WEBVTT - Why did the Inventor of Shopping Malls Hate Malls? 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.200 Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:13.840 Guess what, Mengo, what's that? Well, all right, I know 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.160 you love shopping malls, so I'm sure you've noticed these people, 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.439 but you know the people who like to exercise by 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.360 walking back and forth through the mall. Sure, mall walkers. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.560 It's like half the country's grandparents at least, and as 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.120 you mentioned, it's especially popular with senior citizens. But they're 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.560 actually not the only ones doing this. There was this 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.680 two thousand fifteen report from the CDC that shows that 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.680 shopping malls are now the second most popular place to 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.279 go for a walk, just behind neighborhoods. How weird is this? 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.360 It's weird, But why is the CDC doing reports on 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.000 mall walking? Well, this isn't a small report either. It's 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.480 actually fifty six pages long and I'm reading every word 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.240 of it is just riveting. But to be fair, taking 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.120 walks is a way to prevent certain diseases. And the 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.640 CDC is actually the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.240 And I bet you forgot that silent p at the 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.039 end of the CDC. There's one funny thing that I learned. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.839 It actually turns out that most mall walkers don't actually 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.480 shop at the mall. At most they might buy a 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.600 coffee at the food court or something like that. But 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.640 according to the CDC report, they really just want the camaraderie, 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.600 you know, to spend some time strolling and socializing. And 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.640 that actually puts mall walkers right in line with the 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.760 original idea for shopping malls. So the architect who designed 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.600 the first mall in America's name is Victor Gruen. He 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.800 actually envisioned the mall as a place to quote find 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:38.920 opportunities for social life and recreation in a protected pedestrian environment. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.319 That's interesting. So by that measure, despite not buying anything, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.560 mall walkers are really the only ones doing mall's right. Yeah. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.320 I don't know about from the mall manager's perspective, but 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.760 definitely from Gruin's. And he clearly had more in mind 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.040 for shopping malls than what they would ultimately become. But 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.680 what exactly did he envision, why didn't it work out? 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:00.960 And most importantly, is there still a chance that his 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.400 high hopes for shopping malls could still be fulfilled? Those 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.040 are just a few of the questions we'll try to 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:30.240 answer today. So let's dive in a their podcast. Listeners, 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.560 Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and it's 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.000 always I'm joined by my good friend mangesh Hot Ticketer 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.440 and on the other side of that soundproof glass, just 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.960 tucking into a feast of food Court staples. That's our 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.600 friend and producer Tristan McNeil. I gotta be honest, I'm 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:46.480 a little jealous of what I'm seeing over here. I know, 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.079 Mrs Fields. There's a cinnamon bun from Cinnabon, a pretzel 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.119 from Anti Ads, and a huge orange Julius to wash 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.839 it all. Man, it's like a trip to the mall 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.720 in food form. But from what it sounds like, that 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.280 wasn't exactly Victor grew his vision of them all. No, 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.200 I don't think so. But to understand what his vision 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.240 did entail, we should first talk about who Gruin was 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.679 and where he came from. So he was born in 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.560 nineteen oh three in Vienna, Austria. He grew up in 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.440 a middle class Jewish family, fell in love with the 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.920 city's thriving art scene, and this was at a pretty 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.880 young age. So in the nineteen twenties he spent many 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.840 of his evenings performing satirical theater at various cafes, and 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.640 then during the day he studied architecture and this was 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.519 at the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts, so it was 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.320 actually the same school that had rejected Adolf Hitler just 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.960 a few years earlier. Just a little fun factor growing, 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.480 I feel like too good for Hitler should be on 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:43.000 all their t shirts. Well. Unfortunately, though, the Academy wasn't 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.280 the only point of overlap between Victor Gruin's life and 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.280 Adolf Hitler. So when Nazi Germany annexed Austria back in 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:52.880 nineteen thirty eight, grew And knew it was time to 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.040 leave his country behind, and weirdly, he left the same 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.320 week as Sigmund Freud. I keep throwing in these little 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.560 side facts about all these people that I like them. Well, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.960 leaving was easier said than done, so Grewin turned to 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.520 one of his theater buddies for help with the escape, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.400 and it's actually kind of remarkable. His friend, dressed up 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.080 as a Nazi stormtrooper, escorted Grewin and his wife to 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.680 the airport and then made sure they were allowed to 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.760 board a plane to Zurich. So from there the couple 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.039 made their way to England, where they found passage on 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.280 his ocean liner and traveled over to New York City. 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:27.760 So Growin later looked back on this journey and he 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.920 said that he had arrived quote with an architect's degree, 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.440 eight dollars and no English. Pretty tough. Yeah, I mean, 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.719 that's an incredible story. So how do you make it work? Well? 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.640 He once again turned to the art scene. He joins 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.880 up with some other German immigrants and together they formed 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.880 what they called the Refugee Artist Group, where Grewin did 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.640 set design. So the group caught the attention of some 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.839 big names in the music business. This included Al Jolson 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.279 Irving Berlin, and they ended up helping them with their 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.320 songs and all of that help actually paid off. So 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.640 the next summer the group was a the Stage, an 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.679 original Broadway show, and this actually ran for eleven weeks straight, 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.400 which is just remarkable to think about this guy arriving 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.640 with eight dollars and howevery much longer later, the guy's 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.640 putting on a Broadway show that's running for eleven weeks. 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.279 It's not bad, you know. So so things were going 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.120 well for Grwin, but his architecture career had you know, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:23.120 suffered since coming to America. Then one afternoon in midtown, 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.839 grew In bumped into an old friend of his from Vienna, 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.040 was this guy named Ludwig Letterer. So Ludwig wanted to 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.479 open this leather good store on Fifth Avenue, and he 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.880 asked Grewing to help him design it, and so Grewin agreed, 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.640 and what he ultimately came up with with something of 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.560 a game changer for American store design. So rather than 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.359 build the entrance flush, you know, with the street like 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.520 all the other shops in the area, Grewin actually made 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:54.240 this recess like arcade style entryway with the tall glass 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.400 cases on either side to sort of draw in the customers. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.040 So once they came inside, these guests were just dazzled 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.880 by these faux marble floors, a green glass ceiling, a 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.760 slew of bright spotlights that sort of reflected these display cases, 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.359 and you know, the result was a store that felt 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.640 decidedly modern and unlike anything else on Fifth Avenue or 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.280 really American retail in general. So it's kind of hard 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.280 to imagine now, but customers and critics ate up this 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.480 new design, and as a result of this, Gruin was 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.600 swamped with job offers. I mean he was going to 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.440 these upscale design stores all around the city and beyond 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.520 getting these offers. So obviously designing these high end boutiques 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.320 and then going to big, boxy shopping malls seems like 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.720 quite a leap, and not exactly an upward one. Maybe so, 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:45.960 But keep in mind that Gruin was commissioned to design 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:50.080 the country's first indoor shopping mall in nineteen fifty two 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.040 and it opened in nineteen fifty six. So prior to that, 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.479 malls as we know them really didn't exist, so there 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.520 wasn't any stigma that we might associate with them today. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.640 So tell me about the revolutionary part about what Grewing 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.000 came up with. Like, what was the shopping scene like 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.560 in America pre mall? Well, it was, you know, mainly 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.960 mail order catalogs and department stores for the most part. 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.760 Outdoor shopping centers started to catch on in the nineteen twenties, 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.640 but they were basically just strip malls as we think 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:19.880 of them now, like a bunch of different stores stuck 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.080 together and just happened to share a parking lot. So 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.920 Gruen's big idea was to put all of these stores 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.320 and walkways under one roof, and then you'd have the 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.360 addition of central air and heating to make this complex 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.760 sustainable year round. And that last part was especially important 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.120 given the location of Gruen's first mall. This was the 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.840 Southdale Shopping Center and Adena, Minnesota, just outside of Minneapolis, 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.320 where the winters are obviously frigid. Exactly, I don't think 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.320 people would want to be walking around in those parking 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.760 lots in the cold of winter, and so the project 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.080 grew unsigned on for was meant to address the residents 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.080 demand for a temperate place to be able to shop, 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.400 and one where they wouldn't have to brave the cold 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.840 if they wanted to visit a different store after they've 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:05.520 gone to the first one. Yeah, that makes a ton 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.160 of sense. So what about this bigger idea he had 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.080 of them all being kind of the social hub. Well, 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.800 a lot of that was just in how he arranged 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.520 the interior. So just as an example, most shopping centers 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.520 of the era were on a single level. So you know, 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.960 you think about the number of stores in Southdale, it 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.000 was actually meant to house seventy two stores plus these 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.720 two big anchor department stores. So making your way from 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.920 one end to the other would have felt, you know, 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.320 like forever just to get there, so instead Grewing opted 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.719 for this two story design. They were linked by escalators, 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.160 of course, and now we're all envisioning kind of the 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.320 modern shopping center. So not only did this break up 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.440 that monotony and make for a much easier trip back 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.360 to the car, but it also ensured that people would 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:56.040 circulate better, have more opportunities to socialize. But probably the 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.520 most prominent example of his people first design is what 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.679 he put in the middle of it. It was kind 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.680 of an indoor garden court, I guess they called it, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:10.160 complete with the skylight, a goldfish pond, towering live trees, balconies, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.120 hanging plants, like all of this other stuff, including a 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.439 bustling cafe. There was even a twenty one ft tall 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:20.440 cage filled with brightly colored exotic birds. And so it 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.080 was basically Gruin's ode to the European piazzas that he 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.960 had grown up within Vienna, and he wanted to bring 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.200 some of that old world European charm to the American 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.480 shopping scene, which he kind of saws characterized by urban 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.319 sprawl and tacky design. So you fast forward a few 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.960 years later where in nineteen sixty at this point, and 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.680 Gruen wrote a book in which he outlined his hope 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.280 and belief that the malls could really be more like 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.640 a town square. And you know Greek Agora's of the Past, 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.480 which is not exactly what we think of malls today, right, 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.360 definitely not so. When Southdale opened in October of nineteen 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.160 fifty six, it was met with this glowing praise from shoppers, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.760 as well as dram list from every publication from Newsweek 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.120 to the New York Times, the Women's Wear Daily. In fact, 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.679 my favorite review though, comes from Time, which heralded Gruin's 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:14.480 mall as quote, the pleasure dome with parking. You know, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.800 it's just it's such a great quote. But with all 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.120 that said, there was at least one person who absolutely 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.840 detested the Southdale Shopping Mall, and that was none other 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:29.240 than the legendary architect Frank Lloyd. Right. So, a month 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.760 after the mall opened, and you know, it's gotten all 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.720 this national press, right made the pilgrimage to Minnesota to 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.800 see it for himself, and he was not impressed at all. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.960 So after his visit, right Penn the scathing article for 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.360 the Star Tribune writing, quote, what is this a railroad 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.320 station or a bus station? You've got a garden court 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.720 that has all the evils of the village street and 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.840 none of its charm. I love that the way he 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.760 really criticized it was by calling it a railroad station. 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.920 You really really burned them with that. So I'm guessing 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.680 even in the minorities, since you know, every mall seems 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.439 to have cred most of his design from Gruin's, I mean, 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.040 somebody must have liked these, right, oh absolutely. I mean 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.839 the design was such a success that it became really 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.160 the de facto blueprint for indoor malls throughout the rest 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.920 of the twentieth century. And Gruin embraced all the love 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.640 at first, and for about a decade after the south 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.760 Dale Mall opened, he gave speeches, he wrote books about 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.480 his creation, and really kind of pondered what he hoped 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.120 it would do for American society. But sadly though Gruin's 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.040 view of his work soured in the nineties, sixties and 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.720 in the seventies, is more malls began to dominate the landscape. 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.679 I mean they popped up everywhere, and worst of all, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.920 these copycat malls were built with tweak designs aimed at 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.600 maximizing profit rather than, you know, more fostering that sense 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.360 of community. So he even started to see malls that 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.319 he designed himself in a new light. So when he 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.840 visited some later in life, he wrote of the quote 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:03.040 severe emotional old shock, heat experience, and the ugliness and 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.840 discomfort of the land wasting parking lot that sprang up 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.079 around me. So it definitely changed the way he thought 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.640 about them, and it was a bit disillusioned, and he 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.280 decided to move home to Vienna. But when he got there, 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.160 he was actually heartbroken to discover that the new shopping 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.960 mall had been built just south of the old Vienna 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.120 and that it was driving independent shops out of business. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.440 And as Malcolm Gladwell put it in a piece for 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.480 The New York Or, quote Victor Gruin invented the shopping 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.480 mall in order to make America more like Vienna. He 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.760 ended up making Vienna more like America. That's awful, But 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:39.600 you know, I'm a little confused it. It It sounds like 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.199 Grewin really hated those giant mall parking lots, so were 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.640 though something that was added later and and not a 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.640 part of his original design. Yeah, that's actually pretty right. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.600 I mean, Gruin's mall designs included a much more modest 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.440 parking lot than the endless stretches of asphalt that we're 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.520 used to associating with malls today. And in fact, when 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.920 Gruin first drew the plans for Southdale, he placed it 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.560 in the center of this four hundred and sixty three 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.200 acre plot, and to fill all that surrounding space, he 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.160 drew up designs for apartment buildings and schools and a 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.040 park and actually even a man made lake. But unfortunately 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.720 none of that ever came to pass, and instead the 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.320 space was used to make this massive parking lot. And 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.840 of course future malls followed suit, and very few of 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:27.000 them ever adapted Gruen's multi use approach to these developments. 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.440 That that is a shame. You know. The whole story 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.280 kind of reminds me of what happened with the inventor 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.599 of the TV file of Farnsworth. You know, he was 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.640 another guy who saw his invention grow up in a 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.440 way he wasn't expecting and grew to kind of hate 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.120 it over time. Yeah, it is weird to kind of 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.520 resent the thing that's held up as the biggest achievement 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.319 of your life right for both these and in Gruen's case, 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.440 he actually took his distaste even further than Farnsworth by 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.720 completely disowning his creation. So, two years before his death, 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.520 which was in nineteen eighty, grew And gave a speech 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.640 in London and he washed his hands of malls entirely. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.680 Here's what he told the crowd. I'm often called the 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.920 father of the shopping mall. I would like to take 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.880 this opportunity to disclaim paternity once and for all. I 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.080 refuse to pay alimony to those bastard developments. They destroyed 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.679 our city. Okay, well, and now that we've unspoiled the 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.520 long and sad history behind the birth of shopping malls, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.440 where do you say we stepped inside of one and 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.200 take a closer look at some of the behind the 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.520 scenes tricks that developers used to keep the customer shopping. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:30.400 Sounds good, but before we get to that, let's take 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:45.520 a quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.720 we're talking about all the sort of devious design tricks 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.320 that shopping malls used to empty our wallets. But to 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.240 be clear, none of the stuff we're about to talk 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.160 about came from Victor Gruin, as you can probably guess 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.320 by now, he was fundamentally opposed to any design always 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:04.120 aimed at manipulating customers into spending more money. I think 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.560 he would have felt like he was betraying that sense 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.720 of community that he was hoping to instill in these malls. Yeah, 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.520 but there's another dark layer to the story because despite 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.200 his principled approach to design, Grown still wound up having 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.160 a shady mall tactic named after him. So, you know, 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.080 sometimes you get disoriented in a mall or a big store, 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.280 like you're just walking through this giant maze and you 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.000 kind of lose track of where you are in the 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.760 building or how long you've been there. That's known as 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.680 Gruin transfer, and Grown would have hated the name, but 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.280 the effect is a real thing, and stores actually put 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.240 a lot of effort and thought into how to best 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.000 trigger this reaction in their customers. So Victor Gruen might 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.280 have wanted malls that we're easy to navigate, but future 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.240 designers learned that confused shoppers actually spend more money, and 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.960 that's why so many malls have these maze like layouts 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.640 with difficult to find exits, and while you're wandering around. 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.920 Other carefully designed, coordinated features kind of do their part 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.760 to keep you feeling up, eat and engage. You can 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.080 think about things like music that's relaxing and played through 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.480 the pipe speakers or um eye catching entrance displays. And 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.880 the more time you spend in this mall days, the 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.400 more likely you are to make impulse buyes. Right, Like, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.520 an article on New Scientists describes it as being quote 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.040 confused into a state of unplanned consumption. I call this 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.720 the Ikea effect. I think, and and and all. This 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.360 makes sense, And I get why they called it after Gruin, 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.880 but you know, because he helped build these malls. But 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.960 actually help me out with that last part, the word transfer. Yeah, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.000 so what's actually being transferred is the desire to have 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.720 a specific item. So you go to the mall to 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.680 buy a sweater, and it's only a sweater that you're 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.520 looking for, But if the designers play their cards right, 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.600 you will be so dazzled by the time you get 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.040 to the store that your desire for a sweater will 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.480 already have been transferred to a bunch of different items 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.160 that you never planned on buying. Okay, that makes sense, 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.120 but I mean I'm still curious if grew and didn't 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.400 come up with the different sales tricks that we find 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.440 in malls now than who is responsible for that? Like 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.000 it was just mall architects who followed him or what 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.520 I mean, that's where some of the ideas came from 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.320 and new methods were added over the years, certainly, but 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.800 a lot of the common features and malls actually originated 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:15.159 with one of Gruen's contemporaries, This Fellows storefront designer. His 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.000 name was A. Alfred Todman, and he goes on to 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.520 be a huge mall mogul. In the late nineteen fifties, 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.760 Todman followed Gruen's lead by building his own indoor shopping 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.000 mall in California, and over the next fifty years or so, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.240 he just kept on building. So he actually passes away 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.679 in two thousand fifteen at the age of but his 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.240 company is still going strong with twenty four malls spread 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:41.119 across eleven different states plus Puerto Rico, South Korea, and China, 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.760 and each of them incorporate special designs, all developed by 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.000 Todman over the years. Alright, so can can you give 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.000 me some examples of what these designs are? Yeah? I 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.840 mean this is gonna sound a little hyperbolic, which I 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.359 guess the kind of is. But a lot of Todman's 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:59.680 innovations were sort of like perversions of what Gruin had designed. So, 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.280 you know, we talked about grew and wanting this two 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.080 level mall. It was so that people could circulate easier 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.320 and bump into more people. But Tobman kind of took 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.760 that trick and moved the escalators to the ends of 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.399 the buildings, so you wouldn't meet up in the center, 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.440 but rather you'd have to make the full loop around 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.840 the mall and buy more as a result, And Tobin's 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.840 mall has also applied the circulation theory to the exteriors. 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.040 He was actually the first to put a circular road 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.600 around them all and add a bunch of extra entrances 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.520 so that shoppers could easily get to any part of 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.879 the building. Oh, it's interesting. And that bit about the 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.280 moving of the escalators, I mean, it's such a good 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.280 example of how a simple tweak can change the focus 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.360 from you know, customer comfort to something that really more 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.240 benefits the sellers. And I'm curious, did you find any 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.760 other cases like that? Yeah? So another good example is 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.560 what Tobman did with the lighting. So he kept all 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.840 the skylights from Gruen's design, but he made them recess 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.640 so the sunlight would never directly affect the storefronts. And 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.960 he also added these tiny lights around the skylights so 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.840 that when the sun started to go down, customers wouldn't 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.000 take the shift in lighting as this queue that it 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.159 was time to leave. And uh, speaking of visibility, Topman 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.199 insisted on using transparent handrails in his malls so that 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.639 you could always see the stores around you, regardless of 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.359 what level you were at. I mean, apparently it was 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.040 he was trying to battle something called threshold resistance, which 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.159 I guess refers to both the physical and psychological barriers 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.439 that might prevent a customer from entering a store, Like 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:25.400 they could block your view and keep you from seeing 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.600 a store in the upper level that you might otherwise 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.480 go inside. I guess that that's part of it. Well, 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.560 I mean, speaking of psychology, we were talking about music earlier, 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.639 and I have to mention this weird fact that came 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.639 across this week. So, according to a two thousand eleven 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.439 report from Stanford, all the malls in America put together 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.439 consume more than a gig a lot of electricity every 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.080 month just from playing that awful background music that's supposed 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.800 to make you shop more. And when you do the 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.600 math on this, that energy usage comes out to three 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.479 thousand metric tons of C O two added to the 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:02.520 atmosphere each year just from this open music. Yeah, I mean, 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.240 I guess not only as an annoying and manipulative it's 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:10.240 also contributing to climate change. Well. To be fair, human 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.240 society admits around thirty giga tons of greenhouse gases per year, 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.560 so it's not like three thousand tons from the mall 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.320 is doing that much damage. But I just thought that 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.639 that was interesting. And you know, of course, once you 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.000 factor in all the energy that malls used to heat, 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.000 cool and light these massive interiors around the clock, their 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.480 contribution actually starts to look a bit more significant when 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:33.600 you put it in, you know, as a whole. I guess, yeah, 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.000 I'm sure. I Actually, Gabe was telling me about this 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.400 one mall he was in Kentucky where there were only 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.360 like two or three actual stores, and the entire complex 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.159 still open like every other one had been shuttered. But 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.320 the A C. The lights, the escalators, the music, you know, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.680 all of that was still going on throughout the building. 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:51.720 And that's actually not a one off thing. There are 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.280 hundreds of malls like that across the country. I feel 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.600 like you see them on YouTube a lot, like Urban 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:58.960 Explorers will will go and take videos of them. But 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.000 a lot of these dead malls, as they're called, are 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.600 actually just limping along kind of on life support, like 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.440 the one he saw in Kentucky. Yeah, I feel like 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.600