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Speaker 3: Fifteen protesters in Minnesota have been charged federally for their

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Speaker 3: role in what the Feds are saying is obstructing I

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Speaker 3: guess the lawful carrying out of official immigration duties. Here

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Speaker 3: is Federal Prosecutor Daniel Rosen's that right.

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Speaker 4: Last year, President Trump issued National Security Presidential Memorandum seven,

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Speaker 4: which directed the Department of Justice to prioritize politically motivated violence.

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Speaker 4: To accomplish that mission, the Deputy Attorney General stood up

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Speaker 4: Joint Task Force Vanguard to enforce a national security strategy

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Speaker 4: to investigate prosecute and disrupt those who engage in political

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Speaker 4: violence and intimidation. Today, a federal indictment was unsealed, charging

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Speaker 4: fifteen defendants with conspiracy to impede or injure federal officers

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Speaker 4: and other charges related to efforts of too Minneapolis based

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Speaker 4: ANTIFA groups that violently opposed the enforcement of federal law

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Speaker 4: in our state. The defendants are members and associates of

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Speaker 4: Direct Action Minnesota.

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Speaker 3: And we have footage of one of the one of

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Speaker 3: the people getting arrested. Here's D one. This is outside

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Speaker 3: somebody's home in Minnesota, pulling out a well guy with

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Speaker 3: a beard from a signal chat who's like, doing you know,

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Speaker 3: help you know, organizing against the immigration crackdown.

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Speaker 5: This is Isaac Aumond's sound in Minnesota.

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Speaker 3: This this comes after we could put up D five.

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Speaker 3: This comes after three protesters in Washington State were found

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Speaker 3: We're found guilty of conspiracy to protest basically related to

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Speaker 3: protests against immigration facility out in Washington State. UH and

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Speaker 3: also comes after the eight eight federal indictments were handed

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Speaker 3: down in Michigan against encampment protesters there. So that's not immigration,

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Speaker 3: that's those are the encampment approaches. We covered those on

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Speaker 3: on Friday. So this as as you know, Kenklippenstein has

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Speaker 3: been very heavily focused on np s M seven, the

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Speaker 3: news of it, right, which is this security memo, that

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Speaker 3: National Security Presidential Memo seven, which the subject of it

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Speaker 3: is straightforward countering domestic terrorism and organized political violence, and

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Speaker 3: it directed federal prosecutors to try to roll up left

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Speaker 3: wing groups more or less that are that are organizing

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Speaker 3: these protests. So tell us about the tell us about

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Speaker 3: the indictment, because you were telling me before we started

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Speaker 3: that you think that they've got they actually do have

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Speaker 3: a case here against some of these protesters.

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Speaker 6: I think they have a case against some of them.

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Speaker 6: And so just to be very clear, this is going

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Speaker 6: to be overly broad. I don't doubt that one second

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Speaker 6: is not in any way an endorsement of the Administration's

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Speaker 6: probably dragnet that's going to catch up people that we're

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Speaker 6: not doing actually illegal activity. If you read the indictment

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Speaker 6: is an absolutely wild ride. It's like one hundred pages long,

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Speaker 6: and I pulled a couple of pieces of it. But

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Speaker 6: what you do see is again it's actually this is

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Speaker 6: we've heard this trott it out, but eighteen USC one

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Speaker 6: eleven is what's being invoked here. NSPM seven is a

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Speaker 6: big directive that is wildly unconstitutional. It is a total

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Speaker 6: threat to free speech. There's absolutely no question about it.

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Speaker 6: The way that is written is so so broad as

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Speaker 6: to direct federal officials to investigate people who are engaged

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Speaker 6: in perfectly constitutional activity. Eighteen USC one eleven punishes anyone

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Speaker 6: who quote this is according to the Justice Department's website

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Speaker 6: forcibly assaults, resists, and opposes, impedes, intimidates, or interferes with

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Speaker 6: any person who is a federal officer in the course

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Speaker 6: of their duties. And so that's assaults, resists, opposing, It

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Speaker 6: probably does go back, opposes, impedes, intimidates, or interferes with

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Speaker 6: any person that is doing federal duties. So this could

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Speaker 6: easily be used against anti abortion protesters who are trying

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Speaker 6: to get in the way, for example, of federal agents

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Speaker 6: who are trying to clear them from blocking access to

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Speaker 6: an abortion clinic for example. But if you look in

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Speaker 6: this indictment, there are places where you clearly see, I mean,

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Speaker 6: it's infiltrated. Whatever this network was, it was an anarchist

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Speaker 6: network basically in Minneapolis. Yeah, signal group, but also people

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Speaker 6: who are identifying themselves as anarchist activists. It's clearly infiltrated

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Speaker 6: by federal informants because they have the goods. They clearly

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Speaker 6: have what looks like recordings from private meetings. They have

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Speaker 6: excerpts from signal chats. Here's I'll just go through a

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Speaker 6: couple of things that stood out to me from the indictment.

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Speaker 6: Let's start from the first one. So one point one

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Speaker 6: oh six in the indictment says on or about February fifteenth,

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Speaker 6: at approximately three pm, Robinett and others attended a meeting

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Speaker 6: held at the United Labor Center building in Minneapolis and

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Speaker 6: sponsored by TCDA, BC towc Ray, Rainbolt Memorial Shooting Club,

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Speaker 6: Socialist Alternative and other organizations. Robinett wore a Rainbolt hat

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Speaker 6: and served on the special security team for the event.

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Speaker 6: The group discussed medical firearms and quote hard security training.

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Speaker 6: Participants began planning in March one directive at the Whipple Building.

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Speaker 6: It's not proposed that was the person you just saw

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Speaker 6: orizing another blockade at.

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Speaker 5: The east entest of the Whipple Building.

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Speaker 6: So they're charged for conspiracy to impeter, obstruct, And I

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Speaker 6: think what you're seeing here is a private meeting where

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Speaker 6: they are clearly conspiring to obstruct with a blockade. And again,

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Speaker 6: this is the indictment, So it's entirely possible that more

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Speaker 6: evidence comes out that they were not trying.

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Speaker 5: To blockade federal officers.

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Speaker 6: But it looks like they would probably even admit at

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Speaker 6: this point that they were intentionally blockading federal officers from

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Speaker 6: being able to conduct their duties. This is from a

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Speaker 6: signal chat on February seventeenth. Do you have Sant again

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Speaker 6: sayinge who else wants to be added to the three

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Speaker 6: to one whipple action planning chat? I know they're people

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Speaker 6: who didn't get added, yet another guy says, please add me,

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Speaker 6: and then they are saying melt the ICE organizers are

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Speaker 6: asking us to do the same thing we did on

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Speaker 6: twenty third Street block men ahaha, while their march takes

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Speaker 6: the street on the other side by sixty two e

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Speaker 6: so soft blockade with shields. One of them says, I say,

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Speaker 6: if we can figure it out, we go further than

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Speaker 6: just that. That is somebody named mister reck Now Sant

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Speaker 6: posed on February seventeenth, according to the indictment, posted a

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Speaker 6: screenshot of a map showing the mouth the ICE organizations

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Speaker 6: proposed march route for the action against the Whipple Building.

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Speaker 6: So again, like what you're seeing in this, here's Morgan explaining, quote,

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Speaker 6: there's an inherent militancy to this project. Quote, this is

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Speaker 6: something that comes with the explicit aim of stopping and

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Speaker 6: combating an armed federal agent trying to violently abduct your neighbor.

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Speaker 6: That's a quote that is basically a confession to this crime.

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Speaker 6: If we want to say that shouldn't be illegal, then

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Speaker 6: you have to change the law. But if this is

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Speaker 6: meant to be civil disobedience, I would say even that

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Speaker 6: is not what you see in this indictment. From what

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Speaker 6: appeared to be direct quotes, they're basically saying intentionally that

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Speaker 6: this should not be civil disobedience.

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Speaker 5: That they're questioning.

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Speaker 6: They're questioning the commitment of people who believe in civil

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Speaker 6: disobedience in some of these chats, which again own it.

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Speaker 6: If that's what you believe, a lot of people believe

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Speaker 6: that it goes back to like Phenahen, a lot of

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Speaker 6: people believe that you can't accomplish what you want to

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Speaker 6: accomplish with civil disobedience. And so if that's the case,

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Speaker 6: I'm not going to say that this is a an

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Speaker 6: unjust prosecution if you're intentionally trying to be engaged in

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Speaker 6: non civil disobedience. So Kennedy, according to this, says he's

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Speaker 6: a quote revolutionary anarchist. The anarchist movement will achieve the

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Speaker 6: ability to have fluid communication between independent groups without state

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Speaker 6: or any centralized leadership. I believe that's exactly what we're

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Speaker 6: seeing in Minneapolis. So again, all this is to say,

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Speaker 6: there's a debate about blocking, whether that should be legal

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Speaker 6: or not, what actually constitutes imposing, But there were also

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Speaker 6: a lot of or obstruction. There also were a lot

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Speaker 6: of there was a lot of civil disobedience in Minneapolis,

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Speaker 6: whether it was Will Stancil following around the cops and

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Speaker 6: honking the horn. That's not illegal, that should not be illegal.

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Speaker 6: It isn't illegal. And there were a lot of people

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Speaker 6: who were training people in genuine civil disobedience to be

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Speaker 6: allowed make noise, try to alert people. That's different than

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Speaker 6: what we're seeing in this indictment. Again, we haven't heard

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Speaker 6: from the defendants, so this can change, which it does

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Speaker 6: look like this is a pretty serious case against some

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Speaker 6: of them who are openly admitting in the chats and

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Speaker 6: in these private meetings with verbatim quotes, meaning they likely

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Speaker 6: have recordings to saying, Hey, we're going to conspire. What

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Speaker 6: we're doing right now is organizing two block federal officers

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Speaker 6: from making arrests.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in some of the cases, so they'll have in

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Speaker 3: one case they have them kind of talking about getting

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Speaker 3: a truck and having the truck kind of block the road,

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Speaker 3: and they'll say, like, we're going to get arrested for this.

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Speaker 3: So that like that's the kind of level of civil disobedience.

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Speaker 3: That it is civil disobedience and you're you know, committing

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Speaker 3: to engage in it, which then comes with consequences in

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Speaker 3: a free society when you're committing civil disobedience, though it's

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Speaker 3: not it's generally not met with an attempt to put

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Speaker 3: you in jail for life, in prison for life or

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Speaker 3: for twenty or thirty years or whatever I want.

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Speaker 5: Dispute Actually keep talking, have to take a drink.

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Speaker 3: So while it is true that there was some civil

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Speaker 3: disobedience going on here, the reaction here is not what

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Speaker 3: we expect from kind of a free society. And the

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Speaker 3: legal argument, the legal counter argument that I would make

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Speaker 3: to say, like, oh well, look, it's on the books

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Speaker 3: that says, you know, you can't intimidate a federal officer

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Speaker 3: vers all. It's like that's unconstitutional, Like get like, come on,

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Speaker 3: grow up. In the indictment it says you caused emotional

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Speaker 3: distress to the ICE agents, Like that's not a crime. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: sorry that you're yes, causing emotional distress. I'm sure they'd

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Speaker 3: love to arrest Will Stancil. But the counter argument would be,

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Speaker 3: prove that you are lawfully carrying out your duties, because

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Speaker 3: what we see as a free people is a bunch

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Speaker 3: of goons going around and snatching brown people off the

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Speaker 3: street without asking them questions, grabbing them and then putting

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Speaker 3: them in vans and driving off and then finding out

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Speaker 3: later whether or not they are citizens, whether or not

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Speaker 3: they're legal residents, whether they have asylum cases that are processing,

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Speaker 3: or whether they're here completely illegally. They are grabbing first

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Speaker 3: and then and then often then just dumping them somewhere

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Speaker 3: else when they find out that they are here legally,

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Speaker 3: And so that would be the counter argument, say, if

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Speaker 3: you really are carrying out lawful duties, you have to

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Speaker 3: actually prove that. You have to demonstrate that to us

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Speaker 3: because otherwise, we are a free citizenry that is here

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Speaker 3: to support the law and the laws. You cannot snatch

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Speaker 3: people off the street. You guys are the criminals.

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Speaker 5: And if the law is that people should have.

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Speaker 6: Unrestricted or unphysically blocked access to abortion clinics, then the

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Speaker 6: law is that the federal officers should be able to

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Speaker 6: move people away from the abortion clinics with having interference

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Speaker 6: from the activists who will physically block. And so I

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Speaker 6: would just say people who are skeptical of this, because

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Speaker 6: what I was going to say before I started coughing

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Speaker 6: was I don't dispute that there will be over prosecutions here.

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Speaker 6: I think that and maybe even overly punitive sentencings. I'm

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Speaker 6: not going to dispute that. I don't doubt that might

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Speaker 6: happen at all. What I'm saying is that some of

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Speaker 6: our I was going to say friends, I don't know

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Speaker 6: that I have a lot of friends whould make those argument.

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Speaker 5: But you probably do.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's a serious thing, both on the hardcore

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Speaker 6: left and on the hardcore right. Some people believe that

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Speaker 6: violence is the only, or is at a certain point

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Speaker 6: the last resort, and that we've reached that point of

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Speaker 6: last resort, whether it's.

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Speaker 5: With ice or some people that it's different things.

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Speaker 6: And I'm just saying, then, own that if that's what

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Speaker 6: you're trying to do, If you're trying to use physical

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Speaker 6: blockades to interfere with federal officers, that's a violation of

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Speaker 6: federal law.

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Speaker 7: Own it.

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Speaker 6: And it's not necessarily a crazy prosecution of you if

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Speaker 6: you're openly conspiring to break federal law.

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Speaker 3: And what I would say is to that is the

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Speaker 3: same thing I'd say. We can put this in a second.

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Speaker 3: If somebody puts a truck and on the street and

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Speaker 3: blocks it and they're doing that as an active civil disobedience,

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Speaker 3: then arrest that person for that act. This where you

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Speaker 3: put these things in the indictment, but you don't ever

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Speaker 3: prove them, and instead you fluff up some giant conspiracy

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Speaker 3: involving lots of other people. That's not how it's supposed

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Speaker 3: to be done. If we can put up D six,

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Speaker 3: so the the Palestinian protest, the pro Palestine protesters are

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Speaker 3: pleading not guilty to these eight charges, then if you

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Speaker 3: read through the indictment, this is this is well, this

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Speaker 3: isn't Yeah, this is in Michigan, but this particular person

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Speaker 3: it's from it's from Milwaukee. Most of them are from Michigan.

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Speaker 3: I think this person actually is a Yes, this person

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Speaker 3: is a cancer researcher who is doing kind of postgrad

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Speaker 3: research at the University of Michigan and wanted to wanted

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Speaker 3: to try to stop University of Michigan complicity and the genocide.

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Speaker 3: If you read the indictment, there's some bad things, like

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Speaker 3: they threw some noxious chemicals into somebody's house or something.

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Speaker 3: But if you notice, they never try to prove that.

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Speaker 3: They never give any details of it, and they're not

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Speaker 3: even apparently proposing to try to prove it in court.

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Speaker 3: They're just saying, oh, bad things happened here. These people

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Speaker 3: opposed the genocide and wanted to put pressure on the

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Speaker 3: University of Michigan border regions. And so we're then going

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Speaker 3: to link these two things, yes, without proving or charging

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Speaker 3: this try to get a conviction over here on a

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Speaker 3: giant conspiracy. They're doing a similar thing in some cases

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Speaker 3: with the Minnesota case, where it's like, if you can

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Speaker 3: prove this thing they committed this crime, then charge that crime.

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Speaker 3: If you can't, then you do this whole giant Oh,

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Speaker 3: Antifa and like they support revolution and yeah, like shut up,

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Speaker 3: like you're allowed to support revolution, like that's this is America.

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Speaker 6: And we've seen this with students in particular. I mean

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Speaker 6: Ma mu Khalil, different case apples and oranges, but an

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Speaker 6: example of something similar where they're saying, oh.

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Speaker 5: Bad stuff is happening on this campus. This guy was

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Speaker 5: involved in leadership.

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Speaker 6: Therefore, we are pinning everything that everybody did on you.

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Speaker 6: And the tether is going to be some Instagram post.

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Speaker 5: But that's it. That's that's how we're connecting you.

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Speaker 3: This some Instagram posts from some group that you used

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Speaker 3: to be involved with or something. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: And this, by the way, is what is frustrating because

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Speaker 6: we covered this a lot at the time. The first

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Speaker 6: Trump administration, UH actually radicalized a lot of people on

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Speaker 6: the right against overbroad uses of the intelligence agencies, especially domestically.

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Speaker 6: The Biden administration radicalized a lot of people against on

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Speaker 6: the right against not even radicalized, but sort of was

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Speaker 6: eye opening to a lot of people against the FBI

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Speaker 6: and the CIA, how they were using a using their

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Speaker 6: powers domestically, how they were infiltrating groups with informants and

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Speaker 6: all of that. And there was a big movement against

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Speaker 6: that right now. You see some people to this day

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Speaker 6: fighting against seven oh two reauthorization literally right now that's happening.

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Speaker 6: And yes, there's clearly like the NSPM seven on its face,

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Speaker 6: if the Biden administration had put something like that out

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Speaker 6: and you were swapping Antifa for like trad Catholic, Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 6: people would be furious about it.

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Speaker 5: So yes, there's something very frustrating about that too.

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Speaker 3: And especially as Steven Miller, we can put D seven

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Speaker 3: real quickly, big scoop from Jonathan Swan and Maggie Harman

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Speaker 3: that isn't getting enough attention that Miller pushed really hard

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Speaker 3: to suspend the Habeas corpus, which is the fundamental right

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Speaker 3: that all people have in the United States to challenge

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Speaker 3: their detention as unlawful. So if you don't have that,

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Speaker 3: if you can't challenge your detention, then you can just

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Speaker 3: be grabbed and you have no recourse to get out. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: the nobody in the Epstein files has found themselves on

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Speaker 3: the business end of any of these prosecutions, while they

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Speaker 3: seem to have like an enormous amount of creativity when

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Speaker 3: it comes to, you know, rounding up, rounding up these folks.

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Speaker 3: But let's let's get to Epstein.

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Speaker 5: Let's do it.

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Speaker 6: Just as The New York Times dropped a major investigation

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Speaker 6: into the final days of Jeffrey Epstein, questioning some of

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Speaker 6: the let's say, quote unquote conspiratorial narratives about how Epstein's

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Speaker 6: life appears to have ended, Vice President J. D. Vance

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Speaker 6: went on the View where he got pressed by the

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Speaker 6: hosts on whether he was an Epstein conspiracy theorist. What

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Speaker 6: happened with Epstein, the President's relationship with Epstein.

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Speaker 5: Let's start here with E one.

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Speaker 8: By the way again, Sorry, Joy, do you have to

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Speaker 8: defend my boss? I know you guys don't always appreciate this,

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Speaker 8: but you know, one of the things you see in

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Speaker 8: the Epstein emails is that Jeffrey Epstein hated Donald Trump

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Speaker 8: and that Donald Trump literally reported Jeffrey Epstein to the police.

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Speaker 3: That's one of the things that came out of the.

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Speaker 9: Best friends for about a decade. Remember, he signed that

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Speaker 9: Transparency Act under duress when some Republican women Congress, women

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Speaker 9: like Lauren Bolbert, like Marjorie Taylor Green did not give

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Speaker 9: in to his pressure of not signing me. He brought

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Speaker 9: Lauren Bolbert into the situation room to pressure her into

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Speaker 9: caving on not voting for that bill.

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Speaker 3: So let me respond to that. So true, let me

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Speaker 3: respond to that.

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Speaker 8: So number one is yes, Donald Trump, and he said this,

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Speaker 8: he knew Jeffrey Epstein back in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 3: He also threw Jeffrey.

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Speaker 8: Epstein out of his club when he found out it

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Speaker 8: was a creep and reported him to the police. That's

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Speaker 8: something that the media often misses when it reports the story.

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Speaker 8: They tell the fact that they knew each other in

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Speaker 8: the eighties, which the President himself admits. They ignore the

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Speaker 8: fact that he knarcked on him to the police and

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Speaker 8: led ultimately to Jeffrey Epstein's downfall. To that point, Anna,

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Speaker 8: you know the Republican Party, Well, it's one of the

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Speaker 8: things that led to.

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Speaker 3: Law enforcement investigation. But on the point that.

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Speaker 9: Hemail was allegedly over a real estate deal that they

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Speaker 9: hadn't got into a fight over.

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Speaker 8: But the email says, the email says.

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Speaker 5: Actually he know each other. Let's just be truthful and

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Speaker 5: transparent here. They didn't just know each other.

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Speaker 8: Incredibly, he reported him to the police. That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 8: That is objective, That is objectively true. But animated, but

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Speaker 8: animated animated.

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Speaker 3: Another point that I think I would be if I

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Speaker 3: may be animated.

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Speaker 8: A very important point this question about did Donald Trump

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Speaker 8: release these files only under duress from Republicans? And Anna,

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Speaker 8: you know the Republican Party probably better than I do.

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Speaker 8: The idea that Donald Trump runs around afraid of Republican

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Speaker 8: congressmen as opposed to the other way around is kind

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Speaker 8: of crazy. But because the Republicans control the House and

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Speaker 8: the Senate, particularly the Senate, you need the Republican sign off.

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Speaker 8: What the President did is, look, I will I will

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Speaker 8: say this again. I was in there in the meetings.

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Speaker 8: He was very frustrated that the Democrats were making this

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Speaker 8: about him when he's like, look, I threw the guy

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Speaker 8: out of my club. I am the guy who reported

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Speaker 8: unto the police, or one of the people who reported

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Speaker 8: into the police. The President was frustrated about that, absolutely,

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Speaker 8: but he eventually came to say, you know what, let's

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Speaker 8: just get everything out there. Let's have this out in

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Speaker 8: the public. And he he actually called the Senders.

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Speaker 3: I was there.

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Speaker 8: He called the Senders and said, you know what, passed

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Speaker 8: this bill, I'll sign it.

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Speaker 3: And that was it.

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Speaker 6: Just a couple of hours later, he told Megan Kelly

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Speaker 6: that he believed this big New York Times story. Jonathan

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Speaker 6: Swan Maggie Haberman about the situation room conversation regarding the

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Speaker 6: Trump administration's plans for disclosure in the Epstein case. He

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Speaker 6: said that there were certain things in there that quote

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Speaker 6: legitimately made me worried that people were taping and in

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Speaker 6: the situation room, which is a felony. He said that

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Speaker 6: story was very bizarre. It was sort of a nothing

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Speaker 6: of a story in the sense that everybody.

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Speaker 5: Started to all these details. But the fact that.

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Speaker 6: Somebody had taped, so that seems to be some confirmation

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Speaker 6: from Jade Vance that it was tape drain.

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Speaker 3: Or certainly that it's all true. That's also the interesting

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Speaker 3: If there was any doubt as to whether or not

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Speaker 3: what was reported by Swann and Haberman there is accurate,

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Speaker 3: it's put to bed by Vance saying that it basically

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Speaker 3: matches verbatim his recollection of the of the meeting, which

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Speaker 3: means that they used the situation room to devise a

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Speaker 3: scheme to cover up the Epstein files.

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Speaker 6: Nobody is talking enough about the fact that this was

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Speaker 6: in the situation room. First of all, Now do I

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Speaker 6: know how the Trump administration uses the situation room. No,

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Speaker 6: but you're not supposed to be able to bring phones

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Speaker 6: or recording devices in there. And actually, what it sounds

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Speaker 6: to me is like they were discussing a story with

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Speaker 6: serious national security implications for the drop ste reporting.

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Speaker 7: In the end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently apparently there is national security implications to it.

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Speaker 6: I don't think you're taking political meetings normally, not the

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Speaker 6: Trump administration, not exactly normal. But I think it's pretty

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Speaker 6: odd to be taking a meeting about political strategy in

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Speaker 6: the situation room.

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Speaker 3: But didn't say Cash Hotel and Bongino, or at least

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Speaker 3: Cash Hotel joined by speakerphones. Yes, I wonder who I mean.

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Speaker 3: I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but go on, if

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Speaker 3: somebody is going to tape it, it's the dude on

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Speaker 3: the speakerphone.

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Speaker 5: Or presumably they were in a skiff. I don't know,

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Speaker 5: maybe they weren't.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, he's at the club.

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Speaker 5: He's at the club.

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Speaker 3: There was the guy with the club the poodle and

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Speaker 3: recorded it. Yeah, so maybe he was in an uber.

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Speaker 5: He could have been.

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Speaker 6: The New York Times dropped a major story about questions

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Speaker 6: into Epstein's death and this happened, I think just within

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Speaker 6: twenty four hours of vance going on this tour and

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Speaker 6: answering epstein questions.

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Speaker 5: And it's a.

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Speaker 6: Very very long story, many new interviews, many new details

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Speaker 6: in it. But a couple of the nutgrafts here I'll

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Speaker 6: just read from they say. Our reporting establishes that Epstein

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Speaker 6: showed a clear pattern of behavior in the weeks before

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Speaker 6: his death, suggesting an intent to kill himself. The apparent

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Speaker 6: suicide note memorialized Epstein's despair and desired to quote say

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Speaker 6: goodbye on his own terms. That's referring to the suicide

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Speaker 6: note that Tartaglioni, his once cell mate, discovered, gave to

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Speaker 6: his lawyers and talks about a bit in the story,

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Speaker 6: as well other writings from his final days. The Times

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Speaker 6: Continues presented a picture of a fraying mental state that

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Speaker 6: sharply contrasted with the upbeat picture he presented to jail psychologists,

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Speaker 6: including another note in when he hinted at ending his life.

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Speaker 6: In addition to this, we were told by a former

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Speaker 6: cellmate that Epstein made more than one previously unreported attempt

436
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 6: to craft a noose, and we located a former inmate

437
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 6: never before interviewed who was housed in a neighboring cell

438
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 6: at the time of Epstein's death and whose accounts circumstantially

439
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 6: supported the conclusion that Epstein died by hanging himself. This

440
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 6: cellmate says he heard Epstein tearing what sounded like sheets.

441
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 5: He wouldn't have known that, but that's what he says.

442
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 6: Consulting with independent pathologists, we determined that a likely error

443
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 6: in catallying evidence from his cell created the appearance of

444
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 6: mysteries regarding his injuries that were in fact potentially explained

445
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 6: by other evidence from the scene that was.

446
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 5: Overlooked at the time.

447
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 6: They say what Michael Bowden, who was hired by Epstein's

448
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 6: brother to observe the autopsy, said about some breaking around

449
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 6: the neck area could have been because of the way

450
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 6: that he attempted to hang himself with a news connected

451
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 6: to the bed. So Ryan, this is going to be

452
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 6: used as a way to undercut quote unquote conspiracy theorist.

453
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 6: It's sort of always been true that Epstein could have

454
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 6: legitimately killed himself, and a lot of this other stuff

455
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 6: drop Side has reported from both the leaked emails and

456
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 6: the released emails is quite obviously still accurate and true

457
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 6: some of the.

458
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 5: Foreign dealings and the like that you've dug really deeply into.

459
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 6: At the same time, also, there are coincidences in this

460
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 6: New York Times story that kind of get some explanations.

461
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 6: You know, what was going on with the guards, Why

462
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 6: did the guards not do the rounds? Why did they

463
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 6: appear to sleep? That you get some explanation for. But

464
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 6: you don't have to buy those explanations because it's still

465
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 6: very weird. Yes, it's true that they had cameras down

466
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 6: for a long time.

467
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 5: Still doesn't change.

468
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 6: The fact that they had a camera precisely missing that

469
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 6: el Tier Epstein access point to his cell.

470
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 5: It still doesn't change the.

471
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 6: Fact that the guards were sleeping on the jobs that

472
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 6: they incorrectly relied on forms. So none of that stuff changes,

473
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 6: and I'm willing to buy some of the story actually,

474
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 6: but there's still some big questions.

475
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 3: Right, And they've got interviews with Nicholas Tartaglioni, the guy

476
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 3: the cop accused of convicted of murdering four people, strangling

477
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: one of them who after they determined that Epstein was

478
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: a suicide risk, they made him his seal made a

479
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 3: lot of people have said that they believe that he's

480
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 3: the one that was then contracted basically to kill him.

481
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: He tells The New York Times that when he came

482
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: back from one of his hearings, he said, how do

483
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: he make a noose? He says, he caught him. We

484
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 3: caught him with a news under his mattress ones and

485
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 3: told jail guards, who laughed it off. Time says they

486
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 3: can find no evidence of him telling that to jail guards.

487
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 3: The counter argument is that Epstein had always wiggled out

488
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 3: of everything that he His life was a series of

489
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: obstacles that he overcame, and that they it's not obvious

490
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 3: that they hadn't much new in the way of criminal activity,

491
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 3: and he had a non prosecution agreement in place, so

492
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 3: he had a legal ap plausible legal path towards freedom.

493
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 3: Now it had taken him a long time to reconstruct

494
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 3: his social standing after the first time in prison. Now

495
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: he was facing global cancelation plus this and so yeah,

496
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: on the other so, the counter counter argument is that

497
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 3: on the other side of this, even if he got free,

498
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 3: he'd have his money, but he wouldn't have what he

499
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: really craved, which was being the guy at the middle

500
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 3: of the party. And so he could, you know, he

501
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 3: could escape to France or whatever and continue to do

502
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 3: like sex crimes with like sixteen year olds.

503
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, and some of the evidence of that's not.

504
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 3: Really but he can't do with Bill Clinton anymore.

505
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 6: Some of the evidence that the time story brings out

506
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 6: is the way he was communicating with people close to

507
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 6: him in the days before his death leading up to

508
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 6: his death. Are him seeming down actually kind of about

509
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 6: that point that he's not going to be able to

510
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 6: wiggle out of that one, that there's really not enough

511
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 6: money in.

512
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: The world social death. Yeah, it was upon him.

513
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 6: Ye.

514
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 5: At one point he says like, you know, you can't.

515
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 3: I'm paraphrases and everything too.

516
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 6: Yes, at one point he says something like you can't.

517
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 6: This is no way to live, like there's no way

518
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 6: to live in prison, and so he makes it what

519
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 6: he used to Yeah, exactly, And that's that seems to

520
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 6: be what he's he's getting. Is this this In some

521
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 6: of these communications, he makes a call that could be

522
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 6: perceived as a goodbye call to his girlfriend at the time,

523
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 6: saying I won't be able to talk to you for

524
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 6: a month, blah blah blah. And he has this this

525
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 6: note that does seem to be his because Tartaglione saves

526
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 6: it gives it to his lawyers right away, so that

527
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 6: looks somewhat legitimate that he did find the note that said,

528
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 6: you know what you're going to do? Bust out crying,

529
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 6: the joke that he often used to his brother. I

530
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 6: think it's from little rascals, And yeah, I actually am

531
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 6: willing to accept to some extent, he felt like he

532
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 6: was his life was over and that the walls were

533
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 6: quite literally closing in on him, that he wasn't going

534
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 6: to be able to buy his way out of this

535
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 6: that it had.

536
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: And also for people who are like that, it's impossible

537
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: they definitely killed him. Driving him to do this would

538
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: also accomplish the same goal in a more effective way, right.

539
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 5: And some questions so remain.

540
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 6: He didn't have a cellmate that night, which he obviously

541
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 6: should have been a cellmate. There are questions being drawn

542
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 6: about his mental state, so there's there's still some weird

543
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 6: stuff going on, which in and of itself, to quote

544
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 6: jd Vance, the fact that you have a man who's

545
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 6: a sexual predator, who has all of these connections in

546
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 6: the world of international politics and finance, it's weird. And

547
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 6: then you add to this that there are all of

548
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 6: these legitimate questions about what happened to him, also weird.

549
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 6: You can't dismiss any of that. So it just leaves us,

550
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 6: i think, even once again with more questions than answers.

551
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 5: But that is part for the course as we cover

552
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 5: Epstein stories. All right, let's bring in Row Kana and.

553
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: A PAC tracker.

554
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, let's get to it.

555
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 3: Joining us now, we're going to have two guests representative

556
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: of Row Kanna from a California Corey Archibald from APAC Tracker.

557
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 3: Congressman Kanna, thank you for joining us, Good to be

558
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: back coming, and Corey, thanks for being here. Really appreciate it.

559
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 10: Always good to be here.

560
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: And Corey, you've got some interesting news that we're going

561
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 3: to get to in just a moment when we get

562
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: Congress and Kha's reaction to it. Before we get to

563
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: that real quickly, I wanted to ask you, Congressman, you

564
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: had in the Armed Services Committee tried to strip out

565
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: language that is fusing kind of US and Israeli military

566
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: and intelligence capacities. That amendment, that effort failed in the committee.

567
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: It's now head for the floor. And this is starting

568
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: to pick up an enormous amount of attention. I saw

569
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: Treaty of Parsy, and Tucker Carlson talked about it on

570
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: his recent appearance on Tucker's podcast. A lot of people

571
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: are pretty alarmed at the prospect of fusing the US

572
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: military intelligence capacities with the foreign government. Is what is

573
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: the latest on this effort to block it from becoming

574
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: part of the the NDAA.

575
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 7: Ryan, As you know, section two to two four would

576
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 7: do an n run around any human rights check in

577
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 7: providing weapons to Israel. What happened is Netanyahu realized that

578
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 7: it's becoming more unpopular for Congress to just rubber stamp

579
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 7: these sales. So he wrote a letter to two members

580
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 7: of Congress in the House of Representatives Republicans, saying, why

581
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 7: don't we just have joint production of weapons? Why don't

582
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 7: we have joint production of sales? So you have to

583
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 7: basically give us the weapons because there are weapons. When

584
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 7: I introduced the amendment to strip to two four, there

585
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 7: was only awareness of a few days, and so people

586
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 7: were just beginning to realize how problematic this provision is.

587
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 7: Now more people realize it thanks to your reporting other reporting,

588
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 7: So Thomas Massey and I are going to introduce an

589
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 7: amendment to try to strip this from the House floor

590
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 7: when the NDAA comes up for a vote on the

591
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 7: House floor. We want this amendment to strip it. First,

592
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 7: we need it to be ruled in order. It's obviously

593
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 7: in order. It's germane to the NDAA, but that is

594
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 7: one issue, and then we will have a role called

595
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 7: vote on that amendment.

596
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 6: I just have one quick question that's a follow up

597
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 6: on this, Congressman, which is have you found other people

598
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 6: who are maybe even pretty supportive of the alliance with Israel?

599
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 6: Were surprised, Like, as you've started working with Congressman Massy

600
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 6: to get this strip from the NDAA, have you found

601
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 6: people who might normally be pretty supportive of the alliance

602
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 6: with Israel being like what on earth is this? Or

603
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 6: were they, you know, kind of like the hawks defensive

604
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 6: of it.

605
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 7: Those who are in the middle the independence are surprised.

606
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 7: The questions they ask are do we have this kind

607
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 7: of arrangement with other countries? It turns out now I

608
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 7: have not found a single example of another country where

609
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 7: we have a coordinated individual who is basically responsible for

610
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 7: co production of weapons across the apartments, and as this

611
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 7: becomes more obvious, there are two concerns. There's, of course

612
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 7: the concern of the human rights to a giving weapons

613
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 7: to a country that is committing genocide. There is the

614
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 7: secondary concern of the lack of American sovereignty. And on

615
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 7: that secondary concern, you're getting a lot of people raising questions.

616
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: So Corey so APAC trackers now iconic kind of red

617
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 3: cards have become. It turns out something that really seems

618
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: to get under the skin of politicians, and I suspect

619
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: Arson Kona can confirm them from his private conversations with

620
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: his colleagues, so much so that APAC even started a

621
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 3: or some APAC offshoot started a like Islamis Tracker or

622
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: something and started making red cards that just mimicked yours

623
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 3: was a Laura Lumer.

624
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, there's a lot of copycats out there. It's funny

625
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 11: in some ways and also disturbing in others.

626
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 3: Yes, and so one problem, I guess that will tell

627
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: me where the idea came from. To allow people who

628
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: have in the past taken APAC or pro Israel money

629
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: but have since changed and are committing not to kind

630
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: of wipe away the red cars. I think it's an

631
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: interesting idea because if we are really and Graham Platter

632
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 3: said has a version of this where he says, you know,

633
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: if we're going to transform the country, we have to

634
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: allow people to transform themselves, because like people make up

635
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: the country, and so if you're going to transform our

636
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: relationship with APAC in Congress, you're going to have to

637
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 3: allow individual politicians to transform on the issue. So what

638
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 3: is the pledge that people are being asked taken? How

639
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 3: do you kind of guys come up with this idea?

640
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 5: Sure?

641
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 11: Absolutely, so thank you again for having us on. This

642
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 11: is a very exciting development for us. We have been

643
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 11: thinking and working towards this for some time. The bottom

644
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 11: line is is that while we have created a very

645
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 11: successful pressure campaign to highlight and expose the extent of

646
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 11: the influence of APAC and their allies in our lawmakers,

647
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 11: we also have a responsibility as an organization to give

648
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 11: people a bridge to get on the right side of

649
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 11: history and to reflect that their policy positions have changed

650
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 11: and to chart a new course.

651
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,959
Speaker 10: And so the idea of the pledge is really born

652
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 10: out of that.

653
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 11: It's a very firm set of policy commitments that are

654
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 11: very clear and spelled out that really just reinforce the

655
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 11: commitment to enforcing US law, encountering foreign influence, and ending

656
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 11: our complicity and war crimes.

657
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 6: And you've seen some response, interestingly enough, Bran and I

658
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 6: were just chatting about this before we started the segment

659
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 6: from people on the right, some of the on the right,

660
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 6: especially in the younger right, who are much more skeptical

661
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 6: of the American alliance with Israel, and I just wanted

662
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 6: to ask you what you've seen, how significant you've seen,

663
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 6: if it's significant at all, some folks sharing a pack

664
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 6: tracker stuff actually from the right and maybe actually using

665
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 6: it to some effect, particularly on social media.

666
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 11: We definitely see it shared by people all across the

667
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 11: political spectrum, right left, mainstream Democrats. Ironically in our largest

668
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 11: cohort of supporters are the Democratic wine Moms by and large,

669
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 11: but we see it shared among people on every single

670
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 11: part of the political spectrum. Because this has become really

671
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 11: a litmus test for our politicians. And this is something

672
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 11: I think that Ben Rhades said about a year ago

673
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 11: when they were having a conversation on Hot Save America.

674
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 11: He said that voters are not going to think that

675
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 11: you're take you seriously about healthcare if they think that

676
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 11: you're full of crap about Gaza and not as exactly

677
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 11: what we have seen reflected in the kind of social.

678
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: Dialogue and Congress, and kind of let's roll through the

679
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: pledge a little bit and see, I'm get to get

680
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 3: your take on how palatable you think this will be

681
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: to kind of an average average member of Congress. It

682
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: starts out by saying, you're not going to take money

683
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: from a pak Democratic Majority for Israel, which is an

684
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: APEC offshoot Republic Republican Jewish coalition, Christians United for Israel,

685
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 3: and then any affiliated packs are kind of highly coordinated

686
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 3: activity that kind of kind of goes around those packs.

687
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 3: It says, basically then says, you'll acknowledge that there was

688
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 3: a genocide in Gaza. It says you'll respect the Lahy

689
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: laws which say that we know we cannot fund a

690
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 3: foreign military unit that has been, you know, plausibly engaged

691
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 3: in human rights abuses. It pledges actually to oppose what

692
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 3: you were just talking about at the top of the segment,

693
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: section two twenty four, to oppose the fusion of any

694
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: foreign military or intelligence services with the US notice. It's

695
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: it covers all foreign governments, not not just Israel. H

696
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 3: pledge to support and promote accountability for those who misused

697
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: US weapons and will oppose measures to restrict the First

698
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: Amendment when it comes to you know, openly discussing uh,

699
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: these these questions.

700
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 6: Uh.

701
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: And then finally to try to overturn Citizens United A

702
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 3: pledge to you know, to get big all big money

703
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: out of politics. It doesn't call for sanctioning Israel, it

704
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 3: doesn't call for boycotting, It doesn't call, you know, for

705
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 3: any of the more kind of ultra demands that people

706
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 3: might might want to see. Basically says American dollars, American weapons,

707
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 3: and American political power must ever be used in violation

708
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 3: of the law or to enable mass atrocities.

709
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 11: Uh.

710
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 3: Seems pretty straightforward. How do you think people will respond

711
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: to this? And is signing this worth that that green card?

712
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 7: I'm proud to announce that I'm going to be signing

713
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 7: it today and I hope all Democrats will sign it

714
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 7: and some Republicans will sign it. You know, APEC cracker

715
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 7: has become such an icon that APEC attacks me for

716
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 7: not attacking APAC trackers Bill sometimes tweet out to members,

717
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 7: why aren't you attacking APAC tracker. But this is a

718
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 7: pretty simple way for folks to say, after Gaza, we

719
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 7: have a moral authority. They may not have voted with

720
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 7: Mark Pocan and Me and Promila against the AID, but

721
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 7: this gives them a clean start. And it's not very controversial.

722
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 7: I mean, the UNA said there's a genocide. Most Americans

723
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 7: don't want AID going there. They don't want our military

724
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 7: sales going there. It's very carefully worded on APEC. So

725
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 7: you can't play games. I mean a lot of people

726
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 7: don't take direct APEC money or Democratic Majority for Israel money.

727
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 7: This is you can't have bundling from people affiliated with it,

728
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 7: so you can't go around it. You can't get third

729
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 7: party groups, and that you need to be committed to

730
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 7: overturning money in politics. I hope that what we have

731
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 7: done today inspires many many people to sign up, and

732
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 7: then they'll get the green card, the coveted green card,

733
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 7: which has now become part of debates, constituent questions. In fact,

734
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 7: at one point I think I had an APEC DRAP

735
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 7: percent decent but could be better, and so.

736
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 10: I'm looking forward to my green card.

737
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 11: No go ahead, Corey, Well, I was just going to

738
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 11: add to that that that.

739
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 10: Is forthcoming today.

740
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 11: So we are also in addition to announcing that we're

741
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 11: very proud to have Representative Ocanna as the inaugural signer

742
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 11: of this pledge, but also that track APAC is endorsing

743
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 11: and where were issuing the green card for signing the

744
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 11: pledge for Representative Conna today.

745
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 3: And I think it's an interesting kind of intervention into

746
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 3: the conversation which has you know, you guys have cor

747
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 3: you guys have been accused of kind of putting your

748
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: thumb on the scale and saying, well, this person gets

749
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: some of this money, but this person doesn't yet, but

750
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 3: this person supports this policy, so they get a green card,

751
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: but you get a red card. This does seem to

752
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 3: clear it up a little bit to say, you know what,

753
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: you want a green card. It's quite easy here. It

754
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 3: is just like just sign this piece of paper and

755
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 3: you get the green card.

756
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 10: Absolutely, I mean the the the issue of.

757
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 11: What determines whether or not someone earns a red card

758
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 11: in our metrics is based both on funding that they

759
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 11: have accepted or or have benefited from, because we also

760
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 11: count independent expenditures that are spent on behalf of a

761
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 11: candidate or to promote or support a candidate's candidacy, but

762
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 11: also their policy positions. There if they're an elected then

763
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 11: they're voting record if they're running for office, and their

764
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 11: public statements and what they have committed to in both

765
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 11: public and you know, independently reported and verified private communications,

766
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 11: because we do you know that there are some that

767
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 11: are circulating circulating a PAC position keepers that did are

768
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 11: commonly circulated in secret.

769
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 10: So because it has been.

770
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 11: Based on that combination, you know, this pledge is designed

771
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 11: to give people the off ram. Okay, I've maybe accepted

772
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 11: support from the lobby in the past, or I've maybe

773
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 11: taken some votes that I would not take today based

774
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 11: on the changing of my policies. And so this pledge

775
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 11: gives people that are in that kind of position an

776
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 11: off ramp to get there.

777
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 6: And how are you anticipating, Corey, what may happen? You've

778
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 6: already seen it happen with a brand supported on this

779
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 6: often about a PAC money coming through or money that

780
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 6: supports bolstering the American Israeli's alliance coming through the things

781
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 6: that aren't now named a PAC. Because you all have

782
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 6: been a part of making the APAC brand very toxic

783
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 6: especially among Democrats. How are you planning to kind of

784
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 6: track that going forward.

785
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 10: Well, we've already started.

786
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 11: We've already built reporting tools that are helping us triangulate

787
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 11: onto the various shell packs and pop up packs that

788
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 11: they utilize. We are monitoring when we are able to

789
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 11: detect trends that they're utilizing pass throughs. I know that

790
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 11: Ryan has done a lot of reporting on both of

791
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 11: those activities, and we're continuing to refine and expand our

792
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 11: reporting tools and growing our data team to be able

793
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 11: to get more sophisticated.

794
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 10: The truth is that we have to.

795
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 11: Keep adapting because APAC is adapting their methods and the

796
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 11: lobby is adapting their methods. They do recognize that their

797
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 11: brand has become toxic. There's a reason why that anytime

798
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 11: they're spending on behalf of a candidate, their ads never

799
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 11: mention anything about that candidate's position on US.

800
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 10: And Israel policy.

801
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 11: They are always about some other issue that's not related.

802
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 11: So we are continuing to create tools and refine the

803
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 11: tools that allow us to be able to trace that

804
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 11: money and report the full make sure accurately.

805
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 3: And I'm curious the last ques, how you draw the

806
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: kind of distinction between just kind of random people who

807
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: were donating to a candidate and coordinated activity. Last this

808
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: week at drop site, Julian Andreoni and I reported on

809
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 3: Audiano espayat, for instance, on June fourth, he got he

810
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 3: reported getting sixty nine contributions. I think sixty seven of

811
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 3: them had been major either APAC or other pro asual

812
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 3: organization donors, and had given at least like one thousand dollars.

813
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 3: So we're not talking about somebody who got an email

814
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 3: from an APAC linked group and gave twenty five dollars

815
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 3: to support, you know whatever, who knows what the email

816
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 3: said might have been something innocuous. We're talking, you know,

817
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: minimum four figure contributions from each one of these people.

818
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 3: And one of the guys, Bob Cohen, was the former

819
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 3: president of APAC and had raised tens of millions of

820
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: dollars to try to defeat the Iron Nuclear Deal. So

821
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: we look at that, we're like, okay, we're going to

822
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 3: call that highly coordinated pro zeral activity, like it's just

823
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: it just obviously is. But how do you guys think

824
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: through that? Because APAC will say, oh, now you're just

825
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: coming at Jewish Americans who want to support a candidate

826
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 3: and participate in the political process, and you're stigmatizing that

827
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: in an anti Semitic way.

828
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, of course we have heard that argument, and that

829
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 11: is nonsense on its face.

830
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 10: I mean, APAC themselves doesn't even believe that.

831
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 11: You know, APAC brags all the time, and all of

832
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 11: the members of the Israel Lobbie brag all the time

833
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 11: that their members are made up of people from every

834
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 11: part of the the ideological spectrum, you know, in every

835
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 11: kind of identity.

836
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 10: So it's it's silly that they need that they make

837
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 10: that argument.

838
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 11: Tracking and reporting on the activity of the individual donors

839
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 11: is definitely a lot harder, and that's one of the

840
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 11: reasons why they've moved to that as a tactic. I

841
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 11: know that we lean very heavily on great investigative journalism

842
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 11: like what's Happening drop site, you know, with other outlets

843
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 11: when we want to be able to detect that because

844
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 11: one of the challenges is that these these donors will

845
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 11: or this activity will happen in these kind of buffers

846
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 11: of the reporting periods where it might might not show

847
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 11: up on the disclosure until after an election is actually done.

848
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 10: That happens a lot with the shell packs for example.

849
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 11: So you know, it does get tricky and that we've

850
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 11: got some work to do to figure out how to

851
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 11: really refine the individual donor recording part.

852
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: And just to be clear, like somebody like Maxine Dexter,

853
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: who's an incumbent Democrat. You know, she she got well

854
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: over a million or two million dollars in kind of

855
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 3: a pack super PAC support when she ran in her

856
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 3: Oregon race, but she has since said she regrets that

857
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: the money's toxic. She supports blocked the bombs, you know,

858
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: et cetera. So somebody like her, if she signs this pledge,

859
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 3: she's she's in the green.

860
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 10: Absolutely, She's someone that I hope would sign the pledge.

861
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 11: You know, we've seen as the APAC brand has becoming

862
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 11: crazingly toxic, We've seen members that have kind of stuck

863
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 11: their finger in the wind and seen, Okay, I see

864
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 11: which way the direction is going now, and so I'm

865
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 11: not taking a back money anymore. Great, Okay, that's a

866
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 11: nice step, but it's not enough, and that's what this

867
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 11: pledge is designed to reflect. I certainly would love for

868
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 11: Congress with Mendexter to be one of the signers of

869
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 11: this pledge. I think there's some others who have come

870
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 11: forward and said that they're no longer taking APAC money

871
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 11: that are probably less likely to agree with.

872
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 10: The finer points of the pledge.

873
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 11: But we're open to anybody who's interested in signing it.

874
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 11: We would love to have those conversations.

875
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 3: Well, Corey, thank you so much for joining us in

876
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 3: Congress and conn. I really appreciate it.

877
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 10: Thank you, thank you.

878
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 5: Well.

879
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 6: That does it for us on today's edition of Breaking Points.

880
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 5: We will be back Friday, right Ryan Friday Show. Friday Show.

881
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 6: Soger and Crystal are in tomorrow Breakingpoints dot com. If

882
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 6: you want to get a premium subscription, thank you all

883
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 6: so much for supporting the show.

884
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: It's not a premium subscription anymore. It's an environmental fee.

885
00:46:59,120 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 5: It's animent.

886
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 3: What that's for the heads?

887
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 5: I don't even know what you're doing that.

888
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: Straight upore moose heads.

889
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 5: It's an environmental fee. I see what you're doing now.

890
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 5: I needed to have it explained. I needed to have an.

891
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: Explained at all. Not a premium charge. It's an environmental fee.

892
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 5: Sounds good to me.

893
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 6: We'll be collecting the convenience fees at Breakingpoints dot com

894
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 6: and we'll see you on Friday,