously these children have 946 01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,840 Speaker 1: no recourse to legal action, even if they were mature 947 01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: enough to attempt to engage it. Uh, there's no way 948 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,520 Speaker 1: for them to see their parents, the relatives, siblings. They 949 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,840 Speaker 1: have no idea, a very little idea what's happening to 950 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 1: them and why, because again, these are children. And there 951 01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:48,160 Speaker 1: are people who have said that this is the kids 952 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,320 Speaker 1: are not being hurts and they're not being deprived of 953 01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:56,160 Speaker 1: human rights, but that it's really not the US is 954 01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:58,840 Speaker 1: fault for doing this. It's the parents fault for putting 955 01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,800 Speaker 1: their kids in that situation. And then other people were 956 01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,360 Speaker 1: opponents of that say that that is at best a 957 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,640 Speaker 1: disingenuous argument and on a moral level. At worst, it's 958 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,240 Speaker 1: it's incredibly cowardly and misleading. Well and what the absolute worst, 959 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,800 Speaker 1: it's not true at all, because we have seen allegations 960 01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:20,160 Speaker 1: of abuse at these centers. That's true. That's true, and 961 01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:23,360 Speaker 1: we've seen a precedent for this in US history. In 962 01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,240 Speaker 1: the Chicago Tribune, Guarants Burke and Martha Mendoza point out 963 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,440 Speaker 1: that decades after the nation's child welfare system ended the 964 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,320 Speaker 1: use of orphanages over concerns about the lasting trauma orphanages 965 01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,040 Speaker 1: have to children or have on children, the administration is 966 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,640 Speaker 1: starting up new institutions to hold Central American toddlers that 967 01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,600 Speaker 1: the government separated from their parents. So they're kind of 968 01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:51,320 Speaker 1: they're like hopefully temporary orphanages. And Immigrations and Customs enforcement 969 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:55,320 Speaker 1: prevents journalists from reporting on the detained immigrants, but we 970 01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,680 Speaker 1: do know that several workers from the centers, especially the 971 01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,760 Speaker 1: centers for miners, have charge with sexual abuse. We can 972 01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,280 Speaker 1: only imagine what happens in the absence of a free 973 01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:11,360 Speaker 1: press looking at this, because, as we know, secrecy breeds 974 01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,000 Speaker 1: these rumors, and it's a black box. A lot of 975 01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,480 Speaker 1: people have no idea what's going in there. Ice has 976 01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:21,480 Speaker 1: denied allegations of abuse, and again members of the administration 977 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:24,760 Speaker 1: have described this as more like a summer camp. Yeah, 978 01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,040 Speaker 1: we've also seen people in the media talking about how 979 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:31,720 Speaker 1: it's a summer camp. Um, which is again like brutal 980 01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,240 Speaker 1: to hear, especially if you have a kid and you 981 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,400 Speaker 1: imagine this happening to you. Um, Okay, I won't get 982 01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,200 Speaker 1: into it too much. It's just it's brutal, no matter 983 01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,600 Speaker 1: why it's happening, and it's especially brutal to know that 984 01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,880 Speaker 1: right now while we're recording this on Halloween, there are 985 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,240 Speaker 1: a ton of kids still detained in these places, thirteen thousand. 986 01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,760 Speaker 1: When you say kids were not necessarily talking about fourteen 987 01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,040 Speaker 1: year old. Some of these children are under five years old. 988 01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,640 Speaker 1: Where the hell are their parents going by? And I 989 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:05,919 Speaker 1: know this, I know this can be such a hot 990 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:08,680 Speaker 1: button issue, but looking at the facts, going by the 991 01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:13,560 Speaker 1: definition of a concentration camp, this is one it is 992 01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,440 Speaker 1: in this country. It is built not to capture people 993 01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,640 Speaker 1: based on their ethnicity, nor their religious leanings, nor their 994 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,760 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. It is built to imprison children. Yes, it 995 01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:29,520 Speaker 1: is not comparable to something out of the Holocaust, and 996 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,640 Speaker 1: I think that is unfair to be categorized in that way. 997 01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,800 Speaker 1: But it is atrocious in its own right. And the 998 01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,920 Speaker 1: question is what is the what what is the better solution? Right? 999 01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,240 Speaker 1: Is it to just house these If if people are 1000 01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,840 Speaker 1: being detained and they're applying for asylum or there, you know, right, 1001 01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:48,840 Speaker 1: and going to be deported or sent back to their 1002 01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:53,959 Speaker 1: home country, why separate the family? Fear should is it? 1003 01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:56,560 Speaker 1: Is it? Um? A logistics case? I don't know. We 1004 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: want to hear what you think. Is it psychological torture 1005 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:02,360 Speaker 1: the way you're mentioning that, Yeah, I mean I think 1006 01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,600 Speaker 1: that's the only reason to do it, to to try 1007 01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:08,960 Speaker 1: and prevent other families from attempting to get in. So 1008 01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,880 Speaker 1: then is it a deterrent? Yeah? This, this brings us to, 1009 01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,880 Speaker 1: This brings us to maybe not a conclusion in the story, 1010 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:20,360 Speaker 1: because all four of these modern concentration camps are around 1011 01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,760 Speaker 1: and active today. Um, but it does bring us to 1012 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,280 Speaker 1: a pause and the pause for questions. While it is 1013 01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,960 Speaker 1: perhaps comforting to imagine that the world in which we 1014 01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,280 Speaker 1: live has progressed beyond the days of pilgrims and genocide 1015 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:37,040 Speaker 1: and brutal acts of detainment, even a cursory look shows 1016 01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,720 Speaker 1: that this is not the case. People are still being 1017 01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:44,440 Speaker 1: imprisoned for their ethnic identity, religious, political beliefs, or sexual orientation, 1018 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,040 Speaker 1: arguably the actions of their parents, which they had a 1019 01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:51,720 Speaker 1: little to know control over, And we have to ask 1020 01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,360 Speaker 1: ourselves what else is out there? These are not the 1021 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,959 Speaker 1: only stories of these kinds of camps. There are refugee 1022 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:04,680 Speaker 1: camps where people have been for their ethnicity forced into um. 1023 01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:10,360 Speaker 1: It's very very difficult situations with very little chance of 1024 01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,560 Speaker 1: getting back to a normal life. And we didn't even 1025 01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,120 Speaker 1: talk about some of the Rohinga refugee cancel, some of 1026 01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,680 Speaker 1: those things that are happening now out in Myanmar, Ya 1027 01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:24,120 Speaker 1: or Burma. How will future historians judge our civilization? We 1028 01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:26,479 Speaker 1: don't know. We want to hear what your take is. 1029 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,960 Speaker 1: But when thing's for sure, in countries across the planet, 1030 01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:32,479 Speaker 1: governments are secretly hoarding and torturing people for things the 1031 01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:35,559 Speaker 1: rest of the world doesn't consider a crime. And this 1032 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,800 Speaker 1: is quite literally the stuff they don't want you to know. 1033 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:46,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, episode, Hey, it's okay, it's okay, um, So 1034 01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,120 Speaker 1: write to us, find us on social media where we 1035 01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:52,599 Speaker 1: are conspiracy stuff on most of the places on Instagram, 1036 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,800 Speaker 1: or conspiracy stuff show you can you can leave us 1037 01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,519 Speaker 1: a voice message and call us. We are one eight 1038 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,960 Speaker 1: three three s T d W y t K. Just 1039 01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,320 Speaker 1: call that call that number, listen to Ben for a 1040 01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:08,000 Speaker 1: second till he's got a cool message there, and then 1041 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:09,960 Speaker 1: leave a message and then it might get on the air. 1042 01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:11,880 Speaker 1: If you don't want to do any of that stuff, 1043 01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,479 Speaker 1: just send us a good old fashioned email. We are 1044 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:37,200 Speaker 1: conspiracy at how stuff works dot com.