Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is brought to you by dream Goolf. I'm sure
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Speaker 1: Free at dreamgolf dot com backslash Giveaway. Today's episode is
Speaker 1: with Don Plaisak. Don is a partner at Renaissance Golf Design.
Speaker 1: Don lives up in Traverse City. I interviewed him in
Speaker 1: his office up there when I was on a recent
Speaker 1: stay in northern Michigan. This is kind of a free
Speaker 1: flowing conversation. We talk a lot about Don's art. It's
Speaker 1: world renowned golf art. He does all the routing maps
Speaker 1: for Renaissance Golf, Tom doakes projects, and it's becoming a
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger part of his his daily life. So
Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about drawing golf holes, which
Speaker 1: is probably something many of you have done in your
Speaker 1: childhood slash adult life, as well as designing and working
Speaker 1: with golf courses. So, without further ado, here is Don Plasik.
Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my.
Speaker 3: Ball in a bright egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg,
Speaker 3: Frida egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie.
Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run off the golf course. All right,
Speaker 2: let's just start there.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Why Why is consulting tough?
Speaker 3: Oh? I think I think consulting You got to talk
Speaker 3: into the mic though.
Speaker 2: Okay, how's that? Is that better? That's better?
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll try again. Why is consulting tough? That's a
Speaker 3: great question. It's it's a challenge because getting golf architecture
Speaker 3: right is not like solving a Rubic's cube.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 3: There's there's really no right, clear, black and white answer.
Speaker 3: It's just varying degrees of rightness, and you're dealing with
Speaker 3: decision makers and you're often interrupting day to day golf,
Speaker 3: which a lot of people don't care enough about the
Speaker 3: architecture as long as they get all their golf in
Speaker 3: when they want to play it. You know, geographically, if
Speaker 3: you're in a place where the golf season is short,
Speaker 3: you're you're already got one arm tied behind your back
Speaker 3: because no one wants the golf course interrupted. They just
Speaker 3: want to play, and you have to. They're the members,
Speaker 3: they own the place. It's theirs. So you know, it's
Speaker 3: a there are just so many moving parts, and the
Speaker 3: idea that something could be better is an easy thing
Speaker 3: to say. What's really tough is getting the traction you
Speaker 3: need to actually physically make it better. And over my years,
Speaker 3: in different contexts, I've found that, you know, if you're
Speaker 3: able to socialize what you're trying to do to the
Speaker 3: right people at the club that are that don't need
Speaker 3: to be sold on anything, they already understand it or
Speaker 3: they've they've learned it, and then they're they're internally getting
Speaker 3: that information around and inside the club. That's when you
Speaker 3: can get the balloon off the ground. If you're always
Speaker 3: on the outside trying to convince people that this is
Speaker 3: better and this is why, but inherently they're just not
Speaker 3: that interested. You know that that can make things really,
Speaker 3: really tough, And sometimes it can be at a golf
Speaker 3: course that has oceans of potential, and that makes it
Speaker 3: a little bit frustrating, and sometimes you hang on to
Speaker 3: those challenges for a longer period of time in hopes
Speaker 3: that you can eventually get there. I mean, the toughest
Speaker 3: part about I don't know if it's the toughest part,
Speaker 3: but one of the biggest challenges of getting something to
Speaker 3: reach its full potential is the pace that you have
Speaker 3: to learn that you're going to go at. And sometimes
Speaker 3: it's an inchworm pace. You know, one year you make
Speaker 3: a lot of progress and then you're not for several years.
Speaker 3: And it could be the economy, it could be a
Speaker 3: green committee, it could be the weather, it could be
Speaker 3: any number of things. So I think as a consultant,
Speaker 3: I think you try and appreciate progress and then work
Speaker 3: at the pace that the club is able to work
Speaker 3: at and try to be satisfied that whatever that is,
Speaker 3: it's not really in your control. All you can do
Speaker 3: is move the needle when it's ready to be moved
Speaker 3: and hopefully do a good job when it does. And
Speaker 3: if you do a good job, maybe you can create
Speaker 3: some more momentum.
Speaker 1: It's in a way, it sounds a little bit like sales.
Speaker 1: You know, you have to find your champion who pushes
Speaker 1: everything through. And I think, you know, I think anybody
Speaker 1: that wants change, whether it be at their local public course,
Speaker 1: their local club, you know, who's tried to push for things,
Speaker 1: you can become You can ostracize the group of people
Speaker 1: really quick and become you know, oh taboo and don't
Speaker 1: talk to that guy. He's you know, and I think
Speaker 1: that's something that people can appreciate. And then, you know,
Speaker 1: you have to deal with so many different stakeholders, right
Speaker 1: and everybody, whether they will admit it or not, greens chair,
Speaker 1: club president, golf pro superintendent, all of them have different
Speaker 1: priorities and deep down want different things and getting them
Speaker 1: all to row in the same direction has got to
Speaker 1: be really tough.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a that's an excellent point and
Speaker 3: really intuitive. Andy. I think you know that the list
Speaker 3: of players that you just named golf professional superintendent, every
Speaker 3: club's different. You know, the golf professional at one club
Speaker 3: may have clout till the cows come home and whatever
Speaker 3: he says has been and can quickly become gospel. Superintendents
Speaker 3: at some clubs serve you know, that role. What they
Speaker 3: say really goes, and you know the pro is either
Speaker 3: less interested or just not that involved in that kind
Speaker 3: of thing and maybe doesn't want to be. And you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's like every club, the membership dynamic is different
Speaker 3: and as a result, the decision makers who are the
Speaker 3: employees of the members, you know, their ability to influence
Speaker 3: a situation, whether it's a tea or a bunker or
Speaker 3: a tree, or this or that or the other thing
Speaker 3: is all different. And you as a consultant, I think
Speaker 3: if you're lucky enough to be in the business providing
Speaker 3: that service at clubs that have merit for a long
Speaker 3: enough time, you learn that the architecture is what your
Speaker 3: focus is. But what you have to learn to be
Speaker 3: good at, and there's different ways to do it, because
Speaker 3: every club is different, is how do you get there?
Speaker 3: You know, the architecture is foundational, but it's also finite.
Speaker 3: You know, the potential club has tea to green is finite.
Speaker 3: And then it's up to you to try and figure
Speaker 3: out how much can we move this golf course in
Speaker 3: a direction that meets our priorities? And and how do
Speaker 3: you present as many holes as well as you can
Speaker 3: over time? And you have to decide how hard to
Speaker 3: push the people that might get ostracized, Like you just mentioned,
Speaker 3: how hard do you go there? Because if you if
Speaker 3: you break that mechanism, you could in quite possibly be
Speaker 3: you know, finished there. And then and then someone else
Speaker 3: gets elected and now all of a sudden, the club's
Speaker 3: going in an entirely different direction. You know, we've we've
Speaker 3: had really a lot of our work at great clubs
Speaker 3: sort of reversing things that got started for the wrong reason.
Speaker 3: And you know, in my opinion, if if you're if
Speaker 3: those decision makers are still active at a club, whether
Speaker 3: it's a green chair or committee or a board or whoever,
Speaker 3: and and and they started taking the ship in a
Speaker 3: modern direction and they're still around frequently, there's no chance
Speaker 3: of doing any good work there because they don't want
Speaker 3: to admit that they steered the ship that way, spent
Speaker 3: this money, interrupted play, did all these things and it
Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't a good idea. Yeah. So you know,
Speaker 3: any club that goes that way and then has the
Speaker 3: wherewithal to go, you know, the learning curve is sharp,
Speaker 3: and we're paying attention and we've got something really good here.
Speaker 3: We need to reverse engines and slow the ship down
Speaker 3: and chart a new course which is really an old
Speaker 3: course and go back to that. And the clubs that
Speaker 3: are able to do that. I give a lot of
Speaker 3: credit to people that go, you know what, this was
Speaker 3: not good. We thought it was, we were told it was,
Speaker 3: and everyone else was doing it. But the truth is,
Speaker 3: if we do our homework and do some due diligence.
Speaker 3: We've got something special here and we need to go
Speaker 3: back to that. And that's you know, that's really hard
Speaker 3: to do. People don't like to to well expose themselves.
Speaker 1: That person or an organization that is uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's really easy to say we're doing this and puff
Speaker 1: out your chests about.
Speaker 2: What you're doing and how you're changing.
Speaker 1: It's it's really rare and in a mark of I think,
Speaker 1: you know, just if you're talking about people at a
Speaker 1: personal level, the people that are able to admit, hey.
Speaker 2: I messed up, this was not the right decision.
Speaker 1: You know, that's those are the you know, those are
Speaker 1: the rare human beings.
Speaker 3: Right, that's right, because that's not an that's not a trait.
Speaker 3: It makes you uncomfortable, and we invariably try and avoid
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, especially in front of our peers,
Speaker 3: and especially with something as special as a as the
Speaker 3: golf holes at a at a private club. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's your that's your whole entire identity, are your presentation
Speaker 3: of your golf holes. And you don't want to be
Speaker 3: the one that that that blew it. So you're I
Speaker 3: couldn't agree with you more. It's that is, and that's
Speaker 3: something that I've been involved with, but it's also something
Speaker 3: that I think can be very rewarding that you can
Speaker 3: do your job well enough to help a group make
Speaker 3: undo a decision that they that they made and and
Speaker 3: you know, for better or worse, we've gotten a bit
Speaker 3: of a reputation. I think of being able to do that,
Speaker 3: not just physically to get bunkers back where they were,
Speaker 3: and greens and things in trees and all the physical
Speaker 3: stuff on a golf course back to what they were,
Speaker 3: but being able to help a club do it, because
Speaker 3: if the club isn't committed with its membership, it really
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. The rest of it is just noise.
Speaker 1: You've got to be it's got to be a cool
Speaker 1: stage of your career at renaissance in the sense that
Speaker 1: you have been working with clubs for long periodiods of time,
Speaker 1: you know, ten twenty years, and you're able to go
Speaker 1: back to them and think back to when you started.
Speaker 1: And I always I get this way a little bit
Speaker 1: with the Frida eg when we roll around to four
Speaker 1: or five year anniversaries where I think back and I
Speaker 1: you know, there's like it got to be a neat
Speaker 1: nostalgia factor when you go visit a club that you've
Speaker 1: worked at for ten plus years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no question about that, and it's that's really
Speaker 3: what's rewarding, especially if the golf course or the golf
Speaker 3: holes really deserved that kind of attention. And I think,
Speaker 3: you know, it's important as we age and do this
Speaker 3: kind of stuff for a while, it is important to
Speaker 3: look back and spend an appropriate amount of time reflecting
Speaker 3: on the successes. Because the truth is, you know, we
Speaker 3: were talking earlier about how a golf course is never
Speaker 3: it's alive, and it's aging andvolving and always changing, and
Speaker 3: so the work is never really done, even though sometimes
Speaker 3: the best work is not doing anything at all. You're
Speaker 3: always paying attention to detail, and it is important to
Speaker 3: look back and reflect. And that's what I think can
Speaker 3: generate patience. And patience in consulting is it's a pretty
Speaker 3: important factor. The question is how patient are you and
Speaker 3: when does it make sense to be impatient? And which
Speaker 3: battle should you fight in order to win the war
Speaker 3: or which one should you back off of so that
Speaker 3: you're still in the game. And I think that's what
Speaker 3: makes consulting really interesting and it always sharpens your game
Speaker 3: because you're always thinking about the ideas that the core
Speaker 3: are pretty fundamental and not that different, but how you
Speaker 3: present them, how you you what how you frame them,
Speaker 3: what context you put them in to help decision makers
Speaker 3: understand better what you're you're trying to achieve and why
Speaker 3: is That's the part that you're just constantly working on
Speaker 3: and that comes with age and experience and hopefully you
Speaker 3: get better at it as you go and you're able
Speaker 3: to speak speak a little more freely because you can
Speaker 3: lean on your experience. That helps you know. Credibility is huge.
Speaker 3: Tom's a perfect example of that. You know, his credibility
Speaker 3: is at the very top, and when he speaks, people
Speaker 3: listen and he can speak more freely because he knows
Speaker 3: they're going to listen, and if, you know, if they don't,
Speaker 3: he can choose to take his wares elsewhere and go
Speaker 3: try and help clubs that want to move in that
Speaker 3: particular direction. So yeah, it's a I think consulting. As
Speaker 3: challenging as it is and always will be, it actually
Speaker 3: makes you better at what you do. Plus, every golf
Speaker 3: hole is different. The more you can see, the better
Speaker 3: you get in Tom's you know, that's one of the
Speaker 3: first lessons of many that I learned from Tom is
Speaker 3: anytime you're around someplace, go see something else that's being
Speaker 3: built or that's been there for a century or whatever.
Speaker 3: Just constantly look around and there's always something to be learned.
Speaker 1: What's one of your favorite diversions when you're somewhere and
Speaker 1: you went and saw something else? So do you have
Speaker 1: one that jumps to mind really off the top of
Speaker 1: your head where you went and down the street or
Speaker 1: you know, out of the way to see something when
Speaker 1: you're visiting somewhere else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's one of the greatest simple pleasures
Speaker 3: of what we do is, you know, we try and
Speaker 3: be really efficient with our travel. Days on the road,
Speaker 3: days at home are precious, and days on the road
Speaker 3: can stay backup. Anyone that's been in this business knows
Speaker 3: all about that. So when you try and tack something on,
Speaker 3: you know, that can be a double edged sword, especially
Speaker 3: if you have a family and and you know you're
Speaker 3: trying to have a healthy relationship with a spouse and
Speaker 3: all those kinds of things. But you know what I
Speaker 3: think is really interesting is the stuff. The first time
Speaker 3: I was to Australia with Tom, I got to stay
Speaker 3: a couple extra days and Mike Clayton took me around
Speaker 3: to see everything in the sand Belt. But there's always
Speaker 3: you know, the great courses get all the ink. But
Speaker 3: if you go another five or seven miles out of
Speaker 3: the sand Belt, the stuff that's there that no one
Speaker 3: hears about because of all the marquee stuff in the
Speaker 3: sand Belt would be top fifty in a lot of
Speaker 3: other places in the world, and they just get lost
Speaker 3: in the shuffle because as you know, Shinnacock and the National.
Speaker 2: You know, Southampton and a perfect example.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think a lot of metropolitan areas that
Speaker 3: had the luxury of we consider now a name architect
Speaker 3: from the Golden Age that came in and did something
Speaker 3: because it was a big city and that's where the
Speaker 3: people were that didn't have golf, that wanted it. The
Speaker 3: stuff around it, if it ends up being good, just
Speaker 3: it just it just can't compete. And you know, a
Speaker 3: lot of the maintenance and presentation of those places is
Speaker 3: really the model we should spend our time paying attention to,
Speaker 3: not the model of the marquee places. And so you know,
Speaker 3: the United Kingdom is there's just countless examples of just
Speaker 3: a little farther off the beaten track or on your
Speaker 3: way from here to there, at all the the golf
Speaker 3: tour stops that you got to make if you're going
Speaker 3: over there, that's when you find there's just countless examples.
Speaker 3: And it's not because that's a top hundred course, but
Speaker 3: it's probably got some top hundred holes on it, and
Speaker 3: the reasons for that are countless.
Speaker 2: I was driving back.
Speaker 1: From a trip with my wife once and we were
Speaker 1: driving through upper part of Wisconsin, and I knew we
Speaker 1: were driving right by Pine Hills, which is in Sheboygan
Speaker 1: Cohler and We're driving and I said to my wife,
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, I need to make a stop. It's
Speaker 1: only going to take twenty minutes. And I could see
Speaker 1: my wife rolling her eyes because.
Speaker 3: You know, it never takes twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: So you know, it was late in the afternoon, and
Speaker 1: I stopped. I got off the road. I drove into
Speaker 1: the parking and they have like a long drive. I
Speaker 1: drove into the driveway, I just parked the car and
Speaker 1: I literally I had running shoes on. I got out
Speaker 1: and I ran around the golf course. It's like I
Speaker 1: must have run two and a half miles, like and
Speaker 1: I just ran just to see what was going on,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, this what's is unbelievable.
Speaker 2: And it was even just doing that.
Speaker 1: I saw it and I was like, Okay, I have
Speaker 1: to come back here.
Speaker 2: Like you know, it's like the affirmation is, like.
Speaker 1: I think, one of the fun most fun things, you know.
Speaker 1: I did a podcast with Tom a few months ago,
Speaker 1: and I was telling him about my drive from from
Speaker 1: Kansas to Nebraska. I was going from Prairie Dunes to
Speaker 1: to wild Horse and it was you know, Tom's obviously
Speaker 1: the world traveler, the explorer loves stopping at random places.
Speaker 1: I've told him how I like rubber necked in this
Speaker 1: little town in Kansas, Ellsworth, Kansas. I rubbernecked because I
Speaker 1: saw this golf course to my right and just the
Speaker 1: way the holes laid over the ground you were. And
Speaker 1: then I you know, I was talking to a buddy
Speaker 1: on the phone and I'm like, hey, can you look
Speaker 1: up Ellsworth golf course? Like yeah, Like he looked at
Speaker 1: He's like nineteen twenty It's like nineteen twenty four.
Speaker 2: So I like, I like, turn, I pulled a U,
Speaker 2: I got out. I want.
Speaker 1: I just looked at it for ten minutes, but it
Speaker 1: was you know, I had to be somewhere.
Speaker 2: But that is I think one of the neatest things
Speaker 2: about you know it.
Speaker 1: You know, in a way, it's like when you find
Speaker 1: the great restaurant that nobody knows about. Absolutely, you find
Speaker 1: the cool bar that's tucked away in the in the
Speaker 1: corner of a town.
Speaker 3: We all have that motivation for that pleasure in that discovery.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's there are a lot of parallels I
Speaker 3: think of Music's probably the easiest one for me, when
Speaker 3: you hear a track that you've never heard before from
Speaker 3: a band you've never heard of, and you know, music's
Speaker 3: that way when you hear it, it takes seconds and
Speaker 3: you know you dig it and you can't put your
Speaker 3: finger on it. But that is one of life's greatest
Speaker 3: simple pleasures, is hearing a song you've never heard before
Speaker 3: that leads you down, you know, a path to learning
Speaker 3: more about the band and hearing another track and another track,
Speaker 3: and and it's endless and in new Music's all around
Speaker 3: us all the time, and that's one of the that's
Speaker 3: one of the most enjoyable things. I know. Music's a
Speaker 3: huge part of my life. So that's just an easy
Speaker 3: analogy for me. But it's a lot like that, and
Speaker 3: it's just enjoyable. It's fun to discover a band. I mean,
Speaker 3: like we were just talking about earlier, the Revivalist playing
Speaker 3: two hundred yards from our office several years ago, and
Speaker 3: now they're you know, they've hit the scene. They've hit
Speaker 3: the scene, and it's fun to be to be able
Speaker 3: to say, you know, I saw them when.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And you know, like you said on your drive, if
Speaker 3: you're driving past something that looks interesting and then you
Speaker 3: learn it was built in the twenties, it's worth taking
Speaker 3: a visual listen. Yeah, very rarely do you regret making
Speaker 3: a stop like that, because there probably is at least
Speaker 3: a couple of holes that are like, wow, that's nifty.
Speaker 3: I'd like to have a go at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's that's the thing I mean I think about.
Speaker 1: I always think about, like, what's the number of bad
Speaker 1: holes that a course can have and still be great?
Speaker 2: Like mediocre holes?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: But then there's also like the flip side of it
Speaker 1: is like what's the number of good holes does a
Speaker 1: course need to have in order to be that?
Speaker 2: You need to see it, you know, like that you
Speaker 2: should see it.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's the there's a great little nine
Speaker 1: hole that I found called Eagle Springs in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: It's in the kind of it's kind of.
Speaker 1: Like an hour or so from Milwaukee, but in the
Speaker 1: sticks and the first two holes are like knock your
Speaker 1: socks off.
Speaker 2: Holes, right, And I say to people, like.
Speaker 1: It's worth just going and playing the first two holes.
Speaker 1: You can decide to play the rest of the seven.
Speaker 1: But if you if you pay the I think it's
Speaker 1: twenty bucks. Those two holes are you know, out of
Speaker 1: this world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was worth the seven fifty per hole that
Speaker 3: you paid to play.
Speaker 2: Those exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: It's this is interesting to me because again it's it's music.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm way older than you. I bought cassette
Speaker 3: tapes and LPs for a time, and then CDs, and
Speaker 3: now music has evolved into this whole completely different way
Speaker 3: that we find new music listen to new music. But
Speaker 3: my metric for buying a CD to put into my
Speaker 3: collection was I needed to hear three tracks from the
Speaker 3: album that I liked enough to buy the CD. And
Speaker 3: that was kind of my recipe. If it only had one,
Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't Two was kind of a push, but
Speaker 3: I needed to have three out of the ten or
Speaker 3: twelve and then I would add it to my collection.
Speaker 3: And I don't think that's any different than what you
Speaker 3: just subscribed. If those first three holes are really good,
Speaker 3: it's okay that the others aren't that great because you
Speaker 3: can go listen to the first three tracks again.
Speaker 1: Well that's like the interesting thing too with music about
Speaker 1: when you see bands, Like it's so fun to watch
Speaker 1: a band rise up, Like, you know, there's this band,
Speaker 1: Lord Heuron that I saw in Austin that was tiny ooh,
Speaker 1: you know, and then they became bigger. But then I
Speaker 1: went to Cago show and Leon Bridges opened for them,
Speaker 1: and now Leon Bridges is you know, trending towards.
Speaker 2: Superstardom, right, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because like I found this little band.
Speaker 1: But when you go to a small when you go
Speaker 1: to the band early on, you go to a concert,
Speaker 1: there's really you're going for three or four songs, yeah,
Speaker 1: And then you realize the really great bands when you
Speaker 1: go see you know, Red like for me, Red Hot
Speaker 1: Chili Peppers. Sure they can fill a show, and you
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, they didn't even play these songs that
Speaker 1: I love because they have the whole cash exactly. And
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really similar to golf courses where, like
Speaker 1: the really great courses, every single hole you're like, you
Speaker 1: just want more and more, yes, But but then with
Speaker 1: you know, the up and comers, it's like, oh, a
Speaker 1: couple holes here, a couple holes there, yea, and those
Speaker 1: are totally they're worth seeing.
Speaker 3: For sure, you know, yeah, for sure. And and I
Speaker 3: you know, at the end of the day, I think
Speaker 3: anytime you see a golf hole you haven't seen, or
Speaker 3: even if they are in your estimation all eighteen or
Speaker 3: just mediocre, there's still something if you're plagued with the
Speaker 3: disease of being interested in golf architecture, that you'll find
Speaker 3: that you take away. There's always a takeaway, even if
Speaker 3: it's like, well, that situation is so bad, you know,
Speaker 3: that shouldn't shouldn't have happened at all, and you're still
Speaker 3: taking away that you're still learning something from it. But
Speaker 3: maybe there's a way that three holes flow together, even
Speaker 3: though they're not great holes, the walk is just lovely.
Speaker 3: That's still something, you know, that's still a takeaway. And
Speaker 3: I think that's what we have all gotten over time.
Speaker 3: From Tom. And I'm not nearly as good at or
Speaker 3: willing or dedicated as Eric Iverson and Brian Slonik and
Speaker 3: Brian Schneider, who probably has seen more golf holes than
Speaker 3: any other human being. What he knows and that's his
Speaker 3: that is his mantra. I mean, that's his that's that's
Speaker 3: his mission statement is to see as much as possible.
Speaker 3: And and I'm just fortunate the guys I work with,
Speaker 3: I get to benefit from the effort that they make
Speaker 3: because they bring that with them when they're working on
Speaker 3: something else. And I'm just lucky to be, you know,
Speaker 3: associated with them. If I'm being very honest.
Speaker 1: You know, you used to work closely at Renaissance. I'm
Speaker 1: sure he's a friend with Bruce Happner. You know, I
Speaker 1: have to ask, oh, yeah, who's got the who's the deeper,
Speaker 1: who's the bigger music fan between you two?
Speaker 3: Oh? Man, Uh, I think I think Bruce is he
Speaker 3: just knows more about music. He's invested more and understanding
Speaker 3: little lydiosyncrasies about bands and how they relate to each other.
Speaker 3: Plus he's you know, I think it's fair to say
Speaker 3: he's he's a musician, you know, he he's actually taken
Speaker 3: his love of music to the point where he's taught
Speaker 3: himself to play guitar. Well, you know, pretty well, Brian
Speaker 3: Eric Iverson and I and Brian Schneider love music till
Speaker 3: the cows come home. You know, we can have endlessly
Speaker 3: long conversations about music, and that's one thing that really
Speaker 3: binds us together. But Brian Sonik's the exception of that
Speaker 3: core because he is a musician. He can play several
Speaker 3: instruments well, and he does it so matter of factly,
Speaker 3: and so I can't think of the correct word for
Speaker 3: how someone that talented is just so matter of fact
Speaker 3: about it. But that just makes it even cooler. You know,
Speaker 3: the guys I work with are really really hyper talented,
Speaker 3: but not just in golf, and I think they're able
Speaker 3: to draw on their additional talents and bring that into
Speaker 3: the golf stuff, and it finds its way into our work,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's shaping a green or you know.
Speaker 3: Most of the way I contribute is drawing. But I
Speaker 3: when I'm listening to music and it's the right track
Speaker 3: pops on when I'm drawing, the drawing is invariably better.
Speaker 3: You can't put your finger on why it just the
Speaker 3: lines flow. It feels good. I like to say the
Speaker 3: drawing is talking to you or me. When I'm doing
Speaker 3: a plan, there's a point hopefully in anyone that I
Speaker 3: do that it starts to talk to me, and it
Speaker 3: just means it's pleasing to my eye. So I'm happy
Speaker 3: with it.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how I think that people get such tunnel vision.
Speaker 1: I have to be so dedicated to my you know,
Speaker 1: I have to work, work, work, and we have this.
Speaker 2: Workaholic doesn't stop.
Speaker 1: But like one of the things that happens is a
Speaker 1: lot of times when you take a step away or
Speaker 1: you take a diversion, what it does is it leads
Speaker 1: you to better work shortly thereafter. I've been like you know,
Speaker 1: for me, I've got a one year old. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been a crazy year. You've had COVID, you know,
Speaker 1: you own a small business. It's been stressful, and like
Speaker 1: you know, I took a vacation last week. I did
Speaker 1: almost no work, and it's amazing how much more refreshed
Speaker 1: and excited I was to like do work. And I
Speaker 1: obviously have a job that I love, and you know,
Speaker 1: I very rarely am not excited, but like just the
Speaker 1: the enthusiasm I felt through me this week because I
Speaker 1: got a chance and and things I thought about all
Speaker 1: you know, when I was going on hikes or doing
Speaker 1: different things. It just it's amazing how other interests can
Speaker 1: lead to better work in your field.
Speaker 3: No question, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean,
Speaker 3: you've really hit the nail on the head and and
Speaker 3: whatever that is for whatever you do. I mean, we're
Speaker 3: both lucky. We really enjoy what we do. And I'm
Speaker 3: even more fortunate I enjoy the people that I am
Speaker 3: doing my work with. If you can say that with
Speaker 3: a straight face and really mean it, you're light years
Speaker 3: ahead of so many other folks, you know. They and
Speaker 3: I like to think that's what hopefully makes everything that
Speaker 3: we do that much better, is because we enjoy those
Speaker 3: those very fortunate benefits. And you know, we have all
Speaker 3: our own cliches about if the project is fun, if
Speaker 3: the fun factor is high, the work's better. I think,
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's the same concept of what you
Speaker 3: just described, and not doing some work for a while
Speaker 3: makes you, if nothing else, it just makes you appreciate
Speaker 3: what you have a little bit more, and that makes
Speaker 3: things a little bit more enjoyable. I mean, we're all
Speaker 3: just trying to to sprinkle as much of that stuff
Speaker 3: in our day to day existence as we can. And
Speaker 3: and I'm just lucky I've been able to do the
Speaker 3: lion's share of that for the lion's share of the time.
Speaker 2: So you you touched on your your drawings.
Speaker 1: I think everybody that's listening to this podcast has probably
Speaker 1: seen one of them. If if they haven't, we'll probably
Speaker 1: post some accompanied visuals with with this podcast so you'll
Speaker 1: be able to check it out.
Speaker 2: But I'd love to hear how you got started with
Speaker 2: the drawing?
Speaker 1: Was you know, were you really great artists as a kid, Like,
Speaker 1: how did this come about?
Speaker 2: How did you you know? You you do all.
Speaker 1: The drawings for all of Tom's you know, master plans,
Speaker 1: all of the Renaissance, you know, golf Desiyes, master plans,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's something that it seems
Speaker 1: like is very is a growing side of your business
Speaker 1: in terms of the drawing.
Speaker 2: So how did it get started for me?
Speaker 3: My parents? I don't think either one, if they were here,
Speaker 3: would say they passed on necessarily any art genes. But
Speaker 3: they were creative people. They had music on again, music,
Speaker 3: they had music one all the time, and they were creative.
Speaker 3: They just thought about things differently. And they, you know,
Speaker 3: myself and my two younger sisters, they we were always
Speaker 3: encouraged to try stuff. Swimming, lessons, you know, you name it, pottery,
Speaker 3: just whatever, make a mess, see if you like it.
Speaker 3: And I one of the first things they put in
Speaker 3: front of me was just a big blank you're too
Speaker 3: young to know what a big chief pad was, aligned
Speaker 3: pad with lines on one side and a grid on
Speaker 3: the there and some blank pages in the middle, and
Speaker 3: a fresh box of colored pencils or crayons, the cool
Speaker 3: sixty four box with the sharpener in the back. I
Speaker 3: mean that with a big chief pad was it was
Speaker 3: just magic to me, and you could draw whatever you wanted,
Speaker 3: whatever inspired you. So I just liked drawing my whole life.
Speaker 3: It just was. It seemed to come easy enough, and
Speaker 3: I've always always enjoyed it. So that you know, that's
Speaker 3: way back to the start, but fast forward to the
Speaker 3: to the golf world. Clients, especially if they're writing checks,
Speaker 3: like to see something that makes them feel comfortable that
Speaker 3: they have an idea of what they're getting for what
Speaker 3: they're investing in, and drawings are the very first thing
Speaker 3: they lay their eyes on. And it's been a fascinating
Speaker 3: journey andy for me working for Tom, because you know,
Speaker 3: that's a that's a double edged sword. Tom doesn't want
Speaker 3: to be constrained by some artist's vision at the beginning,
Speaker 3: you know, to have to stick to that is just
Speaker 3: bad form. You don't end up with the best product
Speaker 3: at the end.
Speaker 1: But I mean, what's the pet die The famous Pete
Speaker 1: story is he needed to submit plan, submit plans, and
Speaker 1: he submitted plans for another golf course that already had
Speaker 1: been built to get the you know all those things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and and the truth is that
Speaker 3: is the truth. Yeah, you know, the the the drawings
Speaker 3: you see from the twenties and thirties that I like
Speaker 3: to refer to rarely ended up. You know, that would
Speaker 3: look anything like an as built. They didn't even bother
Speaker 3: with that stuff. Then there was no need. The golf
Speaker 3: course is done, Let's go play golf. But you know
Speaker 3: that's a that's a that can be a sticky wicket
Speaker 3: putting something in front of a client at the beginning
Speaker 3: and then for some reason, you you you diverge from that,
Speaker 3: and they think, well, what happened did you get it wrong?
Speaker 3: Is something out of place? Did you not study the
Speaker 3: ground well enough that you were really committed to that?
Speaker 3: And you know that's something that you overcome over time.
Speaker 1: And I think that's something like you know, in the
Speaker 1: most for the most part, you're getting hired by business
Speaker 1: people or lawyers or doctors.
Speaker 2: And and for the most part, indeed.
Speaker 1: Their their job is they this is what we're going
Speaker 1: to do, and we execute it versus like anybody that's
Speaker 1: in any sort of a creative role, Like I have
Speaker 1: like five things that I wanted to talk to you about,
Speaker 1: and we haven't touched on any of them right till now,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Because we went on a diversion. We get back.
Speaker 1: When I set out to write something, it might start
Speaker 1: as one idea and end up something completely different by
Speaker 1: the time you get writing and your thoughts developed. And
Speaker 1: the same thing for your work, like you get working
Speaker 1: and you might see something or you might move dir
Speaker 1: one way and then all of a sudden something else
Speaker 1: becomes way more apparent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, that's a that's spot on. A drawing
Speaker 3: really can't evolve. I mean it, you know it's going
Speaker 3: to have if it's a routing plan it's going to
Speaker 3: have eighteen holes depicted in some form or another. But
Speaker 3: the way you depict them and how you orient them
Speaker 3: on the page. And for me, things that I get
Speaker 3: excited about are, you know, what's the north are going
Speaker 3: to look like here? And and how do I incorporate
Speaker 3: I like to sort of mush stuff together rather than
Speaker 3: have defined edges on things. I like to break the
Speaker 3: borders of the drawing. You know, I like to have
Speaker 3: stuff meld from one thing into another. And then you know,
Speaker 3: we've had the good fortune of working on some logos
Speaker 3: on some projects, and you know, that process is very
Speaker 3: similar to It's not a huge departure from building golf holes.
Speaker 3: You know, you think you start with an idea and
Speaker 3: sometimes you're excited about it, and sometimes you're not excited
Speaker 3: about it, but you get excited because you're looking at
Speaker 3: it all of a sudden in a different way. And
Speaker 3: you know, I like to look at the drawings that
Speaker 3: way too, And you know, so much of that is
Speaker 3: from how I grew up and being encouraged to be
Speaker 3: creative from my parents and friends and people around me.
Speaker 3: And you know, that's like finding a new golf hole.
Speaker 3: It's a fun process. Because you discover things. I had
Speaker 3: a professor in college and my color theory class at
Speaker 3: Colorado at CU that intentionally put a nice drawing on
Speaker 3: a drafting table on one of his lectures and dumped
Speaker 3: coffee on it. And we were all aghast, why did
Speaker 3: you do that? That was a cool drawing. And then
Speaker 3: he turned it into something different. He incorporated the stain
Speaker 3: after it dried into clouds that looked like a perspective
Speaker 3: on what one of the building elevations was going to be.
Speaker 3: And I think that happens with golf construction too. You
Speaker 3: know there might be this native done that you really
Speaker 3: wanted to preserve and a contractor tracked over it or
Speaker 3: took a tree down that wasn't supposed to God forbid
Speaker 3: or something like that. And you know, that's just life.
Speaker 3: That's and and if you can adapt what you're building
Speaker 3: on a golf course that way, you can do it
Speaker 3: with drawings, and you can you can do it with everything.
Speaker 1: And do you do you look at other types of
Speaker 1: maps like absolutely? And if so, like what are some
Speaker 1: type of specific maps that you think back to a lot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it's not really the one. And I'm
Speaker 3: an instagram I follow classic maps, old charts. You know,
Speaker 3: there's a there's a there's a there's an instagram that's
Speaker 3: I think it's just called I E Fing love maps
Speaker 3: and and uh and and anytime you look at some
Speaker 3: way that someone cartographically, you know, took cartography and stretched
Speaker 3: it to show data in a different way, in a
Speaker 3: visual way. I mean invariably we're all simple humans are
Speaker 3: or we're looking for all of the data fast as
Speaker 3: we can get it. And I like to think, you know,
Speaker 3: graphics have a way of conveying something perhaps quicker than
Speaker 3: a lot of other things. And I just try and
Speaker 3: do that with golf maps too.
Speaker 1: Now with that, you know, you're trying to convey architecture
Speaker 1: in a you know too?
Speaker 2: Is it one dimensional maps? One dimensional?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well to the third try to get it's like
Speaker 3: you say, trying to get that the third dimension to
Speaker 3: marry to the first two. There's lots of ways to
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 2: There's trick like it's not you're not drawing.
Speaker 1: I think you know one of the you're probably it's
Speaker 1: probably not identical the scale always of your You need
Speaker 1: to what are some hacks in order to that you
Speaker 1: use to convey because I think one of the things
Speaker 1: that your maps do so so well is convey the
Speaker 1: architecture and give you a sense of what you might
Speaker 1: see without being able to see any of the setting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very high compliment, and I take it
Speaker 3: as such. I appreciate that. You know, I've learned over
Speaker 3: time that there are just things that your eye that
Speaker 3: appeals to your eye, and I'm really just trying to
Speaker 3: appeal to my own eye. And one of the ways
Speaker 3: is just you know, line weight patterns, hatching, stippling that
Speaker 3: create texture, and really what you're trying to do is
Speaker 3: demonstrate elevation change and where that elevation change hopefully is
Speaker 3: strategic in the golf hole. But also you know, could
Speaker 3: create a feeling of something that's really high or really
Speaker 3: low that you're playing off of or around or up
Speaker 3: against or whatever. And you know you can you over
Speaker 3: time you kind of learn how to do that with
Speaker 3: with lines and line weight widths and you know, dark lines,
Speaker 3: light lines, long thin lines together, spread apart. You know,
Speaker 3: the options are endless, which is another reason that is
Speaker 3: so fun, because I'm constantly discovering different ways to try
Speaker 3: and convey this is a subtle contour, or this is
Speaker 3: a monster contour and it's going to potentially affect your
Speaker 3: golf ball this way or that way. And the other
Speaker 3: thing is just you know, it's what draws your eye
Speaker 3: to a great photograph. If there's contrast, if there's engaging contrast,
Speaker 3: your eye just picks up on that. The brain looks
Speaker 3: for the black against the white. And if you have that,
Speaker 3: that's a powerful statement. And if you can marry that
Speaker 3: to the more subtle stuff, then you can start to
Speaker 3: create a visual vernacular if you will, of this is
Speaker 3: a steep slope, or that fairway's cant it hard right
Speaker 3: to left? And you know, then hopefully you can start
Speaker 3: to see if that fairways can't it hard right to left.
Speaker 3: That's clearly why you know, the front right of the
Speaker 3: green is protected or the front left of the green
Speaker 3: is protected as the case maybe because most people are
Speaker 3: going to end up on the right side. If you're
Speaker 3: good enough to keep it on the left, now you
Speaker 3: have an advantage on your ensuing shot. So it's those
Speaker 3: are the kinds of things. And I experiment a lot.
Speaker 3: You know, I've tried things that I thought really worked,
Speaker 3: and then I've had things that didn't. And but again
Speaker 3: it's like seeing new golf. Every time you do something,
Speaker 3: hopefully you get a little better at it.
Speaker 2: Was there.
Speaker 1: Maybe an experiment that you a tweak that you did
Speaker 1: that really, you know, you feel elevated your maps, Like,
Speaker 1: was there a specific moment where you tried something a
Speaker 1: little different that that really made them take off?
Speaker 3: That's a really good question, I think, Andy. My best
Speaker 3: answer for that would be, you know, if you if
Speaker 3: you go back through all the old architecture books that
Speaker 3: are available and look at the old the old guys
Speaker 3: and how they illustrated and graphically showed things, there's you know,
Speaker 3: there's ways to depict greens, there's ways to depict bunkers,
Speaker 3: grassing lines and teas. But I think the thing that's
Speaker 3: maybe evolved the most for me, and it's still evolving,
Speaker 3: is you know, how do you The key in that
Speaker 3: is how do you demonstrate which way the hole plays
Speaker 3: and drawing the center lines, you know, the directional arrows.
Speaker 3: Here's the t shot, here's if it's a par five,
Speaker 3: here's the interim shot before your final approach. In theory,
Speaker 3: not that there are very many par fives anymore as
Speaker 3: far as everybody hits the ball, but there were lots
Speaker 3: of different ways. Some guys just put an arrow from
Speaker 3: the tee pointing in that general direction and didn't even
Speaker 3: bother trying to show you where you're supposed to hit it.
Speaker 3: And so ways to have that information is on there,
Speaker 3: because I think the first thing someone does when they
Speaker 3: see a routing plan is they want to follow the path.
Speaker 3: They want to see where the holes go, where they
Speaker 3: how do they traverse over the property, and where is
Speaker 3: the first part three? And you know whatever whatever golf
Speaker 3: language is in our mind, that when we look at that,
Speaker 3: like you say, especially if you haven't seen it before,
Speaker 3: that's important because that's what people are absolutely going to do.
Speaker 3: They're going to find the first tea in the eighteenth
Speaker 3: green and they're going to try and follow it all
Speaker 3: the way around. And it's it's kind of like finding
Speaker 3: a path in the woods. You know, we like those things.
Speaker 3: It's just visually fun. So I've experimented a lot with
Speaker 3: that on how to get that information on the plan
Speaker 3: without it being the overpowering bit of data. And you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes that's more important.
Speaker 1: If the probably a lot what you talked about the
Speaker 1: weight of your of your draw right, if if you're
Speaker 1: too heavy on that then that overpowers everything around it,
Speaker 1: so it almost needs to be lighter in a way exactly.
Speaker 3: And and you know each plan that that the style
Speaker 3: you're using, you get to decide. That's what's so fun
Speaker 3: about drawing. It's all up to you. You know, how
Speaker 3: heavy is that going to be? What color is it
Speaker 3: going to be? I mean, color is just hugely powerful stuff.
Speaker 3: And black and white with one color can be incredibly
Speaker 3: powerful and can convey an idea very very quickly. So
Speaker 3: you know, that's what's fun about it is interpreting what's
Speaker 3: what am I trying to convey and who's my audience
Speaker 3: and how can I best convey what's going on here?
Speaker 3: And you know, I guess the other thing too, is
Speaker 3: just putting a little flagstick that's waving on the green
Speaker 3: and you know everybody immediately can okay, that's that's where
Speaker 3: this hole is going. And if you have a flagstick
Speaker 3: that that that is easy to pick up. And people
Speaker 3: like architecture, they I think, I like to think their
Speaker 3: eye goes backwards from there and they kind of try
Speaker 3: and figure out the strategy of the whole and that
Speaker 3: makes it. You know, that's fun too. The really simple
Speaker 3: things The truth is all the old guys did that too,
Speaker 3: if you look at it, and you know, I'm just
Speaker 3: I'm just borrowing what I think are good ideas. I
Speaker 3: haven't really invented anything, Andy, I'm just maybe reinterpreting it
Speaker 3: a little bit and trying to add a little bit
Speaker 3: of style to it, you know. I think the other
Speaker 3: thing I like to do and try hard to do
Speaker 3: is make the drawings to age them, which is no
Speaker 3: different than the golf holes that were trying to build
Speaker 3: in the field.
Speaker 1: Rough like if you're doing a restoration, making the bunk
Speaker 1: and not having everything look new.
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, Yeah, the older the better, all the way
Speaker 3: down to you know, the cyanotype blue background, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's the Sir John Herschel in the eighteen forties was
Speaker 3: you know, that's when photography was just sort of being
Speaker 3: figured out. Before that, it was Da Vinci's camera obscure
Speaker 3: from the fifteen hundred, so that was revolutionary stuff at
Speaker 3: the time. But that goes back to the com because
Speaker 3: that really deep, meaningful ocean blue background with essentially white
Speaker 3: line work. I mean, the contrast is tremendous and it
Speaker 3: and it ages it. I mean that that background is
Speaker 3: light sensitive, so over time those old cyanotype drawings invariably
Speaker 3: faded and stuff, and now they're sort of being discovered
Speaker 3: and paid attention to again. And that's that's a way
Speaker 3: I'd like to try and add age to the to
Speaker 3: the drawings that that I've worked on. And we did
Speaker 3: that intentionally with a of course, a course guide at
Speaker 3: Lanark Country Club where in my backpack. Yeah, that was
Speaker 3: the intent from the beginning. There was someone in the
Speaker 3: nineteen thirties that did really rough versions of the holes
Speaker 3: there at the time, and the architecture is different and
Speaker 3: far more sporty now, but we took that flavor and
Speaker 3: tried to just make a direct trend to the yardage
Speaker 3: book to make the place feel aged and old. There's
Speaker 3: just something about some you know, it doesn't matter if
Speaker 3: it's a pair of Levi's, if it's old and worn,
Speaker 3: it's just a little more comfortable and it's a little
Speaker 3: easier on the eyes, and plus it's just fun.
Speaker 1: It's like wearing you're it's like when you wear your
Speaker 1: jeans fresh out of the wash versus the.
Speaker 2: Second day out of the wash.
Speaker 1: Very well said with the you know, with what you're
Speaker 1: describing in many ways it. I think it's what when
Speaker 1: you think about golf courses that really, you know.
Speaker 2: Get you excited.
Speaker 1: They have a lot of different things going on that
Speaker 1: draw your eye in different places and not necessarily distract you,
Speaker 1: but make you observe the entire.
Speaker 2: The entire picture that you're.
Speaker 1: Looking at, Yes, versus you know, when you think about
Speaker 1: like the public golf course that I grew up playing,
Speaker 1: it had rough, fair away green and trees on both sides,
Speaker 1: a very whole indeed, and you know that it almost
Speaker 1: tunnels you. Versus when you think of a place like say,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a great painting of Pacific tunes right
Speaker 1: here that has so much texture and so as you said,
Speaker 1: contrasts and different things that draw your eye that and
Speaker 1: maybe that's you know, in a you know, beyond just
Speaker 1: a strategy and everything. Certain golf courses make you so
Speaker 1: aware of everything going on around you, and that might
Speaker 1: be one of the things that's you know, but that's
Speaker 1: also what you're trying to convey with the drawings, is
Speaker 1: everything that's going on in the hole.
Speaker 3: Yeah, to the extent you can, and you're right, you know,
Speaker 3: working in only two dimensions that can be tough, but
Speaker 3: you're spot on. Back to consulting for a flash. You
Speaker 3: know a lot of the places we've worked at for
Speaker 3: a while where tea to green stuff's in pretty good order.
Speaker 3: The challenge now is how do you enhance the golf experience?
Speaker 3: How do you look, you know, past a green or
Speaker 3: what do you see as you're going down the fairway
Speaker 3: that you can reveal or offer to not just the
Speaker 3: people that play there every day, but they're guests too
Speaker 3: that help them remember that golf experience a little bit
Speaker 3: better because you know, humans, if you play well, you
Speaker 3: tend to like a golf course a little better than
Speaker 3: if you don't if you're only going to play at once.
Speaker 3: But if what you're looking at while you're playing, other
Speaker 3: than t screens, fairways and bunkers is memorable, it just
Speaker 3: enhances the golf experience. And and you know, with a drawing,
Speaker 3: you don't you don't have that opportunity to look off site,
Speaker 3: but you do have. You know, if you've got a
Speaker 3: feature on a property that is significant that you're really
Speaker 3: trying to take advantage of, like the Strabaklan no at
Speaker 3: at the Renaissance Club and in uh in Scotland, you
Speaker 3: know you can you can draw it in a way
Speaker 3: that tells the observer or someone who's looking at your plan,
Speaker 3: that must be something pretty significant because it looks different
Speaker 3: than everything else. It's been called out graphically and it
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes it's it's just a cove or a
Speaker 3: cliff side, or maybe it's a really steep cliff side.
Speaker 3: If you can convey that to just a hole, not
Speaker 3: just playing along a natural water based hazard like you know,
Speaker 3: the ocean or the beach or the you know, a
Speaker 3: lake or a pond, you can graphically make it significant
Speaker 3: so that it helps someone understand that that might be
Speaker 3: pretty neat golf in your ball next to that thing.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't even have to be water. It can
Speaker 3: be vegetation or elevation change or just you know, and
Speaker 3: in many cases it's just the rare eyes sore. Maybe
Speaker 3: it's an old mine or a barrow pit or something
Speaker 3: like that that's overgrown. Great hazard for golf, and then
Speaker 3: you try and convey that as best you can graphically,
Speaker 3: and that's what's fun to do. You learn little ways
Speaker 3: to make something look steep or rugged or rocky or
Speaker 3: just steep and slippery. You know what, whatever you can
Speaker 3: do and you know, that's always that's that's a fun.
Speaker 2: Aspect of it too.
Speaker 1: Just drawing other stuff other than golf help you when
Speaker 1: you do you do that? Ever, do you ever draw
Speaker 1: you know, something else and then does that help you?
Speaker 2: Obviously you do the logo stuff.
Speaker 1: Is there stuff that happened when you do another activity
Speaker 1: that helps you know your your your drawing of golf GOLs.
Speaker 3: That's a that's a really interesting question too, because I
Speaker 3: think the answer, the short answer is yes, I've I've
Speaker 3: done some some different things, not golf based, for my family,
Speaker 3: you know, different points in their life, gifts to commemorate
Speaker 3: different things, you know, I mean, and as digital as
Speaker 3: everything is now, you can get the basic foundational stuff
Speaker 3: for anywhere on the globe, a city street, you know,
Speaker 3: building a landscape, view or whatever. It's all at your fingertips,
Speaker 3: So you can get that framework easy and then sprinkle
Speaker 3: in your family's experience in they're hopefully in a creative way.
Speaker 3: So and I do that too. I just I love
Speaker 3: doing that, I think, and it's fun for me because
Speaker 3: it's again it's not that different of what I'm doing
Speaker 3: with golf. When I was when I was in college,
Speaker 3: I had a reputation of that's the golf guy in
Speaker 3: my environmental design landscape architecture emphasis area. Because I was
Speaker 3: constantly trying to integrate golf into whatever project I was assigned,
Speaker 3: people got up. My professors would just get tired of it,
Speaker 3: and they tolerated me that way. But I think it's
Speaker 3: funny because they tolerated it enough that I could do it.
Speaker 3: And that's really all golf just is just exudes itself
Speaker 3: and pretty much my entire life, my family, my friends,
Speaker 3: my work obviously, and there's always the golf thing. It
Speaker 3: just seems to bubble up and find its way to
Speaker 3: the surface. And whatever I do, and back to your
Speaker 3: question about doing other things, it does seem to find
Speaker 3: its way in there. I have a preference for just
Speaker 3: landscapes just because I you know, study it and think
Speaker 3: about it and a lot, and hopefully that finds its
Speaker 3: way into a routing or a consulting situation where the
Speaker 3: good stuff that can really assist the experience of golf,
Speaker 3: that has nothing to do with golf at all finds
Speaker 3: its way in there. I just I like to to
Speaker 3: try and integrate things together and mix things together that
Speaker 3: maybe you wouldn't it wouldn't seem intuitive to do so,
Speaker 3: and it's fun. I'm lucky. I'm lucky I have work
Speaker 3: that lets me do those kinds of things. I think
Speaker 3: most people are creative in some capacity in their own way,
Speaker 3: and a lot of people might not be as lucky
Speaker 3: as I have been to be able to just tap
Speaker 3: into that they might be creative in a way they're
Speaker 3: not even aware of. And I thank my parents for that,
Speaker 3: because they just they threw everything, including the kitchen sink,
Speaker 3: at us to try when we were kids, because they
Speaker 3: had the realization that, you know, you don't know what
Speaker 3: you're good at until you discover it.
Speaker 2: I could relate.
Speaker 1: I was, you know, it was in the business world,
Speaker 1: and when I started this, I was most worried about
Speaker 1: the creative stuff I find myself. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: when I have to do run the business side of it,
Speaker 1: it really hampers my creative you know, and it frustrates me. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, so it's really you know, you don't know
Speaker 1: what you'll be good at until you try it, and
Speaker 1: then you know. That's I think that's really good advice
Speaker 1: for anybody, especially people that are are starting careers. Like
Speaker 1: you know, you think you are supposed to do this
Speaker 1: or you want to do this. And really, as I
Speaker 1: look back on my life, like what careers are is
Speaker 1: like you know your different jobs are you just you
Speaker 1: just become an expert at these really random things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting point, and we talk about
Speaker 3: it a lot, you know. I think that's a thin
Speaker 3: silver lining of the global health issues that we're all
Speaker 3: facing now is that golf has benefited from that. You know,
Speaker 3: people are playing it that haven't ever, people are going
Speaker 3: back to it that got away from it for a while,
Speaker 3: like we were talking about earlier, and and I hope
Speaker 3: that you know that resurgence can can travel to places.
Speaker 3: You know, that's that's an important thing that we all
Speaker 3: should be trying to do, is introduce golf to as
Speaker 3: many people, even in its in its rudimentary you know,
Speaker 3: form sand greens with one club, you know, in a
Speaker 3: desert somewhere for example. That's an extreme example. But I
Speaker 3: like to think everybody has it, and there are probably
Speaker 3: a lot of people globally that have the same potential
Speaker 3: to play the game as well as anybody ever has
Speaker 3: that don't even know what golf is. They don't even
Speaker 3: know the concept let alone have a club in their
Speaker 3: hands and being able to stand on maintain turf and
Speaker 3: hit a white ball. And I'm always fascinated by that. Andy.
Speaker 3: I just wonder how many really great players are that
Speaker 3: will live their entire life out there there that will
Speaker 3: never even pick up a golf club that could have
Speaker 3: been just amazing.
Speaker 1: I think about that with singing. How many unbelievable singers
Speaker 1: are there that a like, because it takes so much
Speaker 1: self confidence to put yourself out there in that aspect.
Speaker 1: Is like, how many great you know, like people with
Speaker 1: voices like Adele you know that are living that don't
Speaker 1: they have never tried it because they're afraid to put
Speaker 1: or they've never sung in front of people because they're
Speaker 1: self conscious. Like I think about that all the time,
Speaker 1: and it's it's, you know, it's like the same thing.
Speaker 2: How many great golf.
Speaker 1: Sites are there for golf courses that nobody's just come
Speaker 1: across that has the eye? You know, Like when I'm
Speaker 1: up and we're in northern Michigan right now, it's like
Speaker 1: I drive around and I'm just like.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, it's a hot spot up here for that.
Speaker 3: There's no question.
Speaker 2: Turn on your head and you see.
Speaker 1: You see golf holes everywhere you look, and they aren't
Speaker 1: you know, they're just farmland. But you just see, oh
Speaker 1: there's a great golf ball right there. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd like to build a golf course right here.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was talking to a lady at a golf course
Speaker 1: the other day and she was telling me about, you know,
Speaker 1: how she thought this one place could be really great.
Speaker 1: And then she was telling me she had like, you know,
Speaker 1: they lived one hundred and fifty acres, and I go,
Speaker 1: it is a cool land and she goes, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really we got some ravines and stuff.
Speaker 2: I go, we'll just build something out there. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, you know, the more of that
Speaker 3: that happens, the more people are likely to give it,
Speaker 3: give it a whirl. The Glen Way nine hole project
Speaker 3: in Madison that the Kaiser family is involved with. Part
Speaker 3: of the recipe is to have a big public putting
Speaker 3: green yards away from a pretty busy city intersection in
Speaker 3: town and leave, you know, as I understand it, some
Speaker 3: golf balls and some putters out there, and it's just
Speaker 3: available to anybody to just walk by, pick up a club,
Speaker 3: knock the ball, and hopefully, you know, eventually get it
Speaker 3: in the hole. I mean, it's like, that's that's as
Speaker 3: important as building a great golf course in a lot
Speaker 3: of ways. It's the first time someone puts the ball
Speaker 3: from distance and the ball goes in the hole. It's
Speaker 3: like when I was a kid, I lived in Nebraska
Speaker 3: and we fished a lot, and the first time, you know,
Speaker 3: you get live bait on a hook and a bobber
Speaker 3: in the water, and the first time you see the bobber,
Speaker 3: you know, moves, yeah. And then when it goes under
Speaker 3: it and it pulls on your your fishing pole, having
Speaker 3: a fish on That's one of life's greatest simple pleasures.
Speaker 1: And you know what hooks you it is literally and figuratively.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, just being a lot less
Speaker 3: formal about golf, just introduce it anyway you can get
Speaker 3: it out there. I mean. One of one of the
Speaker 3: lovely things about my wife Elizabeth, when I first met her,
Speaker 3: when she understood that I was in the business of golf,
Speaker 3: not an avid golfer, but she was confident enough to
Speaker 3: tell me how she's played before. But she keeps score
Speaker 3: with emojis, so if she plays a hole well, she
Speaker 3: gets a smile face. If she doesn't, she gets a
Speaker 3: you know, a frown, and then sometimes you have the
Speaker 3: confused look on the scorecard. And we've graduated to a
Speaker 3: hybrid now where if she really does make a good score,
Speaker 3: we'll put the number down, but if you have a
Speaker 3: bad hole, just put a frown in the square and
Speaker 3: move on. You know. But I think we've figured out
Speaker 3: a way to enjoy golf together and thinking about it
Speaker 3: in a little bit different way and trying to make
Speaker 3: it accessible and keeping it fun is hyper critical, and
Speaker 3: we have an opportunity now with the focused attention on
Speaker 3: golf that has emerged in the last year to two years, hopefully,
Speaker 3: you know, the game will just become more intriguing and
Speaker 3: compelling to more people, even if they don't play it
Speaker 3: in a necessarily a conventional card and pencil way. That's
Speaker 3: I think that's really really important.
Speaker 1: Well, you're talking about Glen Glen Way and the putt
Speaker 1: and green. Something that went through my head was one
Speaker 1: of the you know, it's like you get these pictures
Speaker 1: that you always remember, these pictures of life, and I
Speaker 1: was leaving winter Park Golf Club, the Keith rev and
Speaker 1: Riley Great Little Community ninth to get there one day.
Speaker 1: It's super cool and it's divided by all these roads.
Speaker 1: It's in the middle of a neighborhood. And I was
Speaker 1: driving away, sun was going down beautiful winter night there
Speaker 1: and I, you know, there's a stop sign and I'm looking.
Speaker 2: I look right, and.
Speaker 1: I look left, and they've got a great community putting
Speaker 1: green right by the ninth tee, which is you know,
Speaker 1: and I look left and I see a father and
Speaker 1: like a four year old walking like down the sun
Speaker 1: like you got that late night sky, and it was
Speaker 1: just in the four year olds Karen a little putter
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know, it's like an emotional
Speaker 1: like it like that is just such a cool thing
Speaker 1: because like you know, it's just a h you know,
Speaker 1: that's it reminds me of my childhood going. We had
Speaker 1: a big putting green at the public course that I
Speaker 1: grew up playing at, and I'll spend all day on it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but putting never gets boring. Shipping and putting,
Speaker 3: yeah absolutely, And you know, if you're good at that,
Speaker 3: you can play against anybody, you know. I mean that's
Speaker 3: one of golf's discoveries.
Speaker 1: I think driving range almost hampers the I think youth
Speaker 1: development in a way, because if you become really good
Speaker 1: at at putting and chipping by the you know, like
Speaker 1: when you're young, you want to develop those skills because
Speaker 1: your body's going to change so much and your swing's
Speaker 1: going to change.
Speaker 2: It's your body changes.
Speaker 1: The obsession with the perfect swing because that video is
Speaker 1: created is like really detrimental. I think, like to like,
Speaker 1: you want your kid at at age ten just to
Speaker 1: know how to get the ball.
Speaker 3: In the hole absolutely and enjoy it enough, and enjoy
Speaker 3: it enough that they can't ever fix that ailment. You know,
Speaker 3: they can only try and play more and just be
Speaker 3: around it more. And I think, you know, my my
Speaker 3: my dad taught me my golf swing, and he was
Speaker 3: a golf professional in the Denver area at a Donald
Speaker 3: Ross course called Lakewood Country Club, And you know, we'd
Speaker 3: go to the range and he would always look up
Speaker 3: and down the range and and say, I can't imagine
Speaker 3: the purpose of everybody hitting a whole bucket of balls
Speaker 3: with their driver and never taking any of the other
Speaker 3: clubs out of their bag. You know, I mean, you
Speaker 3: go to the range and it's all about how far
Speaker 3: you can hit it, and the focus is never really
Speaker 3: on the short game, and you would always say, Son,
Speaker 3: the secrets in the short game. You know, as long
Speaker 3: as you have that, you can play against anybody. And
Speaker 3: he taught me a lot of things. I just I
Speaker 3: remember those that I was thinking about when you were
Speaker 3: talking about crossing the crosswalk with a dad and a
Speaker 3: four year old, and when you were talking about that,
Speaker 3: it made me think, you know, I hope we You know,
Speaker 3: short courses seem to be really gaining popularity. They seemed
Speaker 3: initially years ago they just seemed kind of hokey, like
Speaker 3: what you do with leftover ground. But for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: more people are playing, and the places you go, the
Speaker 3: accomplished golf resorts have those short courses. In Man I
Speaker 3: was at in June this year, I was at sand
Speaker 3: Valley with Brian Schneider walking around on the lido and
Speaker 3: the short course they have there, the sandbox. It's like
Speaker 3: a firecracker in an anthill. It's jammed and people are
Speaker 3: laughing and having fun.
Speaker 1: And I think that short course. I haven't seen all
Speaker 1: the short courses, but that short course to me, blows
Speaker 1: away every other short course. They that Bill and Bill
Speaker 1: and Jim Craig, I know Jim. It was kind of
Speaker 1: Jim's baby. They did such an unbelievable job.
Speaker 2: That it's fantastic, so fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I have a you know, we'll
Speaker 1: see when Lido is done. But I say to people,
Speaker 1: that's the best golf course on the property.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and the other golf course are
Speaker 3: really good.
Speaker 2: Yes they are, Yes, they are.
Speaker 3: And I think it's because it's the you know, for
Speaker 3: for most people, it's the easiest way to have fun.
Speaker 3: You drop your expectations, you drop your the tenseness of it.
Speaker 3: You know, this isn't where you give yourself a pass.
Speaker 3: This isn't real golf, or this isn't regular golf. So
Speaker 3: it's okay. I don't have to get all worked up
Speaker 3: about it. And you can play it with a cocktail
Speaker 3: and play it in your flip flops and and in
Speaker 3: the evening. And you know, most people that have the
Speaker 3: ability to spend time at a place like Sand Valley,
Speaker 3: you know, golf fatigue can set in. You know, you're
Speaker 3: there for a while and you want to play eighteen
Speaker 3: more holes, but you're just beat. You know, you're just tired,
Speaker 3: you're eater, sore, and your hands hurt. But you can
Speaker 3: always go around the short course. I mean the one
Speaker 3: at at bally Neil. The Mulligan Course at bally Neil
Speaker 3: is just an absolute riot. And I haven't seen the
Speaker 3: one at Forest Duns yet that Keith and Riley built,
Speaker 3: but it just looks really really fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And if if if you go on a golf trip
Speaker 3: and you don't play well, but you have a lot
Speaker 3: of fun on this short course, it's it's still a success. Well.
Speaker 1: I think there's also something that underlying with the short
Speaker 1: course where the concept of fair oh yeah gets kind
Speaker 1: of dropped a little bit, and it's probably something that
Speaker 1: should you know, work its way over to big courses
Speaker 1: where this idea of oh this screen wasn't fair right,
Speaker 1: or this this screen was too extreme. And then but
Speaker 1: then the same people that say that go to the
Speaker 1: short course and say, oh this everything's fun. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it to me, in my head, it just doesn't compute because,
Speaker 1: like I know, in talking to Bill about the Sandbox,
Speaker 1: he talked about how he could do things he couldn't
Speaker 1: do on the big course there, and in my head,
Speaker 1: I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think when we look back at like the Golden Age
Speaker 1: stuff and the iconic golf courses.
Speaker 2: A lot of those greens are the greens that you find.
Speaker 1: On short courses where it's okay to be to build
Speaker 1: stuff that's a little bit more extreme. Ye, that's a
Speaker 1: little bit on the edge, and you know, I think
Speaker 1: that's a big lesson. I think another thing that's magical
Speaker 1: about short courses is that it brings the skills gap
Speaker 1: close together, because that's what makes par three short, Part
Speaker 1: three so beloved. It's where, you know, the twenty handicap
Speaker 1: can beat the plus two. I played golf, you know,
Speaker 1: and this was a time where I was playing a
Speaker 1: lot of amateur golf tournaments and I played on a
Speaker 1: buddy's bachelor party. There's this cool place Mcmenimon's in Portland.
Speaker 1: The next time you're in Portland, they have a course
Speaker 1: called the Pub Course.
Speaker 2: And it's the clubhouse like it already.
Speaker 1: There's a bar and they have great tap beer taps,
Speaker 1: great beers, and you go there and they've got I
Speaker 1: think it's a ten hole course and a twenty two
Speaker 1: hole course.
Speaker 2: And we played and my buddy at.
Speaker 1: The time, I must have been a plus two, and
Speaker 1: my buddy, who's like a twelve, beat me. When you
Speaker 1: shorten the course and you removed when you take driver
Speaker 1: out of.
Speaker 2: The equation, absolutely all of a sudden's it, you.
Speaker 1: Know, like everybody can beat anybody on any hole because
Speaker 1: all it takes is.
Speaker 2: One great shot, one swing. Yeah yeah, And then.
Speaker 1: Over the course of ten holes you can get beat
Speaker 1: by somebody that it would have no chance, right, remote
Speaker 1: chance of hanging with you for nine holes on a
Speaker 1: regular golf course.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think it the magic's in the shortness.
Speaker 3: You take the driver out of the less accomplished player's
Speaker 3: hands and don't require that of them, and all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, there's just more opportunity for an interesting match.
Speaker 1: And it makes sense why you know it's a great
Speaker 1: recipe for beginners is because it gives them the opportunity
Speaker 1: to have success on a on a single hole, even
Speaker 1: if it's just a single hole. If they can walk
Speaker 1: away making a three, they feel like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: what got me back, is.
Speaker 3: No question, right, And and and golf's hard enough as
Speaker 3: it is exactly, you know, and and and when you're
Speaker 3: you go back to the tree lined, narrow course you
Speaker 3: were talking about earlier. Even a player that's not accomplished
Speaker 3: has the talent to chip a ball out from behind
Speaker 3: a tree back into the fairway. You know, I mean
Speaker 3: that that doesn't that doesn't take a lot of skill,
Speaker 3: and it certainly ain't much fun.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Think discovering that that one swing short course where you
Speaker 3: can do something memorable against somebody who's a way better
Speaker 3: player than you are, has a very redeeming, very strong
Speaker 3: gravitational pull to it because of that, because we all
Speaker 3: want to feel like, you know, we can compete. I mean,
Speaker 3: the idea of the handicap system was to take the
Speaker 3: less accomplished player and help them be a better competitor
Speaker 3: against someone else. But but actually beating somebody on a
Speaker 3: whole is way more fun than just taking off three
Speaker 3: shots because your handicap said you could against that.
Speaker 2: It's it's like a fake win versus a real win. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to say that it's a fake win,
Speaker 1: but it is a fake win.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and it's all how you look at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's not necessarily a fake win.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a it's a different win
Speaker 1: than every other win in society would say, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a but hey, you know, we uh, running up
Speaker 1: on time. You know, it's my wedding anniversary. I'm going
Speaker 1: to get in trouble anniversary. You know your wife is
Speaker 1: fantastic to share you. You know, you know I she's
Speaker 1: She's gotten a nice, nice a lot of me time.
Speaker 2: I think she probably is happy to be honest.
Speaker 3: Everything everything in moderation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I love I'm a I'm a complete
Speaker 1: hopeless artist. I uh, you know, when it comes to
Speaker 1: drawing a golf hole, I cannot draw a golf hole
Speaker 1: worth a lick.
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of people I'd love to be
Speaker 2: able to do.
Speaker 1: I I think about them all the time I have
Speaker 1: I can visualize them in my head. I cannot draw them.
Speaker 1: What give give us hopelesses? Some some tips to.
Speaker 2: Be less hopeless?
Speaker 1: Like I would love to enter the Lido contest, but
Speaker 1: I can't draw off hole that would be representative of
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 2: I could write about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's that's another good question. I think that
Speaker 3: the thing I would encourage you to do is do
Speaker 3: it anyway, Just keep going, just keep going, and that
Speaker 3: you know there there's no right or wrong way.
Speaker 1: Get a big pad and just as soon as I
Speaker 1: know it's off.
Speaker 2: Start over.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to the extent you're able, don't put any
Speaker 3: pressure on yourself to make something look like something you've
Speaker 3: already seen that someone told you was a good way
Speaker 3: to do this. Just do it your way. I mean,
Speaker 3: the truth is, that's how how I got where I am.
Speaker 3: I just had the blank pad and the you know,
Speaker 3: the sixty four Crayola box, sixty four crayon Crayola box.
Speaker 3: And as soon as it becomes fun for you, just
Speaker 3: do that and experiment. Try all kinds of different things,
Speaker 3: different colors, different line weights, different ways to depict whatever,
Speaker 3: and mix and match and don't have any preconceived notions.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think drawings one of those things
Speaker 3: where you know, the muscle you're using your brain and
Speaker 3: obviously your eyes. You know, you're trying to convey what's
Speaker 3: in your head through your eyes onto the paper. But
Speaker 3: the thing that can be most inhibitive of about that
Speaker 3: process has nothing to do with those two things. It's
Speaker 3: all the muscles that are communicating between you know, your head,
Speaker 3: through your arms into your hands, and if those are
Speaker 3: inhibited or not comfortable or relaxed or free, it's really
Speaker 3: hard to get what you're seeing in your mind's eye
Speaker 3: on the pay point.
Speaker 2: Relax. Yeah, the same thing with the golf swing.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, like I think that's like you swing
Speaker 1: your best when you're when you're relaxed.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's infinitely impossible to get relaxed and comfortable.
Speaker 3: It just and and and give it a whirl and tried.
Speaker 3: I would also encourage trying different mediums. You know, don't
Speaker 3: don't stick with a sharpened pencil and a pad of paper.
Speaker 3: Get a piece of charcoal, you know, a really rough
Speaker 3: than chalk, uh, things like that.
Speaker 1: If it's less sharp, it doesn't show the imperfections as much.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, and and and it can also convey an
Speaker 3: idea much more boldly with contrast than trying to draw
Speaker 3: really sharp small lines. Just mix it up, you know,
Speaker 3: paint too. I've I've never really pursued painting because I
Speaker 3: just seem to have liked drawing so much. But some
Speaker 3: people that are amazing painters aren't that good at drawing
Speaker 3: and don't really even enjoy it that much. I mean
Speaker 3: they're that they're similar, but they're also that much different.
Speaker 3: Just try it, Just try different things. It's uh, go
Speaker 3: play a golf course you've never played before and enjoy it,
Speaker 3: and you know, get some sidewalk, chalk out with with
Speaker 3: your toddler and just do some stuff in the driveway
Speaker 3: and see what what talks to you, because it's different
Speaker 3: for everybody.
Speaker 1: That's my only my only hope, I think actually is
Speaker 1: probably you know, learning to draw with why well I
Speaker 1: watch my daughter.
Speaker 2: To learn to draw. Well, you can do it together exactly.
Speaker 2: Who knows?
Speaker 3: You may have an artist in making? Yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: all about discovery.
Speaker 1: All right, Don, People can find you on Instagram. Uh,
Speaker 1: Don Plasik, what's it is? A deep placic plac a golf,
Speaker 1: placic golf. You know, if I was more prepared, I would.
Speaker 2: Have that right.
Speaker 3: I'm still learning myself.
Speaker 1: But uh and and uh and then they can they
Speaker 1: can find your work at you know, pretty much any
Speaker 1: renaissance golf property.
Speaker 2: And I gotta I got a whole list of question
Speaker 2: I got four topics that we never touched on today.
Speaker 2: So maybe we'll do a part two at some point.
Speaker 3: Andy, that would be lovely, be happy to great to
Speaker 3: talk with you. Thanks for stopping by.