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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is brought to you by dream Goolf. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: everybody that listens to this podcast knows about dream Golf,

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Speaker 1: to win a four day, three nights day at your

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Speaker 1: have to submit this at dreamgolf dot com Backslash Giveaway

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Speaker 1: by September thirtieth for your chance to win a four day,

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Speaker 1: Pretty good deal for free. You get that chance and

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Speaker 1: obviously great golf courses of both. The Leado is opening

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Speaker 1: get the chance to hang out at Bandon Dune'es for

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty two US Junior Am which is out there.

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Speaker 2: So enter to win for.

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Speaker 1: Free at dreamgolf dot com backslash Giveaway. Today's episode is

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Speaker 1: with Don Plaisak. Don is a partner at Renaissance Golf Design.

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Speaker 1: Don lives up in Traverse City. I interviewed him in

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Speaker 1: his office up there when I was on a recent

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Speaker 1: stay in northern Michigan. This is kind of a free

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Speaker 1: flowing conversation. We talk a lot about Don's art. It's

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Speaker 1: world renowned golf art. He does all the routing maps

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Speaker 1: for Renaissance Golf, Tom doakes projects, and it's becoming a

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Speaker 1: bigger and bigger part of his his daily life. So

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Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about drawing golf holes, which

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Speaker 1: is probably something many of you have done in your

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Speaker 1: childhood slash adult life, as well as designing and working

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Speaker 1: with golf courses. So, without further ado, here is Don Plasik.

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Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset when

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Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my.

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Speaker 3: Ball in a bright egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg,

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Speaker 3: Frida egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie.

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Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run off the golf course. All right,

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Speaker 2: let's just start there.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Why Why is consulting tough?

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Speaker 3: Oh? I think I think consulting You got to talk

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Speaker 3: into the mic though.

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Speaker 2: Okay, how's that? Is that better? That's better?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'll try again. Why is consulting tough? That's a

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Speaker 3: great question. It's it's a challenge because getting golf architecture

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Speaker 3: right is not like solving a Rubic's cube.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 3: There's there's really no right, clear, black and white answer.

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Speaker 3: It's just varying degrees of rightness, and you're dealing with

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Speaker 3: decision makers and you're often interrupting day to day golf,

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Speaker 3: which a lot of people don't care enough about the

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Speaker 3: architecture as long as they get all their golf in

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Speaker 3: when they want to play it. You know, geographically, if

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Speaker 3: you're in a place where the golf season is short,

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Speaker 3: you're you're already got one arm tied behind your back

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Speaker 3: because no one wants the golf course interrupted. They just

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Speaker 3: want to play, and you have to. They're the members,

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Speaker 3: they own the place. It's theirs. So you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a there are just so many moving parts, and the

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Speaker 3: idea that something could be better is an easy thing

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Speaker 3: to say. What's really tough is getting the traction you

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Speaker 3: need to actually physically make it better. And over my years,

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Speaker 3: in different contexts, I've found that, you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: able to socialize what you're trying to do to the

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Speaker 3: right people at the club that are that don't need

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Speaker 3: to be sold on anything, they already understand it or

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Speaker 3: they've they've learned it, and then they're they're internally getting

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Speaker 3: that information around and inside the club. That's when you

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Speaker 3: can get the balloon off the ground. If you're always

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Speaker 3: on the outside trying to convince people that this is

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Speaker 3: better and this is why, but inherently they're just not

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Speaker 3: that interested. You know that that can make things really,

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Speaker 3: really tough, And sometimes it can be at a golf

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Speaker 3: course that has oceans of potential, and that makes it

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Speaker 3: a little bit frustrating, and sometimes you hang on to

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Speaker 3: those challenges for a longer period of time in hopes

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Speaker 3: that you can eventually get there. I mean, the toughest

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Speaker 3: part about I don't know if it's the toughest part,

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Speaker 3: but one of the biggest challenges of getting something to

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Speaker 3: reach its full potential is the pace that you have

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Speaker 3: to learn that you're going to go at. And sometimes

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Speaker 3: it's an inchworm pace. You know, one year you make

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Speaker 3: a lot of progress and then you're not for several years.

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Speaker 3: And it could be the economy, it could be a

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Speaker 3: green committee, it could be the weather, it could be

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Speaker 3: any number of things. So I think as a consultant,

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Speaker 3: I think you try and appreciate progress and then work

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Speaker 3: at the pace that the club is able to work

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Speaker 3: at and try to be satisfied that whatever that is,

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Speaker 3: it's not really in your control. All you can do

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Speaker 3: is move the needle when it's ready to be moved

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Speaker 3: and hopefully do a good job when it does. And

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Speaker 3: if you do a good job, maybe you can create

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Speaker 3: some more momentum.

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Speaker 1: It's in a way, it sounds a little bit like sales.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have to find your champion who pushes

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Speaker 1: everything through. And I think, you know, I think anybody

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Speaker 1: that wants change, whether it be at their local public course,

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Speaker 1: their local club, you know, who's tried to push for things,

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Speaker 1: you can become You can ostracize the group of people

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Speaker 1: really quick and become you know, oh taboo and don't

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Speaker 1: talk to that guy. He's you know, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's something that people can appreciate. And then, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have to deal with so many different stakeholders, right

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Speaker 1: and everybody, whether they will admit it or not, greens chair,

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Speaker 1: club president, golf pro superintendent, all of them have different

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Speaker 1: priorities and deep down want different things and getting them

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Speaker 1: all to row in the same direction has got to

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Speaker 1: be really tough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a that's an excellent point and

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Speaker 3: really intuitive. Andy. I think you know that the list

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Speaker 3: of players that you just named golf professional superintendent, every

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Speaker 3: club's different. You know, the golf professional at one club

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Speaker 3: may have clout till the cows come home and whatever

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Speaker 3: he says has been and can quickly become gospel. Superintendents

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Speaker 3: at some clubs serve you know, that role. What they

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Speaker 3: say really goes, and you know the pro is either

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Speaker 3: less interested or just not that involved in that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing and maybe doesn't want to be. And you know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's like every club, the membership dynamic is different

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Speaker 3: and as a result, the decision makers who are the

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Speaker 3: employees of the members, you know, their ability to influence

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Speaker 3: a situation, whether it's a tea or a bunker or

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Speaker 3: a tree, or this or that or the other thing

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Speaker 3: is all different. And you as a consultant, I think

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Speaker 3: if you're lucky enough to be in the business providing

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Speaker 3: that service at clubs that have merit for a long

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Speaker 3: enough time, you learn that the architecture is what your

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Speaker 3: focus is. But what you have to learn to be

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Speaker 3: good at, and there's different ways to do it, because

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Speaker 3: every club is different, is how do you get there?

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Speaker 3: You know, the architecture is foundational, but it's also finite.

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Speaker 3: You know, the potential club has tea to green is finite.

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Speaker 3: And then it's up to you to try and figure

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Speaker 3: out how much can we move this golf course in

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Speaker 3: a direction that meets our priorities? And and how do

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Speaker 3: you present as many holes as well as you can

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Speaker 3: over time? And you have to decide how hard to

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Speaker 3: push the people that might get ostracized, Like you just mentioned,

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Speaker 3: how hard do you go there? Because if you if

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Speaker 3: you break that mechanism, you could in quite possibly be

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Speaker 3: you know, finished there. And then and then someone else

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Speaker 3: gets elected and now all of a sudden, the club's

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Speaker 3: going in an entirely different direction. You know, we've we've

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Speaker 3: had really a lot of our work at great clubs

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Speaker 3: sort of reversing things that got started for the wrong reason.

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Speaker 3: And you know, in my opinion, if if you're if

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Speaker 3: those decision makers are still active at a club, whether

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Speaker 3: it's a green chair or committee or a board or whoever,

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Speaker 3: and and and they started taking the ship in a

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Speaker 3: modern direction and they're still around frequently, there's no chance

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Speaker 3: of doing any good work there because they don't want

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Speaker 3: to admit that they steered the ship that way, spent

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Speaker 3: this money, interrupted play, did all these things and it

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Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't a good idea. Yeah. So you know,

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Speaker 3: any club that goes that way and then has the

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Speaker 3: wherewithal to go, you know, the learning curve is sharp,

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Speaker 3: and we're paying attention and we've got something really good here.

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Speaker 3: We need to reverse engines and slow the ship down

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Speaker 3: and chart a new course which is really an old

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Speaker 3: course and go back to that. And the clubs that

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Speaker 3: are able to do that. I give a lot of

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Speaker 3: credit to people that go, you know what, this was

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Speaker 3: not good. We thought it was, we were told it was,

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Speaker 3: and everyone else was doing it. But the truth is,

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Speaker 3: if we do our homework and do some due diligence.

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Speaker 3: We've got something special here and we need to go

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Speaker 3: back to that. And that's you know, that's really hard

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Speaker 3: to do. People don't like to to well expose themselves.

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Speaker 1: That person or an organization that is uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's really easy to say we're doing this and puff

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Speaker 1: out your chests about.

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Speaker 2: What you're doing and how you're changing.

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Speaker 1: It's it's really rare and in a mark of I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, just if you're talking about people at a

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Speaker 1: personal level, the people that are able to admit, hey.

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Speaker 2: I messed up, this was not the right decision.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's those are the you know, those are

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Speaker 1: the rare human beings.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's right, because that's not an that's not a trait.

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Speaker 3: It makes you uncomfortable, and we invariably try and avoid

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, especially in front of our peers,

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Speaker 3: and especially with something as special as a as the

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Speaker 3: golf holes at a at a private club. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's your that's your whole entire identity, are your presentation

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Speaker 3: of your golf holes. And you don't want to be

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Speaker 3: the one that that that blew it. So you're I

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Speaker 3: couldn't agree with you more. It's that is, and that's

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Speaker 3: something that I've been involved with, but it's also something

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Speaker 3: that I think can be very rewarding that you can

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Speaker 3: do your job well enough to help a group make

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Speaker 3: undo a decision that they that they made and and

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Speaker 3: you know, for better or worse, we've gotten a bit

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Speaker 3: of a reputation. I think of being able to do that,

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Speaker 3: not just physically to get bunkers back where they were,

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Speaker 3: and greens and things in trees and all the physical

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Speaker 3: stuff on a golf course back to what they were,

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Speaker 3: but being able to help a club do it, because

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Speaker 3: if the club isn't committed with its membership, it really

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter. The rest of it is just noise.

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Speaker 1: You've got to be it's got to be a cool

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Speaker 1: stage of your career at renaissance in the sense that

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Speaker 1: you have been working with clubs for long periodiods of time,

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Speaker 1: you know, ten twenty years, and you're able to go

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Speaker 1: back to them and think back to when you started.

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Speaker 1: And I always I get this way a little bit

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Speaker 1: with the Frida eg when we roll around to four

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Speaker 1: or five year anniversaries where I think back and I

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Speaker 1: you know, there's like it got to be a neat

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Speaker 1: nostalgia factor when you go visit a club that you've

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Speaker 1: worked at for ten plus years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no question about that, and it's that's really

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Speaker 3: what's rewarding, especially if the golf course or the golf

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Speaker 3: holes really deserved that kind of attention. And I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's important as we age and do this

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff for a while, it is important to

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Speaker 3: look back and spend an appropriate amount of time reflecting

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Speaker 3: on the successes. Because the truth is, you know, we

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Speaker 3: were talking earlier about how a golf course is never

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Speaker 3: it's alive, and it's aging andvolving and always changing, and

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Speaker 3: so the work is never really done, even though sometimes

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Speaker 3: the best work is not doing anything at all. You're

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Speaker 3: always paying attention to detail, and it is important to

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Speaker 3: look back and reflect. And that's what I think can

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Speaker 3: generate patience. And patience in consulting is it's a pretty

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Speaker 3: important factor. The question is how patient are you and

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Speaker 3: when does it make sense to be impatient? And which

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Speaker 3: battle should you fight in order to win the war

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Speaker 3: or which one should you back off of so that

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Speaker 3: you're still in the game. And I think that's what

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Speaker 3: makes consulting really interesting and it always sharpens your game

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Speaker 3: because you're always thinking about the ideas that the core

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Speaker 3: are pretty fundamental and not that different, but how you

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Speaker 3: present them, how you you what how you frame them,

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Speaker 3: what context you put them in to help decision makers

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Speaker 3: understand better what you're you're trying to achieve and why

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Speaker 3: is That's the part that you're just constantly working on

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Speaker 3: and that comes with age and experience and hopefully you

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Speaker 3: get better at it as you go and you're able

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Speaker 3: to speak speak a little more freely because you can

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Speaker 3: lean on your experience. That helps you know. Credibility is huge.

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Speaker 3: Tom's a perfect example of that. You know, his credibility

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Speaker 3: is at the very top, and when he speaks, people

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Speaker 3: listen and he can speak more freely because he knows

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Speaker 3: they're going to listen, and if, you know, if they don't,

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Speaker 3: he can choose to take his wares elsewhere and go

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Speaker 3: try and help clubs that want to move in that

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Speaker 3: particular direction. So yeah, it's a I think consulting. As

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Speaker 3: challenging as it is and always will be, it actually

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Speaker 3: makes you better at what you do. Plus, every golf

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Speaker 3: hole is different. The more you can see, the better

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Speaker 3: you get in Tom's you know, that's one of the

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Speaker 3: first lessons of many that I learned from Tom is

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Speaker 3: anytime you're around someplace, go see something else that's being

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Speaker 3: built or that's been there for a century or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Just constantly look around and there's always something to be learned.

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Speaker 1: What's one of your favorite diversions when you're somewhere and

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Speaker 1: you went and saw something else? So do you have

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Speaker 1: one that jumps to mind really off the top of

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Speaker 1: your head where you went and down the street or

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Speaker 1: you know, out of the way to see something when

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Speaker 1: you're visiting somewhere else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's one of the greatest simple pleasures

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Speaker 3: of what we do is, you know, we try and

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Speaker 3: be really efficient with our travel. Days on the road,

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Speaker 3: days at home are precious, and days on the road

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Speaker 3: can stay backup. Anyone that's been in this business knows

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Speaker 3: all about that. So when you try and tack something on,

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Speaker 3: you know, that can be a double edged sword, especially

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Speaker 3: if you have a family and and you know you're

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Speaker 3: trying to have a healthy relationship with a spouse and

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Speaker 3: all those kinds of things. But you know what I

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Speaker 3: think is really interesting is the stuff. The first time

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Speaker 3: I was to Australia with Tom, I got to stay

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Speaker 3: a couple extra days and Mike Clayton took me around

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Speaker 3: to see everything in the sand Belt. But there's always

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Speaker 3: you know, the great courses get all the ink. But

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Speaker 3: if you go another five or seven miles out of

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Speaker 3: the sand Belt, the stuff that's there that no one

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Speaker 3: hears about because of all the marquee stuff in the

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Speaker 3: sand Belt would be top fifty in a lot of

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Speaker 3: other places in the world, and they just get lost

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Speaker 3: in the shuffle because as you know, Shinnacock and the National.

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Speaker 2: You know, Southampton and a perfect example.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think a lot of metropolitan areas that

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Speaker 3: had the luxury of we consider now a name architect

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Speaker 3: from the Golden Age that came in and did something

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Speaker 3: because it was a big city and that's where the

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Speaker 3: people were that didn't have golf, that wanted it. The

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Speaker 3: stuff around it, if it ends up being good, just

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Speaker 3: it just it just can't compete. And you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of the maintenance and presentation of those places is

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Speaker 3: really the model we should spend our time paying attention to,

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Speaker 3: not the model of the marquee places. And so you know,

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Speaker 3: the United Kingdom is there's just countless examples of just

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Speaker 3: a little farther off the beaten track or on your

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Speaker 3: way from here to there, at all the the golf

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Speaker 3: tour stops that you got to make if you're going

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Speaker 3: over there, that's when you find there's just countless examples.

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Speaker 3: And it's not because that's a top hundred course, but

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Speaker 3: it's probably got some top hundred holes on it, and

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Speaker 3: the reasons for that are countless.

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Speaker 2: I was driving back.

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Speaker 1: From a trip with my wife once and we were

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Speaker 1: driving through upper part of Wisconsin, and I knew we

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Speaker 1: were driving right by Pine Hills, which is in Sheboygan

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Speaker 1: Cohler and We're driving and I said to my wife,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, I need to make a stop. It's

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Speaker 1: only going to take twenty minutes. And I could see

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Speaker 1: my wife rolling her eyes because.

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Speaker 3: You know, it never takes twenty minutes.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it was late in the afternoon, and

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Speaker 1: I stopped. I got off the road. I drove into

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Speaker 1: the parking and they have like a long drive. I

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Speaker 1: drove into the driveway, I just parked the car and

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Speaker 1: I literally I had running shoes on. I got out

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Speaker 1: and I ran around the golf course. It's like I

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Speaker 1: must have run two and a half miles, like and

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Speaker 1: I just ran just to see what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, this what's is unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: And it was even just doing that.

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Speaker 1: I saw it and I was like, Okay, I have

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Speaker 1: to come back here.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, it's like the affirmation is, like.

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Speaker 1: I think, one of the fun most fun things, you know.

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Speaker 1: I did a podcast with Tom a few months ago,

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Speaker 1: and I was telling him about my drive from from

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Speaker 1: Kansas to Nebraska. I was going from Prairie Dunes to

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Speaker 1: to wild Horse and it was you know, Tom's obviously

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Speaker 1: the world traveler, the explorer loves stopping at random places.

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Speaker 1: I've told him how I like rubber necked in this

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Speaker 1: little town in Kansas, Ellsworth, Kansas. I rubbernecked because I

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Speaker 1: saw this golf course to my right and just the

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Speaker 1: way the holes laid over the ground you were. And

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Speaker 1: then I you know, I was talking to a buddy

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Speaker 1: on the phone and I'm like, hey, can you look

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Speaker 1: up Ellsworth golf course? Like yeah, Like he looked at

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Speaker 1: He's like nineteen twenty It's like nineteen twenty four.

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Speaker 2: So I like, I like, turn, I pulled a U,

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Speaker 2: I got out. I want.

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Speaker 1: I just looked at it for ten minutes, but it

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Speaker 1: was you know, I had to be somewhere.

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Speaker 2: But that is I think one of the neatest things

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Speaker 2: about you know it.

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Speaker 1: You know, in a way, it's like when you find

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Speaker 1: the great restaurant that nobody knows about. Absolutely, you find

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Speaker 1: the cool bar that's tucked away in the in the

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Speaker 1: corner of a town.

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Speaker 3: We all have that motivation for that pleasure in that discovery.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's there are a lot of parallels I

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Speaker 3: think of Music's probably the easiest one for me, when

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Speaker 3: you hear a track that you've never heard before from

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Speaker 3: a band you've never heard of, and you know, music's

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Speaker 3: that way when you hear it, it takes seconds and

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Speaker 3: you know you dig it and you can't put your

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Speaker 3: finger on it. But that is one of life's greatest

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Speaker 3: simple pleasures, is hearing a song you've never heard before

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Speaker 3: that leads you down, you know, a path to learning

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Speaker 3: more about the band and hearing another track and another track,

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Speaker 3: and and it's endless and in new Music's all around

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Speaker 3: us all the time, and that's one of the that's

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Speaker 3: one of the most enjoyable things. I know. Music's a

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Speaker 3: huge part of my life. So that's just an easy

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Speaker 3: analogy for me. But it's a lot like that, and

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Speaker 3: it's just enjoyable. It's fun to discover a band. I mean,

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Speaker 3: like we were just talking about earlier, the Revivalist playing

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Speaker 3: two hundred yards from our office several years ago, and

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Speaker 3: now they're you know, they've hit the scene. They've hit

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Speaker 3: the scene, and it's fun to be to be able

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, I saw them when.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, like you said on your drive, if

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Speaker 3: you're driving past something that looks interesting and then you

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Speaker 3: learn it was built in the twenties, it's worth taking

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Speaker 3: a visual listen. Yeah, very rarely do you regret making

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Speaker 3: a stop like that, because there probably is at least

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Speaker 3: a couple of holes that are like, wow, that's nifty.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to have a go at that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's that's the thing I mean I think about.

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Speaker 1: I always think about, like, what's the number of bad

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Speaker 1: holes that a course can have and still be great?

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Speaker 2: Like mediocre holes?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: But then there's also like the flip side of it

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Speaker 1: is like what's the number of good holes does a

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Speaker 1: course need to have in order to be that?

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Speaker 2: You need to see it, you know, like that you

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Speaker 2: should see it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's the there's a great little nine

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Speaker 1: hole that I found called Eagle Springs in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 2: It's in the kind of it's kind of.

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Speaker 1: Like an hour or so from Milwaukee, but in the

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Speaker 1: sticks and the first two holes are like knock your

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Speaker 1: socks off.

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Speaker 2: Holes, right, And I say to people, like.

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Speaker 1: It's worth just going and playing the first two holes.

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Speaker 1: You can decide to play the rest of the seven.

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Speaker 1: But if you if you pay the I think it's

404
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Speaker 1: twenty bucks. Those two holes are you know, out of

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Speaker 1: this world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was worth the seven fifty per hole that

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Speaker 3: you paid to play.

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Speaker 2: Those exactly, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's this is interesting to me because again it's it's music.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm way older than you. I bought cassette

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Speaker 3: tapes and LPs for a time, and then CDs, and

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Speaker 3: now music has evolved into this whole completely different way

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Speaker 3: that we find new music listen to new music. But

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Speaker 3: my metric for buying a CD to put into my

415
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: collection was I needed to hear three tracks from the

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Speaker 3: album that I liked enough to buy the CD. And

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Speaker 3: that was kind of my recipe. If it only had one,

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Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't Two was kind of a push, but

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Speaker 3: I needed to have three out of the ten or

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Speaker 3: twelve and then I would add it to my collection.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think that's any different than what you

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Speaker 3: just subscribed. If those first three holes are really good,

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Speaker 3: it's okay that the others aren't that great because you

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Speaker 3: can go listen to the first three tracks again.

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Speaker 1: Well that's like the interesting thing too with music about

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Speaker 1: when you see bands, Like it's so fun to watch

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Speaker 1: a band rise up, Like, you know, there's this band,

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Speaker 1: Lord Heuron that I saw in Austin that was tiny ooh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then they became bigger. But then I

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Speaker 1: went to Cago show and Leon Bridges opened for them,

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Speaker 1: and now Leon Bridges is you know, trending towards.

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Speaker 2: Superstardom, right, you know.

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Speaker 1: And it's so funny because like I found this little band.

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Speaker 1: But when you go to a small when you go

435
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: to the band early on, you go to a concert,

436
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: there's really you're going for three or four songs, yeah,

437
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: And then you realize the really great bands when you

438
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: go see you know, Red like for me, Red Hot

439
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: Chili Peppers. Sure they can fill a show, and you

440
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, they didn't even play these songs that

441
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: I love because they have the whole cash exactly. And

442
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really similar to golf courses where, like

443
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: the really great courses, every single hole you're like, you

444
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: just want more and more, yes, But but then with

445
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 1: you know, the up and comers, it's like, oh, a

446
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: couple holes here, a couple holes there, yea, and those

447
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: are totally they're worth seeing.

448
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: For sure, you know, yeah, for sure. And and I

449
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 3: you know, at the end of the day, I think

450
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 3: anytime you see a golf hole you haven't seen, or

451
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: even if they are in your estimation all eighteen or

452
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: just mediocre, there's still something if you're plagued with the

453
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 3: disease of being interested in golf architecture, that you'll find

454
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 3: that you take away. There's always a takeaway, even if

455
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 3: it's like, well, that situation is so bad, you know,

456
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 3: that shouldn't shouldn't have happened at all, and you're still

457
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: taking away that you're still learning something from it. But

458
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: maybe there's a way that three holes flow together, even

459
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: though they're not great holes, the walk is just lovely.

460
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 3: That's still something, you know, that's still a takeaway. And

461
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: I think that's what we have all gotten over time.

462
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 3: From Tom. And I'm not nearly as good at or

463
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: willing or dedicated as Eric Iverson and Brian Slonik and

464
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 3: Brian Schneider, who probably has seen more golf holes than

465
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: any other human being. What he knows and that's his

466
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: that is his mantra. I mean, that's his that's that's

467
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 3: his mission statement is to see as much as possible.

468
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: And and I'm just fortunate the guys I work with,

469
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 3: I get to benefit from the effort that they make

470
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: because they bring that with them when they're working on

471
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: something else. And I'm just lucky to be, you know,

472
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 3: associated with them. If I'm being very honest.

473
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: You know, you used to work closely at Renaissance. I'm

474
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: sure he's a friend with Bruce Happner. You know, I

475
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: have to ask, oh, yeah, who's got the who's the deeper,

476
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: who's the bigger music fan between you two?

477
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: Oh? Man, Uh, I think I think Bruce is he

478
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: just knows more about music. He's invested more and understanding

479
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 3: little lydiosyncrasies about bands and how they relate to each other.

480
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 3: Plus he's you know, I think it's fair to say

481
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: he's he's a musician, you know, he he's actually taken

482
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 3: his love of music to the point where he's taught

483
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 3: himself to play guitar. Well, you know, pretty well, Brian

484
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: Eric Iverson and I and Brian Schneider love music till

485
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: the cows come home. You know, we can have endlessly

486
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: long conversations about music, and that's one thing that really

487
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: binds us together. But Brian Sonik's the exception of that

488
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 3: core because he is a musician. He can play several

489
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 3: instruments well, and he does it so matter of factly,

490
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: and so I can't think of the correct word for

491
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: how someone that talented is just so matter of fact

492
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: about it. But that just makes it even cooler. You know,

493
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: the guys I work with are really really hyper talented,

494
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 3: but not just in golf, and I think they're able

495
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: to draw on their additional talents and bring that into

496
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: the golf stuff, and it finds its way into our work,

497
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's shaping a green or you know.

498
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: Most of the way I contribute is drawing. But I

499
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: when I'm listening to music and it's the right track

500
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: pops on when I'm drawing, the drawing is invariably better.

501
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: You can't put your finger on why it just the

502
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: lines flow. It feels good. I like to say the

503
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: drawing is talking to you or me. When I'm doing

504
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 3: a plan, there's a point hopefully in anyone that I

505
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 3: do that it starts to talk to me, and it

506
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: just means it's pleasing to my eye. So I'm happy

507
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 3: with it.

508
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: It's amazing how I think that people get such tunnel vision.

509
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: I have to be so dedicated to my you know,

510
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: I have to work, work, work, and we have this.

511
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 2: Workaholic doesn't stop.

512
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: But like one of the things that happens is a

513
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: lot of times when you take a step away or

514
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: you take a diversion, what it does is it leads

515
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: you to better work shortly thereafter. I've been like you know,

516
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: for me, I've got a one year old. You know,

517
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: it's been a crazy year. You've had COVID, you know,

518
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: you own a small business. It's been stressful, and like

519
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: you know, I took a vacation last week. I did

520
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: almost no work, and it's amazing how much more refreshed

521
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,959
Speaker 1: and excited I was to like do work. And I

522
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: obviously have a job that I love, and you know,

523
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: I very rarely am not excited, but like just the

524
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: the enthusiasm I felt through me this week because I

525
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: got a chance and and things I thought about all

526
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, when I was going on hikes or doing

527
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: different things. It just it's amazing how other interests can

528
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: lead to better work in your field.

529
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: No question, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean,

530
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: you've really hit the nail on the head and and

531
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: whatever that is for whatever you do. I mean, we're

532
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: both lucky. We really enjoy what we do. And I'm

533
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: even more fortunate I enjoy the people that I am

534
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: doing my work with. If you can say that with

535
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 3: a straight face and really mean it, you're light years

536
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 3: ahead of so many other folks, you know. They and

537
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: I like to think that's what hopefully makes everything that

538
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: we do that much better, is because we enjoy those

539
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 3: those very fortunate benefits. And you know, we have all

540
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 3: our own cliches about if the project is fun, if

541
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: the fun factor is high, the work's better. I think,

542
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's the same concept of what you

543
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: just described, and not doing some work for a while

544
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: makes you, if nothing else, it just makes you appreciate

545
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: what you have a little bit more, and that makes

546
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 3: things a little bit more enjoyable. I mean, we're all

547
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: just trying to to sprinkle as much of that stuff

548
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: in our day to day existence as we can. And

549
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: and I'm just lucky I've been able to do the

550
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: lion's share of that for the lion's share of the time.

551
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: So you you touched on your your drawings.

552
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: I think everybody that's listening to this podcast has probably

553
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: seen one of them. If if they haven't, we'll probably

554
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: post some accompanied visuals with with this podcast so you'll

555
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: be able to check it out.

556
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: But I'd love to hear how you got started with

557
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: the drawing?

558
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: Was you know, were you really great artists as a kid, Like,

559
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: how did this come about?

560
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: How did you you know? You you do all.

561
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: The drawings for all of Tom's you know, master plans,

562
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: all of the Renaissance, you know, golf Desiyes, master plans,

563
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's something that it seems

564
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: like is very is a growing side of your business

565
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: in terms of the drawing.

566
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: So how did it get started for me?

567
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: My parents? I don't think either one, if they were here,

568
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: would say they passed on necessarily any art genes. But

569
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: they were creative people. They had music on again, music,

570
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: they had music one all the time, and they were creative.

571
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 3: They just thought about things differently. And they, you know,

572
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: myself and my two younger sisters, they we were always

573
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: encouraged to try stuff. Swimming, lessons, you know, you name it, pottery,

574
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: just whatever, make a mess, see if you like it.

575
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: And I one of the first things they put in

576
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 3: front of me was just a big blank you're too

577
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: young to know what a big chief pad was, aligned

578
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: pad with lines on one side and a grid on

579
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: the there and some blank pages in the middle, and

580
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: a fresh box of colored pencils or crayons, the cool

581
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: sixty four box with the sharpener in the back. I

582
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 3: mean that with a big chief pad was it was

583
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: just magic to me, and you could draw whatever you wanted,

584
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 3: whatever inspired you. So I just liked drawing my whole life.

585
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 3: It just was. It seemed to come easy enough, and

586
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 3: I've always always enjoyed it. So that you know, that's

587
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: way back to the start, but fast forward to the

588
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 3: to the golf world. Clients, especially if they're writing checks,

589
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 3: like to see something that makes them feel comfortable that

590
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: they have an idea of what they're getting for what

591
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: they're investing in, and drawings are the very first thing

592
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 3: they lay their eyes on. And it's been a fascinating

593
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: journey andy for me working for Tom, because you know,

594
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 3: that's a that's a double edged sword. Tom doesn't want

595
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 3: to be constrained by some artist's vision at the beginning,

596
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: you know, to have to stick to that is just

597
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: bad form. You don't end up with the best product

598
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: at the end.

599
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: But I mean, what's the pet die The famous Pete

600
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: story is he needed to submit plan, submit plans, and

601
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: he submitted plans for another golf course that already had

602
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 1: been built to get the you know all those things.

603
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and and the truth is that

604
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 3: is the truth. Yeah, you know, the the the drawings

605
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 3: you see from the twenties and thirties that I like

606
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: to refer to rarely ended up. You know, that would

607
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 3: look anything like an as built. They didn't even bother

608
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 3: with that stuff. Then there was no need. The golf

609
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: course is done, Let's go play golf. But you know

610
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 3: that's a that's a that can be a sticky wicket

611
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 3: putting something in front of a client at the beginning

612
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 3: and then for some reason, you you you diverge from that,

613
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 3: and they think, well, what happened did you get it wrong?

614
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: Is something out of place? Did you not study the

615
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 3: ground well enough that you were really committed to that?

616
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: And you know that's something that you overcome over time.

617
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: And I think that's something like you know, in the

618
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: most for the most part, you're getting hired by business

619
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: people or lawyers or doctors.

620
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 2: And and for the most part, indeed.

621
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: Their their job is they this is what we're going

622
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: to do, and we execute it versus like anybody that's

623
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: in any sort of a creative role, Like I have

624
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: like five things that I wanted to talk to you about,

625
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: and we haven't touched on any of them right till now,

626
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: you know.

627
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: Because we went on a diversion. We get back.

628
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: When I set out to write something, it might start

629
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: as one idea and end up something completely different by

630
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: the time you get writing and your thoughts developed. And

631
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: the same thing for your work, like you get working

632
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: and you might see something or you might move dir

633
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: one way and then all of a sudden something else

634
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: becomes way more apparent.

635
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, that's a that's spot on. A drawing

636
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: really can't evolve. I mean it, you know it's going

637
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: to have if it's a routing plan it's going to

638
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 3: have eighteen holes depicted in some form or another. But

639
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: the way you depict them and how you orient them

640
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 3: on the page. And for me, things that I get

641
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 3: excited about are, you know, what's the north are going

642
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: to look like here? And and how do I incorporate

643
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: I like to sort of mush stuff together rather than

644
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: have defined edges on things. I like to break the

645
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: borders of the drawing. You know, I like to have

646
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 3: stuff meld from one thing into another. And then you know,

647
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: we've had the good fortune of working on some logos

648
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: on some projects, and you know, that process is very

649
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: similar to It's not a huge departure from building golf holes.

650
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: You know, you think you start with an idea and

651
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 3: sometimes you're excited about it, and sometimes you're not excited

652
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: about it, but you get excited because you're looking at

653
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: it all of a sudden in a different way. And

654
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 3: you know, I like to look at the drawings that

655
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 3: way too, And you know, so much of that is

656
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: from how I grew up and being encouraged to be

657
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 3: creative from my parents and friends and people around me.

658
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: And you know, that's like finding a new golf hole.

659
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 3: It's a fun process. Because you discover things. I had

660
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: a professor in college and my color theory class at

661
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 3: Colorado at CU that intentionally put a nice drawing on

662
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 3: a drafting table on one of his lectures and dumped

663
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 3: coffee on it. And we were all aghast, why did

664
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 3: you do that? That was a cool drawing. And then

665
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 3: he turned it into something different. He incorporated the stain

666
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: after it dried into clouds that looked like a perspective

667
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: on what one of the building elevations was going to be.

668
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: And I think that happens with golf construction too. You

669
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: know there might be this native done that you really

670
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: wanted to preserve and a contractor tracked over it or

671
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: took a tree down that wasn't supposed to God forbid

672
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 3: or something like that. And you know, that's just life.

673
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 3: That's and and if you can adapt what you're building

674
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: on a golf course that way, you can do it

675
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: with drawings, and you can you can do it with everything.

676
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: And do you do you look at other types of

677
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: maps like absolutely? And if so, like what are some

678
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: type of specific maps that you think back to a lot?

679
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it's not really the one. And I'm

680
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 3: an instagram I follow classic maps, old charts. You know,

681
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 3: there's a there's a there's a there's an instagram that's

682
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: I think it's just called I E Fing love maps

683
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 3: and and uh and and anytime you look at some

684
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 3: way that someone cartographically, you know, took cartography and stretched

685
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: it to show data in a different way, in a

686
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 3: visual way. I mean invariably we're all simple humans are

687
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: or we're looking for all of the data fast as

688
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 3: we can get it. And I like to think, you know,

689
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 3: graphics have a way of conveying something perhaps quicker than

690
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 3: a lot of other things. And I just try and

691
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: do that with golf maps too.

692
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: Now with that, you know, you're trying to convey architecture

693
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: in a you know too?

694
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: Is it one dimensional maps? One dimensional?

695
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well to the third try to get it's like

696
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: you say, trying to get that the third dimension to

697
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 3: marry to the first two. There's lots of ways to

698
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: do that.

699
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: There's trick like it's not you're not drawing.

700
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: I think you know one of the you're probably it's

701
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: probably not identical the scale always of your You need

702
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: to what are some hacks in order to that you

703
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: use to convey because I think one of the things

704
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: that your maps do so so well is convey the

705
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: architecture and give you a sense of what you might

706
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: see without being able to see any of the setting.

707
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very high compliment, and I take it

708
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 3: as such. I appreciate that. You know, I've learned over

709
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 3: time that there are just things that your eye that

710
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: appeals to your eye, and I'm really just trying to

711
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 3: appeal to my own eye. And one of the ways

712
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 3: is just you know, line weight patterns, hatching, stippling that

713
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: create texture, and really what you're trying to do is

714
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 3: demonstrate elevation change and where that elevation change hopefully is

715
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 3: strategic in the golf hole. But also you know, could

716
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: create a feeling of something that's really high or really

717
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: low that you're playing off of or around or up

718
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: against or whatever. And you know you can you over

719
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 3: time you kind of learn how to do that with

720
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: with lines and line weight widths and you know, dark lines,

721
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 3: light lines, long thin lines together, spread apart. You know,

722
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 3: the options are endless, which is another reason that is

723
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 3: so fun, because I'm constantly discovering different ways to try

724
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: and convey this is a subtle contour, or this is

725
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: a monster contour and it's going to potentially affect your

726
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 3: golf ball this way or that way. And the other

727
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 3: thing is just you know, it's what draws your eye

728
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 3: to a great photograph. If there's contrast, if there's engaging contrast,

729
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 3: your eye just picks up on that. The brain looks

730
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 3: for the black against the white. And if you have that,

731
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: that's a powerful statement. And if you can marry that

732
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: to the more subtle stuff, then you can start to

733
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: create a visual vernacular if you will, of this is

734
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 3: a steep slope, or that fairway's cant it hard right

735
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: to left? And you know, then hopefully you can start

736
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: to see if that fairways can't it hard right to left.

737
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 3: That's clearly why you know, the front right of the

738
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: green is protected or the front left of the green

739
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: is protected as the case maybe because most people are

740
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: going to end up on the right side. If you're

741
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 3: good enough to keep it on the left, now you

742
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 3: have an advantage on your ensuing shot. So it's those

743
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: are the kinds of things. And I experiment a lot.

744
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: You know, I've tried things that I thought really worked,

745
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 3: and then I've had things that didn't. And but again

746
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 3: it's like seeing new golf. Every time you do something,

747
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 3: hopefully you get a little better at it.

748
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: Was there.

749
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: Maybe an experiment that you a tweak that you did

750
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: that really, you know, you feel elevated your maps, Like,

751
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: was there a specific moment where you tried something a

752
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: little different that that really made them take off?

753
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: That's a really good question, I think, Andy. My best

754
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: answer for that would be, you know, if you if

755
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 3: you go back through all the old architecture books that

756
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: are available and look at the old the old guys

757
00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: and how they illustrated and graphically showed things, there's you know,

758
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 3: there's ways to depict greens, there's ways to depict bunkers,

759
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 3: grassing lines and teas. But I think the thing that's

760
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 3: maybe evolved the most for me, and it's still evolving,

761
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: is you know, how do you The key in that

762
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 3: is how do you demonstrate which way the hole plays

763
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 3: and drawing the center lines, you know, the directional arrows.

764
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 3: Here's the t shot, here's if it's a par five,

765
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: here's the interim shot before your final approach. In theory,

766
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 3: not that there are very many par fives anymore as

767
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: far as everybody hits the ball, but there were lots

768
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 3: of different ways. Some guys just put an arrow from

769
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 3: the tee pointing in that general direction and didn't even

770
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: bother trying to show you where you're supposed to hit it.

771
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 3: And so ways to have that information is on there,

772
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 3: because I think the first thing someone does when they

773
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: see a routing plan is they want to follow the path.

774
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 3: They want to see where the holes go, where they

775
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 3: how do they traverse over the property, and where is

776
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 3: the first part three? And you know whatever whatever golf

777
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 3: language is in our mind, that when we look at that,

778
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 3: like you say, especially if you haven't seen it before,

779
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: that's important because that's what people are absolutely going to do.

780
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 3: They're going to find the first tea in the eighteenth

781
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 3: green and they're going to try and follow it all

782
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 3: the way around. And it's it's kind of like finding

783
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 3: a path in the woods. You know, we like those things.

784
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: It's just visually fun. So I've experimented a lot with

785
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 3: that on how to get that information on the plan

786
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 3: without it being the overpowering bit of data. And you know,

787
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 3: sometimes that's more important.

788
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: If the probably a lot what you talked about the

789
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: weight of your of your draw right, if if you're

790
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: too heavy on that then that overpowers everything around it,

791
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: so it almost needs to be lighter in a way exactly.

792
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: And and you know each plan that that the style

793
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: you're using, you get to decide. That's what's so fun

794
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 3: about drawing. It's all up to you. You know, how

795
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: heavy is that going to be? What color is it

796
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: going to be? I mean, color is just hugely powerful stuff.

797
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: And black and white with one color can be incredibly

798
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: powerful and can convey an idea very very quickly. So

799
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: you know, that's what's fun about it is interpreting what's

800
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 3: what am I trying to convey and who's my audience

801
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 3: and how can I best convey what's going on here?

802
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 3: And you know, I guess the other thing too, is

803
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,439
Speaker 3: just putting a little flagstick that's waving on the green

804
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 3: and you know everybody immediately can okay, that's that's where

805
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 3: this hole is going. And if you have a flagstick

806
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 3: that that that is easy to pick up. And people

807
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 3: like architecture, they I think, I like to think their

808
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 3: eye goes backwards from there and they kind of try

809
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: and figure out the strategy of the whole and that

810
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: makes it. You know, that's fun too. The really simple

811
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 3: things The truth is all the old guys did that too,

812
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 3: if you look at it, and you know, I'm just

813
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 3: I'm just borrowing what I think are good ideas. I

814
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 3: haven't really invented anything, Andy, I'm just maybe reinterpreting it

815
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 3: a little bit and trying to add a little bit

816
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 3: of style to it, you know. I think the other

817
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 3: thing I like to do and try hard to do

818
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: is make the drawings to age them, which is no

819
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 3: different than the golf holes that were trying to build

820
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 3: in the field.

821
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,479
Speaker 1: Rough like if you're doing a restoration, making the bunk

822
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: and not having everything look new.

823
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, Yeah, the older the better, all the way

824
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 3: down to you know, the cyanotype blue background, right, Yeah,

825
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 3: that's the Sir John Herschel in the eighteen forties was

826
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 3: you know, that's when photography was just sort of being

827
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 3: figured out. Before that, it was Da Vinci's camera obscure

828
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 3: from the fifteen hundred, so that was revolutionary stuff at

829
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 3: the time. But that goes back to the com because

830
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 3: that really deep, meaningful ocean blue background with essentially white

831
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 3: line work. I mean, the contrast is tremendous and it

832
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 3: and it ages it. I mean that that background is

833
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 3: light sensitive, so over time those old cyanotype drawings invariably

834
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 3: faded and stuff, and now they're sort of being discovered

835
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: and paid attention to again. And that's that's a way

836
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 3: I'd like to try and add age to the to

837
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 3: the drawings that that I've worked on. And we did

838
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 3: that intentionally with a of course, a course guide at

839
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 3: Lanark Country Club where in my backpack. Yeah, that was

840
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 3: the intent from the beginning. There was someone in the

841
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 3: nineteen thirties that did really rough versions of the holes

842
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: there at the time, and the architecture is different and

843
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 3: far more sporty now, but we took that flavor and

844
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 3: tried to just make a direct trend to the yardage

845
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 3: book to make the place feel aged and old. There's

846
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 3: just something about some you know, it doesn't matter if

847
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,479
Speaker 3: it's a pair of Levi's, if it's old and worn,

848
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: it's just a little more comfortable and it's a little

849
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 3: easier on the eyes, and plus it's just fun.

850
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: It's like wearing you're it's like when you wear your

851
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: jeans fresh out of the wash versus the.

852
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: Second day out of the wash.

853
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: Very well said with the you know, with what you're

854
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: describing in many ways it. I think it's what when

855
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: you think about golf courses that really, you know.

856
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: Get you excited.

857
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: They have a lot of different things going on that

858
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: draw your eye in different places and not necessarily distract you,

859
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: but make you observe the entire.

860
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: The entire picture that you're.

861
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: Looking at, Yes, versus you know, when you think about

862
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: like the public golf course that I grew up playing,

863
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,479
Speaker 1: it had rough, fair away green and trees on both sides,

864
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: a very whole indeed, and you know that it almost

865
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 1: tunnels you. Versus when you think of a place like say,

866
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a great painting of Pacific tunes right

867
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: here that has so much texture and so as you said,

868
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: contrasts and different things that draw your eye that and

869
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: maybe that's you know, in a you know, beyond just

870
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: a strategy and everything. Certain golf courses make you so

871
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: aware of everything going on around you, and that might

872
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: be one of the things that's you know, but that's

873
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: also what you're trying to convey with the drawings, is

874
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: everything that's going on in the hole.

875
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, to the extent you can, and you're right, you know,

876
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 3: working in only two dimensions that can be tough, but

877
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 3: you're spot on. Back to consulting for a flash. You

878
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 3: know a lot of the places we've worked at for

879
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 3: a while where tea to green stuff's in pretty good order.

880
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 3: The challenge now is how do you enhance the golf experience?

881
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 3: How do you look, you know, past a green or

882
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 3: what do you see as you're going down the fairway

883
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 3: that you can reveal or offer to not just the

884
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 3: people that play there every day, but they're guests too

885
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 3: that help them remember that golf experience a little bit

886
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: better because you know, humans, if you play well, you

887
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: tend to like a golf course a little better than

888
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 3: if you don't if you're only going to play at once.

889
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 3: But if what you're looking at while you're playing, other

890
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 3: than t screens, fairways and bunkers is memorable, it just

891
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 3: enhances the golf experience. And and you know, with a drawing,

892
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: you don't you don't have that opportunity to look off site,

893
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 3: but you do have. You know, if you've got a

894
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 3: feature on a property that is significant that you're really

895
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 3: trying to take advantage of, like the Strabaklan no at

896
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 3: at the Renaissance Club and in uh in Scotland, you

897
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 3: know you can you can draw it in a way

898
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 3: that tells the observer or someone who's looking at your plan,

899
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: that must be something pretty significant because it looks different

900
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 3: than everything else. It's been called out graphically and it

901
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes it's it's just a cove or a

902
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 3: cliff side, or maybe it's a really steep cliff side.

903
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 3: If you can convey that to just a hole, not

904
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 3: just playing along a natural water based hazard like you know,

905
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 3: the ocean or the beach or the you know, a

906
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 3: lake or a pond, you can graphically make it significant

907
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 3: so that it helps someone understand that that might be

908
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 3: pretty neat golf in your ball next to that thing.

909
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 3: And it doesn't even have to be water. It can

910
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 3: be vegetation or elevation change or just you know, and

911
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 3: in many cases it's just the rare eyes sore. Maybe

912
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 3: it's an old mine or a barrow pit or something

913
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 3: like that that's overgrown. Great hazard for golf, and then

914
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 3: you try and convey that as best you can graphically,

915
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 3: and that's what's fun to do. You learn little ways

916
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 3: to make something look steep or rugged or rocky or

917
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: just steep and slippery. You know what, whatever you can

918
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 3: do and you know, that's always that's that's a fun.

919
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 2: Aspect of it too.

920
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: Just drawing other stuff other than golf help you when

921
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: you do you do that? Ever, do you ever draw

922
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: you know, something else and then does that help you?

923
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 2: Obviously you do the logo stuff.

924
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: Is there stuff that happened when you do another activity

925
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: that helps you know your your your drawing of golf GOLs.

926
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 3: That's a that's a really interesting question too, because I

927
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 3: think the answer, the short answer is yes, I've I've

928
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 3: done some some different things, not golf based, for my family,

929
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 3: you know, different points in their life, gifts to commemorate

930
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 3: different things, you know, I mean, and as digital as

931
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 3: everything is now, you can get the basic foundational stuff

932
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 3: for anywhere on the globe, a city street, you know,

933
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 3: building a landscape, view or whatever. It's all at your fingertips,

934
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 3: So you can get that framework easy and then sprinkle

935
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 3: in your family's experience in they're hopefully in a creative way.

936
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: So and I do that too. I just I love

937
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 3: doing that, I think, and it's fun for me because

938
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 3: it's again it's not that different of what I'm doing

939
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,959
Speaker 3: with golf. When I was when I was in college,

940
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 3: I had a reputation of that's the golf guy in

941
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 3: my environmental design landscape architecture emphasis area. Because I was

942
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: constantly trying to integrate golf into whatever project I was assigned,

943
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 3: people got up. My professors would just get tired of it,

944
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 3: and they tolerated me that way. But I think it's

945
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 3: funny because they tolerated it enough that I could do it.

946
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,720
Speaker 3: And that's really all golf just is just exudes itself

947
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: and pretty much my entire life, my family, my friends,

948
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 3: my work obviously, and there's always the golf thing. It

949
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 3: just seems to bubble up and find its way to

950
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:28,399
Speaker 3: the surface. And whatever I do, and back to your

951
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 3: question about doing other things, it does seem to find

952
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 3: its way in there. I have a preference for just

953
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 3: landscapes just because I you know, study it and think

954
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 3: about it and a lot, and hopefully that finds its

955
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: way into a routing or a consulting situation where the

956
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 3: good stuff that can really assist the experience of golf,

957
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 3: that has nothing to do with golf at all finds

958
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 3: its way in there. I just I like to to

959
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 3: try and integrate things together and mix things together that

960
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 3: maybe you wouldn't it wouldn't seem intuitive to do so,

961
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 3: and it's fun. I'm lucky. I'm lucky I have work

962
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 3: that lets me do those kinds of things. I think

963
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 3: most people are creative in some capacity in their own way,

964
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 3: and a lot of people might not be as lucky

965
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 3: as I have been to be able to just tap

966
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 3: into that they might be creative in a way they're

967
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 3: not even aware of. And I thank my parents for that,

968
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 3: because they just they threw everything, including the kitchen sink,

969
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 3: at us to try when we were kids, because they

970
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 3: had the realization that, you know, you don't know what

971
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 3: you're good at until you discover it.

972
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: I could relate.

973
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: I was, you know, it was in the business world,

974
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: and when I started this, I was most worried about

975
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: the creative stuff I find myself. I feel like, you know,

976
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: when I have to do run the business side of it,

977
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: it really hampers my creative you know, and it frustrates me. Yes,

978
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, so it's really you know, you don't know

979
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: what you'll be good at until you try it, and

980
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: then you know. That's I think that's really good advice

981
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: for anybody, especially people that are are starting careers. Like

982
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: you know, you think you are supposed to do this

983
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: or you want to do this. And really, as I

984
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: look back on my life, like what careers are is

985
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: like you know your different jobs are you just you

986
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: just become an expert at these really random things.

987
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting point, and we talk about

988
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 3: it a lot, you know. I think that's a thin

989
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 3: silver lining of the global health issues that we're all

990
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 3: facing now is that golf has benefited from that. You know,

991
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 3: people are playing it that haven't ever, people are going

992
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 3: back to it that got away from it for a while,

993
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 3: like we were talking about earlier, and and I hope

994
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 3: that you know that resurgence can can travel to places.

995
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: You know, that's that's an important thing that we all

996
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 3: should be trying to do, is introduce golf to as

997
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 3: many people, even in its in its rudimentary you know,

998
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 3: form sand greens with one club, you know, in a

999
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 3: desert somewhere for example. That's an extreme example. But I

1000
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 3: like to think everybody has it, and there are probably

1001
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 3: a lot of people globally that have the same potential

1002
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 3: to play the game as well as anybody ever has

1003
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 3: that don't even know what golf is. They don't even

1004
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: know the concept let alone have a club in their

1005
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 3: hands and being able to stand on maintain turf and

1006
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 3: hit a white ball. And I'm always fascinated by that. Andy.

1007
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 3: I just wonder how many really great players are that

1008
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 3: will live their entire life out there there that will

1009
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 3: never even pick up a golf club that could have

1010
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: been just amazing.

1011
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: I think about that with singing. How many unbelievable singers

1012
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: are there that a like, because it takes so much

1013
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: self confidence to put yourself out there in that aspect.

1014
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: Is like, how many great you know, like people with

1015
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: voices like Adele you know that are living that don't

1016
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: they have never tried it because they're afraid to put

1017
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: or they've never sung in front of people because they're

1018
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: self conscious. Like I think about that all the time,

1019
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: and it's it's, you know, it's like the same thing.

1020
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 2: How many great golf.

1021
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 1: Sites are there for golf courses that nobody's just come

1022
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: across that has the eye? You know, Like when I'm

1023
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: up and we're in northern Michigan right now, it's like

1024
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: I drive around and I'm just like.

1025
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, it's a hot spot up here for that.

1026
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 3: There's no question.

1027
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:57,959
Speaker 2: Turn on your head and you see.

1028
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: You see golf holes everywhere you look, and they aren't

1029
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, they're just farmland. But you just see, oh

1030
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: there's a great golf ball right there. Yeah, you know,

1031
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: I'd like to build a golf course right here.

1032
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1033
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: I was talking to a lady at a golf course

1034
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,479
Speaker 1: the other day and she was telling me about, you know,

1035
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: how she thought this one place could be really great.

1036
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: And then she was telling me she had like, you know,

1037
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: they lived one hundred and fifty acres, and I go,

1038
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: it is a cool land and she goes, yeah, it's

1039
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: really we got some ravines and stuff.

1040
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: I go, we'll just build something out there. Yeah.

1041
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, you know, the more of that

1042
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 3: that happens, the more people are likely to give it,

1043
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 3: give it a whirl. The Glen Way nine hole project

1044
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 3: in Madison that the Kaiser family is involved with. Part

1045
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 3: of the recipe is to have a big public putting

1046
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 3: green yards away from a pretty busy city intersection in

1047
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 3: town and leave, you know, as I understand it, some

1048
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 3: golf balls and some putters out there, and it's just

1049
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 3: available to anybody to just walk by, pick up a club,

1050
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 3: knock the ball, and hopefully, you know, eventually get it

1051
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 3: in the hole. I mean, it's like, that's that's as

1052
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 3: important as building a great golf course in a lot

1053
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 3: of ways. It's the first time someone puts the ball

1054
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 3: from distance and the ball goes in the hole. It's

1055
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 3: like when I was a kid, I lived in Nebraska

1056
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 3: and we fished a lot, and the first time, you know,

1057
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 3: you get live bait on a hook and a bobber

1058
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 3: in the water, and the first time you see the bobber,

1059
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 3: you know, moves, yeah. And then when it goes under

1060
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 3: it and it pulls on your your fishing pole, having

1061
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 3: a fish on That's one of life's greatest simple pleasures.

1062
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: And you know what hooks you it is literally and figuratively.

1063
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, just being a lot less

1064
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 3: formal about golf, just introduce it anyway you can get

1065
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 3: it out there. I mean. One of one of the

1066
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 3: lovely things about my wife Elizabeth, when I first met her,

1067
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 3: when she understood that I was in the business of golf,

1068
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 3: not an avid golfer, but she was confident enough to

1069
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 3: tell me how she's played before. But she keeps score

1070
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 3: with emojis, so if she plays a hole well, she

1071
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 3: gets a smile face. If she doesn't, she gets a

1072
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 3: you know, a frown, and then sometimes you have the

1073
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 3: confused look on the scorecard. And we've graduated to a

1074
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,439
Speaker 3: hybrid now where if she really does make a good score,

1075
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 3: we'll put the number down, but if you have a

1076
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 3: bad hole, just put a frown in the square and

1077
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 3: move on. You know. But I think we've figured out

1078
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 3: a way to enjoy golf together and thinking about it

1079
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 3: in a little bit different way and trying to make

1080
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 3: it accessible and keeping it fun is hyper critical, and

1081
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 3: we have an opportunity now with the focused attention on

1082
01:02:54,640 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 3: golf that has emerged in the last year to two years, hopefully,

1083
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 3: you know, the game will just become more intriguing and

1084
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 3: compelling to more people, even if they don't play it

1085
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 3: in a necessarily a conventional card and pencil way. That's

1086
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 3: I think that's really really important.

1087
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, you're talking about Glen Glen Way and the putt

1088
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: and green. Something that went through my head was one

1089
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: of the you know, it's like you get these pictures

1090
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 1: that you always remember, these pictures of life, and I

1091
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: was leaving winter Park Golf Club, the Keith rev and

1092
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: Riley Great Little Community ninth to get there one day.

1093
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: It's super cool and it's divided by all these roads.

1094
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: It's in the middle of a neighborhood. And I was

1095
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:44,479
Speaker 1: driving away, sun was going down beautiful winter night there

1096
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: and I, you know, there's a stop sign and I'm looking.

1097
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: I look right, and.

1098
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: I look left, and they've got a great community putting

1099
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: green right by the ninth tee, which is you know,

1100
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: and I look left and I see a father and

1101
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 1: like a four year old walking like down the sun

1102
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: like you got that late night sky, and it was

1103
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: just in the four year olds Karen a little putter

1104
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know, it's like an emotional

1105
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: like it like that is just such a cool thing

1106
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 1: because like you know, it's just a h you know,

1107
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: that's it reminds me of my childhood going. We had

1108
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: a big putting green at the public course that I

1109
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: grew up playing at, and I'll spend all day on it.

1110
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but putting never gets boring. Shipping and putting,

1111
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 3: yeah absolutely, And you know, if you're good at that,

1112
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 3: you can play against anybody, you know. I mean that's

1113
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 3: one of golf's discoveries.

1114
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: I think driving range almost hampers the I think youth

1115
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: development in a way, because if you become really good

1116
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: at at putting and chipping by the you know, like

1117
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: when you're young, you want to develop those skills because

1118
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 1: your body's going to change so much and your swing's

1119
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: going to change.

1120
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 2: It's your body changes.

1121
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 1: The obsession with the perfect swing because that video is

1122
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: created is like really detrimental. I think, like to like,

1123
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 1: you want your kid at at age ten just to

1124
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: know how to get the ball.

1125
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 3: In the hole absolutely and enjoy it enough, and enjoy

1126
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 3: it enough that they can't ever fix that ailment. You know,

1127
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 3: they can only try and play more and just be

1128
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 3: around it more. And I think, you know, my my

1129
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 3: my dad taught me my golf swing, and he was

1130
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 3: a golf professional in the Denver area at a Donald

1131
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 3: Ross course called Lakewood Country Club, And you know, we'd

1132
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 3: go to the range and he would always look up

1133
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 3: and down the range and and say, I can't imagine

1134
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 3: the purpose of everybody hitting a whole bucket of balls

1135
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 3: with their driver and never taking any of the other

1136
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 3: clubs out of their bag. You know, I mean, you

1137
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 3: go to the range and it's all about how far

1138
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 3: you can hit it, and the focus is never really

1139
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 3: on the short game, and you would always say, Son,

1140
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 3: the secrets in the short game. You know, as long

1141
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 3: as you have that, you can play against anybody. And

1142
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 3: he taught me a lot of things. I just I

1143
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 3: remember those that I was thinking about when you were

1144
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 3: talking about crossing the crosswalk with a dad and a

1145
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 3: four year old, and when you were talking about that,

1146
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 3: it made me think, you know, I hope we You know,

1147
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 3: short courses seem to be really gaining popularity. They seemed

1148
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 3: initially years ago they just seemed kind of hokey, like

1149
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 3: what you do with leftover ground. But for whatever reason,

1150
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 3: more people are playing, and the places you go, the

1151
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 3: accomplished golf resorts have those short courses. In Man I

1152
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 3: was at in June this year, I was at sand

1153
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 3: Valley with Brian Schneider walking around on the lido and

1154
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 3: the short course they have there, the sandbox. It's like

1155
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 3: a firecracker in an anthill. It's jammed and people are

1156
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 3: laughing and having fun.

1157
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: And I think that short course. I haven't seen all

1158
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: the short courses, but that short course to me, blows

1159
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,959
Speaker 1: away every other short course. They that Bill and Bill

1160
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: and Jim Craig, I know Jim. It was kind of

1161
01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: Jim's baby. They did such an unbelievable job.

1162
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 2: That it's fantastic, so fun.

1163
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:05,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I have a you know, we'll

1164
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: see when Lido is done. But I say to people,

1165
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 1: that's the best golf course on the property.

1166
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and the other golf course are

1167
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 3: really good.

1168
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 2: Yes they are, Yes, they are.

1169
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 3: And I think it's because it's the you know, for

1170
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 3: for most people, it's the easiest way to have fun.

1171
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 3: You drop your expectations, you drop your the tenseness of it.

1172
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 3: You know, this isn't where you give yourself a pass.

1173
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 3: This isn't real golf, or this isn't regular golf. So

1174
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 3: it's okay. I don't have to get all worked up

1175
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 3: about it. And you can play it with a cocktail

1176
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 3: and play it in your flip flops and and in

1177
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 3: the evening. And you know, most people that have the

1178
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 3: ability to spend time at a place like Sand Valley,

1179
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 3: you know, golf fatigue can set in. You know, you're

1180
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 3: there for a while and you want to play eighteen

1181
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 3: more holes, but you're just beat. You know, you're just tired,

1182
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 3: you're eater, sore, and your hands hurt. But you can

1183
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 3: always go around the short course. I mean the one

1184
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 3: at at bally Neil. The Mulligan Course at bally Neil

1185
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 3: is just an absolute riot. And I haven't seen the

1186
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 3: one at Forest Duns yet that Keith and Riley built,

1187
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 3: but it just looks really really fun.

1188
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1189
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 3: And if if if you go on a golf trip

1190
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 3: and you don't play well, but you have a lot

1191
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:30,120
Speaker 3: of fun on this short course, it's it's still a success. Well.

1192
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: I think there's also something that underlying with the short

1193
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 1: course where the concept of fair oh yeah gets kind

1194
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: of dropped a little bit, and it's probably something that

1195
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,919
Speaker 1: should you know, work its way over to big courses

1196
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: where this idea of oh this screen wasn't fair right,

1197
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: or this this screen was too extreme. And then but

1198
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 1: then the same people that say that go to the

1199
01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 1: short course and say, oh this everything's fun. Yeah, And

1200
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 1: it to me, in my head, it just doesn't compute because,

1201
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 1: like I know, in talking to Bill about the Sandbox,

1202
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 1: he talked about how he could do things he couldn't

1203
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 1: do on the big course there, and in my head,

1204
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, And I

1205
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: think when we look back at like the Golden Age

1206
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,839
Speaker 1: stuff and the iconic golf courses.

1207
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 2: A lot of those greens are the greens that you find.

1208
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: On short courses where it's okay to be to build

1209
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: stuff that's a little bit more extreme. Ye, that's a

1210
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: little bit on the edge, and you know, I think

1211
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: that's a big lesson. I think another thing that's magical

1212
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 1: about short courses is that it brings the skills gap

1213
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 1: close together, because that's what makes par three short, Part

1214
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: three so beloved. It's where, you know, the twenty handicap

1215
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: can beat the plus two. I played golf, you know,

1216
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 1: and this was a time where I was playing a

1217
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: lot of amateur golf tournaments and I played on a

1218
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: buddy's bachelor party. There's this cool place Mcmenimon's in Portland.

1219
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: The next time you're in Portland, they have a course

1220
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: called the Pub Course.

1221
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 2: And it's the clubhouse like it already.

1222
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 1: There's a bar and they have great tap beer taps,

1223
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: great beers, and you go there and they've got I

1224
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: think it's a ten hole course and a twenty two

1225
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 1: hole course.

1226
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 2: And we played and my buddy at.

1227
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:19,640
Speaker 1: The time, I must have been a plus two, and

1228
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 1: my buddy, who's like a twelve, beat me. When you

1229
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 1: shorten the course and you removed when you take driver

1230
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: out of.

1231
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 2: The equation, absolutely all of a sudden's it, you.

1232
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 1: Know, like everybody can beat anybody on any hole because

1233
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 1: all it takes is.

1234
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,799
Speaker 2: One great shot, one swing. Yeah yeah, And then.

1235
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 1: Over the course of ten holes you can get beat

1236
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: by somebody that it would have no chance, right, remote

1237
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,600
Speaker 1: chance of hanging with you for nine holes on a

1238
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 1: regular golf course.

1239
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think it the magic's in the shortness.

1240
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,799
Speaker 3: You take the driver out of the less accomplished player's

1241
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 3: hands and don't require that of them, and all of

1242
01:10:55,720 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 3: a sudden, there's just more opportunity for an interesting match.

1243
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 1: And it makes sense why you know it's a great

1244
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 1: recipe for beginners is because it gives them the opportunity

1245
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: to have success on a on a single hole, even

1246
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 1: if it's just a single hole. If they can walk

1247
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: away making a three, they feel like, oh, this is

1248
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:21,800
Speaker 1: what got me back, is.

1249
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 3: No question, right, And and and golf's hard enough as

1250
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 3: it is exactly, you know, and and and when you're

1251
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 3: you go back to the tree lined, narrow course you

1252
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 3: were talking about earlier. Even a player that's not accomplished

1253
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 3: has the talent to chip a ball out from behind

1254
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 3: a tree back into the fairway. You know, I mean

1255
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,759
Speaker 3: that that doesn't that doesn't take a lot of skill,

1256
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 3: and it certainly ain't much fun.

1257
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:46,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, I.

1258
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 3: Think discovering that that one swing short course where you

1259
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 3: can do something memorable against somebody who's a way better

1260
01:11:55,600 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 3: player than you are, has a very redeeming, very strong

1261
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,920
Speaker 3: gravitational pull to it because of that, because we all

1262
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 3: want to feel like, you know, we can compete. I mean,

1263
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 3: the idea of the handicap system was to take the

1264
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 3: less accomplished player and help them be a better competitor

1265
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 3: against someone else. But but actually beating somebody on a

1266
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 3: whole is way more fun than just taking off three

1267
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 3: shots because your handicap said you could against that.

1268
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 2: It's it's like a fake win versus a real win. Yeah, exactly.

1269
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 1: And I don't want to say that it's a fake win,

1270
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 1: but it is a fake win.

1271
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and it's all how you look at it.

1272
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's not necessarily a fake win.

1273
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a it's a different win

1274
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: than every other win in society would say, you know,

1275
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 1: it's a but hey, you know, we uh, running up

1276
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: on time. You know, it's my wedding anniversary. I'm going

1277
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 1: to get in trouble anniversary. You know your wife is

1278
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 1: fantastic to share you. You know, you know I she's

1279
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 1: She's gotten a nice, nice a lot of me time.

1280
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,560
Speaker 2: I think she probably is happy to be honest.

1281
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:06,160
Speaker 3: Everything everything in moderation.

1282
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I love I'm a I'm a complete

1283
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 1: hopeless artist. I uh, you know, when it comes to

1284
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 1: drawing a golf hole, I cannot draw a golf hole

1285
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: worth a lick.

1286
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of people I'd love to be

1287
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 2: able to do.

1288
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 1: I I think about them all the time I have

1289
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 1: I can visualize them in my head. I cannot draw them.

1290
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 1: What give give us hopelesses? Some some tips to.

1291
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 2: Be less hopeless?

1292
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 1: Like I would love to enter the Lido contest, but

1293
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: I can't draw off hole that would be representative of

1294
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking about.

1295
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 2: I could write about it.

1296
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's that's another good question. I think that

1297
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 3: the thing I would encourage you to do is do

1298
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 3: it anyway, Just keep going, just keep going, and that

1299
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 3: you know there there's no right or wrong way.

1300
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: Get a big pad and just as soon as I

1301
01:13:58,479 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 1: know it's off.

1302
01:13:59,360 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 2: Start over.

1303
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to the extent you're able, don't put any

1304
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 3: pressure on yourself to make something look like something you've

1305
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 3: already seen that someone told you was a good way

1306
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 3: to do this. Just do it your way. I mean,

1307
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 3: the truth is, that's how how I got where I am.

1308
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 3: I just had the blank pad and the you know,

1309
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 3: the sixty four Crayola box, sixty four crayon Crayola box.

1310
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 3: And as soon as it becomes fun for you, just

1311
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,479
Speaker 3: do that and experiment. Try all kinds of different things,

1312
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 3: different colors, different line weights, different ways to depict whatever,

1313
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 3: and mix and match and don't have any preconceived notions.

1314
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 3: And you know, I think drawings one of those things

1315
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 3: where you know, the muscle you're using your brain and

1316
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 3: obviously your eyes. You know, you're trying to convey what's

1317
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 3: in your head through your eyes onto the paper. But

1318
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 3: the thing that can be most inhibitive of about that

1319
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 3: process has nothing to do with those two things. It's

1320
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 3: all the muscles that are communicating between you know, your head,

1321
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 3: through your arms into your hands, and if those are

1322
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 3: inhibited or not comfortable or relaxed or free, it's really

1323
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 3: hard to get what you're seeing in your mind's eye

1324
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 3: on the pay point.

1325
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:22,479
Speaker 2: Relax. Yeah, the same thing with the golf swing.

1326
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, like I think that's like you swing

1327
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 1: your best when you're when you're relaxed.

1328
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's infinitely impossible to get relaxed and comfortable.

1329
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 3: It just and and and give it a whirl and tried.

1330
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 3: I would also encourage trying different mediums. You know, don't

1331
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:41,639
Speaker 3: don't stick with a sharpened pencil and a pad of paper.

1332
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 3: Get a piece of charcoal, you know, a really rough

1333
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 3: than chalk, uh, things like that.

1334
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: If it's less sharp, it doesn't show the imperfections as much.

1335
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, and and and it can also convey an

1336
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 3: idea much more boldly with contrast than trying to draw

1337
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 3: really sharp small lines. Just mix it up, you know,

1338
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 3: paint too. I've I've never really pursued painting because I

1339
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 3: just seem to have liked drawing so much. But some

1340
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 3: people that are amazing painters aren't that good at drawing

1341
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,559
Speaker 3: and don't really even enjoy it that much. I mean

1342
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 3: they're that they're similar, but they're also that much different.

1343
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 3: Just try it, Just try different things. It's uh, go

1344
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 3: play a golf course you've never played before and enjoy it,

1345
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 3: and you know, get some sidewalk, chalk out with with

1346
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 3: your toddler and just do some stuff in the driveway

1347
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 3: and see what what talks to you, because it's different

1348
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:36,839
Speaker 3: for everybody.

1349
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,600
Speaker 1: That's my only my only hope, I think actually is

1350
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 1: probably you know, learning to draw with why well I

1351
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 1: watch my daughter.

1352
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,719
Speaker 2: To learn to draw. Well, you can do it together exactly.

1353
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:50,160
Speaker 2: Who knows?

1354
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 3: You may have an artist in making? Yeah, yeah, it's

1355
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:55,520
Speaker 3: all about discovery.

1356
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,640
Speaker 1: All right, Don, People can find you on Instagram. Uh,

1357
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: Don Plasik, what's it is? A deep placic plac a golf,

1358
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 1: placic golf. You know, if I was more prepared, I would.

1359
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:08,360
Speaker 2: Have that right.

1360
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 3: I'm still learning myself.

1361
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 1: But uh and and uh and then they can they

1362
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: can find your work at you know, pretty much any

1363
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 1: renaissance golf property.

1364
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 2: And I gotta I got a whole list of question

1365
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 2: I got four topics that we never touched on today.

1366
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 2: So maybe we'll do a part two at some point.

1367
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 3: Andy, that would be lovely, be happy to great to

1368
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 3: talk with you. Thanks for stopping by.