WEBVTT - Partition with Neha Aziz 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:07.000 Hi, everyone, this is Sharene and you're listening to it 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.360 can happen here? It could? I always miss up the 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:11.959 name of this podcast, and it's really embarrassing because I 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.720 work on it. It could happen here. Um not, it 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.599 can happen here, the same words to me in my 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.599 head though. Anyway. We're joined today by I Guess that 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.400 I previously had on the podcast that I co host 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:26.639 Ethnically Ambiguous, and she has a podcast coming out that 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.240 is super important and I'm excited to talk about what 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.760 it's about and the podcast itself. Joining me today are 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:41.080 Garrison and Chris and our guest nihasse Hi. Hello, Hey, hello, welcome, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.720 Thank you, Welcome to the show. So you're you have 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:50.960 a new podcast called Partition. Can you explain what that's about? Yes? 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.520 So Partition tells the story of the separation of India 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:59.600 and the formation of Pakistan that took place in on 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.720 Monday Day, well Sunday Monday, because I happened at midnight, 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:08.280 celebrated its seventy five anniversary this year. Um. So it's 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.280 quite a large event that most people don't really know about. 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.360 I myself didn't really know the specifics of it until 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.160 I first went back to Pakistan where I was born 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:23.040 and Cratchy um. But basically Britain was like, hey, we're 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.759 out of money, we can't control India anymore, We're gonna leave. 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.880 And in that process, they were going to transfer the 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.320 power UH to India and they were gonna they were 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.440 going to have independence. And then all these other politicians 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.640 kind of came in the picture and wanted their own 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:48.120 personal agendas and UH Pakistan would be the Muslim dominion 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.960 while India would be the Hindu Sikh dominion. And basically 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.240 within this process it was such a rushed job that 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.480 fourteen million people were uprooted, wanted, two million people died. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.400 You know. Um, the boundary line actually wasn't announced until 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.680 a few days after independence happened, so no one knew 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:12.040 like what where they were in what country? Um. So 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.200 it was just like a lot of confusion, a lot 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.799 of violence, a lot of just a lot of mess 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.480 that happened. And you know, a lot of the survivors 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.840 are quite old now. My grandfather's a survivor. He's he 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.919 was fourteen when it happened, so he's eighty nine now. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:28.919 And so the only way we can really get these 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.200 stories are through oral histories, and I never really learned 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.000 about it in school and because my parents didn't tell 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:36.760 me about it. Again, like I said, I didn't really 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:38.720 know about it for a long time. So if I 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.119 don't know about it, um, and this is like my 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:46.320 history and my family, UM, I'm sure there are many 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.400 other people who don't know about it. Well. I definitely 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.040 was very uninformed before you came on to the other 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.000 podcast technically ambiguous. I'm gonna stop saying it because it 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.720 sounds like I'm plugging it, but I'm not. UM, But also, 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:04.240 go listen to it. Thanks, I appreciate that. But but no, 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.960 I do think it's really important because it's absurd the 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.560 huge historical events that are like kept out of what 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:15.720 we were taught in history class, if you can even 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.720 call it that. UM. But but yeah, I think it's 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.560 really important to know about this huge thing that happened 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:28.680 in our recent history that created these two countries. UM. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.800 Can you tell us what the process was making this 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.640 podcast for you and like what research you did and 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.160 we like just the steps leading up to it. Yeah. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:44.440 So I originally wanted to make this UM story into 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.480 a limited narrative series, but I didn't really know how 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.360 that would happen. Um. And I don't have like an 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.120 agent or anything like that, but it was just a 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.280 project I wanted to work on. But it's such a 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.440 vast event. I was like, I don't know, like where 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.960 I would even start. Um. And then a couple of 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.440 months later, I saw um that our Heart Radio was 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.480 creating a program called Next Up. And that's when the 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.120 idea for the podcast came along, and I was like, 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.080 you know, podcasts are a really good way for people 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.800 to digest information. Um. It's a lot more accessible, I 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.520 think than other forms of media. It doesn't cost any money. Um. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.840 You can download it in a number of ways, you 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.360 can listen to it in a number of ways. UM. 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.400 So I thought that might be a good place to start, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.320 and I ended up getting accepted into the program. And 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.400 it's it's still like a lot of work, and it's 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.520 a lot of just it's a lot of draining work, um, 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.440 because you have all these like horrible facts written in 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.520 like one Google dog that you're saying to people because 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.200 I outlined them, and then I write a script because 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.320 it's mostly a lot of my narration with interview sprinkled in. 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.880 But the first thing I did is Um. I talked 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:02.080 to family, I talked to my grandpa. I talked to 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.039 my great aunt who was actually born the day of independence. Um. Yeah, 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.680 so Sunday, Monday, but just in case the day is 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.840 not yes, August fourteenth, August fifteen, so this year it 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.159 happened to be a Sunday in a Monday. And you know, 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.720 so I asked her what stories people told her? I 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.799 asked my mom. We went to an exhibit in Pakistan 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.120 that's kind of what spurred everything for partition for me, 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.400 and we talked about our experiences there. I had, like 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.000 my dad do some voice over for my grandpa because 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.960 the our connection wasn't the best. He's in Pakistan. We 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.480 recorded it via WhatsApp on a pad track recorder and 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.800 it's it was like it's very loud over there. There's 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.599 you know, birds chirping constantly. It was just like a 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.520 it was a situation. Um. But I just started reading 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.640 books and then I started talking to a lot of 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.280 people and I ended up talking to an author named 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.200 Nisida Jari, whose book I referenced quite a bit in 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:02.159 the second episode, which drops Monday eight twenty two. And 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.720 you know, the first thing he told me was you 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.480 can't cover everything. So once you understand that that's going 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:10.880 to be the case, and it's going to be a 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.560 lot easier, and it's true, like you can't cover everything. 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.800 And I kind of struggled a lot with the narrative 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.000 I wanted to tell because so many of the stories 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.600 out there are very biased. There's a lot of you know, 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.880 like the great men in history stories which I don't 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.799 care about, and I just wanted to tell the facts. 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.200 But I quickly discovered that's really hard because this is 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.640 my history, this is my story. This is something that 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:41.880 impacts my family for um, future generations, and my identity 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.720 without a doubt. So I was like, let me kind 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:50.000 of do it with the lens of discovery. UM. And 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.120 I wanted to tell the stories that people don't really 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.120 hear about. So I didn't want to talk about like 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.640 meetings that happened in libraries and what ever between like 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.279 all these politicians. I literally don't care about that. But 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.760 I wanted to talk about, um, the way women were treated. 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.520 It is thought that seventy to a hundred thousand women 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.480 were raped, abducted, murdered. I wanted to talk about I 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:18.080 wanted to talk to artists, and creatives who had kind 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.920 of like a reckoning with this history and then use 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.760 their work to teach people about it. So an artist 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:28.600 who reframes the narrative with her pieces and talks about 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:35.400 the actual people that affected a filmmaker, oral historians, uh, survivors. Um, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.040 that's the stories that I wanted to tell. I didn't 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.760 want it to be um, something you would get like 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.280 on the History Channel, which is totally fine. That's great, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.559 there's an audience for that, but that just isn't something 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:51.160 that I wanted to do. You're not doing a whole 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.160 bunch of ancient aliens then. Now. I did watch an 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.080 episode of Doctor Who that talks about partition, and I 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.240 think they are like aliens or something in there. So 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:06.200 there is something thrown in there about some sci fi stuff. 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.720 Though I'm fascinated to see how Doctor Who handles partition. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.400 I mean it was actually done really well. It was 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.559 written by Yeah, it was written by South Asian person 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.080 and so that was like the first uh thing that 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.680 I saw in my research that really kind of showcase 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.880 like the emotion and and the things that people went through. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.400 And I didn't see any British people besides like the 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.640 people that originally came on the mission or whatever. So 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.160 that was nice. Um. But yeah, like there there was 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.400 a sci fi element. I can't tell you what that 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.640 was about, but that aside, it was actually something that, 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.200 um that people told me about. When I mentioned partition, 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.160 They're like, oh, there's this episode of Doctor Who. So 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.959 I've only seen that one episode, but I think it 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:54.800 in the in my research. It was the first thing 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.319 where I was like, Okay, this actually tells a perspective 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.080 from the people of South Asia. Wow, let's get to 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:05.880 know it was written by a South Asian person. At 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:10.720 first I was like, I'm not even going to touch that. Yeah. 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:18.679 Up next, Stephen Moffatt writes about apartheiz, So, I'm curious 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.599 you mentioned not including like including some things but not 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.240 other things. What what like how did you decide what 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.480 to include and what not to include? Yeah, so in 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.760 a way you can say, like the actual history is 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.520 maybe the least important part I think of the podcast. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.000 Like I talk about like events, like there's something called 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.640 direct Action Day that happened about a year before the 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.040 boundary line was announced, where Mohammad Ali Jinna, the future 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.040 founder of Pakistan, kind of called on Muslims to be 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.679 to to kind of have demonstrations, but it was kind 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:00.480 of unclear what exactly that meant. And massive looting carnage 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.760 took place, and I talked about that and how that 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.720 was like a big catalyst for partition. But I didn't 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.080 want to like get into like this treaty and this 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.920 event and like this meeting and whatever, because that information 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.200 is out there if people want to know. And like 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.400 I had mentioned, that's not really the aspects um that 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.160 I took particular interest in. I wanted to talk about 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.480 women and survivors and just you know, I felt I 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.520 found it to be very common people who are my 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.000 age and I just turned thirty two. Um, I guess 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.920 millennials you could say, Um, their parents and family don't 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.199 talk to them about it. So it's been really interesting 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:42.840 to talk to people who are my age, who are 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.200 older than me, who are younger than me have very 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:51.400 similar experiences and how they found out about this information. UM. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.160 So those are the kind of things I wanted to 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:57.000 focus on because you know, a lot of our stories, 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.360 uh from minority communities, um, that are out there in 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.480 like mainstream media, are rarely told from our perspectives they're 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:10.280 told from somebody else, and so I wanted I wanted 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.800 this story to come from me and from other people 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:19.079 who um have just different experiences with partition, whether they 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.800 lived through it, whether they're an oral historian, whether they 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.520 write a fictional novel about it to cope with their trauma. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.560 Which I interviewed a woman who did do that. She 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.719 was four years old when it happened, and she disassociated 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.760 herself a lot with partition until she wrote about until 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.920 she wrote about it in this fictionalized novel. UM. So 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.480 it's And I wanted to talk about what forms of 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:42.280 media were also out there, which is why I watched 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.760 that Doctor Who episode. I also watched Gandhi three hours 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.600 of my Life I'm never going to get back. Um terrible, 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.400 so not great. Um, you know I love Richard and 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.200 Borro like Durasser Park is great, but like this, this 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:59.040 wasn't it. This wasn't it. Um. So I wanted to 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.559 I wanted to point people in that direction where if 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.719 you actually wanted to dig deeper into this information, like 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.679 here's where you should go, Like don't don't watch Gandhi, Um, 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.600 like don't watch I mean, I love the Crown, but 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:15.520 I mean, like, let's be real, like, you know, like 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.800 if they mentioned I think India once in the pilot episode, 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.440 um where and it took place about three months after 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.599 partition happened, and Prince Philip is getting married to Queen Elizabeth, 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.240 and um, what's his name? Winston Churchill is walking and 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.000 he sees Lord Mountbatten, who was tasked with the separation 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:42.200 of India, who was also Prince Philip's uncle, and Winston 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.600 Churchill goes, oh, that's the man who gave India away. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.680 And I'm like, that's not really what happened, but okay, 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.920 and that's the only thing that they say. Um. But 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.080 I do love period jamas and I do love Corgis, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.839 which is one of the main reasons I watched The Crown. Um. 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.280 But yeah, so I want sorry one Pats the actually 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:07.319 got whacked for the IRA at the seventies, right, yes Jesus, yes, yeah, 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.800 I actually didn't know that until I watched The Crown, so, uh, 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.200 you know, um, because again that wasn't really I wasn't 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.760 really looking into him and his history. I don't care, 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.480 but I ended up seeing it in the crowd. Um. Yeah, 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.720 so I just I really wanted to focus on South 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.680 Asians and like our story and working through how real 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.720 generational trauma is and kind of reclaiming our narrative with 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.120 um just kind of the truth. And you know, something 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.480 that popped up when I was creating kind of getting 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.679 deeper into the podcast was Miss Marvel. I knew it 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:46.880 was going to follow a Muslim woman, which I was like, great, 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.000 but I didn't know that they would talk about partition 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.600 and how that was like a major plot point. And 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:53.600 so people are starting to learn about the history because 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.520 of that show, which is amazing. UM. So if I 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.000 can kind of add on to that and expand uh 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.360 people's education, I think that's great. Something else I also 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.520 wanted to do was I want people to have empathy 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.440 and sympathy for immigrants and refugees, especially ones that don't 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.560 look like them, um, because we come in all colors 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.360 and sizes, and you know, I think their response to 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.560 Ukraine Ukrainian refugees in the UK was great, but I 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.720 don't really think that same courtesy was extended to refugees 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:30.120 from Syria. And I think that's really important because I'm 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:31.960 an immigrant. It took quite a long time for me 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.400 to become a citizen twenty five years. So, um, and 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.800 it's very hard, and it's something that people don't know about, 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.280 and so I just kind of want I want people 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:45.320 to care about things that don't directly affect them, which 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:50.080 I think is very much like an American rooted thing. Um. 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.320 And so I really I mean, I don't think my 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.400 podcast is going to change that, but if I can, 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.640 but if people can look outside themselves, um with this, 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:04.080 I think that would be really great. Yeah, totally before 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.040 I forget and I want to make Daniel's day, let's 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:29.200 take a quick commercial break and we'll be right back. Okay, 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.760 and we're back. Um. One of the things I was wondering, 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.840 what do you actually think about the way that I 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.680 smartvil like did like talked about partition because I saw 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.200 a lot of I don't know, I saw a lot 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:50.280 of conflicting sort of arguments about it. Yeah, so I 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:57.000 liked it. Um. But I'm also I think when you're 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.640 our minority and you see something that has affected you 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.560 and your family or has oppressed you, you expect this 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:12.640 art form to talk about every single thing, you know, um, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.160 because that is a burden that we bear as creative 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.240 artists of color, that if we don't talk about every 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.360 single thing that's the press of the community, then it's 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.920 not worth our time. It's kind of like the mantra 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.240 that we have UM. And for me, I'm like, this 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.240 show is six episodes, like what like, you know, you 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.840 need to understand that that is not something that that 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.520 they can encapsulate in there while talking about all these 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.960 other things. So I think it does a really good 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.600 job capturing emotion. UM. I feel a lot of times 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.760 you get the partition story from people who are um 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:48.840 who are currently in India. So it was nice to 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.960 see people from Pakistan, um like, and they're from Grati 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.600 just like I am. And I found it, you know, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.640 like every episode just made me just crying more. I 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.360 am also very sensitive and so I would just um 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.280 because I felt it. You know. There was there was 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.919 a particular scene where Kamala was talking to her her 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.439 nanni which means grandmother, and her grandmother is like, my 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.680 passport says Pakistan, but my roots are in India. And 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.399 I really felt that because I was born in Pakistan, 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.800 my parents were born in Pakistan, but all other generations 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.640 were born in India, and that is a place because 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.320 of how tense the borders are between these countries. I 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.400 will not get to visit for the foreseeable future. If 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.280 you were born in Pakistan, you are not allowed to 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.120 go to India. If you were born in India, you're 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.479 not allowed to go to Pakistan. And it's just crazy 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.760 because I'm like, well, that's where I came from in 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.920 a sense, you know. Um, So for me, just because 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.240 like I said, I am a sensitive person. Like the emotion, 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:53.720 the you know, the people going on trains that you know, 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.159 that is something that I talked about a lot in 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.800 my podcast. A lot of people experienced or read about. Um, 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.040 A lot of people were hoping to get on trains 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.280 and when they tried, those trains came into the stations, 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.680 but they were filled with dead bodies and not people 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.359 who are alive. And so I think it did a 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.240 good job capturing the emotion. But it's like you there's 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.520 just no way you can capture the complexity of that 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.000 event with that. Even with my podcast it's ten episodes, 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.920 and like Nissagari had said earlier, you just can't cover everything, 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:24.879 so you have to pick and choose what you want. 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:30.680 And also like it's as an artist like for me, 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.040 for me, specifically, it's like I want to give you 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.959 like the crumbs of something, and then I want you 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.840 to look into it more, right, Like I shouldn't have 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.120 to force feed you information. I should keep you intrigued 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.000 enough for you don't want to look at this information 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.560 on your own, you know. So like that's how I 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:50.960 how I see it. But I am in a little 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.680 bit of a different position because I work in film 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.880 and TV, Like I programmed several film festivals and things 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.040 like that, so I'm almost also looking through that with 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:03.119 that kind of I um, but like I can understand 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:04.840 people are like, oh, I wish they talked about this. 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.119 I wish they talked about this, but you know, you know, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.560 but me, I'm just like old six episodes. They have 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:13.239 to do all this exposition, they have to do this, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.480 that's just impossible. But people aren't thinking that way. But 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.800 I think it really captured the emotion and the trauma 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.600 of that event and how how um sad it is, 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.920 you know, um, because it is sad to be like 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.520 I'll never get to see where my great grandparents lived 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.239 or my grandparents because they were children, you know, at 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:38.760 least until they decide that's not the case anymore. Um, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.960 but yeah, I can understand people's criticisms, but I think 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.880 for me personally, I thought it did a really good job. 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:49.199 And actually, uh, the woman who created the exhibit that 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.480 I saw in Pakistan that really spearheaded this whole thing 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.840 for me actually directed episodes four and five of Miss Marvel, 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.240 so which is really cool to see that. That was 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.920 another thing I wanted to ask about was like, what 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.199 was the process of doing this, Like emotionally, I know 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.920 I did a I wound up doing somewhat similar things 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.000 for a couple of episodes about World War Two, and 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:12.680 like talking to my family about what it was like 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.399 in China was just like and like just doing the 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.280 sort of our Cape of Reefers, which just like brutal, 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:18.480 and yeah, I want to know, like what that was 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.280 like for you and what that was like for like 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.360 your family having to talk about it and yeah, yeah, 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.680 so it was really draining because you're just reading so 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.080 many awful things, like I read a number of different 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.840 books and you know, talking to all these people, and 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.720 I think for my grandfather, I think, like I don't, 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.280 I don't. He's not a very emotional person. And again 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:41.879 I wasn't physically there with him when he was talking 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.800 to me, and I think it's like something that's for sure, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.640 like in the past for him. And he was fortunate 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:50.520 in the way that he came from an area that 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.840 did have violence, but it wasn't to the extent that 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:59.440 you of other people's accounts. Um. And but talking to 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.640 survive vers was really hard. I actually went to San 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.040 Francisco to talk to someone specifically because they're very hard 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.280 of hearing, and so doing it virtually would have been 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.359 very impossible. And it was also it was also hard 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.240 because he was saying all these things and then he 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.160 would tear up, and it's like where do you just 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.640 listen to this person? And then where do you comfort them? 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.639 Is really hard because I don't want to interrupt, but 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:25.520 I don't want them to be like I don't care 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.920 about what you're saying, like it's affecting me, you know. Um. 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.040 And that person spoke to me for two and a 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.680 half hours, and I had yet to really listen to 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.080 his audio. I've just like listened to bits and pieces 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.840 just for like clarity purposes. UM. So that's gonna be 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.600 rough when that happens, and it's going to come up soon. Um. 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.560 But yeah, it was just really draining, and it's just 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.040 like like highlighting. It's like you know when you're reading 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.080 I've read all these books and you're highlighting things, but 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:51.920 it's like you're going to highlight the whole book because 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:56.359 it's just there's just so many crazy things. And yeah, 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.320 it's just really sad. It's really dreaming. Like I had 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:00.480 mentioned writing the scripts and a Google doc and I'm like, 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.200 here's just like twenty minutes of terror and like an 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.920 a page Google doc that you have to say, um. 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.280 And that also brings up another point where even though 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.879 this podcast is sad and it's not particularly uplifting in 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.280 certain ways, I did want to be myself and so 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.320 I try to add a little bit of lovity in there. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.560 Um Like, there was an artist who um that I mentioned. 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.680 Her work name is Pertica Chodori. She had these really 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:33.679 beautiful installations um of like female body parts, but they 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:38.240 ended up getting ruined in transportation, and so she digitized 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.399 them and is and made n f T s and 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:43.359 so me trying to explain what an n f T 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:45.160 is is just the most ridiculous thing in the world. 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:46.439 So I was like, I'm not going to talk about it, 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:48.560 but it's like there's a little point of lovity in 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:50.480 there that we're talking about n f T s in 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.240 this podcast, you know. Um, but yeah, it's it was 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.520 it's still like a really dreaming process because I say 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:00.959 this a lot, and people of interviewed say this, that 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.359