WEBVTT - Oscar Season with Talk Easy 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Bushkin. 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.076 Hey friends, Malcolm here. I hope you're enjoying the Development 0:00:27.116 --> 0:00:29.636 Hell series as much as we are. We've got more 0:00:29.716 --> 0:00:32.716 great ones in the pipeline. Well, well, we've got our 0:00:32.716 --> 0:00:36.076 heads in Hollywood and the Oscars coming up this weekend. 0:00:36.436 --> 0:00:38.996 I want to share a great interview from our friends 0:00:38.996 --> 0:00:42.836 over at Talk Easy. Sam Fragoso talks with the brilliant 0:00:42.876 --> 0:00:46.796 New York Times critic Wesley Morris all about this year's 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:50.236 Oscar contenders and the movies that should have made the 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:54.436 cut but didn't, plus the state of the industry in general. 0:00:55.356 --> 0:00:57.836 It's a great listen, and don't worry. We'll be back 0:00:57.876 --> 0:01:01.596 on Thursday with the next episode from Development Hell. 0:01:20.556 --> 0:01:22.836 This is Talk Easy. I'm stud Forgoso. 0:01:23.876 --> 0:01:48.236 Welcome to the show. 0:01:37.996 --> 0:01:38.396 Today. 0:01:38.516 --> 0:01:42.316 I am joined by writer and fellow podcaster Wesley Morris. 0:01:42.916 --> 0:01:46.036 Since twenty fifteen, Morris has served as the critic at 0:01:46.076 --> 0:01:48.596 large for The New York Times, where he's also co 0:01:48.636 --> 0:01:54.396 hosted the popular podcast Still Processing alongside Jay Wortham. While 0:01:54.396 --> 0:01:58.196 the show has been on hiatus, Wesley has continued publishing 0:01:58.316 --> 0:02:02.356 searching and often moving essays that explore the intersection of 0:02:02.476 --> 0:02:06.236 race and pop culture. His work was first awarded the 0:02:06.236 --> 0:02:09.556 pull to Prize for Criticism in twenty twelve his ten 0:02:09.636 --> 0:02:12.716 year at The Boston Globe, and then again most recently 0:02:12.756 --> 0:02:15.636 in twenty twenty one, at the height of the pandemic. 0:02:16.276 --> 0:02:18.916 But what I think makes his work special, and you'll 0:02:18.956 --> 0:02:22.716 hear it a fair bit in this conversation is not 0:02:22.796 --> 0:02:26.316 only his ability to connect the dots or to see 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:29.316 the bigger picture, but to do so in real time 0:02:29.516 --> 0:02:33.716 with readers and listeners alike. Wesley doesn't come to the 0:02:33.716 --> 0:02:37.636 page or the microphone with the puzzle pre assembled. The 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:41.476 pieces of the story or the theory are always there, yes, 0:02:41.556 --> 0:02:44.876 But the road to a good idea, the discovery process, 0:02:44.916 --> 0:02:49.076 which can often be vulnerable and vexing, is one he 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:53.756 invites us into with wit, wisdom, and warmth. And so 0:02:54.236 --> 0:02:56.396 this week I want him to sit with Morris on 0:02:56.436 --> 0:03:00.156 the heels of this year's Academy Award nominations to try 0:03:00.156 --> 0:03:03.396 to make sense of what these ten films both say 0:03:03.596 --> 0:03:07.276 and represent about movies in twenty twenty four. Pictures like 0:03:07.516 --> 0:03:11.316 Barbie Oppenheimer, Killers of the Flower Moon, the Holdovers, are 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:14.716 they a window into the future of cinema or merely 0:03:14.756 --> 0:03:18.756 a reflection of this precarious moment in Hollywood. We also 0:03:18.876 --> 0:03:22.596 discuss his early adventures in moviegoing growing up in Philadelphia, 0:03:23.116 --> 0:03:27.276 the indie boom of the late nineties, the gradual erosion 0:03:27.356 --> 0:03:29.756 of what he calls the middle brow movie in the 0:03:29.756 --> 0:03:33.396 wake of Marvel now Mattel, and how the film industry 0:03:33.516 --> 0:03:36.636 has continued to struggle in its attempts to create a 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:41.316 more diverse and equitable ecosystem, both in front and behind 0:03:41.436 --> 0:03:46.236 the camera. When Wesley accepted his second pull To prize 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:49.356 in twenty twenty one, he said, at its most essential, 0:03:49.676 --> 0:03:53.036 criticism does save people money and it can expose them 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:57.596 to new, mind blowing work. It doesn't save lives, but 0:03:57.996 --> 0:04:00.716 it can give life. And so by the end of 0:04:00.796 --> 0:04:04.276 this conversation, it's my hope that this episode will do 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:09.116 the same for you. And with that, this is Wesleymore. 0:04:09.156 --> 0:04:28.116 Yes, Hi Westley, Hello Sam, how are you? Thanks for 0:04:28.156 --> 0:04:28.556 having me? 0:04:29.236 --> 0:04:31.436 That sounded a little labored? 0:04:31.796 --> 0:04:36.596 Sounds I mean, this is the year of our Lord, 0:04:36.636 --> 0:04:39.556 twenty twenty four. I think we're all in for some labor. 0:04:39.596 --> 0:04:42.476 If I've sound like this in January, I think you 0:04:42.676 --> 0:04:46.116 just check with me in eleven months or ten months. 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:46.556 And see where I am. 0:04:46.596 --> 0:04:48.156 Do you want to schedule a time to come back 0:04:48.196 --> 0:04:51.716 on November fifteenth, twenty twenty four. 0:04:52.676 --> 0:04:55.556 That guess should not be me. You can do you 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:56.516 can do better than me. 0:04:56.716 --> 0:04:58.716 I think David Remnick has signed up for that slot. 0:04:58.876 --> 0:05:02.916 Remnick for better or Worse. Oh all right, well, then 0:05:03.516 --> 0:05:04.436 bring your tissues. 0:05:04.596 --> 0:05:06.396 We can do a panel. We can do a panel. 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:09.116 Have you ever you've never done a panel on this show. 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:10.036 Oh, we don't do panels. 0:05:10.116 --> 0:05:11.836 I mean, that's not how this works. 0:05:12.036 --> 0:05:16.636 I want to start with maybe less apocalyptic news in 0:05:16.716 --> 0:05:19.036 the recent Oscar nominations. 0:05:20.356 --> 0:05:22.676 I mean, it depends on who you're talking. 0:05:22.436 --> 0:05:24.476 To what we're talking to you, So we're going to 0:05:24.516 --> 0:05:25.036 start there. 0:05:25.316 --> 0:05:27.716 I mean it was apocalyptic for Greta Gerwig. 0:05:27.956 --> 0:05:31.916 Yes, well, we'll have to get into them. In the past, 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:35.596 you've called the Oscars quote a diagnosis of the health 0:05:35.636 --> 0:05:38.716 of the movies and the five the ten films nominated 0:05:38.756 --> 0:05:41.796 for Best Picture operate as a class that doubles as 0:05:41.836 --> 0:05:44.716 an x ray of the Academy and the movie business 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:49.116 at large. So, now that we have the nominations and 0:05:49.156 --> 0:05:53.756 the dust has settled a little bit, what is your diagnosis. 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:57.916 I was thinking about the pandemic years and the Oscars 0:05:58.396 --> 0:06:02.116 and all the rule bending that the Academy did in 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:07.276 order to not have a show. Moving dates, expanding the 0:06:08.556 --> 0:06:13.036 release are the sort of eligibility windows what constituted a 0:06:13.116 --> 0:06:17.796 motion picture. There are all these adjustments the Academy was 0:06:18.076 --> 0:06:20.956 trying to do in order to keep the show going on, 0:06:21.516 --> 0:06:24.276 and it was pretty funny because things looked really bad, 0:06:24.516 --> 0:06:27.036 and how things looked a couple of years ago was 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:29.476 that we weren't going to go to the movies again, 0:06:29.836 --> 0:06:33.116 and every Best Picture nominee was probably going to be 0:06:33.116 --> 0:06:34.996 watched on a TV by more people than saw it 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:39.596 in a movie theater during its initial run. And that 0:06:39.756 --> 0:06:41.756 is how, in some ways, you wind up with a 0:06:41.756 --> 0:06:45.396 movie like Coda winning Best Picture, which is the kind 0:06:45.436 --> 0:06:47.316 of movie where, like, you know, I watched it the 0:06:47.356 --> 0:06:50.596 way pretty much everybody in the Academy who voted for it, 0:06:50.636 --> 0:06:52.956 and you just got to think, like with your eyes closed, 0:06:53.756 --> 0:06:56.676 I liked that movie. And it's funny because I watched 0:06:56.716 --> 0:07:01.276 it and I knew instantly by the time, like when 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:05.156 they go to the audition and she does the song 0:07:05.316 --> 0:07:08.956 and the family's up in the balcony and you experience 0:07:08.996 --> 0:07:11.756 it from their point of view, I was like, there's 0:07:11.876 --> 0:07:15.676 no way in the world this movie does not win 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:18.716 the Oscar for Best Picture, it's your winner. I felt 0:07:18.756 --> 0:07:22.476 like this is what the movies deserve. The movies deserve 0:07:22.836 --> 0:07:27.156 codea winning Best Picture. The point is I feel comfortable 0:07:27.596 --> 0:07:30.556 with where we are now versus where we were in 0:07:30.596 --> 0:07:37.316 two thousand, nineteen to twenty twenty two twenty one, mostly 0:07:37.396 --> 0:07:42.196 because the movies are better. I think the movie attendance 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:44.356 is not as bad as it seemed like it was 0:07:44.396 --> 0:07:47.196 going to be. You know, it's funny. Coco Goff, in 0:07:47.236 --> 0:07:49.356 her press conference the other day after she lost to 0:07:49.396 --> 0:07:54.276 Arena Sablanca in the semifinals of the Australian Open, was 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:56.996 talking about how bad, how she wasn't gonna get too 0:07:57.036 --> 0:07:59.036 down on herself, and she's like, you know, I'm Tomorrow's 0:07:59.076 --> 0:08:01.796 another day. I'm just gonna go see a movie and 0:08:02.196 --> 0:08:04.516 say that I didn't do so bad. And I was like, 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:07.916 this is a nineteen year old person saying they're gonna 0:08:07.996 --> 0:08:09.116 cheer up by going to a movie. 0:08:09.796 --> 0:08:10.356 Incredible. 0:08:10.476 --> 0:08:12.476 That just kind of kind of gladdened my heart a 0:08:12.516 --> 0:08:14.236 little bit. It made me feel like it was possibly 0:08:14.316 --> 0:08:18.596 nineteen eighty nine. And I just think that for one thing. 0:08:18.996 --> 0:08:23.636 The Best Picture nominees include the two movies that made 0:08:23.716 --> 0:08:28.796 people believe that movie going was gonna be okay and 0:08:28.836 --> 0:08:33.996 would survive and would be would remain profitable, and not 0:08:34.596 --> 0:08:36.996 just it's not just the money, it's also just the 0:08:37.036 --> 0:08:42.796 cultural lifespan of what Barbie and Oppenheimer managed to do. 0:08:42.836 --> 0:08:46.156 You know, it created a sort of side imagination in 0:08:46.196 --> 0:08:52.596 the culture where we could not stop mocking, meaning overthinking, rethinking, 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:58.516 defending some aspect of both those movies. And there their 0:08:58.516 --> 0:08:59.556 Best Picture nominees. 0:08:59.596 --> 0:09:02.156 Well, let's start with those two, because as the nominations 0:09:02.196 --> 0:09:05.836 came out, people once again came to the defense of Barbie, 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:09.716 in part because Greta Gerrig was not not nominated for 0:09:09.796 --> 0:09:14.916 Best Director, and also because Margot Robbie was not recognized 0:09:14.996 --> 0:09:19.916 in the Best Actress category. Even former Secretary Hillary Clinton 0:09:20.716 --> 0:09:24.236 chimed in on Barbie Gate with the sentence that I'm 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:25.196 going to read for you here. 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:27.556 Oh I did not know this hit me. 0:09:27.756 --> 0:09:31.956 She wrote, Greta and Margo, while it can, sting to 0:09:31.996 --> 0:09:34.556 win the box office but not take home. 0:09:35.796 --> 0:09:38.676 Oh no, Hillary went there. 0:09:39.796 --> 0:09:40.756 Let me try to get. 0:09:42.636 --> 0:09:42.996 Lord. 0:09:43.236 --> 0:09:44.876 I'm sorry, keep going. 0:09:45.076 --> 0:09:50.116 Greta and Margo, Oh God, while it can. You know, 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:55.516 sometimes being a Democrat is so embarrassing, so embarrassing. 0:09:55.796 --> 0:09:59.876 But at least Democrats seem to watch things and then 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:02.516 have feelings about them. Yes, anyway, just go on. 0:10:02.596 --> 0:10:06.356 Okay, Greta and Margo take three. Well it can sting 0:10:06.476 --> 0:10:09.036 to win the box office, but not take home the 0:10:09.996 --> 0:10:14.036 You're millions of fans love you. You're both so much 0:10:14.076 --> 0:10:18.476 more than kanough hashtag Hillary Barbie. 0:10:18.756 --> 0:10:23.756 Oh you know, as Hallmark cards go. I mean, I 0:10:23.756 --> 0:10:26.716 don't know any other presidential loser who would do a 0:10:26.756 --> 0:10:33.156 better job, frankly, but Hillary Clinton is more than entitled 0:10:33.436 --> 0:10:36.516 to look at the results of the Oscar nominations and 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:39.116 go to a place. I think that it's a little 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:41.796 I've been thinking about, like, well, what do I actually 0:10:41.796 --> 0:10:43.916 think about the fact that Grete Gerwork's not a Best 0:10:43.956 --> 0:10:47.276 Director nominee having watched the movie like three days. 0:10:47.076 --> 0:10:48.316 Ago, And what do you think? 0:10:48.596 --> 0:10:51.156 Oh? I mean, first of all, I think that Barbie 0:10:51.436 --> 0:10:55.196 is extremely well made. It's so well made in some 0:10:55.236 --> 0:10:58.036 ways that you kind of can't believe that the things 0:10:58.076 --> 0:11:00.116 that are interesting about it are even in the movie. 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:04.476 There are avant garde sequences in this movie. There are 0:11:04.596 --> 0:11:08.396 things that come out of beach movies from the sixties 0:11:08.436 --> 0:11:11.196 and John Water, and I mean, they are all kinds 0:11:11.236 --> 0:11:16.756 of influences being pulled from here in a movie that 0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:20.556 is very funny. There's a line I don't know at 0:11:20.556 --> 0:11:22.676 some point she wants up in the boardroom. I don't 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:25.676 know who's speaking, but at some point the lowly guy 0:11:25.796 --> 0:11:28.396 who is the only person who is a free thinker 0:11:28.596 --> 0:11:30.556 in the in the in the Land of Suits doesn't 0:11:30.596 --> 0:11:32.116 even have a suit. I think he's in a vest 0:11:32.196 --> 0:11:34.596 or a sweater. He's like, I'm a man with no power. 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:38.476 Does that make me a woman? And he meekly asks it. 0:11:38.516 --> 0:11:41.396 I just think that line is really funny. There's I mean, 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:46.036 the speech that the America Ferrara's speech is really good. 0:11:46.636 --> 0:11:49.276 I think that the big problem with the movie, in 0:11:49.316 --> 0:11:53.796 a weird way, it's that Ken Ryan Gosling as Ken 0:11:54.756 --> 0:11:58.516 Is is too good, and it's hard in some ways 0:11:58.556 --> 0:12:02.316 to not see past what he's doing because it's just 0:12:02.356 --> 0:12:07.596 so much better and richer and more shaded. There's something 0:12:07.716 --> 0:12:12.716 underneath that person he's playing, something like he's tapping into 0:12:12.756 --> 0:12:16.836 it to a pain that's not dissimilar, or or like 0:12:16.876 --> 0:12:20.436 an aspect of being a particular kind of human that 0:12:20.596 --> 0:12:23.316 is not dissimilar from what Margot Robbie is finding and 0:12:23.356 --> 0:12:26.276 she's got like two really good scenes where she's connecting 0:12:26.636 --> 0:12:30.396 her dullness, that the character's dullness to the character's humanists. 0:12:30.676 --> 0:12:33.716 But the problem with the Ken thing is that, like 0:12:33.876 --> 0:12:37.796 the keenness kind of overwhelms the Barbinus in a particular way, 0:12:38.076 --> 0:12:41.836 but not the sort of politics of the movie itself. Right, 0:12:42.276 --> 0:12:48.156 the movie's politics are completely intact and very coherent and 0:12:48.876 --> 0:12:52.996 legible and funny and right in so many ways. I mean, Okay, 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:56.596 they're bald, they're a little bit blatant, but there's so 0:12:56.756 --> 0:12:59.116 much humor to be had. I watched Nine to five 0:12:59.676 --> 0:13:04.996 and it's so funny those movies. You could play Barbie 0:13:04.996 --> 0:13:08.556 in nine to five movies that are twenty Sorry, forty 0:13:08.596 --> 0:13:12.556 four years is a part and nothing really would have 0:13:12.676 --> 0:13:15.916 changed about them except how much better the filmmaking is. 0:13:18.076 --> 0:13:20.756 It sounds like you and Hillary are on the same 0:13:20.796 --> 0:13:21.636 side of history. 0:13:22.396 --> 0:13:25.556 No, because I mean, I don't think that it's a 0:13:25.636 --> 0:13:29.796 crime what happened to her. Right, there are nine thousand 0:13:30.516 --> 0:13:35.396 something voting members in the Academy. They don't nominate the individual. 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:39.676 The guilds nominate each other. Right, The craft categories nominate 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:43.436 each other. So nine thousand people don't have a say 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:47.356 and whether Greg Gurrigg is the Best Director nominee five 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:51.316 hundred and maybe sixty or eighty something people do, and 0:13:51.876 --> 0:13:56.476 they don't really care to see the achievement of what 0:13:56.516 --> 0:13:58.516 it is that she managed to do. I mean, just 0:13:58.556 --> 0:14:01.196 the colors alone, I don't like if you look at 0:14:01.236 --> 0:14:03.556 the color palette of the five Best Picture of the 0:14:03.596 --> 0:14:08.476 Best Director nominees movies, I mean, hers is the one 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:11.036 that you know came from a candy shop, And even 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:15.556 that alone is probably a deterrent for an entire class 0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:22.236 of director's branch member. It isn't explicitly her being a woman, 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:27.196 but it's her interests as a woman that are kind 0:14:27.196 --> 0:14:28.916 of alien. I mean, she should have been nominated for 0:14:28.916 --> 0:14:32.036 Little Women, and it wasn't. But you know, this is her, 0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:35.196 like all three of her movies have been Best Picture nominees, 0:14:35.276 --> 0:14:36.996 as all three of her movies as a director have 0:14:36.996 --> 0:14:40.396 been Best Picture nominees, and they've all been screenplay nominees. 0:14:40.436 --> 0:14:43.956 She'll probably win. She and NOELH. Bambach will probably win 0:14:44.836 --> 0:14:48.636 in the in the adapted in the hilarious adapted screenplay category. 0:14:48.676 --> 0:14:51.076 I don't know what this movie's adapted from. 0:14:51.116 --> 0:14:54.196 When we look at these ten films nominated and how 0:14:54.236 --> 0:14:56.916 they are, as you say, an x ray of the industry. 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:01.356 I wonder if we can't divide the list into three groups, 0:15:01.476 --> 0:15:04.596 because the first one to me are historical dramas that 0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:07.196 have arrived at the right place and the right time 0:15:07.836 --> 0:15:10.236 and speak to the country we live in and the 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:14.036 politics of the moment. Those are Oppenheimer by Christopher Nolan, 0:15:14.236 --> 0:15:17.796 Killers of Flower Moon by Scorsese, and Zone of Interest 0:15:18.196 --> 0:15:23.236 by Jonathan Glazer. Oppenheimer is the prohibitive favorite. But what 0:15:23.476 --> 0:15:25.876 in that cluster stands out to you? 0:15:26.476 --> 0:15:29.636 I mean, it's funny. I think all these movies operate, 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:33.996 I should say, in different moods. Alphabetically. We'll start with 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:36.476 Killers of the Flower Moon. I think Killers of Flower 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:40.956 Moon is a perversely effective movie. It's a weird movie 0:15:40.956 --> 0:15:43.956 for more in Scorsese, because it's not a lot of 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:48.196 his priorities aren't apparent. A lot of his typical priorities 0:15:48.196 --> 0:15:51.316 aren't parent orlthough they're not four grounded in this movie. 0:15:51.436 --> 0:15:54.316 He's not interested in acting here. It's one of the 0:15:54.396 --> 0:15:58.036 rare instances to me in which his interest in acting 0:15:58.076 --> 0:16:02.676 and actors is kind of secondary to the politics and 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:06.596 the sort of thematic urgency of what it is he's 0:16:06.636 --> 0:16:10.476 trying to do. I am not surprised that Lenardo DiCaprio 0:16:10.796 --> 0:16:13.116 is not a Best Actor nominee. For instance, if we're 0:16:13.116 --> 0:16:15.676 going to keep this in the realm of the Academy Awards, 0:16:16.356 --> 0:16:20.956 this is maybe his least convincing performance of the of 0:16:21.116 --> 0:16:24.316 you know, all the ones he's given in Scorsese movies alone. 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:28.236 This is an impossible part to play. He's playing a 0:16:28.276 --> 0:16:33.236 truly stupid person who is also truly in love and 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:39.556 truly evil, easily duped into doing horrible things to people. 0:16:39.876 --> 0:16:42.116 On that I want to play a little bit of 0:16:42.156 --> 0:16:47.676 this clip featuring Leonardo DiCaprio and actress Lily Gladstone and 0:16:47.716 --> 0:16:49.996 the new film Killers of the Flower Mountain. 0:16:50.076 --> 0:16:55.356 Let's take a listen. Why did you come here for? 0:16:55.396 --> 0:16:55.476 What? 0:16:57.636 --> 0:16:58.316 To live here? 0:16:58.916 --> 0:16:59.116 Yes? 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:00.636 I'll live here? 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:04.676 Why? 0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:07.796 Oh? From my uncle. 0:17:09.156 --> 0:17:09.556 William? 0:17:14.396 --> 0:17:25.436 Your brother is Brian Byron. That's right, you're scared of him? 0:17:25.476 --> 0:17:25.996 My brother? 0:17:26.956 --> 0:17:28.596 Who your uncle? 0:17:32.276 --> 0:17:37.956 Well? No, oh, he's a He's a king of the 0:17:37.956 --> 0:17:38.916 o Sage heels. 0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:41.636 He's the nicest man. 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:44.196 In the world. I know if you cross him, what 0:17:44.276 --> 0:17:45.876 he can do mm hmm. 0:17:46.436 --> 0:17:46.476 No. 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:48.116 I'm my own man. 0:17:48.116 --> 0:17:48.996 I do my own work. 0:17:50.476 --> 0:17:51.996 I'm a businessman. 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:57.716 In a weird way. The thing that sort of comes 0:17:57.796 --> 0:17:59.916 through in this movie to me is the thing that 0:18:00.516 --> 0:18:04.156 in reading January sixth reports really leapt out at me, 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:06.716 which is like all the people who stormed the capitol, 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:10.596 who were like, I don't know, oh, I was just 0:18:11.076 --> 0:18:16.476 following the crowd, and the crowd went up the steps 0:18:16.796 --> 0:18:20.396 and into the capitol, So I did. And this movie 0:18:20.676 --> 0:18:25.156 is really to me about so I did. It's people 0:18:25.276 --> 0:18:31.436 sort of betraying their own souls, selling their souls, I mean, 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:35.436 and really for nothing, honestly for nothing. I mean it's land, 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:39.476 but I mean there's land everywhere for oil. I mean, 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:41.476 I don't know, go find some oil with some land 0:18:41.476 --> 0:18:44.876 on it. I mean the movie is steeped in such 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:52.756 such incredible, vivid pettiness. But I would say, god, you know, 0:18:52.876 --> 0:18:56.956 I mean, I think that the Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer doesn't really 0:18:57.036 --> 0:18:59.676 interest me as a movie, And part of it is 0:19:00.116 --> 0:19:03.956 it doesn't really feel like it's living. I felt like 0:19:04.116 --> 0:19:08.156 Oppenheimer to me was a series of talking heads. The 0:19:08.236 --> 0:19:12.756 movie isn't really asking any questions. It's just recapitulating, and 0:19:12.916 --> 0:19:18.756 the recapitulation just never got me as filmmaking. I mean, 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:20.756 I don't know, I just sort of feel like the 0:19:21.116 --> 0:19:25.036 introduction of the communist end of things was way more, 0:19:25.956 --> 0:19:28.676 was more than the movie necessarily needed. And I feel 0:19:28.676 --> 0:19:30.836 like if you're gonna do that, you kind of have 0:19:30.956 --> 0:19:34.996 to make Oppenheimer more of who he actually was to 0:19:35.036 --> 0:19:37.596 the culture. I mean, there was a period during which 0:19:37.636 --> 0:19:41.596 he was an extremely famous American and lots of people 0:19:41.996 --> 0:19:45.396 admired the turn that he took away from the building 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:49.196 of the bomb and his outspokenness against it. So all 0:19:49.236 --> 0:19:53.116 the stuff with Lewis Strauss and the McCarthy hearings, I 0:19:53.196 --> 0:19:57.516 just feel like there's a bridge from the creation of 0:19:57.556 --> 0:20:01.516 the bomb to those hearings that's missing. And it can't 0:20:01.556 --> 0:20:06.316 be that it's Albert Einstein on the lawn with a pipe. 0:20:06.836 --> 0:20:08.436 I actually liked the film, but I mean, when you 0:20:08.476 --> 0:20:10.196 describe it like that, I don't even know how I 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:14.076 like it because I was moved by the Albert Einstein 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:15.196 with the pipe. 0:20:16.276 --> 0:20:19.236 Well, let's talk about that, Like what got you? What 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:22.316 I mean, I always what about the movie worked for you? 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:24.596 There's a lot that got Okay. I feel probably the 0:20:24.636 --> 0:20:27.836 same as you about him, which is it's pretty hit 0:20:27.916 --> 0:20:31.956 or miss and mileage varies. And I don't like the 0:20:31.996 --> 0:20:35.356 movies that seem to feel soulless, and I felt that 0:20:35.396 --> 0:20:38.316 this one did have a kind of beating heart, an 0:20:38.356 --> 0:20:42.436 emotion that I had not found in Dunkirk or Interstellar. 0:20:42.716 --> 0:20:45.516 Oh sure, none of those. So I was moved by it. 0:20:45.556 --> 0:20:48.596 But I want to ask you, because the second group 0:20:48.636 --> 0:20:52.516 that I had divided for us is Barbie and Maestro, 0:20:52.796 --> 0:20:58.676 both our actors turned directors. Both are making big, ambitious 0:20:58.716 --> 0:21:01.476 films that are kind of upending the genre that they're 0:21:01.516 --> 0:21:04.756 working in. Even in time. This week there was an 0:21:04.836 --> 0:21:08.836 article by Stephanie Zacharach titled Greta Gerwick, Bradley Cooper and 0:21:08.876 --> 0:21:13.956 This Strange Curse of Ambition. Do those two pictures feel 0:21:13.996 --> 0:21:14.476 linked to you? 0:21:15.196 --> 0:21:18.636 I feel like Maestro solves a lot of the problems 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:21.676 that I have with biographical movie making. I did not 0:21:21.876 --> 0:21:26.276 need a movie about Leonard Bernstein. But I think the 0:21:26.396 --> 0:21:29.156 reason that it works as well as it does is 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:32.716 because the movie really isn't about Leonard Bernstein. I mean, 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:35.036 let's just talk about the movie formally for a second. 0:21:35.076 --> 0:21:39.116 I mean, it spans time, there are shifts in aspect ratio, 0:21:39.196 --> 0:21:41.836 which if you do that, you know you have my heart. 0:21:41.916 --> 0:21:44.196 But it also is really I mean, the movie is 0:21:44.236 --> 0:21:46.436 being sold to us as being about a marriage, and 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:49.076 I don't really know if I mean, it's not about 0:21:49.116 --> 0:21:52.596 a marriage. It's about a man's behavior's effect on a 0:21:52.636 --> 0:21:59.876 marriage and all of its impulses. To avoid showing Leonard 0:21:59.876 --> 0:22:03.836 Bernstein really doing the thing that makes him one of 0:22:03.876 --> 0:22:08.036 the great Americans of the twentieth century, and to focus 0:22:08.116 --> 0:22:15.756 on his energy, his insatiable, unquenchable thirst for all kinds 0:22:15.796 --> 0:22:22.116 of things and people, his unembarrassability, and it's I guess 0:22:22.116 --> 0:22:26.316 it's shamelessness, his shamelessness. I don't know. I just love 0:22:26.756 --> 0:22:29.756 that It wasn't a love letter to Leonard Bernstein. It 0:22:29.796 --> 0:22:34.236 was a real portrait of an asshole, and the asshole 0:22:34.316 --> 0:22:37.996 happens to be a musical genius. But the movie isn't 0:22:37.996 --> 0:22:40.556 about what a musical genius it is. It's actually about 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:41.476 what an asshole he is. 0:22:41.676 --> 0:22:44.316 Definitely, it's definitely not about what a genius is. 0:22:44.516 --> 0:22:47.556 And I actually liked that, and in that way it 0:22:47.636 --> 0:22:50.756 kind of frees the movie to be whatever it is. 0:22:50.796 --> 0:22:53.596 The person who made it want it to be and 0:22:53.996 --> 0:22:56.796 I also feel that way. I mean, it's funny because 0:22:56.796 --> 0:22:59.076 now that you put me in this position, like I mean, 0:22:59.396 --> 0:23:03.196 I think Barbie is also doing a similar thing. Where 0:23:03.596 --> 0:23:06.676 at no point in watching it, although at every moment 0:23:06.876 --> 0:23:09.756 up until the point I actually saw the movie, did 0:23:09.796 --> 0:23:14.876 I think that Greta Gerwig was beholden to Mattel and 0:23:15.076 --> 0:23:19.716 doing its bidding. She clearly had thought about had had 0:23:19.756 --> 0:23:24.076 some connection to not only the dolls, but like the 0:23:24.156 --> 0:23:29.756 politics of girlhood itself and the politics of the evolution 0:23:29.996 --> 0:23:33.596 of girlhood into womanhood. I think that there is such 0:23:33.636 --> 0:23:38.236 a struggle happening in that movie that's about living with 0:23:38.676 --> 0:23:44.876 the capitalist impulse to own, consume, buy things that are 0:23:44.916 --> 0:23:48.916 not in your political or in some cases onto logical 0:23:48.996 --> 0:23:55.996 self interest, things that are designed to oppress, dehumanize, demotivate, 0:23:56.756 --> 0:23:59.276 even when you start putting glasses on them in lab 0:23:59.316 --> 0:24:02.516 coats and give them clipboards and stuff. I don't know. 0:24:02.556 --> 0:24:06.676 There's a real conflict here about what it means to 0:24:06.716 --> 0:24:10.476 have a consumerist girlhood. And I thought it was so 0:24:10.556 --> 0:24:14.316 smart to invent the America fer Our character finding herself 0:24:14.476 --> 0:24:20.156 estranged from her daughter. There's so many layers of conflict 0:24:20.236 --> 0:24:25.276 here that are sort of Barbie adjacent but entirely human. 0:24:25.916 --> 0:24:28.156 Part of the reason that, like, you know, if you're 0:24:28.236 --> 0:24:32.796 some serious filmmaker from Japan or I don't know, some 0:24:32.876 --> 0:24:35.556 other part of the world and you are looking at 0:24:35.556 --> 0:24:37.716 this movie and you like have to say the words 0:24:37.756 --> 0:24:41.196 Barbie Land, I can see you being like, I don't 0:24:41.276 --> 0:24:46.156 know whose movie really is this, but to me, it 0:24:46.276 --> 0:24:50.236 is entirely Greta Gerwig's. I mean, it's like this movie 0:24:50.276 --> 0:24:52.716 is of a piece with Ladybird and little Women, and 0:24:52.756 --> 0:24:57.116 they're all dealing with the same themes of girls and 0:24:57.236 --> 0:25:02.636 mothers and cummings of age of various sorts, the arrival 0:25:02.756 --> 0:25:06.756