1 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allaway. Tracy, I always forget. 3 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: Are you a millennial? I knew, I knew this was 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: going to be the first question that you asked me 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: on this episode. I am, I believe what is known 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: as an elder millennial basically sort of on the cusp 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: of the millennial generation, depending on where you um define it. 8 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: But you know, if you define it as kids born 9 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: from the eighties onwards, I'm definitely there. And if you 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: define it as the children of baby boomers, I'm definitely there. 11 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: You're sorry, you're an older millennial. I'm I was born 12 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: in so I think I missed it by that definition. 13 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: But here's my question. Did you use Facebook when you're 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: in college? Yes, but only because only because our college 15 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: got it early. To me, that is the like, in 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: my view, that is the crucial dividing line between millennial 17 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: and Gen X because obviously, like so much of the 18 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: modern eras defined by you know, everything that the Internet 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: and social media and all that stuff, And I really 20 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: feel like if you didn't have Facebook get in college, 21 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: you're not a millennial. And if you did you are, 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: and so I guess you are and I'm not. Look, 23 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: we can go back and forth on the definitions. I 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: actually like the way you define it because I think 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: the Internet has been clearly so crucial to the experience 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: of a lot of millennials, and creating your own online 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: identity has been quite important as well. So it makes sense. Yes, Okay, 28 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm a millennial, but I'm an older one. Yeah you're 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: still good. But beyond the Internet and beyond like the 30 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: way social media and all that is changing everything. One 31 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: of the sort of like persistent frameworks or tropes, sort 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: of themes that happens when people talk about millennials is 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: um the economic situation. And you hear a lot about 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: millennials being late to foreign families or by homes, that 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: their distrust of the stock market. Uh, the millennial generation 36 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: has sort of came of age, at least the sort 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: of middle to late millennials, during a period of labor 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: market procarity. So in addition to everything that we were 39 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: talking about with Facebook and all that, there really is 40 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: this sort of very big economic dimension to how we 41 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: talk about this generation. Right, so many millennials hit the 42 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: job market precisely at the wrong time, which would have 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: been after the two thousand eight financial crisis, and uh 44 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 1: have sort of had their entire labor market experience defined 45 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: by that. And of course you've seen all this tension 46 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: that's bubbling up between millennials and boomers characterized or crystallized, 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: I should say, the Okay, boomer movement now seems to 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: be a thing, a thing. You know what I think 49 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: is lame though, how millennials want to side with gen z. 50 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: It's like, come on, Momornials are all too It's like, 51 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: don't pretend your young anymore. Okay, okay, okay. But all 52 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: that being said, um so let's talk about the millennial 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: economic situation. But before we do, remember a couple of 54 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: weeks ago, or like maybe a month ago, we talked 55 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: to Karen Ho of the University of Minnesota about her 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: anthropological take on Wall Street. Yeah, the anthropologist who worked 57 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: at a at a major bank. Yeah. Well, I'm excited 58 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: because today we are speaking to another Karen Ho, the 59 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: other one. Uh, there's probably several more, but this is 60 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: the other really prominent one if you look online. And 61 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: so we'll odd lots. In a matter of like five 62 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: episodes will have spoken to two Karen Ho's, but this 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: time instead of talking about Wall Street, we're going to 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: talk about the economic and investing condition of the millennial generation. Yeah, 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: you wait for one Karen Home and then to come 66 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: along all at once? Yeah, all right, what's that would 67 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: further ado? Let's bring in uh Karen How she is 68 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: the She's a freelance writer. She's written a lot about 69 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: business cultural thing. She's also the editor of the Significant 70 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: Digits newsletter for five thirty eight. Karen, thank you very 71 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: much for joining us, Thanks for having me. You're aware 72 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: of the other Karen Home before this, right, like how 73 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: much that I get a lot of her emails and 74 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: so I literally have her email address bookmarked and I 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: have to remind people constantly are you asking for? You know? 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: The people have told me that they're like, I love 77 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: your book, and I was like, I'm not that person. 78 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,679 Speaker 1: And so it was really funny when Laura, your producer, 79 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: reached out to me, I was like, are you sure 80 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: you want to talk to me because there's this other 81 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: Karen Home that's a big expert on wallst. And She's like, yes, yes, 82 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you. So I was really 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: thrilled and I've been friends with Joe for a couple 84 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: of years, so it was a great opportunity to come 85 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: and chat about something that I a topic that I 86 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: hold really near and dear to my heart. Did she 87 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: ever get your emails? I don't think she's ever told 88 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: me that, but um, I think there has been one 89 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: time where I emailed her and I was like, I 90 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: get a lot of your fan mail. I just want 91 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: you to know that. So before we start out, do 92 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: we have our definition of millennials roughly correct? Like? What 93 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: is the group the generational group that aren't that we 94 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: are talking about here? I think both of you are 95 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: correct in that I would say the upper tier of 96 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: the current age of I would say an older millennial 97 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: is around thirty eight. Any older than that I would consider, 98 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? You know it's like thirty 99 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: eight because under the definition of like you said using 100 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Facebook in undergrad I would say especially, And then I 101 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: would say the youngest millennials I would say are maybe 102 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: twenty eight, because anything younger than that it's a totally 103 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: different circumstance when it comes to the labor market and 104 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the age of their parents. And I say, 105 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: my I have boomer parents, but they had me very 106 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: very lately. You know, my mother was almost forty when 107 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: she had my younger sister, and so like when we 108 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: talk about generations as defined by economics, the older generations 109 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: has much longer spans than the way that we are 110 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: defining Gen Z, and even the generation after gen Z 111 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: it's much much narrower. And I always find that really 112 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: interesting because there's no consistency in terms of the time 113 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: period between these generations. Yeah, it's interesting to think about, Like, 114 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: if you're Gen Z, you've basically, unlike millennials, your entire 115 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: working career has been economic expansion. You have that. If 116 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: you're twenty eight or twenty six or younger, you graduated 117 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: in the last I don't know, four or six years, 118 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: Like it's basically been economic expansion that whole time. Maybe 119 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: not the best labor market, but not terrible. But Millennials 120 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: are really in large part facebook aside by the sort 121 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: of like long stretch of economic procarity. Absolutely, how is 122 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: that to find the generation interview? So having personally graduated 123 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: undergrad in that generation has entirely started in the whole 124 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: everything from your graduating into the market where they're freezes 125 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: there are mass layoffs on Wall Street and in Bays Street. 126 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: And the problem is right now, so you are starting 127 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: at at a place where the compound interest racks up 128 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: in the period where you're supposed to see your career 129 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: rapidly increase. You know, whether it be in terms of earnings, 130 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: whether it be in terms of income potential, UM, you know, 131 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: future investment decisions, even in terms of even the way 132 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: that you date, right the way that you spend money 133 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: while dating, and then you're making long term plans for uh, 134 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: investing in real estate, having a family, or even um. 135 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: If you're in a job that is automatically doesn't include 136 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: a pension, or doesn't include an investment opportunities, or doesn't 137 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: even have benefits, then you can't set aside the money 138 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: that you need in the long term to take care 139 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: of things like your health or for retirement. So can you, 140 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: um give a bit more detail on that statement? So 141 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: what exactly is the job market or the employment benefits 142 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: that most millennials have encountered, and how did they differ 143 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: from generations previously. I think the millennial generation is much 144 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: more hyper aware of the jobs that we've seen a 145 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: lot of economic coverage of the gig economy or or 146 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: you know, you have these really tenuous circumstances where you're 147 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: essentially given full time hours without any benefits or permanancing. 148 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: You know, if you are laid off, there's no such 149 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: thing as severance, or you know, a period where you 150 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: have health benefits for a week or two, and then there's, 151 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: like I said, no defined contributions to pensions or investments, 152 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: and there's no offset for or contribution to health and 153 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: health insurance or other benefits. And so all of those 154 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: costs are put on the millennials themselves, everything from you know, 155 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: basic things like gym memberships all the way to health 156 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: savings plans. They don't get any of those cumulative benefits 157 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: from stable employment and uh financial security. And then on 158 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: top of that, you know, this is the start I 159 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: would say, of a very noticeable year over year increase 160 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: in terms of the cost of education and health, especially 161 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: in the United States, but in other countries as well, 162 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: where you're seeing I think from the period in which 163 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: I graduated, and I checked this right before coming in 164 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: just in Canada, which you know has a much higher 165 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: tax base and is seen as a much more affordable place, 166 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: yet higher education, the cost of tuition at the undergraduate 167 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: level for a domestic tuition has risen anywhere from thirty 168 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: to in ten years. So one of the things that's 169 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: become something of a trope is this notion of millennials 170 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: as entitled, ungrateful workers in the office. Is it possible 171 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: that instead of just being you know, spoiled and entitled, 172 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: that what a lot of them are actually asking for 173 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: are things that the previous generation was given without asking 174 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: for explicitly, I'm always really interested in question those statements 175 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: and the specific of those statements in terms of what 176 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: is entitlement when it comes to circumstances, because I think 177 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: even in terms of the conversation regarding treatment of women 178 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: in the workforce, you know, some of those demands or 179 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: requests in terms of we would like to not be 180 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: sexually harassed at work, we would like equal pay, we 181 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: would like to consider, you know, policies regarding maternity leave. 182 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: The people making those policy decisions and workplace, you know, 183 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: employment decisions can argue that these are entitlements or or 184 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: attitudes of entitlements, but it's also in terms of what 185 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: we know the demands that millennials are asking for in 186 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: terms of things like contracts that are very clear regarding diversity, 187 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: pay gaps. Uh, you know, severance if someone is laid off, 188 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: especially in industries where layoffs are incredibly common and have 189 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: happened in huge waves. I'm really interested in who defines 190 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: these entitlements, like who are the financial writers, who are 191 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: who is saying these statements in the press and saying 192 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: these millennials are entitled. It's usually you know, people who 193 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: feel like they have been mistreated in the workforce, and 194 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: that mistreatment needs to continue to happen. You know that 195 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: they survived that mistreatment to get to where they are. Uh. 196 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: And there's a level of Stockholm syndrome that they survived 197 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: a kind of hazing for for lack of a better term, 198 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: and there's this fear that they didn't survive that mistreatment 199 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: for their own benefit, and you know that there's a 200 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: duty to continue that. Going back to is you point 201 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: out there's all these costs. There's a sort of too 202 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: a couple from an economic standpoint, There's a couple of 203 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: things that, as you put it, have characterized this generation. 204 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: There's the financial procarity, the labor market, and then also 205 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: just all these added costs that have been put onto 206 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: millennials in terms of healthcare, paying for their education and 207 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: so forth. And what I'm curious about, and what I'm 208 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: always trying to wrap my head around, is to what 209 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: degree does this change financial behavior? Is such that even 210 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: if one is in the position where they're able to 211 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: build up savings, even if they're in the position where 212 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: they have a good paying job they could easily cover 213 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: their rent, etcetera, that changes their willingness to say invest 214 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: or they're spending decisions because there's so much uncertainty. If 215 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: they have a health crisis, then that will cause their 216 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: um you know, that will deplete their savings, and it's 217 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: sort of unwillingness to make the same like sort of 218 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: savings and investment choices of someone from a previous generation 219 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: who may have also been in the same economic situation. 220 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: I think you're starting to see a lot of mimicking 221 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: that unfortunately happened on Wall Street and this hyper focus 222 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: on the short term gains. I mean, there's endless jokes 223 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: regarding self care and the millennial spending on self care 224 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: or tourism. You know, all these derogatory statements regarding how 225 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: much millennials spend on eating out or coffees and things 226 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: like that. But I think it's a reflection of what 227 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: has happened on Wall Street for decades, which is this 228 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: hyper focus on the short term gains and in it 229 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: benefits rather than long term sustainability. And so if Wall 230 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: Street is teaching this to everyone that is really about 231 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: quarterly returns, and we're an earning seasons right now, then 232 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: why would the millennial generation be inclined to think anything 233 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: differently when everything is about cost of good sold, right 234 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: And it's the same thing when you think about reducing 235 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: your expenses, you know, on a day to day basis, 236 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: if I'm hyper focused on reducing my expenses, then I'm 237 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: going to think about not necessarily, you know, rather than 238 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: setting aside money because I need that money to reduce 239 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: my expenses right now. So I think that that's one 240 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: of the things that I think has been a big 241 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: picture trend that people really forget these are financial lessons 242 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: because financial literacy is not necessarily a core component and 243 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: say high school and middle school education, especially in the 244 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: United States, you know, where else are you getting these 245 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: financial lessons? And then I also want to remind people 246 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: that for better for worse, like reducing pay inequality, especially 247 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: among women and visible minorities, increases the cost of good sold. 248 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: Like there's no inclination if Wall Street is not inclined 249 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: to reduce these pay gaps and increase you know, say, 250 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: employee satisfaction or with these benefits, because that is not 251 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: what corporate finance teaches in NBA programs, because it increases 252 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: cost of good sold. And that's something like when I 253 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: was really listening to U Karen's episode regarding the ethnography 254 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: of Wall Street, especially prior to the crash, like right now, 255 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: this hyper focus, especially in tech, right especially when you're 256 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: incentivizing paying people in stock rather than in money that 257 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: they can take home right away in their salaries and 258 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: benefits they're going to incentivize, like I said, also these 259 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: short term behaviors that reduce expenses and uh. And also 260 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: they're going to make decisions that are not necessarily in 261 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: the long term interests of both themselves and then the corporation. 262 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: I definitely feel like one of the big I'm not 263 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: sure if it's political per se, but one of the 264 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: big things that we know about sort of younger generations, 265 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: whether it's millennial or maybe gen z as well, is 266 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: a significant focus and concern about climate and climate change 267 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: more than previous generations, and something I've always wondered about 268 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: and I'm curious your take on it is, does the 269 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: sense of impending doom that is a growing, a growing 270 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: sense I think among many people in your view change behaviors, 271 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: and that if someone says, like, Okay, well, you know, 272 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: you invest in this four oh one K and maybe 273 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: your twenty five, and you retire at sixty, so it's like, Okay, 274 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: you're not gonna be able to touch it for forty years. 275 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: Put backs out your four oh one K. I'm curious 276 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: whether this growing sense of climate doom in your view 277 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: changes the calculus about whether even a forty year weight 278 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: on an investment vehicle is makes sense. I think it's 279 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: one of several factors. I think, even before our understanding 280 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: of how climate change will affect the likelihood that this 281 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: generation will be able to retire or or set these 282 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: benchmarks for how much of their income they're supposed to 283 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: set aside for various investments, there's the basic fact that 284 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: there is still the day to day of like credit 285 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: card bills, student loans, your monthly rent, buying basic groceries. 286 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: Those are still day to day concerns or monthly concerns 287 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: long before investments that millennials are trying to stay above 288 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: water for. And unfortunately, like credit card companies do not 289 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: care about the impending climate crisis. They care if you 290 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: are late on your credit card payments or your student 291 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: loan payments, right like Navigant does not care if you 292 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: are anxious through the roof and are trying to pay 293 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: out of pocket for therapy or medications in order to 294 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: deal with, you know, this climate crisis. They care if 295 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: you're making your student loan payments on time for an 296 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: education that is right now very difficult to get a 297 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: job for. I read a report this morning from CNBC 298 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: talking about the inverted deal curve. You know, all these 299 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: economic indicators are saying right now people are girding themselves 300 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: for a recession. So millennials, regardless of even thinking about retirement, 301 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: they're just worried about the fact that if they can 302 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: even get a new job or keep their current job 303 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: right now, Like, the problem is this generation is burdened 304 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: by so many other legitimate concerns in regards to these 305 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: economic factors, and if they'll be able to afford getting married, 306 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: buying a home having children. Right. There was another report 307 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: over the weekend from the New York Times estimating the 308 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: cost of a child at two hundred thousand dollars. You know, 309 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm at the perfect age where I have to consider 310 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: egg freezing or you know, if I'm going to use 311 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: that money for a work visa, like all of these things, 312 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: and so there's that combination. But it's just unfortunately another 313 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: thing on top of the pile in terms of climate change. 314 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: But I think that's a huge concern. It's just like 315 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: I've seen several jokes on Twitter saying, do I really 316 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: have to put aside money for retirement? Like who knows 317 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: if if we're even going to have a planet, if 318 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 1: everyone's trying to boost up and go to Mars, if 319 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: all the rich people are investing in Mars, one ticket, 320 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: gotta gotta save up for a ticket to mark Um. 321 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: I feel kind of bad asking this question because you 322 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: just laid out a whole host of economic anxieties for millennials. 323 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: But I'm curious it does the bowl market that we've 324 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: basically seen for the past ten years in stocks and 325 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: a bunch of other assets, does that factor into or 326 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: offset any of the reluctance of millennials to actually invest, 327 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: because year after year after year, for the most part, 328 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: have they just invested in an index fund PEG to 329 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: the SMP five hundred, they would have made a decent return. 330 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: Is there not a sort of fear of missing out 331 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: among some millennials or are they just so overwhelmed with 332 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: their other economic needs that it doesn't even come into play. 333 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: So I preface this by saying, I'm the child of 334 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: two bankers who worked for TD for twenty years each. 335 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: I am literally the perfect example of someone who grew 336 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: up with financial literacy from birth. If you're saying, you know, 337 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: with the bull market, I was, I chose an industry. 338 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: Unfortunately that I was not given the breathing room to 339 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: continue to either have a savings cushion or add to 340 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: that savings cushion during the period of the bull market. 341 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: You know, to invest in the bull market, you have 342 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: to have capital in order to put in and if 343 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: we've seen continuously, the millennial generation does not have this 344 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: excess capital either. They could not access the loans. They 345 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: were either discriminated against, especially if there were women and minorities, 346 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: for accessing these loans for mortgages, personal finance or they 347 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: were charged significantly more for car loans and education and 348 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: personal finance loans. Then there's the fact that they started 349 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: off with education loans and they couldn't immediately pay them 350 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: off in the first five to ten years following graduation 351 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: the same way that previous generations could, even with gen 352 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: X is experience of their own recession, right with the 353 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: dot com boone in the nineties. Then there's also the 354 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: fact that you're just like crawling yourself out of that 355 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: hole over and over again. And so even the bullmarket, 356 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: it's really about watching which organizations continue to look for 357 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: efficiencies and either crawling back pay raises or in terms 358 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: of new hiring or even benefits. Right there was continuous 359 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: union busting or in terms of reducing the portion of 360 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: benefits everything from define pension plans and to find benefits 361 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: or even the contributions that they were making too four 362 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: O one case, and the Canadian and UK equivalents imagined 363 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: someone listening to this, maybe their gen X, not me, 364 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: but you know someone maybe they're a little older gen X, 365 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: or maybe they're a boomer, and the millennials, it's like, yeah, 366 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: there's all this stuff that's been difficult for them, But 367 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: we had our own difficulty. You we had like inflation 368 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: in the seventies, we were terrified of the Cold War 369 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 1: and we had to duck and cover, and we were 370 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: worried about a nuclear bomb annihilated the world. They would say, like, 371 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: we had all kinds of things, you know, we had 372 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: our own issues, We had our own college costs to 373 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: deal with whatever it is. What are the sort of 374 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: data points that you look at, They would say, yes, 375 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: of course every generation has its anxieties, but substantively, this 376 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: is how why millennials like really did start deeper in 377 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: a whole than other generations. So I think going back 378 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: to the subject of capital um and capital investments, so 379 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: to go back to the Boomer generation and even to 380 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,959 Speaker 1: a small degree, Gen X, the boomers could access capital, 381 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: whether it be through wealth building, through real estate, and 382 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: as well in terms of there's intellectual capital through education, 383 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: those definitive costs, and remember using the concept of compound interest, 384 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: they were able to benefit in a multi decade experience 385 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: in the way that the millennials will never have. And 386 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: the Cold War is a real concern, right like nuclear 387 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: disaster is a real concern. The problem is it's the 388 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: millennial generation that has to deal with you know, say 389 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: the toxic pool of waste right now in the Marshall 390 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: Islands that could be uncovered due to climate change, and 391 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: gen Z to a larger degree will also have to 392 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: deal with this. And so it's the wealth that boomers, 393 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: especially white boomers in several countries, have been able to 394 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: build up and benefit from compound interest, whether it be 395 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: through capital investments in property and in uh financial investments. 396 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: They had the excess capital in order to invest in 397 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: the bowl market over the last decade and benefit from 398 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: those gains. And then they were able to also benefit 399 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: from the low cost of education, right like my mother 400 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: talks about going to university for the cost of a car. 401 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: You know, in the United States now the cost of 402 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: a car is one semester's tuition, not including room and board. 403 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: So I think about that. And then there's also physical 404 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: and mental anxiety and the long term effects. Right we 405 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: know right now that their studies showing millennials will suffer 406 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: both in the short and long term in terms of 407 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: healthcare costs because of all of these cumulative factors that 408 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: we've outlined. So also have to plan to spend both 409 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: in the short and long term on these on dealing 410 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: with these issues, whether it be heart issues, health issues 411 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: right and possibly cancers and other long term illnesses, all 412 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: of those combinations combined, there's definitely going to be a 413 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: lot of issues. But even when it comes to boomer healthcare, 414 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: there's gonna there's gonna be much more capital for them 415 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: to say, retrofit their homes or go into long long 416 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: term care facilities, and also to buy the things that 417 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: they need. Even when there is income disparities. They're going 418 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: to be able to access Social Security in a way 419 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: that the millennial generation has totally written off. I'm actually 420 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: really interested in that last point. But real quickly, would 421 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: you say that you and your peers just assumed that 422 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: Social Security isn't going to be there when you retire. 423 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we've stopped assuming that we're going to have pensions. 424 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: Like the joke is like but its like but no, 425 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: what like? I mean, theoretically, the law says you're paying 426 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: into this trust fund. It's kind of made up. But 427 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: the law as it stands says that you'll get this 428 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: money out of every paycheck. But in your view, do 429 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: you think people are just like, yeah, it's not gonna 430 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: be there. So the problem with social security and the 431 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: way that it's funding, you know, I'm really I look 432 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: at a lot of economic indicators every day, everything from 433 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: the replacent rate, like if you're having fewer kids, if 434 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: people every generation continues to have fewer kids based on 435 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: the projected cost of everything from educating and feeding them 436 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: and you know, making sure that they're still alive, then 437 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: there's also the effect of Social Security. I think it's 438 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: also just like you know, like the minimum wage has 439 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: an increase in Stily two thousand and nine, and you know, 440 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: there was a report recently that shows people who are 441 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: earning less than fifteen dollars an hour, if they try 442 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: to get a new job, it's very difficult for them 443 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: to ascend to a job that will pay them more 444 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: than fifteen dollars an hour. So there's incredible wage stagnation 445 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: among a generation. Not just millennials, but millennials are highly 446 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: affected by this lack of basically mobility in the ability 447 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: to rise to the middle class on a a stable, 448 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: long term basis. So this procarity just precludes you from 449 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: setting aside money both that the government needs but also 450 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: that these individuals need on a long term basis, So 451 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: just zooming out a little bit. You're talking about, well, 452 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned union busting earlier, and you're talking about a vastly, 453 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: vastly different um both work and personal situation for millennials 454 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: today versus what their parents experienced when they sort of 455 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: came of age in the workforce. What do you think 456 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: change sort of economically or in society or in the 457 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: way corporations operate. That's a really big question. Sorry, but 458 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: like something must have happened, right, So there's a culture 459 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: in which, unfortunately, I think there's a generation I would 460 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: say that lean's libertarian or conservative in terms of everything 461 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: from how things are taxed. There was a huge withdrawal 462 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: of public funding towards education in especially in many specific states, 463 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: but across the United States, for better for worse. It 464 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: was hyper focus on the individual. It's like you're not 465 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: working hard enough, you're not doing enough to save personally. 466 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: So it made system disparities much greater, especially among genders 467 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: and minorities, which are growing groups in the United States 468 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: through immigration and through birthrates. Right, Like we know birthrates 469 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: very wildly between different ethnicities. Like I really think the 470 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: rise of personal finances, individualizing systemic factors and saying you 471 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: are not saving enough of your own personal income regardless 472 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: of these systemic factors that are preventing you from earning 473 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: more at work or setting aside these funds. You know, 474 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: things that other countries have taken care of for them, 475 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: whether it be child care or uh, you know, the 476 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: cost of going to the hospital or paying for higher education, 477 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: or even in terms of the way that costs have 478 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: been privatized. And what is the government's priority. I think 479 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: it's really about, like I said, going back to the 480 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: philosoph view of thinking and the culture of thinking about 481 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: the short term and and then especially the rapid focus, 482 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: especially in the last decade that the other Karen talked 483 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: about on Wall Street. It's it's really about what can 484 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: you get so that your latest quarters results increase the 485 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: share price on the market. You know, it's actually it 486 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: would be so it's so ridiculous kind of but you 487 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: guys would have been a good joint. No, seriously, because 488 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: so much of like what her point was that like 489 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: the sort of internal culture of the banks then has 490 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: the sort of like outward manifestation. And now I feel 491 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: like you're talking about the outward side of it. And 492 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,239 Speaker 1: so even though it's kind of random that maybe one 493 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: day we should have another one where you're both on 494 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: at the same time, because I feel like there's a 495 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: lot of what you're both saying that are kind of 496 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 1: like the same story from a different perspective. Before we 497 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,239 Speaker 1: wrap up, I'm curious, like, in your view, is this 498 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: whole too big to dig out of? Like, if they, 499 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: let's say, the expansion, the economic recovery were continue to 500 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: go on, and the labor market were to continue to 501 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: be you know, three point six percent unemployment pretty good 502 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: if that were to continue, could eventually this whole will 503 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: be dug out of? Or do you think that the 504 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: sort of economic traumas that were unique and specific to 505 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: this generation, plus the burden of various debts, the sort 506 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: of gouging that we see in healthcare and education really 507 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: basically guarantees that a permanent scar has been left on 508 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,239 Speaker 1: the one generation essentially last forever on that happy Now. 509 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: I think it's really about what's going to happen in 510 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: that's going to determine a lot of what's going to 511 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: change or not change, because there is right now no 512 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: incentive or no motivation for a lot of these organizations 513 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: and corporations to change their behavior. Right in terms of 514 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: the tax cuts, basically, so far, the reporting shows that 515 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: none of the organizations have really reinvested the money that 516 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: they supposedly saved on taxes, right. They just continue to 517 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: either give that out to shareholders or attain it um 518 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: as cash on hand. Then there's the problem in regards 519 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: to digging out of the whole requires specific government policies 520 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: like raising the minimum wage. You know, I was shocked 521 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: to see that there are exemptions I think in Montana 522 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: and Georgia for minimum wages lower than I think five 523 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: dollars and fifteen cents. In Montana it's four dollars. And 524 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: then you know, we have an increasing number of people 525 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: who are participating in a gig economy that is paying widely, 526 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: you know, exploitive rates for everything. I think it's really 527 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: about looking at the systems that are pushing people to 528 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: need this money. You know, I thought the report on 529 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: mechanical turking was horrifying in terms of what people felt 530 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: like they had to do in order to pay for 531 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: basic medical prescriptions, um like saving insulin. It's really about, unfortunately, 532 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: what are the priorities of governments, Because corporations are not 533 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: being incentivized, like I said, doing things like investing in 534 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: reducing pay gaps or even tuition incentives that increases cocks 535 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: and expenses and on their balance sheets. That looks bad, right, 536 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: because it looks bad for a net income, it looks 537 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: bad for quarterly results. And unfortunately, it's treated very differently 538 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: than if you got like a government fine for violating 539 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: privacy issues. Karen, thank you very much for joining us. 540 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: That was awesome. Thanks so much. Perspective Karen Tracy, I 541 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: really I wasn't kidding. We we should have or we 542 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: should at some point have a podcast with the two 543 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: Karen's at the same time, because I really did feel 544 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: like her. This Karen's perspective was almost exactly what the 545 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: other Karen was talking about in terms of that culture 546 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: of Wall Street then manifesting into culture of corporations, then 547 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: bleeding down into the culture of employees and other people 548 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: who live in this world today. Right, I would totally 549 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: agree with you. They're surprisingly in sync. And what this 550 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: Karen was talking about was basically the societal impact of 551 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: all that short termism on Wall Street. One thing that 552 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,959 Speaker 1: really struck me was this idea of compound interest between 553 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: generations as well, because one thing you often hear nowadays 554 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: is that, you know, millennials are complaining now, but eventually, 555 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: and this is quite dark, but it is sadly true. 556 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: Eventually the baby boomers are going to die and there 557 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: could be this big transfer of capital slash wealth to 558 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: their children, and at that point millennials will have some 559 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: capital to play around with. But of course, as Karen 560 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: pointed out, they've already missed out on decades of actually 561 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: doing something with that capital. I also think it's interesting 562 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: because this concept of labor market procarity or economic procarity, 563 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: I think for millennials in particul there's actually been like 564 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: a double whammy because there's one there's like the deep 565 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: economic cycle, so that we had the Great Recession, and 566 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: we've had a pretty weak labor market for a long time, 567 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: particularly in this country, So that lends itself to economic 568 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: procarity because the job markets not that great. Compounded with 569 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: or added on to that, we have these new modes 570 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 1: of labor, expectations of the gig economy, other things, in 571 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: which even in a good economy, even when the job 572 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,719 Speaker 1: market is robust, there are these changing expectations about how 573 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: much permanent unemployer owes an employee and so forth, And 574 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: so I really think that, like there's the cyclical aspect 575 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: to procarity, that's the ups and downs of the GDP 576 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: and the unemployment rate, and then there's the structural aspect 577 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: of labor market procarity, which is just the nature of 578 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: work seems to be changing. And it really feels like millennials, 579 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: unlike any other generation, just got hit with two different 580 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: kinds of recarity at the same time. Yeah, I would 581 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: also say it's it's even a triple whammy because you 582 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: also have the impact of sort of starting your career 583 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: immediately after the financial crisis, when people really weren't certain 584 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: what investing was or what the market was going to 585 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: look like. And then at the same time, you're sort 586 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: of struggling to gather together enough money to actually put 587 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: in a four oh one K or any type of 588 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: financial asset, and you're watching stocks hit new highs basically 589 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: every year, and you're worried that you're coming in at 590 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: exactly the end of the bull market. And I mean, 591 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: you and I both know that for the past eight 592 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: years people have been talking about the end of the 593 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: bull market. And I think it's really really hard for 594 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: people to get over that initial experience and actually dip 595 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: into the market. Oh totally. Everyone always thinks that the 596 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: moment they get in is going to be the peak. 597 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: And then I think the one other thing, and I 598 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: think this is like a ongoing worse sending trend in 599 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: American economy, which is just these crucial sectors of the 600 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 1: economy I think are getting driven by oligopoly and rent seeking, 601 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: and so whether it's universities, whether it's healthcare, whether it's rent, 602 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,959 Speaker 1: you have these entrenched, powerful forces that are really sort 603 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: of I think in a lot of people's just kind 604 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: of making a mockery of capitalism and free markets, where 605 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: prices are just getting worse. As Karen put it, like 606 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, uh now one semester of college basically costs 607 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: as much as a car as opposed to a whole education. 608 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: It is getting worse. It is these things are getting 609 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: more expensive. Healthcare is getting more unaffordable by leaps and 610 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: bounds every year, in part because these industries are just 611 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: like so broken and u arguably so corrupt, so lots 612 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: of bad things or in Amazon that's able to sort 613 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: of exert enormous downward pressure on wages. And what's actually 614 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: really worrying is that a lot of policymakers are only 615 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: just beginning to scratch the surface of these dynamics. And 616 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: I know at Jackson Hole last year, people were talking 617 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: a lot about monopsony, which was sort of the technical term. 618 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: I guess for a lot of these dynamics. We haven't 619 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: really heard that much since then. No, but I guess, 620 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: you know Karen mentioned, and I think a lot of 621 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: the question for policy perspective is like, you know, the 622 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: true no trend can last forever. So are we going 623 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: to find a way as a country to sort of 624 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: curb some of these trends or is it going to 625 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: like all break one day and some huge revolution and cataclysm. 626 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: So that's something investor should think about. Okay, On that 627 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: happy note. On that note, this has been This has 628 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. 629 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart and 630 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 631 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. And you should follow our guests on Twitter. 632 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: She's at Karen k Ho and be sure to follow 633 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: our producer on Twitter, Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson, 634 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: and check out all of Bloomberg's podcasts on Twitter at podcasts. 635 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.