WEBVTT - Mapmaking with Don Placek 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:05.240 Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today's 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:09.160 episode is brought to you by dream Goolf. I'm sure 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.639 everybody that listens to this podcast knows about dream Golf, 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.880 but you're probably unaware maybe of the brand name. Dreamgolf 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:21.560 are the people behind Bandon Dunes, Cabot Cape, Breton, and 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.200 Sand Valley. So some of the best golf resorts in 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:29.360 the world, probably maybe the best golf resorts in America. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.280 They are putting together a giveaway. This is a good deal, 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.360 you know, it's free. Sign up at dreamgolf dot com 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.839 Backslash Giveaway to submit your entry. 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You'd get the chance to 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.479 be one of the first to preview that, or you'd 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.399 get the chance to hang out at Bandon Dune'es for 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.679 the twenty twenty two US Junior Am which is out there. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:26.319 So enter to win for. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:31.240 Free at dreamgolf dot com backslash Giveaway. Today's episode is 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.960 with Don Plaisak. Don is a partner at Renaissance Golf Design. 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.880 Don lives up in Traverse City. I interviewed him in 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.479 his office up there when I was on a recent 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:44.880 stay in northern Michigan. This is kind of a free 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.520 flowing conversation. We talk a lot about Don's art. It's 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.120 world renowned golf art. He does all the routing maps 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:58.040 for Renaissance Golf, Tom doakes projects, and it's becoming a 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.800 bigger and bigger part of his his daily life. So 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.120 we talk a little bit about drawing golf holes, which 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.359 is probably something many of you have done in your 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:13.120 childhood slash adult life, as well as designing and working 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.079 with golf courses. So, without further ado, here is Don Plasik. 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.200 I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.320 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:23.280 And when I find my. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.360 Ball in a bright egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.320 Frida egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie. 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:53.600 I'm about ready to run off the golf course. All right, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:54.600 let's just start there. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:55.120 Okay. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:56.919 Why Why is consulting tough? 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:05.560 Oh? I think I think consulting You got to talk 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:06.280 into the mic though. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.440 Okay, how's that? Is that better? That's better? 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.840 Okay, I'll try again. Why is consulting tough? That's a 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:19.320 great question. It's it's a challenge because getting golf architecture 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.120 right is not like solving a Rubic's cube. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:24.040 There. 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:29.160 There's there's really no right, clear, black and white answer. 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:34.000 It's just varying degrees of rightness, and you're dealing with 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:41.120 decision makers and you're often interrupting day to day golf, 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.840 which a lot of people don't care enough about the 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.200 architecture as long as they get all their golf in 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.400 when they want to play it. You know, geographically, if 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:51.480 you're in a place where the golf season is short, 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.600 you're you're already got one arm tied behind your back 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.320 because no one wants the golf course interrupted. They just 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.040 want to play, and you have to. They're the members, 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.680 they own the place. It's theirs. So you know, it's 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.320 a there are just so many moving parts, and the 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:14.000 idea that something could be better is an easy thing 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.760 to say. What's really tough is getting the traction you 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:24.120 need to actually physically make it better. And over my years, 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.400 in different contexts, I've found that, you know, if you're 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.680 able to socialize what you're trying to do to the 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.479 right people at the club that are that don't need 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.839 to be sold on anything, they already understand it or 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:42.640 they've they've learned it, and then they're they're internally getting 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.400 that information around and inside the club. That's when you 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.560 can get the balloon off the ground. If you're always 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.640 on the outside trying to convince people that this is 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.839 better and this is why, but inherently they're just not 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:02.240 that interested. You know that that can make things really, 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.600 really tough, And sometimes it can be at a golf 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.640 course that has oceans of potential, and that makes it 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:10.040 a little bit frustrating, and sometimes you hang on to 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.839 those challenges for a longer period of time in hopes 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.359 that you can eventually get there. I mean, the toughest 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.680 part about I don't know if it's the toughest part, 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.960 but one of the biggest challenges of getting something to 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.040 reach its full potential is the pace that you have 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.680 to learn that you're going to go at. And sometimes 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.600 it's an inchworm pace. You know, one year you make 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.119 a lot of progress and then you're not for several years. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.320 And it could be the economy, it could be a 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.360 green committee, it could be the weather, it could be 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:48.400 any number of things. So I think as a consultant, 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:54.039 I think you try and appreciate progress and then work 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.360 at the pace that the club is able to work 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.560 at and try to be satisfied that whatever that is, 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.000 it's not really in your control. All you can do 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.320 is move the needle when it's ready to be moved 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.560 and hopefully do a good job when it does. And 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.000 if you do a good job, maybe you can create 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:12.520 some more momentum. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.440 It's in a way, it sounds a little bit like sales. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.000 You know, you have to find your champion who pushes 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.320 everything through. And I think, you know, I think anybody 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.920 that wants change, whether it be at their local public course, 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.400 their local club, you know, who's tried to push for things, 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.400 you can become You can ostracize the group of people 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.680 really quick and become you know, oh taboo and don't 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.599 talk to that guy. He's you know, and I think 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.480 that's something that people can appreciate. And then, you know, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.240 you have to deal with so many different stakeholders, right 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:50.640 and everybody, whether they will admit it or not, greens chair, 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:58.440 club president, golf pro superintendent, all of them have different 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:03.800 priorities and deep down want different things and getting them 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:05.480 all to row in the same direction has got to 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:06.120 be really tough. 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.560 Yeah, I think that's a that's an excellent point and 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.440 really intuitive. Andy. I think you know that the list 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:17.960 of players that you just named golf professional superintendent, every 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:22.360 club's different. You know, the golf professional at one club 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.640 may have clout till the cows come home and whatever 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:31.320 he says has been and can quickly become gospel. Superintendents 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.520 at some clubs serve you know, that role. What they 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.240 say really goes, and you know the pro is either 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.760 less interested or just not that involved in that kind 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.320 of thing and maybe doesn't want to be. And you know, 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:52.080 it's it's like every club, the membership dynamic is different 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.760 and as a result, the decision makers who are the 0:07:55.800 --> 0:08:02.520 employees of the members, you know, their ability to influence 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:04.840 a situation, whether it's a tea or a bunker or 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.560 a tree, or this or that or the other thing 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.679 is all different. And you as a consultant, I think 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.880 if you're lucky enough to be in the business providing 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.520 that service at clubs that have merit for a long 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:28.880 enough time, you learn that the architecture is what your 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.120 focus is. But what you have to learn to be 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.920 good at, and there's different ways to do it, because 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.560 every club is different, is how do you get there? 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:45.320 You know, the architecture is foundational, but it's also finite. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:50.000 You know, the potential club has tea to green is finite. 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:51.920 And then it's up to you to try and figure 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.160 out how much can we move this golf course in 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:02.360 a direction that meets our priorities? And and how do 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.000 you present as many holes as well as you can 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.560 over time? And you have to decide how hard to 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.840 push the people that might get ostracized, Like you just mentioned, 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.000 how hard do you go there? Because if you if 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.920 you break that mechanism, you could in quite possibly be 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.440 you know, finished there. And then and then someone else 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.360 gets elected and now all of a sudden, the club's 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:33.240 going in an entirely different direction. You know, we've we've 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.400 had really a lot of our work at great clubs 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:43.360 sort of reversing things that got started for the wrong reason. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.319 And you know, in my opinion, if if you're if 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.760 those decision makers are still active at a club, whether 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.640 it's a green chair or committee or a board or whoever, 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.800 and and and they started taking the ship in a 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:05.959 modern direction and they're still around frequently, there's no chance 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.760 of doing any good work there because they don't want 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.440 to admit that they steered the ship that way, spent 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.679 this money, interrupted play, did all these things and it 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.080 maybe it wasn't a good idea. Yeah. So you know, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.720 any club that goes that way and then has the 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.280 wherewithal to go, you know, the learning curve is sharp, 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.600 and we're paying attention and we've got something really good here. 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:33.000 We need to reverse engines and slow the ship down 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.480 and chart a new course which is really an old 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.520 course and go back to that. And the clubs that 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.360 are able to do that. I give a lot of 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.280 credit to people that go, you know what, this was 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.480 not good. We thought it was, we were told it was, 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.480 and everyone else was doing it. But the truth is, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.880 if we do our homework and do some due diligence. 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.880 We've got something special here and we need to go 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.240 back to that. And that's you know, that's really hard 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:04.160 to do. People don't like to to well expose themselves. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.560 That person or an organization that is uh, you know, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.559 it's really easy to say we're doing this and puff 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:11.840 out your chests about. 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.440 What you're doing and how you're changing. 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.760 It's it's really rare and in a mark of I think, 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.760 you know, just if you're talking about people at a 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.000 personal level, the people that are able to admit, hey. 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.400 I messed up, this was not the right decision. 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.199 You know, that's those are the you know, those are 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:31.760 the rare human beings. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.280 Right, that's right, because that's not an that's not a trait. 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.319 It makes you uncomfortable, and we invariably try and avoid 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.720 that kind of stuff, especially in front of our peers, 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.440 and especially with something as special as a as the 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.640 golf holes at a at a private club. I mean, 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:53.560 that's your that's your whole entire identity, are your presentation 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.520 of your golf holes. And you don't want to be 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.080 the one that that that blew it. So you're I 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:04.040 couldn't agree with you more. It's that is, and that's 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.280 something that I've been involved with, but it's also something 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.240 that I think can be very rewarding that you can 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.520 do your job well enough to help a group make 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.880 undo a decision that they that they made and and 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:24.040 you know, for better or worse, we've gotten a bit 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.920 of a reputation. I think of being able to do that, 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.839 not just physically to get bunkers back where they were, 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:36.319 and greens and things in trees and all the physical 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.080 stuff on a golf course back to what they were, 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.160 but being able to help a club do it, because 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.760 if the club isn't committed with its membership, it really 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.160 doesn't matter. The rest of it is just noise. 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.360 You've got to be it's got to be a cool 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.679 stage of your career at renaissance in the sense that 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.800 you have been working with clubs for long periodiods of time, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:05.320 you know, ten twenty years, and you're able to go 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.840 back to them and think back to when you started. 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.079 And I always I get this way a little bit 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.680 with the Frida eg when we roll around to four 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.439 or five year anniversaries where I think back and I 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.080 you know, there's like it got to be a neat 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.640 nostalgia factor when you go visit a club that you've 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:26.520 worked at for ten plus years. 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.040 Yeah, there's no question about that, and it's that's really 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.040 what's rewarding, especially if the golf course or the golf 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:37.280 holes really deserved that kind of attention. And I think, 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:42.440 you know, it's important as we age and do this 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.640 kind of stuff for a while, it is important to 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:50.480 look back and spend an appropriate amount of time reflecting 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.840 on the successes. Because the truth is, you know, we 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.679 were talking earlier about how a golf course is never 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.960 it's alive, and it's aging andvolving and always changing, and 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.200 so the work is never really done, even though sometimes 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.280 the best work is not doing anything at all. You're 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:15.560 always paying attention to detail, and it is important to 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:20.960 look back and reflect. And that's what I think can 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:27.440 generate patience. And patience in consulting is it's a pretty 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.320 important factor. The question is how patient are you and 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.280 when does it make sense to be impatient? And which 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.520 battle should you fight in order to win the war 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.840 or which one should you back off of so that 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.440 you're still in the game. And I think that's what 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.800 makes consulting really interesting and it always sharpens your game 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.560 because you're always thinking about the ideas that the core 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.200 are pretty fundamental and not that different, but how you 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.680 present them, how you you what how you frame them, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.640 what context you put them in to help decision makers 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.920 understand better what you're you're trying to achieve and why 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.440 is That's the part that you're just constantly working on 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.760 and that comes with age and experience and hopefully you 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.720 get better at it as you go and you're able 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.640 to speak speak a little more freely because you can 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.960 lean on your experience. That helps you know. Credibility is huge. 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.600 Tom's a perfect example of that. You know, his credibility 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.600 is at the very top, and when he speaks, people 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.200 listen and he can speak more freely because he knows 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:44.400 they're going to listen, and if, you know, if they don't, 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.440 he can choose to take his wares elsewhere and go 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.800 try and help clubs that want to move in that 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:58.440 particular direction. So yeah, it's a I think consulting. As 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.040 challenging as it is and always will be, it actually 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:05.760 makes you better at what you do. Plus, every golf 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.880 hole is different. The more you can see, the better 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.080 you get in Tom's you know, that's one of the 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.920 first lessons of many that I learned from Tom is 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:18.600 anytime you're around someplace, go see something else that's being 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.320 built or that's been there for a century or whatever. 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.920 Just constantly look around and there's always something to be learned. 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.320 What's one of your favorite diversions when you're somewhere and 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.040 you went and saw something else? So do you have 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.800 one that jumps to mind really off the top of 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.760 your head where you went and down the street or 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.280 you know, out of the way to see something when 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:45.600 you're visiting somewhere else. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.040 Yeah, I think that's one of the greatest simple pleasures 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.440 of what we do is, you know, we try and 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:56.320 be really efficient with our travel. Days on the road, 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.080 days at home are precious, and days on the road 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.840 can stay backup. Anyone that's been in this business knows 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.439 all about that. So when you try and tack something on, 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:11.320 you know, that can be a double edged sword, especially 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.440 if you have a family and and you know you're 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.480 trying to have a healthy relationship with a spouse and 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:21.119 all those kinds of things. But you know what I 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:25.120 think is really interesting is the stuff. The first time 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.640 I was to Australia with Tom, I got to stay 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.879 a couple extra days and Mike Clayton took me around 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:37.840 to see everything in the sand Belt. But there's always 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.639 you know, the great courses get all the ink. But 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.600 if you go another five or seven miles out of 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.400 the sand Belt, the stuff that's there that no one 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.959 hears about because of all the marquee stuff in the 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:56.040 sand Belt would be top fifty in a lot of 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.639 other places in the world, and they just get lost 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:03.600 in the shuffle because as you know, Shinnacock and the National. 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.640 You know, Southampton and a perfect example. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.600 Yeah, and I think a lot of metropolitan areas that 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:14.440 had the luxury of we consider now a name architect 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.760 from the Golden Age that came in and did something 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.119 because it was a big city and that's where the 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.119 people were that didn't have golf, that wanted it. The 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.560 stuff around it, if it ends up being good, just 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.879 it just it just can't compete. And you know, a 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.919 lot of the maintenance and presentation of those places is 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.439 really the model we should spend our time paying attention to, 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:42.840 not the model of the marquee places. And so you know, 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:48.000 the United Kingdom is there's just countless examples of just 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.520 a little farther off the beaten track or on your 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.719 way from here to there, at all the the golf 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.240 tour stops that you got to make if you're going 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.480 over there, that's when you find there's just countless examples. 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.280 And it's not because that's a top hundred course, but 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.879 it's probably got some top hundred holes on it, and 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.520 the reasons for that are countless. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.080 I was driving back. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.359 From a trip with my wife once and we were 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.959 driving through upper part of Wisconsin, and I knew we 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.880 were driving right by Pine Hills, which is in Sheboygan 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:29.199 Cohler and We're driving and I said to my wife, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.000 I'm like, hey, I need to make a stop. It's 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.520 only going to take twenty minutes. And I could see 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:37.320 my wife rolling her eyes because. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.639 You know, it never takes twenty minutes. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.480 So you know, it was late in the afternoon, and 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.200 I stopped. I got off the road. I drove into 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.200 the parking and they have like a long drive. I 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.119 drove into the driveway, I just parked the car and 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.679 I literally I had running shoes on. I got out 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.280 and I ran around the golf course. It's like I 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.600 must have run two and a half miles, like and 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.800 I just ran just to see what was going on, 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.480 and I was like, oh my god, this what's is unbelievable. 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.200 And it was even just doing that. 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:11.600 I saw it and I was like, Okay, I have 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:12.440 to come back here. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.680 Like you know, it's like the affirmation is, like. 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.119 I think, one of the fun most fun things, you know. 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.400 I did a podcast with Tom a few months ago, 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.440 and I was telling him about my drive from from 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.840 Kansas to Nebraska. I was going from Prairie Dunes to 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.680 to wild Horse and it was you know, Tom's obviously 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.639 the world traveler, the explorer loves stopping at random places. 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.760 I've told him how I like rubber necked in this 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.919 little town in Kansas, Ellsworth, Kansas. I rubbernecked because I 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.199 saw this golf course to my right and just the 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.359 way the holes laid over the ground you were. And 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:50.159 then I you know, I was talking to a buddy 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.120 on the phone and I'm like, hey, can you look 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.080 up Ellsworth golf course? Like yeah, Like he looked at 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.640 He's like nineteen twenty It's like nineteen twenty four. 0:20:58.040 --> 0:20:59.919 So I like, I like, turn, I pulled a U, 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:01.120 I got out. I want. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.159 I just looked at it for ten minutes, but it 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:05.680 was you know, I had to be somewhere. 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.120 But that is I think one of the neatest things 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:10.480 about you know it. 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.359 You know, in a way, it's like when you find 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:16.120 the great restaurant that nobody knows about. Absolutely, you find 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.520 the cool bar that's tucked away in the in the 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:19.480 corner of a town. 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:24.000 We all have that motivation for that pleasure in that discovery. 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.920 I mean, it's there are a lot of parallels I 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.879 think of Music's probably the easiest one for me, when 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:32.920 you hear a track that you've never heard before from 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:37.520 a band you've never heard of, and you know, music's 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.560 that way when you hear it, it takes seconds and 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:43.680 you know you dig it and you can't put your 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.159 finger on it. But that is one of life's greatest 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.800 simple pleasures, is hearing a song you've never heard before 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.840 that leads you down, you know, a path to learning 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.960 more about the band and hearing another track and another track, 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.480 and and it's endless and in new Music's all around 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:01.800 us all the time, and that's one of the that's 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.919 one of the most enjoyable things. I know. Music's a 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.160 huge part of my life. So that's just an easy 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.520 analogy for me. But it's a lot like that, and 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:15.000 it's just enjoyable. It's fun to discover a band. I mean, 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.399 like we were just talking about earlier, the Revivalist playing 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:21.600 two hundred yards from our office several years ago, and 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.520 now they're you know, they've hit the scene. They've hit 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:28.520 the scene, and it's fun to be to be able 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:30.720 to say, you know, I saw them when. 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:31.320 Yeah. 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:34.320 And you know, like you said on your drive, if 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.399 you're driving past something that looks interesting and then you 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:40.919 learn it was built in the twenties, it's worth taking 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:45.439 a visual listen. Yeah, very rarely do you regret making 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.000 a stop like that, because there probably is at least 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.119 a couple of holes that are like, wow, that's nifty. 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:52.439 I'd like to have a go at that. 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.000 Yeah. And that's that's the thing I mean I think about. 0:22:56.280 --> 0:23:00.359 I always think about, like, what's the number of bad 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.720 holes that a course can have and still be great? 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:05.480 Like mediocre holes? 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:06.080 Yeah? 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.480 But then there's also like the flip side of it 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.159 is like what's the number of good holes does a 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:14.439 course need to have in order to be that? 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:16.440 You need to see it, you know, like that you 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:17.240 should see it. 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.720 And you know, there's the there's a great little nine 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:24.280 hole that I found called Eagle Springs in Wisconsin. 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:26.560 It's in the kind of it's kind of. 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.240 Like an hour or so from Milwaukee, but in the 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:34.480 sticks and the first two holes are like knock your 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:35.320 socks off. 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:37.159 Holes, right, And I say to people, like. 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:40.439