1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Vie Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We've gotten 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: a lot of requests over the years to do an 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: episode about the Coconut Grove nightclub fire, and I have 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: really really put off doing it because of all the 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: different types of disasters there are to research. For me, 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: the fires are the worst ones there. They're bad. Yeah, 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: they're bad. We can talk about reasons why on Friday 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: and the behind the scenes. But the Coconut Grove fire 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: came up not long ago on our episode on Charles 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: Ponzi because his wife Rose worked there. She went to 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: work there after he had been deported back to Italy, 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: but she was not at work that night, so I 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: thought about moving it onto the list. Then after it 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: had come up, and as I was looking at it, 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: I realized this year is the fires eightieth anniversary. It 18 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: happened on November. This is still the deadliest nightclub fire 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: in history, and in terms of single building fires, it 20 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: is the second deadliest in United States history. The deadliest 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: was the Iroquois Theater fire in Chicago that happened on 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: December nineteen oh three, and we covered that fire on 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: this show on December eight. As we will discuss, though, 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of lessons from the Iroquois Theater 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: fire that had not been heated at Coconut Grove almost 26 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: forty years later. Coconut Grove, often known just as the Grove, 27 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: was at seventeen Piedmont Street in Boston, Massachusetts, with an 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: entrance set behind a trio of archways. It's theme may 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: have been inspired by the Coconut Grove nightclub at the 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Ambassador Hotel on Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles. Boston's Coconut 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: Grove had opened in in what had previously been a 32 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: garage and warehouse. Over time, it had been built on 33 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: and expanded and remodeled and by The club had this 34 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: kind of odd, almost zigzag shape. The ground floor contained 35 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: the caricature bar as well as a full service restaurant. 36 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: The restaurant had a central dance floor with tables and 37 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: chairs on three sides of it and an orchestra stage 38 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: on the fourth. This area had a retractable roof that 39 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: could be opened in good weather, which I think sounds 40 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: very nice. This was November, though, so it was closed 41 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: the night of the fire. The ground floor also had 42 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: a newly opened lounge called the Broadway Lounge also just 43 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: called the New Lounge, that also had a bar in it. 44 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: There were also coat check rooms, restrooms, dressing rooms for 45 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: the entertainer, is, a telephone room, and a service bar. 46 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of stuff packed into this 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: relatively small kind of zigzag shaped space. The basement of 48 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: the grove had only one public space, the Melody Lounge. 49 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: The rest of the basement house the furnace room, the kitchens, 50 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: with walking, cold storage and other storage spaces on both floors. 51 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: The club was decorated with lighted artificial palm trees, satiny 52 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: fabric draped from the ceiling and walls of stairs, and 53 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: the Melody Lounge had a satin covered ceiling and walls 54 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: covered in ratan bamboo and synthetic leather. Previously, the grove 55 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: had been owned by mob boss Charles Solomon, who was 56 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: known as King. Solomon was murdered at Boston's Cotton Club 57 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: in ninety three, and at that point his wife inherited 58 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: the grove. She gave it to their lawyer, Barnett Wolansky, 59 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: known as Barney in lieu of legal fees. When Solomon 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: owned it, the grove had kind of a seedy reputation 61 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: as a prohibition earirest speak easy but well Landski tried 62 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: to transform it into a more glamorous place that people 63 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: would want to come for dinner, drinks, dancing, and entertainment. 64 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: On the night of November, the grove was busy. It 65 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: was the Saturday after Thanksgiving. There had been a big 66 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: college football game earlier in the day between rivals Boston 67 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: College and Holy Cross College. Boston College was at the 68 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: end of an undefeated season and everyone expected them to 69 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: win and then be invited to play in the Sugar Bowl. 70 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: There was reportedly even a committee on hand to deliver 71 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: that invitation after the game, but surprise, Boston College lost 72 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: fifty five to twelve. That was an enormous upset. A 73 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: formal celebration had been planned at the grove, which was 74 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: canceled because of that loss, but a lot of people 75 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: made their way there after the game anyway. A party 76 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,119 Speaker 1: that went on as planned that night was in honor 77 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: of actor Buck Jones. Jones was known for his work 78 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: in westerns. He had acting credits and more than a 79 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty films, almost all of them Westerns. He 80 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: was on a tour promoting war bonds, and about thirty 81 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: people were at his party. A lot of them were 82 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: affiliated with Monogram Theater Group. Since this happened as the 83 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: United States was involved in World War Two, there were 84 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: also a lot of servicemen there. At about ten fifteen 85 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: that night, the grove was absolutely packed. The club's license 86 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: applications with the City of Boston specified that it had 87 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: four hundred chairs and thirty stools, although sources contradict about 88 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: what the club's maximum occupancy was. There are sources that 89 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: list both four hundred sixty and six hundred people. Regardless, 90 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: it's estimated that there were about a thousand people in 91 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: the building that night, so roughly twice the planned number. Downstairs, 92 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: in a corner of the mill the lounge, someone loosened 93 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: a light bulb in one of the artificial palm trees. 94 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: That corner was already pretty dimly lit, but this person 95 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: apparently wanted some more privacy with his date. The bartender 96 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: noticed this and told a bus boy to go fix 97 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: the bulb. Without that bulblet, it was too dark in 98 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: the corner to see, so the bus boy lit a match, 99 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: and then once he was done, he extinguished the match, 100 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: stomping it out on the floor with his foot. Very 101 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: soon after this, people noticed sparks in the vicinity of 102 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: this palm tree near the ceiling, but for a moment 103 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: there was not an obvious flame. But then the fire 104 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: spread very rapidly along the underside of the fabric draped 105 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: below the ceiling. It took somewhere between two and four 106 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: minutes for a very hot, fast moving fire to engulf 107 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: the melody lounge. The stairway out of the lounge, which 108 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: was narrow and steep, acted like a chimney, drawing the 109 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: fire and the heat up to the ground floor of 110 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: the building, where it burst into the foyer. The foyer 111 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: had a high, arched ceiling, and it similarly acted like 112 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: a chimney and pulled the fire into the rest of 113 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: the ground floor. The fabric draped walls and ceiling quickly 114 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: caught fire. Within about five minutes, the fire had moved 115 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: through the ground floor restaurant and into the New Broadway lounge. 116 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: When people noticed the flames, they panicked, and that panic 117 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: became much worse when the lights went out Just minutes 118 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: after the fire started, there were no emergency lights, and 119 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: the exits were not marked. Even if they had been. 120 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: Many of the doors were locked. People overturned tables and 121 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: punched and shoved one another as they fought to get 122 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: to an exit. And the exit the vast majority of 123 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: people were pushing for was the revolving door that they 124 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: used to enter the building that was quickly jammed with bodies. 125 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: As the fire burned through the oxygen and the melody lounge, 126 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: it left very hot, flammable gases that burst into flame 127 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: again when they got to the top of the stairs, 128 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: where there was more fresh air, and that meant people 129 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: who didn't make it up the stairs ahead of the 130 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: fire found those stairs blocked by flames. The same was 131 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: true for the buildings working doors to the outside. The 132 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: fire surged as it came into contact with the fresh air. 133 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: This included surging around the sides of the revolving door, 134 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: so the doors that were not locked became totally impassable. 135 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: They were blocked by bursts of flame and by bodies 136 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: stacked on top of one another. Together, all of this 137 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: was disastrous. Four hundred two people died. Official lists include 138 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: four nine names. One person who died in the hospital 139 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: is not included for reasons that are unclear. Another person 140 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: survived the fire but lost his wife, and he took 141 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: his own life at the hospital. There were also one 142 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: hundred sixties x reported injuries, but those are only the 143 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: people who were taken to the hospital. With an estimated 144 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: one thousand people in the building that night, that means 145 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: about half of the people who were there died. Only 146 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: one in four made it out without an injury bad 147 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: enough to send them to the hospital. Most of the 148 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: deaths were from burns, smoke annilation, or carbon monoxide poisoning, 149 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: but there were also deaths from crushing injuries or other 150 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: injuries sustained while trying to escape. We're going to take 151 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break, and then we'll talk about efforts 152 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: to put out the fire and the rescue efforts. The 153 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: Coconut Grove fire happened at a moment when Boston's fire 154 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: department and other emergency services were simultaneously reeling and also 155 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: well prepared for such an emergency. On November, less than 156 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: two weeks before the Coconut Grove fire, six firefighters had 157 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: been killed and about fifty others trapped or injured. After 158 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: a wall collapsed. The restaurant fire they had been fighting 159 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: had been brought under control, and the wall collapsed after 160 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: that part was basically finished. Then, the weekend before the 161 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: Coconut Grove fire, Boston had also conducted a civil defense drill. 162 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: This was a drill that simulated a blitzkrieg like attack 163 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: on the city with mass casualties. So while the fire 164 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: department and other people who had responded to that fire 165 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: were still really recovering from this earlier disaster, thousands of 166 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: people had also just practiced exactly what to do. Because 167 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: Boston is a major city on the US eastern Seaboard, 168 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: officials had been preparing for the possibility of an enemy attack. 169 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: In addition to the civil defense drill, area hospitals had 170 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: started establishing blood banks and stockpiling blood and plasma. Blood 171 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: banks were really a brand new innovation at this point. 172 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: That's something else that has been on Tracy's list for 173 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: a bit, so expect an episode on that fairly soon 174 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: as well. I am working on it right now. In fact, 175 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: at about ten fift PM on the night of the fire, 176 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: just as it was getting started in the Melody Lounge, 177 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: the Boston Fire Department responded to a signal from a 178 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: fire alarm box at the corner of Stewart and Carver Streets. 179 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: Carver Street is Charles Street today. M turned out to 180 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: be a vehicle fire, which they extinguished, but then firefighters 181 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: heard a commotion and noticed smoke coming from the direction 182 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: of coconut growth, which was not far away. As the 183 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: firefighters moved to investigate, they also ran into bystanders who 184 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: were calling for help. So, by total coincidence, the Boston 185 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: Fire Department was already there on the scene working to 186 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: bring the fire under control. Within minutes of its starting, 187 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: another bystander pulled the alarm at another fire department call box, 188 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: and at ten twenty three, roughly eight minutes after the 189 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: fire started, the fire chief on the scene ordered a 190 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: third alarm to be called. A fourth alarm followed almost 191 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: immediately at eleven o two. This became a five alarm fire. 192 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: Over that period, twenty five engine companies, five ladder companies, 193 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: a water tower, and a rescue company had all arrived, 194 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: along with other emergency responders. Other people soon on the 195 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: scene included Boston Mayor Maurice J. Tobin, the Fire Commissioner, 196 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: the Building Commissioner, the Police Commissioner and the Superintendent of Police, 197 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: the State Fire Marshal, Boston's acting Commissioner of Public Safety, 198 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: and the director of the Boston Committee on Public Safety 199 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: were all there as well. Civilian defense units arrived, as 200 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: well as people from the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. 201 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: The military was involved in the response as well. A 202 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: call went out to Boston Navy Yard at about ten pm, 203 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: and members of the Navy Army, Coast Guard, National Guard, 204 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: and the Naval Hospital in Chelsea, Massachusetts were all involved 205 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: in the response. And of course there were also many 206 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: civilians who came and tried to help, and we're not 207 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: affiliated with any specific group. By coincidence, the club's owner, 208 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: Barney Wolanski, was not present. He was at Massachusetts General 209 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: Hospital recovering from a heart attack he had experienced days before. Tragically, 210 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: it really did not matter how quickly the fire department 211 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: or any of these other responders got there. The fire 212 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: had just been much faster and people were already dead 213 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: and dying. In the words of Fire Commissioner William Arthur 214 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: Riley's official report quote, within two to five minutes of 215 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: the first appearance of the fire, most of the possible exits, 216 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: including all exits normally open to the public, were useless. 217 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: Pouring of fire through such exits made it impossible for 218 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: humans to pass simultaneously through these exits safely. In the 219 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: course of such pouring, the mass of burning gaseous material 220 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: appears to have been depressed from its high elevation within 221 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: the premises in order to pass through the exits. The 222 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: finding of bodies piled up at many of the exits 223 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: is attributable to this fact. These persons, in attempting to 224 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: pass through the exits, were overcome by the great heat 225 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: of the gaseous material pouring through them. At the same time, 226 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: to the same cause must be set down the bodies 227 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: found in the passageway in the corridor at the head 228 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: of the stairway leading from the melody Lounge. In pouring 229 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: through these low seed linked passageways, the mass of gaseous 230 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: material passed so close to such persons as to overcome them. 231 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: Most of the people who survived the fire had managed 232 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: to get out of the building before the flames reached 233 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: the doorways. A few people made it up to the roof. 234 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: Some of them jumped down onto the roofs of parked 235 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: cars below. While others found a adder, although this ladder 236 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: wasn't long enough to reach to the ground from the roof, 237 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: so the people on the roof were trying to hold 238 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: it up for people to climb down as far as 239 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: they could and then dropped to the ground from the 240 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: bottom of it. Once firefighters spotted people on the roof, 241 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: they moved in to help bring them down. A few 242 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: people got out through windows, but most of the windows 243 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: were glass block windows that just could not be opened 244 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: or broken. Coconut Grove employees and entertainers who knew the 245 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: layout of the building made their way out through the 246 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: kitchen or other non public areas, and some customers did 247 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: manage to follow them out. A few people survived by 248 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: hiding in one of the walk in refrigerators. Some in 249 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: the melody lounge survived by simply covering their faces with 250 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: a wet cloth and lying on the floor below the 251 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: flames until the fire was over and rescuers could get 252 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: into the building. Even though the city of Boston had 253 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: just been through a big drill about exactly such an 254 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: occurrence for spawning to a catastrophe of this size was 255 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: still really challenging. Many of the streets around the club 256 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: were small, Some of them were paved with cobblestones, and 257 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: they quickly became jammed with emergency vehicles and people, including bystanders, 258 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: people who needed emergency medical care, and the bodies of 259 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: people who had died. They're also simply were not enough 260 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: ambulances to carry so many people to hospitals. People were 261 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: transported to the hospital in delivery trucks, taxi cabs, basically 262 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: any other vehicle that could be used. Most of the 263 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: victims were taken to one of two hospitals, Boston City 264 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: Hospital and Massachusetts General Hospital. Boston City Hospital received three 265 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: hundred victims of the fire over the course of only 266 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: an hour. Rescuers started sending more people to m g 267 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: H when it became clear that Boston City Hospital was overwhelmed, 268 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: and MGH received a hundred and fourteen people over the 269 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: course of about two hours. Much smaller numbers of people 270 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: were sent to hospitals elsewhere in Boston and in neighboring cities, 271 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: including Cambridge and Malden. At many of the hospitals, patients 272 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: started arriving around a shift change that meant that extra 273 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: people were already on hand, but the hospital still needed 274 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: help from other medical personnel all over the area beyond 275 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: the sheer numbers of patients. One of the challenges that 276 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: the hospitals faced was that the ratio of injured and 277 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 1: dead was very different from most major fires and other disasters. Often, 278 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: far more people are injured than are killed, but in 279 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: the Coconut Grove fire, far more people were killed than 280 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: were injured. The hospitals were receiving so many people who 281 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: were dead by the time they arrived, or who died 282 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: very shortly after arriving, that it created delays in treating 283 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: the people who were still living, whose injuries weren't fatal, 284 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 1: but who really did need to be treated as quickly 285 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: as possible. Eventually, a temporary morgue was set up in 286 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: a parking deck across the street from the grove to 287 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: try to reduce the number of dead who wound up 288 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: at the hospitals, but in a few cases, people who 289 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: were taken to the temporary morgue turned out to still 290 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: be alive. In many disasters like these, it takes a 291 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: long time to get a final death count, but in 292 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: the case of the Coconut Grove fire, that was established 293 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: very quickly, less than twelve hours after the fire, the 294 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: known death toll had already passed four hundred. What took 295 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: a lot longer was identifying the bodies. Many people had 296 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: died of asphyxiation or smoke in elation, and their clothing 297 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: was mostly intact, so anyone carrying their i d In 298 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: a wallet or in their pockets definitely identified fairly quickly, 299 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: But most people who had carried their i d In 300 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: a purse or in a handbag had lost it in 301 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: the scramble to escape, so in general, many women's bodies 302 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: took much longer to identify, especially before a responders set 303 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: up a centralized information hub. This led to problems at 304 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: the hospitals as people desperately tried to get information about 305 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: missing loved ones who had not yet been identified. The 306 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: people killed as a result of the fire included Buck Jones, 307 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: who died in the hospital two days later. Only one 308 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: of the people who had been at his party escaped uninjured, 309 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: and more than half died. Fifty one servicemen and two 310 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: members of the Women's Army Corps were killed, and another 311 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: twenty seven servicemen were injured. This was so many that 312 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: it raised suspicions that this had been an intentional act 313 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: of wartime sabotage, and that prompted the First Naval District 314 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: to conduct its own investigation into the fire. For a while, 315 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: this fire displaced World War Two on the front page 316 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 1: of Boston's newspapers and some of the newspapers in the region. 317 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: After another quick sponsor break, we're going to talk about 318 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: investigations into the fire's cause and its aftermath and some 319 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: of the advances that came about in the wake of 320 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: the fire. Like we said at the top of the show, 321 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: we're coming up on the eightieth anniversary of the Coconut 322 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: Grove fire, but we still don't know exactly how it 323 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: started or why it burned the way that it did. 324 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: It was an extremely hot and fast moving, deadly fire, 325 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: while also leaving sections of carpeting and decor and some 326 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: of the furniture essentially untouched. But immediately after the fire, 327 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: news reports in Boston placed the blame on one specific 328 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: person who still often comes up today, and that's the 329 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: bus boy who had let the match. That was Stanley Tomaschowski, 330 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 1: who was only sixteen. Stanley was an honors student at 331 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: Roxbury Middle School for Boys. His mother was seriously ill 332 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: and he was supplementing his father's in as a janitor 333 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: by working at the grove on busy weekends. While it 334 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: is clear that he did light a match, it is 335 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: not at all clear that that match started the fire. 336 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: This was an arrow when smoking indoors was a lot 337 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: more common, and businesses, including Coconut Grove, routinely handed out 338 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: matchbooks to customers, so this certainly was not the only 339 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: match lit in the lounge that night. Investigations also reveal 340 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: a lot of problems with the building's electrical wiring, and 341 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: its most recent electrical work had not been done by 342 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: a licensed electrician. It's possible that the act of loosening 343 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: and tightening that lightbulb had led to a spark that 344 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: ignited the fire, or that a spark came from one 345 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: of the blower units used to heat the lounge, or 346 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: some other source. Entirely. Boston Fire Commissioner William Arthur Riley 347 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: cleared Stanley of any blame in his official report, writing quote, 348 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: after a careful study of all the evidence, and in 349 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: an analysis of all the facts presented before me, I 350 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: am unable to find the conduct of this boy was 351 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: the cause of the fire. State Fire Marshal Stephen C. 352 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: Garrity came to the same conclusion quoted in is saying quote, 353 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: it is clear to me that he did not ignite 354 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 1: the palm tree in the Melody Lounge. The official report 355 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: on the fire described it as being of unknown origin, 356 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: but early news reports described Stanley as having unquestionably started 357 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: the fire, even though friends, teachers, and others came to 358 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: his defense, and later news reports walked this back. Stanley 359 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: and his family had to stay in a hotel under 360 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: police protection for months, and he continued to deal with 361 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: things like harassing phone calls and threats about it for 362 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. He died in Even if 363 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: Stanley's match is what started the fire, he the bartender, 364 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: and other employees had immediately tried to extinguish it, and 365 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: none of them had anything to do with the factors 366 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: that made this fire so deadly. It's still not clear 367 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: at all exactly why it burned so hot and so fast. 368 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: One possibility is that there was a methyl chloride leak 369 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: from the club's air conditioners. Methyl chloride, also called chloro methane, 370 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: is a flammable gas that was used as a refrigerant. 371 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: Another possibility is that the asbestos tiles in the ceilings 372 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: had been held down with a flammable glue. A third 373 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: possibility is that there was just a lot of alcohol 374 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: present and a lot of flammable material had been used 375 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: as part of the furnishings and the decor. The design 376 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: of the building certainly played a role, with parts of 377 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: it essentially acting as chimneys. Vents over stages to allow 378 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: fires to escape upward and out of the building were 379 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: required by law, but they were not in place at 380 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: Coconut Grove. But one of the most critical actors and 381 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: the fires deadliness was the building's exits. The building had 382 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: six exits on the ground floor and three in the basement, 383 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: but out of these nine exits, only three of them 384 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: could be opened by the public. One door was equipped 385 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: with a panic bar that should have opened it to 386 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: the outside if somebody pressed on the bar, but that 387 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: bar had been disabled with a bolt. According to some sources, 388 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: the door was actually bolted shut. Into places like exactly 389 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: how this door was shut. There's a couple of different 390 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: accounts of a door out of the Broadway Lounge opened inwards, 391 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: so while some people were able to get out of 392 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: it at first, once it was shut, people were jammed 393 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: up against it and they couldn't get it open again. 394 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: One door had been bricked completely over. A lot of 395 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: people concluded that Barney Willlanski had locked and covered over 396 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: the doors to keep people from leaving without paying their bill, 397 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: although at least some of this might have gone back 398 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: to the nightclubs earlier time as a speakeasy, and the 399 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: fact that none of the exits were marked meant that 400 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: most people tried to escape by going out the way 401 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: they came in. As we said, that was through those 402 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: revolving doors onto Piedmont Street. Revolving doors were invented in 403 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties, and they're really useful for energy efficiency 404 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: and for cutting down on street noise inside a building, 405 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: but it was obvious from the beginning that they could 406 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: become blocked in an emergency like a fire. The National 407 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: Fire Protection Association already recommended that revolving doors be flanked 408 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: on either side with standard hinged doors, but at Coconut 409 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Grove they were not, and the immediate aftermath of the fire, 410 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: all of Boston's nightclubs were closed for a week. The 411 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: use of revolving doors was temporarily banned. With revolving doors 412 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: removed from Boston City Hall just days after the fire. 413 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: Once the ban on revolving doors was lifted, they were 414 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: required to be installed with adjacent hinged doors, just the 415 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: configuration you usually see today. It also became clear that 416 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: this was not simply an issue of needing new and 417 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: better laws or fire codes, but that existing laws and 418 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: codes were not being enforced. Some of the exact same 419 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: problems at Coconut Grove had contributed to earlier fires. As 420 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: we said at the top of the show, the deadliest 421 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: single building fire in US history was the Iroquois Theater fire, 422 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: almost forty years before, and in many ways these fires 423 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: were extremely similar. Both buildings lacked emergency lighting, had exits 424 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: that were obscured and locked or that patrons couldn't get open, 425 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: lacked required sealing, ventilation over the stages, just on and on. 426 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: In both fires, rescuers had to remove piles of bodies 427 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: that were blocking doorways before they could get through them 428 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: to the people inside. Just a couple of days after 429 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: the Coconut Grow fire, Robert Moulton, technical secretary of the 430 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: National Fire Protection Association, was quoted in a press release 431 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: is saying, quote the Coconut Grove nightclub tragedy is clearly 432 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: due to gross violation of several fundamental principles of fire safety, 433 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: which had been demonstrated by years of experience in other fires, 434 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: and which should be known to everybody. In light of 435 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: all of this, people were outraged to learn that a 436 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: Boston fire captain had inspected Coconut Grove less than two 437 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: weeks before the fire and had found it to be safe. 438 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: Another source of outrage was rumors that Barney Wolanski had 439 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: bragged that he didn't need to follow the fire code 440 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: because the mayor was a friend of his. Mayor Tobin 441 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: denied that Welanski was getting any kind of special privileges, 442 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: but people really doubted that he would face any kind 443 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: of consequences for the fire. Welanski was Jewish, and a 444 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: lot of discussion about how much he was to blame 445 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: was also threaded through with anti semitism. A grand jury 446 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: indicted ten people on very as charges connected to the fire. 447 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: Fire Department Inspector Lieutenant Frank J. Lenney for neglect of 448 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: duty and as an accessory after the fact, Captain Joseph 449 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: Bucha Gross for neglecting to enforce fire laws, a designer 450 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: contractor and foreman, who had all worked on the nightclub, 451 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: were all indicted for conspiracy to violate building laws. Boston 452 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: City building inspector Theodore el Dratcher was indicted for failing 453 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: to report building law violations, including lack of sufficient exits, 454 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: and Barney Willanski and his brother James, who was in 455 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: charge of the club that night, were indicted for both 456 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: manslaughter and conspiracy to violate the building laws. But of 457 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: all these indictments, only Willanski was convicted. He was convicted 458 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: of nineteen counts of manslaughter and sentence to twelve to 459 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: fifteen years in prison. It was technically for each count 460 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: he had been convicted on, but they were going to 461 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: be served concurrently this trial. Commonwealth versus Welansky also said 462 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: a precedent that a person didn't have to be actively 463 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: behaving in a reckless or dangerous way, like personally starting 464 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: a fire to be considered guilty of manslaughter. Disregarding safety 465 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: standards that led to people's death or a failure to 466 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: act was enough. Wellanski served about four years of his sentence. 467 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: He was pardoned by Maurice Tobin, who had become governor 468 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. After developing terminal cancer, Wellansky died about nine 469 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: weeks after being released. Civil suits had been filed against 470 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: him after the fire, but he had almost no assets 471 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: to pay it with, so there was very little compensation 472 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: to survivors and the families of people who died. The 473 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: fire Commissioner's report made a series of recommendations to prevent 474 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: similar future tragedies. They included requiring automatic sprinklers, banning the 475 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: use of basements as places of assembly unless those basements 476 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: met specific requirement for safe exits, requiring aisle spaces around 477 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: restaurant tables which needed to be secured to the floor 478 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: so that they couldn't be overturned and become an obstacle 479 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: in an emergency, requiring illuminated exit signs and panic locks 480 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: at all doors, Banning decor that contained peroxyl in, which 481 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: is a flammable form of cellulose, and requiring basement rooms 482 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: that were used as places of assembly to have windows 483 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: that could open up automatically and draw off flames and 484 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: gases in the event of a fire. The National Fire 485 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: Protection Association also revised its safety codes in the wake 486 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: of this and other major fires. This code was originally 487 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: written to provide guidelines for contractors, builders, and building inspectors. 488 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: But after these fires in the nineteen forties, the National 489 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: Fire Protection Association also revised the way the code was 490 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: written so that its language could be used as the 491 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: basis for laws and official fire codes. That n f 492 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: p A doesn't have in horsement powers over the codes 493 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: that it recommends, that enforcement falls to governments. But a 494 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: lot of these things that made the Coconut Grow fire 495 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: so deadly are still issues today. For example, the fourth 496 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: deadliest nightclub fire in the US happens less than twenty 497 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: years ago. That was the Station nightclub fire in Rhode Island, 498 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: which started when stage pyrotechnics ignited flammable acoustic foam. A 499 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: hundred people died and more than two hundred were injured, 500 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: and various fire codes had not been followed that included 501 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: a requirement for sprinklers to be installed in buildings with 502 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: an occupancy of more than a hundred people. In addition 503 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: to its impact on things like fire codes, the Coconut 504 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: Grow fire led to advances in the treatment of burns 505 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: and respiratory injuries sustained in fires. This research was already 506 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: underway due to World War Two. The fires that occurred 507 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: during attacks like the Blitz and the bombing of Pearl 508 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Harbor to large numbers of people sustaining serious burns. The 509 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: National Research Council had been funding research through Harvard Medical School, 510 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: which was being carried out in conjunction with Massachusetts General 511 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: Hospital and Boston General Hospital. At the time, serious burns 512 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: were often treated using a process known as tanning, using 513 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: either a combination of three antimicrobial dyes or tannic acid. 514 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: Both of these methods required the burns to be heavily 515 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: dibrided and scrubbed. That was often done under anesthesia because 516 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: it was just so painful, and because of the war, 517 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: anesthesia was in short supply, so people had already been 518 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: trying to find other ways to successfully treat burns. Dr 519 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: Oliver Cope at MGH had developed a burn treatment protocol 520 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: that involved a boric acid ointment and wraps that were 521 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: infused with petroleum jelly that could be used without so 522 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: much debridement. Boston City High Hospital, which is part of 523 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: Boston Medical Center today, they started out treating victims of 524 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: the Coconut Grove fire with either the triple die or 525 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: tanic acid methods, but they phased those out in favor 526 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: of a boric acid protocol that was similar to what 527 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: Coke was using at MGH. Doctors in both hospitals also 528 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: made advances in figuring out when and whether antibiotics were 529 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: helpful in treating burns. SOLFA drugs were commonly used in 530 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: burn treatments, and at m g H they were part 531 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: of initial treatments for all burned patients. Penicillin was also 532 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: brand new at this point, when nearly all of it 533 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: being used for the military. Some of it was diverted 534 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: into Boston to treat people who had survived the fire, 535 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: which was one of the earliest uses of penicillin in 536 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: the United States outside of clinical trials. Doctors found that 537 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: antibiotics made the most difference in patients with full thickness burns, 538 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: but were often unnecessary and patients whose burns were not 539 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: as deep as long as an infection was not introduced 540 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: into the wound. Yeah, maintaining a sterile area was really 541 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: important for that. As we said earlier, blood banks were 542 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: fairly new. The one at MGH had just been established 543 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: that same year, and m g H had two units 544 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: of dried plasma on hand in the event of some 545 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: kind of wartime need in Boston, Prior to this point, 546 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: a lot of medical experts had been cautious about giving 547 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 1: a lot of fluids to burn patients. There were concerns 548 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: that doing so might lead them to develop pulmonary edema. 549 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: It became clear, though, through treating all of these patients, 550 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: that fluid therapies really helped patients heal without causing pulmonary edema. 551 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: Through treating the victims of the Coconut grove fire, doctors 552 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: also gained a much greater understanding of how often a 553 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: burn patient's biggest issue was a respiratory injury rather than 554 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: the burns on their skin. Many people arrived at the 555 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: hospital in serious condition but did not outwardly appear injured. 556 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: Some even walked into the hospital under their own power, 557 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: but then collapsed after getting there. Some had clear signs 558 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: of carbon monoxide poisoning, but others had respiratory damage from 559 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: inhaling hot toxic gases and smoke. People whose noses and 560 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: mouths were burned, or who had lost consciousness inside the 561 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: building seemed to be at the greatest risk. This is 562 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: not even everything. For example, the entire June volume of 563 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: Annals of Surgery was devoted to developments made at m 564 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,479 Speaker 1: g H while treating victims of the Coconut growth fire. 565 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: The forward to this issue of the journal was written 566 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: by Dr Oliver Cope, and papers in it covered topics 567 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: like protocols, shock pulmonary complications, resuscitating people whose airways were burned, 568 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: surface burned treatments, infections and antibiotics, rehabilitation and physical therapy, 569 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: and hospital administration issues. And article on neuropsychiatric observations was 570 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: authored by Dr Stanley Cobb and Eric Lindeman. Cobb was 571 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: a neurologist who helped establish a department of psychiatry at 572 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: m GH, and some of his work focused on the 573 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: connection between the mind and the body. Lindemann was a 574 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: psychiatrist whose focus was on bereavement and grief. They described 575 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: patients whose recoveries were impacted by a state of acute 576 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: grief and trauma, including an early description of what would 577 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: come to be known as post traumatic stress disorder. This 578 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: research also became part of Lindeman's nineteen forty four paper 579 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: Symptomatology and Management of Acute Grief. The Dr Lindeman especially 580 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: did a lot of work on trauma and grief and 581 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: became really groundbreaking with a lot of that. The area 582 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: where Coconut Grove used to be is really different now 583 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: than it was in ninety two. Various streets have been 584 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: renamed or moved. There's a hotel and condos where the 585 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: nightclub used to be. And nine three, the Bay Village 586 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: Neighborhood Association installed a memorial plaque made by fire survivor 587 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: Anthony P. Mara on Piedmont Street at the approximate site 588 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: of where the revolving door had been. In Shawmant Street extension, 589 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: which connected Shawmant Street with Piedmont Street was renamed Coconut 590 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: Grove Lane. In the memorial plaque was removed so the 591 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: condos could be built, with the agreement that it be 592 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: returned to its original location after construction was done. Instead, 593 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: the plaque was moved farther down the street. Condo owners 594 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 1: wrote to the Bay Village Neighborhood Association saying, quote, only 595 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: a small portion of our building overlays the site of 596 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: the club. We now occupy these homes with our families 597 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: as part of the Bay Village Neighborhood and would like 598 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: to enjoy our homes in peace without tragic memories hanging 599 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 1: reaths at our doors and tourists peaking into our houses. 600 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: People were very upset with a sense that rich people 601 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: buying three condos were putting their feelings over the memory 602 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: of victims and survivors and their descendants. I found one 603 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: article that interpreted this as the correct decision, and many 604 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: others by people who either were livid about it, or 605 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: like reporters trying to sound neutral, who clearly we're also 606 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: livid about it. The Coconut Grove Memorial Committee is a 607 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,439 Speaker 1: nonprofit that was established in to try to establish an 608 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: actual memorial for the victims of the Coconut Grove fire, 609 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: as well as to survivors, first responders, and medical professionals, 610 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 1: rather than only having this plaque in one The Boston 611 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: City Council awarded two fifty thousand dollars in Community Preservation 612 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: Act funds for a memorial at Statler Park, which is 613 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: a small park that's not far away from where the 614 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: night club was. The current proposed design for this memorial 615 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: involves a set of three archways to resemble that arch 616 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: entryway into Coconut Grove. A documentary called Six Locked Doors 617 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: played at various film festivals in twenty nineteen. It's been 618 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: aired on various PBS stations around the region since then. 619 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: As of when we're recording this, there are two known 620 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: survivors of the fire who were still living. Both of 621 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: them were only eighteen when the fire happened, So that 622 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: as a Coconut Grove nightclub fire, that's a rough one. 623 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: Do you have some listener may I do? This is 624 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: from Jen and Jen wrote about um our Helen Duncan episode, 625 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: and Jen said, Dear Holly and Tracy, I adore your 626 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: show and hearing about people, places and events that are 627 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: new to me, as it broadens my knowledge and provides 628 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: context for so many modern events that I would otherwise lack. 629 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for making the past present. I also like 630 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: it when a story touches closer to home, and your 631 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: recent episode about Helen Duncan is one such episode. As 632 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: a friend of mine met Helen Duncan. Jen goes on 633 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about how this friend is 634 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: in their later years at this point, at least in 635 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: at least in his eighties, and they know one another 636 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: from church. A few years ago. I was talking to 637 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: my friend and we got onto the subject of Helen Duncan. 638 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 1: He then gestured for me to lean in and whispered 639 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: that when he was sixteen he had been to a 640 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: seance by Helen Duncan. He was taken by his minister. 641 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: At the time. This was a big taboo within Presbyterianism, 642 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: which is why he whispered it, as even today he 643 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: didn't want other members of the church to know in 644 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,479 Speaker 1: case they disapproved. Despite it now being no big deal. 645 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: It's also why I'm not naming him. He talked about 646 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: how she strode across the stage like a tiger. I 647 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: asked him if he thought she was genuine, knowing the 648 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: fact that she was convicted for being a false medium, 649 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: and without any hesitation, he proclaimed that she was the 650 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: real deal. He was convinced that night that she contacted 651 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: the deads picking up on the favorite color flower of 652 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: that one person had in their garden, and the smell 653 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 1: of pigs from some people visiting Edinburgh from an outside 654 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: village who kept pigs at their place. It was fascinating 655 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: to think an old friend of mine met and engaged 656 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: with such a famous historical figure, and to hear his 657 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: experience of one of her seances. These things are not 658 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: as far in the past as we might think, and 659 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: these personal connections to the subjects of the podcast are 660 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: still alive and thriving. Jen then asked if it was 661 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: okay to Um to burn a copy of the episode 662 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: onto a CD for her friends to listen to, because 663 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: he does not really know how to do podcasts. Uh. 664 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: If you if you want to burn an episode of 665 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: a podcast onto a CD for your own personal use, 666 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: that is generally fine. UM and Jen also sent some 667 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: really great pictures of a cat named Tibby Tippy You 668 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: Jenn was not able to see for a really long time, 669 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 1: as as things as travel was not happening during the pandemic. UM, 670 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: So thank you so much Jen for sending this. I 671 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: wanted to read it because one of the things Jen notes, 672 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,919 Speaker 1: and the part of this that I kind of skimmed over, 673 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: is that Presbyterianism today is a lot more progressive than 674 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: it was in the nineteen forties when we talked in 675 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: that episode about how there had been one account that 676 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: said that Helen Duncan's parents said she was going to 677 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: be burned in the steak if she kept doing this 678 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: talking to spirits Um. They had said specifically that it 679 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: was because they were Presbyterian, And I just wasn't able 680 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: to really confirm whether that was the case, and so 681 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: I did not get into that particular detail, but the 682 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: fact that it came back up again in this um, 683 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: in this email, uh made me want to read it also. UM, 684 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: I hope Jen's friend is not disappointed in the episode, 685 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: since we made it clear in the episode that a 686 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: lot of the stuff she was doing with manifestations was 687 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: pretty easily pointed at as like not not the real thing. 688 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: But we also said in the behind the scenes that like, 689 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,720 Speaker 1: we don't know if she felt she was she really 690 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: truly sincerely felt she was speaking to spirits or not, 691 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: or if well we really know. So thank you again, 692 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: Jim for this note and for the cap picture and 693 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: for giving us a chance to read this. If you 694 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: would like to send us a note about this or 695 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: any other podcast, where a history podcast at I heart 696 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 1: radio dot com. We're also all over social media at 697 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: miss in History. That's where you'll find our Facebook, Twitter, 698 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: Pinterson Instagram, and you can subscribe to our show on 699 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app and wherever else you'd like 700 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: to get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class 701 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 702 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 703 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.