1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Guess what, Mengo, what's that? Well, all right, I know 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: you love shopping malls, so I'm sure you've noticed these people, 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: but you know the people who like to exercise by 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: walking back and forth through the mall. Sure, mall walkers. 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: It's like half the country's grandparents at least, and as 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned, it's especially popular with senior citizens. But they're 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: actually not the only ones doing this. There was this 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen report from the CDC that shows that 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: shopping malls are now the second most popular place to 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,279 Speaker 1: go for a walk, just behind neighborhoods. How weird is this? 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: It's weird, But why is the CDC doing reports on 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: mall walking? Well, this isn't a small report either. It's 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: actually fifty six pages long and I'm reading every word 15 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: of it is just riveting. But to be fair, taking 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: walks is a way to prevent certain diseases. And the 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: CDC is actually the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: And I bet you forgot that silent p at the 19 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: end of the CDC. There's one funny thing that I learned. 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: It actually turns out that most mall walkers don't actually 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: shop at the mall. At most they might buy a 22 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: coffee at the food court or something like that. But 23 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: according to the CDC report, they really just want the camaraderie, 24 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, to spend some time strolling and socializing. And 25 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: that actually puts mall walkers right in line with the 26 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: original idea for shopping malls. So the architect who designed 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the first mall in America's name is Victor Gruen. He 28 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: actually envisioned the mall as a place to quote find 29 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: opportunities for social life and recreation in a protected pedestrian environment. 30 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: That's interesting. So by that measure, despite not buying anything, 31 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: mall walkers are really the only ones doing mall's right. Yeah. 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: I don't know about from the mall manager's perspective, but 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: definitely from Gruin's. And he clearly had more in mind 34 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: for shopping malls than what they would ultimately become. But 35 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: what exactly did he envision, why didn't it work out? 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: And most importantly, is there still a chance that his 37 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: high hopes for shopping malls could still be fulfilled? Those 38 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: are just a few of the questions we'll try to 39 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: answer today. So let's dive in a their podcast. Listeners, 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and it's 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: always I'm joined by my good friend mangesh Hot Ticketer 42 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: and on the other side of that soundproof glass, just 43 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: tucking into a feast of food Court staples. That's our 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: friend and producer Tristan McNeil. I gotta be honest, I'm 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: a little jealous of what I'm seeing over here. I know, 46 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: Mrs Fields. There's a cinnamon bun from Cinnabon, a pretzel 47 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 1: from Anti Ads, and a huge orange Julius to wash 48 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 1: it all. Man, it's like a trip to the mall 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: in food form. But from what it sounds like, that 50 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: wasn't exactly Victor grew his vision of them all. No, 51 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: I don't think so. But to understand what his vision 52 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: did entail, we should first talk about who Gruin was 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: and where he came from. So he was born in 54 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: nineteen oh three in Vienna, Austria. He grew up in 55 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: a middle class Jewish family, fell in love with the 56 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: city's thriving art scene, and this was at a pretty 57 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: young age. So in the nineteen twenties he spent many 58 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: of his evenings performing satirical theater at various cafes, and 59 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: then during the day he studied architecture and this was 60 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: at the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts, so it was 61 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: actually the same school that had rejected Adolf Hitler just 62 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: a few years earlier. Just a little fun factor growing, 63 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: I feel like too good for Hitler should be on 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: all their t shirts. Well. Unfortunately, though, the Academy wasn't 65 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: the only point of overlap between Victor Gruin's life and 66 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: Adolf Hitler. So when Nazi Germany annexed Austria back in 67 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, grew And knew it was time to 68 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: leave his country behind, and weirdly, he left the same 69 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: week as Sigmund Freud. I keep throwing in these little 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: side facts about all these people that I like them. Well, 71 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: leaving was easier said than done, so Grewin turned to 72 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: one of his theater buddies for help with the escape, 73 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: and it's actually kind of remarkable. His friend, dressed up 74 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: as a Nazi stormtrooper, escorted Grewin and his wife to 75 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: the airport and then made sure they were allowed to 76 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: board a plane to Zurich. So from there the couple 77 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: made their way to England, where they found passage on 78 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: his ocean liner and traveled over to New York City. 79 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: So Growin later looked back on this journey and he 80 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: said that he had arrived quote with an architect's degree, 81 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: eight dollars and no English. Pretty tough. Yeah, I mean, 82 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: that's an incredible story. So how do you make it work? Well? 83 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: He once again turned to the art scene. He joins 84 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: up with some other German immigrants and together they formed 85 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: what they called the Refugee Artist Group, where Grewin did 86 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: set design. So the group caught the attention of some 87 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: big names in the music business. This included Al Jolson 88 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: Irving Berlin, and they ended up helping them with their 89 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: songs and all of that help actually paid off. So 90 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: the next summer the group was a the Stage, an 91 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 1: original Broadway show, and this actually ran for eleven weeks straight, 92 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: which is just remarkable to think about this guy arriving 93 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: with eight dollars and howevery much longer later, the guy's 94 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: putting on a Broadway show that's running for eleven weeks. 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: It's not bad, you know. So so things were going 96 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: well for Grwin, but his architecture career had you know, 97 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: suffered since coming to America. Then one afternoon in midtown, 98 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: grew In bumped into an old friend of his from Vienna, 99 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: was this guy named Ludwig Letterer. So Ludwig wanted to 100 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: open this leather good store on Fifth Avenue, and he 101 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: asked Grewing to help him design it, and so Grewin agreed, 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: and what he ultimately came up with with something of 103 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: a game changer for American store design. So rather than 104 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: build the entrance flush, you know, with the street like 105 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: all the other shops in the area, Grewin actually made 106 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: this recess like arcade style entryway with the tall glass 107 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: cases on either side to sort of draw in the customers. 108 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: So once they came inside, these guests were just dazzled 109 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: by these faux marble floors, a green glass ceiling, a 110 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: slew of bright spotlights that sort of reflected these display cases, 111 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: and you know, the result was a store that felt 112 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: decidedly modern and unlike anything else on Fifth Avenue or 113 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: really American retail in general. So it's kind of hard 114 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: to imagine now, but customers and critics ate up this 115 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: new design, and as a result of this, Gruin was 116 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: swamped with job offers. I mean he was going to 117 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: these upscale design stores all around the city and beyond 118 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: getting these offers. So obviously designing these high end boutiques 119 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: and then going to big, boxy shopping malls seems like 120 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: quite a leap, and not exactly an upward one. Maybe so, 121 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: But keep in mind that Gruin was commissioned to design 122 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: the country's first indoor shopping mall in nineteen fifty two 123 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: and it opened in nineteen fifty six. So prior to that, 124 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: malls as we know them really didn't exist, so there 125 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: wasn't any stigma that we might associate with them today. 126 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: So tell me about the revolutionary part about what Grewing 127 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: came up with. Like, what was the shopping scene like 128 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: in America pre mall? Well, it was, you know, mainly 129 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: mail order catalogs and department stores for the most part. 130 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: Outdoor shopping centers started to catch on in the nineteen twenties, 131 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: but they were basically just strip malls as we think 132 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: of them now, like a bunch of different stores stuck 133 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: together and just happened to share a parking lot. So 134 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: Gruen's big idea was to put all of these stores 135 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: and walkways under one roof, and then you'd have the 136 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: addition of central air and heating to make this complex 137 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: sustainable year round. And that last part was especially important 138 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: given the location of Gruen's first mall. This was the 139 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: Southdale Shopping Center and Adena, Minnesota, just outside of Minneapolis, 140 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: where the winters are obviously frigid. Exactly, I don't think 141 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: people would want to be walking around in those parking 142 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: lots in the cold of winter, and so the project 143 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: grew unsigned on for was meant to address the residents 144 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: demand for a temperate place to be able to shop, 145 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: and one where they wouldn't have to brave the cold 146 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: if they wanted to visit a different store after they've 147 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: gone to the first one. Yeah, that makes a ton 148 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: of sense. So what about this bigger idea he had 149 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: of them all being kind of the social hub. Well, 150 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: a lot of that was just in how he arranged 151 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: the interior. So just as an example, most shopping centers 152 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: of the era were on a single level. So you know, 153 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: you think about the number of stores in Southdale, it 154 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: was actually meant to house seventy two stores plus these 155 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: two big anchor department stores. So making your way from 156 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: one end to the other would have felt, you know, 157 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: like forever just to get there, so instead Grewing opted 158 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: for this two story design. They were linked by escalators, 159 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: of course, and now we're all envisioning kind of the 160 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: modern shopping center. So not only did this break up 161 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: that monotony and make for a much easier trip back 162 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: to the car, but it also ensured that people would 163 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: circulate better, have more opportunities to socialize. But probably the 164 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: most prominent example of his people first design is what 165 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: he put in the middle of it. It was kind 166 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: of an indoor garden court, I guess they called it, 167 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: complete with the skylight, a goldfish pond, towering live trees, balconies, 168 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: hanging plants, like all of this other stuff, including a 169 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: bustling cafe. There was even a twenty one ft tall 170 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: cage filled with brightly colored exotic birds. And so it 171 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: was basically Gruin's ode to the European piazzas that he 172 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: had grown up within Vienna, and he wanted to bring 173 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: some of that old world European charm to the American 174 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: shopping scene, which he kind of saws characterized by urban 175 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: sprawl and tacky design. So you fast forward a few 176 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: years later where in nineteen sixty at this point, and 177 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: Gruen wrote a book in which he outlined his hope 178 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: and belief that the malls could really be more like 179 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: a town square. And you know Greek Agora's of the Past, 180 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: which is not exactly what we think of malls today, right, 181 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: definitely not so. When Southdale opened in October of nineteen 182 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: fifty six, it was met with this glowing praise from shoppers, 183 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: as well as dram list from every publication from Newsweek 184 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: to the New York Times, the Women's Wear Daily. In fact, 185 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: my favorite review though, comes from Time, which heralded Gruin's 186 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: mall as quote, the pleasure dome with parking. You know, 187 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: it's just it's such a great quote. But with all 188 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: that said, there was at least one person who absolutely 189 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: detested the Southdale Shopping Mall, and that was none other 190 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: than the legendary architect Frank Lloyd. Right. So, a month 191 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: after the mall opened, and you know, it's gotten all 192 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: this national press, right made the pilgrimage to Minnesota to 193 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: see it for himself, and he was not impressed at all. 194 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: So after his visit, right Penn the scathing article for 195 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: the Star Tribune writing, quote, what is this a railroad 196 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: station or a bus station? You've got a garden court 197 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: that has all the evils of the village street and 198 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: none of its charm. I love that the way he 199 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: really criticized it was by calling it a railroad station. 200 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: You really really burned them with that. So I'm guessing 201 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: even in the minorities, since you know, every mall seems 202 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: to have cred most of his design from Gruin's, I mean, 203 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: somebody must have liked these, right, oh absolutely. I mean 204 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: the design was such a success that it became really 205 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: the de facto blueprint for indoor malls throughout the rest 206 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. And Gruin embraced all the love 207 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: at first, and for about a decade after the south 208 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: Dale Mall opened, he gave speeches, he wrote books about 209 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: his creation, and really kind of pondered what he hoped 210 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: it would do for American society. But sadly though Gruin's 211 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: view of his work soured in the nineties, sixties and 212 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: in the seventies, is more malls began to dominate the landscape. 213 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: I mean they popped up everywhere, and worst of all, 214 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: these copycat malls were built with tweak designs aimed at 215 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: maximizing profit rather than, you know, more fostering that sense 216 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: of community. So he even started to see malls that 217 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: he designed himself in a new light. So when he 218 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: visited some later in life, he wrote of the quote 219 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: severe emotional old shock, heat experience, and the ugliness and 220 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: discomfort of the land wasting parking lot that sprang up 221 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: around me. So it definitely changed the way he thought 222 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: about them, and it was a bit disillusioned, and he 223 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: decided to move home to Vienna. But when he got there, 224 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: he was actually heartbroken to discover that the new shopping 225 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: mall had been built just south of the old Vienna 226 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: and that it was driving independent shops out of business. 227 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: And as Malcolm Gladwell put it in a piece for 228 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: The New York Or, quote Victor Gruin invented the shopping 229 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: mall in order to make America more like Vienna. He 230 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: ended up making Vienna more like America. That's awful, But 231 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a little confused it. It It sounds like 232 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: Grewin really hated those giant mall parking lots, so were 233 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: though something that was added later and and not a 234 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: part of his original design. Yeah, that's actually pretty right. 235 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: I mean, Gruin's mall designs included a much more modest 236 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: parking lot than the endless stretches of asphalt that we're 237 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: used to associating with malls today. And in fact, when 238 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: Gruin first drew the plans for Southdale, he placed it 239 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: in the center of this four hundred and sixty three 240 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: acre plot, and to fill all that surrounding space, he 241 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: drew up designs for apartment buildings and schools and a 242 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: park and actually even a man made lake. But unfortunately 243 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: none of that ever came to pass, and instead the 244 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: space was used to make this massive parking lot. And 245 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: of course future malls followed suit, and very few of 246 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: them ever adapted Gruen's multi use approach to these developments. 247 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: That that is a shame. You know. The whole story 248 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of what happened with the inventor 249 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 1: of the TV file of Farnsworth. You know, he was 250 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: another guy who saw his invention grow up in a 251 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: way he wasn't expecting and grew to kind of hate 252 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: it over time. Yeah, it is weird to kind of 253 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: resent the thing that's held up as the biggest achievement 254 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: of your life right for both these and in Gruen's case, 255 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: he actually took his distaste even further than Farnsworth by 256 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: completely disowning his creation. So, two years before his death, 257 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: which was in nineteen eighty, grew And gave a speech 258 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: in London and he washed his hands of malls entirely. 259 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: Here's what he told the crowd. I'm often called the 260 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: father of the shopping mall. I would like to take 261 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: this opportunity to disclaim paternity once and for all. I 262 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: refuse to pay alimony to those bastard developments. They destroyed 263 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: our city. Okay, well, and now that we've unspoiled the 264 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: long and sad history behind the birth of shopping malls, 265 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: where do you say we stepped inside of one and 266 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: take a closer look at some of the behind the 267 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: scenes tricks that developers used to keep the customer shopping. 268 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: Sounds good, but before we get to that, let's take 269 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: a quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and 270 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about all the sort of devious design tricks 271 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: that shopping malls used to empty our wallets. But to 272 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: be clear, none of the stuff we're about to talk 273 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: about came from Victor Gruin, as you can probably guess 274 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: by now, he was fundamentally opposed to any design always 275 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: aimed at manipulating customers into spending more money. I think 276 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: he would have felt like he was betraying that sense 277 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: of community that he was hoping to instill in these malls. Yeah, 278 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: but there's another dark layer to the story because despite 279 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: his principled approach to design, Grown still wound up having 280 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: a shady mall tactic named after him. So, you know, 281 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: sometimes you get disoriented in a mall or a big store, 282 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: like you're just walking through this giant maze and you 283 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: kind of lose track of where you are in the 284 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: building or how long you've been there. That's known as 285 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: Gruin transfer, and Grown would have hated the name, but 286 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: the effect is a real thing, and stores actually put 287 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: a lot of effort and thought into how to best 288 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: trigger this reaction in their customers. So Victor Gruen might 289 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: have wanted malls that we're easy to navigate, but future 290 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: designers learned that confused shoppers actually spend more money, and 291 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: that's why so many malls have these maze like layouts 292 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: with difficult to find exits, and while you're wandering around. 293 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: Other carefully designed, coordinated features kind of do their part 294 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: to keep you feeling up, eat and engage. You can 295 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: think about things like music that's relaxing and played through 296 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: the pipe speakers or um eye catching entrance displays. And 297 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: the more time you spend in this mall days, the 298 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: more likely you are to make impulse buyes. Right, Like, 299 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: an article on New Scientists describes it as being quote 300 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: confused into a state of unplanned consumption. I call this 301 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: the Ikea effect. I think, and and and all. This 302 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: makes sense, And I get why they called it after Gruin, 303 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: but you know, because he helped build these malls. But 304 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: actually help me out with that last part, the word transfer. Yeah, 305 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: so what's actually being transferred is the desire to have 306 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: a specific item. So you go to the mall to 307 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: buy a sweater, and it's only a sweater that you're 308 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: looking for, But if the designers play their cards right, 309 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: you will be so dazzled by the time you get 310 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: to the store that your desire for a sweater will 311 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: already have been transferred to a bunch of different items 312 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: that you never planned on buying. Okay, that makes sense, 313 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: but I mean I'm still curious if grew and didn't 314 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: come up with the different sales tricks that we find 315 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: in malls now than who is responsible for that? Like 316 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: it was just mall architects who followed him or what 317 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's where some of the ideas came from 318 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: and new methods were added over the years, certainly, but 319 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the common features and malls actually originated 320 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: with one of Gruen's contemporaries, This Fellows storefront designer. His 321 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: name was A. Alfred Todman, and he goes on to 322 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: be a huge mall mogul. In the late nineteen fifties, 323 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: Todman followed Gruen's lead by building his own indoor shopping 324 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: mall in California, and over the next fifty years or so, 325 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: he just kept on building. So he actually passes away 326 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: in two thousand fifteen at the age of but his 327 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: company is still going strong with twenty four malls spread 328 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: across eleven different states plus Puerto Rico, South Korea, and China, 329 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: and each of them incorporate special designs, all developed by 330 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: Todman over the years. Alright, so can can you give 331 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: me some examples of what these designs are? Yeah? I 332 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: mean this is gonna sound a little hyperbolic, which I 333 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: guess the kind of is. But a lot of Todman's 334 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: innovations were sort of like perversions of what Gruin had designed. So, 335 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about grew and wanting this two 336 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: level mall. It was so that people could circulate easier 337 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: and bump into more people. But Tobman kind of took 338 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: that trick and moved the escalators to the ends of 339 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: the buildings, so you wouldn't meet up in the center, 340 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: but rather you'd have to make the full loop around 341 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: the mall and buy more as a result, And Tobin's 342 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: mall has also applied the circulation theory to the exteriors. 343 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: He was actually the first to put a circular road 344 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: around them all and add a bunch of extra entrances 345 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: so that shoppers could easily get to any part of 346 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: the building. Oh, it's interesting. And that bit about the 347 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: moving of the escalators, I mean, it's such a good 348 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: example of how a simple tweak can change the focus 349 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: from you know, customer comfort to something that really more 350 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: benefits the sellers. And I'm curious, did you find any 351 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: other cases like that? Yeah? So another good example is 352 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: what Tobman did with the lighting. So he kept all 353 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: the skylights from Gruen's design, but he made them recess 354 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: so the sunlight would never directly affect the storefronts. And 355 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: he also added these tiny lights around the skylights so 356 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: that when the sun started to go down, customers wouldn't 357 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: take the shift in lighting as this queue that it 358 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: was time to leave. And uh, speaking of visibility, Topman 359 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: insisted on using transparent handrails in his malls so that 360 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: you could always see the stores around you, regardless of 361 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: what level you were at. I mean, apparently it was 362 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: he was trying to battle something called threshold resistance, which 363 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: I guess refers to both the physical and psychological barriers 364 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: that might prevent a customer from entering a store, Like 365 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: they could block your view and keep you from seeing 366 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: a store in the upper level that you might otherwise 367 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: go inside. I guess that that's part of it. Well, 368 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of psychology, we were talking about music earlier, 369 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: and I have to mention this weird fact that came 370 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: across this week. So, according to a two thousand eleven 371 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: report from Stanford, all the malls in America put together 372 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: consume more than a gig a lot of electricity every 373 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: month just from playing that awful background music that's supposed 374 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: to make you shop more. And when you do the 375 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: math on this, that energy usage comes out to three 376 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 1: thousand metric tons of C O two added to the 377 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: atmosphere each year just from this open music. Yeah, I mean, 378 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: I guess not only as an annoying and manipulative it's 379 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: also contributing to climate change. Well. To be fair, human 380 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: society admits around thirty giga tons of greenhouse gases per year, 381 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: so it's not like three thousand tons from the mall 382 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: is doing that much damage. But I just thought that 383 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: that was interesting. And you know, of course, once you 384 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: factor in all the energy that malls used to heat, 385 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: cool and light these massive interiors around the clock, their 386 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: contribution actually starts to look a bit more significant when 387 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: you put it in, you know, as a whole. I guess, yeah, 388 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure. I Actually, Gabe was telling me about this 389 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: one mall he was in Kentucky where there were only 390 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: like two or three actual stores, and the entire complex 391 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: still open like every other one had been shuttered. But 392 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: the A C. The lights, the escalators, the music, you know, 393 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: all of that was still going on throughout the building. 394 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: And that's actually not a one off thing. There are 395 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: hundreds of malls like that across the country. I feel 396 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: like you see them on YouTube a lot, like Urban 397 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: Explorers will will go and take videos of them. But 398 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: a lot of these dead malls, as they're called, are 399 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: actually just limping along kind of on life support, like 400 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: the one he saw in Kentucky. Yeah, I feel like 401 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: we should probably talk a little bit about why that 402 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: is in the state of malls you know today, But 403 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: let's take one more quick break and then we'll get 404 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: back to that. Welcome back to part time genius. Okay, 405 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: So it's been sixty three years since the country got 406 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: its first indoor shopping mall, and during that time as 407 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: many as hundred more malls have been built in the US, 408 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: sometimes growing up more than twice the raid of the population. 409 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: And you can tell by those numbers that America's malls 410 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: have actually had a great run. But I want to ask, 411 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 1: how are they holding up in the digital age? Like, 412 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: do the next sixty years look as promising as the first? Oh? 413 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: Not even close. I mean it's it's not. Yeah. I 414 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: was gonna say, thanks for that tough question. I mean, 415 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: those fifteen hundred malls you mentioned, we're now down to 416 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: about and you know, if you ask a lot of analysts, 417 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: they project that hundreds more will close over the next 418 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: decade alone. So what do you think is behind that decline? 419 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: Is it just, you know, something predictable like online shopping 420 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: or what is it? Alright, Well, maybe cover your ears, 421 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: because predictable or not, the rise of online shopping has 422 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: definitely done some serious damage to the mall industry. And 423 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: that said, the demise of brick and mortar retail has 424 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: been greatly exaggerated though, because according to the Atlantic, it's 425 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: actually growing at a rate of three percent per year. 426 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: Even e commerce space companies like Amazon and Apple, they've 427 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: doubled down on the physical retail game, which is something 428 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: they definitely wouldn't be doing if brick and mortar retail 429 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: was truly on its way out. So why are malls 430 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: closing then? Why is it so desperate? Well, to put 431 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: it simply, our country devotes way way too much space 432 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: to retail stores. So forty eight square feet per person, 433 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: to be exact, that is twice as much retail space 434 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: per capita than any other country in the world. And 435 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: a lot more than that in some cases, four times 436 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: more than Japan and France, six times more than England, 437 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: nine times more than Italy, eleven times more than Germany. 438 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep going. I've got fifty seven more 439 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: of these. But a retail analyst told CNBC that America 440 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: is quote the most overstored place in the world, and 441 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: when you look at the numbers, it's hard to disagree 442 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: with us. So obviously this isn't a new development. We've 443 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: been hearing about urban sprawl for years now, and it 444 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: was a big part of why I grewin turned his 445 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: back on malls entirely in the seventies. So why is 446 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 1: the rug being pulled out now? Like, did it just 447 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: take a while for the effects of all that retail 448 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: expansion to manifest? Yeah, I mean again, the arrival of 449 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: online shopping was kind of the tipping point in in 450 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: all of this, and being able to shop at home 451 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: really shine a spotlight on just how out of control 452 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: retail construction had grown. So suddenly you had all these 453 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: empty stores, malls without customers. So we may have just 454 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: started seeing the effects recently, but the so called retail 455 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: upon elipse has actually been a long time coming. I mean, 456 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: the big question now is what to do with all 457 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: the unneeded malls that we already have. And in most cases, 458 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: tearing down a failed mall is considered too expensive to 459 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: be a real option. But leaving them there to just decay, 460 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: like that's not an appealing strategy either, Right, Well, it's 461 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: not like all the remaining malls are going to close. 462 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: From what I've read this week, the three hundred or 463 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: so of the top earning malls like they're gonna be 464 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: fine in long term. And those are the fanciest, top 465 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: tier malls that sit in wealthy areas and still bring 466 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: in a lot of money. But the other eight hundred 467 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: or so lower tier malls, you know, you might have 468 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: to get creative with, like if if they want to 469 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: avoid being those sort of YouTube spectacles that that that 470 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier. Yeah, and you know, from 471 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: what I've seen, that's exactly what a lot of them 472 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: are doing. Some of them is just being straight up repurposed, 473 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: either as apartment complexes, churches, or schools. I even read 474 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: about one old mall that's been transformed into this enormous 475 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: indoor paintball park, which that could kind of sound, yeah, 476 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: but plenty of other malls are being inverted into what 477 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: are called lifestyle centers, So that's kind of a more 478 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: hip or more upscale take on a mall, with specialty 479 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: stores like Creighton Barrel or Pottery Barn in place of 480 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: the more traditional department store anchors like a Sears or 481 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: a Macy's. So they also focus more on entertainment options 482 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: than regular malls do. So in addition to stores and restaurants, 483 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: you might find life music venues, a bowling alley, fine 484 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: art galleries. Sometimes it built in movie theater, and a 485 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: lot of these lifestyle centers are open air too, with 486 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: like these facades that make stores look like row houses, 487 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: so you get some of that main street field to them. Yeah, 488 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: I mean I've been to a few of those before that. 489 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: There was one being built in Dirham years ago, and 490 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, like, you don't have to build a 491 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: mall that looks like an old tobacco warehouse when you've 492 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: got these old tobacco warehouses just around the corner. But 493 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: exactly what I do like about this Manufacturer downtown field 494 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: is that it's kind of a throwback to what Victor 495 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: Gruen wanted for malls. In the fifties, like he wanted 496 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: to bring a touch of culture and character to the 497 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: suburbs by just giving people a nice place to gather 498 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: and socialize and of course shop as well. Yeah. I 499 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: think that's right, And actually in the book I quoted earlier, 500 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: grew and wrote that quote. By affording opportunities for social 501 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: life and recreation in a protected, potestrian environment, by incorporating 502 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: civic and educational facilities, shopping centers can fill an existing void. 503 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: That's while the classed up look of a lifestyle center 504 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: might seem like the first time malls have come close 505 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: to delivering on that promise, I'd actually argue that even 506 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: the crasses most commercial malls still did manage to fill 507 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: an important void for a lot of people. So what 508 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: do you mean by that, Well, think back to when 509 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: malls were at their peak of the nineteen eighties and 510 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: even the early nineties. So back then there was really 511 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: some social benefit to going to the mall. You think 512 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: about rural and suburban areas, there just weren't enough people 513 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: to have the kind of daily interactions that you know 514 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: so commonplace in cities. So in that sense, malls were 515 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: a way to get people into close for proximity to 516 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: one another really more prompted this meaningful chance encounters for 517 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: people who might not have met otherwise. And you know, 518 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: aside from accessibility to humans, there's also accessibility to products 519 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: that malls provided. If you think back in the dark 520 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: days before the internet, just so scared to even think about, 521 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, someone in a place like Minnesota, they would 522 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: have very limited selection of clothing and books and music 523 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: to choose from, and and any kind of international products 524 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: would have been next to impossible. But with these malls 525 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: coming along, you know, suddenly products from all over the 526 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: country and all over the world really were available under 527 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: one gigantic roof, which is a good point. And speaking 528 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: of mall on nostalgia and how different it is from 529 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: a world where we're getting marketed to from our phones 530 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: and our computers and just non stuff. I have a 531 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: quote here that I wanted to share from an author 532 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: named Ian bo Ghost and and he wrote a great 533 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: article for The Atlantic that kind of served as an 534 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: elegy for shopping mall culture. And this is what he writes, quote, America, 535 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: days of hating them all are numbered? When it gets 536 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: replaced by Apple town squares, Walmart, supercenters and the online 537 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: offline slurry of an ever rising Amazon. We will miss 538 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: those zoos of capitalism, those prisons of commerce where consumerism 539 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: roared and swelled but inevitably remained contained. I guess you 540 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: don't know what you've got till it's gone. Well, we 541 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: can't do it on the past forever. So what do 542 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: you say we head into the fact off and share 543 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: a few of the crazier mall stories we found this week. 544 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: All right, let's do it. All right, I'll get us started. 545 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: Let's see. Well, remember how I said that America has 546 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: twice as much retail space per person compared to the 547 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: rest of the world. Well, our record is even worse 548 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to parking spaces. In total, the United 549 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: States has roughly two billion parking spots and only about 550 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty million cars to park in them. 551 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: That evens out to eight parking spots for every car 552 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: in the country. And one of the biggest contributors to 553 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: this over supply of parking is, of course, the giant 554 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: parking lot that circles the thousand plus shopping malls that 555 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: we have been talking about today. In fact, there are 556 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: more than twelve and a half thousand at the Mall 557 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: of America alone, which is so weird. Anyway, there's one 558 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: person who always comes out ahead at malls, no matter 559 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: what the circumstances, and that is Santa Claus. So according 560 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: to a magazine you might be familiar with mental floss. 561 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: Being a mall Santa is a salaried position and can 562 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: net first timers around ten thousand dollars per six weeks season, 563 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: and if you're a Santa with a little bit more 564 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: experience under your belt, you might actually be able to 565 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: earn closer to thirty thousand dollars per season. Of course, 566 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: any would be Santa's listening should keep in mind most 567 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: malls typically required their Santa's to have natural beards, so 568 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: no false is allowed. Okay, all right, well here is 569 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: a kind of a weird one. So malls may be 570 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: on the decline in the US, but the business is 571 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: still booming in many Asian countries, particularly in China. The 572 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: only problem is that a lot of the men there 573 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: don't seem to enjoy shopping nearly as much as their 574 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: wives do. So to get around this, some Chinese malls 575 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: have begun offering complimentary lounges specifically for board husbands who 576 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: would have rather stayed home. The name for these facilities 577 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: literally translates to husband cloak room, which I kind of love. 578 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: It sounds like they offer way more amenities than the 579 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: average code check. I mean this varies from all the mall, 580 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: but the lounges typically include you know, these comforts like WiFi, snacks, 581 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: big TVs, and of course comfortable chairs. I love that, 582 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: And I love the idea of like a wife dropping 583 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,239 Speaker 1: off their husband and claiming a tag and then like, 584 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: maybe we're getting to come get them at the end 585 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: of the day exactly. So this is a pretty odd fact. 586 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,959 Speaker 1: Six malls in southern California now feature funeral home chios 587 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: where shoppers can pick out coffins are earned and plan 588 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: their own funerals. Apparently they even have a cremation earned 589 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: with the l A Dodgers logo on it. So so far, 590 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: the funeral industry seems to view this whole thing is 591 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: a major win in terms of reaching the audience where 592 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: they're at. There's this one director of International Cemetery Creation 593 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: and Funeral Association who said, quote, nobody gets up on 594 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: a Saturday morning and says, gee, it's a nice day. 595 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: I wonder if I can go out and get myself 596 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 1: a burial plot. But if they're surrounded by happy, lively 597 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: people and maybe clutching a bag of Mrs Field's cookies, 598 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: the thought is they'll feel differently. I'm not sure that 599 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: I agree with that, but it is pretty interesting and 600 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: I guess there's a reason they're doing it. But all right, 601 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: with the risk of seeming obsessed here, I'm going to 602 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: steer us back to the exciting world of mall parking lots, 603 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: but for good reason. Here because I want to share 604 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: a tip that I came across for how to easily 605 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: find an open space. According to mathematician Joe Pagano, all 606 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: you need to do is find in how close to 607 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: the mall entrance, get about twenty full spaces in your sight, 608 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: and then just stop and wait six minutes. I love 609 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: the idea of just stopping like that's not gonna upset 610 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: anyone behind you, But why six that's According to Joe, 611 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: the average shopper spends a hundred and twenty minutes in 612 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: the mall. So if you divide a hundred and twenty 613 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: minutes by the twenties spaces, you've zeroed in on then 614 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: you get six minutes, and that's how long it should 615 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: take for a shopper to return to one of those spaces. 616 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: So if you follow Joe's method, that should be the 617 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: max amount of time you'll spend hunting for a spot. Well, 618 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: I do like that one, and I'm gonna have to 619 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: try it out the next time I'm craving and range. Julius, 620 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: I I think you end up with the trophy for 621 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: this round. Nicely done, well, thank you so much. All Right, well, 622 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: I think that does it for today's Part Time Genius 623 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: from Gabe, Tristan Manguesh and me. Thanks so much for listening. 624 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: We'll be back soon with another episode. Part Time Genius 625 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 626 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 627 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 628 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: The critic in the p