WEBVTT - Bonus: The Oscars 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:22.476 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.476 --> 0:00:25.436 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:25.876 --> 0:00:29.716 I'm Noah Feldman. In honor of the Academy Awards. This weekend, 0:00:29.956 --> 0:00:32.916 we have an extra special episode for you about the 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:37.596 movie Bombshell. Bombshell is based on the sexual harassment scandal 0:00:37.636 --> 0:00:41.436 at Fox News that brought down CEO Roger Ailes. The 0:00:41.516 --> 0:00:45.196 movie is up for several awards, Best Actress for Charlie's Thren, 0:00:45.356 --> 0:00:49.236 Best Supporting Actress from Margot Robbie, and Best Makeup and Hairstyling. 0:00:50.076 --> 0:00:53.156 I got to speak to the screenwriter, Charles Randolph, about 0:00:53.156 --> 0:00:56.476 how the movie came into existence and about his views 0:00:56.756 --> 0:01:00.276 on the awards process in general and the complicated politics 0:01:00.396 --> 0:01:04.516 that surround them. Charles, thank you so much for being here. 0:01:04.636 --> 0:01:08.716 This is a thrill for me. Gladly, Gladly, I want 0:01:08.716 --> 0:01:12.236 to star. Are talking about the process that led you 0:01:12.356 --> 0:01:16.036 to write the screenplay for Bombshell? Okay, and take us back. 0:01:16.196 --> 0:01:18.556 You had just maybe it was right when you had 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:21.756 just won your Academy Award for Big Short, or maybe 0:01:21.756 --> 0:01:23.836 it was before that. What was the timing in relationship? 0:01:23.956 --> 0:01:25.876 It was not long after, you know, so you're you're 0:01:25.876 --> 0:01:28.316 at the top of your career, You've just won an 0:01:28.316 --> 0:01:32.316 Academy award, and you're thinking, what project do I do next? 0:01:32.516 --> 0:01:38.876 How did you gravitate to the Fox News harassment story? Wow? 0:01:38.916 --> 0:01:41.436 What a good question. You know it's a great story, right. 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:45.476 The fact that a story of feminist determination came from 0:01:45.516 --> 0:01:49.556 these conservative women was really interesting and complicated. And what 0:01:49.596 --> 0:01:52.836 you're always looking for is you're looking for strong characters 0:01:52.836 --> 0:01:56.876 with strong internal conflicts. We think of a movie being 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:01.956 made about your life as an award that Hollywood gives you, 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:04.356 but that's not the case. We are always looking for 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:07.956 stories where people have a rich and unusual and you 0:02:07.996 --> 0:02:11.276 need both in conflict that will drive the story forward. 0:02:11.596 --> 0:02:14.756 And Megan and Gretchen both had that. Megan Kelly, Gretchen 0:02:14.796 --> 0:02:16.516 Carls said, everybody know there knows their names and first 0:02:16.556 --> 0:02:18.236 names are appropriate, but we should say it at least 0:02:18.276 --> 0:02:21.236 once exactly. So that's that's what was the appeal, like, 0:02:21.796 --> 0:02:26.596 this is a fascinating story with strong characters, was strong conflicts. Also, 0:02:26.636 --> 0:02:28.396 I mean I am a bit of a contrarian. So 0:02:28.436 --> 0:02:33.396 the idea that this moment preme too moment with such 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:37.676 illustrative power in our society came from inside Fox News 0:02:37.876 --> 0:02:40.556 was sort of fascinating, although me too hadn't happened yet 0:02:40.676 --> 0:02:42.236 when you sat down to write this. Now it had. 0:02:42.396 --> 0:02:44.076 We'll get to that more in a second, but I 0:02:44.076 --> 0:02:46.636 just want to go back to this question of the conflicts, right. 0:02:46.876 --> 0:02:49.356 I mean, to see the film is to believe you, 0:02:49.476 --> 0:02:52.836 because you wrote them as characters with extraordinary conflicence. It's 0:02:52.836 --> 0:02:55.196 one of the reasons it's such a skillful script. But 0:02:55.916 --> 0:02:59.316 what conflicts did you see as it were before you started? 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:01.676 I mean, when I hear that story, I don't think 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:04.996 to myself, oh my goodness, what cont this is? Maybe 0:03:05.156 --> 0:03:07.636 why I'm not a scamwriter. What made you think there 0:03:07.756 --> 0:03:09.996 were conflicts there? Did you know in advance there had 0:03:10.036 --> 0:03:14.516 to have been conflict? Megan Kelly was quiet for ten days? 0:03:15.516 --> 0:03:19.756 Why right, this thing happens. It's in everyone's interests to 0:03:19.836 --> 0:03:22.636 go out and say, Roger's fine, these things, these things 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:25.996 never happened all that. But she was silent, right, So 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:28.116 what happened in that time? And that's where you start. 0:03:28.156 --> 0:03:30.436 You start with this thing of hmm, that's really interesting. 0:03:30.516 --> 0:03:33.836 She was quiet, so so you really are starting from that, 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:37.836 You're starting from m there's a tell there. Let me 0:03:37.876 --> 0:03:40.676 ask a follow out a question about to tell. One 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:43.436 of the remarkable things that you do is you tell 0:03:43.516 --> 0:03:46.756 stories that are true stories, right, but you're still in 0:03:46.836 --> 0:03:50.036 some way fictionalizing them for the screen. And that's an 0:03:50.036 --> 0:03:53.076 incredibly delicate dance in its own way. It's much harder 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:56.956 than doing a pure truth documentary or pure made up fiction. 0:03:56.996 --> 0:03:59.076 It's it's just a higher degree of difficulty, as it 0:03:59.116 --> 0:04:02.716 were on the dive. Right. So you imagined that those 0:04:02.756 --> 0:04:05.516 ten days embodied a conflict, right, and you made a 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:08.916 movie where those ten days do embody a conflict. Would 0:04:08.956 --> 0:04:11.316 it matter to you if, in fact the ten days 0:04:11.316 --> 0:04:13.596 were you know, she called her lawyers and they were like, 0:04:13.716 --> 0:04:15.556 let's see how this plays out. You know, we have 0:04:15.596 --> 0:04:17.156 a goal of getting more money at the end of 0:04:17.196 --> 0:04:19.996 the day, and if it didn't reflect some internal conflict, 0:04:20.036 --> 0:04:23.076 would that matter or would it? Would it would? You know, 0:04:23.196 --> 0:04:26.636 she's watched the film and she's come out and said 0:04:26.716 --> 0:04:30.636 that my portrayal of that internal conflict is too harsh 0:04:30.676 --> 0:04:33.716 in some ways against her, because she was always a 0:04:33.756 --> 0:04:37.276 strong advocate of women, and we have one character accuse 0:04:37.396 --> 0:04:40.996 her in her silence of having you know, perpetuated the 0:04:41.036 --> 0:04:44.836 culture of harassment, and then she reacts quite defensively in 0:04:44.876 --> 0:04:47.676 the film, you know, in that sort of classic Megan 0:04:47.756 --> 0:04:50.356 Kelly way of saying, Hey, that's how it is, snowflake 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:55.076 kind of thing. But so at the end of the day, yeah, 0:04:55.116 --> 0:05:00.636 I want the conflict to reflect a real internal dynamic 0:05:00.676 --> 0:05:02.756 that's going on in that human being, and in this 0:05:02.796 --> 0:05:04.636 case it did. She even says, you know, I have 0:05:04.716 --> 0:05:06.036 to say, I don't know if you saw the video 0:05:06.036 --> 0:05:07.756 of her watching the film, and she she says, you 0:05:07.756 --> 0:05:09.356 don't have to say. I do feel like I could 0:05:09.356 --> 0:05:13.116 have done more so while my expression of it didn't 0:05:13.116 --> 0:05:16.836 please her, the underlying fact of it I think was appropriate, 0:05:16.876 --> 0:05:19.636 and she admits that. And so, yeah, so I'm always 0:05:19.636 --> 0:05:23.196 hoping that those things that you arrive at, those internal 0:05:23.276 --> 0:05:25.996 emotional conflicts that you arrive at, that they're true and 0:05:26.036 --> 0:05:28.756 that they will resonate, because if they are, this is 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:30.516 a place where the truth will lead you to something 0:05:30.516 --> 0:05:34.156 that you can't really make up as effectively or efficiently. 0:05:34.556 --> 0:05:37.316 And so, you know, I always hope that, yes, that 0:05:37.316 --> 0:05:42.396 those portrayals and Strue Gretchen as well, reflect an underlying reality. 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:44.876 Is that because you think it's as you said, more 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:48.316 efficient from an artistic perspective, or is it an ethical concern? 0:05:48.356 --> 0:05:50.636 I mean I have in my mind the famous, maybe 0:05:50.676 --> 0:05:54.196 fictional exchange between Gertrude Stein and Picasso, when you know, 0:05:54.276 --> 0:05:56.516 she looks at her his portrait of her, and she 0:05:56.596 --> 0:05:59.356 sends him a note saying it doesn't look like me, right, 0:05:59.476 --> 0:06:03.556 and he sends her back a note saying it will. So. 0:06:03.636 --> 0:06:06.476 I mean, you know that's the case here. Your depiction 0:06:06.876 --> 0:06:10.636 of this story is the one that everyone will remember, right, 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:13.156 not just Megan Kelly, but her children and her grandchildren 0:06:13.156 --> 0:06:15.956 and the whole world. She herself will probably come to 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:18.356 remember it, and in this way, because that's the power 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:22.036 of the film like this, of a successful, widely viewed film. Yeah, 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:24.476 I take that responsibility very seriously. I do. Yeah, And 0:06:24.476 --> 0:06:27.196 it is it is largely an ethical concern to get 0:06:27.196 --> 0:06:28.996 it right. You know, there are things you have to cheat. 0:06:29.556 --> 0:06:32.636 Timeframes get truncated, for sure, Dialogue is infitted, without doubts, 0:06:32.676 --> 0:06:36.396 the emotional flavor of individual scenes changes. But I want, 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:40.516 I want the struggles that these human beings go through 0:06:40.556 --> 0:06:42.556 in this world to be as true as possible. Let 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:45.436 me ask you about again the background to that sort 0:06:45.436 --> 0:06:49.556 of remarkable video where you see Megan Kelly responding to 0:06:49.596 --> 0:06:52.876 the film right, in which she is a character. Right, 0:06:53.156 --> 0:06:56.276 very obviously she did not know what was coming. Yeah, 0:06:56.356 --> 0:07:00.076 she had no say in your script none. Technically, how 0:07:00.116 --> 0:07:02.596 does that happen? Is it that her story was sufficiently 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:05.956 in the public domain that neither you nor the producers 0:07:05.996 --> 0:07:08.636 had to go to her to get any permission or 0:07:08.676 --> 0:07:11.596 any right to use her story? Yeah, I mean, it's 0:07:11.596 --> 0:07:14.196 not the dominant part of the narrative, right, and the 0:07:14.476 --> 0:07:17.596 narrative is broader than just her story. Sure, So part 0:07:17.636 --> 0:07:20.396 of it's that. Part of it is she is a 0:07:20.396 --> 0:07:25.476 public figure who's you know, influenced our culture in big ways, 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:28.676 and our laws are structured to you know, shield anyone 0:07:28.716 --> 0:07:31.716 who wants to comment on her presence, you know, in 0:07:31.756 --> 0:07:34.116 a way. So a lot of this is you know, 0:07:34.196 --> 0:07:38.396 obviously fair use. So technically it's it's not a problem 0:07:38.396 --> 0:07:42.156 as long as you're being as truthful as possible. Also, 0:07:42.196 --> 0:07:46.356 we're we're using beats and moments that she's discussed a 0:07:46.356 --> 0:07:48.196 lot she wrote a book about that also have appeared 0:07:48.196 --> 0:07:50.636 in other media narratives It's not you know, and and 0:07:51.076 --> 0:07:54.196 appeared prior to her book as well. So, and and 0:07:54.356 --> 0:07:56.796 you know, obviously I'm talking to more than her, I'm 0:07:56.796 --> 0:07:59.596 interring you know, twenty people at Fox. So some of 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:02.156 these perspectives on scenes with her or from people who 0:08:02.276 --> 0:08:03.836 you know, are in the room with her, as opposed 0:08:03.876 --> 0:08:08.156 to coming from her directly. So she's just pretty lucky that, 0:08:08.556 --> 0:08:10.636 you know, she gets a depiction that is she may 0:08:10.636 --> 0:08:12.676 not have thought it was sufficiently sympathetic, but it is 0:08:12.716 --> 0:08:16.196 in certain respect sympathetic to her, I mean part of it. No, 0:08:16.436 --> 0:08:18.476 there's a there's a bigger issue here, which is that 0:08:18.556 --> 0:08:23.436 film is inherently humanizing. You know, the critique that a 0:08:23.516 --> 0:08:26.316 film about someone will normalize them, will platform them, isn't 0:08:26.516 --> 0:08:29.836 is true? It does. It inherently does that the worst 0:08:29.836 --> 0:08:33.956 person depicted on film will somehow be comprehensible. And if 0:08:33.956 --> 0:08:36.876 to understand all, isn't maybe to forgive all at least 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:40.596 to humanize. Yeah, exactly, So, even someone like Roger gets humanized. 0:08:40.916 --> 0:08:43.316 And this is also I remember having in the shadow 0:08:43.356 --> 0:08:46.036 of a hyperpowers and culture where so many of our 0:08:46.116 --> 0:08:49.556 narratives are dreaming driven by media that with which have 0:08:49.676 --> 0:08:52.756 been twitterized to the degree we have a strong emotional, 0:08:53.156 --> 0:08:56.356 you know, reaction to these human beings already we think 0:08:56.356 --> 0:09:00.636 we know, and so contrasting that is not difficult. Let's 0:09:00.676 --> 0:09:04.436 be clear, right, because there's been such vitification of parties 0:09:04.436 --> 0:09:07.516 on both sides of the aisle, any kind of normal 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:12.956 human discourse that's short of odious often feels very humanizing, 0:09:13.116 --> 0:09:16.636 you know. Strangely enough, that's assuming that it's short short 0:09:16.676 --> 0:09:19.116 of odious. Right to go about your ethical point, that 0:09:19.196 --> 0:09:23.076 also must be partly your choice, Yeah, to humanize because 0:09:23.076 --> 0:09:26.076 that makes it greater art. Yeah, I'm a big believer 0:09:26.196 --> 0:09:31.276 that in this particular moment, especially that the art complicates 0:09:31.996 --> 0:09:35.116 so part of it is in the shadow of partisanship. 0:09:35.236 --> 0:09:39.196 Any kind of portrayal of a real human being feels 0:09:39.236 --> 0:09:42.076 grounded and humanizing in a way. And it seems particularly 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:45.476 significant because that human is Roger Ales, who is held 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:48.756 responsible by so many people, rightly or wrongly, for our 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:52.236 culture of vilification. Yeah, exactly, that's the irony. I mean, 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:54.476 that really is. I mean, that's like irony with you know, 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:58.196 with the bright red let capital letters. Absolutely right. Yeah, 0:09:58.236 --> 0:10:00.956 so we are we are hopefully extending to mister Ale 0:10:01.076 --> 0:10:03.436 something he didn't extend to the rest of the world, right, 0:10:03.516 --> 0:10:06.636 And and that's okay. Because you know, I'm fully aware 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:09.756 of the fact that I'm being empowered and by a 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:14.196 massive amount of money and a massive distribution network that 0:10:14.276 --> 0:10:17.556 will distribute my vision of these human beings around the planet, 0:10:17.596 --> 0:10:21.676 and so certainly that comes with an obligation to hopefully 0:10:21.756 --> 0:10:26.636 be as as judicious and human as possible. One thing 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:30.836 about humanizing sexual harasser, though, which I think is actually 0:10:31.236 --> 0:10:33.676 underlooked in the public discourse around this, is, of course 0:10:33.676 --> 0:10:36.116 we're all eager to condemn everyone who engages in sexual 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:39.036 harass rise evil, right, But if you think that it's 0:10:39.076 --> 0:10:41.356 only the most extreme evil people who engage in the 0:10:41.396 --> 0:10:44.156 sexual harassment, then it's really hard to explain why there's 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:46.036 so much of it out there in the world. And 0:10:46.156 --> 0:10:48.636 most of it is realizing that lots of people who 0:10:48.716 --> 0:10:50.716 don't think they're such terrible people, and who might in 0:10:50.796 --> 0:10:53.716 other domains that their lives not be so terrible, could 0:10:53.756 --> 0:10:57.476 still do this. Absolutely so, the guy twirling his mustache, 0:10:57.636 --> 0:10:59.716 you know, is not the one who's going to create 0:10:59.756 --> 0:11:02.836 the most emotional damage in a woman's life. It's the 0:11:02.876 --> 0:11:05.676 person she considers a friend who on the business trip 0:11:05.756 --> 0:11:07.836 suddenly you know, says, hey, let's go to the hotel 0:11:07.876 --> 0:11:10.596 bar and then goes out from there, or the or 0:11:10.636 --> 0:11:12.956 the man she considers a mentor you know, those are 0:11:12.956 --> 0:11:15.676 the situations where you get the most in trouble. So 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:19.716 so with Roger, part of it was creating a portrait 0:11:19.756 --> 0:11:22.556 of him that allowed us to sympathize with him to 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:25.956 the degree that those scenes could have real power. You know, 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:28.076 we reach the point of the conversation where you know, 0:11:28.116 --> 0:11:31.036 two white guys are now talking about sexual harassment. We 0:11:31.076 --> 0:11:33.636 can hear the little voice you know in our in 0:11:33.676 --> 0:11:36.796 our ears saying what's wrong with this picture? And it 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:38.796 won't be sufficient to answer to say, well, white guys 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:40.836 do most of the sexual harassments, or why shouldn't we 0:11:40.876 --> 0:11:43.876 be the ones to speak about it? In this contemporary 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:48.116 era where we're all very focused and concerned appropriately on agency, 0:11:48.676 --> 0:11:51.036 it seems like a violation of agency for the two 0:11:51.076 --> 0:11:53.116 of us to sit here and talk about sexual harassment 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:55.716 from the standpoint as it were, of the harasser, right 0:11:56.156 --> 0:11:58.836 when there are human beings women being harassed and you 0:11:58.916 --> 0:12:00.796 want to have the agency to speak about this topic. 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:03.756 So I just want to ask you for your thoughts 0:12:03.796 --> 0:12:07.996 of starting with the critique that simply says, you know, 0:12:08.116 --> 0:12:11.476 why why you yeah. Well, I wrote the script before 0:12:11.516 --> 0:12:15.796 the Me Too movement began in its most populous form, 0:12:15.916 --> 0:12:18.996 so prior to the Harvey Weinstein I've actually finished about 0:12:18.996 --> 0:12:23.156 three well two months before the Harvey case broke. That 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:25.796 was fast worry. Yeah, yeah, So I wrote it over that, 0:12:25.836 --> 0:12:28.236 you know, just after the election, over that spring, So 0:12:28.316 --> 0:12:31.716 in a way, there was no one telling that story 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:37.156 at the time. Had Harvey's situation occurred, I probably would 0:12:37.196 --> 0:12:38.636 not have written it, probably would not have sold it. 0:12:38.676 --> 0:12:40.356 I'd have probably thought, oh, this issue is getting enough 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:42.636 traction that I don't have to So part of this 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:44.596 is just, you know, this feeling that no one was 0:12:44.636 --> 0:12:46.676 saying telling the story and it needed to be told. 0:12:46.996 --> 0:12:49.156 And that's, by the way, something that the public just 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:51.636 isn't that aware of. They see a film coming out 0:12:51.716 --> 0:12:54.756 now a couple of years after Me Too, and they think, oh, 0:12:54.876 --> 0:12:56.796 this was a me too movie, not realizing it just 0:12:56.836 --> 0:12:59.116 takes a long time to put together a film like 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:02.556 that take forever. I mean, contracts alone take eight months, 0:13:02.596 --> 0:13:04.316 you know, plus legal vetting on a film like this, 0:13:04.356 --> 0:13:06.316 it just takes forever. So part of your answer is 0:13:06.676 --> 0:13:08.916 when you started doing it, there wasn't in Me Too. Yeah, 0:13:08.916 --> 0:13:10.716 But but but but that's you know, that's a cop 0:13:10.716 --> 0:13:12.676 out of us. I think there's a you know, let's 0:13:12.716 --> 0:13:15.396 let's address the real problem is should men be telling 0:13:15.396 --> 0:13:20.196 these stories? And I go back and forth myself. Right, Partly, yes, there, 0:13:20.196 --> 0:13:23.196 you know, I'm also writing men in these situations and 0:13:23.276 --> 0:13:27.156 getting that right, getting that accurately matters for helping us 0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:32.956 understand this. And certainly the other thing is my greatest 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:36.956 desire is to put men in those rooms, like the 0:13:36.996 --> 0:13:41.116 situation in the film between Margot Robbie's character Kayla and 0:13:41.276 --> 0:13:44.036 Roger Ailes, because if I can put men in those rooms, 0:13:44.076 --> 0:13:48.156 they can see how these situations are a extremely complicated 0:13:48.836 --> 0:13:51.596 and can be utterly life changing. I have found in 0:13:51.636 --> 0:13:54.956 my own life a tendency when these narratives pop up 0:13:55.716 --> 0:13:59.636 to be a little dismissive in an almost instinctual way. 0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:02.876 It's almost as though, you know, the minute I hear 0:14:02.876 --> 0:14:06.716 one of these stories, I have this Darwinian thing to say, yeah, 0:14:06.756 --> 0:14:08.836 but you know she went into that office, Well, like 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:11.596 I'm immediately have that thing that comes up, that voice 0:14:11.596 --> 0:14:15.796 in my head, that masculine protective, that sort of gender defensiveness. 0:14:15.996 --> 0:14:18.556 And so I wanted to I wanted to interrogate that 0:14:18.596 --> 0:14:21.236 part of myself. You know, as I say, I wanted 0:14:21.276 --> 0:14:26.796 to drag my own prejudices through, you know, a gauntlet 0:14:26.796 --> 0:14:29.436 of real lives and sort of sort of examine on them. 0:14:29.876 --> 0:14:33.956 And so I guess I hope that in showing those 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:38.396 situations two men around the world, I am doing the 0:14:38.516 --> 0:14:42.596 greater good, and that I am willing to accept the 0:14:42.636 --> 0:14:45.436 critique that there probably is someone who could have told 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:49.276 this story better, who is a woman, but you know, 0:14:49.436 --> 0:14:52.156 she had not yet emerged, and so I did what 0:14:52.236 --> 0:14:55.156 I could. So it's interesting. They're they're sort of two strands. 0:14:55.556 --> 0:15:00.516 One is the educative part, yeah, and strands too, I thought, 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:03.716 was the internal part, the part where every artist is 0:15:03.756 --> 0:15:06.636 to some extent grappling with his or her own internal 0:15:06.716 --> 0:15:09.556 voices and internal demons. And I think what you say is, 0:15:09.836 --> 0:15:12.876 I think it's true surely of the great majority of men, 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:17.836 and very possibly of just about all men, that they will, instinctively, 0:15:17.956 --> 0:15:21.876 even if their consciousness has been raised, identify with other 0:15:21.916 --> 0:15:25.836 men or want to deny the depth and extremity of 0:15:26.076 --> 0:15:27.916 you know, what reality tells us. I mean, my version 0:15:27.956 --> 0:15:30.076 of that would be just time after time during the 0:15:30.196 --> 0:15:34.836 me two process, saying that guy, that guy, now that guy, 0:15:34.956 --> 0:15:36.476 you know, and just thinking to myself at a certain 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:38.956 point I realized, you know, you know, no, you just 0:15:39.076 --> 0:15:41.756 don't know what man a capable, right, you know, you 0:15:41.876 --> 0:15:44.636 just you know, maybe you have your own superrego has 0:15:44.676 --> 0:15:46.436 developed in a certain kind of way, a certain kind 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:48.916 of guilt consciousness. But maybe not everybody is, you know. 0:15:49.036 --> 0:15:51.756 But the point is just a recognition that I share 0:15:51.836 --> 0:15:54.596 that that same kind of gender protective instinct. I think 0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:57.436 we have it right. I think though, that the left 0:15:57.476 --> 0:16:01.876 critique from a strong feminist would go after both of 0:16:01.916 --> 0:16:05.356 these things by saying, well, education is great, but couldn't 0:16:05.356 --> 0:16:07.116 you have picked another story to do it all right? 0:16:07.196 --> 0:16:09.916 Or you know, why does this have to men educating 0:16:09.956 --> 0:16:13.116 men using the story of women as their instruments. And 0:16:13.156 --> 0:16:15.036 then on the personal thing, they would say, well, that's it. 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:18.396 They accept that, they would accept that art always involves 0:16:18.396 --> 0:16:20.956 some self exploration, right, but they want to see the 0:16:20.996 --> 0:16:23.676 film that would emerge if that self exploration was from 0:16:23.676 --> 0:16:26.156 the women's perspective rather than the men's. And then they 0:16:26.156 --> 0:16:29.076 would point to the industry and say, well, maybe no 0:16:29.116 --> 0:16:31.316 one had emerged, but maybe that's because women were denied 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:35.836 the opportunity you know, for their voices to emerge, and 0:16:35.876 --> 0:16:39.236 they would be right right on both counts in my book, right, Yeah. 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:43.556 And I would like to think that our film is 0:16:43.796 --> 0:16:47.756 moving the ball down the field, right, and that someone 0:16:47.796 --> 0:16:49.916 else can come along and say, Okay, here's this film. 0:16:49.916 --> 0:16:51.636 It was made for thirty he's going to make you know, 0:16:51.836 --> 0:16:54.876 fifty sixty million worldwide. So there is you know, there's 0:16:54.916 --> 0:16:57.476 a door open there that we can prove these stories. 0:16:57.516 --> 0:17:00.716 There's an audience for these stories, and so that so 0:17:00.796 --> 0:17:04.516 that we are you know, we are delicately laying the 0:17:05.036 --> 0:17:08.996 foundation for you know, the quintessential me too movie to 0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:11.836 come along, you know, three four or five, six years 0:17:11.836 --> 0:17:14.316 from now, totally done by women. Right, And when someone 0:17:14.356 --> 0:17:18.276 writes the Harvey Weinstein biopic, it will be a woman. Yeah. 0:17:18.316 --> 0:17:19.916 And I and I think I think the two people 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:22.116 that are hired for that picture. I think they're two 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:24.716 projects are both women too. You know that makes sense. 0:17:24.996 --> 0:17:27.516 I was speaking abstractly, but but in real life, I 0:17:27.516 --> 0:17:29.796 guess that's already happening. Yeah. Plan B's got one, and 0:17:29.796 --> 0:17:32.476 I think there's another one out there too, right. And 0:17:32.476 --> 0:17:34.756 there's also a film, an indie film coming out about 0:17:34.996 --> 0:17:38.036 assistant in Harvey's life. So so there are other things coming, 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:40.476 for sure, you know, And it's but it's part of 0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:43.156 a you know, it's part of this broader conversation about 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:46.956 how we are going to reach some version of parody 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:51.036 behind the camera, and how can we do that as ruthlessly, 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:54.356 efficiently and quickly as possible. You see that playing out, 0:17:54.436 --> 0:17:56.956 you know, in the Oscar you know conversation right now. 0:17:56.996 --> 0:18:01.156 But you know, I'm more than willing to take whatever 0:18:01.196 --> 0:18:05.676 criticism comes by virtue of of of just wanting to 0:18:05.716 --> 0:18:09.516 do whatever we can to help the situation. Were there 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:13.356 other critiques beyond the gender identity one that struck you 0:18:13.436 --> 0:18:16.796 as meaningful ones, Well, what you what we get a 0:18:16.796 --> 0:18:20.916 lot of is frustration that the film does not take 0:18:21.076 --> 0:18:25.676 Megan to task more for her complicity in the broader culture. 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:29.076 I say, fox right, And that's a little difficult because 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:31.116 what I wanted to avoid was making it sound as 0:18:31.116 --> 0:18:36.836 though right wing ideology creates necessarily a context for harassment, 0:18:36.876 --> 0:18:38.836 because we know that's not true. This is happening in 0:18:38.876 --> 0:18:42.356 every office around the country, right. I think really, at 0:18:42.356 --> 0:18:43.996 the end of the day, a lot of people wanted 0:18:44.036 --> 0:18:47.316 the race issue to be addressed, and I struggle with this. 0:18:48.116 --> 0:18:51.396 You know, I had early drafts where, you know, I 0:18:51.476 --> 0:18:53.396 tried to address it. There's a you know, sort of 0:18:53.396 --> 0:18:56.676 a famous bookkeeping office where things got pretty dark over 0:18:56.716 --> 0:18:59.556 at Fox, and there were a couple of lawsuits of 0:18:59.676 --> 0:19:02.596 race based harassment. I tried to have Roger walk into 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:04.596 one of them one at one point. You know, all this, 0:19:04.716 --> 0:19:06.556 and it's just it never worked. It felt like we 0:19:06.556 --> 0:19:10.956 were undermining the issue of her rassment itself. Until I 0:19:10.956 --> 0:19:13.316 came up with this thing. I was convinced was genius. 0:19:13.356 --> 0:19:15.036 And here's how I was going to solve this problem. 0:19:16.996 --> 0:19:19.396 Four or five six times in the film, an African 0:19:19.436 --> 0:19:23.836 American individual with wandering frame and they would see the camera, 0:19:23.876 --> 0:19:26.916 they would have sort of privileged gaze of the sort 0:19:26.916 --> 0:19:30.036 of context of production, so to speak, and they go, 0:19:30.076 --> 0:19:32.996 oh sorry and back out right. And so the idea 0:19:33.076 --> 0:19:36.756 with it, anytime an African American person was introduced into 0:19:36.796 --> 0:19:39.116 the frame, they would be, oh, oh sorry, just leave 0:19:39.156 --> 0:19:42.716 the frame right to suggest that this is subtly and 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:48.396 comedically a not very subtly comedically a environment absolutely hostile 0:19:48.476 --> 0:19:52.796 to that perspective. Now, in saying that you already know 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:54.956 what I discovered it in the editing room with Jay, 0:19:55.036 --> 0:19:58.556 which is this was a very bad idea. Made it 0:19:58.636 --> 0:20:01.076 look like they were saying that the movie was a 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:03.516 white people's movie rather than that Fox News was a 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:06.316 white people's environment. It was hard to read the intent, 0:20:06.796 --> 0:20:09.276 but the fact you're asking the audience to read the 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:12.676 intent at the moment already suggest problems, right, you know. 0:20:13.036 --> 0:20:14.636 And it was one of those things that was either 0:20:14.716 --> 0:20:18.116 confusing or just it just felt like it was the 0:20:18.196 --> 0:20:21.476 disease it purported to cure, you know, yes, and so 0:20:21.476 --> 0:20:24.516 so at the end of the day, both the structural 0:20:24.516 --> 0:20:26.236 things I tried to do it to address race at 0:20:26.236 --> 0:20:28.756 Fox and the playful things I tried to do just 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:32.036 didn't work, right, So that's you know, you do what 0:20:32.076 --> 0:20:34.156 you can. Thankfully, it's a you know, it's a medium, 0:20:34.196 --> 0:20:36.436 that's it's slow, but but we have the ability to 0:20:36.476 --> 0:20:38.836 correct our mistakes. And we just took that out and 0:20:39.036 --> 0:20:43.276 and you know, now you can, as critics do, complain 0:20:43.316 --> 0:20:46.796 about their address addressing the race issue. So you mentioned 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:49.516 the Oscar context, right, and I think that's a great 0:20:49.716 --> 0:20:56.156 topic to talk about here. Um, is there a revenge 0:20:56.356 --> 0:21:01.236 or reaction or blowback moment coming from the men in 0:21:01.516 --> 0:21:04.236 the Oscar nomination process. I think you're seeing that now, right. 0:21:04.276 --> 0:21:07.836 I think this this season is very mail driven, with 0:21:07.876 --> 0:21:10.436 a lot of films address seeing sort of male identity 0:21:10.476 --> 0:21:14.236 and revisiting male identity. And part of that, I think 0:21:14.516 --> 0:21:18.316 is the fact that a certain core group of filmmakers 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:23.036 who obviously make movies about strongly male issues are making 0:21:23.076 --> 0:21:25.316 their films. But yeah, I think I think we're in 0:21:25.396 --> 0:21:27.876 a little bit of a broader cultural blowback against me too, 0:21:27.916 --> 0:21:31.156 and I think the film season this year reflects that 0:21:31.276 --> 0:21:33.356