WEBVTT - Golf Architecture and Life with Mike Koprowski 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.920 And when I find my ball in a fried. 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:10.559 Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday Frida Egg Egg, 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.360 fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:39.640 The Welcome back to another edition of the Friday eg 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.639 Golf Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson. Today I have 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.280 a really fun interview. I talked with Mike Koprowski. Most 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:50.639 of you probably are not going to know the name 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.240 Mike Koprowski. He is an up and coming golf architect. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.360 He got into the industry. 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:57.680 Late in life. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.280 A unique road to his life as a golf architect. 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.679 He's been working with Kyle Franz. He mostly worked for 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:11.919 Kyle Franz until this project called Broomsedge, a new golf 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.800 course that's near Columbia, South Carolina, where he had the 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.280 unique situation of being an owner as well as a 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.600 golf course architect on it. So it is a co 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.920 design between him and Kyle Franz. I would say, you know, 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.560 in terms of co design, probably more of a Mike 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:33.399 Koprowski design than a Kyle Franz Design. You know, all 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.640 these projects have a little bit different share of designers. 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:42.000 That's my personal opinion. It's subjective who could be the 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.000 designer a co designer. But this was a really, really 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:50.000 fun conversation with Mike about Broomsedge, his life, which is 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.640 very unique, not a lot of golf architects, with his background, 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.840 his road to being a golf architect. I think it's 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:02.560 super relatable for people that have worked a myriad of 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.919 jobs in their lives and at some point thought about 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.960 being a golf course architect. So this was super fun. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.600 I hope you guys enjoy it. Before we get to Mike, 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.640 let's talk about our partner, Club Champion. Club Champion's been 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.600 our partner for a while, and why they are a 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.800 partner of ours is that I really believe in their product. 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.480 It's the best way to have partnerships. I have been 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.880 going to Club Champion basically my entire life. They started 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.440 in Chicago. I was a customer very very early on. 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:40.200 They were like very early in the fitting of golf clubs. 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.280 This was when I was in kind of high school 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.880 and college and playing competitive golf. They have remained on 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:52.000 the cutting edge of golf fittings, golf club fittings. They 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.399 have one hundred and twenty plus studios now nationwide. It's 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.960 a really cool story of going from one studio to 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.240 one hundred and twenty plus nationwide. 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Or 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.360 it's one hundred dollars full bag fitting or fifty dollars 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.000 for any other fitting type with a club purchase. This 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:50.120 is a great holiday gift for a loved one that 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:54.400 is into golf. It is a go to Club Champion 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.560 dot com, use the promo code Frida Egg and you'll 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.200 get one hundred dollars full bag fitting or fit fifty 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.040 dollars for any other fitting type with a club purchase 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:13.120 thanks to the club Champion. All Right, I SEEC fans 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:17.280 always always refer to Columbia, South Carolina as the hottest 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:18.080 place on earth? 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:20.360 Is that true? 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:25.000 Pretty toasty? Yeah, it's pretty It's pretty toasty in the summer. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.120 It's because there's no wind that just sits in like 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.799 a it sits in a bowl. So uh, but winter, 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:32.120 spring and fall a pretty. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:36.040 Dark nice it is. What I was there was really delightful. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:36.440 It was. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:37.919 It was quite nice. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.240 What you know, how did you go about finding the 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.360 site to build this golf course? Like, you know, you're 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.480 you're out looking for land, you decide you want to 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.080 you want to build a golf course. What was your 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.400 process for determining where you wanted to build a golf course? 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:58.400 Yeah? 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:00.559 Well I always felt like there was this miss link 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.960 between Pinehurst and Acon. You know, you got these the 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.960 Carolina sand hills that stretch from North Carolina through South 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.800 Carolina down into down into Georgia. We all know about 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.440 the great golf that's in Pinehurst. We all know about 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:18.400 the great golf that's in Aiken, But like east of Columbia, 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.520 Columbia area, same soils that Pinehurst is sitting on, but 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.760 kind of a dearth of great golf, and so that 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.440 had always been kind of in the back of my mind. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.360 So I had first honed in on that area. I mean, 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:34.599 I knew I wanted, you know, sand hills topography where 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.599 we really weren't going to have to move much earth, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.400 just kind of you know, lay the land type type design. 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.560 You know, you're always looking for ease of access. So 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.159 this particular piece of land that I found was four 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.120 minutes off of I twenty. You're looking for access to 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:55.160 three phase power somewhere nearby. So when you start to 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.320 kind of you know, winnow down your checklist, you know, 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.520 there's only a few, you know, there's only a few 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.800 parcels that that really kind of stand out to you. 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.559 And so I kind of had a geography set from 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.760 Columbia to kind of like the North Carolina South Carolina 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.320 state line. That stretch of sandhills right there kind of 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.040 ends in kind of Chesterfield County ish, and so I 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.920 had honed in on that, contacted a land broker, looked 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.160 at stuff that was on market. Also, you know, had 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.919 had the land broker put out fields to things that 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:33.560 were off market and probably looked at, you know, thirty 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:38.640 different parcels, and you know, at that point, once you 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.080 kind of hit all the checklist pieces, at that point, 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.160 it's just kind of a gut type feel when you 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.240 walk the land and it just it's got to it's 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.400 got to do something to you emotionally. 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.160 You got to just feel it, and it was It was. 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.240 Often challenging because a lot of the a lot of 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.719 the parcels that I looked at were just they were timber. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:01.320 You coudn't see five feet in front of your face. 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.719 It was just stacked with trees and jungle. And so 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.159 thank goodness for modern topographic maps because that really helped 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.560 kind of helped me understand what the lay of the 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:13.840 land was, even though I couldn't, you know, quite see 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.280 it with my eyes. I could feel it with my feet, 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:16.680 but I couldn't see it with my eyes. And that 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.920 was so Ultimately, the piece of land that I settled 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.320 on for broom Sedge was sort of heads and tails 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.520 above the other parcels, and I think that that was 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.280 a key the key thing that I did right. Plenty 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:31.200 of shit I did wrong, but one of the key 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.480 things I did right was patience that you know, you're 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.920 you're kind of you're eager to get this going, and 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.280 you know that that first, you know, that first parcel 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:40.760 that you look at where it checks all the boxes, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:42.040 you just kind of want to jump because you could 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.680 see good holes everywhere, but I really want to make 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.720 sure that it felt like a ten out of ten 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.920 and that there was just you know, something emotional happened 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.760 when I got on the land and this this one 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.840 blew it out of the water, and I'm glad I waited. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:55.880 You know, I think it was eight or nine months 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.520 into the process until I really found something that I 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.080 knew without a doubt would would be it could be 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:02.080 a great golf course. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:08.080 The patient's aspect of it, if you could, you know, 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.720 the first piece of land that you saw that you 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:11.480 felt like. 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:14.640 Was really a good fit. 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.720 You know, you have access to a road, access to 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.720 water power. You know, you check like these are things 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.360 that like a lot of people don't think about, right, 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:25.880 so that checks the box. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.240 You see golf holes. 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.280 What what what's the difference between what the site you 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.000 chose where Broomsedge is now to that, Like, what's the 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.720 intangibles that the site that you chose over that had 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.680 and you know when you think back to if you 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:44.760 had built on that site, like, what, how do you 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:45.680 think they would be different? 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:46.280 Yeah? 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:51.640 Yeah, I this land moved in different ways. It moved 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:56.560 in weirder ways, in sort of non predictable ways. You know, 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.479 the sand hills are known for sort of their rolling topography, 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.040 but oftentimes you can get kind of the similar role 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.040 over and over again. And yeah, I mean you can 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.200 have you know, a diverse routing that moves in different directions, 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:12.920 but you're still navigating relatively similar to rain. And so 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.199 you know, I was really looking for something that just 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:20.360 felt like it was randomly converging in weird ways, and 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.240 this had it in spades. Was there were spines, there 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.920 were valleys, there were ridge lines. There was a weird 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.559 like half pipe chasm that we ended up routing the 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:34.400 eighth hole through. There were some parts of it that 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.839 were relatively tame and gentle, like the seventeenth hole that 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:40.920 kind of remind you of Number two, where you can 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.320 just have you know, vast exposed sand and it's not 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:45.920 going to wash and it's nice and flat. But then 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.800 there were other parts that were like you know, shore 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.080 acres type stuff where you were going way down in 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.959 a valley, and there were all these like different micro 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.959 environments to the site as well. So it just felt 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:58.840 like I think, if we were going to pursue this 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.400 this project, it needed to feel different than than a 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.240 lot of the other things that have been built in 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.080 the in the sand Hills. And I think it was 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:10.280 really down to the uniqueness of the land movement. 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.280 I feel like a word you could use to describe 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.319 a lot of it is like rambunctious. 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:17.720 Yeah, you know. 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.319 And if I think like a lot of people would 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.040 think like, okay, like this is you know, look at 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.920 this like consistent role. But then you get a lot 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.400 of holes that feel similar. But if you're if the 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:33.160 land is, you could describe it as rambunctious. It it 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.600 creates so much differentiation from hole to hole, and you 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.280 don't like, I think like land people, I don't think 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.120 that's necessarily something people think of when it's like, God, 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.760 all the holes felt the same, and it's like, well, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.199 maybe you're just playing ridged ridge holes all day, you know. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:50.840 Yep. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:56.200 You have to have that differentiation in topographical interests to 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.320 have like a very compelling site. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.960 And I think, what go for it? 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.360 Yeah, I mean, I think another way to maybe put 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.520 that is you don't know what the hell's coming next, 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.840 Like I mean, think of like our seventh hole to 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.880 our eighth hole. Like seven is a pretty gentle you know, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.839 uphill par four across pretty gentle terrain with kind of 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.840 a push up number two eight type green with Falloway edges, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.439 and you stand on that green and it just has 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.320 a has a certain feel to it. You don't really 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.240 know what's coming next. You can't even see the eighth 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:30.920 hole because it's through that deep chasm in the land. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.600 And then you walk over to eight and it's like, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.840 where did this come from? How did this naturally occur? 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.240 Like I don't I don't understand how we just went 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.960 from that to that in the course of one hole. 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.439 There's not a there's not a steady progression of change 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.360 in the land. You don't see it coming. It just 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.760 like smacks you. And I think it keeps things interesting 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.800 and fresh. And and the way that the routing goes 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.000 is that it kind of goes back and forth with 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.040 that rhythm is you'll get some sequence of tame and 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.000 then you'll say in the world that this come from. 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:08.120 Yeah, I totally agree with that. Like it it's and 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.199 it just, yeah, the way it moves through, like there 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.320 are like breaks. And one of the things that stood 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:19.200 out to me about about this site and this course 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.319 versus a lot of other golf courses that have been 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.240 built in the same time period, it felt like a 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:27.520 little bit more intimate. 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:29.120 It feel. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.520 It feels I'm not sure the exact acreage on it, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.400 but it feels way small, like a way smaller site 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.760 than most modern golf courses go for. And I think 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.360 like one thing I had to question about was, you 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:49.360 know what with smaller acreage, I don't think you had 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.840 four hundred acres right, what is it now? 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:53.840 It's like what two fifty ish? 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.760 Well, we expanded the two fifty, but at the original 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.960 when I originally purchased it, it was only one ninety seven. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.880 Some of that was was wetlands areas that we weren't 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.800 even gonna mess with. So the actual area that we 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.480 had to work with was was pretty small. I think 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:14.319 the golf course routing right now sits on like one sixty. 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.720 So I think like in terms of like a lot 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.520 of modern new developments, they're looking for three point fifty 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:27.520 four hundred acres and you know, that's great. Having space 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.120 is amazing, But what ends up happening is the golf 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.120 always feels kind of expansive. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.839 There's like you traverse a lot of land. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:40.360 One of the things I loved about about your site 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.600 was it was so small that it felt very old 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.559 school in the sense of it was like the sequencing 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.800 of the holes just like you just kind of. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:49.920 Fly through the routing. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:56.080 What challenges did that present, being such a small golfable site. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.000 Yeah, it was, you know. The so. 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.960 I had a routing before I even put in a 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.160 purchase or before I even put in an offer on it, 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.800 because I was concerned about that very thing that when 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:12.080 you have such a small site, the routing kind of 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:13.160 needs to work perfectly. 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:14.559 If you run in. 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.320 Any spots where you get stuck, there's not a lot 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.280 of area to play with. There's no room for sprawl. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.160 You can't just go out in a different direction and 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.880 find better land. So it really needed to work, and 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.160 that was that was one of the primary concerns when 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.640 I looked at this site. Was not a lot of 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:33.520 room to work with here, and so routed, you know, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:35.320 did a routing. I didn't know if it would be 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.400 the routing, but did a routing felt like it would 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.000 be really, really, really good, and at least I had 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.320 some confidence there that, Okay, I feel like this is 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.080 a this is a really good golf course right here. 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.720 I don't know if it'll be the routing, but I'm 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:49.520 confident that we can do something great on this site 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.600 because the land just just moves in a certain way 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.600 or it all kind of works. And then, you know, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.040 Kyle and I spent I don't know, six months doing 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.160 different routings. We probably ended up like twenty two diferent 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.760 routing scenarios, and then ultimately the one that we landed 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.800 on was pretty close to the original one that I 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.080 did just on the back of a napkin. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:07.440 We changed a few things. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.080 We changed like the fifth hole and the eleventh hole. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:11.680 We just changed in the field, So the eleventh hole 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.560 isn't isn't even the same as what's on our master plan. 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.080 So I think that was a key thing. I was 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.760 not convinced that this would be a great site until 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.680 we could do the routing. It just needed to it 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.480 needed to fall into place, and that meant no sort 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:31.880 of unworkable topography. And I think that having that having 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.240 that constraint really led to a lot of kind of 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.600 innovation and I think led to better holes. And I 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.440 think that that's kind of the that's the counterintuitive part 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.440 of this is that sometimes you actually can build a 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.320 better golf course on two hundred acres than you can 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.400 on four hundreds. Size is not an unequivocal good that 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.280 sometimes when you have the space, you can sort of 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.120 go out in search of you a certain land form, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.120 but really there's a trade off there and that you're 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.400 sprawling in kind of a direction that the kind of 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.520 disassociate that hole from all the others. We had a 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:06.080 lot of constraints on this, and so I mean that 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.960 there's a really we have two boundary line holes, which 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.120 I think are two of the best holes on the property, 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.400 just an old classic link style boundary hole on four 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.240 and drivable part four on fifteen, where it's just a 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.080 simple strategy. It's a linear boundary line and you know, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.320 the line of charm is you know, the closer you 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.160 get to the boundary line, the better your angle is 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.880 into the green. And those are like great, great holes, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.920 two of my favorites owned property. I don't know if 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.000 we do that if we're on one hundred and you know, 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.120 if we're on five hundred acres, I don't know that 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.400 we do that. So the constraints I think actually we're 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:39.000 a benefit. 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.200 I think like a great example of a constraint, like, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.120 you know, this small property, you don't have a lot 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:47.280 of routing. 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.160 Options in certain parts. In certain parts of the property. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.880 It is like we get over here, it's a small property, 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.680 we have to fit this many holes in this section. 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.800 A great example for anybody that gets out there is 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.439 the first four holes, yep, where you know, your first 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.240 five holes sit on a very kind of like narrow, 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.880 rectangular piece of ground. And I don't think anyone would 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.080 set out to build a golf course and be like, 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:16.760 you know what, we're going to go back and forth 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.520 the first four holes, so you go out back, out back, 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:25.080 and but they like at least have a really diverse 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.080 set and when we talk about land rambunctious that they 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:33.480 have an extremely diverse set of landforms in that out 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.680 and back that make it work. Two holes that play 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.360 in opposite directions play up on the ridges, one has 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.080 a boundary line, one doesn't. And then two holes play 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.280 in the valley, but one has a giant landform in 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.680 the middle of it, and it works really Like from 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.960 that sense, it works really well because there's diversity those holes, 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.919 Like it makes for a really thrilling and like an 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.439 ass kicker start. They are hard golf cours, like it 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.439 makes an impression on you. But like that, if you 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.360 had a sprawling site, a big site, I can't imagine 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.920 that you'd ever have the first four holes playing back 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:07.359 and forth. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:08.040 No. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.320 No, I mean we had a lot of feedback of well, 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:11.760 you can't run four holes parallel. 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:12.399 Well why not? 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.200 The topography is so different. I mean, hell, you can't 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.200 even see the second hole from the first hole. They're 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.320 running parallel, and you don't even know the second holes 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.399 there when you look across the valley, you're looking at 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.160 the third hole. You can't even see the second hole 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.280 because it's so low in the valley. So I mean, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.920 had the and this goes back to our rambunctious conversation, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.320 had the landforms been similar, then I do think it's 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.040 a problem, you know, of routing the same stuff back 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.080 and forth. But because the topography was so different, it 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.359 really didn't concern us all that much. And the other 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:45.359 thing too, is, you know, routing, it's all about trade offs. 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.960 When you have, you know, a small site. So I 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.439 mean in that first five holes. There's different ways to 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.080 do that routing, Like you can have a hole that 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.240 kind of cuts across the valley, your place diagonal to 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:00.399 the valley. And we had plenty of routings where we 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.679 we tried that. We experimented with it, like what if 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.359 we only have three holes in this valley or in 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.080 this in the section of property. And what we found 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.040 is you pay the piper later on in the routing 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.159 that if you don't get five solid holes in this 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.560 section of the property, You're you're gonna have a shitty 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.720 hole later in the later in the round. It's just 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.239 gonna happen. And so you were kind of, you know, 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.480 you were deferring the inevitable. And so we realized after 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.000 all these routings that like, yeah, you need five, you 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.480 need five strong holes, and we had five strong holes 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:33.960 in that section of the property, and any other attempt 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.240 to do it differently, you'd pay later on with the 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.440 week hole or maybe two week holes. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.439 I think like when I when I've I've gotten a 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.000 couple weeks to think about the the property, what or 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.040 just the whole project, Like I think my favorite thing 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.919 about the project is the small site is the like 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:54.840 when I think about the round, it felt like I 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.040 was like flying through it, which I think is something 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.439 that like is rare with modern golf courses where you 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.919 feel like you you are just like the rounds going quick. 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.520 And I just I think I like the idea of 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.159 you know, it's kind of become the gospel that you 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.160 need this massive property to build a golf course. It's 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.320 still a big property, but you do not like we don't. 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.920 It doesn't The standard doesn't have to be you need 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.639 four hundred acres to build a golf course. And I 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.200 think that's a bad standard for golf courses when we 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.760 look at the next thirty years of golf, like, there 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.880 has to be smaller, smaller site golf courses. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.280 Yeah, and it's it's an expensive proposition too. If you 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.800 believe that you need that, I mean, you know, you know, 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.760 and even still, I mean, broomsts can stress to seventy 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.960 five hundred yards. I mean we can, you know, we 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.440 can test the best if you will. But the other 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.480 constraint that's that's worth noting here is that I bought 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.600 this land with an agricultural loan. Is just a poorschemuck. 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.840 So I didn't have the money to buy four five hundred, 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.280 six hundred acres. Like my My price point was like, 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.560 we needed a piece of land that was, you know, 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.919 just big enough for a great golf course and nothing 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.440 more soaking wet. It needed to be what it needed 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:12.240 to be because I just I couldn't take out a 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.800 bigger loan than that. So another constraint that I think 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:17.600 led to a better product in the end. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:19.239 Well, I wanted to get to that. 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.359 I wanted to get to your winding path to being 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.560 a golf course architect and golf developer. I mean, you've 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.080 got two great distinctions in a matter of a couple 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:30.600 of years. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:32.240 But you know your. 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:38.399 Career, your list of academic achievements are, it's just a 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:43.119 very very interesting story to get it to where you 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.919 are today and what you're doing today. So your life, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.760 I would say, fifteen years ago, what did your life 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.240 look like at that point? 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.120 Fifteen? What was fifteen years ago? 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.879 Say, I don't know now, so that's twenty five. So 0:21:58.920 --> 0:21:59.680 I was in the Air Force. 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:05.200 Yeah, that's what it was about. As far from. 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.720 Actually yeah, I actually think oddly enough, fifteen years ago 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.000 on this day was that was that two. 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.720 Thousand and nine. Yeah, two thousand I was in Afghanistan. 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:17.520 That's where I was fifteen years ago. 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.840 Yeah, it's been weird, but man, it's it's been a 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:23.000 it's been a hell of a ride. 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:23.280 I guess. 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.399 I'm just I don't know what I want to do 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.199 when I grow up, and I hope that I still 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:28.920 never do. 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:30.480 I don't know. 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.080 This is what I tell people all the time, like younger, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:36.400 younger people all the time, like, you know, they get 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.320 obsessed with like what I'm doing. It's like life's a 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.399 winding road and every every decision will lead you to 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.240 a different endpoint. And it's like, you know, I think 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:49.480 that's the like the amazing thing I think. You know, 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:51.960 it's so easy to when you get to middle age 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.600 to think back to different moments and be like, oh, 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:57.200 you know, and it's like, well, like if I had 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:58.200 done that, like. 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:00.199 I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now. 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.280 And you know, you wouldn't have Like if you had 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.080 done something differently, you probably are not not being here 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:05.400 with a. 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.240 Golf course at the totaloint of your life. 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.840 No, let's let's get so you you were, you played 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.560 high school golf, you were a golf not where'd you 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:15.000 grow up? 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.720 Grew up in South Florida, not a lot of great 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:22.679 golf courses. I grew up playing between the palms and 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.040 the condos and the lakes. That was That was my 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.080 golf experience. And then really my my first kind of 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:31.479 eye opening event was when my dad took me up 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.000 to TPC saw Grass and I'm like, oh, this is 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.439 this is different than no offense to my home course. 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.160 I love it, but this is different than premierk Lakes 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:44.120 Country Club. You know, when I started asking myself, why 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.760 do I like this better than that? I mean extensively, 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.080 I'm hitting the same white ball into the same hole. 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:51.840 Why do I feel so much different when I play 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.760 Sawgrass as opposed to Premper Lakes? And so I got 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.200 Pete Diyes what was it called? Bury me in a 0:23:57.240 --> 0:23:58.800 pop bunker? I mean, I was, I was a young 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.040 kid at this stage, and I I got the bug immediately. 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.919 And I was always fascinated with this question of what 0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:06.040 makes one golf course better than the other. And it 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.560 was something that I mean, it was a hobby for 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.080 for a long long time. I had read all the books, 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:14.600 I had traveled extensively and thought a lot about you know, 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:16.479 what makes one better than the other. And so this 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.280 is all happening, you know, through high school and then 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.440 I you know, went off to college, and then I 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:24.239 I was in the Air Force for a while, and 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:29.560 then I did education reform, and then I did housing reform, 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:30.160 and then I. 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:31.520 Was in d C. 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.280 Working at a think tank, banging my head against the wall, 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:39.520 working with Congress, and we had a We were living 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.199 in d C, but there were some family circumstances that 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:45.879 caused us to move closer to my dad, who was 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:48.439 retired in Pinehurst. It wasn't a heart cell for me. 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:50.200 I mean, it's like, oh, okay, we're gonna go to Pineherst. 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:52.320 So I was I was working remotely in d C 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:57.119 from Pinehurst, and I emailed Kyle friends and the Southern 0:24:57.160 --> 0:25:00.720 Pines project was just kicking off, and it was just 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:02.600 kind of one of those midlife moments of like, yeah, 0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:04.240 what the hell, Maybe he'll let me like ride around 0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:05.800 in a golf cart and see how this works. I 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:07.760 don't know, it'd be cool. And so we had lunch 0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:09.880 together and I'm like, you know, can I just kind 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:11.600 of like hang out and watch I'll go take a 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:14.480 hole or something. If you need me to, you don't 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:16.359 have to pay me or anything, just like kind of 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:19.320 let me hang out. And he's and he's like, yeah, 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:21.720 the hell with that, Like let's get you in a machine. 0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:25.400 Let's let's see what you can do. So I started 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:28.280 like probing the greens to see where Ross had the 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:30.639 original perimeters. And I'm out there with a stake, like 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:33.600 probing through the ground seeing if I could feel gravel, 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:35.400 and then I'm drawing it up and we're talking about 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:38.840 kind of green concepts. And I felt like I always 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:41.359 had a you know, I had a good design IQ, 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:43.320 but I didn't really know the mechanics with how you 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:46.600 do all this stuff. So just Yees started doing all that, 0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:48.960 and Kyle was you know, I mean, Kyle, to his 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:51.600 great credit, was not like, I mean, he welcome to 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:53.760 with open arms. He's like, you're an interesting guy. Let's 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:55.800 come on in and see what see what you got. 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:59.480 And I would go late afternoons after all the shapers 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:01.800 would leave. If I'd get an excavator and I'd walk 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:04.920 it over into the into the woods and I would 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:08.760 dig a hole and try to build a bunker and 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:10.920 just like learn how the machine worked and then i'd 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:12.639 I'd fill it back in and I'd try again the 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:14.960 next day until I could build something that looked somewhat 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.159 like a bunker. And then I shaped the bunker on 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:18.880 seven and. 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:19.920 It looked pretty good. 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:21.480 And then I kept going and I did one on 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:23.240 six and then you know, by the end of the project, 0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:26.679 I was you know, I was, I was shaping, and 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:30.119 then that led to uh what that least? So then 0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:32.919 it was eastward ho with Kyle, and then did some 0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:35.800 work on the practice facility at Raleigh Country Club and 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:42.200 then Luling and then Cabot Citrus Farms, and in that 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:45.240 in those couple of years, uh, you know, with Kyle, 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:48.320 uh did a lot of evaluating raw land for prospective 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:50.320 clients as well. Like a client would would reach out 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:51.760 and say, hey, what about this piece of land, and 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:54.200 so kind of learned what, you know, what to look 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:56.240 for in a particular site. I had a lot of 0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:59.920 topographic background as an intel officer in the Air Force. 0:26:59.920 --> 0:27:02.879 I was really good with a topographic map, so that helped. 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:04.440 So I kind of got dangerous. 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:07.520 I don't know, you just you know, you breathed through 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:11.600 a very interesting backstory here. So let's I want to 0:27:11.600 --> 0:27:14.840 dig in a little bit too, before you got into 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:16.359 the golf course industry. 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:18.600 Just exactly what you were doing. 0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:22.400 So you you play high school golf, you go to college, 0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:25.480 you join the ROTC, and then eventually you joined the 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:26.080 Air Force. 0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:26.600 Yep. 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:30.080 I would you say at this point, you're you're kind 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:32.320 of completely disconnected from the game of golfer? 0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.080 Were you still playing decretty much? 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:35.280 No? 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:36.800 I didn't play much. 0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:39.960 I would watch the Four Majors on TV, maybe play 0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:43.240 once or twice a year, and would read like one 0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:47.840 golf architecture book, you know, every every six months. And 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:49.240 that was like that was the extent of it. But 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:50.760 I wasn't playing that much. It was just it was 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:54.080 really busy. This was the time when Iraq and Afghanistan 0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:56.119 we're you know, in the a Circle of Hell, and 0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:59.520 it was just a really really busy time. So I 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:01.840 kind of will and then I just wasn't involved in 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:02.600 the game all that much. 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:04.920 And what were you doing for the Air Force? 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:08.840 I was an intel officer, So I was attached to 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:12.040 an F fifteen fighter squadron. 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:14.200 I was there. I was their intel officer. 0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:18.680 So uh yeah, I mean, and then and then we 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:21.320 went to Afghanistan with that with that squadron and in 0:28:21.400 --> 0:28:24.320 late two thousand and nine, and that basically meant a 0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:27.960 range of stuff where like mission planning and target analysis 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:29.679 and all that, all that sort of stuff. 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:33.080 Oh, let's focus on the pod. What was the best 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:34.879 part about being in Afghanistan? 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:41.640 Beautiful topography? I mean, oh, gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous. I mean 0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:43.640 I remember when it got uh you know, you'd have 0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:46.200 like the snow capped mountains, and it was just we 0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:51.120 were in kind of northern Afghanistan, near to Kabul and and. 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:53.360 It was just a gorgeous, gorgeous. 0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:54.760 I mean you it was like, man, this would be 0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:58.040 a great tourist spot if you know the tali Van 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:04.000 weren't you know here, And it was just it was beautiful, yeah, yeah, 0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:04.720 small if. 0:29:04.640 --> 0:29:06.680 Yeah, it was. It was just a. 0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:09.120 Gorgeous, gorgeous country. And the other thing that really stuck 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.400 with me with the Daffhan people. You know, they they 0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:16.040 worked on on site, they were mechanics, they worked on 0:29:16.240 --> 0:29:19.040 buses and you got to meet some of them, and 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:22.200 they were they wanted the same thing you and I want. 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:24.920 You know, they wanted their kid to be able to 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:28.400 go to go to school and safely, and they wanted 0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:33.280 the opportunity, and it was. They were very gracious, very 0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:37.360 gracious people, and they most people we worked. They didn't 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:41.960 want the Taliban there anymore than we did. And so yeah, 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:43.800 I just it was it was a good experience. I mean, 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:46.080 it's one of those experiences where it's like I would 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:48.120 never want to go back because it's it's war and 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:51.320 it sucks. But it was an experience that I would, 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:53.400 you know, all always cherished. 0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:56.800 You know, I've I've had a few. 0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:01.800 Things tossed by way of potential sites for golf in 0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:06.400 the Middle East, and there's some like crazy like sand 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:09.720 dunes on the ocean in the Middle East, like it 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:13.840 is not inconceivable that there is that there is great 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:17.000 golf there at some point, and you know. 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:18.480 Totally yeah. 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:20.240 I would look outside the base gates and you know, 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:23.880 I think you get a little little shelf green in there. 0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:26.680 I want, it's about one hundred and thirty yards, get 0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:28.920 a little shelf green in there. And Kabool, I think, 0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:31.920 at least at the time, had a nine hole course 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:34.400 that was you know, was dirt. But I don't know 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:37.400 if it's still there. But yeah, no, no, no, no, 0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:38.320 I never played it. 0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:42.560 That reminds me of I had said Laton on the podcast, 0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:45.840 who worked for Arnold Palmer designed. Yeah, yeah, his first 0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:48.720 project he went off to I think it was Kazakhs 0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:52.400 down really like gets hired by Arnold Palmers Design. 0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:54.560 They're like all right, yeah, you're going to. 0:30:56.160 --> 0:30:58.800 And he gets off the plane and there's like soldiers 0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:03.120 with oozy's and it's just like uh a K four sevens. 0:31:03.760 --> 0:31:07.320 But but yeah, I just have this image of you 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.120 at a in a in an army base with your 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:14.440 with your golf architecture book and the golf. 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:17.880 Looking out at the expanse. What would you say you 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:20.200 like a life full of experiences? 0:31:20.280 --> 0:31:20.440 Right? 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:23.600 Like what what was it about that job that that 0:31:23.680 --> 0:31:27.480 has helped you the most doing what you're doing now. 0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:34.240 On a very technical level, like g I S topographic 0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:38.840 type type work that came and that was very very 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:40.760 handy to be able to look at a topographic map 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:42.880 and know what the land is doing. 0:31:43.920 --> 0:31:48.080 Can you can you explain like how you were like 0:31:48.400 --> 0:31:51.720 in from the from the Air Force sense, you know, 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:56.640 with with your role there using topographics and like how 0:31:56.680 --> 0:31:59.840 were you using that? Like what were you doing that 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:02.680 that and made it really easy to look at it 0:32:02.760 --> 0:32:06.600 like I think, like for a layman who's like somebody 0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:10.600 sends somebody a topographic map and it's just like lines everywhere, 0:32:10.720 --> 0:32:15.239 It's like, what's going on? So like what were you 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:18.920 doing with that? In the Air force? That then made 0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:21.400 made it kind of a breeze for golf architecture. 0:32:21.600 --> 0:32:26.320 Yeah, essentially mission planning. So if there was a you know, 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:28.720 if there was a target we were we were looking at. 0:32:28.800 --> 0:32:30.840 You know, you'd look at a topographic map and you'd 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:33.000 have to see, oh, okay, well, if if the bomb 0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.280 comes in at this angle, it's actually going to hit 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:37.120 the mountain before it hits the bad guy because there's 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:38.480 a freaking mountain in the way. So we got to 0:32:38.480 --> 0:32:39.480 comm in from the other direction. 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:42.640 I mean, that's the re to see it until this 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:44.840 point right right. That type of stuff. 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:48.640 Yeah, and even even on like collateral collateral damage type stuff. 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:50.480 I mean, we went to great lengths to try to 0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:56.040 avoid civilian casualties. And you know, topography plays a role 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.120 there of Hey, if you know, if there's a blast 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:02.560 that happens in X spot, what's the topography doing between 0:33:02.760 --> 0:33:05.760 X spot and you know that village over there? You know, 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:09.360 is that village sitting downhill from where the you know, 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:11.560 where the explosion is going to happen. If so that's problem, 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:13.560 maybe there's a topographic feature in the way that will 0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:16.920 protect it. So it's all like I mean, it's being 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:19.000 able to read a topo map and being able to 0:33:19.080 --> 0:33:21.960 understand land contours is you know, it's it's life and 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:22.920 best stuff over there. 0:33:23.800 --> 0:33:27.280 So now instead of worrying about where, how to how 0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:30.760 a bomb might function in the land, you worry about 0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:35.320 how water might move and right exactly whether a slope's 0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:37.920 too severe for for a golf hole exactly. 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:39.880 I worry if a foe iron will stay on this 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:43.160 hillside or if it'll ejected over the green. Yeah, a 0:33:43.160 --> 0:33:45.360 little bit lower stakes, but a little bit more fun 0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:46.160 at the same time. 0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:51.800 So so after after the Air Force, you you you 0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:54.960 kind of breezed over this. You got into you you 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:58.080 went back to school. You got degrees from Duke and Harvard. 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:00.240 Yeah, yeah, and yep. 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.480 And what were they in and you got into government work? 0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:05.440 Yeah, I got it. 0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:13.239 Duke was for international relations and Harvard was education policy. 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:17.759 And what was the thought at this point, what am 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:19.120 I going to What am I going to do? 0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:22.839 What was I still had the GI Bill, and I 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:27.000 was just basically trying to postpone real life, just stay 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.399 in school. So I got the smartest board of different things. 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:34.000 But I wanted to go into education reform. I had 0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:36.360 started the Duke degree. I had started while I was 0:34:36.400 --> 0:34:39.560 in the Air Force, International relations, obvious connection there. When 0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:40.840 I got out of the Air Force, I had my 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:45.200 eye toward toward education policy. Education is important, it's our 0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:46.640 children's future, blah blah blah ah. 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:47.759 That stuff. I believe it. 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:53.600 And so so after Harvard, I went to Tennessee and 0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:57.200 worked on education reform there, and then went to Dallas 0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:01.080 and and worked on education reform there. Really my work 0:35:01.120 --> 0:35:05.759 in Dallas was on desegregation, trying to integrate schools. You know, 0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:09.959 here we are, you know, many many decades after Brown 0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:13.759 versus Board, and our schools are essentially as segregated as 0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:17.760 they were when Brown was decided. Our schools are still, 0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:21.000 you know, incredibly segregated by race and class, and it's 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:24.799 largely a function of housing patterns. There's no explicit laws 0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:26.200 anymore that say this is a white school and there 0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:28.279 is a black school. But in Dallas, that's how it 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:31.440 plays out because our neighborhoods are segregated, so work a 0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:34.719 lot on policies that would try to, you know, get 0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:38.319 kids from different socioeconomic backgrounds into the same classroom together. 0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:41.759 There's a whole bevy of research that shows that all 0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:45.480 kids perform better in school when they're learning in a 0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:46.240 diverse environment. 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:47.200 So that's what I worked on in Dowa. 0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:48.080 Makes sense. 0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:53.400 You also become like a more well rounded individual, you know, 0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:56.880 like you think about like I mean, as we're talking, like, 0:35:57.080 --> 0:36:00.520 you know, the more diverse your background and skills and 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:03.120 expertise are, the more likely you're going to come at 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:06.960 any kind of solution, any kind of situation with a 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:10.760 with a different mindset, which is beneficial in the world. 0:36:11.120 --> 0:36:13.520 Oh yeah, it's I mean, it's an essential skill set. 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:15.960 I mean, you could argue that many of the many 0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:18.640 of the ills we're dealing with today are because people 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:21.879 don't fundamentally understand each other and never have really had 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:26.120 a meaningful interaction with somebody that's different from them. I 0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:29.880 think a lot of the villainization we see in particularly 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:34.839 in politics today, is a root cause of that. So yeah, 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:37.919 I think it's essential for our civic health to get 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:40.839 you know, to get kids learning together, I mean third, 0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:44.360 and Marshall said once that, he said, how can our 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:47.000 children ever learn to live together if they don't learn together? 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.439 And yeah, I spent spent many years of my life 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:52.880 trying trying to solve that problem. 0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:55.960 At this point, has golf re entered your life? 0:36:56.800 --> 0:36:57.080 Yes? 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:03.399 Yes, so golf seriously re ent heard my life. When 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:08.160 I was in Tennessee, I was working at the Tennessee 0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:12.880 Department of Education and I had just left Harvard, I 0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:15.560 caddied at the country club at Brookline for a few 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:17.359 loops just so I could play the course. And then 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:19.799 they they told me I needed to shave, and so 0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:21.520 I didn't. I didn't caddy anymore. 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:24.399 So what did you get to play though? 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:26.480 Oh yeah, oh yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, I'd 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:28.520 shave till Kingdom come to play it. But after I 0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:31.120 played it a couple of times and move on, and 0:37:31.160 --> 0:37:33.160 I was I was skipping too much class, and I 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:34.960 just you know, because the only time they'd let us 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:36.360 play was a Monday, and I had class, and so 0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:38.319 I was skipping too much class to play the country club. 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:40.600 So I had to kind of feel like. 0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:42.759 One of the Harvard would be a hard place to 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:43.480 skip classes. 0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:46.800 Yeah, yeah, it was an ideal. It was an ideal, 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:50.680 but it got it got that bug going again of 0:37:50.840 --> 0:37:52.759 like man, this is this is really good. 0:37:52.840 --> 0:37:53.560 This is really good. 0:37:53.719 --> 0:37:55.560 So that's your favorite thing about that course? 0:37:56.200 --> 0:37:59.080 The country club? Oh just again the topography, I mean, 0:37:59.160 --> 0:38:00.520 like the the. 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:03.280 Property. 0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:07.800 It's just it's incredible. Just that lamb moves in unpredictable ways. 0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:09.600 That's that's what I loved about it. 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:10.960 That's that's the thing. 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:14.000 It's like when you when I think about that course 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:17.120 has got like probably like five of the most unique 0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:20.440 holes that I've ever seen. You know, you think about 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:24.200 like three, you think about uh really like four is 0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:30.120 epical five's and epical ten is insane. You know, like 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:32.960 there are there are a lot of like the par 0:38:33.120 --> 0:38:37.000 five I get mixed up with the routing of fourteen 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:38.520 on the championship routing. 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:39.480 That's up. 0:38:39.760 --> 0:38:41.800 Yeah, you aim at the pole in the background. 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:44.360 I hate the pole. They got to get rid of 0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:47.239 the pole. They got to be a reform. You know, 0:38:47.280 --> 0:38:50.319 you worked on education reform. Maybe now you could join 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:53.920 me on like big flagstick reform. Yeah, Like I think 0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:57.480 we needed to remove big flagsticks from from. 0:38:57.320 --> 0:39:00.439 Golfne to line. I like that'll be the next it'll 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:01.240 be the next task. 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:05.120 But it's it's just as important as educated Yeah. 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:07.920 Just as important as desegregation. I mean these things are 0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:13.280 coequal pillars of a healthy civic life. 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:15.400 Yeah. No, I mean it's a I mean it's an 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:16.560 awesome special spot. 0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:20.719 So looping at at the country clubs kind of like 0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:22.359 what got you back into it? 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:24.440 Yeah, it just got me the bug of Wow, this 0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:26.279 is this is special. I like being here. 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:29.359 I didn't look for very long, but it was just, 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:32.360 you know, it was a special it was a special vibe. 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:36.040 And then the program at Harvard was only it was 0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:37.720 a quick like accelerated masters. 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:38.319 It was like a year. 0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:40.759 So before I knew it, I was in Tennessee. And 0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:44.960 here this is when I really started to lose my 0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:48.480 mind around golf, was I. So I was in Tennessee. 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:50.600 I worked in downtown Nashville, but I bought a house 0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:55.000 up in Goodlettsville, which was kind of twenty five minutes north, 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:58.200 and I bought a house on like five acres. 0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:01.840 And so I married at the time, are you. 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:04.799 I had just I had just started dating my now 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:08.000 wife at this time, and she actually helped me do 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:09.120 what I'm about to tell you. 0:40:09.080 --> 0:40:14.520 Which every story of going golf instane starts with a 0:40:14.640 --> 0:40:16.720 very willing partner. 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:17.120 You know. 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:21.120 Absolutely she helped me do what I'm about to say, 0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:23.759 which is that because I had, you know, acreage in 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:27.440 my front yard, well why not build a part three? 0:40:27.640 --> 0:40:31.080 And so I rented a back up. I mean, I 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:31.680 don't know shit. 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:33.880 How much did it cost to rent the back up? 0:40:34.360 --> 0:40:36.160 It wasn't that much. It was just it was like 0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:38.879 a week and I think I probably took off work 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:41.080 and I just like worked all day long on it. 0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:42.439 But I didn't know what I was doing, so part 0:40:42.480 --> 0:40:44.600 of it was just like trying to learn how to 0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:45.279 not tip it over. 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:46.840 Did you have to get a permit? 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:52.040 I don't know, that's a good question. 0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:55.560 I think I had to call the septic because we 0:40:55.560 --> 0:40:57.160 were on septic out there, and I think I had 0:40:57.160 --> 0:40:58.640 to call to make sure I wasn't going to hit 0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:10.719 a septic system, yeah, because yeah, yeah, what were you 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:12.439 doing out there? I mean we had people pull off 0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:14.520 it was Lichton Pike was the road. They'd pull off 0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:17.480 Lichten Pike and they'd say, uh, you know, what what 0:41:17.480 --> 0:41:19.479 are you doing here? Is this like a future lake 0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:20.480 or like what are you? 0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:22.680 What are you doing? I'm building a golf course. 0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:25.520 I had to take out a few trees, and I 0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:27.440 didn't know what I was doing, so like I built 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:30.360 the bunker with like sand bags, Like I didn't know 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:33.279 how to shape things, so I just I dug a 0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:35.480 hole and then just built up the lip with like 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:39.680 sand bags and I covered it with sod and my 0:41:39.680 --> 0:41:42.320 my wife at the time, his girlfriend was was helping 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:48.040 me do this, and I mean, what more of a 0:41:48.080 --> 0:41:50.879 keeper can you possibly find on planet Earth than that? 0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:54.839 So I knew instantly she was the one. And it 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:57.439 actually ended up looking pretty cool. I'll have to send 0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:00.719 you a picture, but it kind of looked it kind 0:42:00.719 --> 0:42:03.040 of the bunkering a little bit looked like the country 0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:05.120 club with kind of like the folded edges. The sandbags 0:42:05.120 --> 0:42:07.640 actually gave it a cool kind of folded sunken in look. 0:42:07.719 --> 0:42:09.600 I bet it would get like a nice shadow to 0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:10.040 it too. 0:42:10.120 --> 0:42:14.320 Yeah, it's like that's how gil Gil builds the small 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:18.080 like mini vetted faith right on his bunkers, and then 0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:19.680 he has the grass come over it. 0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:21.600 You get that shading look. 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:25.960 The sandbag would do probably like a similar thing, talk 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:26.479 about totally. 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:29.880 Yeah, it would be a new bunker construction it could be. 0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:33.200 I mean, it's it held up pretty well now the 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:37.839 so I think it was featured who has that art? 0:42:38.080 --> 0:42:41.319 I think Golf Eye just has the best backyard golf 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:43.799 holes in America. And I think I'm I think I'm 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:48.000 on there alongside you know, Tiger and VJ and John Smoltz. 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:49.560 And it's the only time I'll be listed in the 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:52.080 same sentence as those guys. But it made it. 0:42:52.160 --> 0:42:54.480 There's a pretty good holes, like a really kind of small, 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:58.359 small green one hundred and thirty yards and h we 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:00.880 uh yeah we did you see it? 0:43:01.000 --> 0:43:05.439 Yeah, it's like a oh, I remember, I'm now down 0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:08.160 to this rabbit hole of where it's where I'm looking 0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:14.880 at the old carousels of of of you know, the 0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:16.120 Internet of yesteryear. 0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:18.040 Yes, yes, this was a while ago. 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:21.440 Yeah, where it's not an article, it's just a carousel images. 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:22.760 Yes exactly. 0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:25.759 It's just like what wait, why did this? Why was 0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:27.680 this the Internet for a period of time? 0:43:28.160 --> 0:43:31.160 Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I see it. 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:35.799 It's amazing. It's actually amazing when you look scroll through 0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:39.279 this carousel. I'll post this in the in the show notes. 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:44.279 You scroll through the carousel and every hole is like 0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:48.239 kind of like fake looking, Yeah, and yours like it's 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:50.440 kind of it's kind of like it looks like a 0:43:50.480 --> 0:43:51.160 real golf hole. 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:52.360 It's plausible. 0:43:52.560 --> 0:43:54.719 Yeah, I mean the cream is tiny, what is it? 0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:57.359 Two thousand square feet fifteen. 0:43:57.800 --> 0:43:58.839 Yeah, yeah, if that. 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:00.680 I didn't have a very big so I had to 0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:03.760 keep it small. The maintenance budget was pretty freaking limited. Andy, 0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:06.560 you know, I had to keep keep the features small. 0:44:07.120 --> 0:44:09.040 But uh, I mean, we've played this thing. We played 0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:10.719 it closest to the pen at this thing during my 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:15.640 during my wedding rehearsal, one of my buddies knifed one 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.920 into the actual house because the house is not you 0:44:18.920 --> 0:44:20.200 can't see it in the picture, but the house is 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:22.600 not that far away, Like the screen is only thirty 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:24.839 yards from the house, and you're sort of aiming right 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:25.400 at the house. 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:30.160 But the sad the sad thing is when we when 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:33.680 we moved, we had to we had to, we had 0:44:33.680 --> 0:44:34.760 to bulldoze it because. 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:38.600 Apparently what no buyer, our realtor kept saying, like nobody 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:40.440 wants this ship, like they don't want to have to 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:42.640 maintain a golf hole in their front yard, Like you 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:44.799 just gotta you gotta get rid of it, or we 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:45.680 can't sell the house. 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:47.439 And I'm like, you had to bulldoze it. 0:44:47.760 --> 0:44:48.240 Yeah. 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:50.399 Yeah, so it's not there anymore. Like if you look 0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:51.279 at Google. 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:53.440 Or do you have to light our data? We have 0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:54.840 you recreate it somewhere. 0:44:55.200 --> 0:44:57.120 We didn't have the budget for light art. Yeah. 0:44:57.160 --> 0:45:01.359 Maybe that's the next big restoration project. It's the next 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:02.240 lead though, really. 0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:04.319 I mean, do you have you got to have like 0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:06.640 an acre that you could put it at broom sedge 0:45:06.680 --> 0:45:07.320 in the corner. 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:09.840 That's true, that's true. I got a lot of photos 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:10.160 of it. 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:10.680 Right. 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:12.680 Maybe, I mean we self we have to build a 0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:14.839 practice facility. Maybe that's one of the greens. 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:18.120 It doesn't seem like a functional practice green though. It's 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:20.720 pretty small, pretty small, yeah, pretty small. 0:45:20.880 --> 0:45:22.600 Yeah. And it wasn't even put up. 0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:26.520 I mean it was like whatever whatever the Bermuda grass 0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:29.000 was from Low's on depot. 0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:32.000 It was. I didn't have ultra dwarfrom this green. 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:32.400 You know. 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:34.160 I got like a low mower and I scalped the 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:36.239 ship out of it and you can sort of you 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:39.680 could sort of put on it, but uh. 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:42.160 The green, the green had to be insane. 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:46.160 Oh yeah, yeah, it was rolling at a bumpyfore. It 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:47.160 was not the best. 0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:49.719 I Oh, when I lived in Chicago, I always had 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:53.200 this dream of building a putting green in my front yard, 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:56.439 like very much in the front yard, yeah yeah, yeah, 0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:59.480 and then just putting putters out there and like having 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:03.480 it be like a neighborhood putting green. Yeah, like where 0:46:03.520 --> 0:46:06.440 like if you're walking by, you could just hit some putts. 0:46:07.080 --> 0:46:09.760 I don't know why these don't exist, is like shilling. 0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:13.200 I like, frankly wonder about I always think about this too. 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:15.120 When I drive down the road and I see like 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.879 a tiny little acre, like an acre of land that's 0:46:18.920 --> 0:46:22.239 for sale. It's like, clearly nobody's gonna is, Like why 0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:24.719 isn't anyone like trying to figure out a business to 0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:27.640 just build a single golf hole and it's like you 0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:30.279 can pay four dollars to come play. 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:32.000 Yeah, it's just a it's a drive up. 0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:34.879 Yeah yeah, I mean drive up, play one golf hole 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:37.040 and you're done. Like I'd be into that. 0:46:37.120 --> 0:46:39.799 I would be, like I was thinking, I've got like 0:46:39.840 --> 0:46:42.480 a couple of weeks I'm playing the next time I 0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:46.000 know I'm playing golf, it's in November, and I've thought 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:49.239 about maybe going to the range or like in mid November, right, 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:51.560 and I've thought about maybe like I want to go 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:52.080 to the range. 0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:54.080 I kind of, you know, I kind of I want 0:46:54.120 --> 0:46:54.879 to play. 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:58.080 Decent and it's like but like I just I really 0:46:58.120 --> 0:46:59.800 just want to like take like two swings. 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:01.640 That's all I want. But I don't want to go 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:02.680 to Like if I could. 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:06.720 Just drive by, stop and hit a shot, hit three putts, 0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:08.120 I feel like I'm staying sharp. 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:11.040 Yeah right, yeah, fifteen minutes and you're out. Yeah. 0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:13.759 And the thing that once you put a pin in 0:47:13.800 --> 0:47:15.560 the ground, people know what it is, and that was 0:47:15.960 --> 0:47:17.399 nobody knew what the hell I was doing. But once 0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:19.160 I put a pin in the green, people would come 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:21.239 up to your door and say, hey, can I like 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:22.520 this is this looks pretty cool? 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:23.560 Can I hit a shot? And I'm like, yeah, I 0:47:23.600 --> 0:47:23.920 go for it. 0:47:24.000 --> 0:47:25.520 You know, people stop by. 0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:28.240 Yeah yeah, people would stop by because the tea box 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:29.319 was right by the road. 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:31.040 So you love this. 0:47:31.200 --> 0:47:33.600 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:35.680 It was uh, it was pretty fun, but it was 0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:37.440 you know, unfortunately it was short lived. 0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:40.120 But I think that's like just the difference between Scotland 0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:42.239 and in America, right, Like if you think about like 0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:45.440 the Kids' Court or like the Putting Green in downtown 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:46.120 North Barrack. 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:48.120 It's just like a total it's just there. 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:52.760 Like I don't understand why they can't be parts of parks, right. 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:57.200 Yeah, yeah, absolutely there was. There was one in Dallas 0:47:57.239 --> 0:47:59.480 that I remember at the Clyde Warren Park. They had 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:01.759 as an asteroidsurf putting green, but it was just there. 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:03.760 It just putter's land on the ground and some balls 0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:06.080 and it was always in use. It's a great thing. 0:48:07.080 --> 0:48:07.920 Should be more of it. 0:48:08.360 --> 0:48:10.880 What, like, how did you get do you have like 0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:14.000 a moment where you like you decided I'm building this 0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:17.680 golf hole, because I assume this is the moment that 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:21.280 that led to you just dropping my drop. 0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:22.800 My political career eventually. 0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:26.440 I mean, this is the this has got to be 0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:29.560 the moment, right when you decided to build this golf 0:48:29.560 --> 0:48:32.040 hole that you just put your foot in the ground. 0:48:32.840 --> 0:48:36.719 You know, screw out my education, right, I mean, I 0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:38.720 do something completely different with my life. 0:48:39.040 --> 0:48:41.160 Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, do you 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:44.360 know when you're going crazy? I don't know. It just happens. 0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:45.880 Just one day I woke up and it felt like 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:48.200 the right thing to do. There wasn't I don't remember, 0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:50.839 like an aha, it was just like I was kind 0:48:50.840 --> 0:48:53.040 of I think I was a first time homeowner and 0:48:53.080 --> 0:48:55.920 I'm just like, wow, all this land I have, Well, 0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:57.560 what do you do with lots of land? Well, obviously 0:48:57.600 --> 0:48:59.919 you build golf, And that just kind of went went 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:03.879 from there. I don't know, I felt like I could 0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:07.400 build a cool hole, you know, I had. 0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:09.960 Did you have a lot of concepts? Like what was 0:49:10.000 --> 0:49:13.080 the ideation around? Did you just or did you just 0:49:13.120 --> 0:49:14.480 start digging stuff? 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:15.480 Oh? 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:16.960 I knew it was going to be about one hundred 0:49:16.960 --> 0:49:19.120 and thirty yard par three because that's kind of what 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:21.040 I what I had to work with from the corner 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:24.200 of the road to where this location would be. So 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:25.839 I knew it was going to be a part three. 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:29.200 I knew it was going to be relatively short, and 0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:32.840 beyond that, I was really at the time, I was 0:49:32.920 --> 0:49:36.480 kind of thinking of sixteen at the country club. Just 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:38.759 something basically like a you know, kind of an intimidating 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:43.760 fronting bunker and nothing too complicated and see what happened. 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:45.120 So that was kind of what was in my head 0:49:45.200 --> 0:49:46.439 when I was when I. 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:49.319 Was doing because I was fresh off my my, my, 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:51.360 oh so many loops at the country club. So I 0:49:51.400 --> 0:49:53.200 was just kind of thinking like a sixteen at the 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:55.480 country club would be kind of cool's let's do that. 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:57.680 Did you ever make a hole one on it? 0:49:58.160 --> 0:49:59.120 No? 0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:01.879 No, I never, So I never made a hole on 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:05.719 one in my entire life until a few weeks ago 0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:06.920 at the opening round at. 0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:10.440 Broomsedge, first round ever played there. 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:12.880 First round ever at Broomsedge, and luckily we were a. 0:50:12.880 --> 0:50:16.279 Guy that bought the land, built the course. You make 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:18.520 a whole one your first round, pretty. 0:50:18.239 --> 0:50:20.080 Freak, and luckily we were in a sixth sum so 0:50:20.080 --> 0:50:23.440 there was There's many that can attest to the veracity 0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:28.000 of this story, and the truth is I didn't hit 0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:31.239 it very good. I mean it was a skanky nine 0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:33.440 iron that had I hit a flush, it would have 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:36.000 airmailed the green. But I hit it just skanky enough 0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:37.440 to where it kind of like had no spin when 0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:39.440 it hit the green and it just trickled right and all. 0:50:39.520 --> 0:50:41.520 It was pretty wild. And that was my first hole 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:41.919 one ever. 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:45.399 I think that maybe the same day or the next day, 0:50:45.560 --> 0:50:50.080 I was playing golf at Old Barnwell and this is 0:50:50.080 --> 0:50:52.680 how stupid hole ones are. I was the guy I 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.600 was playing with a friend of mine. He hit like 0:50:55.840 --> 0:50:58.480 an incredible shot. I mean the second he hit it, 0:50:58.520 --> 0:51:01.160 I was like going the hole going the like that, 0:51:01.160 --> 0:51:05.320 that's an amazing And it ended up like I swear 0:51:05.360 --> 0:51:07.960 I've never seen a ball hang more over a lip 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:10.239 and not go in. Like we got up to the 0:51:10.280 --> 0:51:12.960 ball and it's like, are you kidding me? So then 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:15.760 we go and play the kids course at Old Barnwell, 0:51:15.880 --> 0:51:18.920 first hole. So this is the next part three. He 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:22.040 plays after like just getting robbed of a hole one. 0:51:22.200 --> 0:51:23.880 So it was on seventeen at Old Vern. 0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:27.400 Seventeen at Old Barne Okay. Next, so we go to 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.560 the kids course, first hole. He literally like hits like 0:51:30.680 --> 0:51:37.600 a half shank and it catches the slope, kicks left, 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:40.000 and I go, I think that went in. We can't 0:51:40.080 --> 0:51:42.280 see it, and we get up there it's in the hole. 0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:46.080 It's just like, this is why hole ones are dumb. Yeah, 0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:49.239 the whole whole outs are better than whole ones, like 0:51:49.320 --> 0:51:54.600 whole out, whole out Eagles Albatross's because it requires two 0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:55.280 good shots. 0:51:55.760 --> 0:51:56.000 Yeah. 0:51:56.040 --> 0:51:58.000 Absolutely, Yeah, you have to be in that position in 0:51:58.000 --> 0:51:58.600 the first place. 0:51:59.440 --> 0:51:59.680 Yeah. 0:51:59.800 --> 0:52:01.959 It's kind of a sheepish feeling like I. 0:52:01.840 --> 0:52:05.680 Didn't but it was. It was pretty damn good story. 0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:07.759 It was meant to be. That's a moment that was 0:52:07.800 --> 0:52:08.200 meant to be. 0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:08.920 It was. 0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:13.279 It was, so let's let's go to like you move 0:52:13.360 --> 0:52:17.040 back to you keep doing the politics, uh career. I 0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:19.239 guess that's that's safe to say. Politics. 0:52:19.800 --> 0:52:22.040 Yeah, that's a good catch all for it, sure catch all. 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:26.359 And you go, you're in Southern Pines. You're doing that remotely? Yeah, 0:52:28.239 --> 0:52:31.200 why did you pick Kyle to reach out to? 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:33.400 What? What made you pick him? 0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:34.080 Yeah? 0:52:34.400 --> 0:52:38.240 So it was the Southern Pines project was was just starting, 0:52:38.400 --> 0:52:42.120 like literally they were days away from, uh from from 0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:43.920 putting dirt in the ground. And I wasn't gonna like, 0:52:44.080 --> 0:52:47.920 I mean, I was still working full time, kids in school, Like, 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:49.640 it's not like I was going to go travel to 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:51.680 some far off place to do this. So it was like, 0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:55.040 oh shit, this is happening in my backyard. I mean, 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:57.440 I I had loved what what Kyle had done at 0:52:57.520 --> 0:53:00.440 Mid Pines and Pine Needles and even some of the 0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:02.920 work on Number three. I love Number three, best kept 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:05.000 secret in town. Like, I love some of the work there. 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.800 So I was already, like, you know, I was already 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:10.239 a fan of what Kyle had done in the neighborhood, 0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:12.239 and so I just I reached out, and I. 0:53:12.160 --> 0:53:13.239 Guess I don't know. 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:15.920 I mean, Kyle was still you know, Kyle didn't have 0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:20.400 any new builds at the time. He was still you know, locally, 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:22.200 he was pretty well known, but didn't quite have the 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:25.160 profile that he that he has now. And so maybe 0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:26.920 that was a benefit to me. Like I often think, 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:28.800 like what if I had I mean, I just stone 0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:31.879 cold emailed him, and I was not thinking I'd get 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.600 a response back. And then I got a response saying 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.640 let's have lunch. But had I done that to a bigger, 0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:41.239 more established firm, I mean, I probably don't get an 0:53:41.239 --> 0:53:45.200 email back. So yeah, stars aligned, Kyle and I head 0:53:45.200 --> 0:53:47.080 it off. I mean we're still, you know, really good friends, 0:53:47.120 --> 0:53:49.840 and we just hit it off. We you know, we 0:53:49.960 --> 0:53:52.759 share a lot of things of common interest together, not 0:53:52.800 --> 0:53:53.240 just golf. 0:53:54.480 --> 0:53:57.160 So yeah, I didn't know that Kyle. You know, I 0:53:57.200 --> 0:53:59.360 know Kyle pretty well. I didn't know there was common 0:53:59.400 --> 0:54:00.919 interest besides golf of Kyle. 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:02.960 Oh yeah, golf. He's a golf maniac. 0:54:03.120 --> 0:54:05.880 Yeah, but you know he's also perhaps an even greater 0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:07.280 maniac about college football. 0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:09.799 And he's a Notre dame no way, yo. Oh he's 0:54:10.160 --> 0:54:13.000 he's he can tell you. Yeah, he can tell you that. 0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:15.839 He could tell you the statistics from a Notre Dame 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:20.080 game in nineteen fifty four. I mean, he's just he's 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:21.080 a savant. 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:22.200 I love that. 0:54:22.320 --> 0:54:25.000 I yeah, yea, yeah, so he was. 0:54:25.080 --> 0:54:27.080 I think that he jokes, and I don't know that 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:29.160 he's actually joking, but he says at the time, like, 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:31.239 because I went to undergrad at Notre Dame, that's probably 0:54:31.280 --> 0:54:33.520 why he emailed me, right, he needed somebody to talk 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:35.960 about Notre Dame football. Well, but he's a huge Notre 0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:36.480 Dame guy. 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:40.320 That's the Bill Court. You've heard the Bill cor Pete 0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:41.479 Die story, have you? 0:54:41.600 --> 0:54:42.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:54:42.800 --> 0:54:44.040 He thinks that he. 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:46.719 Came to meet him just to watch the Dolphins game 0:54:47.200 --> 0:54:48.280 to get out of the house. 0:54:48.600 --> 0:54:48.799 Yep. 0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:51.879 And he came to his hotel room or wherever Bill 0:54:52.000 --> 0:54:54.759 was staying, and he turned on the Dolphins game and 0:54:54.800 --> 0:54:56.600 he's like, yeah, you can work for me. 0:54:57.320 --> 0:54:58.200 Yeah. 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.760 It's weird. Life is weird. It's weird stuff. It's weird stuff. 0:55:02.200 --> 0:55:04.000 I mean I remember that first lunch of Kyle. I 0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:06.520 mean we talked a little bit about golf, but it 0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:08.080 was it was a lot of noted in football. 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:13.880 All right, what when you look at that Southern Pines project. 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:20.400 What would be your biggest takeaway about golf architecture from 0:55:21.640 --> 0:55:25.120 thinking about it building a backyard hole too, like I 0:55:25.640 --> 0:55:27.640 am on a full scale project here. 0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:36.640 Yeah, yeah, the teamwork nature of it. Just I mean, 0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:40.520 number one, how how welcoming people were to a schmuck 0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:43.560 like me, Like just I mean, like the shapers like 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:46.920 you know, Am and Sullivan and Matt Smallwood. I mean 0:55:46.960 --> 0:55:49.440 like they were cool with me popping in their machine 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:52.400 and trying something out, like they were welcoming about it, 0:55:52.440 --> 0:55:54.640 and they taught me stuff, and so it was a 0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:59.600 very welcoming, team oriented environment. And I realized just how 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:01.759 much that it really is a team. I think when 0:56:01.800 --> 0:56:03.719 you're when you're not in it, you sort of think like, 0:56:04.600 --> 0:56:08.200 you know, the architect is the guy doing it all, 0:56:08.320 --> 0:56:11.840 but there's so much happening at the shaper and laborer 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:15.799 level that's making that place what it is, and it 0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:19.000 really it's a you know, it's a thirty piece band 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:21.319 and everybody's got to be going and sync. So I 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:23.800 just never really realized you sort of have this idea 0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:26.799 in your head of like the architects savant, that's that's 0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:30.400 orchestrating everything, and you know it's true to some extent, 0:56:30.440 --> 0:56:32.840 but often it's just you know, the architects saying, you know, 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:37.279 here's here's two concepts, go make it happen. And so 0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:39.560 that was the you know, that was the That was 0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:41.920 a big takeaway. The other big takeaway was I did 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:46.799 not realize how much water plays a role in everything 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:50.480 that is done. It's all like, Okay, where's the water gone, 0:56:50.520 --> 0:56:53.399 where's the water going, where's the water going. I never 0:56:53.440 --> 0:56:55.680 had really thought about where water moves and how it 0:56:55.719 --> 0:56:57.800 moves and how you get it to move in different directions. 0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:01.440 I never realized how which water management was a key 0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:03.640 piece of architecture. I sort of thought like, oh, you know, 0:57:03.719 --> 0:57:07.319 it's artsy fartsy stuff, and you know, the lip line 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:09.160 of a bunker and maybe we do a finger, maybe 0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:11.359 we do a tongue, and there is an element to that. 0:57:11.440 --> 0:57:13.839 But there's a lot of function to it as well 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:17.360 that I never really appreciated. And just I mean, like 0:57:17.400 --> 0:57:19.600 the transformation of Southern pints just makes you realize that, 0:57:19.640 --> 0:57:21.560 you know, if you've got good bones in the land, 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:22.640 you can you can do magic. 0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:27.480 I feel like water is one of those things that 0:57:27.640 --> 0:57:30.560 like you don't you don't think is cool and this 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:33.640 is like, you know, very nitty gritty. But then once 0:57:33.680 --> 0:57:35.600 you get like really into it, it's like one of 0:57:35.640 --> 0:57:39.920 the most fascinating aspects of it is like moving water around. 0:57:40.600 --> 0:57:45.200 How like really talented people hide how they're moving water, 0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:47.640 Like I mean, like that's like to me, the most 0:57:47.680 --> 0:57:50.000 amazing thing is when you walk off of green and 0:57:50.040 --> 0:57:52.720 you see a cut like forty yards up a hill 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:55.680 that like you would never and it's like, oh, that's 0:57:55.720 --> 0:57:59.720 like how they they're draining this, keeping the water off 0:57:59.760 --> 0:58:02.280 this this green in area, so you don't have any 0:58:02.320 --> 0:58:04.880 basins around here, you know, right, It's like. 0:58:04.880 --> 0:58:10.000 And yeah, and just like how much how much reaction 0:58:10.240 --> 0:58:13.320 there is to water movement even after the ship, Like 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:17.640 I remember the eleventh Hole at Southern Pines, that kind 0:58:17.640 --> 0:58:20.920 of epic, you know, driverable par four now, the kind 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:23.560 of capes around the around the water there. And I remember, 0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:26.240 you know, we were in the middle of summer and 0:58:26.320 --> 0:58:28.760 I think I had just shaped a couple of bunkers 0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:31.000 on the left side and the right side, and we 0:58:31.040 --> 0:58:34.800 had a really big rainstorm and it like demolished. Okay, 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:37.200 you know, because you're talking about sandy soils, this stuff washes. 0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:39.560 You know, you could build a water bar on a 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:41.880 on a bunker, but you know, sometimes if the rain 0:58:41.920 --> 0:58:44.120 comes down hard enough, if fast enough, bunker goes by 0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:47.920 by until it's stabilized with you know, with with vegetation. 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:50.480 And like I remember going in the next day and 0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:52.880 I was just like devastated, like oh my, like look 0:58:52.920 --> 0:58:54.920 at the wash, like this is biblical. 0:58:55.000 --> 0:58:55.960 The whole project's room. 0:58:56.040 --> 0:58:58.960 And and what I learned from the pros was, now, man, 0:58:59.000 --> 0:59:01.160 this is a good thing. It's it's good to learn this. 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:04.720 Now we're seeing where the water's going. Look at the rivulets, 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:07.000 look at how the water's moving. All we need to 0:59:07.000 --> 0:59:09.160 do is build the water bar further up to hill. 0:59:09.520 --> 0:59:11.800 Like we obviously the water bar can't be down here 0:59:11.840 --> 0:59:13.680 because it's too late in the game. The water's already 0:59:13.720 --> 0:59:16.400 gained enough speed and it's going to obliterate this this uh, 0:59:16.880 --> 0:59:19.560 this bunker edge. But if we catch it thirty yards 0:59:19.640 --> 0:59:21.360 up the hill and build the waterway in the woods 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:22.920 that nobody's going to see, we can redirect it this 0:59:22.960 --> 0:59:25.400 way and it goes out just follow the rivulets. And 0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:29.160 it was it was fascinating and it but yeah, I 0:59:29.240 --> 0:59:31.320 mean so much of it was was water management, but 0:59:31.360 --> 0:59:34.840 also like a fair amount of reactionary water management based 0:59:34.920 --> 0:59:37.160 on the latest storm and seeing what it does because 0:59:37.160 --> 0:59:40.040 you can't you know, you don't always know exactly what 0:59:40.080 --> 0:59:41.680 the water is going to do in a fire storm, 0:59:41.720 --> 0:59:43.920 and it's it's helpful to see it. I mean, we 0:59:44.040 --> 0:59:47.320 like our our drainage system at Broomsedge. We that's how 0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:48.360 we built it. 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:49.240 You know. 0:59:49.280 --> 0:59:50.760 We would we would shape the hole and then it 0:59:50.800 --> 0:59:52.680 would it would rain like cats and dogs, and we'd 0:59:52.680 --> 0:59:54.320 go and look at the rivulets and see where the 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:57.240 water was moving, and we mapped our drainage Accordingly. We 0:59:57.240 --> 1:00:00.120 didn't really have like a going in drainage plan. We 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:02.640 just we shaped it, We saw where the water was moving, 1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:04.640 and we based our drainage plan around that. 1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:08.600 I think this also ties back to what you talked 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:11.840 about at the beginning, where you talked about sixty sites 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:13.080 finding the best site. 1:00:13.320 --> 1:00:13.600 Yeah. 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:18.320 Like some things that help with drainage and water management 1:00:18.400 --> 1:00:19.040 is vegetation. 1:00:19.480 --> 1:00:19.760 Yep. 1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:23.080 The less you have to move on a site, the 1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:27.880 more native vegetation you keep, yes, and the better you 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:32.200 suited you're going to be for for withstanding big rain 1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:36.320 events because you're moving less earth so you're disturbing less 1:00:36.400 --> 1:00:40.320 land in the way that a site's drained for thousands 1:00:40.320 --> 1:00:42.640 of years is intact yep. 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:45.479 If you don't have to mess with it, don't mess 1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:47.880 with it, leave it alone, keep it stable, because the 1:00:47.880 --> 1:00:50.640 minu you disturb soil, that's when it that's when it washes. 1:00:50.880 --> 1:00:55.160 And it was a pretty challenging thing too, because it 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:59.360 was there were trees everywhere. So when the timber folks 1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:01.800 come in, I mean they make a mess of the place. 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:04.520 I mean there's timber slash everywhere, and so sometimes you 1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:08.920 would find, you know, timber slash among like really you know, 1:01:09.000 --> 1:01:12.360 beautiful vegetation that you really don't want to disturb, but 1:01:12.440 --> 1:01:14.880 you also just kind of want to for sake of efficiency. 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:16.080 You kind of just want to go in there with 1:01:16.120 --> 1:01:17.840 a root rake and a bulldozer and get that crap 1:01:17.880 --> 1:01:19.040 out of there. But at the same time, you're going 1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:21.200 to disturb the soil. So it's a it's a very 1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:27.720 delicate balance. Erosion control is so critical to a project, 1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:30.880 not only in terms of like the outcome of the 1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:32.840 golf course itself, but in terms of cost. I mean 1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:34.560 a lot of a lot of golf courses go away. 1:01:34.600 --> 1:01:37.360 The hell over budget because they can't get erosion under control. 1:01:38.280 --> 1:01:42.920 Yeah, it's it's like a it's a a killer that 1:01:43.160 --> 1:01:46.600 nobody ever thinks about when you start to start a project. 1:01:46.760 --> 1:01:50.680 Is just like okay, because like you know, it's a time. 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:54.640 Earth moving is the most expensive thing, and to control 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:57.080 water usually requires earth moving. 1:01:57.440 --> 1:01:57.680 Yep. 1:01:59.560 --> 1:02:02.320 Let's so you hit on this earlier. 1:02:02.760 --> 1:02:06.640 You were not a billionaire or you know, even a 1:02:07.480 --> 1:02:11.360 I don't know your financial situation, a multi millionaire. 1:02:12.120 --> 1:02:15.240 You are a you're a normal person. 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:19.160 Yeah, I worked for a nonprofit who built who. 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:23.560 Who bought a piece of land and built a golf course? 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:30.240 Can we just look how? I like, this is everybody's dream? 1:02:30.600 --> 1:02:32.120 How did you actually do it? 1:02:34.480 --> 1:02:38.040 So? I took out an agricultural loan, and. 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:41.960 So we searched. As you said earlier, you search soured 1:02:42.080 --> 1:02:43.280 this area. 1:02:43.160 --> 1:02:45.200 Found the side I wanted, and then I found the 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:47.919 side I want, And then it's like, okay, I could 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:50.480 try to get investors on board right now, but that's 1:02:50.680 --> 1:02:52.800 you know, that's hurting cats. This land is going to 1:02:52.840 --> 1:02:54.440 be gone by that stage. So you know what I'm 1:02:54.480 --> 1:02:56.360 gonna do, take a leap of faith. I'm going to 1:02:56.400 --> 1:02:58.520 buy this thing with the loan and I'll figure the 1:02:58.560 --> 1:03:01.720 rest out later. But the central ingredient here is the land. 1:03:01.840 --> 1:03:03.760 I can nail that down now. I have tremendous faith 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:06.720 in this thing. And then the other thing was, what's 1:03:06.760 --> 1:03:09.640 the risk. It's a land. God's not making any more 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:11.960 of it. If I can't figure this thing out in 1:03:12.000 --> 1:03:13.880 a couple of years, if I can't get any investors, 1:03:13.920 --> 1:03:16.080 if people are like, who the hell are you, what 1:03:16.120 --> 1:03:18.320 are you talking about, then I'll just sell it. And 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:20.440 maybe it's a wash. I mean, it's not like an 1:03:20.480 --> 1:03:24.320 existential risk because it's land. So so then I just 1:03:24.560 --> 1:03:27.080 you know, got the land and then started to started 1:03:27.080 --> 1:03:31.280 to find partners. You know, the original guys Andrew Dennenburgh 1:03:31.480 --> 1:03:34.080 and David McFarlane and Aaron Oberman were kind of the 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:38.720 original amigos here, and we scraped together some angel funds 1:03:38.880 --> 1:03:43.520 to do you know, permitting and wetlands delineations and the 1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:45.480 routing and all that sort of stuff to at least 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:49.120 have a plan that we could that we could execute. 1:03:50.160 --> 1:03:52.160 And then once we had the plan ready to go, 1:03:52.680 --> 1:03:55.160 then I mean we needed construction funds. And we had 1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:58.920 talked to you know a lot of different investors and 1:03:59.000 --> 1:04:02.200 made sure we shared a similar vision, and I was 1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:04.280 very clear that I wanted to maintain control of the 1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:07.040 of the golf And so you talk to a lot 1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:10.160 of a lot of potential investors where just we weren't 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:10.640 lined up. 1:04:11.680 --> 1:04:14.040 I imagine it's hard to find. 1:04:14.520 --> 1:04:17.240 Like that's got to be one of the toughest aspects 1:04:17.480 --> 1:04:19.240 of a golf course. 1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:19.400 Is like. 1:04:21.000 --> 1:04:23.440 In trying, like when you don't have the money to 1:04:24.000 --> 1:04:27.560 fund it, when you're looking for people to fund it, 1:04:28.560 --> 1:04:30.960 they want it to be their golf course. 1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:33.800 Totally yeah, and they don't. I mean, I want to. 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:36.120 One guy said to me, well, you know you're no 1:04:36.280 --> 1:04:38.800 Tom Doak. Well, no shit, I know that, you. 1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:44.560 Know, like, thanks, thanks for me, thanks tips, you know. 1:04:44.640 --> 1:04:45.680 So there was a lot of that. 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:49.560 I mean, I was a girl, you know, Bob Dylan 1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:52.160 has I'm a big, big dealing fan, and he said 1:04:52.160 --> 1:04:54.040 something once in like a sixty minutes interview that always 1:04:54.040 --> 1:04:55.880 stuck with me. He said, you know, there's sometimes you 1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:58.680 just have this feeling about yourself that nobody else knows, 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:00.760 and you just have your yeah, this picture in your 1:05:00.800 --> 1:05:04.040 mind of of what you're capable of, and you don't 1:05:04.080 --> 1:05:06.240 tell anybody because if you tell somebody they're going to 1:05:06.320 --> 1:05:10.400 kill it. Everybody's good at killing ideas, and so I 1:05:10.440 --> 1:05:12.280 just kind of had this this faith that I could 1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:14.160 you know, do something really cool here. And it was 1:05:14.200 --> 1:05:18.320 about finding the right the right investor who shared that faith. 1:05:18.600 --> 1:05:22.520 And then you know, Cody Sunburg came along and uh 1:05:22.640 --> 1:05:25.040 and believed in it and you know, didn't want to 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:27.800 meddle in the golf stuff and you know, let me 1:05:28.080 --> 1:05:31.000 be in charge of the construction and funded it and 1:05:31.680 --> 1:05:34.360 you know, and the rest is history. I mean, but 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:37.200 but we had, you know, we had explored, you know, 1:05:37.240 --> 1:05:39.320 conversations with a lot of investors where it just didn't 1:05:39.360 --> 1:05:43.240 work for whatever reason or the other. But uh, you know, finally, uh, 1:05:43.680 --> 1:05:45.160 you know, your Cinderella comes along. 1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:50.640 Was there was there a moment when you didn't believe 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:53.800 it was going to happen. Yeah, for what was like 1:05:54.200 --> 1:05:57.720 what was like the most dire uh moment of of 1:05:57.840 --> 1:05:59.040 lacking self belief. 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:04.640 So it was it was a struggle to find to 1:06:04.720 --> 1:06:09.360 find some investors. And so we had made the decision 1:06:09.440 --> 1:06:13.880 and me and Andrew and David and Aaron and Bran Coffin, 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:16.600 you know, the original guys of well, you know what, 1:06:17.280 --> 1:06:20.000 let's just go out and start shaping shit. It's maybe 1:06:20.040 --> 1:06:23.000 it'll be like a self fulfilling prophecy. We have, you know, 1:06:23.320 --> 1:06:25.600 four hundred dollars in the bank, you know, that covers 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:28.080 an excavator, a mini excavator for a week. Let's go, 1:06:28.120 --> 1:06:30.840 I'll go rough shape the sixth Green and I don't know, 1:06:30.920 --> 1:06:33.960 maybe maybe momentum creates more momentum and we'll just start 1:06:34.200 --> 1:06:38.040 doing it that way. And then so we're out there 1:06:38.240 --> 1:06:41.240 and I duped my dad in to help, like picking 1:06:41.360 --> 1:06:45.080 up stumps and trees, and David McFarland duped his dad 1:06:45.080 --> 1:06:47.520 to come out and like, so we're out there, like 1:06:47.840 --> 1:06:49.560 I mean, a bunch of total schmucks out there. 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:50.080 It's July. 1:06:50.840 --> 1:06:55.840 I've always believed in this, this idea. There used to 1:06:55.840 --> 1:06:59.760 be canal shores, just got redone in Chicago. Yeah, but 1:06:59.840 --> 1:07:03.000 I used to take part in this, Like I believe 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:04.920 this is the way you can do this with like 1:07:05.600 --> 1:07:08.960 total golf tragics like ourselves. Oh yeah, you can just 1:07:09.240 --> 1:07:11.960 get people to come do like Missline. 1:07:11.640 --> 1:07:13.400 Absolutely on a golf course crazy and be. 1:07:13.400 --> 1:07:15.760 Like, hey, do you want to Like I dug a 1:07:15.800 --> 1:07:17.880 bunker at this golf course with a shovel. 1:07:18.200 --> 1:07:21.240 It was awful. It was like I remember, I got like, 1:07:21.560 --> 1:07:23.800 I was like, why did I just do this? Like what? 1:07:24.640 --> 1:07:27.120 That was an awful morning of work. I was exhausted 1:07:27.160 --> 1:07:28.400 for like the next two days. 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:29.280 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 1:07:29.360 --> 1:07:32.400 But like you can do people into doing anything when 1:07:32.400 --> 1:07:33.280 it's golf related. 1:07:33.400 --> 1:07:35.439 Absolutely. My wife makes that point a lot. 1:07:36.040 --> 1:07:39.000 You can go build a fence for the boundary line 1:07:39.040 --> 1:07:42.360 on fifteen at Broomsedge, but you can't you know, you 1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:43.480 can't mow the freaking lawn. 1:07:43.600 --> 1:07:45.400 I mean, come on. And my answer is, well, it's 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:47.400 not golf related. I mean I don't want to do it. 1:07:47.880 --> 1:07:49.520 Uh, you had to have a golf hole in your 1:07:49.520 --> 1:07:50.760 backyard exactly. 1:07:51.160 --> 1:07:53.480 I mowed that thing regularly. We just need more golf 1:07:53.520 --> 1:07:56.560 features in the yard. But that was I remember that 1:07:56.600 --> 1:08:00.240 being a oblique moment because that it was July in Colombia. 1:08:01.520 --> 1:08:03.680 We're just, you know, I'm shaping this and I'm like, oh, 1:08:03.680 --> 1:08:05.480 this is going to be overgrown in a couple of months. 1:08:05.560 --> 1:08:06.960 Nobody's going to see this. What am I doing. 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:08.760 I'm just hoping we can get a nice picture out 1:08:08.800 --> 1:08:10.800 of it and then maybe somebody will have belief. 1:08:10.880 --> 1:08:11.800 And then the. 1:08:11.560 --> 1:08:15.040 Ac broke in the excavator and those things are like 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:16.200 they're like greenhouses. 1:08:16.240 --> 1:08:17.719 When the ac goes out. 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:23.800 And I'm just I'm soaked, I'm dirty. It was just 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:25.960 like what the hell, Like this isn't going to work. 1:08:26.000 --> 1:08:26.679 This is stupid. 1:08:26.760 --> 1:08:29.640 But you know, then you get done with it. You 1:08:29.680 --> 1:08:31.679 take a picture and you're like, yeah, I could see this, 1:08:31.680 --> 1:08:33.360 this could be a cool green all right, I kind 1:08:33.360 --> 1:08:35.040 of see it, and you just keep going. But you 1:08:35.080 --> 1:08:37.120 need a few screws loops to do this. 1:08:37.280 --> 1:08:40.320 I think you have to be a crazy person to 1:08:40.360 --> 1:08:43.560 do anything anything of this nature. 1:08:43.520 --> 1:08:44.440 Right, absolutely. 1:08:44.560 --> 1:08:47.080 Yeah's like to go out and try and do something 1:08:47.160 --> 1:08:51.160 completely unrelated to your your previous existence on earth is 1:08:51.760 --> 1:08:53.680 or you know, yeah, that you. 1:08:53.680 --> 1:08:56.680 Have to be a completely complete lunatic. 1:08:57.040 --> 1:08:59.680 Like I think, like the w I think back to 1:08:59.840 --> 1:09:04.120 like my personal journey with this business. For example, when 1:09:04.160 --> 1:09:06.679 I think back now, I think about like just how 1:09:06.840 --> 1:09:12.000 naive I was, and like nive, being naive is actually 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:13.120 like a superpower. 1:09:13.640 --> 1:09:15.240 Absolutely, if you have. 1:09:15.160 --> 1:09:18.320 No clue how hard it's going to be, it's like 1:09:18.400 --> 1:09:22.080 a great thing because you you still have You're still positive. 1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:25.360 You're positive, like and like you know, some people can 1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:28.000 say I'm like negative and stuff. And I was talking 1:09:28.040 --> 1:09:29.880 to someone one day and they're like, yeah, I mean, 1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:31.880 you're like the most positive person I know. And I 1:09:31.920 --> 1:09:34.680 was like what, They're like, you can't you can't not 1:09:34.880 --> 1:09:37.440 be positive and be an entrepreneur. 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:39.280 And that's effectively what this journey is. 1:09:39.320 --> 1:09:41.800 It's like, yeah, you have to like you can't ever 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:45.040 look at like it would have failed, it would have crumbled, 1:09:45.040 --> 1:09:47.360 you wouldn't have like you wouldn't have been able to 1:09:47.439 --> 1:09:50.679 get up to have the thirtieth investor call that told 1:09:50.720 --> 1:09:51.799 you know, right, yeah. 1:09:51.840 --> 1:09:54.960 Absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, there's a there's a benefit among the 1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:58.280 constraints that this is true even on the design side 1:09:58.280 --> 1:10:01.679 of things as well. If there's a benefit to having 1:10:01.760 --> 1:10:05.719 some naivete on your team to say. 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:06.760 Can we do this? 1:10:06.920 --> 1:10:09.040 And and you know, maybe it's a horrendous idea because 1:10:09.080 --> 1:10:11.920 of erosion or something, but maybe it's something that nobody 1:10:11.960 --> 1:10:15.800 had previously thought of and it's because their constraints, you know, 1:10:15.880 --> 1:10:17.639 kind of told them that that's not a thing you do. 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:20.040 So it can be you know, it could be a risk, 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:21.559 but it can also be a real benefit. 1:10:22.080 --> 1:10:24.920 Well that's I mean, that's the thing with any industry, right, 1:10:25.040 --> 1:10:28.680 like most of the most of the fresh new ideas, 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:31.240 like the guy that came up with Uber was not 1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:33.800 a taxi cab drive right, and did not manage a 1:10:33.840 --> 1:10:35.040 taxi company. Right. 1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:38.880 The person that that started at Airbnb, I believe, was 1:10:38.920 --> 1:10:40.679 not in the hotel industry, right. 1:10:40.760 --> 1:10:44.120 They did not like this is this is how it works, right, 1:10:44.200 --> 1:10:48.760 someone that is completely Underlike, the vast majority of great 1:10:48.800 --> 1:10:52.080 ideas do not come from people that are entrenched in 1:10:52.120 --> 1:10:55.720 the industry. Of course, there are visionaries within industries. They 1:10:55.800 --> 1:10:59.200 become you know, titans of the industry. But like I 1:10:59.240 --> 1:11:01.200 think a lot of time, the best ideas come from 1:11:01.360 --> 1:11:05.120 outside people that come into an industry, which is like 1:11:05.479 --> 1:11:08.280 I think, like what I what I'm fascinated about with 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:11.960 Like your background is like you know, like the the 1:11:12.000 --> 1:11:13.920 topographical maps from the Air Force. 1:11:13.960 --> 1:11:15.960 But then like one of the things that's like. 1:11:16.240 --> 1:11:20.439 A huge pain in the ass for most people to 1:11:20.520 --> 1:11:23.040 navigate with building a golf course and is like the 1:11:23.080 --> 1:11:27.559 permitting aspect. But you have a huge experience working in 1:11:27.600 --> 1:11:30.840 the public sector like that. Yeah probably, I mean that's 1:11:31.000 --> 1:11:32.960 that's like busy work, you know. 1:11:33.280 --> 1:11:36.200 Yeah, yeah, that was that was a relative easy part 1:11:36.280 --> 1:11:40.040 going before the county council and getting the zoning. I mean, 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:42.400 there was not a golf there there wasn't a golf 1:11:42.439 --> 1:11:44.000 course in the. 1:11:43.920 --> 1:11:46.479 County, and so there was the entire county. 1:11:46.880 --> 1:11:47.719 Yeah, not in the county. 1:11:47.720 --> 1:11:49.439 There used to be at a close so they didn't 1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:52.280 have like a zoning category for a golf course. So 1:11:52.320 --> 1:11:55.960 they had to create a new zoning category. And that 1:11:56.000 --> 1:11:58.640 stuff didn't really it didn't FaZe me because again, I 1:11:58.760 --> 1:12:01.280 just that was that was part of the course. 1:12:01.360 --> 1:12:04.360 That was that was normal work. But yeah, it certainly 1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:04.920 came in handy. 1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.720 There is uh is South Carolina going to become your 1:12:08.760 --> 1:12:10.439 second favorite team to Notre Dame. 1:12:10.680 --> 1:12:12.920 You know, you're not gonna run very much. 1:12:13.479 --> 1:12:15.880 Yeah, that's that's an added benefit is that we don't 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:18.760 run up against them too much. But I think so 1:12:19.560 --> 1:12:22.960 we've uh, you know, the folks at the University of 1:12:23.000 --> 1:12:25.000 South Carolina have been real friendly to us. They want 1:12:25.040 --> 1:12:26.840 to come out and play. You know, we've talked about 1:12:26.840 --> 1:12:30.120 hosting tournaments and whatnot. So they've been awesome to us. 1:12:31.280 --> 1:12:33.719 A couple of them are are members, and so it's 1:12:33.760 --> 1:12:36.559 it's great. They've they've been a great neighbor. So yeah, 1:12:36.600 --> 1:12:39.160 I guess I root for uh. I root for South 1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:41.000 Carolina until they play Notre game. 1:12:49.120 --> 1:12:51.040 All right, let's take a quick break to talk about 1:12:51.080 --> 1:12:54.719 our partner, Stripe. Just like Club Champions, Stripe is a 1:12:55.000 --> 1:12:58.040 product that we've used for a really long time. Stripe 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:02.840 helped me build this business, this podcast business, this this 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:06.200 online business by making it super easy for somebody with 1:13:06.400 --> 1:13:10.040 a lot on their plate that doesn't really have technical expertise. 1:13:10.439 --> 1:13:14.960 So Stripe makes our payments go round. They work with 1:13:15.160 --> 1:13:19.799 a ton of businesses, so they serve over two million 1:13:19.880 --> 1:13:24.320 businesses of all sizes, so businesses like ours, but also 1:13:24.520 --> 1:13:29.200 huge companies like Alaska Airlines, Hurts and the PGA. 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And you know this, the 1:14:12.720 --> 1:14:16.599 subscription world keeps growing and evolving in Stripe, billing will 1:14:16.640 --> 1:14:20.679 help you keep pace. So if you're interested in learning 1:14:20.720 --> 1:14:25.879 more about Stripe, go to stripe dot com. Thanks to Stripe, 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:27.520 and now back to Mike Koprowski. 1:14:36.040 --> 1:14:37.720 So I, I, you know, I don't want to. 1:14:39.560 --> 1:14:43.080 You've worked with Kyle on pretty much all of your 1:14:43.120 --> 1:14:44.800 golf architecture projects. 1:14:44.840 --> 1:14:46.720 He was a part of this project. I think, like 1:14:47.240 --> 1:14:48.080 I think a lot. 1:14:47.920 --> 1:14:51.240 Of people will will say this is a Kyle Frans 1:14:51.479 --> 1:14:54.519 golf course. I think that that's kind of miss It's 1:14:55.040 --> 1:14:59.800 very much your golf course with Kyle, right from an 1:14:59.880 --> 1:15:02.360 ar text our standpoint, like it is a it is 1:15:02.400 --> 1:15:05.240 a co design, But like I think what generally happens 1:15:05.320 --> 1:15:08.360 is with co designs is like the name people no 1:15:08.520 --> 1:15:11.160 more are Usually they're going to say it's a Kyle 1:15:11.200 --> 1:15:13.880 Franz to die. Is it safe to say? Is it 1:15:14.000 --> 1:15:18.080 right to say that this is a true co design? 1:15:18.240 --> 1:15:20.599 If not more You're design than Kyle's. 1:15:21.240 --> 1:15:23.439 Yeah, I mean it's a true code design for sure. 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:27.920 I mean it's It was kind of strange, right because 1:15:28.080 --> 1:15:31.000 I was sort of wearing owner hat on this one, 1:15:31.040 --> 1:15:33.680 so it was like apprentice kind of calling the shots. Now, 1:15:33.920 --> 1:15:37.240 there was never any like you know, drop down arguments 1:15:37.240 --> 1:15:39.839 about stuff. I mean, we see things pretty pretty similarly. 1:15:39.880 --> 1:15:41.560 But and Kyle was deferential to that. I mean, he 1:15:41.600 --> 1:15:44.360 knew the risk that I that I took here. And 1:15:44.680 --> 1:15:48.639 you know, so you know, we're both classicalists. We both 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:50.920 love the old stuff. But you know, even under the 1:15:51.160 --> 1:15:53.479 classical umbrella, there's a spectrum, and Kyle and I are 1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:55.719 different enough to where there is a back and forth 1:15:56.320 --> 1:15:59.479 of ideas that that happened to. 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:03.719 Strike me knowing both of you is really like pretty 1:16:03.720 --> 1:16:05.040 opposite personalities. 1:16:05.479 --> 1:16:08.000 Yeah, so the way that I describe it to people 1:16:08.160 --> 1:16:12.120 is okay, so you have under the classical umbrella, let's 1:16:12.120 --> 1:16:14.960 say you have you have Shinnacock on one end of 1:16:14.960 --> 1:16:18.679 the spectrum and National on the other end of the spectrum. 1:16:18.000 --> 1:16:20.839 Both great, greatly, both great golf courses. 1:16:21.080 --> 1:16:25.520 Shinny is like the straightforward, stern old lady frank presentation, 1:16:25.720 --> 1:16:31.280 demanding questions, and National is the wily fun uncle capricious 1:16:31.360 --> 1:16:34.080 and humps and hollows and cork. You know, I guess 1:16:34.080 --> 1:16:36.519 the Scottish and Healgy would be Merefield in the old course. 1:16:36.600 --> 1:16:38.720 And so I mean, both Kyle and I consider on 1:16:38.800 --> 1:16:40.160 a table and talk about what we love about those 1:16:40.160 --> 1:16:42.439 golf courses all day long. But I bet if you 1:16:42.520 --> 1:16:46.000 put a gun to both of our heads, my initial 1:16:46.040 --> 1:16:49.600 design instincts are probably a little bit closer on the 1:16:49.600 --> 1:16:52.120 Shinnecock side of the spectrum, and Kyle's are probably a 1:16:52.120 --> 1:16:54.080 little bit closer to the National side. And so at 1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:56.599 room it was fun to like marry those two things. 1:16:56.640 --> 1:16:57.960 And I think people will see, I mean this is 1:16:58.080 --> 1:17:01.040 it's a very different golf course than cat Citrus Farms, 1:17:01.040 --> 1:17:02.440 for instance, which is very. 1:17:02.560 --> 1:17:04.280 High on the on the Wyley scale. 1:17:05.280 --> 1:17:07.080 And I think that's a reflection of the fact that, Yeah, 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:11.120 I mean it was a true co design and you know, ultimately, 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:13.600 you know, as the as the owner and the you know, 1:17:13.680 --> 1:17:15.280 the final decision maker. I mean it is a weird 1:17:15.320 --> 1:17:19.200 sort of George Crump impersonation of owner and and you 1:17:19.240 --> 1:17:22.479 know architect. But I mean, ultimately, you know, it came 1:17:22.520 --> 1:17:25.800 down to, you know, if there was a particular disagreement 1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:28.439 or particular thing, I mean, ultimately was my call as owner. 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:35.559 So but it was fundament it was fundamental design instincts basically. Yeah. 1:17:35.840 --> 1:17:38.120 Yeah, But I mean it never felt I mean, it 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:40.120 never felt like that because we're we've worked together for 1:17:40.120 --> 1:17:42.240 so long and we're friends and we see like the 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:45.960 number of differences that we have is relatively small. 1:17:45.760 --> 1:17:47.960 But yeah, it was. It was a unique It was 1:17:47.960 --> 1:17:49.120 a unique sort of environment. 1:17:49.600 --> 1:17:52.679 So what's what what is next for your career? 1:17:54.040 --> 1:17:57.599 And and what's next for would you say for group said, 1:17:57.680 --> 1:18:00.240 where where is it at and in the and the 1:18:00.240 --> 1:18:04.920 whole process of its evolution? And where are you at 1:18:05.000 --> 1:18:07.439 with with your career? This was a kind of I 1:18:07.439 --> 1:18:12.000 would say, a half step towards solo design. Yeah, yeah, 1:18:12.040 --> 1:18:16.960 maybe a half a large stuff towards golf developer, Like yeah, 1:18:17.000 --> 1:18:18.160 you know, like what. 1:18:18.280 --> 1:18:21.719 Yeah, I mean I think about, like through this whole experience, 1:18:21.720 --> 1:18:23.479 I think about, Okay, what did I like most? And 1:18:23.520 --> 1:18:27.200 it was certainly on the design side. The development side 1:18:27.280 --> 1:18:30.280 was was fun and I do it again in a heartbeat. 1:18:30.320 --> 1:18:32.880 But the real like what got me up in the 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:35.559 morning was like we canna put that bunker in on seven? 1:18:35.680 --> 1:18:36.720 You know? Are we are? 1:18:36.720 --> 1:18:38.600 We what we can do about the six screen? Like 1:18:38.640 --> 1:18:42.080 that's the stuff that I found most fun, And that's 1:18:42.120 --> 1:18:44.720 the stuff that at its core is what got me 1:18:44.760 --> 1:18:47.760 into this was a love of golf course design. So 1:18:47.800 --> 1:18:50.120 I think that that's a that's a bug that I 1:18:50.200 --> 1:18:52.880 have and I'll keep I'll keep riding that horse until 1:18:52.920 --> 1:18:55.599 she kicks me off. I don't know what exactly comes next. 1:18:55.640 --> 1:18:57.040 I haven't really had time to think about it. We 1:18:57.120 --> 1:18:58.960 just opened a couple of days ago, so I've just 1:18:59.000 --> 1:19:01.479 been go, go go. But you know, I hope there's 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:03.880 I hope there's more that that we can do with 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:06.800 broom Sedge. I hope that there's more outside of Broomsedge. 1:19:06.840 --> 1:19:08.320 I'm just like, I got the bug, and now I 1:19:08.320 --> 1:19:11.280 got to figure out what what comes next. In terms 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:13.000 of what's next for broom Sedge is you know, we'll 1:19:13.080 --> 1:19:15.719 keep filling out the membership roles. We got about ninety 1:19:15.760 --> 1:19:18.240 members right now, and we'll keep keep recruiting. I think 1:19:18.240 --> 1:19:20.559 the more that people see the golf course, the more 1:19:20.600 --> 1:19:23.440 buzz there is out there. And certainly our our inboxes 1:19:23.560 --> 1:19:25.679 has ticked up a lot in terms of member interest. 1:19:25.720 --> 1:19:28.120 We've gotten a lot of really really good feedback about 1:19:28.160 --> 1:19:31.439 the golf course. And then moving on to you know, 1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:35.400 just the vertical construction, and you know, it's a it's 1:19:35.400 --> 1:19:38.200 a largely national and regional membership, so making sure people 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:40.479 have places to stay and getting the clubhouse going and 1:19:40.479 --> 1:19:43.640 all that sort of stuff. So I think, you know, 1:19:43.680 --> 1:19:46.840 there's you know, everybody involved with this had a had 1:19:46.840 --> 1:19:49.880 a really good time doing it, and you know, if 1:19:49.880 --> 1:19:52.519 there's more opportunities to keep going with it, we'll probably 1:19:52.560 --> 1:19:55.120 keep going with it because it was pretty fun. 1:19:55.920 --> 1:19:56.760 So why I stop now? 1:19:57.840 --> 1:20:01.280 Yeah, it's what's what's you know, you've been open for 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:04.720 a couple of weeks, small, you know, small amount of 1:20:04.720 --> 1:20:05.880 groups going out every day. 1:20:05.960 --> 1:20:08.840 What's been your favorite piece of feedback. 1:20:08.360 --> 1:20:11.840 That you received? Yeah, I mean our most. 1:20:11.600 --> 1:20:14.240 Memorable moment of outside your home one. 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:19.160 Yeah. I just the people that come back and they say. 1:20:20.560 --> 1:20:22.800 What appeared to be hyperbolic things of like this is 1:20:22.800 --> 1:20:24.320 one of the greatest golf courses I've ever. 1:20:24.120 --> 1:20:26.759 Played, And I'm like, well, you know, yes, I'm the architect. 1:20:26.760 --> 1:20:27.960 Nobody's going to come up to me and say I 1:20:28.000 --> 1:20:30.320 hated this piece of shit, Like I know that that's 1:20:30.360 --> 1:20:32.840 not going to happen. But the feedback has actually been 1:20:32.880 --> 1:20:35.559 fairly overwhelming that people have been really really positive about it, 1:20:35.560 --> 1:20:38.360 particularly the green complexes, and people are like, these are 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:41.479 this is a world class set of greens. They're eighteen 1:20:41.560 --> 1:20:44.559 one act plays. They toe that balance between interesting and 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:47.519 never going over the top, and people have you know, 1:20:47.840 --> 1:20:50.200 I love that. I love when people are really specific 1:20:50.320 --> 1:20:53.320 about the golf course, like when they come back and 1:20:53.320 --> 1:20:54.880 they say, you know, the tea play, I played the 1:20:54.880 --> 1:20:57.360 white teast today and the tea placement on fourteen. I 1:20:57.360 --> 1:20:59.000 can't quit kick it over that, so maybe next time, 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:01.519 move it back, move it up. I like that level 1:21:01.520 --> 1:21:05.240 of specificity, and people are coming with that stuff. They're like, well, 1:21:05.280 --> 1:21:07.240 you know that, I like the better hear this pin 1:21:07.320 --> 1:21:09.320 placement I think work better than that pin placement. Or 1:21:09.320 --> 1:21:11.599 we should play the right green on six more than 1:21:11.600 --> 1:21:13.120 the left green on six, or something like that. 1:21:13.360 --> 1:21:13.599 Love. 1:21:13.880 --> 1:21:17.439 I love that stuff, and that's that's what it's all about, 1:21:17.600 --> 1:21:19.800 you know, is when people experience the thing that you 1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:22.000 built and they come back and they share their thoughts 1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:22.360 on it. 1:21:23.200 --> 1:21:25.519 The I agree. 1:21:25.600 --> 1:21:28.600 One of my favorite I was out there one of 1:21:28.600 --> 1:21:31.600 the days early on. One of my favorite things was 1:21:31.640 --> 1:21:35.760 seeing it was it was your opening day and seeing. 1:21:37.320 --> 1:21:38.759 A husband and wife member. 1:21:39.680 --> 1:21:42.760 They teed off early on, and then my favorite thing 1:21:42.800 --> 1:21:45.599 is that we got done playing and I see them 1:21:45.640 --> 1:21:48.280 going out to play more golf like that. 1:21:48.280 --> 1:21:52.360 That's a great side. Yeah, Like Husband of Life play 1:21:52.400 --> 1:21:53.679 eighteen wasn't enough. 1:21:53.720 --> 1:21:57.160 They're going to get more, like perfect side like to me, 1:21:57.360 --> 1:21:59.880 Like it's as simple as that. Like I got done 1:21:59.920 --> 1:22:01.880 with the golf course, I wanted to play more golf 1:22:02.040 --> 1:22:04.200 Like that, that's the best sign you can have. And 1:22:04.280 --> 1:22:07.120 I completely echo the greens, like I think like one 1:22:07.120 --> 1:22:10.519 of the things that I was I was most impressed by, 1:22:10.720 --> 1:22:12.800 Like I had heard a lot of things about the land, 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:14.920 heard it was a great piece of land from a 1:22:14.920 --> 1:22:15.600 lot of people that. 1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:16.560 Had seen it. 1:22:16.600 --> 1:22:19.400 But what I really liked the most was was the greens. 1:22:19.479 --> 1:22:22.600 They were none of them felt uninteresting and none of 1:22:22.640 --> 1:22:25.360 them felt over the top. And I loved the idea, 1:22:25.439 --> 1:22:28.000 the simplicity of a lot of them where there was 1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:31.400 generally like kind of a central feature that was varied 1:22:31.840 --> 1:22:36.920 different and in different locations that influenced the entire green Yeah. 1:22:37.120 --> 1:22:38.680 Yeah, And we tried really hard on that. 1:22:38.680 --> 1:22:40.599 I mean, the land did so much work from from 1:22:40.640 --> 1:22:43.640 tee to green, so we spent the vast majority of 1:22:43.680 --> 1:22:48.000 our time just focused on green concepts. And yeah, I 1:22:48.000 --> 1:22:51.840 mean I think the greens are are you know, they're 1:22:51.920 --> 1:22:54.640 they're fascinating, but in in often subtle ways, you know, 1:22:55.160 --> 1:22:57.679 And that's that's what I really like. I love greens 1:22:57.720 --> 1:23:01.200 that rely on you know, slope and tilt more so 1:23:01.320 --> 1:23:04.960 than like big in your face undulations. And I just 1:23:05.000 --> 1:23:06.599 that's that's kind of what I wanted out of this. 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:08.800 I mean, I love all types of different styles, but 1:23:08.840 --> 1:23:11.000 that was sort of like that. That's kind of my 1:23:11.080 --> 1:23:13.280 go to. That's what I love the most. I love 1:23:13.439 --> 1:23:15.840 when I mean, I play number two as much as 1:23:15.880 --> 1:23:18.200 I can because of that very reason where I don't. 1:23:18.360 --> 1:23:20.479 I never miss a putt by like six feet because 1:23:20.479 --> 1:23:23.200 it hit one side of a buried elephant's ass and 1:23:23.240 --> 1:23:24.880 it went the other way like I miss putts at 1:23:24.920 --> 1:23:28.240 number two by two inches right or two inches left, 1:23:28.280 --> 1:23:30.439 and I just don't understand, and supposed to break through 1:23:30.479 --> 1:23:34.200 the board. It's maddening and I love it, and it's 1:23:34.280 --> 1:23:37.639 endlessly fascinating. And I think that I'm a big believer 1:23:37.760 --> 1:23:41.840 in what Keith Richards said about music. So you know, 1:23:41.840 --> 1:23:43.040 the most interesting music. 1:23:43.280 --> 1:23:46.120 The music we're going to have you come back for music, 1:23:46.200 --> 1:23:48.080 golfs to extravaganza. 1:23:48.479 --> 1:23:51.800 It's there's so many parallels. But he said the most 1:23:51.800 --> 1:23:54.400 interesting thing about a song is what notes you don't play. 1:23:54.840 --> 1:23:57.320 You know, your your canvas is silence, and you don't 1:23:57.320 --> 1:23:58.639 have to fill it with everything. 1:23:58.840 --> 1:24:00.719 And I just I'm not like that. 1:24:00.720 --> 1:24:03.360 That's not my style where you know, like we've all 1:24:03.360 --> 1:24:05.680 been to those golf courses where they it's just it 1:24:05.720 --> 1:24:07.400 feels like they bang the drums as loud as they 1:24:07.400 --> 1:24:11.080 possibly could for eighteen holes and that's fun. But it's 1:24:11.120 --> 1:24:13.160 just not it's not really my style, and it's not 1:24:13.200 --> 1:24:16.360 the stuff that I want to play day in and 1:24:16.479 --> 1:24:19.519 day out. I love the subtleties that reveal themselves over time. 1:24:19.560 --> 1:24:21.800 It's not the stuff that smash in the face and 1:24:21.840 --> 1:24:23.800 reveals itself on the first go round. I love the 1:24:23.840 --> 1:24:27.360 stuff that just endlessly, you know, endlessly fascinates you. 1:24:27.840 --> 1:24:28.240 I think. 1:24:28.439 --> 1:24:31.760 I so this is I think like early on my 1:24:31.960 --> 1:24:35.200 journey looking at golf courses, I used to think, man, 1:24:35.880 --> 1:24:39.320 look at how bold that that took stones to build that, 1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:40.559 and that's a crazy green. 1:24:41.080 --> 1:24:41.439 Yeah. 1:24:41.560 --> 1:24:45.519 Now I would say, like, now what I look at 1:24:45.680 --> 1:24:48.599 is like this happens a lot at like Bill Corps 1:24:48.960 --> 1:24:54.080 golf courses, where I'll see this just like beautiful, understated 1:24:54.479 --> 1:24:57.000 yeah hole that like a lot of people might be like, 1:24:57.240 --> 1:24:59.479 I don't, I don't really know what's going on, but 1:24:59.520 --> 1:25:01.800 it's like, oh, there's just this little bump in the 1:25:01.840 --> 1:25:05.240 green and it's like a very fun hole to play, 1:25:05.280 --> 1:25:08.760 and this bump just like just rex like it. It 1:25:08.880 --> 1:25:12.000 influences everything else on the hole. And there's one bunker 1:25:12.080 --> 1:25:15.360 on the left side and it's modestly flat ground and 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:17.320 you're just like, you walk off the green and you're 1:25:17.360 --> 1:25:20.360 just like, man, what a nice gentle golfle. 1:25:20.400 --> 1:25:23.720 And I think, like, it takes so so. 1:25:24.000 --> 1:25:28.960 Much confidence to build something that simple, like and be 1:25:29.200 --> 1:25:32.200 confident that it's going to have enough interest that people 1:25:32.200 --> 1:25:35.479 aren't just like that is a nothing burger, right right, ye, 1:25:35.680 --> 1:25:38.599 Like that takes more confidence in my mind than building 1:25:38.640 --> 1:25:39.559 something wild. 1:25:40.800 --> 1:25:41.519 I totally agree. 1:25:41.520 --> 1:25:43.080 And you know, I got to give a shout out 1:25:43.120 --> 1:25:45.599 to Joe Hancock, who is our lead shaper and really 1:25:45.600 --> 1:25:48.160 a key thinker and all this. And Joe was like, 1:25:48.400 --> 1:25:50.360 Joe's a seasoned old cat. I mean, he's been doing 1:25:50.360 --> 1:25:53.040 this for a long time. And Joe was a really 1:25:53.600 --> 1:25:55.519 great voice to have on the project. And Joe was, 1:25:55.840 --> 1:25:58.120 you know, a voice of saying that's enough, like we 1:25:58.960 --> 1:26:01.519 there is intrigue in that. You know, the ball's going 1:26:01.600 --> 1:26:03.240 to do what you wanted to do. You don't need 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:06.519 to make it bigger. And Joe was just like, you know, 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:10.919 Joe was the stately the elder statesman of the project 1:26:10.960 --> 1:26:13.040 that just was like the steady hand through it all 1:26:13.360 --> 1:26:16.240 and was oftentimes very reassuring of like we've done enough here, 1:26:16.360 --> 1:26:18.600 let's let's move on. This is going to work. And 1:26:18.680 --> 1:26:21.240 Joe was Joe was out there on opening day walking. 1:26:22.240 --> 1:26:24.680 I love this. I was good. This is exactly what 1:26:24.720 --> 1:26:27.639 I was going to say. I loved I like, you. 1:26:27.600 --> 1:26:31.560 Know this, there's this guy walking around with his wife. Yeah, 1:26:31.600 --> 1:26:34.240 and I'm I don't know, I've never met Joe Hancock 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:37.800 like I've known of and I'm just like, hey, how's 1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:41.000 it going. He's like, oh, I just just he was 1:26:41.040 --> 1:26:43.360 just out watching people play the golf course that he 1:26:43.640 --> 1:26:44.439 that he helped build. 1:26:44.479 --> 1:26:47.200 Like that's like that tells you everything you need to 1:26:47.240 --> 1:26:50.679 know about like what what he's interested in. He probably 1:26:50.720 --> 1:26:52.920 thought about, how's this hole going to work? How Like 1:26:53.080 --> 1:26:53.800 he saw I was. 1:26:53.760 --> 1:26:56.240 In the in the bunker on the on the boundary 1:26:56.240 --> 1:27:00.919 hole fourteen or fifteen fifteen fifteen, the boundary hole driveable 1:27:00.960 --> 1:27:03.280 par for Obi Wright. I hit it in the left 1:27:03.280 --> 1:27:05.759 bunker and He's like, Oh, that's gonna be a really hard. 1:27:05.520 --> 1:27:06.439 Shot, you know. 1:27:06.840 --> 1:27:09.080 Like he was just like he was so excited to 1:27:09.120 --> 1:27:12.040 see the shot that he'd probably thought about a million times. 1:27:12.360 --> 1:27:13.439 Yeah, you know, yeah, play out. 1:27:13.520 --> 1:27:13.840 Joe. 1:27:13.920 --> 1:27:16.960 He's he's a true believer. I mean he loves he 1:27:17.000 --> 1:27:19.240 loves this stuff. And I mean we went we went 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:22.080 out to lunch. A couple couple of days after that, 1:27:22.200 --> 1:27:23.920 he was still kind of hanging around and he still 1:27:23.920 --> 1:27:25.920 had thoughts about the golf course. Oh you know that 1:27:25.960 --> 1:27:27.920 cross has around seventeen. I think the broom said just 1:27:27.920 --> 1:27:29.519 a little too high there, go and go and trim 1:27:29.560 --> 1:27:33.080 that down. Like he's still one hundred percent invested in 1:27:33.120 --> 1:27:37.439 the golf course, loves it, and was just like, you know, 1:27:37.520 --> 1:27:42.320 really the glue, the on site glue that that made 1:27:42.760 --> 1:27:44.120 you know a lot of what we did possible and 1:27:44.120 --> 1:27:45.000 a lot of the ideas that. 1:27:44.960 --> 1:27:46.559 We have out there. That that's Joe Hancock. 1:27:46.640 --> 1:27:49.320 I mean, you know the way that the way that 1:27:49.400 --> 1:27:51.080 Joe and I worked was it was like, all right, 1:27:51.120 --> 1:27:53.519 you know, here's here's two or three concepts. Here's kind 1:27:53.560 --> 1:27:54.920 of what I want to see out of this green 1:27:55.040 --> 1:27:57.639 and they were you know, go to town and sometimes 1:27:57.680 --> 1:27:59.679 it was a walk off, you know, like fifteen green 1:27:59.800 --> 1:28:02.760 was like we got that one next, and then other 1:28:02.800 --> 1:28:04.360 times we struggled a little bit more with it, like 1:28:04.400 --> 1:28:07.240 eight Green you know where we you know, I felt 1:28:07.280 --> 1:28:08.800 like I alway need to do something else at it. 1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:11.720 But that's that's kind of how works. So so much 1:28:11.800 --> 1:28:14.679 of what's cool out there is you know, Joe Hancock 1:28:14.760 --> 1:28:16.680 behind the behind the steering wheel. So he was a 1:28:17.280 --> 1:28:18.280 massive asset to this. 1:28:19.439 --> 1:28:23.280 All right, let's close this out with a couple a 1:28:23.320 --> 1:28:28.439 couple of music questions. See what's your favorite music to 1:28:28.560 --> 1:28:28.960 shape to? 1:28:30.920 --> 1:28:37.200 Uh? Man, it depends on what I'm shaping. If it's 1:28:37.240 --> 1:28:41.280 like an aggressive type feature, then it's like Hell's Bells 1:28:41.320 --> 1:28:46.040 a CVC. If it's a tamer thing, then it's like 1:28:46.160 --> 1:28:47.559 Springsteen Tunnel of Love. 1:28:47.840 --> 1:28:48.120 You know. 1:28:48.320 --> 1:28:51.400 It's like that's so it depends on what I'm shaping. 1:28:51.520 --> 1:28:53.040 I sort of go into something. 1:28:52.760 --> 1:28:55.000 And the music matches what you're what you're doing. 1:28:55.120 --> 1:28:58.400 Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And sometimes I'm totally wrong. 1:28:59.240 --> 1:29:01.880 It's like the baby you say, Hell's Bells, It just 1:29:01.920 --> 1:29:03.040 like rins through your head. 1:29:04.080 --> 1:29:05.280 Yeah, And sometimes you're wrong. 1:29:05.400 --> 1:29:08.280 Sometimes it's like, Oh, I might have gone too far 1:29:08.360 --> 1:29:10.120 on that bunker. What the hell was I thinking? I 1:29:10.120 --> 1:29:11.880 shouldn't have put on Hell's Bells, I should have put 1:29:11.920 --> 1:29:14.400 on Tunnel a Love but yeah, it's sort of what 1:29:14.439 --> 1:29:15.320 I'm about to shape. 1:29:15.479 --> 1:29:18.040 It dictates the song and then. 1:29:18.840 --> 1:29:21.920 Favorite song. 1:29:23.479 --> 1:29:27.200 Golf course comp like where like this golf course feels 1:29:27.240 --> 1:29:27.960 like this song. 1:29:28.280 --> 1:29:31.519 If you have one, hmmm, I can give you one 1:29:31.560 --> 1:29:34.479 of mine. Yeah, I mean I wrote. 1:29:34.240 --> 1:29:37.280 This article once and Garrett was like, it is way 1:29:37.280 --> 1:29:40.080 too n niche for nobody's going. 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:42.639 To care about this. Yeah, I wrote, I wrote this out. 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:45.400 I remember, I was so excited about it, and he's like, 1:29:45.439 --> 1:29:47.080 you know what, I don't think we should publish. 1:29:49.880 --> 1:29:52.280 So of course nobody's played. 1:29:52.360 --> 1:29:54.840 East Hampton, I've always said, is like Band on the 1:29:54.920 --> 1:30:00.599 Run because they have farmland, Like there's a farm section, 1:30:01.040 --> 1:30:04.559 there's like this in between section, and then you go 1:30:04.640 --> 1:30:09.040 into like a pine like a like a mature sand 1:30:09.120 --> 1:30:12.400 dune forest for nine holes, and it's like the three 1:30:12.479 --> 1:30:13.880 stages of Band on the Run. 1:30:14.479 --> 1:30:16.599 Yeah, that's a good complimation, Like none. 1:30:16.400 --> 1:30:20.519 Of them really feel the coldest, but at the end 1:30:20.560 --> 1:30:23.439 you're like, you know what that worked? That worked for me. 1:30:23.960 --> 1:30:27.240 Yeah, A day in the life, I mean with the Beatles, 1:30:27.240 --> 1:30:30.439 that's another kind of three. Pamir is a good one 1:30:30.479 --> 1:30:32.320 for that, Like Pamier is another place where you have 1:30:32.360 --> 1:30:34.000 like parkland, and then it goes to Heathland and then 1:30:34.000 --> 1:30:35.280 it goes to links Dunelands. 1:30:36.080 --> 1:30:38.800 So yeah, oh man, this is this is tough. 1:30:38.840 --> 1:30:44.360 I mean, I I I guess another one I have 1:30:44.520 --> 1:30:45.599 is like Posita Tiempo. 1:30:45.720 --> 1:30:49.080 You could do like Hotel California, because it's just like 1:30:49.479 --> 1:30:52.600 the song, like you're it's really pleasant and then it 1:30:52.760 --> 1:30:56.600 just like ends just wailing out. Yes, like like the 1:30:57.000 --> 1:30:58.920 last half of the song, you're like, holy shit. 1:30:59.240 --> 1:30:59.880 Yeah. 1:31:00.200 --> 1:31:03.959 Maybe I guess for Broom, maybe it's like uh uh, 1:31:04.560 --> 1:31:07.040 you know, born to Run or something I don't know, 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:08.120 or like smells like teen. 1:31:08.000 --> 1:31:11.400 Spirit because yeah it starts it starts. 1:31:11.160 --> 1:31:13.960 Yeah, yeah, it starts hot or like I mean it 1:31:14.000 --> 1:31:16.519 smells like Teen Spirit was the first song on the 1:31:16.680 --> 1:31:18.360 you know, on the album there. So it comes out, 1:31:18.520 --> 1:31:19.960 it comes out swinging. 1:31:21.080 --> 1:31:22.600 Like I never know if it should be. 1:31:23.200 --> 1:31:26.479 You compare it like album or song, right, yeah, like 1:31:26.520 --> 1:31:28.880 because you could do. You could get like if you 1:31:28.960 --> 1:31:31.639 got really into it like you do the album. It's 1:31:31.760 --> 1:31:33.879 just like you're narrowing the audience. 1:31:34.400 --> 1:31:40.720 Yeah we've lost everybody already. Yeah yeah. 1:31:40.760 --> 1:31:44.120 Maybe, Like I mean, there's like Nebraska. I'm a big 1:31:44.160 --> 1:31:48.720 Springsteen guy, so like huge, Oh yeah, I got a 1:31:48.760 --> 1:31:50.240 Springsty shirt on right now. I don't know if you 1:31:50.240 --> 1:31:52.960 can see it, but I'm always I'm always sporting. 1:31:52.680 --> 1:31:55.000 Spring I'll hold back my boss. 1:31:55.720 --> 1:31:57.840 I know, I know I'm in the minority there. 1:31:58.960 --> 1:32:01.120 Just I'm a boss. This overrated guy. 1:32:01.360 --> 1:32:04.519 Yeah, Cody is. Cody is too. Cody gives me sh 1:32:04.640 --> 1:32:05.160 about the Boston. 1:32:05.240 --> 1:32:06.599 Cody is a big music guy. 1:32:06.800 --> 1:32:08.600 He is, he is, but he's not He's not a 1:32:08.640 --> 1:32:09.880 Springsteen guy for sure. 1:32:11.840 --> 1:32:12.080 Yeah. 1:32:12.240 --> 1:32:13.840 Maybe I don't know like some of the more like 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:16.679 the you know, the low key places I always think about, 1:32:16.720 --> 1:32:21.280 like Nebraska, just really austere and really basic, I mean 1:32:21.360 --> 1:32:24.120 recorded on a you know, a shitty recorder, and you know, 1:32:24.920 --> 1:32:26.840 I just think of like some of the some of 1:32:26.880 --> 1:32:29.479 the kind of the you know, the Scottish, the Scottish 1:32:29.479 --> 1:32:31.160 places like a Pamer or something where. 1:32:31.000 --> 1:32:33.280 It's really austere and just really really solid. 1:32:33.040 --> 1:32:35.880 But nothing nothing in your face, nothing big, It's just 1:32:36.200 --> 1:32:39.760 it's just in its ross elements. So I'll have to 1:32:39.800 --> 1:32:40.519 think more about that. 1:32:40.680 --> 1:32:42.400 Yeah, it's you got time. 1:32:42.600 --> 1:32:44.639 The good news is, you know, I know I've got 1:32:44.680 --> 1:32:46.280 We've gotten very narrow here. 1:32:47.200 --> 1:32:48.760 Anybody that's listening. 1:32:48.400 --> 1:32:52.599 At an hour and twenty six, yeah, is in the bucket. 1:32:52.720 --> 1:32:57.719 So Mike, thank you for joining us chatting. I'm excited 1:32:57.760 --> 1:33:02.200 to see both your career and UH and Broom Savage evolve. 1:33:02.400 --> 1:33:06.599 And congratulations on UH on getting getting your dream built. 1:33:06.680 --> 1:33:08.080 It's amazing accomplishment. 1:33:08.400 --> 1:33:11.320 Yeah, thanks man, appreciate it, Appreciate you having me on 1:33:11.400 --> 1:33:12.639 and hopefully we did it again. 1:33:12.680 --> 1:33:13.200 This was fun. 1:33:13.479 --> 1:33:26.880 Yeah, all right, that does it for another edition of 1:33:26.920 --> 1:33:29.840 the Friday Golf Podcast. Big thanks to PJ Clark for 1:33:30.000 --> 1:33:32.960 editing and producing this podcast while he was on the 1:33:33.040 --> 1:33:35.960 road in UH in Phoenix for the Champions Tour event. 1:33:36.040 --> 1:33:38.639 If you want to learn more about that, check out 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:42.880 a shotgun started the latest episode there. We will be 1:33:42.960 --> 1:33:46.640 back later this week with another episode. I'm probably going 1:33:46.720 --> 1:33:49.120 to do something a little different for that one. We 1:33:49.160 --> 1:33:52.120 are we have our company off site this week, so 1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:54.880 we have everybody in our company in one spot. I 1:33:54.960 --> 1:33:58.080 might do a little question question session with some of 1:33:58.120 --> 1:34:01.320 our team members. So big thanks, and we'll be back 1:34:01.439 --> 1:34:04.959 Thursday with another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast.