1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you so 3 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. We are recording on what was 4 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: once called Friday, and what a week it's been. Uh. 5 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: This is an episode that I think all three of 6 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: us have been looking forward to, and we kept we 7 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: kept needing to push it off further and further. So 8 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: we've had a lot of time to think about weird 9 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: tangents and that may show up in today's episode. Uh my, 10 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: my weird tangent for this is related to peep Show. 11 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: I love it, Mitchell and Webb production. Uh, the entire time, 12 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: always watching Peep Show, I was certain that one of 13 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: the characters was named Super Hand, like his hands were 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: super anyway, I'm Ben, I'm no, yeah, but in fact 15 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: he's Super Hans, like the German name, the name that 16 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: I associate with Hans Brinker and the silver skates. Do 17 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: you know that story? Yeah? I think more Hans a Gretel, 18 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: but yeah, the silver skates. What's that? I I don't 19 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: remember what happens and m I just know he's he's 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: a he's an ice skater and he has these silver skates. 21 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: And they're somehow blessed with the power of the gods. 22 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: Then there's Hans Christian Anderson. He's a big as well. Right. Uh, 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: who's you have? We've got Hans Zimmer. Uh, the famous 24 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: film composer, Hans and Franz. That's yeah, well that one 25 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: has an aged very well. That one's a stereotype. But 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: you know always ages very well. As our super producer 27 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram. You know, no, I always think of Hans 28 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: and Gretel. Uh, hansl Wait, it's Hans and but you 29 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: can call him Hans for sure, no doubt. If you're 30 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: if you're friends, right, Uh, yeah, it's it's strange. I 31 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: think it's a cool nickname. We actually have a new 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: coworker in our virtual office named Hans. I believe am 33 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: I making that up? We have a Hans. You've got 34 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: a Hans. He's he's in charge of all the Will 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,119 Speaker 1: Ferrell stuff, the Big Money Players network. That's right, That's right, 36 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: We'll go you Hans. Uh. Hans is a great name. 37 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: I still think super hands. It's a funny name. Today's 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: episode is about a Hans, a very intelligent Hans, Hans 39 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: who was so intelligent in fact, that he was known 40 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: as Clever Hans uh, and it was all due to 41 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: his mathematical prowess. I don't know how cool would it be, 42 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: like if you had a descriptor for your name like 43 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: blank case your blank knoll or uh blank bend, like 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, magnificent casey or uh numismatic Noel. I don't 45 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: know that's that's like it sounds like the type of 46 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: nickname one might give themselves, and the hopes that people 47 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: did not realize that was the case. But that was 48 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: definitely not the case with Clever Hans because surprise, surprise, 49 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: Clever Hans not a human a horse, right, A horse 50 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: is a horse? Of course, of course, remember Mr Ed. 51 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: I think they made him look like he was talking 52 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: by putting peanut butter on his teeth, so he would 53 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: like eat the peanut butter off his teeth and then 54 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: they would like, you know, do bad like lip syncy 55 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of horse lines. Well, a lot of the a 56 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: lot of the plot points seemed relatively anticlimactic upon a rewatch, 57 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: But you know, I missed those days where TV executives 58 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: were apparently like just catch us on a good day 59 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: and throws the craziest things you can imagine at us 60 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: we might say yes to what kind of like how 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: podcasting used to be. But things things are tightening up 62 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: a little bit, I would say, largely for the better. 63 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: But speaking of you know, golden times, you know, for culture. Uh, 64 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: there was a time in the early twentieth century when 65 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: the public was fascinated with this idea of wonder animals, 66 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: which were domesticated animals that could do everything from uh, 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: solve riddles, um, do math problems, even somehow you know, 68 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: have discourse with their owners about things as high minded 69 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: as as philosophy, or even predict the weather in some 70 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: cases tell people's fortunes by you know, pulling a strip 71 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: of paper with a message on it, forth from some 72 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: collection of strips of paper. This story takes place in 73 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: that era, in the realm of the wonder animal fad. 74 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: It's almost it was almost too extreme to be known 75 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: as of fad because it was so prevalent, was so 76 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: ubiquitous at the time. So Hans, as you said, Noel 77 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: is a horse, and according to the public at the time, 78 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: he was a very very, very very lever horse. According 79 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: to a German math teacher named Wilhelm Vaughan, Austin. Just 80 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: see that's the right pronunciation. Is it with an O? 81 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: Or with it? Probably with an oh? Isn't it Osten? 82 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: Maybe it's astin Osten. There we go, it's got that Austen. Yeah. 83 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: So Vaughan Ousten is is a guy who is determined 84 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: to prove the full potential for intelligence in the animal kingdom. 85 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,119 Speaker 1: And he went through a number of phases, a couple 86 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: of also rans. Right. He he taught a cat, or 87 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: he tried to teach a cat and a bear how 88 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: to add and then he came up with his like 89 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: crowning success, which was this horse Hans. And we have 90 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: to mention too that before this time, psychologist and the 91 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: general public, experts and layman alike didn't really think about 92 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: whether animals had all those kind of those cognitive pieces 93 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: that we just considered part of the human existence, like emotions, consciousness, intelligence. 94 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: I know, every pet owner out here is like, my 95 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: dog has all three or my cat is a monster 96 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: or something. Well, and you know we've talked about this 97 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: and got all the time. I mean, how humans kind 98 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: of have this desire to make everything human like and 99 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: to kind of anthropomorphize you know, animals. Um, that's why 100 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: I like animal cartoons that like walk around and where 101 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: pants are so popular. I remember that guy that that 102 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: drew the cats wearing pants. That was a huge craze 103 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: that we talked to Gabe about. I've already forgotten his 104 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: name because I'm a bad person, but I remember the 105 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: cats wearing pants and how popular they were, And it's 106 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: because people love to do that, to see ourselves in 107 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: cute and cuddly creatures, even when none of those traits exists. So, 108 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: for example, you know, we'd like to think that that 109 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: a horse or a raccoon or some other creature could 110 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: do these things and we are able to imbue them 111 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: with humanlike powers. But chances are they've been heavily trained 112 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: and are responding to very specific cues and are essentially 113 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: just you know, performing wrote tasks at the behest of 114 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: a trainer or master. Um. Not to spoil anything, but 115 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: this whole thing does kind of blow up, uh in 116 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: the face of of von Austin and also the whole 117 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: culture of animal wonder animals um as well. Yeah, so 118 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: Clever Hans is sort of the harbinger or the catalyst 119 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: for what would come to be this enormous wonder animal 120 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: fat or era. So in the early nineteen hundreds, Clever 121 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: Hans starts getting into the news, the media of the day, because, 122 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: as you would alluded to knowl he could solve math 123 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: problems or appear to do so, and pretty complex ones 124 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: like not just adding four plus seven plus nine divided 125 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: by two or something like that. But he could apparently 126 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: also do square roots and carry on simple conversations, all 127 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: by a primitive of uh form of communication. He would 128 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: tap his hoofs so, hey, Hans, how many garbonzo beans 129 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: are in this line? And Hans would be like and like, 130 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: WHOA three beans? That's amazing. And if I'm not mistaken, 131 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: when Mr Ed didn't want to be heard by other 132 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: humans besides his master, he would do stuff very similar 133 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: to that. If you wanted to communicate with Wilbur but 134 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: someone else is in the room, he would buck his 135 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: head or stomp his foot to like indicate. So I'm 136 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: pretty sure that that character was probably inspired by all 137 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: this wonder animal business. But that's just me conjecturing there. Yeah, 138 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: I think you're on the spot there, because the creators 139 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: had to be aware of it. Because Clever Hans is 140 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, Mr Ed is nineteen sixties. I still, 141 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the expert on the world building 142 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: or mythology of Mr. Ed, but I don't understand why 143 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: they had to keep him a secret, you know what 144 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: I mean? Why can't it just be like, hey, this 145 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: worse can talk to you. People love that. People love animals, 146 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: and they love the idea of animals talking, except for 147 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: maybe cats. I said, I know, I sound like I'm 148 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: being in on cats, but I have to here, and 149 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: you've probably heard them on the show. So clever Hans 150 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: is not the first of these incredibly intelligent animals, at 151 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: least to the mind of the German public. He's just 152 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: the most popular, and he's kind of writing a trend 153 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: in the Zeitgeist. People were interested in seeing the intellectual 154 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: abilities of non human animals because they thought it could 155 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: imply further things, things that went beyond intelligence to the 156 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: realm of the metaphysical. If an animal can debate philosophy 157 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 1: with us, the reasoning goes, might it not also have sentience? 158 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: Might it not also have something like a soul? It's 159 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: a profound and noble question. But also, you know, this 160 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: is a world where um magitians and like traveling shows 161 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 1: had trained horses, dogs, parrots, peacocks, things like that to 162 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: appear to be capable of reading and writing. Ben, I 163 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: remembering a hard time remembering all of the details. And 164 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: we do a lot of these and they get a 165 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: little fuzzy over time. But we did an episode about 166 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: like a farm that was stocked with these kind of 167 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: show animals that would do tricks and like a chicken 168 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: that could solve math problems in sort of like a 169 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: skinner box type of situation by pecking on things. Remember this? 170 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, what was the deal with that one? 171 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: I feel like I shouldn't even bring it up if 172 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: we don't have any remotely identifiable characteristics about it other 173 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: than they were like smart animals. It turned into a 174 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: TV phenomenon and then like it all kind of like 175 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: fell out of fashion, and I feel like, yeah, exactly, 176 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: someone screaming the name about this at us right now, 177 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: But hopefully it's endearing, dear ridiculous historians that we sometimes 178 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: cannot remember our own show. But it's I bring it 179 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: up because this was part of kind of a traveling 180 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: showman type world. You know, before TV, um magicians and 181 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: traveling performers had often trained horses and dogs and pigeons 182 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: to do all kinds of things ranging from you know, 183 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: tricks and climbing up you know, those kind of poles 184 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: with the little rungs on the side, and diving horses 185 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: and all of that kind of thing that we probably 186 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: remember from movies. And also even like the idea of 187 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: having performing flee circuses, which is usually like a total 188 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: ruse I believe, where there was no actual fleas in 189 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: there and it was just little things attached to fishing lines. 190 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: Don't ruin this, don'll ruin this for me, dude, I'm 191 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: really sorry, dude, I hate to be the best. Also, also, 192 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: bro wrestling not real. That's fine, that's kind of series 193 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: that's not near the level of entertainment that a flee circuses. 194 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: That's totally fair. But we start seeing these tricks getting 195 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: a little more advanced, like teaching uh, some of these 196 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: animals to appear to be reading or doing arithmetic. There 197 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: was even a quote learned English dog that could supposedly 198 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: lecture on ancient Greek poetry in the seventeen fifties. I 199 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: don't know how they could confirm that. Um, we'll have 200 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: to do more research than that point. Well, well, uh, 201 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: we can confirm that it probably wasn't, you know, a 202 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: college level discourse. But also that's not the only smart 203 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: dog in town or in the world. At this time, 204 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: there was a French lecturer who had what was described 205 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: as a little savant dog that would assist him in 206 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: demonstrating properties of physics. And at this point, you know, 207 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us here in twenty have 208 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: a different association with the phrase wonder, because wonder now 209 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: is sort of always automatically a good thing, right, But 210 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: back then, wonder referred to something that didn't quite fit 211 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: in to the natural order of things or the divine orders. 212 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: So it could something that's wonder, wonderful or wondrous, could 213 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: be a miracle like sprouting wings or healing suddenly from 214 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: a wound, but it could also be infernal, diabolical, dark, 215 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: and occulted. So wonder animals were kind of edgy too. 216 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: That's really interesting, Ben, I think of like this, the 217 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: Eight Wonders of the World and stuff like that, So 218 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: I guess you're right, it could have a negative condition 219 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: with the nails. To think of Professor Martfolio's House of Wonders, 220 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, almost a stand in for like the word 221 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: oddities or like a freak show or something. Right, Um, 222 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: so this sort of does skirt that line, doesn't. It's 223 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: not as despicable and abusive as like say Carnie freak 224 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: show type situation where you're literally exploiting human beings. But 225 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: it's also not the best for you know, kind of 226 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: exploiting these animals and making on making them kind of 227 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: prants around for the amusement of others. I feel as 228 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: though they prefer to do other things than that, you know, 229 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: But I guess the livings a living if you're a schnauzer, 230 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: No cat food for you until you can fully explain 231 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the concept of the of Plato's cavern or or the 232 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: very least the Pythagorean theorem, right, jeez uh, we all 233 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: have to have jobs. Why what about you, Fido or 234 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: Tiger or whatever your name is. So this is there. 235 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: There's another factor here that's pretty interesting, and it's one 236 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: that I don't know about, you guys. I had not 237 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: given a lot of thought to this previously. I never 238 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: thought about when widespread pet ownership began because growing up 239 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: here in the West and in this day and age, 240 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: it's even if you don't have a pet. It's common 241 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: for other people to have pets, you know, they have 242 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: their dogs, have their cats and their paracats, They have 243 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: their serpents, their cockatoos, their rocks, their herm craps. Whatever. 244 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: Point is, a lot of people have pets. But back 245 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: at this time, widespread pet ownership was just becoming a thing. 246 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: Animals were around as sources of food and labor, as livestock, 247 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: and you had to be pretty upper crust to just 248 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: have a dog because you liked the dog, you know 249 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like a shizu uh shizu was just 250 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: for the elite. Schissy as a companion dog doesn't really 251 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: do anything, right, Shissy doesn't really apply here because I 252 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: believe it's from ancient China. But but that's the point, 253 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: Like you have to be doing pretty well in life 254 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: to just afford this distraction, this companion that doesn't do anything. 255 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: You're not gonna eat it. It's not gonna work for you. 256 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: Oh well, let me let me get an extra mouth 257 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: to feed. How about that? That's a flex right there, 258 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, I mean talk about weird flexes, historical or otherwise, 259 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: literally choosing to have this kind of useless thing. Okay, 260 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm clearly not a pet person when it's say this 261 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: prancing around with you that you have to feed and 262 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: clothe and take care of, and you know, sometimes in 263 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: the case of very extra pet parents clothes, put a 264 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: little sweaters on him and stuff. Victor Hugo of Les 265 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: miserab fame um was was such a pet owner. He 266 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: had a beloved poodle whose name seems to be lost 267 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: to the historical record or at least this Atlas Obscure 268 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: article that we're looking at, but apparently so beloved was 269 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: Victor Hugo's poodle, and so well treated was this beast 270 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: that it actually escaped and made the homeward bound esque 271 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: journey from Moscow back to Paris to be reunited with Hugo. 272 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: So we definitely know that that there is a bond 273 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: between animals and their owners that's kind of approaching something 274 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: like love. Is it, you know, just pure survival instinct? 275 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, if a poodle would make 276 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: that journey just to get back to the master's probably 277 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: for more than just you know, self preservation, right sure. Well, 278 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: way before there was widespread middle class ownership of pets, 279 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: dogs had been so so profoundly domesticated right there. It's 280 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: interesting there. We there are a lot of animals that 281 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: can be tamed, but the number of animals that we 282 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: would consider domesticated, that that number is actually very very small. Uh. 283 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: You know, cows, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats, by the way, 284 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: domesticated themselves, They're not even really on the list. So 285 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: dogs do experience, as will come to find, dogs do 286 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: experience emotions similar to those of humans. But this wasn't 287 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: something that the scientific community really grocked or got their 288 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: arms around at this time. We just knew that pets 289 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: appeared to be able to do some remarkable things. But 290 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: in any testing case in the eighteenth and nineteen century, uh, 291 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: it turned out that these are incredible claims didn't hold 292 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: up to scrutiny. A lot like people claiming to be 293 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: um mediums or to exercise some sort of supernatural power. 294 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: You see numerous reports of otherwise very very intelligent people saying, 295 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, my dog knows philosophy, not just in German 296 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: but also in Latin. My dog knows Latin. And and 297 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: then when someone tried to exhibit this for a critical audience, 298 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: they would find that those claims just didn't didn't bear up. 299 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: And that's the world in which Wilhelm Vaughan Oustin. Very 300 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: good then, thanks man, thanks, I was in my head, 301 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: I was practicing this. Uh, this is the world in 302 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: which van Oustin emerges. He is he's already had a 303 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: long career as a high school math teacher, he's retired. 304 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: He's a nineteenth century Berlin, and he gets fascinated with 305 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: this idea, right, He's desperately looking for something to fill 306 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: his twilight years. Where uh so why not you know, 307 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: teach animals to like do math and and and teach 308 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: classes for him? That'd be fun. Um. So, you know, 309 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: he definitely believed it seems that animal minds were very 310 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: similar to those of children, human children. And he actually 311 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: used some of the classroom techniques that he had, you know, 312 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: uh learned as a teacher himself, to work with his 313 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: Arabian stallion hans Um and his his notion was that 314 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: he was teaching hans not training him. So it's one 315 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: of these things too where it's like I think he 316 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: believed what he was doing. I don't think he was 317 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: setting out to like, you know, built a bunch of 318 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: rubes out of like, you know, their nickels or whatever. Um, 319 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: But let's see, let's see how the story goes. So 320 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: within a couple of years, Hans learned to count and 321 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: then do like basic math, and like you said at 322 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: the top, been using that uh, that series of hoof 323 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: taps uh. New York Times reported on this in nineteen 324 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: o four and was pretty glowing in their reviews. He 325 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: said that he could do what that, Hans could do 326 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: almost everything but talk, uh, and that included he could 327 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: tell time, UM, he could differentiate between different objects. Um, 328 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, like like different coins made of different material, 329 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: whether it be silver or gold, etcetera. And Von Austin 330 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: Um really wanted to separate Hans from all that other 331 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: stuff we were talking about before. Hans was different. Hans 332 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: wasn't one of these like weirdo oddity freak show animals. 333 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: He really was a learned of course in the in 334 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: the in the eyes of of his of the mind 335 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: of his owner. Um. And so he really kind of 336 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: pushed that line, which I think is what got it 337 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: so much more attention, because you know, those traveling Carni 338 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: type shows we were talking about, that's just part of Americana. 339 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: Everyone was used to that. There was something special about 340 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: that this kind of elevated into the next level, to 341 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: the point where the fricking New York Times is writing 342 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: about it, right, yeah, and this becomes something that is 343 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: debated in Salon's intellectual meeting places of the day. Let's 344 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: build out further one of the profound implications of this. 345 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: If science is proving that animals possess something like a 346 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: consciousness and therefore possibly something like the metaphysical concept of 347 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: a soul, then religious figures get involved, and scientific figures 348 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: get involved, often with contradictory aims. Because Charles Darwin's theory 349 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: of evolution still real hot new thing. This is before 350 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: everybody kind of forgot that his weird serial killeresque habit 351 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: of eating every animal he cataloged, he uh, he had 352 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: proposed in eighteen seventy two that animals and humans had 353 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: a share emotional inheritance from evolution, that all animals are 354 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: all you know, mammals at least could experience surprise, grief, 355 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: and pain, And for some religious figures this could be 356 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: seen as a threat to humanity's previous special status as 357 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: the only creature on earth with thoughts and feelings, which 358 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: seems like a lot to pull from you know, tap 359 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: tap tap tap tap kind of conversations. But there we are. Okay, 360 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: so we've basically established how clever Hans would communicate. But 361 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: maybe we can go in a little more detail about this. 362 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: So he had, as he said, it was very important 363 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: to him, very important of an Ousten that he was 364 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: teaching Hans right, not training him, and he did this 365 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: for more than a decade. Typically he would ask Hans 366 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: a question and Hans would either not his head for 367 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: a year us or a no, or he would tap 368 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: his foot his hoof rather to indicate numbers. He was 369 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: also said to be able to show directions by turning 370 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: his head. He could tell the difference between left and right. 371 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: He could recognize colors, he could read clocks, he could 372 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: identify playing cards, and he understood a large number of concepts. 373 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: Uh So, von Oastin would ask something like how much 374 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: is two fifths plus one half? And then Hans would answer, 375 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: I barely know the answer to that. I'd have to, 376 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, do some do some figure And math's never 377 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: been my strong suit. But yeah, it's true. I mean 378 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: it's certainly for a guy like me, you know, who 379 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: can barely add fractions, I certainly be impressed. I mean, 380 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: it's it's weird right that this horse says appears to 381 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: be pretty great with fractions. Hans would answer that question 382 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: how much is two five plus one half by tapping 383 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: nine times? Oh wait, now I have to count the 384 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: taps by tapping nine times, probably not that fast, and 385 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: then tapping ten more times, and that answer would be 386 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: interpreted as two fifths plus one half is nine tenths 387 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: And people were like, whoa do you do you think 388 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: there was ever a moment where clever Hans maybe hesitated 389 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: before the ninth tap, and people were just on the 390 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: edge of their seat, like, is he gonna get it? 391 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: So the only taps eight times, I'm no longer impressed. Taps, 392 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: I hope for fun. I love the idea of being 393 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,239 Speaker 1: entertained by math. You know what, there probably was a 394 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: little bit of that tension. Uh, we'll see why. Well, 395 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: we'll see why that probably existed. But apparently Hans was 396 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: even good at word problems. Like the bane of so 397 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: many grade school kids. He seemed to have a pensant 398 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: for recognizing language, recognizing even cleverly worded questions. And this 399 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: comes from a fabulous article on amusing and it dot 400 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: com clever Hans the horse who could do math um. So, 401 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: for example, let's say I said to Hans, I have 402 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: a number in mind. I subtract nine and have three 403 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: as a remainder. What is the number I had in mind? 404 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: And then he uses this pregnant pause followed by twelve 405 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: riveting hoof taps. Okay, and that's the answer. Boom, the 406 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: crowd goes wild and again. These are examples from this 407 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: amusing planet article. Here's another hypothetical. In the number three 408 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five million, two hundred eighty seven thousand, 409 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: one forty nine, I place a decimal point after the 410 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: eight how many are there now in the hundreds place, 411 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: to which Hans would would tap five times and just 412 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: to peep behind the curtain, you guys, I could not 413 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: even decipher what this number was without the decimals um 414 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: and the the commas. I had to resay it several times. 415 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: Had finally been very generously came to my aid. So 416 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: again I would have been blown away by this horse. Dude, 417 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: maybe you should get a horse. Maybe you should reverse that. 418 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: You're you're you're not super bullish on on pets, but Hamster, 419 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: you can teach my hamster. Have you teach my hamster 420 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: to do math? And instead of clos that could just 421 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: be like scratches, cage cage taps. Yeah, I think that's great. 422 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: Or like have the hamster you know, maybe throw food 423 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: pellets or count with food. Well, that's tough because they'll 424 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: eat them. Probably all should you shouldn't do it with 425 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: juvenile hamsters now, But sure, I definitely need a math 426 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: hamster because you know, not like my phone has a 427 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: calculator on it or anything. I want a math raven 428 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: or a math octopus. I would also accept a math tiger. 429 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: But well we'll see why it is second. So like 430 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: you said, I want to I want to harp on 431 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: this for a second. Clever Hans then was not just 432 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: uh gifted in the realm of mathematics or arithmetic. He 433 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: also wowed crowds by spelling out words and names of people. 434 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: And this must have taken forever. Talk about tent so 435 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: that each tap would be a letter of the alphabet. 436 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: So one tap, that's a two taps that's be imagine 437 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: if someone's name is like uh Zachariah, that's gonna take 438 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: forever to spell. And he also appeared to have a 439 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: great memory. You could ask him something like, clever Hans, 440 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: if the eighth day of a month comes on Tuesday, 441 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: what is the date for the following Friday, and boom, 442 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: boom boom, he would tap it out. He would tap 443 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: that out for you. The weird thing is he also 444 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 1: seemed to have all these other abilities as long as 445 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 1: van Osten was with him, spoiler. He could recognize tones. 446 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: He could recognize people in photographs, which is very unusual 447 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: for a non human animal to do. He could tell 448 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: you what time and day it was. He could tell 449 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: the difference between straw and felt hats, which was maybe 450 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: a bigger deal back then. I don't know. And of 451 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: course we said he knew different um common colors. This 452 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: led some people to say, you know, clever Hans might 453 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: be as intelligent as a thirteen or fourteen year old child. 454 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: That's certainly a shade further than Von Austin was even 455 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: willing to go, because he initially thought that animals had 456 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: the same propensity for logic and reasoning and math as 457 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: a small child. So we've graduated from small child to 458 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: like tween at least with his crowning horse achievement. Uh, 459 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: Clever Hans. Pretty impressive stuff. Oh, hold the hold the horse, 460 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: Hold your horses. That's the expression. We're having, that kind 461 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: of you know moment where we're struggling because we want 462 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: to keep going, but we also, like, you know, this 463 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: is supposed to be a thirty minute is show, and 464 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: this episode is very clearly going to go over an hour, 465 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: so hopefully you don't mind. I think we're gonna cut 466 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: it into two. Yeah. I think I'm just gonna start, 467 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna start doing for for everybody 468 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: and us especially, I'm just gonna start saying that we're 469 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: doing a two part series whenever we do an episode, 470 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: and then we could just cut that line out if 471 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: we if we get back to a one partner. But 472 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: you're right, all the story of Clever Hans needs the 473 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: full treatment. We have to go with the whole shebang. 474 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: We have to give him the whole stable here. We 475 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: didn't we we we didn't even talk about later studies. 476 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: In cognition, there's a parrot we want you to meet, yes, 477 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: and not to mention. Uh. This story has got a 478 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating twist round about the end, so stick around 479 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: for that. In the meantime, gosh huge thanks to Gabe Luzier, 480 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: researcher extraordinary hipped us to this topic and many others 481 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: that you enjoy here on this show. Um, he's a 482 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: real mention. I'd love to have him back to talk 483 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: about something other than anthropomorphized cats. But that was a 484 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: fabulous two partner as well. I think it's about time, 485 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: don't you think, Ben? Yeah, fully agreed well with thanking people, 486 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to give out one of the coveted Ridiculous 487 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: History thank you Awards uh to our good friends super 488 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram Casey. I'm going to replace our usual 489 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: verbal award with an actual award. So this may look 490 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: like an unopened jar of vegemite, but I want you 491 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: to know this is gonna be the official thank you 492 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: Award for Ridiculous History. Uh. Don't fantastic, don't get too excited. 493 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: Uh awesome, it's in the mail. Uh. And also thanks, 494 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: of course, thanks of course to our our own clever 495 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: Hans Jonathan Strickland, a k. The Quister. He's always trying 496 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: to stay a half ahead of us, but we're gonna 497 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: have him on some more episodes coming up sometime very soon. 498 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts for 499 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 500 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.